A loss of humanity seems to be more related to crossing the rubicon rather than being related to being primaris. In the vast majority of recent novels the primaris are shown to be more human than their first born brethren, often annoying their fellow space marines as they criticize their lack of empathy and humanity, this is seen prominently with the primaris that join the dark angels and flesh tearers. It is also worth noting that in the end of the Swords of Calth, Uriel is able to regain his humanity, and lose the disorientation of crossing the rubicon, albeit after a very intense life or death experience.
i would like to see the primaris have an inherrant flaw like shorter lifespan as a trade off, rather than simply being better marines, there should be a cost, like with the thunderwarriors and the custodes (thunderwarriors have shorter life span, but are larger, more aggressive and brutal, custodes have a long creation process which makes them impractical for use as an imperium wide standing army). Maybe lack of humanity and empathy will be their weakness? and strength at the same time? still i would like to see a cost to being bigger, stronger and more resistant to corruption, it would make them more interesting.
@@samuelbutts467 I agree that the primaris should have some kind of unforeseen drawback. But I would prefer if the drawback wasn’t their humanity. Having more human space marines makes them much more compelling characters, as they have to struggle between trying to be a good person while also dealing with the horrors of 40k. The humanity of the Primarchs is what makes them such great characters, and I think that can also be applied to the primaris space marines.
It’s kind of like the marines are re set to factory settings and have to rediscover what it means to be a defender of humanity and not just a weapon of the imperium
I think it wouldn't really affect New initiates as they're already at factory default and need relearn humanity. The Rubicon, on the other hand, just lost theirs.
It is a take (An opinion or fantasy). And it is a good one. Your objection has been overruled by the high lords and the original statement stands as it is.@@MGrey-qb5xz
I rmemeber a moment in the Ultramarines books when they come across a ruined, burned out city. Uriel and Posanius find a ruined store with a makeshift barricade and behind it, a group of corpses. Likely a family. Uriel states the they must have been trying to hide. Posanius rhetorically asks "Why didn't they fight?" to which Uriel replies "They couldn't. they aren't trained and aren't armed. What would you do in their situation?" Posanius instantly replies "I would fight and kill anything threatening me and my people." Uriel looks at him sadly and thinks "Yes, as an astartes that is your instinct. But as a human with loved ones to care for. You wouldn't" It's really shocking that Uriel, the space marine who empathised with mortals and their struggles, would actually think this.
"Sire, the entire Iron Hands Chapter, after receiving our Primaris have.... vanished." Meanwhile, at Istvaan Dropsite Massacre M31.566: *Time Rift Opens Up, Furious Primaris Iron Hands Tear through the Rift, their technology now able to achieve perfect time travel* "FATHER! OUR FLESH IS NO LONGER WEAK! WE ARE COMING!
*This diversion of never before seen assault of nearly 1,000 massive Primaris Marines caused both a wake of destruction achieved three things: One, it allowed a breakaway on the front and right flank that allowed access to Lorgar's inner retinue. Two, it fatefully distracted Ferrus Manus; so enamored by the sight of his perfected children cleaving through the traitorous foes that even his sharp mind was distracted from the duel with Fulgrim, whose own strike was indeed for the neck of Manus, but even Fulgrim was expecting a block from his ferocious brother... it was with shock, horror, surprise, perverse glee and pleasure that once and for all Fulgrim retreated from his own body and the sword took over, and lastly: it proved the proof of concept that the Iron Hands did indeed create perfect time travel.*
*Upon retreat, Corax was certain to retrieve the geneseed of one of these strange Primaris in order to present to his father the Emperor, himself not sure how deep the traitor's perfidy dwelled. With much effort, he finally made it to the Emperor of Mankind, and the conversation went thus:*
Corax: "Father, look upon my mind and this geneseed I bear, I believe it can be used to rebuild our shattered legions." Emperor: *Clears throat* "Err, yeah, I have a bunch of tools for that in my hidden lab beneath the Himalyzians. Go check it out." Corax: "At once, Father." *Vanishes* Emperor: *Leans over to Valdor* "When he dies in that murder vault, retrieve that geneseed of his, it might be useful." Valdor: "Sire, that was Corax... the one you made the perfect infiltrator?" Emperor: "Shit... Uhh, send that other sneaky one after him to steal it, then." Alpharius: "Already on it." Emperor: "What?" *Looks over* Valdor, who was Alpharius all along: "I said, I am already on it, brother." Emperor, who was Omegon all along: "Oh." END
Spoilers Absolutely. She was trying to hire a Kroot Warsphere's worth of mercenaries (I forget exactly why, probably to defend/evacuate her homeworld from what I do remember). There was basically a "I stuck my neck out for you, not again" by the Primaris Lieutenant when they encountered each other on the Warsphere and she was killed.
The funny thing is, this is an observation of the first born becoming primaris, they become a bit colder, a bit more logical and tactical, but contraversely, the marines who start off as Primaris seem to veer in the opposite direction and have a bit too much humanity and are considered by the first born to be perhaps naive and inexperienced. Also, this is the experience given from the perspective of an Ultra Marine, we'd have to see how it effects those of other chapters. It is entirely possible that crossing the rubicon merely enhances the core personality traits of the gene seed of their Primarch father. So like UMs would be more logical, Space Wolves more feral, etc. Let us not forget that the HH Guilliman was quite like this, cold, logical, tactical, sure he had humanity, but he was also a big picture type of guy. Another idea is that crossing the rubicon might make them more like the Emperor as he exhibited tons of these traits before being put on the chair. We need a larger sample size of experience to truly see.
Agreed. That's how I see this one. This is making an Ultramarine just more of a big-picture thinker. More like his Primarch. But he recognizes the problem, which is in itself a sign that he simply needs time to adjust for his new-found broader perspective.
Im curious to see how the Salamanders primaris upgrades to their first born turn out if they ever choose to go through with it. If Vulkan's care for humanity was to be amplified? i really dont know how that would look like.
I suspect that Space Marines (or at least some chapters) are taught to avoid self-introspection for so long, that once they HAVE to perform an evaluation after becoming Primaris, they have no way to measure how it has or hasn't changed them. Guilliman asks who Uriel was before, and Uriel doesn't really know.
Uriel once nearly fell to his own death to catch a guardsmen commander that had been trapped in the warp so long his body was withered and near useless. The commander fell from a cliff they were scaling and Uriel cursed himself for the brief moment where he considered letting the man go to save himself.
Honestly it’s hilarious the see the Blood Angels set themselves up for a 2nd Sangunius. Dante is as much a piece of the Blood Angels as the Primarch ever was. Perhaps even more so in the current Dark Imperium. His inevitable death will shatter the chapter so obviously it won’t be permanent leading to an even longer tenure as Chapter Master 😑
@@roboticfish317 "I WILL DIE AS DANTE! I WILL DIE AS DANTE!" -Dante, desperately pleading while fighting off the black rage. Blood Angels must like torturing this poor bastard.
Yea so stupid, mephiston was like “if you do it you will die” bro dante will probably die soon anyway he’s over 1500yrs old and his body is failing him...
A theory: Maybe the change to Primaris just amplifies qualities of the gene seed. Ultramarines were always very tactically minded, not inhuman but tactical, maybe the change just made them tactical to the point of inhumanity towards the guardsmen? Maybe an interesting way of looking at it
It is all the Gene seed of the original Astartes mixed into one. So they would have the strengths and maybe even some of the flaws of all of the First Chapters. Tactical, kind, pragmatic, efficient, ruthless and cunning, cold and calculated. Because the Primarchs are derived from the Emperor and the Astartes derived from the Primarchs, the Primaris are then closer to the Emperor that any one Primarch or Astarte. The Primaris that are Pure Primaris rather than converted are much kinder than their converted counterparts but are nonetheless ruthless, efficient and calculating.
That is what people have been saying for decades. In fact they would rather sell less for more money because it means greater profit margin with lest cost and more profit. Making return on investment increase and making the stock grow as it has. GW management would rather sell half as much at three times the cost then bring the game to more people.
It's a tradeoff. Making the injection mold is a big expense, and the more sets of that sprue you sell means you can amortize the cost of the mold over more sales. A sprue you're going to sell significantly fewer copies means you have to charge more to recover the cost of the mold. None of which stops them from cranking the price hugely to increase their profit margin, but the smaller production run will make it inherently more expensive, over and above the inflated profit margin.
@@seanmalloy7249 That's the trick, pretend you have to make a few because in reality you charge too much, then charge too much because you have to make a few. It's all BS. Either the game is not as popular as people believe or they are price gouging, there is no magic, "poor GW," stat. Overall, they realize, spend less, charge more, stock goes up, forget how many people actually play, this is not a game for people who like to play games. It's a game for the rich at this point.
This is a bit like the Stormcast in AoS. If they're killed and 'Reforged', each time, they lose something of who they used to be. For them it can be anything - a memory, a skill, a personality trait, an emotion. They're beginning to fear that they'll become soulless automatons over time.
Since it doesn't seem to have the same effect on marines who were Primaris from the start (e.g. Felix), it probably isn't intentional. I'd say it's something like... when you become Primaris, you lose a fifth of your humanity, say. Space marines have lost some humanity to start with, so when they become Primaris, they lose some more again.
I suspect that Space Marines (or at least some chapters) are taught to avoid self-introspection for so long, that once they HAVE to perform an evaluation after becoming Primaris, they have no way to measure how it has or hasn't changed them. Guilliman asks who Uriel was before, and Uriel doesn't really know.
This is interesting, because I very distinctly remember a dark angel's primaris leaning further into his humanity, which causes a lot of friction with the first born dark angels. Maybe primaris that start off as primaris are more adjusted to it, and this problem is only for first borns?
My theory seeing these Primaris are actually been in development since at least 30K and only recently been activated is that the increase in Humanity might be related to being Fresh troops, less scarring from ages of War, both on their Mind and Presumably the Gene seed,
i like to think that after the rubicon you lose some humanity and have to learn how to be human again, to regain what was lost through effort and patience.
Just starting out, but the reason I took the dive was that I thought the Space Marines finally looked cool with Primaris, as opposed to the previous marines. I come from a military background, and I just couldn't buy in to something that was as ... distorted and implausible as the older marines. So just a couple thousand dollars to start, rather than additional couple thousand!
@@____________838 Looking at it now. I have a small pile of Eliminators, so this is already looking good. Okay, that was pretty cool. I also saw his Azrael, and just finished my own Az conversion an hour ago, with extra chains on him too. But my backpack is way more boring. Have to keep an eye on Pete for more ideas.
@@stormycatmink I run a sorta fluffy but tacticool RG 7th Company, can safely say that doubling down on Eliminators is only a good call if RG (Consider Raptor Chapter), also, for stuff like power packs, helms, ect: consider stuff like shapeways. Finally, vet myself, and can safely say as a vet for 40k: Follow the rule of cool, ignore your concept of unit tactics and metagaming. Be the space force you wanna be.
What if the transformation from first born into primaris affect different chapters differently? What if it make the salamanders more aggressive about protecting humanity?
Remember all that civil war setup we had for space marines with the addition of primaris marines? Yeah turns out everyone can be a primaris now, with only a minor chance of dying in the rubicon if you arent a named character.
I think neither. Guilliman knew Uriel was hiding something but it never said exactly what. Yes, Uriel paused before replying but he also stated how he had a false sense of humility (or something like that). So, I propose that crossing the Rubicon would actually bring out the TRUE self of the Astarte and how their perceive stuff. Would make for great story contrast.
I make this point to you Rho. Three guardsmen lives. Seven Astartes. An imperial world at stake. Fight to save ten. Lose ten. Lose the world and the lose the lives of billions. Sacrifice three. In The Emperor's service. Save seven Astartes that can make the difference to save the World. This world and potentially many others. Billions of servants of The Emperor able to fight against the enemy. To the loss of three. One Primaris Marine is a priceless asset in war that could win a battle and a war alone. This is the logic that Ventris is having to employ. Without putting his selfish desires into the equation. It is about winning. Not the "slow losing" that we've become accustomed to since The Horus Heresy and the time of the Great Crusade.
I think the implications is that they're are Word Bearers stock indoctrinated into the Promethian Cult. Outside of that it seems to me that the salamander successors, for lack of a better term, are a bit short on guidance from their parent chapter.
Do we have any stories about Salamander primaris marines? It’d be interesting to see if they fared any better, especially since I was hoping to write about an all-primaris Salamanders successor chapter.
I hope this gets adressed because I want Azrael, Belial and Sapphon to all cross the Rubicon and i dont want them to loose any of their humanity, despite the opoular views people have on the Dark Angels, all of these characters do care about saving lives.
One thing that's important to note is that there are no plans, either in or out of universe, to completely replace Firstborn Marines with Primaris. It's even been stated in the lore that Firstborn Marines are far more tactically flexible in their formations than Primaris Marines.
I loved the debate Dante had about crossing over to Primaris and the details of Mephiston. Mephiston didn’t have a choice really and that was an intense scene. Have you read that series?
Its possible this is a side effect of going through gene enhancement twice .. they already had their nature torn apart once and now it happens to them again when crossing the Rubicon I am thinking this because of the DA Primaris where he was acting more humane than the firstborn Marines from his chapter
I think you're correct there, normal primaris are shown to be fine, the primaris Emperor's Spears and that Dark Angels lieutenant for example. But when a firstborn goes and crosses the Rubicon prehaps it sometimes messes with their bodies like they're being augmented a second time and it can have some funky side effects.
If War of Secrets is still considered canon, then I'd say the Rubicon doesn't erase all of their humanity. Lieutenant Faren displayed a fair measure of humanity, much to his superior Dark Angels annoyance.
Is the logic perhaps an extension of their gene seed? Ultras are always logical, tactical minded. Perhaps it exacerbates certain traits, like space wolves are extra feral, or dark angels extra chaos.
If you want Rho check out spears of the emperor cause youll also see another marine cross the rubricon and comment on how different everything is both mentally and physically. Its also a great read.
My hope is this reaction is specific to Uriel as he finding his feet, in new shoes! Some who have experienced the Rubicon are perhaps more inclined to 'Re-learn' themselves to include more weighting towards chapter but the personal strength of an individual will prevail. That being said if this is deliberate by Caul it could be epic!
Perhaps a side effect of changes made to make Primaris less susceptible to the temptations of Chaos? It's certainly hinted if not stated that such changes were made. The Grey Knights who are programmed, and perhaps physically modified, to better resist Chaos are also described as inhuman and are prone to ruthlessness toward humanity - for example executing Imperial Guard soldiers who have defeated Chaos incursions to prevent their knowledge of Chaos from spreading.
"Cold logic that seeks to expunge weakness where ever it is found". That line just prooves how Uriel sees all weaknesses around him including his own fellow first born Ultramarines.
@@recreant359 Yeah, just look at all those HQ options roll in for every other faction! *Gestures at empty field, a tumbleweed knocking over the occasional 2020 model of the 50% of the HQ options the SM alone have*
I feel like of GW had their way, the only faction you could buy is Ultramarines. And maybe Chaos because the blue boys can't fight themselves cos they're super good boys
Alright, I guess we're just going to forget about necrons and sisters of battle getting a complete update. I guess we're also going to forget about Ad mech new flyer and riders o and there land ship. List goes on
I know the Ultramarines get a lot of disdain, but I always loved their portrayal in the Uriel Ventris novels. Especially the bits scattered throughout where these gigantic unstoppable super humans who exist for no other reason than war actually show respect for the average humans that fight alongside them. Hearing that cold, unfeeling way of thinking being voiced by *Uriel Ventris*, one of the few Astartes to rival the Salamanders in terms of his humanity...gotta admit, it was a bit of a gut punch for me. Glad he seemed to have snapped out of it, though.
Last year Rho covered a bit from “War of Secrets”, where a Dark Angel Primaris was trying to comfort a freezing guardswoman while his astartes brothers were chastising him for it. Could it be that this dilution of human emotion is only occurring with the Astartes that pass the Rubicon?
I like this, at the moment of their introduction, Primaris were perfect and that was it, felt forced in the setting, then named characters begun their "conversion", flawlessly at that. Now, this feels more acute, new power comes at a cost, maybe not physical, but more insidious and subtle, yet incredibly striking, the protectors of humanity losing the very soul that made them so.
Theory, Ultramarines are becoming more logical when crossing because they are becoming more like their Primarch. The Space Marines have always been a hybrid of humanity and Primarch. They always could have been more powerful but and everything else. But they lose the balance of their humanity. They are more like the Thunder Warriors, out of balanced and more like pure weapons of war. Since Space Marines were supposed to replace TWs it makes sense to put them on a more balanced part of the scale between humanity and Primarch. However, war was not ended with the crusade as hoped and so it is a necessary evil for the continued existence of humanity to have greater weapons that are less human.
Hey Wolf. In the book, Spears of the Emperor. A Mentor Astartes also goes through the Rubicon as well, after being mortally wounded. And the only changes he seems to go through, is a freeing of his old ways and ties to his Chapter. The Emperor's Spears are not like the Ultramarines sure. But I thought this be an interesting and good example, of the flip side of the coin you are bringing up here on this topic.
You know I'm a xenos player. Starting my first army which is Tyranid, I have zero interest in playing a loyalist faction. ...Until now, making an Iron Hands successor with Primaris leaning into this problem is *real interesting*.
I believe that undergoing the process of becoming a primaries marine in Uriel's case is like growing older. People change when they become older due to the more experience and knowledge we receive, but it seems as if Uriel had lost his experience in turn for knowledge effecting his attitude.
Maybe it’s not something that’s limited to affecting logic at the price of humanity or feeling only, but has a chance at increasing other traits within other chapters, or even individual marines as well? Depending on how they think prior to crossing the rubicon, maybe they come out being say, more bloodthirsty, or more caring, or something else? Maybe some undergo the inverse, like Uriel here might’ve. It would make for a good setup for chaos primaris, I know that much.
Have you read the spears of the emperor book? When the mentors legion marine crosses the rubicon he actually diverts from his more cold logical nature into his more base emotions.
Maybe the Primaris upgrades have a different effect on each Chapter. the Ultramarines have always been a highly logic driven bunch, and maybe the Primaris upgrades simply enhances this characteristic to an even more superhuman level. That would of course mean, that the brutality of the Blood Angels is enhanced, the secrecy of the Dark Angels and the Iron Hands' contempt of weakness too.
I'm late to the video just because I wanted to read at least most of the new Uriel novel. As a big fan of his, considering I'm only collecting the minis because I loved those novels so much, those opening chapters of the book were a big shakeup. From him not feeling anything when he saw Pasanius again, to thinking they should abandon the Militarum survivors, it was just such a big departure from the Uriel I was used to. Old Uriel missed Pasanius when he had to do one campaign without his friend. Old Uriel had a wounded planetary defense force trooper carried off the field to hospital by an Ultramarine. Old Uriel made friends with humans like Barzano and Shonai, he said a small prayer for the innocent humans that had to die when he bombed a radar station that had been taken over by rebels. He even told his Ultramarines that human soldiers are to be honoured and respected in previous novels. On the other hand, it also made me think that maybe maybe the first borns are still very important, specifically because they can help the new Primaris and also the newly converted first borns that cross the Rubicon to get their bearings properly and not go down the wrong path.
It should be noted that when The Emperor was building the legions. He recruited into the "War-born" (the later Ultramarines). From the most rebellious prisoners and regions on Terra. It was found the Ultramarine geneseed gave a change to increased acceptance to authority. It was used intentionally to remove overly rebellious elements on Terra. Prior to the Great Crusade. Insertion of one half of the Immortis gland in the brain, will no doubt have significant effects on the way Astartes thinks. I think Rho is reading too much into the logic that is employed by Ventris. Ventris is thinking of the bigger picture. Saving the Imperium. In what is its darkest hour. The Primaris are built to win. Wars. They are also built to not be corrupted by the petty concerns that were seen in the lead up to the end of The Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. By putting their human weaknesses and selfishness into decision making processes. To win wars. Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice 3 to save 7 that will win the combat. This is the arithmetic on a large scale The Emperor had to employ to attempt to defeat the enemies of man (Chaos) before that was undone by the petty concerns of men. Which our enemies played to. In the Great Crusade. The attrition on the Astartes had a great impact and cause of the subsequent Heresy. Primaris have clearly been better conditioned in this regard to know... Not everyone can be saved if the Imperium is to survive and win.
Bro.. he handled this vid so well. Subbed for life. Amazing storytelling I imagine even for non 40k fans. I am, but I don't undervalue the actual storytelling between thematic sequences.
I have to say I really like the twist of the idea that Guilliman and Cawl had the hubris to think they could successfully improve on the Astarties and the Primaris could turn out to be these monsters lacking in empathy. Very poetic. It will be interesting to see where that thread goes.
That description of guiluiman makes me wonder if the primarchs(aside from vulkan) are naturally truly immortal seeing as this is like the 3rd instance i know of where we see a description of a primarch ageing. With the first two being horus after leaving the portal on moloch and russ in his primarch novel after he comes back to Mourne the lions death and when the space wolves have just become a chapter.
@@watchonjar Yeah but that like the only way they can age, I believe perturabo once got hit with a time ned, was "aged" a few thousand years but nothing changed for him. While few of his space marines turned into dust or now have wrinkles. Edit: this is in 30k great crusade time, before he become a giant demon toaster.
@@Fourtytwo4242 Yeah i remember that story but I dont think the hrud weapons actually age things, seeing as marines hit by them do not experience being frozen in time for thousands of years. I think those weapons create an effect that looks like ageing via some form of molecular weathering. Therefore peterabo didn't age because he was still in his physiological prime and his primarch biology could still heal back the weathering effects.
I'm a 1st and 2nd edition Warhammer 40K fan/gamer. I love the PC games including DOW(RTS) which is closer to the turn-based game I used to play with friends on a physical gaming table. Spacemarine2 is graphically rich, and the story/roleplay seems to be spot on. You can see the effort invested to keep what games workshop has created sacrosanct. I had a formidable ultramarine army (about 9,000 points in 2nd edition) of miniatures that I painted and poured unimagined hours doing so. We made the terrain as best we could out of wood, resin, clay, and what plastic/resin models we could purchase. There was/is something about using your own artistic effort instilled into your army and using that to play alongside or against your friends who did the same. I could enjoy a well-fought defeat almost as much as a victory because we kept everything as close to the GW canon as we could, and all of the work put into the armies we played was well appreciated by the opponents. As good as the video games look, and SpaceMarine2 looks superb...its still not quite the same as commanding your painstaking physical craftwork on a real gaming table, with real face-to-face socialization with people. Luckily my old friend plays, and we get to talk over the Steam audio system. We both get immersed in the video version of the game we once played. Roboute Guilliman: When GW decided to resurrect this demigod and place him into the current edition of lore it shook me quite a bit. This was an enormous change to the Empire. Roboute Guilliman is a son of the Emperor. He now wields the sword of the Emporer. He is the commander of the entire Imperial military. All the Commissars, Space Marine chapter commanders, as well as the Lord Admirals, answer to Roboute Guilliman directly. This is a seismic shift from the lore I was raised on. I'm still adjusting to it, but I'm coming around. Thanks for the video. Well done.
Ti's is what they should have had with Primaris from the get go. Up until now they've just been portrayed as superior in every way, but this, this gives the Primaris drama, conflict, tragedy and horror. This makes them interesting.
Can you do a piece from Severed, the necron novella? Maybe about the lychguard or the horror of the severed or what it feels like to be a necron with memories before biotransference?
Like others here stated going Primaris seams to push the attributes of the Primarch even further. Thus why Mephiston after he went Primaris control control his rage even better dispite the Black Angel trying to take over him. Thus allowing him to think clearly and decide what Sanguinius would want him to do.
Someone in the comments asked what 'crossing the Rubicon' even means and this got me thinking. In general, 'crossing the Rubicon' means crossing a point of no return. The Rubicon is a river in northern Italy and it was one of the boundary rivers of the old Rome. It was absolutely forbidden to cross the Rubicon with armed Legions, every attempt of doing so was seen as an attack on Rome. And in 49 b.c., Gaius Iulius Caesar did exactly that, crossing the Rubicon with his Legions as a result of a power struggle with a roman field commander and politician called Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus. The result was the outbreak of a civil war that resulted in Iulius Caesar becoming dictator of Rome and eventually in his assassination in 44 b.c.. I think that using this expression makes here sense here in a way, since the Astardes going through this process will inevitably sacrifice even more of their humanity than they already did by becoming Space Marines. And maybe it's even a foreshadowing of things to come and this whole Primaris thing will lead to another civil war within the Empire?
I'm glad I watched this video ahead of Space Marine 2. I had no idea what it meant to be a Primarus, nor the possibilities for conflict that could arrive from it.
I'm reminded of the part in the HH book Deliverance Lost. Specifically the part that explains the Emperors thought process in designing the original Space Marines. I always thought that the level of strength the Emperor gave Astartes was purely arbitrary. But maybe it wasn't?
I can't help but think that this may be a side effect of those who go from firstborn to primaris, instead of those who go straight to primaris. I say that because of what we saw in the Dark Angels and the friction between the honour bound primaris and the pragmatic firstborn. Sure you could chalk this up to writing, but it is possible there's a variation there
Excellent video on the morality of the new enhanced space marines Their human side was in my opinion one of the best assets they had. I wonder how Dante will be changed when he crosses:-(
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Cawl must have rightfully considered that "cold logic" is a much needed asset when your race is just one step away from extinction.
A very very interesting take and explanation! Kudos for sharing and explaining it! I haven't read the novel yet, but this makes even more curios about reading it!
Oddly enough, I am almost finished listening to it on Audible...! And our favourite Ultramarine, Uriel has a few moments when he thinks about and the story talks about his "changes".
I need to catch up on my reading. Lore wise I'm curious to know what Guilliman thinks ok this emerging pattern in the marines who cross the Rubicon and if its the same in the new primaris. Gil gets both praised and made into memes for his logical approach to things. With that said he displays excellent emotional intelligence. For story purposes I hope that Gill confronts Cawl on some things like the loss of humanity.
That is a very very good question if you take the dark Angels for instance in one of your earlier videos I do believe he was a dark Angels captain being more compassionate and humane to a simple servant then the firstborn dark Angels themselves I want to believe that it's different for each person for each primaries
Rumour has it that Salamanders Primaris are 17% more likely to hug you and have increased stomping potential.
I MUST BOOOP THE SNOOOOT
or 17% less likely to hug and have a increased burning potential
@@Prophetofthe8thLegion burning in a caring way.
Iron Hands ...literally no different after Transition.
@@mwnciboo Iron Hands hug people? Doubtful 🤔
A loss of humanity seems to be more related to crossing the rubicon rather than being related to being primaris. In the vast majority of recent novels the primaris are shown to be more human than their first born brethren, often annoying their fellow space marines as they criticize their lack of empathy and humanity, this is seen prominently with the primaris that join the dark angels and flesh tearers. It is also worth noting that in the end of the Swords of Calth, Uriel is able to regain his humanity, and lose the disorientation of crossing the rubicon, albeit after a very intense life or death experience.
This. This needs more upvotes 👍🏻
i would like to see the primaris have an inherrant flaw like shorter lifespan as a trade off, rather than simply being better marines, there should be a cost, like with the thunderwarriors and the custodes (thunderwarriors have shorter life span, but are larger, more aggressive and brutal, custodes have a long creation process which makes them impractical for use as an imperium wide standing army). Maybe lack of humanity and empathy will be their weakness? and strength at the same time? still i would like to see a cost to being bigger, stronger and more resistant to corruption, it would make them more interesting.
@@samuelbutts467 The drawback of the Primaris is that cost a few more points to field and lack the impressive kit-abilty of tiny-marines
@@samuelbutts467 I agree that the primaris should have some kind of unforeseen drawback. But I would prefer if the drawback wasn’t their humanity. Having more human space marines makes them much more compelling characters, as they have to struggle between trying to be a good person while also dealing with the horrors of 40k. The humanity of the Primarchs is what makes them such great characters, and I think that can also be applied to the primaris space marines.
I guess part of the increased humanity might be partially due to being Fresh troops, in both Gene seed and time spent warring,
It’s kind of like the marines are re set to factory settings and have to rediscover what it means to be a defender of humanity and not just a weapon of the imperium
I think it wouldn't really affect New initiates as they're already at factory default and need relearn humanity. The Rubicon, on the other hand, just lost theirs.
Exactly it takes time to wear off f the shiny edges on new Marines
This is a good take on this.
@@DoomStarRequiem how is this a good take, that's generic fantasy?
It is a take (An opinion or fantasy). And it is a good one.
Your objection has been overruled by the high lords and the original statement stands as it is.@@MGrey-qb5xz
I rmemeber a moment in the Ultramarines books when they come across a ruined, burned out city. Uriel and Posanius find a ruined store with a makeshift barricade and behind it, a group of corpses. Likely a family.
Uriel states the they must have been trying to hide. Posanius rhetorically asks "Why didn't they fight?" to which Uriel replies "They couldn't. they aren't trained and aren't armed. What would you do in their situation?"
Posanius instantly replies "I would fight and kill anything threatening me and my people."
Uriel looks at him sadly and thinks "Yes, as an astartes that is your instinct. But as a human with loved ones to care for. You wouldn't"
It's really shocking that Uriel, the space marine who empathised with mortals and their struggles, would actually think this.
You mixed up the names of the space marines it's ureal that should be saying it and not his friend
I served 20 years: no there are those with that instinct
Although defending those you love and care for is a natural human instinct.
@@amedeo909veterans bringing up their service at any possible moment for any reason:
@@thesaucyprophesy2939 civilian with no hardship in life or combat situation: disrespect their betters.
Ultramarines : By, the Emperor... What has happened to my humanity?
Iron Hands : Efficiency achieved.
"Sire, the entire Iron Hands Chapter, after receiving our Primaris have.... vanished."
Meanwhile, at Istvaan Dropsite Massacre M31.566:
*Time Rift Opens Up, Furious Primaris Iron Hands Tear through the Rift, their technology now able to achieve perfect time travel* "FATHER! OUR FLESH IS NO LONGER WEAK! WE ARE COMING!
@@attemptedunkindness3632 id like that, id like that a lot. because that would mean a new heresy ON ROIDS!
(plus a heresy with my man The Iron Hand)
*This diversion of never before seen assault of nearly 1,000 massive Primaris Marines caused both a wake of destruction achieved three things: One, it allowed a breakaway on the front and right flank that allowed access to Lorgar's inner retinue. Two, it fatefully distracted Ferrus Manus; so enamored by the sight of his perfected children cleaving through the traitorous foes that even his sharp mind was distracted from the duel with Fulgrim, whose own strike was indeed for the neck of Manus, but even Fulgrim was expecting a block from his ferocious brother... it was with shock, horror, surprise, perverse glee and pleasure that once and for all Fulgrim retreated from his own body and the sword took over, and lastly: it proved the proof of concept that the Iron Hands did indeed create perfect time travel.*
*Upon retreat, Corax was certain to retrieve the geneseed of one of these strange Primaris in order to present to his father the Emperor, himself not sure how deep the traitor's perfidy dwelled. With much effort, he finally made it to the Emperor of Mankind, and the conversation went thus:*
Corax: "Father, look upon my mind and this geneseed I bear, I believe it can be used to rebuild our shattered legions."
Emperor: *Clears throat* "Err, yeah, I have a bunch of tools for that in my hidden lab beneath the Himalyzians. Go check it out."
Corax: "At once, Father." *Vanishes*
Emperor: *Leans over to Valdor* "When he dies in that murder vault, retrieve that geneseed of his, it might be useful."
Valdor: "Sire, that was Corax... the one you made the perfect infiltrator?"
Emperor: "Shit... Uhh, send that other sneaky one after him to steal it, then."
Alpharius: "Already on it."
Emperor: "What?" *Looks over*
Valdor, who was Alpharius all along: "I said, I am already on it, brother."
Emperor, who was Omegon all along: "Oh."
END
Then again there was that Dark Angel Primaris who showed more care for a human prisoner than the first born.
Didn't he then kill her later in the story?
Spoilers
Absolutely. She was trying to hire a Kroot Warsphere's worth of mercenaries (I forget exactly why, probably to defend/evacuate her homeworld from what I do remember). There was basically a "I stuck my neck out for you, not again" by the Primaris Lieutenant when they encountered each other on the Warsphere and she was killed.
@@matthewr1518 where was tgat story written?
@@Licmebro War of Secrets
The funny thing is, this is an observation of the first born becoming primaris, they become a bit colder, a bit more logical and tactical, but contraversely, the marines who start off as Primaris seem to veer in the opposite direction and have a bit too much humanity and are considered by the first born to be perhaps naive and inexperienced. Also, this is the experience given from the perspective of an Ultra Marine, we'd have to see how it effects those of other chapters. It is entirely possible that crossing the rubicon merely enhances the core personality traits of the gene seed of their Primarch father. So like UMs would be more logical, Space Wolves more feral, etc. Let us not forget that the HH Guilliman was quite like this, cold, logical, tactical, sure he had humanity, but he was also a big picture type of guy. Another idea is that crossing the rubicon might make them more like the Emperor as he exhibited tons of these traits before being put on the chair. We need a larger sample size of experience to truly see.
Agreed. That's how I see this one. This is making an Ultramarine just more of a big-picture thinker. More like his Primarch. But he recognizes the problem, which is in itself a sign that he simply needs time to adjust for his new-found broader perspective.
I think so to, it just intensifies their Primarch's traits within them, could be solved by just being reminded of their Humanity.
Which means a Minotaurs primaris probably got kicked out for sharing a beer with another astartes
Im curious to see how the Salamanders primaris upgrades to their first born turn out if they ever choose to go through with it. If Vulkan's care for humanity was to be amplified? i really dont know how that would look like.
I suspect that Space Marines (or at least some chapters) are taught to avoid self-introspection for so long, that once they HAVE to perform an evaluation after becoming Primaris, they have no way to measure how it has or hasn't changed them. Guilliman asks who Uriel was before, and Uriel doesn't really know.
Uriel once nearly fell to his own death to catch a guardsmen commander that had been trapped in the warp so long his body was withered and near useless. The commander fell from a cliff they were scaling and Uriel cursed himself for the brief moment where he considered letting the man go to save himself.
Dante: “please just let me do it, if I die it’s cool and if I don’t I’m stronger”
Entire blood angels chapter:”NO”
Dante:”I JUST WANNA DIE”
Honestly it’s hilarious the see the Blood Angels set themselves up for a 2nd Sangunius. Dante is as much a piece of the Blood Angels as the Primarch ever was. Perhaps even more so in the current Dark Imperium.
His inevitable death will shatter the chapter so obviously it won’t be permanent leading to an even longer tenure as Chapter Master 😑
Entire blood angel legion*
Its not just the chapter that doesn't want to lose Dante
@@roboticfish317 "I WILL DIE AS DANTE! I WILL DIE AS DANTE!" -Dante, desperately pleading while fighting off the black rage. Blood Angels must like torturing this poor bastard.
Same
Yea so stupid, mephiston was like “if you do it you will die” bro dante will probably die soon anyway he’s over 1500yrs old and his body is failing him...
A theory:
Maybe the change to Primaris just amplifies qualities of the gene seed. Ultramarines were always very tactically minded, not inhuman but tactical, maybe the change just made them tactical to the point of inhumanity towards the guardsmen? Maybe an interesting way of looking at it
It is all the Gene seed of the original Astartes mixed into one. So they would have the strengths and maybe even some of the flaws of all of the First Chapters. Tactical, kind, pragmatic, efficient, ruthless and cunning, cold and calculated. Because the Primarchs are derived from the Emperor and the Astartes derived from the Primarchs, the Primaris are then closer to the Emperor that any one Primarch or Astarte. The Primaris that are Pure Primaris rather than converted are much kinder than their converted counterparts but are nonetheless ruthless, efficient and calculating.
Imagine what it would do to the Lamenters?
MEGA CURSE
“But at what cost?”
“Around 70 dollars my lord. Plus shipping. And that isn’t even from forge world”
*”By the Emperor...”*
I laughed but I'm dead inside... these prices are outragous...
🤣
"I am never gonna financially recover from this"
If going hollow wasn’t bad, now the Chaos Gods wants the bag.
And the Emperor is still recovering?!
What are you guys going to do?
LMAO that was a great comment lol
marneus calgar: oh there is very big chance I'll die? *LETS DO IT*
2 seconds later...
marneus calgar: *FUCCCCKKKKK*
I can't help but read this in Karl the Deranged's voice.
(DEEP ULTRA GROAN)
Mephiston this isn't even the craziest thing I'm going to do this week!
just report maddox and abdiel its a big bot thing going on as of late in the comments
Mood kindred?
Me: "What's the cost of becoming primaris?"
GW: "We need your banking routing number please. :^)"
Under-rated comment.
That is what people have been saying for decades. In fact they would rather sell less for more money because it means greater profit margin with lest cost and more profit. Making return on investment increase and making the stock grow as it has.
GW management would rather sell half as much at three times the cost then bring the game to more people.
It's a tradeoff. Making the injection mold is a big expense, and the more sets of that sprue you sell means you can amortize the cost of the mold over more sales. A sprue you're going to sell significantly fewer copies means you have to charge more to recover the cost of the mold. None of which stops them from cranking the price hugely to increase their profit margin, but the smaller production run will make it inherently more expensive, over and above the inflated profit margin.
@@seanmalloy7249 That's the trick, pretend you have to make a few because in reality you charge too much, then charge too much because you have to make a few. It's all BS. Either the game is not as popular as people believe or they are price gouging, there is no magic, "poor GW," stat. Overall, they realize, spend less, charge more, stock goes up, forget how many people actually play, this is not a game for people who like to play games. It's a game for the rich at this point.
*"And Then We Won"*
- Primarneus Cawlgurl
This is a bit like the Stormcast in AoS. If they're killed and 'Reforged', each time, they lose something of who they used to be. For them it can be anything - a memory, a skill, a personality trait, an emotion. They're beginning to fear that they'll become soulless automatons over time.
Sounds like what happens to Necrons.
@@caav56 , yes .... Yes it does....
Uriel:"leave the militarum behind."
Warsmith Honsou eavesdropping: "*MY MAN.*" 😂
Uriel: "leave the militarum behind."
Seth: "We left someone ALIVE?!?"
@@barlotardy 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Uriel: "leave the militarum behind."
Pedro Kantor: [chews bottom lip]
Since it doesn't seem to have the same effect on marines who were Primaris from the start (e.g. Felix), it probably isn't intentional. I'd say it's something like... when you become Primaris, you lose a fifth of your humanity, say. Space marines have lost some humanity to start with, so when they become Primaris, they lose some more again.
Groovy! You answered my question about Primaris born!
I suspect that Space Marines (or at least some chapters) are taught to avoid self-introspection for so long, that once they HAVE to perform an evaluation after becoming Primaris, they have no way to measure how it has or hasn't changed them. Guilliman asks who Uriel was before, and Uriel doesn't really know.
This is interesting, because I very distinctly remember a dark angel's primaris leaning further into his humanity, which causes a lot of friction with the first born dark angels. Maybe primaris that start off as primaris are more adjusted to it, and this problem is only for first borns?
No doubt they are more humane. The primaris dark Angel disobeyed and saved humans.
My theory seeing these Primaris are actually been in development since at least 30K and only recently been activated is that the increase in Humanity might be related to being Fresh troops, less scarring from ages of War, both on their Mind and Presumably the Gene seed,
i like to think that after the rubicon you lose some humanity and have to learn how to be human again, to regain what was lost through effort and patience.
A couple thousand dollars and a divorce. -The actual cost of going Primaris
This may be the best comment I’ve ever seen on a Warhammer video.
Just starting out, but the reason I took the dive was that I thought the Space Marines finally looked cool with Primaris, as opposed to the previous marines. I come from a military background, and I just couldn't buy in to something that was as ... distorted and implausible as the older marines.
So just a couple thousand dollars to start, rather than additional couple thousand!
@@stormycatmink Have you seen Pete The Wargamer’s Raptor Killteam?
@@____________838 Looking at it now. I have a small pile of Eliminators, so this is already looking good.
Okay, that was pretty cool. I also saw his Azrael, and just finished my own Az conversion an hour ago, with extra chains on him too. But my backpack is way more boring. Have to keep an eye on Pete for more ideas.
@@stormycatmink I run a sorta fluffy but tacticool RG 7th Company, can safely say that doubling down on Eliminators is only a good call if RG (Consider Raptor Chapter), also, for stuff like power packs, helms, ect: consider stuff like shapeways. Finally, vet myself, and can safely say as a vet for 40k: Follow the rule of cool, ignore your concept of unit tactics and metagaming. Be the space force you wanna be.
What if the transformation from first born into primaris affect different chapters differently? What if it make the salamanders more aggressive about protecting humanity?
Everything has a price. The only question is, "Is it worth Paying ?"
Thomas Sowell. "There are no Solutions, only Compromises."
In this case, no it isn't
"we all make choices. But in the end, our choices make us" - Andrew Ryan (Bioshock)
@@jackmyers8687 well yes because one of these militarum dudes is an officer that in the end becomes the leader of this planetary forces.
Me who does bodybuilding, looking at space marines. "Absobloodylutely".
I really enjoy your voice, your choice of words and the way you pronounce your sentences.
Super calming.
Remember all that civil war setup we had for space marines with the addition of primaris marines?
Yeah turns out everyone can be a primaris now, with only a minor chance of dying in the rubicon if you arent a named character.
My own chapter will never embrace the Primaris. 'Tis heresy!
@Gorbz better pick a different army to collect, the primaris are here to stay
I actually really want Dante to try doing it. And die in the process. I think it will make them realize the danger and show the horror of it.
The primars made space marines really boring
I think neither.
Guilliman knew Uriel was hiding something but it never said exactly what. Yes, Uriel paused before replying but he also stated how he had a false sense of humility (or something like that). So, I propose that crossing the Rubicon would actually bring out the TRUE self of the Astarte and how their perceive stuff. Would make for great story contrast.
If hope your assesment Is true cousin, would be very interesting to explore
Geneseed of all 20 legions....me :thinking of lost primarchs and their legion
I would love to read a short story about the Salamanders and how they have integrated the Primaris!
If what I'm reading in the comments are correct, then those initially made into Primaris would fit in well with Vulkan's firstborn sons.
they started by burning them. If you can't take the heat, get out of the Salamander's Chapter
I make this point to you Rho.
Three guardsmen lives. Seven Astartes.
An imperial world at stake.
Fight to save ten. Lose ten. Lose the world and the lose the lives of billions.
Sacrifice three. In The Emperor's service. Save seven Astartes that can make the difference to save the World. This world and potentially many others. Billions of servants of The Emperor able to fight against the enemy. To the loss of three.
One Primaris Marine is a priceless asset in war that could win a battle and a war alone.
This is the logic that Ventris is having to employ. Without putting his selfish desires into the equation.
It is about winning. Not the "slow losing" that we've become accustomed to since The Horus Heresy and the time of the Great Crusade.
This may be the reason the Primaris Salamander successor chapters are so unlike their parent chapter.
One of their successors has a chapter logo similar to a pre-heresy Word Bearers badge.
I think the implications is that they're are Word Bearers stock indoctrinated into the Promethian Cult. Outside of that it seems to me that the salamander successors, for lack of a better term, are a bit short on guidance from their parent chapter.
@@DevilishDropout true, same could be said with a number of other chapters, even before the Primaris Marines.
Do we have any stories about Salamander primaris marines? It’d be interesting to see if they fared any better, especially since I was hoping to write about an all-primaris Salamanders successor chapter.
I hope this gets adressed because I want Azrael, Belial and Sapphon to all cross the Rubicon and i dont want them to loose any of their humanity, despite the opoular views people have on the Dark Angels, all of these characters do care about saving lives.
Sounds like a Jeep commercial. The Azrael, because crossing the Rubicon, shouldn't lose you your humanity. TM
Guilliman's humanity was mostly result of his human parents. I'd say the transformation enhances their primarch's original pre-programming.
I can't wait till Mephiston becomes even more powerful to the point that the chapter's bio magic librarians have to work their magic on him.
One thing that's important to note is that there are no plans, either in or out of universe, to completely replace Firstborn Marines with Primaris. It's even been stated in the lore that Firstborn Marines are far more tactically flexible in their formations than Primaris Marines.
Till they need to upgrade primaries with lascanons
tiny-marines are gonna go, don't kid yourself. GW is just being smart about it, trying not to step on anybody's dix
@@doctordoubledakka3939this one aged sadly too well :(
I loved the debate Dante had about crossing over to Primaris and the details of Mephiston. Mephiston didn’t have a choice really and that was an intense scene. Have you read that series?
This opened the door for chaos primaris.
Gal Vorbak 2.0
Wouldn’t that be fun.
Its possible this is a side effect of going through gene enhancement twice .. they already had their nature torn apart once and now it happens to them again when crossing the Rubicon
I am thinking this because of the DA Primaris where he was acting more humane than the firstborn Marines from his chapter
I think you're correct there, normal primaris are shown to be fine, the primaris Emperor's Spears and that Dark Angels lieutenant for example. But when a firstborn goes and crosses the Rubicon prehaps it sometimes messes with their bodies like they're being augmented a second time and it can have some funky side effects.
well, now i wanna see some primaris Malevolent Marines
Oh God.....
lmao
Angry Marines. Sort of angry some of the time.
If War of Secrets is still considered canon, then I'd say the Rubicon doesn't erase all of their humanity. Lieutenant Faren displayed a fair measure of humanity, much to his superior Dark Angels annoyance.
Purging emotions from Primaris
Less corruption from the warp
But wouldn’t that create a new chaos god?
@@NewGuy2534 the emprah is already the new chaos god
Is the logic perhaps an extension of their gene seed? Ultras are always logical, tactical minded. Perhaps it exacerbates certain traits, like space wolves are extra feral, or dark angels extra chaos.
Raven Guard that cross the rubicon cry twice as much
Super Lolz for "extra chaos"
If you want Rho check out spears of the emperor cause youll also see another marine cross the rubricon and comment on how different everything is both mentally and physically. Its also a great read.
My hope is this reaction is specific to Uriel as he finding his feet, in new shoes! Some who have experienced the Rubicon are perhaps more inclined to 'Re-learn' themselves to include more weighting towards chapter but the personal strength of an individual will prevail. That being said if this is deliberate by Caul it could be epic!
Hearing that an Ultramarine thought nothing of LOYAL human solders under their care is bonechilling.
Perhaps a side effect of changes made to make Primaris less susceptible to the temptations of Chaos? It's certainly hinted if not stated that such changes were made. The Grey Knights who are programmed, and perhaps physically modified, to better resist Chaos are also described as inhuman and are prone to ruthlessness toward humanity - for example executing Imperial Guard soldiers who have defeated Chaos incursions to prevent their knowledge of Chaos from spreading.
Thanks again, Wolf Lord, really appreciate your vids during these stressful days.
"Cold logic that seeks to expunge weakness where ever it is found". That line just prooves how Uriel sees all weaknesses around him including his own fellow first born Ultramarines.
Uriel: The Rubicon made me tougher!
Me: *Looks at datasheet* Nope, still Toughness4
The cost is never another release for anybody other then SM
Nice!
What? Do you even pay attention to the releases lol?
@@recreant359 Yeah, just look at all those HQ options roll in for every other faction! *Gestures at empty field, a tumbleweed knocking over the occasional 2020 model of the 50% of the HQ options the SM alone have*
I feel like of GW had their way, the only faction you could buy is Ultramarines. And maybe Chaos because the blue boys can't fight themselves cos they're super good boys
Alright, I guess we're just going to forget about necrons and sisters of battle getting a complete update. I guess we're also going to forget about Ad mech new flyer and riders o and there land ship. List goes on
How long until Cawl rolls out the Primaris Luna Wolves, Death Guard etc lol
Primaris Word Bearers with the most LIT🔥 church services 😎
@@henryviiifake8244 can you imagine the lore implications of Abaddon facing off against primaris Luna Wolves lol
@@mcc_1024 Have Loken brought out of his secret stasis chamber to lead them as a Primaris marine. “Look at me now Abaddon... your time is come!”
@@JerodTrd i would read the shit out of that book
I know the Ultramarines get a lot of disdain, but I always loved their portrayal in the Uriel Ventris novels. Especially the bits scattered throughout where these gigantic unstoppable super humans who exist for no other reason than war actually show respect for the average humans that fight alongside them. Hearing that cold, unfeeling way of thinking being voiced by *Uriel Ventris*, one of the few Astartes to rival the Salamanders in terms of his humanity...gotta admit, it was a bit of a gut punch for me. Glad he seemed to have snapped out of it, though.
1.25x speed and he sounds like a normal person.
I used 1.5x
Glad I'm not the only one. It feels like he's intentionally drawing out his words.
Probably the only way I can watch him
Last year Rho covered a bit from “War of Secrets”, where a Dark Angel Primaris was trying to comfort a freezing guardswoman while his astartes brothers were chastising him for it.
Could it be that this dilution of human emotion is only occurring with the Astartes that pass the Rubicon?
I like this, at the moment of their introduction, Primaris were perfect and that was it, felt forced in the setting, then named characters begun their "conversion", flawlessly at that. Now, this feels more acute, new power comes at a cost, maybe not physical, but more insidious and subtle, yet incredibly striking, the protectors of humanity losing the very soul that made them so.
Theory, Ultramarines are becoming more logical when crossing because they are becoming more like their Primarch. The Space Marines have always been a hybrid of humanity and Primarch. They always could have been more powerful but and everything else. But they lose the balance of their humanity. They are more like the Thunder Warriors, out of balanced and more like pure weapons of war. Since Space Marines were supposed to replace TWs it makes sense to put them on a more balanced part of the scale between humanity and Primarch. However, war was not ended with the crusade as hoped and so it is a necessary evil for the continued existence of humanity to have greater weapons that are less human.
Hey Wolf. In the book, Spears of the Emperor. A Mentor Astartes also goes through the Rubicon as well, after being mortally wounded. And the only changes he seems to go through, is a freeing of his old ways and ties to his Chapter.
The Emperor's Spears are not like the Ultramarines sure. But I thought this be an interesting and good example, of the flip side of the coin you are bringing up here on this topic.
You know I'm a xenos player. Starting my first army which is Tyranid, I have zero interest in playing a loyalist faction.
...Until now, making an Iron Hands successor with Primaris leaning into this problem is *real interesting*.
I believe that undergoing the process of becoming a primaries marine in Uriel's case is like growing older. People change when they become older due to the more experience and knowledge we receive, but it seems as if Uriel had lost his experience in turn for knowledge effecting his attitude.
I wonder if this is only a first born problem? I remember a dark angel primaris who stunned the first born by his better treatment of a prisoner
Maybe it’s not something that’s limited to affecting logic at the price of humanity or feeling only, but has a chance at increasing other traits within other chapters, or even individual marines as well? Depending on how they think prior to crossing the rubicon, maybe they come out being say, more bloodthirsty, or more caring, or something else? Maybe some undergo the inverse, like Uriel here might’ve. It would make for a good setup for chaos primaris, I know that much.
And to think that dude from the flesh tearers thought that the primaris project was to turn all the chapters into Smurfs.
Not literally
@@LewisB3217 I meant behaviourally, so, yes, not literally. Wouldn't do to have them in constant pain like Alpha Primus.
It's quite possible the changes only affect those who cross the Rubicon. It's also possible the changes affect each brother or chapter differently.
Have you read the spears of the emperor book? When the mentors legion marine crosses the rubicon he actually diverts from his more cold logical nature into his more base emotions.
Maybe the Primaris upgrades have a different effect on each Chapter. the Ultramarines have always been a highly logic driven bunch, and maybe the Primaris upgrades simply enhances this characteristic to an even more superhuman level. That would of course mean, that the brutality of the Blood Angels is enhanced, the secrecy of the Dark Angels and the Iron Hands' contempt of weakness too.
Titus has now crossed the Rubicon as well
I'm late to the video just because I wanted to read at least most of the new Uriel novel. As a big fan of his, considering I'm only collecting the minis because I loved those novels so much, those opening chapters of the book were a big shakeup. From him not feeling anything when he saw Pasanius again, to thinking they should abandon the Militarum survivors, it was just such a big departure from the Uriel I was used to. Old Uriel missed Pasanius when he had to do one campaign without his friend. Old Uriel had a wounded planetary defense force trooper carried off the field to hospital by an Ultramarine. Old Uriel made friends with humans like Barzano and Shonai, he said a small prayer for the innocent humans that had to die when he bombed a radar station that had been taken over by rebels. He even told his Ultramarines that human soldiers are to be honoured and respected in previous novels. On the other hand, it also made me think that maybe maybe the first borns are still very important, specifically because they can help the new Primaris and also the newly converted first borns that cross the Rubicon to get their bearings properly and not go down the wrong path.
Interesting video man. Its brilliant how deep you delve into lore and pass on your conclusions in such a passionate way 👏
It should be noted that when The Emperor was building the legions. He recruited into the "War-born" (the later Ultramarines). From the most rebellious prisoners and regions on Terra. It was found the Ultramarine geneseed gave a change to increased acceptance to authority. It was used intentionally to remove overly rebellious elements on Terra. Prior to the Great Crusade.
Insertion of one half of the Immortis gland in the brain, will no doubt have significant effects on the way Astartes thinks.
I think Rho is reading too much into the logic that is employed by Ventris.
Ventris is thinking of the bigger picture. Saving the Imperium. In what is its darkest hour.
The Primaris are built to win. Wars.
They are also built to not be corrupted by the petty concerns that were seen in the lead up to the end of The Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy. By putting their human weaknesses and selfishness into decision making processes.
To win wars. Sometimes it is necessary to sacrifice 3 to save 7 that will win the combat.
This is the arithmetic on a large scale The Emperor had to employ to attempt to defeat the enemies of man (Chaos) before that was undone by the petty concerns of men. Which our enemies played to.
In the Great Crusade. The attrition on the Astartes had a great impact and cause of the subsequent Heresy. Primaris have clearly been better conditioned in this regard to know...
Not everyone can be saved if the Imperium is to survive and win.
sad but true
What is your duty?
Ive never heard such respect and praise for the guardsmen from an astartes until now. That was FIRE
I remember Decimus Felix feeling a genuine love for humanity... it think it was in a Cawl book 🤔
I think the real cost is going from a 28m base too a 32m base!
what does that mean? Can you explain to me please I am not sure what 28m base and 32m base means
@@SolarCasper it's sizes of the old and new space marine bases. Bases as an in the black plastic disc's the models come on!
@@friendlycatachan9220 weren't 32mm bases brought in for 6e?
@@Lameyoutubehandle I don't know. I have some tactical marines but they have 28m, however I don't know how old they are.
@@friendlycatachan9220 28m is a fucking big base
Such a great insight into the primaris. Did the god emperor know this and find the balance between humanity and mindless soldier?
Cawl: oh you love having your emotions? You love battle and spilling blood? Feeding the Chaos gods?!
Cawl: *emotions removed*
YESSSSSSSSSSSS
Bro.. he handled this vid so well. Subbed for life. Amazing storytelling I imagine even for non 40k fans. I am, but I don't undervalue the actual storytelling between thematic sequences.
I wonder if this cold logic also has a psychological effect on the Salamander Primaris marines, will be interesting to see how this is handled.
I have to say I really like the twist of the idea that Guilliman and Cawl had the hubris to think they could successfully improve on the Astarties and the Primaris could turn out to be these monsters lacking in empathy. Very poetic. It will be interesting to see where that thread goes.
That description of guiluiman makes me wonder if the primarchs(aside from vulkan) are naturally truly immortal seeing as this is like the 3rd instance i know of where we see a description of a primarch ageing. With the first two being horus after leaving the portal on moloch and russ in his primarch novel after he comes back to Mourne the lions death and when the space wolves have just become a chapter.
It is believed Primarchs age by their mental state, worse they feel, the worse they look.
@@Fourtytwo4242 That just sounds like natural human ageing due to stress to me.
@@watchonjar Yeah but that like the only way they can age, I believe perturabo once got hit with a time ned, was "aged" a few thousand years but nothing changed for him. While few of his space marines turned into dust or now have wrinkles.
Edit: this is in 30k great crusade time, before he become a giant demon toaster.
@@Fourtytwo4242 Yeah i remember that story but I dont think the hrud weapons actually age things, seeing as marines hit by them do not experience being frozen in time for thousands of years. I think those weapons create an effect that looks like ageing via some form of molecular weathering. Therefore peterabo didn't age because he was still in his physiological prime and his primarch biology could still heal back the weathering effects.
I've been watching a few 40k lore videos per week for a couple of years now.
I forgot that the Iron Hands still exist.
by the Emperor, the timing of youtube suggestions is impeccable. ifykyk
1:03
Whoa whoa whoa, Cawl has his mitts on the gene seed of ALL 20 legions??
The big E's edict didn't see to the lost 2 destruction?
I'm a 1st and 2nd edition Warhammer 40K fan/gamer. I love the PC games including DOW(RTS) which is closer to the turn-based game I used to play with friends on a physical gaming table. Spacemarine2 is graphically rich, and the story/roleplay seems to be spot on. You can see the effort invested to keep what games workshop has created sacrosanct.
I had a formidable ultramarine army (about 9,000 points in 2nd edition) of miniatures that I painted and poured unimagined hours doing so. We made the terrain as best we could out of wood, resin, clay, and what plastic/resin models we could purchase. There was/is something about using your own artistic effort instilled into your army and using that to play alongside or against your friends who did the same. I could enjoy a well-fought defeat almost as much as a victory because we kept everything as close to the GW canon as we could, and all of the work put into the armies we played was well appreciated by the opponents. As good as the video games look, and SpaceMarine2 looks superb...its still not quite the same as commanding your painstaking physical craftwork on a real gaming table, with real face-to-face socialization with people. Luckily my old friend plays, and we get to talk over the Steam audio system. We both get immersed in the video version of the game we once played.
Roboute Guilliman:
When GW decided to resurrect this demigod and place him into the current edition of lore it shook me quite a bit. This was an enormous change to the Empire. Roboute Guilliman is a son of the Emperor. He now wields the sword of the Emporer. He is the commander of the entire Imperial military. All the Commissars, Space Marine chapter commanders, as well as the Lord Admirals, answer to Roboute Guilliman directly. This is a seismic shift from the lore I was raised on. I'm still adjusting to it, but I'm coming around.
Thanks for the video. Well done.
Ti's is what they should have had with Primaris from the get go. Up until now they've just been portrayed as superior in every way, but this, this gives the Primaris drama, conflict, tragedy and horror. This makes them interesting.
Thank you for the spoiler warning, I'll be back to watch once I've finished Sword of Calth
Can you do a piece from Severed, the necron novella? Maybe about the lychguard or the horror of the severed or what it feels like to be a necron with memories before biotransference?
I wonder why the called that "crossing the rubicon", I mean, in history, its has a VERY specific meaning
I mean, Guilliman is basically the Caesar, and his men "cross the Rubicon"?
@@andresf9072 Doesn't that other faction already have Rubicon Marines? Something, something, space dust
Like others here stated going Primaris seams to push the attributes of the Primarch even further. Thus why Mephiston after he went Primaris control control his rage even better dispite the Black Angel trying to take over him. Thus allowing him to think clearly and decide what Sanguinius would want him to do.
Someone in the comments asked what 'crossing the Rubicon' even means and this got me thinking. In general, 'crossing the Rubicon' means crossing a point of no return.
The Rubicon is a river in northern Italy and it was one of the boundary rivers of the old Rome. It was absolutely forbidden to cross the Rubicon with armed Legions, every attempt of doing so was seen as an attack on Rome. And in 49 b.c., Gaius Iulius Caesar did exactly that, crossing the Rubicon with his Legions as a result of a power struggle with a roman field commander and politician called Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus.
The result was the outbreak of a civil war that resulted in Iulius Caesar becoming dictator of Rome and eventually in his assassination in 44 b.c..
I think that using this expression makes here sense here in a way, since the Astardes going through this process will inevitably sacrifice even more of their humanity than they already did by becoming Space Marines. And maybe it's even a foreshadowing of things to come and this whole Primaris thing will lead to another civil war within the Empire?
I'm glad I watched this video ahead of Space Marine 2. I had no idea what it meant to be a Primarus, nor the possibilities for conflict that could arrive from it.
Ventris is evolving into the logical advanced Primaris who fights against odds to win at any cost.
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also dream; not only plan, but also believe.
I'm reminded of the part in the HH book Deliverance Lost.
Specifically the part that explains the Emperors thought process in designing the original Space Marines. I always thought that the level of strength the Emperor gave Astartes was purely arbitrary.
But maybe it wasn't?
I can't help but think that this may be a side effect of those who go from firstborn to primaris, instead of those who go straight to primaris. I say that because of what we saw in the Dark Angels and the friction between the honour bound primaris and the pragmatic firstborn. Sure you could chalk this up to writing, but it is possible there's a variation there
Excellent video on the morality of the new enhanced space marines
Their human side was in my opinion one of the best assets they had.
I wonder how Dante will be changed when he crosses:-(
Desperate times call for desperate measures. Cawl must have rightfully considered that "cold logic" is a much needed asset when your race is just one step away from extinction.
A very very interesting take and explanation! Kudos for sharing and explaining it! I haven't read the novel yet, but this makes even more curios about reading it!
Oddly enough, I am almost finished listening to it on Audible...! And our favourite Ultramarine, Uriel has a few moments when he thinks about and the story talks about his "changes".
I need to catch up on my reading. Lore wise I'm curious to know what Guilliman thinks ok this emerging pattern in the marines who cross the Rubicon and if its the same in the new primaris. Gil gets both praised and made into memes for his logical approach to things. With that said he displays excellent emotional intelligence. For story purposes I hope that Gill confronts Cawl on some things like the loss of humanity.
"But you were always Primaris... Jonathan"
That is a very very good question if you take the dark Angels for instance in one of your earlier videos I do believe he was a dark Angels captain being more compassionate and humane to a simple servant then the firstborn dark Angels themselves I want to believe that it's different for each person for each primaries