How can there be progress without the desire to improve? | J. Krishnamurti
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- Опубліковано 1 жов 2024
- Madras 1981-1982 - Question #1 from Question & Answer Meeting #1
"Without conflict or struggle in the sense of desire to improve, how can there be any progress, material or social, in the world? The desire to change supplies the motive force for work towards achievement and progress. If you accept 'what is' then how can there be any kind of progress?"
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Once you listen to JK everybody else's ("spiritual teachers") opinion and explanation seem so vague and i don't even want to begin to hear them out. Instead I want to study myself and go within. That's the influence he has on me.
I think he'd be very pleased with that.
Seriously the same thing I said when I first started listening to him. Lol
I get exactly the same influence :)
i always thought of a teacher as someone who doesn't supply answers; rather, they make us question. the quality of our lives is EXACTLY the quality of question we dare ask ourselves.
i feel because people like JK and Jung have gone ahead, we can have this as starting point. we are here now because they had dared reach here then. this is evolution as its purest.
i made a promise to myself to ask myself ONE question every day for a year.
@@ranirathi3379 that is a beautiful quest! :)
I hope this helps everyone who are not able to get the crux of this talk. What JK is trying to convey and asking yourself to find is -- "Action" without cause = Witnessing". That is the state of mind where there is no cause, motive, want, desire. The act of sensation stops right there with no thought creating an image out of it which creates desire. This is what he means to say "When you see a beautiful tree, you just be with the sensation of seeing it and not further". When there is no thought creating an image of that tree with you being a part of it like "having that tree in your backyard" there is no desire. So delve, inquire and find that state of mind where there is only witnessing (action without cause). 🙏
what could be done without will other than sleep and laziness?
I don't blame those people for not understanding him, I need to replay the video a million of times to do it.
learn how to be reading peoples comments 70% are able to know the way out .
Yes the point though is I think we feel a compelling interest in the content that we HAVE to listen to it several times
Many are attached to only hearing what they want to hear. He said in the end find an action without a cause, which to me suggests that when we act without the conditions of the mind, which look to establish a cause to attach to...as a way to justify the action and/or establish a grand sense of self (outside of what truly is now)....When without a cause to act, especially when with pure intentions, it becomes a happening that doesn't fill the mind with doubts, constant questions and neurotic self assessments
I do blame them, they're not listening and apparently you aren't😂
Let it soak
34:00 - man he nailed it. "I'm not helping you. Help yourself."
Life is an inside job....you are what you are...
This guy is the reason I don't hate myself anymore
How?
Same
I do this because I want that. That's a motive which is a cause. Can you live without cause? This is real meditation--to find action without cause. Love is not a cause. Proceed along that line and think it out...
Truly deep and enlightening.
World teacher namaste
I love his teachings, although he may say these are not teachings. But I do have many questions still. I wonder if I can get some answers/discussions in the comments about this.
1) Surely progress like vaccinations, medicine and biological knowledge has to be different from progress like atom bomb etc.
2) He says violence is not necessary at all. One should live a non violent life, which is in the moment. He also says, say someone you loved is attacked, you act in the moment, that is not violence. Violence is premeditated in some way (that is how I perceieved it anyway). However, in a violent environment, should I not take some steps to ensure protection. Of course in a perfect world, we wpuld not have a need for such things at all.
At that time he was talking about the real transformation of human being. We were confused then and even now also. We are still suffering. No progress. We have improved our tools for our desires- mobiles, missiles,satellites, infrastructure, Internet,IT, AI. When will we think about ourselves rather than these tools. Even the spiritual gurus are like fitness gurus who are making us believe that it’s a tremendous effort to transform. Transformation is a timeless activity. After knowing that also I am hesitant to transform.
What he is really teaching deep down is an ability, to see, watch observe, through the mind and not through thought. Not vecaude thought is bad or something, it just takes too much time. Seeing the wolrd as it actually is, is an accelerator of understanding, because of its timelessness.
No human emotion or desire should be repressed or expressed but understood in their entirety.
Or indeed animal or plant desires. It's why I don't want to become a vegetarian anymore. I just can't hate plants enough.
It's possible to live without psychological comparison, although in the outside world comparisons will likely go on. For example, if you apply for a job, you'll inevitably have competition, and that involves comparisons. There's one given position, and (often) many candidates. When it comes to prestigious universities, only the students with the top marks are allowed admission (usually). So while the individual need not engage in comparisons (psychologically), the world at large is (to a large degree) engaged in comparisons because there are limited positions and resources in relation to the number of people. Moreover, prospective employers usually demand a high level of competence or proficiency, and clearly many people are not proficient enough (for the position). So comparative assessments are inevitable on that level. The problem, however, is that in identifying themselves with their jobs and/or sets of skills, they form more attachments which deepen their conditioning. The sense of "ego" is thereby strengthened. In doing what they do, they deny themselves the possibility of freedom.
one can acknowledge all this and play the game it becomes an intentional movement thus you don’t take it personally
This is probably why I chost to be self-employed. This may not be for you, but I am saying there is always a way around any problem you see, you can try finding your way. But it won't solve the problem you pointed out with identification. Being self-employed I still have to project an identification with my skillset in order for some prospective clients to trust me. Conformation and (the illusion of) trust are linked. There is only one size fits all solution that I found up to now and that is: Don't mind what is and what arises in you because of it. And if you do mind, don't mind minding, because it is just something that arises because of what is. That last one can get a bit tricky at times, I found out.
Is there limited resources? Maybe that used to be true but not anymore, we produce plenty enough to throw it away in the garbage.. maybe the state of affairs is a mirror our mind
Hey my boi you got something wrong. Comparison and the psychological problems do NOT correlate with the skillset you acquire or success in society. Success in society is mostly driven by not determinable momentary needs, so being successful depends on someone whose doing clicks with the need of society. Furthermore you don't have to be psychological broken to be, for example, a good cook. If you love what you are doing you are doing it without desire, it flows in the same way as a river flows, some big, some small. Which is better? This is why we can't teach art, because it is not only done by practice, it is your flowing expressing itself through the skillset you acquired in your own flow.
You can be the cook that you are without comparing yourself with others.
If you see yourself as somebody who has to get better, who has to get at the imagined point which you tell yourself is the right one, you are breaking yourself because you set yourself as something that you aren't. You can, and you most certainly do, advance without the comparison between the imaginary you and the others. And whatever direction life flows, so do you. If you can't let go of this, you are scared that life takes a route that will harm you, and you'll rather watch in anxiety than being okay doing what you always did.
Well said
Being conversed as ‘Sir’ from this great man feels enough to be anything
Yes
He is not great... but we have made ourselves small indeed... :)
@@Patrx999 absolutely right
J.K. responses are sometimes humour in its highest degree, I love it
Thank goodness
"spiritually, not materialistically"..... "Oh lovely"
when the observer is absent(in his mind) means , the outer shell breaks, that is you're no longer a person, just a presence, which us the nature of your existence and it is the energy which becomes fully active and involved... the barrier (shell) was you, your social identity , your identification with the body.... when you(observer) is absent the, means energy is playing and observer's activity of the mind which he do, and which is just the disturbance in the path 👣
Such an underrated comment❤
You have written what I really feel.... What a co-incidence
Like pictures on white canvas
Desire or willingness to possess comes from a mindset of lacking. You go through the thought of lacking something. Thats how outside agencies make money selling what the consumers think they lack. When we have a mindset of already having instead of lacking things are actually beautiful. Growth happens when we realize we have everything we just have to live through it.
Just awsome❤.Just 2 watch his way he is and response is quiet fascinating....beautyful...elegant.
Thx 4 the uploud....its very nice❤
What he said about meditation in the end...2 really inquire in the root...what they r doing= real meditation is so on point❤and not the silly stuff...lol...lovely❤
"The observer IS The Observed."
One thing which is now very clear to me is that if you really and truly want to understand Krishnamurthy, one needs to listen him without having any pre conceived notions and ideas, which initially will be very difficult for one to do because, as he himself says, the conditioning is so strong, which I myself experienced about me.
So, basically, it might take some time to actually understand him, but persist there as a new born child, who seemingly does not know anything but will try wholeheartedly to understand.
The trick is to listen carefully what he is saying, and then take a look of it in your own life. You will get it sooner or later. :)
if instead of praising him in comment section , people woulld actually share what they learned in the video , that would have been rather helpful you snoobs
We're aggregates of physical and psyche. K's whole life teaching is pointing out the illusiveness of these psyche aggregates. He simplified that as thoughts, but it can be further finely distinguished into more categories of : volition (desire, will), cognition, emotion, consciousness and all mental formation clinging on this "I", this center, this self. We're in actuality a derivative of the totality of human consciousness, a physical manifestation of the essence of numerous actions done, indivisible, presently, moving in a temporal, lateral dimension. Our life can only be freed by the shattering of this center, this ego. So true actions with no doer, doing or recipients (Observer is the Observed) can rest in absolute truth. Thanks K and friends.
excellent explanation.
But you don't have to, right? Somehow I feel that's an important one. If the only thing you can be is absolute truth, that's just another way of not having a choice. We have the choice of illusion, we just cannot help return to the truth. It's like we observe your job as "corpus callosum" is to unite the two apparant opposites of the brain hemispheres (and for a long time people thought them to have wildly different functions). But because the hemispheres are in the same body, life has always been cooperation, not opposing forces. The corpus callosum just facilitates, makes life easier and richer. But you can sever it and people will still live, like they did with epilepsy patients and rats and stuff..
I kind of see this as the last choice no one can ever take away from me. At any moment I can choose where I identify and rejoice in either choice, because it is ultimately mine. My mind just needs to accept it's not my mind that does the choosing, it can help, but it's the whole of me that chooses, however big I am.
The description is never desribed
What makes us suffer in this wolrd is not the pain, fear, hate, guilt, jealousy, lust, etc... Its the thing inside all of these things. We are not affraid of death but the thing that is inside death. Thats why its important to be able to see thing as they actually are and function that way, otherwise inquiring in these things requires too much time and effort due to the activity of thought put to work.
Understood Clearly,Consciously ... deeply Thankful.
People interrupting him was crime to humanity
Yes
For anyone who has listened and read a lot of Krishnamurti, this one is truly a breath of air
-“thank god”
I truly wish he was alive and with us today with all the minds awakening and reaching a higher level over understanding he was one of the greatest teachers of all time sad he isn't hear we truly need him or someone like him we should be truly grateful for him recording this speeches and writing his books to share the teachings with us and for generations to come
Question remains... Is progress possible without a desire ... Anyone can answer
.
However said JK has no since of humor, has no since of humor. 20:55😆👳🏾♂️
16:21 "Do or do not, there is no try".
Yes, but how to do?
@nama Venu Gopal no how
@@namavenugopal8682 It is a lot of work man. And from millions just a few if not one or two get to that ultimate state. The strategy for me is to focus in the journey and not the "when I get there" because it can or can not happen. And it is funny because the "goal" is right here so there is no "how to do". It is kind of a paradox. And as K said: "be your own light" so I ask you : "How to do?"
It's incredible the power Jiddu had when he spoke. At 14:44 you can see the faces trying to understand what he was saying, even in India, his native country. Amazing
When you wrote “even in India” you expressed your prejudice about India and Indian people right ? Just look at it dear 😂😂😂
22:00 They all get the chance to self reflect and yet they are completely clueless. Guess they all went there anyways to acquire answers like the majority of the clueless people who follow gurus so they found it hard to actually use their own brain to fix and reflect on their own lives !!!
Judging from the comments in most of the channel's videos the power of the internet has not helped at all. Poor humanity.
Is this comment not a judgment itself? Who is to know what they thought individually? Just because no one was heard with a proper answer, means that no one thought it? are we not like the crowd watching a video decades after? Im beginning to think that my reply is tainted as well. Godspeed N.J.
@@gibinignobdemutatio7378 K's talks while immensely helpful for those who listen, also transmit some condescension. It's unfortunate that it rubs off on people who listen to him because that energy is better spent elsewhere.
You're a parrot
It's like being hacked, you either realise how clueless you are, or you are indeed clueless.
But calling others out doesn't get you there. In stead I suggest you realise you are as clueless as the rest of us and just accept it and maybe even grow to appreciate it.
I hope you have grown since this comment
Everything else is so childish j.k. is the true teacher
He is so sarcastic.. really fun to watch
I love this pure soul!!
“Is there a mental state that exists without cause?” - I cannot yet begin to unwrap this question.
U have only this one, I have many, lol like for example "observer is the observed"
that's a powerful one, keep it with you
Is there action with out cause
@Rock Rithik it's not quite right to say without the ability, the whole predicament is that we have the ability, to see, hear, feel and so on, there for we analyze/observe it so that we can use it as currency in the pursuit of happiness. And there is where we start suffering from our own desires! 🌝
It's hard to go into this intellectually
You need to experience a dimension beyond intellect
Meditation can help
But I dont know for sure, as i am in the same boat as you
What you can't do for yourself
You cannot do it for anyone else.
its a sanctimonious privilege as well as our own cross to bear.
for who else could set us free but ourselves?? that would be the greatest trespassing.
Identifying our nature is a must. We observe when we separate ourselves from the brain function.
Guru means 'one who points', but, unfortunately, most Gurus are pointing at themselves, while K is pointing at you, not at himself.
Such raw session.
26:15 I've never seen this 😂😅😂
28:15 good luck
30:55 poor JK he had to deal with such people
he is really annoyed when people do not participate unlike the rest of gurus that like to hear their voices
TRUE CHANGE: RELEASING THE SELF AND UNDERSTANDING DESIRE.
Progress, both materially and socially, is driven by the desire to change. What we call "self-improvement" often means merely enhancing traits like selfishness, hypocrisy, and anger. Rather than improving the self, it may be more meaningful to seek freedom from it.
True transformation does not require time; one can be free from violence instantly by realizing that the observer (the self) is not separate from the observed (violence). True change must come from within, not from external sources or leaders.
Desire arises when thought creates an image based on sensory perception. Freedom from desire and genuine transformation are only possible when thought does not create these images, and there is no reliance on any external cause or motive.
I guess desire is when ones go a bit further from oneself. Ones should maybe desire?/will? to find clearliness and love oneself. Then there is just actions to he better and closer to ones true happiess and love. Then the light of happiness spread happiness and attract happiness (and some material needed with it).
Jiddu answered everything but the question.. in his own inimitable style.
" can you live without a cause?" . A question as an answer, he sure does mean it when he say " help yourself" , 40 min of semantics and he leave you more inquisitive when you first started. Absolutely funny to me
Listen again .Jiddu pierced through the heart of the question .
By accepting the concept of super consciousness you understand that you need to improve from where you are to that super co
...Super consciousness. But if there is no super consciousness then there is no need for improvement
Thank u Krishnamurti foundation ❤️
"Who created the Universe " how it's a wrong question ? Why can't one ask this question? Pl explain anybody
Some of the audiences are hilarious
I laughed so hard at the end of the video =]
Freedom from the known j.k🌹🌹🌹
Bit hard to get his core... But for sure ITZ truth
Desire the need to fulfill an emotional deficiency.
I feel this sentence is improved by poor punctuation. I think it was meant as a definition.
Desire: the need to fulfill an emotional deficiency.
Loosing the colon (which in itself is a frightfull prospect) makes it a command.
And then it is very wise. It seems to suggest it is not about one or the other, but the balance between the two and not resenting either.
So desiring the need to fulfull an emotional deficiency is something that we might want in our lives.
Self improvement means the self which was earlier lost in vices has , now wakened from that state of mind. Ok
Why do you discourage the value of visualisation. Don't u know that we are what we think repeatedly.
With the power of music combined with self observation, many people have leant the meditation called mindfulness
Captions gone crazy 😭
For god sake listen the man!..Brain stromming isn't always solution! And You will know! Speaker knows so, just be patient ! Crowds
He around normal humans
What is in the little box ??
33:18 don't you think that sacred books and gurus and Imams (those good ones, those who were a model of good person) didn't help mankind to change?! Is it even possible to stay the same?? Of course those "outside agencies" helped people to change from that brutality to this civilized people, not enough but that path brought us here.
Talking about water is not feeling water... Words can point in the direction of water, but it happens that the path is the understanding of each one of us, so it is obviously different for each one of us !.
Inner inquiry leads one to transform the self.
Pure netra tantra. His single eye is open
These responses are inducing violent desires! :-D
Then give in to them and don't mind the consequences :)
Within what is said i would say being aware of the desire to change would be the first action and then having an idea of what what changes would be desired... the desire is simply what is
It's that simple and has always been. .
The current spiritual teachers are just re-phrasing his words
I love Him a Lot for His Purity. Such a Wonderfull Human Being!
Philosophy is the answer
Philosophy is progress.
Ego is desire to improve.
"Help Yourself". Beautiful.
Accept who you are and what you are, observe this reality with all your energy and violence will cease. Thats all
Is there a state in which there is no cause? YES can one live without cause? YES
How?
One who watches this with all energy and attention, thats it. Finished
we want food.. desire food, because we need to eat in order to survive. Then we want money.. what if we can help ourselves and others with that money?. to live more comfortably.
And, all the things created from humanity, are not things that came from desire?. that things dindt help us to live better?.
So, the people who want something and attains it. whats wrong with that?.
why we want to disolve desire? we need to disolve frustation of not making the desire posibble. and be happy with the desire.. wheter its can come true or not.
Friend this person has incomplete knowledge.
And there is an answer to your question, but unfortunately it is lengthy and i cant tell it here
Love JK
A tradução esta' pessima para um Conteúdo sério e importante
Truly timeless experience. The TRUTH is simple V R so complicated. Jk makes it simpler. very very simpler
JK is perfect answer of The Question
sublime
the dang bird, though 😤😤😤
Change comes from the inside. The key is inside us. We are the motor of our own evolution
You mean the desire to improve?
I think change comes from realising there is no difference between inside and outside. Not saying I don't exist, but the way you interpret these words is your own. It is all you.
The only choice you don't have is to do nothing with them.
@@Ludifant change comes instantly from direct observation. No evolution Sir
Who is asking this? The same conditioned being
Not this time, mister J.K.
I am agree that we live in seek world 😢
I love you 😘💞💞
Here's a hard reasoning to follow.
Yes but important
if you follow, you are caught in the "wanting to achieve" what he is saying is not an achievement, is an understanding, that you are not your thoughts.
It is not reasoning thoug it is meditation. May be Jiddu is trying to turn into logic something that u can only feel in deep meditation. The great problem is he is trying to explain what he has found out in decades of isolated meditation. And unfortunatly the audience may be fooled thinking it is about logic and being caught as u said in reasoning.
resident evil he didn't spend decades in isolation tho that's what he talks about in his book. He did ot through whatching relationship. Sure mushrooms showed him a lot too
It is just logic, only not the logic we usually employ. We like to let illusions play a part.
We lock a door to be safe with a key, so no one can come it, but fail to notice the easily breakable window next to it. The illusion of having some control over your life is something that we are selling to each other again and again.
And humans are just bad at logic in general. Even pigeons are better. (Monty hall problem)
But if you look throughout the history of philosophy in different cultures this same point has been made at least 5 times that I know of (in slightly different ways). If a truth crops up thousands of years apart in wildly different cultures... It must mean you can find it out for yourself and it might be worth your while.
“What are you?”
The heart is an organ nothing else. Mind is king everyday. Too many allow feelings to control ones thoughts.
HAHA, U HAVE NO IDEA MY FRIEND HA.
Thank you
Wonderful 🙏🌹JK💕
❤
🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
🇺🇳28:18
❤
🙏🏻
♥️
He is write
🙌🙌
Is there a state, in which there's no cause? Ah, sir..hard question
No. Formless means without any cause. You are holding a trun-on torch in your hands, it shows you different things. Here source of light is formless and things shown by torch is states.
@@aman_axioms I like that image. There is always the choice of turning the torch of or on. It doesn't change the world much, it changes your experience a lot.
beautiful
K...... ❤️
🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
me
Come on! He never answer nothing at all!
HEAVENS above he’s a masterpiece of realisation and magnificent soul where I never got to see him in person.He had me truly think observe sense perceive and beyond.Just simple dissipation of my mortal existence
13:35
14:31
Change happens instantly. Come from an insight.