I have a new one that I have been working on over the last year and had good repor with my group. Which if smooth transition into battle and heightens dramatic moments.
Initiative die: Each class has a different die - fast classes like monks or rogues have d4, martial have d8, wizards - d12. Everyone rolls dices and the one who rolls the lowest starts. DM rolls d6. If both PCs have the same number - the one who had smaller Initiative die starts (or at the same time if Initiative die was the same). You don't have to calculate anything. Initiative takes about 10 seconds and you don't lose the momentum of storytelling. You can even make a Initiative tracker with just 12 position and quickly setup during initiative
How would this interact with initiative bonuses through? Advantage seems straight forward, but adding Wisdom/Intelligence/Charisma gets confusing and I'm not sure of an easy solution to that.
I feel like I have to double up some of the orhers' quandary. What about Dexterity? Don't get me wrong; I do like it... But wouldn't it be better suited based upon your initiative score? So, for every +X you have, decrease the size of your die by one step. Although, I will add that I kind of love spellcasters getting a D12... It feels almost like a callback to early editions (specifically, I think, the basic editions where spellcasters spells always triggered last). And simultaneous initiative, also a cool feature. Where a D20 system could include simultaneous Initiative... There's just a much higher chance you get to play with it if you only have 12 options and no modifiers.
The Doctor Who RPGs “Adventures in Space and Time” and “Doctors and Daleks” have my all-time favourite initiative system, though it’s very appropriate to the show it’s based on: characters declare the kind of thing they’re doing, and then talkers go first, movers go second, doers go third, and fighters go last. Love it. Whether it’d work in a traditional fantasy game really depends on the tone, but it’s effectively a simpler, genre-focussed version of stance initiative, like you see in The One Ring.
Agreed. I`'ll need to get a Bluetooth mic like that with a windscreen to do more outisde videos. My first outside video has too much noise from wind. Thanksfor being an inspiration to other GameTubers, Bob!
Your own initiative method in DC20 is really cool. I like how various characters can boost their initiative with different stats based on what they are doing. It is great for groups that want a bit more intricacy and "crunch" to their game. This method is probably not for everybody, but it is very cool.
It was a pleasure collaborating with you on this... initiative, Bob! ;D (eh eh) And thank you in advance to all the lovely folks who'll come check out my work!
My favorite is always going to be the Savage Worlds iniciative: - You use a poker deck - The ones with the highest card goes first, unless you have an Ace - Joker lets you act when ever you like and get a +2 for your rolls - If you wanna go first you can get an Edge that let's you discard 5 or lower cards
@@BobWorldBuilder Yeah! And when a joker gets draw you have to shuffle the deck again so another player (Or the GM!) could get it, it's really fun an interactive, there are a lot of builds around joker fishing, middle turn cards, late drawing, etc.
Also with jokers come bennies! I love Savage Worlds initiative. It's not for every kind of RPG and certainly not for many dnd-like styles of play, but it's thrilling, fun and unpredictable. In most RPGs you don't cheer for a great initiative roll, but getting a joker in Savage Worlds is as awesome as getting a natural 20 in D&D
I use the passive initiative (I call it static initiative) for Monsters. It divides the turns into 3 phases: Fast Move, Monster Move, Slow Move. What works best about it? I don't need to know the players' numbers. I just say, "Roll initiative beat a 13." Then I say, "Fast moves go, " the players who roll high can decide their order. Then, the monsters attack. Then I say, "Slow moves go." This works so quickly that we roll initiative every round to keep things exciting.
Nice. A couple other comments mentioned that Cosmere and Shadow of the Demon Lord have methods like this. I really like the idea of basially splitting the "normal sized" group in half, and that way it's less chaotic for them to choose their own order
@BobWorldBuilder I've been doing it for about a year, and it's my favorite approach. Across 4 decades, I've tried many different ways... sides, cards, clockwise... But this is many favorite.
I do the same. Roll each round, fast PCs act, then all monsters, then remaining PCs. Been playing for about 25 years and it's become my favourite method.
So, does everyone roll initiative and then players are divided in half based on who rolled above/below a 13? I'm curious to try this out but want to make sure I'm understanding correctly!
@@sonicexpert986 As I understand it all players roll, and they could all roll higher than 13 and all be "fast" but statistically about half will be slow.
My favourite idea for initiative system is like ranked initiative, but everyone declares what they do in reverse initiative order, and then actions are resolved in normal initiative order. That means if you get high initiative as a rogue, you can see the archer draw their bow on the wizard as they declare their action, and then choose to attack that archer specifically. You reroll initiative every round so it might be better for smaller groups, but I like the idea of reacting to characters before they complete their actions.
That's a cool idea! I feel like I might end up forgetting what I said certain monsters would do. But I like that idea of fast characters still getting to go first while also knowing what everyone is doing.
@@BobWorldBuilder This is very similar to Dominion Rules RPG, wich take combat (duels formost) to another level of complexity (still a little crunchy if you have too many people at the table)... still it's very interesting
The Cosmere RPG has a really great initiative system imo It's not released yet, but the beta test materials are available for free online. To determine initiative order, each player announces if they'd rather take a fast turn or slow turn. If they take a fast turn, they'll go first but only have two actions for that round, and if they take a slow turn, they'll get three actions but go after the characters taking fast turns. The order for characters is always: fast PCs > fast NPCs > slow PCs > slow NPCs. Within each group, players just decide among themselves who gets to go first (it wasn't a problem at all in my group of 5, but I can see it slowing things down in bigger or newer groups). Just from the beta rules, I can tell the system is gonna be a new favorite for me and my group. The player in our group who had never read any cosmere books still had a great time and didn't feel lost at all. It's definitely worth checking out!
@Alleister207 Yeah, they sound really similar, but I haven't played Shadow of the Demon Lord. From what I can tell, the Cosmere RPG gives a bit more actions per round (it does them similarly to Pathfinder 2E). It also kinda took and (in my opinion) improved the advantage and threat system from fantasy flight's Star Wars RPG (the lead designer of the Cosmere RPG was also a designer for FFG so it makes sense. The Cosmere RPG does a really great job of mixing in a bunch of elements from other systems and getting them to work well together. The death and injury system is also great
Interesting! I know Nimble 5e does something similar, granting a different number of actions per round, but the number of actions is based on a roll. I like how in this Cosmere version, players get to choose their order, and splitting them into two groups means you probably have only 2-3 player characters in each of those groups.
@BobWorldBuilder Yeah, my players were able to get the hang of it immediately, and we never spent more than a minute determining initiative order. Being able to mix up initiative each round also made things feel a bit more tactical and kept things fresh. I really recommend checking out the beta rules for the RPG. It broke the record for most funding for a game on kickstarter (and is the third most funded project overall). As I mentioned, one of my players hadn't read any of the books, but he took to it just as much as the others who have read them all. I also really recommend the books if you're looking for a big fantasy series to sink your teeth into.
@kaladongstormguy it also allows the dm to mix up intiative order too. Really fun back and forth especially when the players realize the boss hasn't gone yet only to get hit by a huge aoe swing that has advantage and then the player who's lowest gets stabbed for 2 focus points lol.
Troika is a wacky one. Like the card initiative, but with tokens in a bag. Everyone gets multiple tokens in the bag, and there is a token that marks the round end where you put tokens back in the bag. So more chaotic then what you described, as it’s possible to get multiple turns or no turns in a given round of combat. To balance this, in troika you can deal damage on the defense. So the turn doesn’t determine who can deal damage, but instead all the other stuff
Before we start the session each player rolls 6 initiative rolls that I record on an index card along with my 3 generic initiative rolls. Combat breaks out they roll a d6 and that row is the initiative for the combat. Quicker in the moment and allows better flow.
The German RPG Splittermond has a very innovative board-game initiative system. You have a board with a "tick bar", numbered fields going in a circle. Every field represents a tick of the clock. Different actions cost different amount of time. Maybe 10 ticks to load your bow, 2 ticks to shoot it, 5 ticks to run half your movement and so on. The player token on the lowest number is always acting first (earliest in time) and moves forward the amount of ticks the chosen action takes. The interesting thing is that this adds a novel strategic component to decide on the actions you want to take before it's your enemy's turn. And it does this without the overhead of rolling initiative every round (you only roll once for the tick you start on in the very beginning) The system has a few konks I think could be rounded out, but I love the general idea of representing time this way.
Feng Shui and Hackmaster have used tick up initiative for a long time, although I think Splittermond is the best implementation of it. It only really works in games with Action Point mechanics, though, so it would be a lot of work to import into 5e.
Exalted uses it too. It's equally fun and daunting to have to go through your potential actions and attempt to "tune" them to match your strategy. Are you going to go with faster actions and attempt more of a "whittling" strategy? Or maybe you'll accept going slower with the intention that you'll just obliterate foes in a single blow and they won't get to stack up attacks on you or your allies. The best part is that everyone can see the combat tracker, and strategize around it when it's not their turn.
There’s a blog, A Knight at the Opera, who made a post trying to compile EVERY Initiative Method and they came pretty close! I recommend reading it! I use Speed Sandwich personally! At the start of each round all players roll +Dex against the Medium DC for the encounter level. Players who beat it go Fast and take their turns simultaneously, then the Enemies go, then the Slow players go.
Lancer has an interesting initiative rule as well. (Simplified) explanation: There is player team and enemy team. A player takes the first turn in a round, then an enemy, then back to a different player, different enemy and so on. When the sides have different number, the larger will take the remaining turns at the end of the round.
You forgot to mention that it's also a "popcorn" style where the previous player determines who is next. To sum it up: the player team goes first and they all decide who that is going to be. After the player goes that player decides who is going next on their side. Next is a GM controlled character, and then the player the previous player decided to go next. etc.
@@Illithid72 ah gotcha. Draw Steel is different from that. Just each side alternating in whatever order they want until everyone has taken a turn. No one decides beforehand who will go next.
@@BobWorldBuilder Into the ODD (Original D&D) has been a huge inspiration for a large chunk of NSR titles such as Cairn and Knave. It's a really cool branch.
the latest version of Fabula Ultima has essentially the same initiative system as DC20 variant rule (i.e. alternating and players choose their order), only with a single change - unless the monster you're fighting is a boss, the PCs always go first. I like it because it makes rolling for initiative more special and more scary.
Popcorn initiative: Players and monster (groups) start each round with a token indicating they're "ready". Pick whomever makes the most sense to go first. After their turn, their status changes to "done" and they get to "popcorn" and pick who goes next. Repeat. When everyone's gone, everyone switches back to "ready" and play continues with the next round. Freeform, scalable, and allows for some strategy (i.e. if you're last, you can pick yourself as first the next round and basically get two turns in a row. But monsters can of course do that too so sometimes it makes sense to let them go earlier.)
I love popcorn initiative. It's fast and it gets players talking and strategizing. One of the worst parts of "rank initiative" is knowing it will be up to 15 minutes until you get to make a meaningful choice again.
@@abrahm8025 Yeah I forgot to mention that, player gets to choose but it's best when everyone is talking and planning together. Plus if the plan starts to fail you can make adjustments.
We do popcorn as well and man it has made the combats so much faster and tactically minded, we cooperate way more with eachother and do way more actions thats not just do damage because we can immediatly pop to someone that might benefit from the set up we just did. And people become way more attentive than just sitting idly waiting for your turn, you dont know if its gonna be your turn, you maybe even want to be attentive to advocate for your turn to be next because you see your teammate do something cool and you get a idea to build of that.
Scrolled down to look for someone mentioning this. The one issue I have run into here is that discussion over who goes next can take a bit of time. The problem tends to disappear once players get familiar with all their characters' abilities, though.
@@khpa3665 you had issues with that? I found popcorn lending itself to be more instinctive and just go go go, or atleast being more active as a player with "ey i can pop on next!"
Dramatic initiative not only supports the story but it also greatly encourages tactical play! In order to figure out who should go next players need to consider their actions constantly, not just when the die tells them. I think the only benefit of pure ranked initiative is it acts as a reward/punishment for the choices the players made at character creation. LANCER has my preferred method: "dramatic side initiative" but no roll, players always go first.
Dramatic initiative seems great, for the right group. There could easily be groups where more experienced or more assertive players kinda take over from those who are less so. Now if this is right for those characters and everyone is cool with it, np. But if it doesn't make sense for the story or someone feels left out, that's bad. Turn based systems don't have this problem, but of course don't have the benefits of narrative initiative either. It's good Bob has laid out lots of alternatives so we can find our best option!
Bob. Your videos are the best and I love them. I also love that you don't insult our intelligence by using click-bait titles. Otherwise, we probably wouldn't watch them as that's a sure way to say the content can't stand on it's own. Thanks for continuing to make these. I look forward to watching many more.
The Dark Eye (Das Schwarze Auge) has an Initiative score (INI) which is the average of Courage (COU) and Agility (AGI). Plus or minus a point or two from perks and flaws (advantages and disadvantages). Then a d6 is added at the start of combat. There's a bit more but that's the basics. My homebrew is d12+Proficiency Die. Incapacitated characters are automatically last. Ties are simultaneous actions.
I like a simple "ally turn/enemy turn" aproach, with wjoever goes first being either who initiates or whoever side has the highest average DEX. Then all allies can play together and have all the synergy
I love these videos, that give an overview… that opens my horizon and I don’t have to try it myself. So thank you very much, Bob, for providing your experiences with these topics ❤
There's one other initiative type I've heard about, that could be interesting for you since your group likes changing the order every round. It's called clock initiative, or sometimes tick-based initiative. The idea is that: -You have a clock with X segments (typically 6, 8 or 12). At the start of combat, you place tokens on the clock for each player character and monster. You do that by counting, counterclockwise, an amount of segments equal to their initiative score. Or, in some versions, they roll for their initial spot on the clock. -The clock has a hand that you rotate clockwise, until it finds a segment with someone on it. When it does, it's that person's turn. -On their turn, players can take actions with a different "speed" or "duration". For example, using an object could have a high speed/low duration, but attacking could have a low speed/high duration, and doing a power attack could have an even lower speed/higher duration. -When the player takes that action, you move their token on the clock, by a number of segments equal to the speed/duration of the action. Clockwise if you're using durations, counterclockwise if you're using speeds. Either way, the idea is that if you take slow actions, your turn will take longer to come back to you. You can also have some special stuff happen every time the clock does one full rotation, like terrain effects or a countdown to something bad happening, to make things a bit spicier. It's super easy to do with pen and paper, you just draw a circle with some segments and put a bunch of tokens on there, plus one extra token for the clock's hand. And just like how your players like it, the turn order completely changes from moment to moment. I think it's used in Hackmaster and Exalted 2E.
I am using a version at the moment that I don't know the name for, but it was inspired by professor DM. at the begnining of the turn, all players announce their intended action and then everyone rolls a d20 with the relevant modifier for their action. that roll is both the attack roll and also the initiative roll. If you roll high you go first and you are also very likely to hit your target, if you roll low, chances are you missed or fumbled the shot. I use a player -facing system, so the enemies don't usually roll into initiative, and they usually go last, or as narrative/dramatic initiative.
I like the stance idea, I'm thinking to allow players to choose a stance where an "engaging" stance gives bonuses to attack and initiative, but a "reactive" stance gives an initiative penalty and a benefit to reactions.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Popcorn Initiative. Whoever tries to do something first in combat goes first. Whenever someone ends a turn, they pick who goes next (player or monster) as long as their choice hasn't had a turn that round yet. The DM picks who goes next after a monster turn. The last person in initiative gets to pick who starts the next initiative (including themselves). This makes combat really fluid, even from round to round. If one side goes all at once, the opposing side is forced to all go together and can take a "double turn" if they wish because they end initiative. To keep track of who has yet to go, each player can put a little token or die in front of them, which they flip when they start their turn. At the end of the round, everyone flips their tokens back upright at the same time.
I’m dying 😂 Before I clicked on the video I knew there was no way you weren’t using the Pokemon encounter music. I can’t wait to try Daggerheart - I’m definitely fascinated by that style of initiative since it seems very flow-y and intuitive
My homebrew initiative for 13th Age. Players can go before or after monsters. If they go before, they have their complete turn. If they go after, they can do one of two things for free, no action necessary: - *Recall Knowledge* (as in Pathfinder 2e): Ask a question about the monster, roll high on a skill check, and I will answer honestly. Roll low and I will only grant you some basic information, such as its level and its name. - *Swashbuckle.* Swinging on chandeliers, pulling rugs, that sorta thing. Often costing an action in many game systems and thus not worth it. If you go after a monster, this is a free action for you. It might still require a skill check, but it's at least guaranteed to not dig into your action economy. The result mechanically is often an improvised -2 to enemy defenses, +2 to player hit, stops movement, or something in that area.
Hi Bob, I'd like to add some methods that I have personally used, with success (for the most part) The first is a variant of the freestyle initiative - but each player has a coin or token with 2 distinct sides. When a player or the GM goes, the coin is flipped. The new round begins when everyone has flipped their coin. This can also trigger certain lair effects or special abilities. 'When the boss monster starts its turn with tails, it summons 1d4-1 minions. Or, when the heads round begins, all players must make a save against X. Another is similar to the method you described for Monsters all go on 11, but I change the order based on how difficult the fight is intended to be. With +5/-5 based on circumstance. Easy encounter init 5, regular init 10, difficult init 15, boss fight init 20. Makes players feel strong against weaksauce enemy, but makes them start to sweat against the big bads. I would also suggest with the card initiative you just elect the one card that signifies the bad guys. That card is always used and basically means its the GM's turn. Should help in the edge case of not remembering what card means which monster
@BobWorldBuilder thank you! I came up with the coin one after using the Daggerheart optional 3 action token limit rule. But then broke it down to just one per person. I'd use fear abilities on the token side with a little ghost on it (fear be scary)
@@BobWorldBuilder It's a lot like your card homebrew. Except you just deal cards (1-10) to your players. Some abilities let you choose from two cards. It also leads to some cool tactics. You can swap your turn (once) with another player or monster. Meaning you can go "Sam, you have to heal Jessica, you go first" and swap your 1 with their 10. Or try to "bait out the monster" by swapping your early turn with their late turn. Plus everyone has their cards right in front of them - easy visual for everyone on who goes next. It's fast, visual and brings some fun chaos and energy. Will the monsters go next? Will you get two turns in a row (last and then first?). There's an added boon in that some Dragonbane options are reactions - you use your turn before your initiative (to dodge, parry, etc) so you flip your card over letting everyone know you are out of initiative. It's really fun.
I play Scion 2e and they use ranked initiative (with a dramatic flare?) but the ranks can be filled by whoever they feel suits it best. Just keep track of when a PC rank is and when an NPC rank is: The GM maybe wants the boss leader to go first to boost morale in his minions, he takes the first NPC slot. The PC's maybe need a healing spell first so the healer takes the first PC slot.
My group's been testing out Shadow of the Weird Wizard, and we're enjoying its initiative system. It's actually a monster-favored side initiative system. Monsters *always* go first, but if a PC hasn't used their reaction when a round ends, they can choose to "Seize the Initiative" and go before the monsters do in the next round. Regardless of which side goes when, whichever side is "active" (fast-acting PCs, monsters, or PCs) the individuals in that side act in whatever order they choose within their side's turn. It rewards players for thinking and acting tactically, but provides enough narrative freedom for the players to act when it makes sense of them to act. For me, as the Sage (GM), my monsters just go during their side's turn, in whatever order makes most sense for me.
I still like the old 2e version where you rolled for initiative every round and it was a combination of luck, weaponspeed (small and light weapons quick and big heavy weapons slow) and dexterity that made up initiative. With order shifting every round it makes combat more dynamic and flowing and not static as with most of the versions used today and that are presented in this video.
We play Shadowdark, but we homebrewed initiative that looks a lot like DC20. Except we let players choose their order instead of ranked and monsters go based on monster lvl. Dramatic-Alternating-Initiative.
Mausritter also uses side initiative: every player rolls a DEX save, those who pass go before the enemies and those who fail go after. Pathfinder 2e uses rank initiative but it has a narrative component: you can choose whatever skill you think it makes sense in the narrative. So if the combat starts and you were in hiding, you can roll Stealth(DEX) as your initiative. If you were talking with the enemies and try to surprise them, you can roll Diplomacy(CHA), etcetera. The One Ring initiative sounds very cool! Unifying initiative and map positions into stances is a great idea. Savage World uses card initiative! You give playing cards to everyone, aces go first, then K, Q, J, etc. And the Joker card allows you to play whenever you want, even interrupting other character's turns. There's lots of great ideas out there! This was a great video :)
I didn't think I would be interested by initiative as a topic after almost 20 years of playing TTRPGs... but this was actually very in-depth, interesting and practical. Well done!
Our 1e D&D group uses a method that I think originally came from...Dragon Magazine? Anyway, the round is broken down into 10 segments. Each round, everyone rolls a d10 (no modifiers), and that's the segment you go on. Spellcasters roll a d4 to see which segment they *begin* casting their spell, and then it takes a number of segments to complete as per the spell description in the PHB. This makes it even more important to protect your casters, since taking any damage during that casting time will ruin the spell (no concentration checks in 1e!). And the wizard has to decide if they're going to play it safe and just pop off a 1-segment Magic Missile, or take their chances and try to get off that 5-segment Cloudkill.
Tag Team Initiative: Everyone rolls their initiative like normal D&D, but any allies that roll sequentially get grouped together and act simultaneously (eg, if the order is Player A, Enemy A, Player B, Player C, Enemy B then players B&C take their turns at the exact same time). Any characters that get grouped like this get big bonuses to creative teamwork -- the barbarian can throw the rogue, the paladin can guard the wizard, Medic can run around behind Heavy, etc. The rules are pretty light, usually giving advantage when characters work together and letting them share resources, and it can now warrant a player willingly dropping their initiative to match their partner. It also helps speed up initiative when fighting large numbers of enemies, because the DM can group them based on roles from the get-go (like having all the goblin archers act as one unit with one roll). Still testing it out for my homebrew, but I like it so far!
Session Initiative: Roll initiative at the beginning of the session, and that’s your initiative roll for the rest of the session, no matter how many combats we have. DM pre-rolls monsters or uses 10 + Dex modifier. Allows us to slip seamlessly into combat but allows for turn order variety and doesn’t doesn’t negate choices of players who chose high Dex or Harengon or whatever.
Hot take: the AD&D model of initiative with action time (different actions have different times modifiers +1d10, and then you go in order of how fast your action comes) is fun because it incorporates strategy into initiative and action choice instead of merely trying to make initiative determination the least possibly visible. It also adds a layer of suspense in wether you will be able to escape or counter an attack strategically. Loved playing a quick-firing enchanter that would charm foes before they could even draw their sword (because, yes, even drawing your weapon has a weighted time for those who didn't know).
I use a method similar to yours. I roll for all the monsters in the encounter using the bonus of the monster closest to the party. After I roll, the PCs roll to beat it. Those that do act first (in any order), and then the monsters, then the PCs that failed. We re-roll each round. Another thing I do to spice up encounters with solo or boss monsters is let the monster act after EACH PC's turn. They do not get any multi-attacks of course, just one single action, but it makes those enemies feel more dangerous and memorable.
Awesome, thanks for researching! 🙂 I'll add another initiative method for small groups which takes free-style to the extreme: No Initiative, No Turns. When the DM says "Go", combat begins -- everyone starts moving, rolling to-hit/damage, casting spells etc. at the same time (DM pauses play to resolve spells or complex actions). I think this would come the closest to simulating real world melee, instead of turning combat into an I go/You go board game. Ok this method could break down into complete chaos - but at least it would be tense & exciting, a Conan style free-wheeling brawl. No more bored players on their phones, or 2 hour combat sessions!
Great video, Bob! My favorite style is a form of side initiative that combines simplicity and speed: 1. 1D6 roll, referee vs a player, each representing a side, highest goes first. 2. If there are more than two factions/sides involved, the ref rolls for each NPC side separately. 3. Roll again at the start of every round to keep things spicy and unpredictable. 4. Players go clockwise around the table to keep things organized. In my experience, there is nothing as simple, organized, straightforward, and effective as this style of side initiative while still maintaining an element of risk that always keeps everyone on their toes.
Yes, I like chapter headers. Chapters are good for looking up parts in a video after you've already watched it, so if I want to come back here to refresh myself on an idea you give, it's easier to find it in the video
an alternative initiative rule for Fabula Ultima (described in some errata/suggestions in the creator's discord) goes like this: Turns alternate between sides (player > monster > player > monster > etc.) until everyone has gone. When it is a player turn, players chose someone who hasn't gone yet to take a turn. When it is an enemy turn, the GM chooses an enemy who hasn't gone yet to take a turn. If the monsters are just rank-and-file baddies, the players get the first turn. if a boss is present, the boss gets the first turn. It feels great to just immediately jump into combat for most encounters and simply ask "who's up first" and on the flip-side, when it's a boss, it feels great to have a boss make a strong first impression by using something like a breath weapon or a high-level spell and set the tone for the rest of the battle, then again asking the players "alright, who's up first" It does come with some caveats of course. First, if sides are unbalanced, the turn order may look more like player > enemy > enemy > player > enemy > enemy > etc. which is a bit more brain power on the GM to figure out how to space out enemy turns. Second, if you've got a sheepish party, there might be a lot of "no really, it's okay. You can go first. I insist" in the beginning, delaying the next turn as the party decides who should go. And finally, if you've got very tactically-minded players, an optimal turn order will quickly make itself apparent, and following that order all the time may make encounters begin to feel same-y. like "cleric goes first and applies buffs. wizard goes next to apply debuffs. fighter goes next to take the front line. Rogue goes last now that everyone's in range of an ally for sneak attack"
I didn’t see Procedural Initiative on here! I think older versions of D&D used this but essentially what you are doing determines when you go. The way I run it is: Determine magic, Ranged, Melee, Spells activate. I love how it locks magic users into casting a spell that might not be the best option by the time it goes off and makes spell casting seem like more of a process and not instant. I use this initiative with enemies only attacking if a player misses their attack or fails their spell.
@@stevdor6146 if I recall correctly this might have been included in BECMII?? I’ve read so many editions of DND the first few editions start to blend lol
One of the last methods I've seen that I feel like would suit my group is the Shadow of the Weird Wizard one: - Players choose if they want to burn their reaction - the order is as followed: - Players who burned their reaction - Monsters - Players who didn't burn their reaction (meaning they also have a reaction during the Monsters turn)
I really enjoyed this video! Tegwyn Saga -- my fairly complicated fantasy RPG -- uses a sort of One Ring-inspired stance-side initiative system. Roll Wits at the start of battle to determine which side goes first. (If one side is bigger than the other, it can only roll for as many creatures as the smaller side has.) Each round, everyone declares stances. Then, everyone in aggressive stance goes first, starting with the side that won initiative. Next, neutral stance, starting with the side that won initiative. Finally, defensive stance, starting with the side that won initiative. Multiple creatures on the same stance and side can go in whatever order they want. Aggressive gets an accuracy bonus and evasion penalty; defensive gets the reverse, much like in TOR. This mixes players and enemies together, which is important in a game where it's fairly common to go down in 1 or 2 hits. (In fact, I've noticed it's such an advantage to go first that I'm thinking about ways to make the defensive bonus better and the aggressive penalty steeper.) It also avoids having to sort and track numbers like you do in ranked initiative, and you can change every round without having to redo anything. The disadvantages are that it's not as easy to understand as other initiative systems, it's not necessarily obvious to players why purely side-based wouldn't work for game balance, and it's tricky to get the stance bonuses/penalties right given how helpful it is to strike first.
I'm really digging the Cairn initiative rules. I run it like that: 1. I describe the intentends of the monsters (attack, flee, talk, using some kind of power, whatever) 2. I ask the players what are the intents of their character (the same, run, fight, talk, etc.) 3. Every players rolls their DEX stats. If pass, they can act before the monsters. A fail, they act after de monsters. 4. Rinse and repeat With this I can garantee that the players: Knows the risks and position of the other players and NPC; Knows what the other players wants to do; Knows the scene; Feels that the combat is happening all at the same time; Don't lose the steam from the transition between the "talky-talky" and the "fighty-fighty". I can describe everything that happened on that round, which make the players well aware of the combat situation My intentios is to homebrew this rule to the Shadowdark campaing that I'm preparing right now. I don't know if it will work as fine, but the experience so far is very satisfying edit: I'm playing Cairn with a group of 6 players (5 PC)
I don't really have time to describe it, but I really recommend you to look up how initiative works in the different editions of Shadowrun. 3e, 4/5e, and 6e specifically. It is quite different than the usual systems.
I love group initiative, love it. I actually think it works better, not worse, with large groups because the thing is, the more players you have, the longer individual initiative takes to suss out. The fact that doing it group style allows re-rolling it each round also makes combat much more dynamic and makes players think more, as if they are going first for the round, they could be facing 2 rounds of enemy turns before they go again, this makes for interesting tactical thinking. The fact everything is happening at once also allows for more cinematic descriptions of the action if the Judge is experienced with this system.
Okay, little late to the party, but I watched this video three times to think it through and catch all the details. First and foremost, this video was awesome and probably one of the most useful I've watched. Thank you, Bob. Second of all, I came to a very similar homebrew initiative to your last example. Allowing people's attack rolls and actions stand in for an initiative roll makes them think more critically about the battle and how they initiate. The only difference is that I mix it in with side initiative, their successes decide who goes first and then it swaps back and forth until we get back to the top. In an AP system, it becomes much easier to allow those actions to stay happened and move on without having to readjust, but it can work for DnD as well. Nothing revolutionary on my end, just wanted to share how helpful this video was
I personally love using what I call a segmented initiative DC system. Im sure some games have used this before but i personally havent seen it used: - The GM sets an intiaitive DC for the encounter. Higher DC favors the monsters, lower DC favors the players (surprise, etc. would be handled by the GM lowering the DC). - Each player and each group of monsters roll against the DC. Players that roll =/ over the DC succeed, and monsters that roll =/ under the DC succeed. - Players that succeeded go first, then monsters that succeeded, then players that failed, then monsters that failed. Players can interweave their turns as they like, moving before an ally fireballs, then shooting an arrow etc. Thats it! I use this over traditional side initiative for three big reasons: - It has the benefits of side initiative (allowing players to interweave turns and combo while being quick to determine) without leading to as much "Rocket Tag". - Faster characters can add a bonus to their roll and feel faster. - Initiative is really fast to call. GM says "Roll Initiative! If you get a 5 or higher, youre up!" while still rolling, and play proceeds seamlessly
Man, I really wish you would have brought up Balsera style-initiative. BS-I is when the player who've just went, can choose the next player to go in the initiative order. I think it really does wonders for the attention span of the group as a whole, knowing that you could be the very next player taking your turn is always exciting. furthermore, I really like the cinematic feel it gives when you can perfectly set up your best friend for the fastball special and the like.
One that wasnt mentioned that im not sure how it could work in games like D&D: Simultaneously, delayed result initative. This can be seen in games like Avatar Legends TTRPG and Starfinders ship combat. Essentially, there are different phases of the round and what you want to do (or the ship position youre occupying for starfinder) determines when you act. Players quickly lock in their actions, then enemies. However, nothing "resolves" until the end of the round. So even if you remove someone from a fight, they still finish their set action for the round. This helps to mitigate the tactical advantage of systems where all PCs go first.
This is a great intro to different initiative systems! The question for me is - what is the core goal for initiative, and what are these different systems providing? - Do players and GMs want variety in combat turns to keep things different and interesting, and arguably "fair", and let the dice randomness determine the turn order? - Do GMs want to be able to quickly jump into the combat to keep the story moving without fiddling around too much? - Do players feel like they want the ability to craft their characters to gain an advantage in combat to go before monsters? - Do GMs want to be able to insert monster turn order between PCs to keep the battle dramatic and have a back and forth? Maybe these goals change between the types of scenes, and a different initiative system makes sense, but at the cost of potentially confusing the players on what action do they need to take to roll initiative? 🤔
I hate switching initiative at each round, it usually means that spells and abilites have the chance to last more or less if your turn goes up and down the initiative. If the sistem has a bonus to the initiative then the static ranked is the best one, if all the pc have the same stats then clockwise is ok
Just curious but why do you like it? While it can be faster, especially with larger groups. It can also be frustrating. When I played with a group that used it I absolutely hated it! If you roll 2nd highest but are sitting to the right of the player that rolled highest then you end up going last... Happened to my high dex character at least once or twice per session. It was really frustrating. Good thing I wasn't playing an Assassin Rogue that relied on going before their enemies. I now mostly play online in Fantasy Grounds so the official initiative system works really well since FG tracks imitative for us.
@@Thomas-np3gi I don't use it in D&D. At least not right now. Roll20's initiative tracker does all the work for you, and my group is scattered across America, so that's what we use. Out of all the initiative systems I've tried, though, clockwise is my favorite.
My favourite initiative is reverse call order initiative. First: On each turn everyone in the fight rolls initiative. Second: Everyone in the fight calls their actions and targets from lowest roll to highest. Third: You execute every action in the fight from the highest initiative to the lowest. This is very laborous, and generally requires a different action economy than the one in d20 fantasy games. (I think Vampire the Masquerade 3rd edition or Dark Ages: Vampire is the last one that used it) So it is designed for a type of game where fights are deadly, over in 1-3 rounds, and larger fights are generally only featured once every couple of sessions. But it creates an incredibly reactive and interesting way to plan out a fight if you have the patience and system for it.
Great Video! We use CARD INITIATIVE using poker cards with really big numbers. So everyone draws a card, places it on the table for everyone to see and we simply go from highest to lowest. If anyone has advantage he can draw 2 cards and keep the better one. I really like this method because it’s fast and everyone can see instantly the turn order of all combatants. It’s just important to use poker cards with big numbers and different colors so you can quickly tell at a glance who goes next.
My favorite initiative is from the becmi system (classic d&d): 1. all sides declare their intentions for movement/actions/etc at the start of the round 2. each side rolls initiative (so yes group initiative) 3. Winning side performs declared movements and actions in the following order: first all movement, then all missile attacks, then spells, then melee attacks. My second favorite initiative system is 2e's which is similar but uses weapon/spell/action initiative modifiers for individual initiative.
For a couple of summers I ran a large group (12+) and I loved clockwise. More experienced players functioned as my assistant GMs to get the on deck players ready, check spell rules, etc. And I would pick up where we left off, so everyone got a chance to play. I did allow players with initiative bonuses to pick their seats.
Love having everyone declare and roll for their actions at the same time and using the test results to determine order. Fast forwarding through all the misses is a nice bonus! Seems like it wouldn't work well though if PCs had multi attack.
I haven't had a chance to try this, just tossing it out here. I really like the Mothership initiative system: each player makes a speed check, those that pass go before the monster, those that fail go after the monster. If I was to homebrew this to a d&d like game: Each player make a Dex check vs. a DC based on the monster, or situation. Character with bonuses, or advantage on initiative get to add it to their Dex check. Those that pass, go before the monsters, those that fail go after the monsters. It would be quick enough to repeat the check at the top of each combat round, if you wanted to keep it spicy, or just use it to establish the whole fight.
I've been using passive initiative similar to whats in the 5e '24 PHB for a few years now with groups between 3 and 7 players with both 5e and Shadowdark, and everyone loves it. The few differences I use are that I allow Dexterity or Wisdom to be used for initiative and I also recheck initiative at the start of each round (which usually means I do nothing, but it allows something like the Poisoned condition or Hex to have an even more dynamic feel in combat)
I really liked the MCDM initiative when I ran the playtest with a 3 player group. We ended up adopting it for our main dnd group but that group had 8 players all 10th+ level, which got kinda hard to keep track of. Flippable tokens helped but turns just took so long, though that may be more of a product of a large high level group.
I also backed that Adventurer's Tarot kickstarter and love those cards. I've been keeping track of initiative using a tip I got from pre-Shadowdark Kelsey Dionne -- she (used to?) uses cards with everyone's main stats on them as initiative cards, put in order by initative roll as a quick way to keep stats at hand and to quickly move to the next combatant. I've been doing it without the stats which I keep on a separate sheet, but with those gorgeous tarot cards. But the shuffling idea is new to me and I ***love*** it! Will run it by my players next session! Thank you!
We usually use the bandera-style (or popcorn) initiative... the person who makes the most sense starts an chooses the next PC or monster, and so on until everyone had their turn. So the PCs could just go all one after another but then have to face all the monsters and maybe all the monsters twice because they could choose themselves. In my group it works an the players are pretty aware of the importace of order in which they act if they have a plan.
My favorite initiative was for the Alternity RPG. In essence, there were 4 phases to the round. Each round you rolled to hit a target number for the quicker phases. All actions within a phase were presumed to be simultaneous (effects applied at end of phase). Characters secondary attacks were taken in later phases or at the end of the slowest phase. NPCs could roll, but each was also published with their default action phase. As a GM, it was great. I didn't keep track of anything. Just call out, anyone in Amazing phase take your actions. Resolve. Rinse and repeat for the remaining 3 phases.
I've been liking a modified chaos mode from Shadowdark. Every round players roll initiative against a DC (usually 9-15 depending on the situation) and those that beat it go before the monsters in whatever order they like. After the monsters go the rest of the PCs act in whatever order they want. This works fine for my group of 5 as often its 2-3 players that get to act at the same time so strategizing doesn't get too complicated.
Yeah another comment had a different method that also results in about half the players going before monsters and half going after, which would then be great for letting them choose their own order (like the order within their batch). I'll have to test something like this out!
Take the monster with the highest initiative modifier and add ten. Have the players roll for initiative. Two situations arise: a. Some players beat or equal this initiative number b. No player does beat this initiative number If a, then all players that beat the highest monster initative gets to act first in whatever order. Once they’ve played, monsters and the remaining players get to act individually in alternative order starting with the monsters If b, then all monsters whose initiative modifier +10 is greater than the highest player initiative act first up in whatever order. Once they’ve played, players and the remaining monsters get to act individually in alternative order starting with players. Players and monsters are free to choose amongst themselves who gets to play next
My favorite initiative system is found in the Dragonbane RPG, where you have a pool of 10 cards and at the beginning of combat each round you draw a new card. Meaning that combat and the turn order is always changing. And you can trade places in the turn order with other players so you can strategize in that way too.
Shadow of the Weird Wizard. Monsters go first, players go second. Players can use their reaction to "Take the Initiative" and go before monsters. But that means losing out on your reaction for attacks of opportunity, deflecting damage from an ally you're standing next to, and other things. In either case, whether they go before or after, players can still both move and take an action.
I've been toying with an idea of running initiative as "freeform grouped" where players declare what they want to do, and I use that to group up characters and enemies, then resolve each group as one turn, with characters and monsters rolling at the same time, and each side can optional "cancel" the others attacks by trading one of their own, so a fighter's strike might be deflected by a dragon's bite forcing them back or whatever. Could be a rule that seems fun in theory and falls about immediately, but I think it's good to try out new options as iniative does not feel like an even close to solved problem yet.
Deadlands uses a similar system you mentioned but it’s based on a regular deck of cards and it just goes in the normal highest to lowest and based on suit for ties. They also include Jokers and whomever draws one can go whenever they want that round (plus an extra bonus to stuff they do). Our GM also had us choose a card from the deck and whenever our character’s card was drawn, that character would go first that round. There were other feats and things you could take to help with initiative as well.
Thats INSANE about the card initiative system. This is almost literally how we do it at my table and I've never heard of it before. The only difference is that I outsource this to another player and they deal the cards to others and then we flip them all.
💥 Eren's ArtVenturing Guild! www.patreon.com/ArtVenturingGuild
3 FREE fantasy portraits: bit.ly/avgfreenpc
I have a new one that I have been working on over the last year and had good repor with my group. Which if smooth transition into battle and heightens dramatic moments.
Awesome portraits! 😍 Now I have four options for what my next character is going to look like, or I have to commission a specific one
Eeey, Eren is delightful to work with and just a lovely person in general. Cool to see a connection between two of my favorite TTRPG creators.
@@BetterMonsters hey mateeeeee!! Lovely to see you here and thank you for the kind words, as always!
@@SortKaffe I'm glad you liked them!! Have fun with your new characters!!
Initiative die: Each class has a different die - fast classes like monks or rogues have d4, martial have d8, wizards - d12. Everyone rolls dices and the one who rolls the lowest starts. DM rolls d6. If both PCs have the same number - the one who had smaller Initiative die starts (or at the same time if Initiative die was the same). You don't have to calculate anything. Initiative takes about 10 seconds and you don't lose the momentum of storytelling.
You can even make a Initiative tracker with just 12 position and quickly setup during initiative
Would subclasses like bladesinger or gloomstalker get a boost to their initiative die? Given their focus on speed and alertness.
How would this interact with initiative bonuses through? Advantage seems straight forward, but adding Wisdom/Intelligence/Charisma gets confusing and I'm not sure of an easy solution to that.
Haven't heard this one before! Nice
Mike Mearls suggested this I believe
I feel like I have to double up some of the orhers' quandary. What about Dexterity?
Don't get me wrong; I do like it... But wouldn't it be better suited based upon your initiative score?
So, for every +X you have, decrease the size of your die by one step.
Although, I will add that I kind of love spellcasters getting a D12... It feels almost like a callback to early editions (specifically, I think, the basic editions where spellcasters spells always triggered last).
And simultaneous initiative, also a cool feature. Where a D20 system could include simultaneous Initiative... There's just a much higher chance you get to play with it if you only have 12 options and no modifiers.
The Doctor Who RPGs “Adventures in Space and Time” and “Doctors and Daleks” have my all-time favourite initiative system, though it’s very appropriate to the show it’s based on: characters declare the kind of thing they’re doing, and then talkers go first, movers go second, doers go third, and fighters go last. Love it. Whether it’d work in a traditional fantasy game really depends on the tone, but it’s effectively a simpler, genre-focussed version of stance initiative, like you see in The One Ring.
When do the monsters act? Or are the antagonists also divided into talkers, movers etc.
Shout out to tamborine man for being a vibe. The Bard every Ranger needs in the woods.
Absolutely LOVE this style of video man, well done!! Taking notes!
Thanks, Coach! :)
Agreed. I`'ll need to get a Bluetooth mic like that with a windscreen to do more outisde videos. My first outside video has too much noise from wind. Thanksfor being an inspiration to other GameTubers, Bob!
Your own initiative method in DC20 is really cool. I like how various characters can boost their initiative with different stats based on what they are doing. It is great for groups that want a bit more intricacy and "crunch" to their game. This method is probably not for everybody, but it is very cool.
It was a pleasure collaborating with you on this... initiative, Bob! ;D (eh eh)
And thank you in advance to all the lovely folks who'll come check out my work!
Amazing artwork! I'll check out your backlog but also the Patreon perks, and consider commissioning tailor-made art for my next character
@@SortKaffe thank you very much! I really appreciate it!
My favorite is always going to be the Savage Worlds iniciative:
- You use a poker deck
- The ones with the highest card goes first, unless you have an Ace
- Joker lets you act when ever you like and get a +2 for your rolls
- If you wanna go first you can get an Edge that let's you discard 5 or lower cards
That's really interesting! Do you draw cards each round?
@@BobWorldBuilder Yeah! And when a joker gets draw you have to shuffle the deck again so another player (Or the GM!) could get it, it's really fun an interactive, there are a lot of builds around joker fishing, middle turn cards, late drawing, etc.
Also with jokers come bennies! I love Savage Worlds initiative. It's not for every kind of RPG and certainly not for many dnd-like styles of play, but it's thrilling, fun and unpredictable.
In most RPGs you don't cheer for a great initiative roll, but getting a joker in Savage Worlds is as awesome as getting a natural 20 in D&D
I just played Savage Worlds at a con and fell in love with the game and it's initiative tracker.
It was very thematic for Deadlands where it started that system.
I use the passive initiative (I call it static initiative) for Monsters. It divides the turns into 3 phases: Fast Move, Monster Move, Slow Move.
What works best about it? I don't need to know the players' numbers. I just say, "Roll initiative beat a 13." Then I say, "Fast moves go, " the players who roll high can decide their order. Then, the monsters attack. Then I say, "Slow moves go."
This works so quickly that we roll initiative every round to keep things exciting.
Nice. A couple other comments mentioned that Cosmere and Shadow of the Demon Lord have methods like this. I really like the idea of basially splitting the "normal sized" group in half, and that way it's less chaotic for them to choose their own order
@BobWorldBuilder I've been doing it for about a year, and it's my favorite approach. Across 4 decades, I've tried many different ways... sides, cards, clockwise...
But this is many favorite.
I do the same. Roll each round, fast PCs act, then all monsters, then remaining PCs. Been playing for about 25 years and it's become my favourite method.
So, does everyone roll initiative and then players are divided in half based on who rolled above/below a 13? I'm curious to try this out but want to make sure I'm understanding correctly!
@@sonicexpert986
As I understand it all players roll, and they could all roll higher than 13 and all be "fast" but statistically about half will be slow.
My favourite idea for initiative system is like ranked initiative, but everyone declares what they do in reverse initiative order, and then actions are resolved in normal initiative order. That means if you get high initiative as a rogue, you can see the archer draw their bow on the wizard as they declare their action, and then choose to attack that archer specifically.
You reroll initiative every round so it might be better for smaller groups, but I like the idea of reacting to characters before they complete their actions.
That's a cool idea! I feel like I might end up forgetting what I said certain monsters would do. But I like that idea of fast characters still getting to go first while also knowing what everyone is doing.
Are you a MtG player, by any chance?
@@BobWorldBuilder This is very similar to Dominion Rules RPG, wich take combat (duels formost) to another level of complexity (still a little crunchy if you have too many people at the table)... still it's very interesting
The Cosmere RPG has a really great initiative system imo
It's not released yet, but the beta test materials are available for free online. To determine initiative order, each player announces if they'd rather take a fast turn or slow turn. If they take a fast turn, they'll go first but only have two actions for that round, and if they take a slow turn, they'll get three actions but go after the characters taking fast turns. The order for characters is always: fast PCs > fast NPCs > slow PCs > slow NPCs. Within each group, players just decide among themselves who gets to go first (it wasn't a problem at all in my group of 5, but I can see it slowing things down in bigger or newer groups). Just from the beta rules, I can tell the system is gonna be a new favorite for me and my group. The player in our group who had never read any cosmere books still had a great time and didn't feel lost at all. It's definitely worth checking out!
That sounds a lot like the initiative system of Shadow of the Demon Lord 🤔
@Alleister207 Yeah, they sound really similar, but I haven't played Shadow of the Demon Lord. From what I can tell, the Cosmere RPG gives a bit more actions per round (it does them similarly to Pathfinder 2E). It also kinda took and (in my opinion) improved the advantage and threat system from fantasy flight's Star Wars RPG (the lead designer of the Cosmere RPG was also a designer for FFG so it makes sense. The Cosmere RPG does a really great job of mixing in a bunch of elements from other systems and getting them to work well together. The death and injury system is also great
Interesting! I know Nimble 5e does something similar, granting a different number of actions per round, but the number of actions is based on a roll. I like how in this Cosmere version, players get to choose their order, and splitting them into two groups means you probably have only 2-3 player characters in each of those groups.
@BobWorldBuilder Yeah, my players were able to get the hang of it immediately, and we never spent more than a minute determining initiative order. Being able to mix up initiative each round also made things feel a bit more tactical and kept things fresh. I really recommend checking out the beta rules for the RPG. It broke the record for most funding for a game on kickstarter (and is the third most funded project overall). As I mentioned, one of my players hadn't read any of the books, but he took to it just as much as the others who have read them all. I also really recommend the books if you're looking for a big fantasy series to sink your teeth into.
@kaladongstormguy it also allows the dm to mix up intiative order too. Really fun back and forth especially when the players realize the boss hasn't gone yet only to get hit by a huge aoe swing that has advantage and then the player who's lowest gets stabbed for 2 focus points lol.
Troika is a wacky one. Like the card initiative, but with tokens in a bag. Everyone gets multiple tokens in the bag, and there is a token that marks the round end where you put tokens back in the bag. So more chaotic then what you described, as it’s possible to get multiple turns or no turns in a given round of combat.
To balance this, in troika you can deal damage on the defense. So the turn doesn’t determine who can deal damage, but instead all the other stuff
Came to post this! I’m super intrigued by it (like a lot of the ideas in Troika) but haven’t had a chance to run/play it yet.
Before we start the session each player rolls 6 initiative rolls that I record on an index card along with my 3 generic initiative rolls. Combat breaks out they roll a d6 and that row is the initiative for the combat. Quicker in the moment and allows better flow.
Cool idea!
The German RPG Splittermond has a very innovative board-game initiative system. You have a board with a "tick bar", numbered fields going in a circle. Every field represents a tick of the clock. Different actions cost different amount of time. Maybe 10 ticks to load your bow, 2 ticks to shoot it, 5 ticks to run half your movement and so on. The player token on the lowest number is always acting first (earliest in time) and moves forward the amount of ticks the chosen action takes.
The interesting thing is that this adds a novel strategic component to decide on the actions you want to take before it's your enemy's turn. And it does this without the overhead of rolling initiative every round (you only roll once for the tick you start on in the very beginning)
The system has a few konks I think could be rounded out, but I love the general idea of representing time this way.
Feng Shui and Hackmaster have used tick up initiative for a long time, although I think Splittermond is the best implementation of it. It only really works in games with Action Point mechanics, though, so it would be a lot of work to import into 5e.
Exalted uses it too. It's equally fun and daunting to have to go through your potential actions and attempt to "tune" them to match your strategy.
Are you going to go with faster actions and attempt more of a "whittling" strategy? Or maybe you'll accept going slower with the intention that you'll just obliterate foes in a single blow and they won't get to stack up attacks on you or your allies.
The best part is that everyone can see the combat tracker, and strategize around it when it's not their turn.
There’s a blog, A Knight at the Opera, who made a post trying to compile EVERY Initiative Method and they came pretty close! I recommend reading it!
I use Speed Sandwich personally! At the start of each round all players roll +Dex against the Medium DC for the encounter level. Players who beat it go Fast and take their turns simultaneously, then the Enemies go, then the Slow players go.
Bob first being chased by large vehicles, and now also a Tambourine Man? I fear next video will bring us a whole orchestra
He should have asked the to sing a song for him, since man, since he wasn't sleepy are there was no place he was going to for a while
Lancer has an interesting initiative rule as well.
(Simplified) explanation: There is player team and enemy team. A player takes the first turn in a round, then an enemy, then back to a different player, different enemy and so on. When the sides have different number, the larger will take the remaining turns at the end of the round.
Soudns cool!
This is how Draw Steel works as well, it's awesome! Really makes your side feel like a team that gets to plan and coordinate and create combos.
You forgot to mention that it's also a "popcorn" style where the previous player determines who is next. To sum it up: the player team goes first and they all decide who that is going to be. After the player goes that player decides who is going next on their side. Next is a GM controlled character, and then the player the previous player decided to go next. etc.
@@Illithid72 ah gotcha. Draw Steel is different from that. Just each side alternating in whatever order they want until everyone has taken a turn. No one decides beforehand who will go next.
@@NickPierson that reply was for the original poster. Sorry for the confusion.
My D&D group just swapped out the D20 for a D10. Makes the PCs modifiers more impactful.
You get more collisions that way. Maybe double the modifiers instead?
I've also used a d12 for randomization. For the same reason that OP stated, and it also puts those poor, forsaken d12s to a bit more use.
Finally! Into the Odd gets talked about here!
Finally got it at Gen Con :) Kinda shocking how closely Cairn from this game haha
@@BobWorldBuilder Into the ODD (Original D&D) has been a huge inspiration for a large chunk of NSR titles such as Cairn and Knave. It's a really cool branch.
I Love ALL Bob World Builder videos! And I am not the first to say that.
the latest version of Fabula Ultima has essentially the same initiative system as DC20 variant rule (i.e. alternating and players choose their order), only with a single change - unless the monster you're fighting is a boss, the PCs always go first. I like it because it makes rolling for initiative more special and more scary.
Popcorn initiative: Players and monster (groups) start each round with a token indicating they're "ready". Pick whomever makes the most sense to go first. After their turn, their status changes to "done" and they get to "popcorn" and pick who goes next. Repeat. When everyone's gone, everyone switches back to "ready" and play continues with the next round.
Freeform, scalable, and allows for some strategy (i.e. if you're last, you can pick yourself as first the next round and basically get two turns in a row. But monsters can of course do that too so sometimes it makes sense to let them go earlier.)
I love popcorn initiative. It's fast and it gets players talking and strategizing. One of the worst parts of "rank initiative" is knowing it will be up to 15 minutes until you get to make a meaningful choice again.
@@abrahm8025 Yeah I forgot to mention that, player gets to choose but it's best when everyone is talking and planning together. Plus if the plan starts to fail you can make adjustments.
We do popcorn as well and man it has made the combats so much faster and tactically minded, we cooperate way more with eachother and do way more actions thats not just do damage because we can immediatly pop to someone that might benefit from the set up we just did. And people become way more attentive than just sitting idly waiting for your turn, you dont know if its gonna be your turn, you maybe even want to be attentive to advocate for your turn to be next because you see your teammate do something cool and you get a idea to build of that.
Scrolled down to look for someone mentioning this. The one issue I have run into here is that discussion over who goes next can take a bit of time. The problem tends to disappear once players get familiar with all their characters' abilities, though.
@@khpa3665 you had issues with that? I found popcorn lending itself to be more instinctive and just go go go, or atleast being more active as a player with "ey i can pop on next!"
Dramatic initiative not only supports the story but it also greatly encourages tactical play! In order to figure out who should go next players need to consider their actions constantly, not just when the die tells them. I think the only benefit of pure ranked initiative is it acts as a reward/punishment for the choices the players made at character creation.
LANCER has my preferred method: "dramatic side initiative" but no roll, players always go first.
Solid points!
Dramatic initiative seems great, for the right group. There could easily be groups where more experienced or more assertive players kinda take over from those who are less so. Now if this is right for those characters and everyone is cool with it, np. But if it doesn't make sense for the story or someone feels left out, that's bad. Turn based systems don't have this problem, but of course don't have the benefits of narrative initiative either.
It's good Bob has laid out lots of alternatives so we can find our best option!
I read chapter headers.
Perhaps you found a larp-er in the wild? Their initiative is usually determined by who screams and throws a bean-bag first.
I love card initiative. Great video Bob
Thanks!
I use the MCDM RPG rules for initiative and it works like a charm, the combat feels a lot more dynamic
Awesome!
Bob. Your videos are the best and I love them. I also love that you don't insult our intelligence by using click-bait titles. Otherwise, we probably wouldn't watch them as that's a sure way to say the content can't stand on it's own. Thanks for continuing to make these. I look forward to watching many more.
The Dark Eye (Das Schwarze Auge) has an Initiative score (INI) which is the average of Courage (COU) and Agility (AGI). Plus or minus a point or two from perks and flaws (advantages and disadvantages). Then a d6 is added at the start of combat. There's a bit more but that's the basics.
My homebrew is d12+Proficiency Die. Incapacitated characters are automatically last. Ties are simultaneous actions.
I like a simple "ally turn/enemy turn" aproach, with wjoever goes first being either who initiates or whoever side has the highest average DEX. Then all allies can play together and have all the synergy
Totally, it's a great method!
I love these videos, that give an overview… that opens my horizon and I don’t have to try it myself. So thank you very much, Bob, for providing your experiences with these topics ❤
"Hey, Mr. Tambourine Man, play a song for me"... He! He!
Interesting and inspiring: thank you.
There's one other initiative type I've heard about, that could be interesting for you since your group likes changing the order every round. It's called clock initiative, or sometimes tick-based initiative. The idea is that:
-You have a clock with X segments (typically 6, 8 or 12). At the start of combat, you place tokens on the clock for each player character and monster. You do that by counting, counterclockwise, an amount of segments equal to their initiative score. Or, in some versions, they roll for their initial spot on the clock.
-The clock has a hand that you rotate clockwise, until it finds a segment with someone on it. When it does, it's that person's turn.
-On their turn, players can take actions with a different "speed" or "duration". For example, using an object could have a high speed/low duration, but attacking could have a low speed/high duration, and doing a power attack could have an even lower speed/higher duration.
-When the player takes that action, you move their token on the clock, by a number of segments equal to the speed/duration of the action. Clockwise if you're using durations, counterclockwise if you're using speeds. Either way, the idea is that if you take slow actions, your turn will take longer to come back to you.
You can also have some special stuff happen every time the clock does one full rotation, like terrain effects or a countdown to something bad happening, to make things a bit spicier.
It's super easy to do with pen and paper, you just draw a circle with some segments and put a bunch of tokens on there, plus one extra token for the clock's hand. And just like how your players like it, the turn order completely changes from moment to moment.
I think it's used in Hackmaster and Exalted 2E.
I am using a version at the moment that I don't know the name for, but it was inspired by professor DM. at the begnining of the turn, all players announce their intended action and then everyone rolls a d20 with the relevant modifier for their action. that roll is both the attack roll and also the initiative roll. If you roll high you go first and you are also very likely to hit your target, if you roll low, chances are you missed or fumbled the shot. I use a player -facing system, so the enemies don't usually roll into initiative, and they usually go last, or as narrative/dramatic initiative.
I like the stance idea, I'm thinking to allow players to choose a stance where an "engaging" stance gives bonuses to attack and initiative, but a "reactive" stance gives an initiative penalty and a benefit to reactions.
16:05 _"I gotta show it, I brought it all this way."_ Now I imagine Bob hiking for a full week with a backpack full of RPG books ⛺
I'm surprised you didn't mention Popcorn Initiative.
Whoever tries to do something first in combat goes first. Whenever someone ends a turn, they pick who goes next (player or monster) as long as their choice hasn't had a turn that round yet. The DM picks who goes next after a monster turn. The last person in initiative gets to pick who starts the next initiative (including themselves).
This makes combat really fluid, even from round to round. If one side goes all at once, the opposing side is forced to all go together and can take a "double turn" if they wish because they end initiative.
To keep track of who has yet to go, each player can put a little token or die in front of them, which they flip when they start their turn. At the end of the round, everyone flips their tokens back upright at the same time.
I’m dying 😂 Before I clicked on the video I knew there was no way you weren’t using the Pokemon encounter music. I can’t wait to try Daggerheart - I’m definitely fascinated by that style of initiative since it seems very flow-y and intuitive
My homebrew initiative for 13th Age. Players can go before or after monsters. If they go before, they have their complete turn. If they go after, they can do one of two things for free, no action necessary:
- *Recall Knowledge* (as in Pathfinder 2e): Ask a question about the monster, roll high on a skill check, and I will answer honestly. Roll low and I will only grant you some basic information, such as its level and its name.
- *Swashbuckle.* Swinging on chandeliers, pulling rugs, that sorta thing. Often costing an action in many game systems and thus not worth it. If you go after a monster, this is a free action for you. It might still require a skill check, but it's at least guaranteed to not dig into your action economy. The result mechanically is often an improvised -2 to enemy defenses, +2 to player hit, stops movement, or something in that area.
Bob don't stop be you man. Great content. I appreciate what your all about.
I really appreciate it!
Hi Bob, I'd like to add some methods that I have personally used, with success (for the most part)
The first is a variant of the freestyle initiative - but each player has a coin or token with 2 distinct sides. When a player or the GM goes, the coin is flipped. The new round begins when everyone has flipped their coin. This can also trigger certain lair effects or special abilities. 'When the boss monster starts its turn with tails, it summons 1d4-1 minions. Or, when the heads round begins, all players must make a save against X.
Another is similar to the method you described for Monsters all go on 11, but I change the order based on how difficult the fight is intended to be. With +5/-5 based on circumstance. Easy encounter init 5, regular init 10, difficult init 15, boss fight init 20. Makes players feel strong against weaksauce enemy, but makes them start to sweat against the big bads.
I would also suggest with the card initiative you just elect the one card that signifies the bad guys. That card is always used and basically means its the GM's turn. Should help in the edge case of not remembering what card means which monster
Great ideas! Haven't heard the coin one before, and I appreciate the single-card for enemies idea. That would definitely work better for me.
@BobWorldBuilder thank you! I came up with the coin one after using the Daggerheart optional 3 action token limit rule. But then broke it down to just one per person. I'd use fear abilities on the token side with a little ghost on it (fear be scary)
My players are loving the dragonbane initiative system. They love the order changing each time.
Haven't tried dragonbane, but my group likes switching it up each round as well. I'll have to check that out!
@@BobWorldBuilder It's a lot like your card homebrew. Except you just deal cards (1-10) to your players. Some abilities let you choose from two cards. It also leads to some cool tactics. You can swap your turn (once) with another player or monster. Meaning you can go "Sam, you have to heal Jessica, you go first" and swap your 1 with their 10. Or try to "bait out the monster" by swapping your early turn with their late turn. Plus everyone has their cards right in front of them - easy visual for everyone on who goes next. It's fast, visual and brings some fun chaos and energy. Will the monsters go next? Will you get two turns in a row (last and then first?).
There's an added boon in that some Dragonbane options are reactions - you use your turn before your initiative (to dodge, parry, etc) so you flip your card over letting everyone know you are out of initiative. It's really fun.
Yes, Dragonbane initiativ is much like your homebrew card method, without it is all on the GM. Try it out 😊
@@BobWorldBuilder Very similar to Forbidden Lands as well.
I play Scion 2e and they use ranked initiative (with a dramatic flare?) but the ranks can be filled by whoever they feel suits it best. Just keep track of when a PC rank is and when an NPC rank is:
The GM maybe wants the boss leader to go first to boost morale in his minions, he takes the first NPC slot.
The PC's maybe need a healing spell first so the healer takes the first PC slot.
I love ALL Bob World Builder videos!
Thank you for commenting!
My group's been testing out Shadow of the Weird Wizard, and we're enjoying its initiative system. It's actually a monster-favored side initiative system. Monsters *always* go first, but if a PC hasn't used their reaction when a round ends, they can choose to "Seize the Initiative" and go before the monsters do in the next round. Regardless of which side goes when, whichever side is "active" (fast-acting PCs, monsters, or PCs) the individuals in that side act in whatever order they choose within their side's turn. It rewards players for thinking and acting tactically, but provides enough narrative freedom for the players to act when it makes sense of them to act. For me, as the Sage (GM), my monsters just go during their side's turn, in whatever order makes most sense for me.
Yeah a couple people have mentioned Shadow of the Demon Lord's fast and slow! Sounds like a great idea!
@@BobWorldBuilder Weird Wizard is slight modification on Demon Lord, but obviously a similar concept, yeah.
I still like the old 2e version where you rolled for initiative every round and it was a combination of luck, weaponspeed (small and light weapons quick and big heavy weapons slow) and dexterity that made up initiative. With order shifting every round it makes combat more dynamic and flowing and not static as with most of the versions used today and that are presented in this video.
We play Shadowdark, but we homebrewed initiative that looks a lot like DC20. Except we let players choose their order instead of ranked and monsters go based on monster lvl. Dramatic-Alternating-Initiative.
Using monster level is a cool idea!
Mausritter also uses side initiative: every player rolls a DEX save, those who pass go before the enemies and those who fail go after.
Pathfinder 2e uses rank initiative but it has a narrative component: you can choose whatever skill you think it makes sense in the narrative. So if the combat starts and you were in hiding, you can roll Stealth(DEX) as your initiative. If you were talking with the enemies and try to surprise them, you can roll Diplomacy(CHA), etcetera.
The One Ring initiative sounds very cool! Unifying initiative and map positions into stances is a great idea.
Savage World uses card initiative! You give playing cards to everyone, aces go first, then K, Q, J, etc. And the Joker card allows you to play whenever you want, even interrupting other character's turns.
There's lots of great ideas out there! This was a great video :)
I didn't think I would be interested by initiative as a topic after almost 20 years of playing TTRPGs... but this was actually very in-depth, interesting and practical. Well done!
Thanks for the Video! I am just starting to DM a group recently. I really like the way you said you and your group does Initiative! Thanks!
Hope it helps!
Our 1e D&D group uses a method that I think originally came from...Dragon Magazine? Anyway, the round is broken down into 10 segments. Each round, everyone rolls a d10 (no modifiers), and that's the segment you go on. Spellcasters roll a d4 to see which segment they *begin* casting their spell, and then it takes a number of segments to complete as per the spell description in the PHB. This makes it even more important to protect your casters, since taking any damage during that casting time will ruin the spell (no concentration checks in 1e!). And the wizard has to decide if they're going to play it safe and just pop off a 1-segment Magic Missile, or take their chances and try to get off that 5-segment Cloudkill.
I love all Bob World Builder videos!
Maybe Bob is a forest elemental's vtuber avatar
Yes, we read chapter headers! Great vid Bob
Tag Team Initiative: Everyone rolls their initiative like normal D&D, but any allies that roll sequentially get grouped together and act simultaneously (eg, if the order is Player A, Enemy A, Player B, Player C, Enemy B then players B&C take their turns at the exact same time). Any characters that get grouped like this get big bonuses to creative teamwork -- the barbarian can throw the rogue, the paladin can guard the wizard, Medic can run around behind Heavy, etc.
The rules are pretty light, usually giving advantage when characters work together and letting them share resources, and it can now warrant a player willingly dropping their initiative to match their partner. It also helps speed up initiative when fighting large numbers of enemies, because the DM can group them based on roles from the get-go (like having all the goblin archers act as one unit with one roll). Still testing it out for my homebrew, but I like it so far!
Fastball special!
Session Initiative: Roll initiative at the beginning of the session, and that’s your initiative roll for the rest of the session, no matter how many combats we have. DM pre-rolls monsters or uses 10 + Dex modifier. Allows us to slip seamlessly into combat but allows for turn order variety and doesn’t doesn’t negate choices of players who chose high Dex or Harengon or whatever.
Hot take: the AD&D model of initiative with action time (different actions have different times modifiers +1d10, and then you go in order of how fast your action comes) is fun because it incorporates strategy into initiative and action choice instead of merely trying to make initiative determination the least possibly visible. It also adds a layer of suspense in wether you will be able to escape or counter an attack strategically.
Loved playing a quick-firing enchanter that would charm foes before they could even draw their sword (because, yes, even drawing your weapon has a weighted time for those who didn't know).
I use a method similar to yours. I roll for all the monsters in the encounter using the bonus of the monster closest to the party. After I roll, the PCs roll to beat it. Those that do act first (in any order), and then the monsters, then the PCs that failed. We re-roll each round.
Another thing I do to spice up encounters with solo or boss monsters is let the monster act after EACH PC's turn. They do not get any multi-attacks of course, just one single action, but it makes those enemies feel more dangerous and memorable.
Awesome, thanks for researching! 🙂
I'll add another initiative method for small groups which takes free-style to the extreme: No Initiative, No Turns.
When the DM says "Go", combat begins -- everyone starts moving, rolling to-hit/damage, casting spells etc. at the same time (DM pauses play to resolve spells or complex actions). I think this would come the closest to simulating real world melee, instead of turning combat into an I go/You go board game.
Ok this method could break down into complete chaos - but at least it would be tense & exciting, a Conan style free-wheeling brawl. No more bored players on their phones, or 2 hour combat sessions!
Great video, Bob!
My favorite style is a form of side initiative that combines simplicity and speed:
1. 1D6 roll, referee vs a player, each representing a side, highest goes first.
2. If there are more than two factions/sides involved, the ref rolls for each NPC side separately.
3. Roll again at the start of every round to keep things spicy and unpredictable.
4. Players go clockwise around the table to keep things organized.
In my experience, there is nothing as simple, organized, straightforward, and effective as this style of side initiative while still maintaining an element of risk that always keeps everyone on their toes.
Yes, I like chapter headers. Chapters are good for looking up parts in a video after you've already watched it, so if I want to come back here to refresh myself on an idea you give, it's easier to find it in the video
an alternative initiative rule for Fabula Ultima (described in some errata/suggestions in the creator's discord) goes like this:
Turns alternate between sides (player > monster > player > monster > etc.) until everyone has gone.
When it is a player turn, players chose someone who hasn't gone yet to take a turn.
When it is an enemy turn, the GM chooses an enemy who hasn't gone yet to take a turn.
If the monsters are just rank-and-file baddies, the players get the first turn.
if a boss is present, the boss gets the first turn.
It feels great to just immediately jump into combat for most encounters and simply ask "who's up first"
and on the flip-side, when it's a boss, it feels great to have a boss make a strong first impression by using something like a breath weapon or a high-level spell and set the tone for the rest of the battle, then again asking the players "alright, who's up first"
It does come with some caveats of course. First, if sides are unbalanced, the turn order may look more like player > enemy > enemy > player > enemy > enemy > etc. which is a bit more brain power on the GM to figure out how to space out enemy turns. Second, if you've got a sheepish party, there might be a lot of "no really, it's okay. You can go first. I insist" in the beginning, delaying the next turn as the party decides who should go. And finally, if you've got very tactically-minded players, an optimal turn order will quickly make itself apparent, and following that order all the time may make encounters begin to feel same-y. like "cleric goes first and applies buffs. wizard goes next to apply debuffs. fighter goes next to take the front line. Rogue goes last now that everyone's in range of an ally for sneak attack"
Deal cards, then ranked order. The Savage Worlds stile 😊
Nice!
Yes bob, I read the chapter headers
I didn’t see Procedural Initiative on here! I think older versions of D&D used this but essentially what you are doing determines when you go. The way I run it is: Determine magic, Ranged, Melee, Spells activate. I love how it locks magic users into casting a spell that might not be the best option by the time it goes off and makes spell casting seem like more of a process and not instant. I use this initiative with enemies only attacking if a player misses their attack or fails their spell.
i was looking for this comment, depending on what you plan to do, the initiative is modified by the procedural modifier
@@stevdor6146 if I recall correctly this might have been included in BECMII?? I’ve read so many editions of DND the first few editions start to blend lol
DC20 has got up be my favorite
Coach is cooking up some good ideas!
One of the last methods I've seen that I feel like would suit my group is the Shadow of the Weird Wizard one:
- Players choose if they want to burn their reaction
- the order is as followed:
- Players who burned their reaction
- Monsters
- Players who didn't burn their reaction (meaning they also have a reaction during the Monsters turn)
I really enjoyed this video!
Tegwyn Saga -- my fairly complicated fantasy RPG -- uses a sort of One Ring-inspired stance-side initiative system.
Roll Wits at the start of battle to determine which side goes first. (If one side is bigger than the other, it can only roll for as many creatures as the smaller side has.) Each round, everyone declares stances. Then, everyone in aggressive stance goes first, starting with the side that won initiative. Next, neutral stance, starting with the side that won initiative. Finally, defensive stance, starting with the side that won initiative. Multiple creatures on the same stance and side can go in whatever order they want. Aggressive gets an accuracy bonus and evasion penalty; defensive gets the reverse, much like in TOR.
This mixes players and enemies together, which is important in a game where it's fairly common to go down in 1 or 2 hits. (In fact, I've noticed it's such an advantage to go first that I'm thinking about ways to make the defensive bonus better and the aggressive penalty steeper.) It also avoids having to sort and track numbers like you do in ranked initiative, and you can change every round without having to redo anything. The disadvantages are that it's not as easy to understand as other initiative systems, it's not necessarily obvious to players why purely side-based wouldn't work for game balance, and it's tricky to get the stance bonuses/penalties right given how helpful it is to strike first.
This is such a useful resource, thank you!
I'm really digging the Cairn initiative rules. I run it like that:
1. I describe the intentends of the monsters (attack, flee, talk, using some kind of power, whatever)
2. I ask the players what are the intents of their character (the same, run, fight, talk, etc.)
3. Every players rolls their DEX stats. If pass, they can act before the monsters. A fail, they act after de monsters.
4. Rinse and repeat
With this I can garantee that the players:
Knows the risks and position of the other players and NPC;
Knows what the other players wants to do;
Knows the scene;
Feels that the combat is happening all at the same time;
Don't lose the steam from the transition between the "talky-talky" and the "fighty-fighty".
I can describe everything that happened on that round, which make the players well aware of the combat situation
My intentios is to homebrew this rule to the Shadowdark campaing that I'm preparing right now.
I don't know if it will work as fine, but the experience so far is very satisfying
edit: I'm playing Cairn with a group of 6 players (5 PC)
I don't really have time to describe it, but I really recommend you to look up how initiative works in the different editions of Shadowrun. 3e, 4/5e, and 6e specifically. It is quite different than the usual systems.
How so?
I love group initiative, love it. I actually think it works better, not worse, with large groups because the thing is, the more players you have, the longer individual initiative takes to suss out. The fact that doing it group style allows re-rolling it each round also makes combat much more dynamic and makes players think more, as if they are going first for the round, they could be facing 2 rounds of enemy turns before they go again, this makes for interesting tactical thinking. The fact everything is happening at once also allows for more cinematic descriptions of the action if the Judge is experienced with this system.
Great stuff! Love the look of them sir!
Okay, little late to the party, but I watched this video three times to think it through and catch all the details. First and foremost, this video was awesome and probably one of the most useful I've watched. Thank you, Bob.
Second of all, I came to a very similar homebrew initiative to your last example. Allowing people's attack rolls and actions stand in for an initiative roll makes them think more critically about the battle and how they initiate. The only difference is that I mix it in with side initiative, their successes decide who goes first and then it swaps back and forth until we get back to the top.
In an AP system, it becomes much easier to allow those actions to stay happened and move on without having to readjust, but it can work for DnD as well.
Nothing revolutionary on my end, just wanted to share how helpful this video was
I'm really glad to see you expand the games you talk about from D&D and D&D-based systems.
I personally love using what I call a segmented initiative DC system. Im sure some games have used this before but i personally havent seen it used:
- The GM sets an intiaitive DC for the encounter. Higher DC favors the monsters, lower DC favors the players (surprise, etc. would be handled by the GM lowering the DC).
- Each player and each group of monsters roll against the DC. Players that roll =/ over the DC succeed, and monsters that roll =/ under the DC succeed.
- Players that succeeded go first, then monsters that succeeded, then players that failed, then monsters that failed. Players can interweave their turns as they like, moving before an ally fireballs, then shooting an arrow etc.
Thats it!
I use this over traditional side initiative for three big reasons:
- It has the benefits of side initiative (allowing players to interweave turns and combo while being quick to determine) without leading to as much "Rocket Tag".
- Faster characters can add a bonus to their roll and feel faster.
- Initiative is really fast to call. GM says "Roll Initiative! If you get a 5 or higher, youre up!" while still rolling, and play proceeds seamlessly
Man, I really wish you would have brought up Balsera style-initiative. BS-I is when the player who've just went, can choose the next player to go in the initiative order. I think it really does wonders for the attention span of the group as a whole, knowing that you could be the very next player taking your turn is always exciting. furthermore, I really like the cinematic feel it gives when you can perfectly set up your best friend for the fastball special and the like.
One that wasnt mentioned that im not sure how it could work in games like D&D: Simultaneously, delayed result initative.
This can be seen in games like Avatar Legends TTRPG and Starfinders ship combat. Essentially, there are different phases of the round and what you want to do (or the ship position youre occupying for starfinder) determines when you act. Players quickly lock in their actions, then enemies. However, nothing "resolves" until the end of the round. So even if you remove someone from a fight, they still finish their set action for the round. This helps to mitigate the tactical advantage of systems where all PCs go first.
This is a great intro to different initiative systems!
The question for me is - what is the core goal for initiative, and what are these different systems providing?
- Do players and GMs want variety in combat turns to keep things different and interesting, and arguably "fair", and let the dice randomness determine the turn order?
- Do GMs want to be able to quickly jump into the combat to keep the story moving without fiddling around too much?
- Do players feel like they want the ability to craft their characters to gain an advantage in combat to go before monsters?
- Do GMs want to be able to insert monster turn order between PCs to keep the battle dramatic and have a back and forth?
Maybe these goals change between the types of scenes, and a different initiative system makes sense, but at the cost of potentially confusing the players on what action do they need to take to roll initiative? 🤔
I hate switching initiative at each round, it usually means that spells and abilites have the chance to last more or less if your turn goes up and down the initiative. If the sistem has a bonus to the initiative then the static ranked is the best one, if all the pc have the same stats then clockwise is ok
Yeah it does mess with spells in 5e but we found that part interesting!
Clockwise Initiative is my favorite.
Just curious but why do you like it? While it can be faster, especially with larger groups. It can also be frustrating.
When I played with a group that used it I absolutely hated it! If you roll 2nd highest but are sitting to the right of the player that rolled highest then you end up going last... Happened to my high dex character at least once or twice per session. It was really frustrating. Good thing I wasn't playing an Assassin Rogue that relied on going before their enemies.
I now mostly play online in Fantasy Grounds so the official initiative system works really well since FG tracks imitative for us.
@@dabeef2112 ah. The versions of Clockwise Initiative I prefer don't roll for initiative at all.
@@aodhfyn2429
So what about advantage and dex bonuses? I'd feel a little cheated if I "spent" on those abilities and they were ignored.
@@Thomas-np3gi I don't use it in D&D. At least not right now. Roll20's initiative tracker does all the work for you, and my group is scattered across America, so that's what we use. Out of all the initiative systems I've tried, though, clockwise is my favorite.
I do read chapter headings!! 😇
My favourite initiative is reverse call order initiative.
First: On each turn everyone in the fight rolls initiative.
Second: Everyone in the fight calls their actions and targets from lowest roll to highest.
Third: You execute every action in the fight from the highest initiative to the lowest.
This is very laborous, and generally requires a different action economy than the one in d20 fantasy games. (I think Vampire the Masquerade 3rd edition or Dark Ages: Vampire is the last one that used it) So it is designed for a type of game where fights are deadly, over in 1-3 rounds, and larger fights are generally only featured once every couple of sessions. But it creates an incredibly reactive and interesting way to plan out a fight if you have the patience and system for it.
Great Video! We use CARD INITIATIVE using poker cards with really big numbers. So everyone draws a card, places it on the table for everyone to see and we simply go from highest to lowest. If anyone has advantage he can draw 2 cards and keep the better one.
I really like this method because it’s fast and everyone can see instantly the turn order of all combatants. It’s just important to use poker cards with big numbers and different colors so you can quickly tell at a glance who goes next.
I have watched dozens of videos on initiative and this one is one of my favorite. Excellent work Bob!
My favorite initiative is from the becmi system (classic d&d):
1. all sides declare their intentions for movement/actions/etc at the start of the round
2. each side rolls initiative (so yes group initiative)
3. Winning side performs declared movements and actions in the following order: first all movement, then all missile attacks, then spells, then melee attacks.
My second favorite initiative system is 2e's which is similar but uses weapon/spell/action initiative modifiers for individual initiative.
For a couple of summers I ran a large group (12+) and I loved clockwise. More experienced players functioned as my assistant GMs to get the on deck players ready, check spell rules, etc. And I would pick up where we left off, so everyone got a chance to play. I did allow players with initiative bonuses to pick their seats.
Love having everyone declare and roll for their actions at the same time and using the test results to determine order.
Fast forwarding through all the misses is a nice bonus!
Seems like it wouldn't work well though if PCs had multi attack.
I haven't had a chance to try this, just tossing it out here. I really like the Mothership initiative system: each player makes a speed check, those that pass go before the monster, those that fail go after the monster.
If I was to homebrew this to a d&d like game: Each player make a Dex check vs. a DC based on the monster, or situation. Character with bonuses, or advantage on initiative get to add it to their Dex check. Those that pass, go before the monsters, those that fail go after the monsters.
It would be quick enough to repeat the check at the top of each combat round, if you wanted to keep it spicy, or just use it to establish the whole fight.
I've been using passive initiative similar to whats in the 5e '24 PHB for a few years now with groups between 3 and 7 players with both 5e and Shadowdark, and everyone loves it.
The few differences I use are that I allow Dexterity or Wisdom to be used for initiative and I also recheck initiative at the start of each round (which usually means I do nothing, but it allows something like the Poisoned condition or Hex to have an even more dynamic feel in combat)
I really liked the MCDM initiative when I ran the playtest with a 3 player group. We ended up adopting it for our main dnd group but that group had 8 players all 10th+ level, which got kinda hard to keep track of. Flippable tokens helped but turns just took so long, though that may be more of a product of a large high level group.
I also backed that Adventurer's Tarot kickstarter and love those cards. I've been keeping track of initiative using a tip I got from pre-Shadowdark Kelsey Dionne -- she (used to?) uses cards with everyone's main stats on them as initiative cards, put in order by initative roll as a quick way to keep stats at hand and to quickly move to the next combatant. I've been doing it without the stats which I keep on a separate sheet, but with those gorgeous tarot cards. But the shuffling idea is new to me and I ***love*** it! Will run it by my players next session! Thank you!
By far the worst initiative system I've used is the standard 5e thing. The best has been Moldvay Basic in my opinion! Great video as always Bob
We usually use the bandera-style (or popcorn) initiative... the person who makes the most sense starts an chooses the next PC or monster, and so on until everyone had their turn. So the PCs could just go all one after another but then have to face all the monsters and maybe all the monsters twice because they could choose themselves.
In my group it works an the players are pretty aware of the importace of order in which they act if they have a plan.
My favorite initiative was for the Alternity RPG. In essence, there were 4 phases to the round. Each round you rolled to hit a target number for the quicker phases. All actions within a phase were presumed to be simultaneous (effects applied at end of phase).
Characters secondary attacks were taken in later phases or at the end of the slowest phase. NPCs could roll, but each was also published with their default action phase.
As a GM, it was great. I didn't keep track of anything. Just call out, anyone in Amazing phase take your actions. Resolve. Rinse and repeat for the remaining 3 phases.
I've been liking a modified chaos mode from Shadowdark. Every round players roll initiative against a DC (usually 9-15 depending on the situation) and those that beat it go before the monsters in whatever order they like. After the monsters go the rest of the PCs act in whatever order they want. This works fine for my group of 5 as often its 2-3 players that get to act at the same time so strategizing doesn't get too complicated.
Yeah another comment had a different method that also results in about half the players going before monsters and half going after, which would then be great for letting them choose their own order (like the order within their batch). I'll have to test something like this out!
Take the monster with the highest initiative modifier and add ten.
Have the players roll for initiative. Two situations arise:
a. Some players beat or equal this initiative number
b. No player does beat this initiative number
If a, then all players that beat the highest monster initative gets to act first in whatever order. Once they’ve played, monsters and the remaining players get to act individually in alternative order starting with the monsters
If b, then all monsters whose initiative modifier +10 is greater than the highest player initiative act first up in whatever order. Once they’ve played, players and the remaining monsters get to act individually in alternative order starting with players. Players and monsters are free to choose amongst themselves who gets to play next
My favorite initiative system is found in the Dragonbane RPG, where you have a pool of 10 cards and at the beginning of combat each round you draw a new card. Meaning that combat and the turn order is always changing. And you can trade places in the turn order with other players so you can strategize in that way too.
Shadow of the Weird Wizard. Monsters go first, players go second. Players can use their reaction to "Take the Initiative" and go before monsters. But that means losing out on your reaction for attacks of opportunity, deflecting damage from an ally you're standing next to, and other things. In either case, whether they go before or after, players can still both move and take an action.
I've been toying with an idea of running initiative as "freeform grouped" where players declare what they want to do, and I use that to group up characters and enemies, then resolve each group as one turn, with characters and monsters rolling at the same time, and each side can optional "cancel" the others attacks by trading one of their own, so a fighter's strike might be deflected by a dragon's bite forcing them back or whatever. Could be a rule that seems fun in theory and falls about immediately, but I think it's good to try out new options as iniative does not feel like an even close to solved problem yet.
Deadlands uses a similar system you mentioned but it’s based on a regular deck of cards and it just goes in the normal highest to lowest and based on suit for ties. They also include Jokers and whomever draws one can go whenever they want that round (plus an extra bonus to stuff they do). Our GM also had us choose a card from the deck and whenever our character’s card was drawn, that character would go first that round. There were other feats and things you could take to help with initiative as well.
Thats INSANE about the card initiative system. This is almost literally how we do it at my table and I've never heard of it before.
The only difference is that I outsource this to another player and they deal the cards to others and then we flip them all.