Philharmonic BMR Monitor v2 Review.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 вер 2024
- Written review/data can be found here:
www.erinsaudio...
Support the cause:
Patreon: / erinsaudiocorner
Contribute via PayPal: www.paypal.com...
Generic Affiliate Links to use while shopping:
Amazon: amzn.to/3v6i6ov
Audio Advice: www.audioadvic...
Crutchfield: shop-links.co/...
^ any purchases you make using these helps earn me a small commission at no additional cost to you.
Your support helps me pay for new items to test, hardware, miscellaneous items and costs of the site’s server space and bandwidth. All of which I otherwise pay out of pocket. So, if you can help chip in a few bucks, know that it is very much appreciated.
____________________
All of my tests are conducted using KLIPPEL Hardware and Software. KLIPPEL is an innovative leader in providing unique test equipment for electro-acoustical transducers and audio systems. Founded in 1997 by Dr. Wolfgang Klippel, the novel techniques developed for control and measurement systems of loudspeakers and other transducers are the result of over 30 years of fundamental research. This provides more accurate physical models of loudspeakers, micro-speakers and headphones valid for both small and large amplitudes. The focus is on revealing the root causes of signal distortion and defects and giving practical indications for improvements in design and manufacturing of audio products. For information on KLIPPEL products, please visit their site below:
www.klippel.de/... - Наука та технологія
🛒🛒🛒
Generic Affiliate Links to use while shopping:
Amazon: amzn.to/3v6i6ov
Audio Advice: www.audioadvice.com/?referral=erins-audio-corner&b=3
Crutchfield: shop-links.co/cgZmmT81jmh
^ any purchases you make using these helps earn me a small commission at no additional cost to you.
I just want to take a moment to contrast the amount of practical, usable information in Erin's review against the typical review in any of the major audio publications. One guy in a garage completely demolishes the corporate backed audio publications. Erin's presentation may not be slick and polished, but the consumer walks away with real information to help them make the right choice. Nice job!
Oh don't underestimate his setup, it's definitely sufficiently sleek 😂 I kinda hope, that the average joe gets tired of the over prepared polished classic reviews and realizes it's pure bogus and finally realizes what can a reviewer say that makes sense vs the classic bullcrap
Yep, I asked Dennis to build me a pair of custom 3-way “pro” speakers using the best drivers for absolute midrange accuracy (Accuton Cell ceramics mid/tweeter plus Revelator woofer) for my video editing and wow, exactly what I wanted. Dennis is a dying breed of custom speaker makers who will design & build the speakers exactly as needed for your use case
Where can i read and see these amazing speakers?
big money components! I bet it sounds amazing
I just got a pair. Center imaging is rock solid. I have a well treated and set up listening room. Equilateral triangle. Zero toe in. Huge soundstage and excellent instrument placement within soundstage. Better center image than the Ceramic Minis I had in here just prior to the BMR monitor.
I had the same impression regarding the imaging while i owned my set of version 1 BMR's. I loved the feeling of spaciousness and the huge horizontal dispersion but imaging was impacted. A double edged sword for sure. I dont recall any sibilance. Just a great sounding speaker but not a spl monster. Oh, and Dennis Murphy is a class act and a gem of the DIY and audio in general community. We owe him a LOT! Another great review. thank you!
I bought a pair ready made from Dennis. After a burn in period, I too had issues with imaging which a bit of simple experimentation soon solved. I found they required between 10 to 20 degrees of precise toe in my room and for the distance I have them apart. The speaker nearest a side wall required more toe in than the other. Get it right, and the image locks in and I can follow the music in the way that I'm used to. I've found no other issues - they are smooth, well integrated, fast - they time well, and dynamic enough to startle you with the right music. With a good amp they go plenty deep enough for me.
Hey Erin, brand to this but just wanted to say, I appreciate the almost tender way you present your analysis; making sure to identify where your coming from on certain points. I think it's a really unique PoV for reviews and it's awesome. Keep up the great work.
Every time I've heard them at Capital Audiofest, these have been best in show by a country mile. It really bums me out that I don't have an appropriate place in my house for this type of speaker.
I agree. The Philharmonic room was one of the better rooms besting rooms running at 100x the cost.
This guy undresses a speakers like no other. Genius.
Something else to note in the response linearity test is that the "cheap" BMR mid driver holds up better than either of the more expensive ones. Better by design!
thank you for this review. it w as very validating to listen to.
I got the chance to demo these at Philharmonic in Virginia. I experienced the same blurriness in the ability of the speaker to image properly. it appears, based on your review, and comments from other Philharmonic users who said it was impossible for the speaker not image well, that there is a sensitivity for near reflections with this type of speaker. unfortunately for me, Philharmonic had a very poor setup to demonstrate their own speaker to me. I came away with the impression that these could not properly place items on the soundstage. these are right at the price point that I would like to spend money at. I honestly thought I would be driving home with a set of The BMR Towers that day, but the inability, blurriness as you call it, to properly image items on the soundstage prevented me from making a purchase. The location I would be using these is a 22 ft wide with an open arch on one end. this seems like it would be a perfect location and improve, or completely resolve, any trouble with the speakers imaging. this review was very validating to my novice ears. I trusted my ears and did not make a purchase because I did not hear what I needed.
Thank you again.
It was between these and 1TDX Superiors. I did the 1TDX with plans for converting to the tower with the 10" and 2 passive and a high pass crossover for the 1TD.
Nice measurements and review. This is entry level of RAAL tweeter, model 64-10. this tweeter can't handle the power as his big brothers and we see it in the measurement as well. Highly appreciate your work 👍🏼
Have been living with the bmr for about 3 weeks and these are really great speakers. But imo, the super wide dispersion is not for every genre of music. I find it with vocal a bit distracting. Lucky i have peq on my processor so i tame down the area from 2-5 khz roughly average 1.5 db. The midrange got more center focus. I also bump the 100 and 250 hz to around 1db and the bass is almost perfect for this price. I dont even need my rythmik. It is that good!
Love the compression data! I would love to see that on all speaker reviews if possible. Thanks!!
It’s on all my reviews. 👍
@@ErinsAudioCorner When you test your speakers, what other amps do you run it with besides your Adcom GFA-545, which are only rated at 100 watts per channel? Can the lower watts affect the compression test negatively for high spl?
@@elongatuspiranha the data is captured using a 3600w QSC amplifier that stays with my test gear. (Or sometimes a 1500w Crown amp, depending on what I’m doing)
@@ErinsAudioCornerFor the record, I never doubted you. I just wanted to know :)
When you look at the deviation from linearity, generally you'll see more compression where the driver impedance is low due to heating of the voice coil. SB Acoustics usually uses non-thermally conductive (non-metallic) voice coil formers which has less thermal capacity. Looks like something is going on in the ribbon also, something with the transformer, not sure? 3-ways should have fairly large woofers IMO for best bass response and because it doesn't have to work far up into the midrange. Designer is paying for a 3-way might as well make the most of it.
Completely agree 8 inch woofer would be much better even 10
Just bought a pair of Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2EX's that I'm blown away with. It's an amazing speaker for the price! Looking forward to see how the RAAL performs in the Philharmonics.
I'll wager that both are good but Dennis' is better. We'll see.
@@matsudakodo better may be subjective...
Looks like it's a very nice 2 channel music speaker or about 2 meter HT speaker with a high wife acceptance factor. Now for the BMR tower right? ;)
Hi Erin great review my question did you review the speaker with the new ceramic woofer because the sample that you show in your video is the old woofer the new one is i think white color.
Love the reviews of DIY kits. Keep them coming!
I think the dynamic of bmr speakers is isolated scenes in movies or someone being spied on. E.g. Paranomal activity 1 2 and 3 cctv footage
Love the DIY reviews! I have a DIY as my mains as well as Kef LS50, LS50 is clearer, DIY has much more base and is pretty decent sounding. Cost me about the same. If I did it again, I would spend the $3k on modern towers or bookshelf+sub.
I'm disabled so pre-built is my only option. I have a room filled with bookshelf speakers I no longer use ever since I got a pair of aDs 910s. I never realized how good a true full-range loudspeaker could sound until I gassed the 910s up with some Adcom and NAD current. Exactly what I'd been searching for. I still have a Hsu Research sub sitting in the box it came in, and the other sub, an SVS is also no longer in use.
I'm not saying these speakers have an imaging issue, but if it does, having gears with strong imaging to strengthen it would be an interesting journey.
You gonna review the BMR Towers? Great info !
you are a cool dude ! BTW someone said this guy is retired now there was no provision made for continuing ! how about seeing about some plans or finding someone to make kits ?
Dennis still makes speakers as far as I know. Maybe you’re thinking of the guy at Salk Sound. I know they had some sort of overlap but I don’t recall how much.
Another great review Erin! Man, I should just cancel my Netflix subscription and divert all the funds to you! Much more enjoyment for this audio nerd.
Hi Erin! I love my Wharfedale Lintons but have had that itch lately to try something new. What is your subjective opinion and preference between the Lintons and the BMR Monitors? Thanks!
So what you are describing is that these speakers like more side Wall control because of the wide dispersion to control localization.
I prefer.... in most spaces..... a wide sound stage. Imagining has a lot to do with the mix. If the engineer layered the instruments across the sound stage then the imaging is great. If not, no speakercan really "image." Many recordings hsvr this issue Extremely reverberate spaces work better with narrow dispersion drivers, Of course, but those spaces add too many others issues to solve. Narrow dispersion works best in a very large space where the listener is further away from the speakers provided the space is tuned a bit and music friendly.
The reason for the shape of power compression I think would be interesting topic to discuss with René Christensen. I might comment on twitter if I have a moment later. Although it would be a short topic alone.
Well.. not to mention the topic of BMR and nodal point driving!! (E.g. KEF, is the uni-q a BMR if they drive the main mode?)
Just saw this. I actually would not have much to say about it. For the BMR driver, I do know someone who has worked a lot on them.
@@Rene_ChristensenI think I was talking about how the reflex port increases output above the linear base-line at higher levels. The ports efficency should result in less compression, but we see an actual boost at high levels. Perhaps something simulations could help explain and maybe to do with turbulence and raynolds numbers??
Gorgeous speaker.
Especially excited for this one!
I think you're hearing that around the 2 to 3000 hz range is because that's where that cheap mid is taking over. Maybe that tweeter doesn't crossover that low so they needed a mid or I would have just used the sb and crossover around 2500 but if the tweeter had to be crossed higher and you needed a.mid I would have spent the extra money on a tang band dome mid they came out with new ones that look like they would fill that mid in a little better except for a $15 mid like they used they would spend a,$100 . I think the sb woofer is no more than $80 I'm not sure about the tweeter and what kind of crossover parts but I did see the cabinet build and it's really good they used biscuits and pocket screws in the bracing. I'm surprised that the sb didn't have more kick and I think a better mid would have made a huge difference in the 2000 to 3000 hz range but what do I know 😅
One of your better reviews and that's saying a lot, as I like 99% of your videos.
I find speakers that have “too much” wide dispersion just add spaciousness that just doesn’t fit with all the music I listen for
Interesting observation. I make my diy set, just regular 6" and 1" soft dome, to sound wider I loose sense of depth and maybe height, also their timbre and tonal balance starts to deviate from what I consider normal.
For anyone who has these, I’m curious how treating the sidewalls with absorption effects imaging. In my limited experience, adding first/second reflection absorption panels really improved imaging in a very noticeable way.
Not being a loud listener, I would be more interested in knowing it's performance at lower listening levels. Does it need to be driven at 80 or above to wake it up?
The latest info I found on these is that Dennis is not making the monitors anymore. Salk Sound has these as finished speakers in the upper $2k price range and they do beautiful work on all their models. The kit Dennis mentions (from Meniscus) will save about a grand or maybe a little more depending on parts selected, and this includes a flat pack cabinet sourced differently (from Speaker Hardware) . You could save more building the cabinets from scratch.
Without complete specs on the room any speaker review will not be much help. It remains the most overlooked part ( it should be thought of as another piece of equipment) of the hobby although now much easier to research the multitude of ways to improve and combine this with one's equipment level. Match the speakers ability to play properly in the room and go from there. Passive or active correction can both be equally successful, although active will do better at correcting a really challenging space.
He's still selling them
Im not surprised that these are going to be making history. Dennis is getting old.
Hmm wish they had a more affordable option: Amt tweeters, bmr, etc
You mean with a Mundorf or Beyma AMT? Heil Tweeters cost as much as Ribbon Tweaters
Just get some Emotiva B1s.
Hey Erin, great vid as usual. Love your channel.
Question. Why don’t you design your own speakers? Not for sale but for yourself. You have all the equipment and knowledge. Shoot I would tailor a speaker to my liking if I were you.
Cheers
He did. Before klippel though.
I would like him to run some tests of the raw drivers for diy community if people would supply the drivers for testing, but I understand the time and effort involved.
One perspective on the diluted imaging as it relates to the BMR's extraordinary polar response is that they may reveal the inherent limitations of stereo sound reproduction. On one extreme would be headphones, on the other, the BMR's. Is nirvana somewhere in the middle or is this pursuit for ideal imaging a rabbit hole with stereo attempts. Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks for another great video! Could you share the EQ parameters that you found best addressed that 2k-3k bump? I have these speakers and love them, but I do find that I occasionally experience fatigue on some recordings.
Ps Erin. You seemed to like the Klipsch 600 v2. Tho in different price ranges. How do these compare to the klipsch 600 v 2 you reviewed a few days ago??
Could that bumps in the measurements be addressed via either X over changes or DSP applications ?
Another wonderful review of a very popular speaker. Hopefully one day I get to hear these for myself. Thank you again for the excellent work.
Your review have technical info in it, is backup with graphics ... wow
would the newer white ceramic coated cone change the results that much? -nm found a post from dennis saying black is same aluminum driver
Thank you Erin for your detailed review. Did you prefer the sound of the earlier V1 or the V2 monitor ? Also was the sibilance noticeable most of the time ?
Mr Dennis is very proactive on mail and a wonderful and genuine person. Those are beautifully designed monitors.
A v1 vs v2 would be very interesting for sure .
03:00 Yeah, but what is that $20 midrange unit. Midrange is the most important driver to get right.
They went up in price, i hope it makes u feel better. But can you elaborate how bad those bmr are besides being cheap?
@@Brian-ny4pw I am saying, they spent their money on everything else than on the midrange.
@@rewind9536 there are plenty of nice looking drivers on parts express for little money. The thing is, once these are made in China, the chances are they r going to be cheap but not bad.
At 2K, 2 vs 4 inches probably won't make much difference. The deeper material will will extend the absorption to lower frequencies.
Right. The absorption would be broadband. I wasn’t talking about absorbing just 2k.
@@ErinsAudioCorner ahh, it sounded like you were concentrating on the 2 k regions since that is where you were hearing the glare. I am working on a speaker that had a glare at around 2 - 4K. I kept working on the crossover and was able to eliminate it.
I’ve always wondered why they haven’t made a lower cost $1500 version with a metal dome tweeter.
Because no other tweeter matches the dispersion of the small raal in the upper highs. It would fundamentally change the whole design. The RAAL and BMR combined make the design what it is.
@@muadification the super wide and limited vertical dispersion is not a good choice for every room or listening situation.
@@seanb3303 Dennis and his partner make a very limited number of speakers as this is a small volume business so they cannot cater to everyone's desires. I'm sure you can find something that fits your particular requirements in the market. There are so many good options available now.
@@ac7183 lol I just hope they continue to push the envelope with performance value. I think the original BMR did that but competition is stronger now with 3 way stand mounts…such as KEF R3 Meta.
@@seanb3303 for sure. But it's still what makes the design what it is. There is no evidence for or against wide horizontal dispersion, nor narrow vertical dispersion. There's no other tweeter as wide as that raal.
I personally prefer more vertical dispersion as I listen everywhere in the room. Im currently on the wait list for the ascend sierra Lx. Still decently wide dispersion overall.
Also, revel has good wide dispersion designs.
If he still makes that $300 bookshelf he should send that to you.
Sb acoustics mention linear excursion in peak to peak only so does your klipple measures one way then that might explain the values. Or were you only talking about one way xmax?
I was talking about one-way. I’ve been measuring SB drivers for about a decade and they’re linear (one-way) excursion is always a fair but above what I get using the IEC standard, derived from KLIPPEL measurements.
Kind of a funny speaker because it's horizontal dispersion is so wide. You didn't touch on the vertical, but I'm sure with the short little ribbon, the vertical listening window has to be very narrow. Moreover, it needs a big room because of the diffuse imaging engendered by the wide directivity, but on the other hand, the power handling constraits of both the tweeter and the midwoofer militate against putting them in a big room. So I don't know who this speaker is for. Perhaps a solitary owner with a big room who listens at lower volumes?
Obviously, well crafted, and what it does well, it does superbly, and very fairly priced if you can look past the limitations.
SB overstates exactly by 2x, I don't think it's a misrepresentation, they just use another metric than everyone else.
Is the white vs black woofer of any real performance difference?
The curved cabinets are +$200, I for sure would opt for that, looks so much nicer.
Dennis says no
Hey old friend what speakers are you running these days?
Sounds like you had higher praise for the original Philharmonic BMR. Is this correct ?
Thanks for the honest and very thorough review. Another reviewer (Two Channel Listening) proclaimed these to be the holy grail of monitors. 🙄 unbelievable the level of BS that some “reviewers” churn out. 🤦♂️
you are so arbitrary, could be the amp they are using, could be the room or the source..,
More than a few people think that about these speakers. Are they all full of BS?
That's nonsense IMHO. He heard what he heard in his room, with his equipment. And he tells you this in his videos. That's his opinion, and he's allowed to have it. ✌️
Can you review the good ol’ Pioneer FS52
What speaker do you like most around $2000?
Looks like your BMR has a rectangle cabinet! Haven't seen one before.
Great review. Any chance for the BMR towers?
I doubt it. Dennis doesn’t seem keen on me reviewing his stuff anymore. But maybe.
@@ErinsAudioCorner That’s not cool.
I wonder if the curved cabinet version with the extra large round overs on the sides have a different measurement in the region that bothered ya???
Do these speakers do well Near-field on a desktop 1.3m triangle?
I know it’s about matching speaker components but I fail to see the logic of using a $300 RAAL tweeter with a $30 BMR midrange when the tweeter will reproduce about 10% of the sound and the midrange about 30-40% depending on crossover points.
500Hz is 360 degrees on both contour plots. must be the cabinet vibrating, no?
hi erin, i’m torn between philharmonic bmr and mofi sourcepoint 8. currently, from where i live there’s not big difference in their price. in your personal opinion which one would perform better in a medium sized room? thanks in advance.
I don’t have any experience with the MoFi 8. And the thing is, they are very different speakers in principle so it would be hard for me to tell you which one you would prefer without more understanding of what you tend to like.
One huge difference between the two will be the directivity. The BMR is a very wide radiating speaker, while the MoFi is a more narrow one.
Okay Erin. Very good speakers. However?Soundwise how would these compare with Polk reserve R600, Buchardt S400 v2. Or the Ascends sierra ex.???
No experience with any of those. So I can’t say.
Seriously there is really no comparison.
@@Brian-ny4pwMeaning the Philharmonics are much better than the Buchardts?
Can I ask what amp you were using to listen to them ?
I cut off the crossover at 120 hz, both to my Superzeros and two subs. nevertheless I feel the Superzeros's woofers trying to play a 40 hz tone no matter the surround mode I select at the receiver (2019 Onkyo 494). I thought a cutoff frequency means the front spkrs won't play a note below that freq, nothing, zip, nada. what am I missing here?
There is 24dB slope per octave, so theoretically you could hear some sound coming out. But 40 Hz is really low so maybe you are doing something wrong. Not an expert for Onkyo so can't help either. On the Denon/marantz you have to set bass management as LFE only (not Main+LFE) to have properly set the crossover.
My JVC receiver has a setting to indicate if the front speakers are small or large. There is a high pass when small is used.
I thought that these,were available as a kit, but I cant seem to find any info about it.
The previous version of the BMR was available as a kit. Not sure of the details. Hit this thread to ask questions:
www.avsforum.com/threads/philharmonic-audio-dennis-murphy.1348949/page-869#post-61710957
Is this a speaker you would keep as a consumer?
Erin, I'm not sure what to take away from this review, especially compared to your glowing reviews of the v1 of this speaker and the tower. Why does this speaker have so many problems compared to the v1? I was going to order a pair from Mr. Murphy, but I am reconsidering this now. It's a pity that maybe the most beautiful speaker I've ever seen has so many problems.
I think it's a function of experience for me. When I listened to the v1 nearly two years ago, I hadn't had the exposure of listening to around 100 different loudspeakers at that time. Now, I have. And through that experience I've come to catch things, better understand things and my preference is more... refined, I suppose you could say. It doesn't make this speaker a bad one. It just makes it a speaker that doesn't quite check the boxes that I want it to check.
How’s the coherence of this spk? In all my 40 yrs of being in this hobby i haven heard a totally coherent spk spotting ribbon tweeters with cone drivers, even the super expensive Raidho C1 & D1 is not totally coherent. The Raidho is by far the most coherent but comes at a huge price tag but still not 100%. Switch over to a normal spk spotting dome tweeters with cone drivers & this becomes apparent.
They are very coherent. The thing is that the ribbon tweeter is crossing to a rather small midrange driver, thus the center to center is very short. But the real pros is how well all 3 drivers are blended . The distance between the mid and woofer is kept close.
Hi Erin, is there a list of all loudspeakers' preference rating, including yours and ASR measurements?
Pierre has a great repository here:
pierreaubert.github.io/spinorama/
Doesn't sweetchaos maintain this at asr?
@@ErinsAudioCorner thanks for the link, really useful!
I wonder if these speakers wouldn't benefit from a change to a 4" cone midrange driver? It should narrow the midrange dispersion a little from what little I know. Would that bring the soundstage into better focus? V3?
My only issue with these is that ribbon tweeter and it’s limited vertical dispersion.
Many people would argue that’s a great thing to have.
@@abdo-dr1tu yes if you have low ceilings or don’t like to stand up 😉
@@seanb3303 ceiling acoustic panels for free.
@@abdo-dr1tu or narrow sidewalls.
@@seanb3303 yeah I guess most don’t stand up.
That's a pretty loudspeaker. I really wouldn't mind to hear it. Yeah, the SB 6" midbass family aren't the cleanest in low end, possibly due to design. They have nice mids, very detailed, if SB would improve the design, that would be awesome.
well daaymm-it, was considering these. guess they look better than they sound. someone else was giving these high praise from only listening to them. oh well the search never ends so it seems
What's so special about BMR drivers?
They have wide dispersion and are full-ish range.
@@sychan168 just don't run them full range the top end not the greatest sounding, you can get the top end sounding better by modifying the cone but still not that great, best used as a midrange as is done here. I personally prefer the localization accuracy or diffused wide sound stage myself but to each their own
The 500Hz resonance looks like a port resonance
Almost before the video started, I thought nice cabinet, ugly looking cheap bass unit. Funny how first impressions count.
You don't like the SB acoustics woofer? You might be the 1st.
@@gregorymorrill7558 Well, it dose not do very well in this review, so I'm hardly the only one. Runs out of steam very quickly into compression and high distortion, hardly a great driver in my books.
First reviewer I’ve ever heard trash this speaker..
I definitely didn’t trash it.
very widespread not good need 4 feet from the sidewalls minimum
if the tweeters mounted on the inside that might help.
getting a lot of comb effect going on here below 660 Hz, only way your really going to sort that is to put a
single driver "passive"in reverse phase using a mini DSP behind you not blocked against the wall.
sort out the problems you're having
Sounds like a crossover clash Linkwitz riley i bet or driver symptom.