No matter who betrayed Arianne I think that we can all agree that our boy Hotah is a bad mofo, he's out here slaying a Kingsguard without breaking a sweat.
Hotah is really cool. I do want to see him going up against an opponent that’s actually worth a damn. Because… lets be honest: “Kingsguard” doesn’t mean much at that time, just look at who else had a white cloak at that time… Boros Blount, Meryn Trant… Not exactly shining examples of martial prowess.
Nice video, and I love this topic. I still believe Drey is the most likely suspect. Of course he would try to act surprised when the trap springs into action, and he has motive because he wants to marry Arianne, and getting into Doran's good books would help his chances. He even tries to de-escalate the situation and instructs the party to disarm themselves, which isn't a smoking gun by any stretch, but if Drey was the one who told, he would be hoping for the most peaceful resolution to the climax. Further arguments include the Dalts being very closely aligned with Doran, with Dezial drinking when Ricasso toasts Joffrey, and also one of Doran's favourite children at the Water Gardens being a Dalt. Additionally, Drey's punishment appears the most lenient of the three.
Man, this mastery crossed my mind today. I had already seen this video of yours, but couldn’t remember the conclusion. You’re really great at this, Kev. I love your content. Hope you’re doing well
I don't think Darkstar is the one who hurt Myrcella. I think it's part of the overall plot to bring down the Lannisters. Arys Oakheart dead, Balon Swann with Obara to "hunt" Darkstar... still unsure if it was actually Myrcella or her body double, but I think the Darkstar story is meant to muddy the waters around the actual event
@@bronhaller Wait... are you saying that Arianne took the body double instead of Myrcella??? Wouldn't Arianne know what Myrcella looks like. The body double is meant as a decoy outside of the Martell household. But Doran and Arianne would definitely know the difference between Myrcella and the body double.
Very cool, I hadn't thought of Tyene, and it certainly has a strong and personal payoff. I had previously been thinking Garin, and the payoff would be more historical, revealing how deep the bitterness of the Orphans of the Greenblood runs. I was thinking maybe he knows about Yandry and Ysilla's mission with Aegon, and thought the crowning of Myrcella would mess with the crowning of Aegon.
I love your a song of ice and fire content ✅ this one was perfect bc I’m rereading and doing “a feast for dragons” this time and I’m currently on the Queenmaker chapter
Great topic! I agree that Tyene was likely involved. Oakheart truly loved Arianne, but held Marcella and his fealty to her in highest regard. He declared his position when he put on his white cloak that day, probably knowing it would mean his death. Did he know that Hotah would be there? Could he have made this sacrifice believing he was serving Marcella AND Arianne. Mayhaps he was convinced by someone that Arianne would be best served in the long run if she maintained her alliance with Doran. Arianne admitted that Oakheart had loved her AND died for her.....its fascinating and I hope one day we have more answers. Great Job, Kev!
I have some further evidence to this theory. The Sand Snakes are no longer in the Spear Tower when Arianne is shouting for them. ““Tyene!” she called. “Tyene, are you there? Obara, Nym? Can you hear me? Ellaria? Anyone? TYENE?” The princess spent half the night hanging out the window, calling till her throat was raw, but no answering shouts came back to her. That frightened her more than she could say. If the Sand Snakes were imprisoned in the Spear Tower, they surely would have heard her shouting. Why didn’t they answer?” Hotah is told to put them there yet by the time Arianne is locked away, they have been released. Later, Hotah thinks on his unease with their presence at the feast celebrating the presentation of “The Mountain’s” head. “Areo Hotah did wonder why he had chosen to release the ladies Obara, Nymeria, and Tyene from their lonely cells in the Spear Tower.” We are meant to wonder why he chose to release them as well. Doran also has jobs for them, showing his faith in them is not completely shaken when before it was. They have managed to regain his trust.
Is it possible that it was Myrcella herself? I don't mean that Myrcella went to Doran directly. But she could have let it slip to someone. And that's how Doran found out. Arianne never considers that Myrcella could have inadvertently let it slip out, and that's curious considering that she literally ponders on everyone else on their party.
@antoineharris3426 I know she wasn't let in on the specifics of the plan, meaning her crowning. But she knew that they were going away together. Myrcella didn't need to say anything to Doran directly. But if she mentioned anything to anyone in that household, word could easily get back to Doran and game over!! I don't subscribe to this theory necessarily. I just would find it ironic if Arianne is so focused on one of her friends betraying her and it turns out that it was Myrcella who inadvertently tipped someone off.
Been a while since i read the books so this can certainly be an impossibility, but how aware was Myrcella about the plan? Had Arianne in any way tried to figure out Myrcella's thoughts about being crowned before putting the plan in motion? I would say that it certainly would be within Martin's style to make Myrcella the "traitor" since everyone seems to treat her like a chess piece with no will or thoughts on her own and at the same time, we have Oakheart praising her capabilities. Myrcella should be aware, and intelligent enough, to know that this plan of putting her on the Iron Throne has no chance of succeeding. But acting obedient as she rattles Arianne out to her father has major benefits for her, especially as a future wife to Tristane. She enders herself to her future father in law, and who knows if Arianne's betrayal is seen as hard enough it might even make her loose her line in the succession which would move Tristane up one step. Now, we know that Myrcella is supposed to be as good as anyone can be in this planetos so i doubt she would be coldly calculating like that. But I would still say that she of all the conspirators she has the best reasons to betray it and at the same time no one would suspect her since she is just "a stupid little girl".
The three biggest Suspects for the person who betrayed Arienne are her friends Drey Dalt, Sylva Santagar, and Garin of the Orphans of the Greenblood. Looking at their “punishments” I think it’s pretty clear that while both Drey and Garin betrayed Arienne, Sylva did not…
But Tyene could not know about the plan, because she was inprisonen in that moment🤔 Maybe after her speach about crowning Myrcella just gave Doran the idea that Arianne might have try to do something same?
I think it would be very GRRM if it was Garin, Drey, Silva, and Tyene. ALL of them, separately, betrayed her. That would just be awful, and very George.
I'm on the fence about whether Darkstar was actually the one who attacked Myrcella, so I don't know if that muddies the waters on who I think may have talked. Hmmmm....
The only counterpoint i have is that doran didnt hate the sand snakes but he definatly did not trust them and i feel theres two pssibilities, either he was having each of them followed to make sure they didnt do anything "rash" an after over hearing her and oakheart together someone couldve easily got ahead of her an hid in the dry well to confirm that she really was going through with her plan or was told in confidence by nymeria or one of the others in exchange for dorans promise that none of the sand snakes would be harmed
What is this based on?? Isn't ir more likely that Doran has spies everywhere that would tip him off? Not everything needs a supernatural or magical explanation.
The plan was kind of weak but I still like the character of Ariane though and can’t believe she wasn’t on the show. Actually they left almost all of Dorne off so I do believe it 🤦♂️
Great video, but I believe you are wrong. Tyne is a red herring. It's definitely one of her friends. The *Radio Westeros* podcast investigated this very mystery in one of the episodes. I believe it's the one about Arianne Martell. It's on UA-cam. My memory fails me, so I don't remember who exactly who they landed on, but I remember their evidence being very sound. Sounder than yours, unfortunately. If I'm not mistaken, it was whoever was to some Lord or Lady. I wanna say Sylva, but I can't remember. It was definitely one of her friends, though.
I always enjoy stories of Dorne. Thanks for covering in depth Arianne. You're the best!🥰
No matter who betrayed Arianne I think that we can all agree that our boy Hotah is a bad mofo, he's out here slaying a Kingsguard without breaking a sweat.
agreed!
and told Jamie it would have been a good fight if he was a whole man. {in the show}
Hotah is really cool. I do want to see him going up against an opponent that’s actually worth a damn.
Because… lets be honest: “Kingsguard” doesn’t mean much at that time, just look at who else had a white cloak at that time… Boros Blount, Meryn Trant…
Not exactly shining examples of martial prowess.
bridge, you are a integral part of this community...especially the legendary livestreams with tony teflon and gray area!
those are my people!! love them, and you as well, ser!!
Thank you for all the great content.
thanks, cramer
Nice video, and I love this topic. I still believe Drey is the most likely suspect. Of course he would try to act surprised when the trap springs into action, and he has motive because he wants to marry Arianne, and getting into Doran's good books would help his chances. He even tries to de-escalate the situation and instructs the party to disarm themselves, which isn't a smoking gun by any stretch, but if Drey was the one who told, he would be hoping for the most peaceful resolution to the climax. Further arguments include the Dalts being very closely aligned with Doran, with Dezial drinking when Ricasso toasts Joffrey, and also one of Doran's favourite children at the Water Gardens being a Dalt. Additionally, Drey's punishment appears the most lenient of the three.
I think it was Myrcella's body double who had been pretending to be Myrcella the whole time she was in Dorne.
Shouldn’t you think it’s Marcella sacrificing her cousin to stay hidden?
Been waiting for a release date to do a reread. It’s nice to have these book exclusive plots refreshed here. F Moash.
Thanks!
Man, this mastery crossed my mind today.
I had already seen this video of yours, but couldn’t remember the conclusion.
You’re really great at this, Kev. I love your content.
Hope you’re doing well
Always assumed it was double agent Darkstar. Figured somehow Doran and Darkstar both think their playing the other.
I don't think Darkstar is the one who hurt Myrcella. I think it's part of the overall plot to bring down the Lannisters. Arys Oakheart dead, Balon Swann with Obara to "hunt" Darkstar... still unsure if it was actually Myrcella or her body double, but I think the Darkstar story is meant to muddy the waters around the actual event
@@bronhaller Wait... are you saying that Arianne took the body double instead of Myrcella??? Wouldn't Arianne know what Myrcella looks like. The body double is meant as a decoy outside of the Martell household. But Doran and Arianne would definitely know the difference between Myrcella and the body double.
man I miss your videos. got really out of this world after S8 but your vids remind me why this series is so great
Awesome content, Kev. Please dont give up!
This was so much fun! Thank you for the video. ❤
Very cool, I hadn't thought of Tyene, and it certainly has a strong and personal payoff. I had previously been thinking Garin, and the payoff would be more historical, revealing how deep the bitterness of the Orphans of the Greenblood runs. I was thinking maybe he knows about Yandry and Ysilla's mission with Aegon, and thought the crowning of Myrcella would mess with the crowning of Aegon.
Also you’ve convinced me it’s Tiene. I never thought about her either. Great video!
I love your a song of ice and fire content ✅ this one was perfect bc I’m rereading and doing “a feast for dragons” this time and I’m currently on the Queenmaker chapter
nice, enjoy the ride!!
Valeu!
Great topic! I agree that Tyene was likely involved. Oakheart truly loved Arianne, but held Marcella and his fealty to her in highest regard. He declared his position when he put on his white cloak that day, probably knowing it would mean his death. Did he know that Hotah would be there? Could he have made this sacrifice believing he was serving Marcella AND Arianne. Mayhaps he was convinced by someone that Arianne would be best served in the long run if she maintained her alliance with Doran. Arianne admitted that Oakheart had loved her AND died for her.....its fascinating and I hope one day we have more answers. Great Job, Kev!
Amazing video as always, God I wish they included Arianne in GoT. Her plot in the books is interesting.
I have some further evidence to this theory. The Sand Snakes are no longer in the Spear Tower when Arianne is shouting for them.
““Tyene!” she called. “Tyene, are you there? Obara, Nym? Can you hear me? Ellaria? Anyone? TYENE?” The princess spent half the night hanging out the window, calling till her throat was raw, but no answering shouts came back to her. That frightened her more than she could say. If the Sand Snakes were imprisoned in the Spear Tower, they surely would have heard her shouting. Why didn’t they answer?”
Hotah is told to put them there yet by the time Arianne is locked away, they have been released. Later, Hotah thinks on his unease with their presence at the feast celebrating the presentation of “The Mountain’s” head. “Areo Hotah did wonder why he had chosen to release the ladies Obara, Nymeria, and Tyene from their lonely cells in the Spear Tower.” We are meant to wonder why he chose to release them as well. Doran also has jobs for them, showing his faith in them is not completely shaken when before it was. They have managed to regain his trust.
Is it possible that it was Myrcella herself? I don't mean that Myrcella went to Doran directly. But she could have let it slip to someone. And that's how Doran found out. Arianne never considers that Myrcella could have inadvertently let it slip out, and that's curious considering that she literally ponders on everyone else on their party.
Except Marcella really wasn’t let in on the plan.
@antoineharris3426 I know she wasn't let in on the specifics of the plan, meaning her crowning. But she knew that they were going away together. Myrcella didn't need to say anything to Doran directly. But if she mentioned anything to anyone in that household, word could easily get back to Doran and game over!!
I don't subscribe to this theory necessarily. I just would find it ironic if Arianne is so focused on one of her friends betraying her and it turns out that it was Myrcella who inadvertently tipped someone off.
Been a while since i read the books so this can certainly be an impossibility, but how aware was Myrcella about the plan? Had Arianne in any way tried to figure out Myrcella's thoughts about being crowned before putting the plan in motion? I would say that it certainly would be within Martin's style to make Myrcella the "traitor" since everyone seems to treat her like a chess piece with no will or thoughts on her own and at the same time, we have Oakheart praising her capabilities. Myrcella should be aware, and intelligent enough, to know that this plan of putting her on the Iron Throne has no chance of succeeding. But acting obedient as she rattles Arianne out to her father has major benefits for her, especially as a future wife to Tristane. She enders herself to her future father in law, and who knows if Arianne's betrayal is seen as hard enough it might even make her loose her line in the succession which would move Tristane up one step. Now, we know that Myrcella is supposed to be as good as anyone can be in this planetos so i doubt she would be coldly calculating like that. But I would still say that she of all the conspirators she has the best reasons to betray it and at the same time no one would suspect her since she is just "a stupid little girl".
The three biggest Suspects for the person who betrayed Arienne are her friends Drey Dalt, Sylva Santagar, and Garin of the Orphans of the Greenblood. Looking at their “punishments” I think it’s pretty clear that while both Drey and Garin betrayed Arienne, Sylva did not…
Hey Kev, I can’t seem to find where I become a channel member at?
But Tyene could not know about the plan, because she was inprisonen in that moment🤔
Maybe after her speach about crowning Myrcella just gave Doran the idea that Arianne might have try to do something same?
I think it would be very GRRM if it was Garin, Drey, Silva, and Tyene. ALL of them, separately, betrayed her. That would just be awful, and very George.
I'm on the fence about whether Darkstar was actually the one who attacked Myrcella, so I don't know if that muddies the waters on who I think may have talked. Hmmmm....
The only counterpoint i have is that doran didnt hate the sand snakes but he definatly did not trust them and i feel theres two pssibilities, either he was having each of them followed to make sure they didnt do anything "rash" an after over hearing her and oakheart together someone couldve easily got ahead of her an hid in the dry well to confirm that she really was going through with her plan or was told in confidence by nymeria or one of the others in exchange for dorans promise that none of the sand snakes would be harmed
Servants and/or Arianne herself seem more likely to me, but I’m not sure.
GEORGE loves chopping bits off
The Lannister's😂🤷♂️.
Jamies Hand,
Marcellas Ear,
Tyrion's nose and possibly his Tounge By the end of TWOW or ADOS
If Doran had access to a glass candle, he might not need someone to tell.
Hotah might not know/protect this secret.
Oakheart did. He did it to make sure he protected his princess.
this is a good video
❤
There is the possibility that Doran has a glass candle.
What is this based on?? Isn't ir more likely that Doran has spies everywhere that would tip him off? Not everything needs a supernatural or magical explanation.
The plan was kind of weak but I still like the character of Ariane though and can’t believe she wasn’t on the show. Actually they left almost all of Dorne off so I do believe it 🤦♂️
Darkstar didn’t cut myrcella imo he was framed just the way they feed him for aerys oak heart
Great video, but I believe you are wrong. Tyne is a red herring. It's definitely one of her friends. The *Radio Westeros* podcast investigated this very mystery in one of the episodes. I believe it's the one about Arianne Martell. It's on UA-cam. My memory fails me, so I don't remember who exactly who they landed on, but I remember their evidence being very sound. Sounder than yours, unfortunately. If I'm not mistaken, it was whoever was to some Lord or Lady. I wanna say Sylva, but I can't remember. It was definitely one of her friends, though.
My name is Arianne
B...
R…
I…
D....
E...
Snitches... All in all, it was best their plan failed. At least kinda. Her plan was weak.