Correction: a lot of comments have informed me that you DO actually gain HP during fights in Deltarune Chapter 2 as a reward for winning. Sorry, my mistake!
in my opinion, the creepiest scene is the one you get if you take Noelle's watch and put it on Kris in the Snow grave route. i say that because it confirms to Noelle that none of what happened was a dream. she has to live with the guilt of knowing she killed everyone in the cyber world when she could have stopped at any time, knowing that she could have ended everything at any point in time and saved so many lives but simply didn't, and knowing that she killed berdly when she didn't have to
I think the true purpose of Chara is to bring out something even worse by BEING that scapegoat. Just the fact that so many people blamed their sins onto this dead child feels so much worse.
Chara's motives after killing the humans is left up to interpretation because we don't know if their intentions were to use their brother to kill more innocent people. Granted the player does more than that in Genocide, but one could argue Chara could be evil in their intention to harm others if their willingness was to abuse Asriel's power. I mean I always found it strange how Chara only reawakens from hatred in the player's heart. Chara's reincarnation is heavily blurred in pacifist and neutral leaving only speculation that they are the narrator.
@@Daniel328DT i do think chara got reincarnated in pacifist and neutral, just not in the same way. We got those flashbacks in waterfall and during the asriel fight, which could only come from chara, (Same goes for the game over message, which is asgore talking to a sick chara, using the name we chose - chara's name - not frisk, meaning it's comming, again, from chara) for example. Chara is definetly there, just not as strong. I think the difference is LV and EXP. Determination awakened them, but LV and EXP gave them more and more power the more and more those numbers increased. It makes sense with that much power to be more prominent in the real world.
@don'tfeel I wouldn't say Chara isn't a good person, they're not the best as Asriel says, but Chara isn't bad *or* completely good, In my personal opinion it's better to stick neutral. I do agree with you however that on genocide they think their purpose is power.
I believe that the whole point of Chara's speech at the end was to prevent the player from using them as a scapegoat. Regardless of its ultimate effectiveness, the dialogue seemingly intended to hold the player responsible. " _Your_ power awakened me from death. My human soul... my determination... they were not mine, but _your's_ " "Why was I brought back to life? With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power."
There's also the dialogue you get from doing a second genocide route in which they become disgusted after realizing you did the genocide route for fun,I still don't get why people think they're responsible for it
@@justvibingowo736 Yeah, the way Chara almost resentfully asks the player what they're looking for is the biggest giveaway. After waking up confused, they were molded by our actions thinking the purpose of their reincarnation was power, then when we reset everything back to zero, they can't understand why we'd do such a thing.
I think the problem is that people don’t pay too close attention every bit of dialogue, but the shocking, crazy things that follow. Chara makes a creepy jump scare and takes your soul to restore the world. It makes them seem more like the devil than a child. It doesn’t help that they didn’t have a clear personality in the neutral/Pacifist route, so people thought this is always their personality. Or maybe people are just stupid idk
@@waluigiisthebest2802 i mean you don't need to know every piece of dialogue,the one you get before they ask for your soul to restore the world is enough evidence that they're not responsible for it.i have no issues with evil chara,but blaming them for the genocide route kinda goes against the whole point of the route for me,also toby has somehow become a better writer so people won't get this confusion with kris in the weird route,hopefully
Hell yeah buddy! You get it! I'll use the same quote I used for some knucklehead trying to tell me Chara manipulated us: "It was you led this world to it's destruction. But you cannot accept it. You think you are above consequences."
I'd like to point out the point of Sans' fight, since it's quite ingenious. Toby intended for a first timer to die repeatedly, usually even over 100 times, just to turn you into the monster that you are portraying. In those first attempts, you'd probably feel immense anger and frustration. After some progress, you may feel some clarity or progression. But if you've truly struggled, by the end, you'll have no emotions anymore. You'll finally watch sans die. You won't feel any guilt about killing him or any other monster anymore. You truly do get shifted into the blood-lusting monster you had been playing as all this time.
Pretty much this precisely. Beating Sans is literally one of those things in games where you just kind of have to "want it more than the opponent" - I remember when I went through it I was pretty much already fully aware of what the Genocide Run looks like, and when I got to Sans (although MUCH more with Undyne) it really was a matter of just being determined enough to Do That Thing
Not exactly for me. Sure there were points of frustration, but there was one ever growing emotion that increased with each attempt. That emotion? Determination
I've always felt like portraying Chara as some irredeemable, genocidal, bloodthirsty, human who's responsible for the genocide route, if you ever did the genocide route, was blaming them for your own actions. They're the ones who started the genocide route, not Chara, Chara did not force you to choose that path. Whether or not they're innocent, you're still the one who chose to do it. Same with Kris, it is heavily implied that the Player is a separate entity from Kris from Noelle's like talking about a separate voice, you're the one who chooses to manipulate Noelle into killing people, not Kris.
@@LucasDarkGiygas I said that they aren't exactly completely innocent, but they are not the one killing everyone. They also tell you to take a different route if you do genocide twice.
The Snowgrave route also puts into perspective what we're doing to Kris. We practically turned Noelle into our second puppet, to the point she starts listening to OUR commands, not Kris'. What happens to Noelle is basically what Chara went through in the genocide route, except it's much more direct here.
It's more "direct" because we've never done with Chara what we do with Noelle. And Noelle doesn't stop listening to Kris' commands. It's just that only we give commands here. Noelle thought all this time that Kris was saying it, even if she notes at the end that the voice is not similar.
@@justauser6078 When OP says "direct," they more mean "obvious." We don't SEE the manipulation of Chara because they're not a character that's physically present in the game (aside from the Geno Route ending), but the parallels between Noelle and Chara are eerily similar. For example, there's Noelle's, "If Kris tells me to do it... I can do things I could never do before. I'm getting stronger." compared to Chara's, "With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power. Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong." No one questions whether or not Noelle is being manipulated because we SEE it happening, right in front of us, in plain dialogue. It's a bit more up to the player to figure out with Chara, though. At least that's my thoughts on it
@@sensiblegh0st86 And if we don't do anything with Chara, we don't manipulate Chara. Chara sees our actions and comes to his conclusions HIMSELF. Without our intrusion. We didn't promote any ideas to him. At the same time, the idea of "stronger" is not Noelle's idea. She was told by one of the darkners that it was a normal thing to do. * "C'mon, angel! You can't get stronger without good equipment! Noelle: * Stronger...? R-right, I guess that's how it works here... You can kill even more on a neutral path, and Chara doesn't start behaving like that. On the path of genocide, unlike Noelle, Chara was not told anything and was not asked for anything. Chara just decided he'd join in on this. Noelle didn't do it on her own, and each of her actions required a push from us in the form of [dialog options] or [choosing an ACTion for her during the battle]. This is just ONE of the many things listed that distinguishes them. And Noelle perceives what is happening more as something unreal. She was also told by one of the darkners that she "can't get stronger without good equipment," and only after that Noelle began to think that Kris requires her to be stronger, wants her to be stronger. Because he made her get this ring, which will make her stronger, and does other things with her, making her stronger. But as soon as she received direct confirmation from Susie that it was a dream, she started talking not so much about "becoming stronger" as about a dream. Again, this was also mentioned in the links. For Chara, this is definitely not a dream, and a HUMAN is killing those who cared about him. Who would even start helping a serial killer kill their family for no reason other than "the killer is doing it, in that case I will do it too"? No child will start killing if they JUST see a serial killer killing their family. Even if it's 20 kills, even more. I have not seen a single case when, because of this, normal children without mental problems initially would start killing together with those who harmed their loved ones, and didn't experience emotional breakdowns and locked themselves in. And instead of helping a serial killer, calling them "partner" and saying "We'll be together forever, won't we?" they will hate and despise this killer. At the same time, when Noelle realizes that they are about to fight Berdly, she tells him to run away: * W-wait, Berdly, stop! * Run away! After which the battle begins. If you don't kill Berdly (option "I'm protecting her from you!"), Noelle will feel relieved: * (Th... That's right, what was I thinking just now?) * (That's right... Kris is my friend, right?) What Chara says? * In my way - MK encounter. * Looks like free EXP - MK CHECK. Our actions gave Chara the idea with which he started acting. Our actions with Noelle were to pressure her, manipulate her and literally be abusive with her. She's AFRAID of us. Chara considers us a partner and becomes the one who dominates you in the end. Chara is also the one in the shop who says "Take it" about an item that you can steal. You click on this item, and Chara says it. Chara leads you down the path of genocide as soon as you start it. Chara speaks disparagingly and cruelly about monsters, calls the child a "free EXP", tells you to continue. You're leading Noelle, pushing her. Noelle justifies it by saying it's good. Chara directly calls himself a demon on the second path of genocide and says that your actions are sins. See the difference? That's not even all that distinguishes them. Noelle at the end: Susie: * ... uhh, you're in a good mood. * Did you, uh, have a good dream? Noelle: * It was a nightmare. Susie: * Oh. Noelle: * I'm... I'm just happy I woke up. Susie: * ... Noelle: * The... end was nice, through. Susie: * What happened? (Interested expression with a smile) Noelle: * HAHA, w-well, umm-- * HAHA HEY, Berdly time to get up and go! I see it as a reference to what happened between her and Susie. She woke up in a good mood because, again, having a good time with Susie. And she considers what she was doing before that a nightmare. At the same time, Chara after killing Toriel in the Demo: * That was fun. Let's finish the job.
@@justauser6078 Firstly, it's uh. They/them for Chara. If we're establishing that they're their own person separate from the player, then we need to use the pronouns that everyone (including loved ones and adopted family) use for them. Secondly, we're not DIRECTLY controlling Noelle's actions, she's choosing to listen. I'm not saying that she's not being manipulated but Susie has shown us that characters can ignore commands given by the player (Kris can't, though). And Chara, even in the geno route, doesn't kill anyone on their own until near the very end of the game, at which point the kill counter is up to nearly fifty people. I'm just saying, if a child who died a violent death was suddenly brought back to life as a ghost and forced to trail after someone who was killing people relentlessly, I'm not sure I would expect them to stay completely sane. I don't think I'D stay completely sane. This is not to excuse their actions, but to explain them. If Chara really wanted to kill everyone they could have tried to persuade the player/Frisk to do so from the beginning, because as we see from the text upon looking at the mirror in Asgore's home in the geno route, Chara CAN talk outside of red text, and it's implied in the game that they're the narrator (although this is not ENTIRELY confirmed)
I feel another thing that makes the Snowgrave Route stand out from Genocide Route is the fact you'd actively have to seek out a guide to even do this route. It's much more hidden and requires more than just killing every killable enemy you come across. It requires certain steps to even just trigger this route.
@@Stop_fucking_changing_thenameno, no mercy is like the “leaderless” ending. to me, no mercy is just killing every encounter you come across, as opposes to geno which is seeking out encounters. though many look at no mercy = geno
This is something I always found odd about people saying Deltarune's Snowgrave route is worse than Undertale's genocide since you're manipulating someone." But doesn't that already kind of happen in Undertale with Chara? Granted, we don't really know Chara's motives completely, they were definitely a strange and troublesome kid. But in the Neutral or Pacifist route they show sorrow towards monsters if you believe in the Chara Narrator theory.
I wouldn't say your manipulating Chara, it would be more along the lines of influencing Charas preexisting resentment and amplifying it through your own actions. Something I find interesting is the idea that the three main routes you choose will determine who is ultimately in control of the body at the very end, a neutral route has the player as the one in control, at the end of the Genocide Route Chara is the one who takes control because you fostered their hatred until it surpassed your own, and in a pacifist route it's Frisk who's in control hence why you are physically incapable of landing attacks against the Amalgamates or insulting them, because you fed into Frisks gentle nature so much that it overrides your control, it also explains why Frisks determination becomes so great that not even Asriel, the single most powerful character in the game can kill Frisk, if the player or Chara had that kind of determination Sans wouldn't even be a challenge. In the end we don't know what happens to Chara in a pacifist run (assuming you didn't do a genocide run) but if Chara really is the Narrator I think you can leave them at peace.
No, Chara uses the player, like the Batter in OFF. Imagine if Noelle said SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL? Chara not being a villain removes everything that makes her unique.
@@cathulhu5470 no one says that Chara isn't complicit, but Chara is only ever in control at the very end, Chara is only marginally more guilty of a genocide run than Spamton is in a snowgrave route (and even that's debatable) The player is the one in control up until the very end, you can stop a genocide run at any point up until you kill Flowey and Asgore and Chara won't stop you from stopping, heck if you do a pacifist run right after you kill Sans Chara will never mention a genocide route again unless you completely saw a genocide route through. Saying that Chara is the one in control is a flat out lie.
I basically agree with everything in this video, but a very big mistake you made was that you said Kris was the one forcing Noelle to commit these horrible deeds. The difference between player and protagonist is made pretty clear in deltarune and it's important to stress that it wasn't Kris who made Noelle do this, it was you, the player. I'm sure you're aware of this since you explicitly stated it, but I still think the choice of wording is important.
@@jamly3465 Some people believe that in all Toby games, the Player is a COMPLETELY different entity than the characters they play AS. This is more-or-less outright confirmed to be the case for Deltarune. This leads to the belief that, through doing a geno route as Frisk, who is followed around and somewhat helped by Chara, that Chara is actually innocent...ish and that the player has been manipulating them to, in turn, manipulate frisk. I myself believe that this is the case, since the alternative does not. make. fucking. sense. considering the message that the game tries to teach you. "Your actions matter. They have consequences for better, or worse." Others still cling on to the idea that Chara is some demonic child or something and is single-handedly responsible for the route... despite the fact that the route only triggers when you, the player, decide to kill all their friends in the ruins and even their own adoptive mother.
In Deltarune its reinstated several times that Kris is different from the player But in Undertale it did feel like Frisk was supposed to be the player, especially considering the way Frisk can canonically save and reset just like we can irl
I feel like Snowgrave route is what Toby tried to represent Undertale's Genocide route but Chara being made to be an excuse instead. so he did it so you are making someone else killing everyone, but having a character still going against the person who did all of the frozen monster.
In Snowgrave, were forcing Kris to turn his childhood friend into a murder, killing even their own friend. (Berdly.) Kris is forced to watch, not able to do anything as we procced for fun. Undertale you kill them all, forceing a dead child to watch you kill every last line of them. They looked to you for guidance, and you showed them it's kill or be killed. They help you, wanting to get it over and done with already, then after becoming determined enough punish you for your actions. So, in a way, Kris is experiencing what Chara was.
I feel like it actually makes sense that Chara become more violent and controlling in the Genocide route due to the amount of LOVE you have. In a neutral run, sans says “The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others.” and this would also be applying to Chara throughout the whole game.
8:22 It's ironic that back then people made “AUs” of countless genocide routes and whether it was Chara's fault or Chara completely controls the body. But in the Undertale canon, after doing a second genocide route in a row, Chara says they no longer understands the player, suggests doing another route and accuses the player saying "You. You are wracked with a perverted sentimentality". So imagine Chara actually watching player doing countless genocide routes, lmao
To me, it seems to me that Toby Fox looked at the assumptions people made about Chara in Undertale (assumptions I believe are false. Chara is clearly far from a good person, but one of the things they make explicitly clear during the game is that she HATES Humans, and loves Monsters, so I highly doubt she'd be directly aiding in Genocide to kill said monsters, simply becoming far more pessimistic and present due to the player actions), and decided to get rid of that scapegoat by making it so in Deltarune, the Player fills the role people thought that Character filled. In Deltarune, YOU are the person who gains a larger presence as the story progresses. In Deltarune, YOU are the one who actively goads another character (Noelle in this case) into killing everyone until that's all they want to do. In Deltarune, YOU are the person controlling different people, Noelle and Kris, and stripping them of their free will as you turn them into killing machines. In Deltarune, YOU are the only person who can be blamed for the actions that occur in the game. You can't blame Kris because it's explicitly shown that they have no control during the events of the game, you can't blame Noelle because the Player actively goads them into doing everything which makes there actions a direct result of your own actions This is what I believe Toby Fox did, he took all the assumptions others made about Chara within Undertale and made it impossible to have that same scapegoat in Deltarune, by making YOU into that monster
@EL AUTENTICO What do you mean no manipulating? It's directly shown we are manipulating Noelle by using her timidness against her. She's the kind of person who can't really say no to what anyone says, she's the kind of person to do what everybody says because she's too afraid of ehat happens if she says no and not independent enough to do so. If it wasn't for the Player, Noelle never would've frozen a single enemy, if it wasn't for the Player, she never would've gotten those Rings, if it wasn't for the player, Noelle would have never been traumatized to the point where she refused to let her own dad play a video game for her in fear of losing control of the situation again. Hell, the manipulation feels somewhat supernatural even given how effective it is, as if somehow Noelle is slowly being guided to being connected to The Soul in the same way Kris is
This is something I agree with. However Chara had no reason to get involved in the first place and it was their choice to follow us since we aren't aware that Chara silently joined our murder spree until they directly spoke to us at the end of genocide run. They are also enthusiastic about killing monsters which is not something Noelle and Kris felt when we made them kill darkners and Berdly. In Undertale Chara and us are both faulty for committing genocide whereas we are the only ones at fault in the weird run.
I find it annoying when they celebrates about Undyne and Sans getting successfully killed. But THEY FEEL bad when they kill Papyrus and Toriel. Probably that's just my opinion and it's completely understandable because they are the most difficult boss in the game.
its not about feeling bad, its about FINALLY doing what you set out to do, even if it comes at a great cost. its nice to know that you beat one of the hardest bosses (according to some websites, but i dont know if i should trust it, as they put the ender dragon in the top 30)
@@doodlehobbo8697 They feel powerful because you just beat either Undyne or Sans, both of which are highly considered the hardest bosses in the game by far, so when you finally beat them after dozens of attempts, you feel satisfied. Also hard to take the sans fight seriously anymore because it’s the funni skeleton. People feel bad for papyrus because he thought that you could change your ways and be a good person, so he was left defenceless, Toriel was also defenceless because she had no clue you would be so powerful.
@@Tokzic67 And the reason why they fight in the first place because their trying to stop you from continuing the killing spree. Even though Sans knows you can't be permanently killed his still fighting you just to give you a warning of what's gonna happens next. Wether their strong or weak at the end of the day the players kill them all out of curiosity.
1:37 the comparison of Chara's jump scare form and Noelle's face when she casts Snowgrave is very valid. Their eyes are just that creepy. It fits the routes well.
The Snowgrave route can also make a chain reaction to the later chapters. After a Snowgrave route, Noelle literally has more health and attack damage than Susie, has the only fatal spell in the game, and she also has a heal prayer spell. If she manages to find out that the dark world isn't actually a dream and seek revenge to the team, she can one shot everyone in the team, hell, she can even kill one member of the team.
The sad thing is, in reality Chara and Noelle are in the same situation with the player, its just that as Chara is the narrator its easy to write off what Chara says or doesn't say, their initial stats (which like are like Noelle's) and miss the small character ques, like giving back control when Flowey forms his old face and begs Chara not to kill him. This is actually your last chance to abort the genocide run and it is you that has to force Chara to proceed. Chara even outright states that it was YOU that taught her to be that way.
Chara couldn't be any different from Noelle. She actually considered herself a partner and enjoyed what she was doing and was much more malicious. Don't even compare them
@@ItsB1998 Chara is only more malicious after a high LV, something Nolle never reaches. Both characters are tricked into thinking killing makes them stronger. Thats even the reason Chara gives for thinking you and her were partners. Why do you think she is so disgusted when you come back and then reveal you want the world back....just so you can kill them all again? Though considering your hostility, (I'll continue to compare them btw) it seems you do not know that Chara is the narrator on all routes and think she is nothing more than evil demon. corrupting Frisk, despite the dialogue showing that isn't the case.
@@TheSwordsman100 Noelle was actually being told to attack and kill people though. Chara wasn't, and never once showed any problem with doing it. Chara being the narrator on the other routes isn't confirmed. She only has confirmed speaking moments on the genocide route, along with a visible presence.
@@ItsB1998 Oh on the contrariety, she goes dead silent when you battle against Torial, roots for Genocide!Undyne and after even after being fully corrupted and taking control of Frisk to "help" she instantly and suddenly gives back control when Asriel begs for his life and it is you that has to supply that final push. (fun fact this is your final chance to do a reset before losing the chance to do a true pacfist run) Its not jossed either, even after all this time, the same logic can apply to almost everything regarding Gaster, Toby does not do one note major characters, has way too much evidence for it just to be a theory, the other theory that Chara is responsible for the Genocide route goes against the moral of said route and finally someone had to supply the memory needed to SAVE Asriel as it wasn't us nor Frisk.
@@TheSwordsman100 As I understand it, when we press the z button on the neutral path to close the dialog, and Flowey kills Asgore after that, is it also we're pushing? No. This is the mechanics of the game. In Sans' case, you press the FIGHT button, and that triggers the cut scene. In the case of Asgore AND Flowey, you press Z to CLOSE THE DIALOG or see the next dialog, and the characters start attacking by their choice, this is the trigger for the cut scene. And here we DON'T make a choice, we don't say anything to the characters. Because our choice is to press the FIGHT button. You tell Noelle to "Proceed" when you press the Proceed" button (who would know, right?), not when you just randomly press the z button. And Chara doesn't become silent in the battle with Toriel. He is silent only when you already press the MERCY button (on any path), and she says her dialogues. Not when you attack. If you try to talk to Toriel, Chara will say: * Not worth talking to. And after killing her in a Demo Chara says: * That was fun. Let's finish the job. In the case of Undyne: You can feel respect for your opponents, you know? And not because you want them to win. Because they have earned respect. In Undyne's case at the genocide, Chara could feel respect and admiration for her as a strong opponent who even overcame death itself to fight. And that's why Chara calls Undyne what ALL the monsters called her - the heroine. Because that's who Undyne is. That's not Chara's personal opinion. This is the monster opinion that Chara projects. **Gerson:** * I'm not a hero. But I know there's someone out there. Someone who'll never give up trying to do the right thing, no matter what. There's no prophecy or legend 'bout anyone like that. It's just something I know is true. * **That someone like that will strike you down.** **Undyne:** * I, Undyne... **Will strike you down!** You see? It's happening. Chara sees this, and when he used to talk about Gerson as a hero to fight (there's a "Fight" option in the conversation with him), he now sees the TRUE hero - the one Gerson was talking about. Chara calls a spade a spade. Here is only respect for Undyne as a powerful monster who has defeated even death, who is determined and has the same goal that Chara once had in life - to collect human souls and make humanity suffer in order to take back the surface. Chara is sympathetic to this goal. But that doesn't stop Chara from continuing down that path with the Player, killing Undyne. Because he has a different plan now ("This isn't just about monsters anymore, is it? (in our case, "humans"). If you get past me, you'll... you'll destroy them all, won't you? Monsters... Humans... Everyone..."). Chara has enough respect for Undyne to call her what she really is - a hero. She's not a hero because Chara likes her so much. This is a statement of fact. And he doesn't really participate in the battle with her, because he's just mostly watching to see if his partner can kill a determined monster. He doesn't give ***all*** his strength. A monster that refused to die, even though she should have died with a single hit, just as everyone else died from Chara's help to the Player. But Chara takes a little step back and... want to see what happens. He doesn't support ANYONE here. He doesn't say a word of support to Undyne (only states the facts), and he doesn't tell you to die. He doesn't talking cruelly about her, either. And Chara admires her strength, because Chara has always admired strong creatures.
Very interesting video, but I can think of another reason someone might do the Snowgrave Route: They were too scared to do Undertale’s Genocide Route because of the consequences and the story being ruined for them, but because Deltarune makes a point of your choices not mattering, they now feel like they have nothing to hold them back from the Genocide Run Experience. They attempt the run, ready to make Frozen Fields of the Dark’s Hopes and Dreams. Of course, then it turns out that just freezing everyone isn’t enough; you actually have to abuse Noelle outside of battles as well, then they end up stopping because they couldn’t bring themselves to take it that far… yeah.
Might make me a little messed up for doing this but I basically did it for the reason you said, Not wanting to spend a stupid amount of time to do a alternative route and also funni pipis room
Just finished snowgrave. Also heres a thing. Why would you Play Genocide route in DeltaRune? 1.Funny Harder Mattaton Salesman 2.You want to see dialogs,how have they chenged. 3.You've seen some comics and want to see what is in game
Reminder: Chara is supposed to be the name of your save file. Likely your own name. Chara is supposed to be you. It’s a shame that Chara became their own character ruining the whole point of that ending. Imagine if there was no canon name for Chara. No character to take the blame. In discussion you would have no choice but to refer to that thing at the end as ‘the player’, ‘you’, or better yet, ‘me’.
clearly the snowgrave route is in response to so many people using chara as a scapegoat in undertale, toby's made it more obvious this time that the player is the one responsible for their actions
@@ItsB1998 Oh I didn't realize it jsut ended there. My full question was gonna be where the possibilities lie for both Chara and Kris I can understand the implication on the former, but the latter implicatiom is a stretch since it is outright confirmed Kris has no willing aay in any of this
@@IronycheinPain It's not confirmed that Kris's doesn't have any say in what's happening though, that was my point. At most Snowgrave just shows Kris has another entity like Chara controlling them
My thoughts on Deltarune Chapter 2 Snowgrave is this. You the player knows your actions don't matter , and no matter how much you attack YOU can't kill the monsters as they will always run away , but upon chapter 2 a thought probably comes in. If you can't kill the monsters yourself...what if someone else did it for you. The other character's aren't bound by these rules , they could kill other monsters if they wanted it to but don't, however You've manipulated Noelle just enough to make her use Ice Shock on enemies and Snowgrave on her closest friend. You found a tool this chapter to use to gain more control over Kris and the games rules they have set on you.
Just as flowey said... "At least we're better than those sickos who stand around and watch it happen... Those pathetic people that want to see it but are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that is watching right now, aren't they...?"
I think the deltarune fandom learned from the undertale that we are responsible for our actions. Not kris, not chara, not frisk, us we are responsible for our actions
Chara is still responsible for following us in the first place after watching us murder what they cared about rather than object to our actions. That still doesn't make us any less faulty since we are the ones who pressed the fight button and continue fulfilling the genocide run requirements.
I love how I genuenly felt bad about doing the Genocide Route in Undertale so I quit once I got into Waterfall but I literally speedrun Snowgrave Route for fun (I haven't submitted anything as I'm not good at speedrunning it but still) Also in Snowgrave you do get more hp from freezing the monsters as by the end Frisk and Noelle end up at around 160 hp while at the beinning there at like 100 or something
The characters also have their attack and magic stats increased by 1 after every 10 battles where an enemy was defeated violently (aside from Noelle who gets the increase after every 4 battles). As a side-note, if you freeze one enemy in a single battle but not the others you can keep battling them and raise your attack and magic stats (and Noelle’s HP) as high as you want.
The thing is, i never saw Chara as the culprit. I always thought your actions shaped them. If you kill, you corrupt Chara. In a Pacifist run, you bring them some peace as they aid you, aka allowing Frisk to read the Monster language, in theory. In Undertale, you corrupted a spirit looking for a way out. In Deltarune, you broke an innocent girl down and made her slaughter people. Regardless, YOU are the monster, not Frisk or Kris.
@charlieee994 at first, I didn’t. But the more I thought about it over the years, the more I realized. In other games, you can just say “I’m the hero so my actions are justified”. But in Undertale and Deltarune, you don’t get such a luxury. Toby Fox made such immaculately detailed games and stories that I enjoy learning more and more about them.
Regardless of what Chara's true nature is in the genocide ending, they straight up tell you that your actions were responsible for bringing them back and shaping what they think is the true meaning of their existence.
I don't know about other people, but the reason why the Snowgrave Route bothers me more than Undertale's Genocide Route is because of how intrusive it is for Noelle. You read her thoughts, gaslight her into committing murder, and even say some creepy ex spouse stuff. You even go as far as to threaten her with death. This is the nicest character in the game, and you twist her into something unrecognizable. She's always wanted to stand up for herself, but you're teaching her to do it in all the wrong ways. You're not teaching her about confidence, but teaching her that using your strength as a weapon to force others into giving you what you want is an means to an end. That's not just toxic, that's flat out abuse. The Genocide Route does everything within its power to tell you what you're doing is wrong and it's not until the very end of it that there's a point of no return. Frisk is also a blank slate avatar who is just a sit in for the Player. But in Snowgrave, the insidious nature of emotional abuse that's being inflicted on Noelle starts to rear its ugly head within her mentality. Not to mention, Kris is witnessing all of this and is unable to do anything about it. So there are two kids who are being traumatized and one is now in critical condition if not dead from your actions. To conclude, Snowgrave just feels more......personal than Genocide. Genocide is more of a grand thing, that affects everyone. Snowgrave feels like it was meant to torment Noelle specifically, and that's so messed up.
One reason why nobody stumbles upon Undertale’s genocide route is because the player has to actively go for it. If a player kills every encountered monster while heading directly to the exit, that player will get a neutral ending. The player has to walk around, waiting for an encounter, and encounters happen less frequently as monsters are killed and other monsters avoid the murderous player. In a geno route, a player decides to walk around and kill every encounter until the ‘but nobody came’ message shows up. The kill counters that appear after the Ruins further emphasis that on a geno route, it isn’t about collecting EXP or money or items, it’s about murdering monsters.
Remember kids, don't use Chara as a scapegoat. Take responsibility for your kills. Keep up the good work, grind that exp. Get that LoVE. Get. More. POWER
Uh ooooooh, talking about Chara, eh? That's gonna be a wall of text from me! Please do read! Prepare yourself: I get what you mean about the flaw in the genocide route's messaging to be honest. I find it a bit difficult to call it a flaw, per say, but that's probably due entirely to my interpretation of Chara. While I love that Toby made them pretty ambiguous, I have a hard time seeing my and other elite members of the Chara Defense Force's interpretations as anything but the right ones. For me the interpretations are not "is Chara evil or not?", but "how not evil is Chara?", with my personal view being "only kinda not evil" because flawed characters are great. Anything outside of that, to me, may as well be factually wrong. If anything, I'd say the flaw is that Chara and the genocide route are so easy MISinterpretable. Rather than anything within the game itself ruining the messaging, I see the flaw as writing in a way that that allows people to ruin the messaging for themselves. I feel this was worth it, of course, to keep Chara ambiguous and interesting. Deltarune has reignited my passion for analyzing my favorite undertale character, after all! That said, I think snowgrave is definitely an improvement in this area. It's so much harder to get the wrong idea here*, and if anything it kinda proves us pro-Chara's right; The same thing is basically happening here that happened in undertale, it's just a different aspect of it is being focused on. For one, it's much more grounded in a way. GR is about feeling bad for killing tons of people, something most people aren't gonna ever experience. Abuse, on the other hand, is something many people may experience or even perpetrate. Then, of course, you can't hide from the fact you're manipulating someone impressionable, making them more detached and dissociative, making them "stronger". It's right there! You couldn't see it happening to Chara, not in a way most noticed. But here you have sweet, loveable Noelle. Aw, isn't she adorkable? And you gotta sit there and see the emotional and mental damage you're inflicting on her; manipulation, exploiting her trust in Kris, taking advantage of her tendencies. Toby's doing it again, and this time he's not taking the chance you won't piece it together. That's how I see it, at least. Oh, and uh, sorry Noelle. Seriously. *Not that people haven't. I've seen people say it's totally Kris' fault and we didn't do anything. I've also seen people sound like they're excusing it because "Noelle likes to be abused", because not only do they not understand the story, they don't understand people of her "persuasion"(the other one, not the gay one) either. (oh and another side note, you do actually get rewards for doing snowgrave. The Thorn Ring can be combined with a "Pure Crystal", an item we haven't gotten the chance to get yet, to create a "Twisted Blade". Well, who knows if you'll ever get the chance to unequip it from her, so it actually might be something you can only get from ABORTING a snowgrave route when you get the ring. I wonder if this is some kind of ploy, making us think "oh no what if we actually need it" only to pull back and go "I can't believe you did that so you could get a stupid sword. Congrats, at least Berdly didn't die, I guess.") (another another note: It's not Frisk's Level Of Violence, if you couldn't get that from what I was saying. It's Chara's. The stats are all theirs, whatever you named them is what the menu shows.)
I feel so bad for Chara and Noelle. Noelle is obvious and you went over everything in this comment, but whatever happened to Chara before the game was horrible enough for them to hate people and try to commit suicide. twice. Sad.
@@uboa8060 Yeah, it wasn't your average, every day misanthropy. It was: ADVANCED misanthropy. Is it really any wonder they act like that in that scene? You just confirmed everything they believed.
People that excuse their geno runs with things like "I didn't do it" or "She likes it" are really, really tiring. It's a damn videogame nobody's pointing a gun at ya m8, nobody really gives a sh!t about what you've done in the game *as long as you own up to it.* Really takes me back when the UT fandom was popular for spoiling let's players of the story of the game & constantly reminding them how to "play the game". Ahhh, good times...
@@thebookless3381 It's really funny, isn't it? They can't just pass it off as "just a game" or they wouldn't even care, but they're also willing to totally dodge responsibility. The same people who would probably say "yeah I ran over those pedestrians in GTA, what of it?", now refuse to admit they did anything as soon as the game actually calls real attention to it. The irony is, well it's palpable. As for the let's player situation, I've always had mixed feelings on it. I mean I get it, you want to make sure the LPer gets one of the real endings, right? Undertale isn't actually over until you get the True or Geno endings and you don't wanna A. Risk the LPer not finding out there's more, B. Make them replay a lot of the game verbatim/risk they won't. C. Risk they'll just got straight to Geno then because hey it's different. Like what are you really supposed to do, an LP that only does the neutral route would be a boring one indeed. I got into undertale like a year late so I wasn't there for it, I'm sure it was pretty bad, but I understand how it came about at least.
7:18 - No it's not, that's just a _fan term_ used to try and match up with the letters. But there are some rare lines during the fight that say what it _actually_ is... "KARMA". (Yes, it really is that simple.)
an amazing video once again serial! honestly, looking back at undertale and the recent deltarune ch2, you displayed the points amazingly in a short and sweet way! i expect nonetheless from you!
One yputuber once stumbled on accident. They killed monsters they came across but didn't grind. But they had trouble with toriel and went to get more EXP. And they realized.
8:44 actually I always explained the two attacks by how your soul is on the attack button, you press Z to attack, it misses, and to advance the dialogue you press Z again, which both advances the dialogue but also triggers another attack since your soul is still over the menu button
Chara: nice job player! Process to kill player,but it failed* Chara: oh, yes the 4-th wall... Deltarune: Noelle: why you using me as a nuke? Me: bc you are stroncc cannon
I had a friend who managed to avoid the marketing was an avid power grinder. Who at first wrote off most the genocide mechanics as anti grind mechanics ment to.prevent over leveling... he did figure it out but at that point he'd figure he may a well finish the route and try spearing Monsters after a reset.
Oh right shit my other comment is so long but I have to mention this so here's another instead: The song "d. ogg", that plays before the fight with Berdly in snowgrave, sounds incredibly similar to the first 6 seconds of "Merry CD" from the Omori OST, if you weren't already aware of this. I kinda hope Toby and Omocat are up to something... have you noticed the similarities between the two games, as well?
@@uboa8060 Yeah that's the one I'm talking about, it just seems suspicious he'd use a bit of the one he made for Omori. Maybe entirely coincidental because it's Christmas themed and so is Noelle... Or maybe not...
@@WeatherReportsHat Allow me to lay it down for you: Yeah, there are surface level similarities, such as Sunny, Aubrey, and Basil being similar in personality/archetype to Kris, Susie, and Ralsei. Kris also plays the piano while Sunny plays the violin. Small town, as well, a brother in college(Asriel also apparently used to carry Kris when they were tired, like Mari would do for Sunny). Kris and Sunny also both seem to like knives... and I'm a bit worried Kris might have turned their knife on themself at some point. Then there's some deeper aspects; Both games seem to deal with a group of friends who had a falling out due to a tragic incident involving the sister of one of the characters, a good friend who probably held their group together. I wouldn't be surprised if Az and Dess had a thing. Noelle has several lines talking about wanting things to go back to how they were. In addition, it also relates to Kris' family, their dad's out of the picture, likely to do with this same incident. I also think some of the themes may be similar. It's already setting itself up for some anti-escapism, first off. Undertale and Omori actually share a lot of themes, the ones less talked about, about morality/being or becoming a good person even if you've done something very wrong, about doing crazy and drastic things for the person you care most about, as well as hiding dark truths and needing to have the courage to admit them. I can't help but feel these themes will also be present in deltarune.
You mentioned that Undertale's genocide route is not one you're aware of anyone taking accidentally. That's another key difference between the two. It's well telegraphed by everything that happens early on as you go. When I played through Deltarune Chapter 2 the first time and talked to someone else about it afterwards, they mentioned Spamton as an "optional" fight, and I found that confusing. I didn't understand because he was the chapter's final boss as far as I knew, which is how I found out that the non-snowgrave route existed (so I played through it a second time to see that too).
@@somaanshverma7721 His body could be possessed by another entity. Just like how Chara could possess Frisk's body. What supports this is the fact that in the first chapter Kris does the weird body movements and behavior *before* he took out his soul. There was virtually no difference between before and after in that evening scene
The player has different save file than Kris (dark world first save point); Kris is canonically the loner/quiet kid (if you talk to a lot of people in the light world, they will remark how you are more talkative); Kris plays the piano yet you can’t (piano, something tells me that the piano would be significant in the endgame and the other post Will-Break routes) etc. Kris is not the player, they are a *3$;@/!;9*
9:51 Undertale actually made me feel more bad in Deltarune, because I felt there was no one else to blame but myself. Chara is a poor excuse because it actually takes your input name. Never do they say "I am Chara" (unless you specifically put that in) Deltarune made me feel less guilty since there was a fallback character. I can just blame all my merciless killings on the person that actually killed the darkners. Undertale makes me feel emotionally bad while Deltarune makes me feel mentally bad.
10:54 As someone who hasn't played undertale (yet) but finished Deltarune (including Snowgrave) recently, there's another reason for doing the Snowgrave route, for newcomers- Curiosity. Seeing what happens. How it changes the game.
The one second you played Megalovainia I thought my alarm was going off, I was late for school and this whole video was a dream, then the video resumed.
Snowgrave lets you become the Charles Manson of the story. Where Manson himself killed no one, he had his followers do so for him. Likewise, you can complete the route without killing anything (since all other defeated enemies run away), but you have Noelle do so, convincing her she is becoming "stronger", when in fact, she is more under your control.
Now that I’m thinking about it with the whole you are the soul and kris is the body thing that kinda removes the ability to put the blame on someone else since in that situation you would be doing what people think chara is doing
Same i have the feeling that snow grave route spamton is harder then the pacifist route I beat the pacifist route one on the second try but i didn't beat the snow grave one yet (I'm on my fifth try)
i might be the only person who feels worse during the undertale genocide, i think it's because it lasts longer, so it has more time to make me feel bad.
I always felt that chara is just the manifestation of the player's intentions (their will? soul?) basically it's they game reading you and making you in game. This is how you act, this is what you want, so this is way you get. I feel Deltarune is scott trying to really drive home *"Hey player! yeah you! YOU"RE the evil one! YOU did this"*
I find It funny where I realized Noelle is shy, sometimes helpless, less confident, and very shy to tell her feelings for her crush... And comparing it to Hinata-
@@fantasyshadows3207 Imagine if theirs the Infinite Tsukuyumi route where Naruto and Sasuke died that includes Sakura and Kakashi, and everybody is in a dream forever.
only snowgrave is labeled as fatal; if a program goes (Not Responding) - in other words, its freezed - you can often just wait a minute and itll start working again. why are we operating under the assumption theyre all dead (especially when it can easily be more fucked for them not to be)
I noticed that in Genocide, people do commit it themselves, but blame Chara because they're the only person to dump it on. But Snowgrave is forcing someone else (Noelle) to do it. And everyone realizes that it's our fault.
I feel like Deltarune's combat adds something to RPGs that has always frustrated me with turn-based ones: being able to control avoiding taking damage through skill. It allows what you can do in an action/real-time RPG without actually being one: DODGE!
Well, that's kind of the point of these different games. More traditional turn-based combat games reward strategic planning and managing your resources (health bar, mana, etc). In order for Undertale to work as a game, there had to be a way for the player to survive to the end with the lowest possible health cap, so dodging was really the only available mechanic they could have implemented.
@@SerialIntrovert I know. I am just saying, poorly, that I much prefer Deltarune's unconventional RPG combat over Undertale's unconventional RPG combat.
i don’t think that chara’s characterisation is a flaw in the no mercy run in undertale, depending on which route you do, you ultimately decide their fate, you see the slow corruption of their character, which is why frisk will move on their own without any input with the player, chara develops a slightly watered down version of the players mindset, they’re giving the player what they seemingly want, and berate them and the end of the route when they decide to not erase the world, as they are confused considering that’s what they thought your intentions were, and so they lash out, which is honestly understandable, so no i don’t think it’s a flaw, it’s more a flaw as to how the fanbase misinterpreted chara’s character horribly, to me the snowgrave route somewhat mirrors what the player does to chara, but the snowgrave route gives you a more first person perspective as to what the player was essentially doing to chara, but yeah hopefully that made sense lol
Chara on taking action/ being awake on the genocide route is a showing of their true evil character though. They only help on the genocide route because that's what they desire and it reflects their personality
@@ItsB1998 Not necessarily. We are in control of Frisk, but Chara gets stronger when we increase their LV. The higher one's LV, the less one cares about the consequences of killing. "The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others." Chara's backstory is about attacking humans in order to free monsterkind, not to exterminate every monster or destroy the world.
i think the whole "you made someone do this" idea is linked to the theory that kris is being controlled by the player and knows it. even if we didn't make kris do anything violent or weird in chapter 1, they're still being controlled with no real power over themselves. that must suck
Great video I just really hope Toby fox wasn't being literal when he said your "choices don't matter" as all this emotional buildup will just be rendered moot
UT's genocide is worse because you kill far more people. Ultimately, Noelle is just one more person you're causing to suffer, and she isn't enough to tip the balance just because she's a main character. The other characters were just important and likely had families of their own, even if they were less important to the game.
And I have no heart for these. Too horrible and hurtful. And I can't even kill Papyrus. Because, he's person from a lot people who comforted me as he says "People can change if you just try". He's person who care a lot to us after our God. Undyne once said in quotes in animo : "Look Papyrus didn't came to his meeting today. Say what you want about him. He's weird, he's naive, he's self absorbed. [But Papyrus has NEVER missed meeting.. And no matter what time you called him on the phone.. Night, day, afternoon, morning.. He ALWAYS answers within the two rings.] Now he's gone.. And his brother isn't around.." I'll pick the these sentences in this brackets. "But Papyrus has NEVER missed meeting.. And no matter what time you called him on the phone.. Night, day, afternoon, morning.. *He ALWAYS answers within the two rings.*" See ? He's care a lot to everyone, including to us. What kind of bullshit they gonna put after killing him ? *Why ? Why did they killed him ? Unforgivable.*
One thing we all have to remember about Undertale and Deltarune (no so much deltarune) is, Every bad thing that happens is the result of are actions because we could of done better.
I think one of the many things that made the Genocide route in UT so effective was just how *humane* the characters felt, and how the ambience around you started to get significantly twisted as you did these heinous actions. The music got brutally more depressing, and the NPCs that you don't have to battle are now fearing you and even hid away from you so you didn't kill them. The note of the Snowdin shopkeeper saying "Please don't hurt my family" was one very notable moment that started to make you feel how these are innocent *people* with actual lives that you're straight-up murdering. That's one of, if not the main reason why Snowgrave falls flat in its face, at least for me. On paper, the idea of using someone else as your vessel for your actions sounds even more heartbreaking and monstrous than just killing everyone yourself, and it should make you feel exceptionally guilty; but it really doesn't work due to how small and inconsequential everything in this world feels. Not only does the music not sound even half as dark and depressing as in UT's Genocide run, but the NPCs you kill are just meaningless obstacles on your way that you're getting rid of on what's essentially a low-stakes fantasy world. They might have as many quirks as they want, but don't feel nearly as humane; they don't feel like *people,* so essentially, the whole thing feels rather manipulative, and unearnedly so. And if the logic behind the game's universe really is "oh, your choices don't matter but others' choices do" then it only means you can easily pin the blame on Noelle for wanting to listen to you in the first place. Cause hey, it's not your choices, it's hers. At least in UT's Genocide, you had NOBODY to blame but YOURSELF for wanting to do this in the first place and the game knows it.
One very interesting reaction you can get from Noell during the last real-world scene after the Snow Grave route. If you equip one of her items of clothing (I don't remember what specifically it was) and you go through the interactions with her and her father, she will notice that you're wearing her item and that will be the reveal that everything she went through was real. I didn't even realize I was wearing it at the time, so it came at as a surprise to me.
Correction: a lot of comments have informed me that you DO actually gain HP during fights in Deltarune Chapter 2 as a reward for winning. Sorry, my mistake!
why did you put the dog death scene in the video... it could be anyon... why the dog?
hey i hate asriel
People still blame kris. People still refuse to achknowledge they are at fault.
@@skullzans aha yes i totally believe you sarcasm
@@skullzans just like how people blame chara in undertale
Toriel: mom goat
Asgore: dad goat
Asreil: son goat
Chara: scapegoat
Thx for the heart. Great video. Very well made
I would make a joke with Ralsei but I can’t think of anything clever.
@@everyonegetselfears1444 Poor Ralsei...No one is making jokes with him-
@@explosaonuclear because he is the joke, got em
Not even a creative joke tbh
in my opinion, the creepiest scene is the one you get if you take Noelle's watch and put it on Kris in the Snow grave route. i say that because it confirms to Noelle that none of what happened was a dream. she has to live with the guilt of knowing she killed everyone in the cyber world when she could have stopped at any time, knowing that she could have ended everything at any point in time and saved so many lives but simply didn't, and knowing that she killed berdly when she didn't have to
I think Berdly's death was like, a needed balance in the universe y'know? Sort of like a cosmical error that needed to be fixed asap...
@@thebookless3381 but the world is collapsing without Burghley
not only that, but she never actually said anything about the 'dream' out loud; she realized that we can see her thoughts
Not just that, but that her friend Kris stole from her, too.
I prefer the normal one because "because it wasnt a dream" is much more straight forward than "in your dream"
Flowey: Begging for his life.
Subtitles: Yeah that seems like laughter!
@ILGVARSBOSS lol
LOL
@ILGVARSBOSS you called?
Xd
@@dpslaughter1898 oh no, they’re evil tein lol
I think the true purpose of Chara is to bring out something even worse by BEING that scapegoat.
Just the fact that so many people blamed their sins onto this dead child feels so much worse.
many people on the undertale community defend chara if you want to i´ll link it
Chara's motives after killing the humans is left up to interpretation because we don't know if their intentions were to use their brother to kill more innocent people. Granted the player does more than that in Genocide, but one could argue Chara could be evil in their intention to harm others if their willingness was to abuse Asriel's power. I mean I always found it strange how Chara only reawakens from hatred in the player's heart. Chara's reincarnation is heavily blurred in pacifist and neutral leaving only speculation that they are the narrator.
@@joaquinjovane4226 Yes, but many more see them as a scapegoat.
@@Daniel328DT i do think chara got reincarnated in pacifist and neutral, just not in the same way. We got those flashbacks in waterfall and during the asriel fight, which could only come from chara, (Same goes for the game over message, which is asgore talking to a sick chara, using the name we chose - chara's name - not frisk, meaning it's comming, again, from chara) for example. Chara is definetly there, just not as strong.
I think the difference is LV and EXP. Determination awakened them, but LV and EXP gave them more and more power the more and more those numbers increased. It makes sense with that much power to be more prominent in the real world.
@don'tfeel I wouldn't say Chara isn't a good person, they're not the best as Asriel says, but Chara isn't bad *or* completely good, In my personal opinion it's better to stick neutral. I do agree with you however that on genocide they think their purpose is power.
I believe that the whole point of Chara's speech at the end was to prevent the player from using them as a scapegoat. Regardless of its ultimate effectiveness, the dialogue seemingly intended to hold the player responsible.
" _Your_ power awakened me from death. My human soul... my determination... they were not mine, but _your's_ "
"Why was I brought back to life? With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power."
There's also the dialogue you get from doing a second genocide route in which they become disgusted after realizing you did the genocide route for fun,I still don't get why people think they're responsible for it
@@justvibingowo736 Yeah, the way Chara almost resentfully asks the player what they're looking for is the biggest giveaway. After waking up confused, they were molded by our actions thinking the purpose of their reincarnation was power, then when we reset everything back to zero, they can't understand why we'd do such a thing.
I think the problem is that people don’t pay too close attention every bit of dialogue, but the shocking, crazy things that follow. Chara makes a creepy jump scare and takes your soul to restore the world. It makes them seem more like the devil than a child. It doesn’t help that they didn’t have a clear personality in the neutral/Pacifist route, so people thought this is always their personality.
Or maybe people are just stupid idk
@@waluigiisthebest2802 i mean you don't need to know every piece of dialogue,the one you get before they ask for your soul to restore the world is enough evidence that they're not responsible for it.i have no issues with evil chara,but blaming them for the genocide route kinda goes against the whole point of the route for me,also toby has somehow become a better writer so people won't get this confusion with kris in the weird route,hopefully
Hell yeah buddy! You get it! I'll use the same quote I used for some knucklehead trying to tell me Chara manipulated us:
"It was you led this world to it's destruction. But you cannot accept it. You think you are above consequences."
I'd like to point out the point of Sans' fight, since it's quite ingenious.
Toby intended for a first timer to die repeatedly, usually even over 100 times, just to turn you into the monster that you are portraying.
In those first attempts, you'd probably feel immense anger and frustration.
After some progress, you may feel some clarity or progression.
But if you've truly struggled, by the end, you'll have no emotions anymore. You'll finally watch sans die. You won't feel any guilt about killing him or any other monster anymore. You truly do get shifted into the blood-lusting monster you had been playing as all this time.
Pretty much this precisely. Beating Sans is literally one of those things in games where you just kind of have to "want it more than the opponent" - I remember when I went through it I was pretty much already fully aware of what the Genocide Run looks like, and when I got to Sans (although MUCH more with Undyne) it really was a matter of just being determined enough to Do That Thing
Not exactly for me. Sure there were points of frustration, but there was one ever growing emotion that increased with each attempt. That emotion?
Determination
@@AkaiAzul I just gave up trying to beat sans
@@Squid_Salad I gave up trying to fight Undyne XD. I did it because I know that if I can’t beat her, I definitely won’t be able to beat Sans.
@@Litchy51 ikr, at least undyne doesn't have the stupid poison which annihilates you
I've always felt like portraying Chara as some irredeemable, genocidal, bloodthirsty, human who's responsible for the genocide route, if you ever did the genocide route, was blaming them for your own actions. They're the ones who started the genocide route, not Chara, Chara did not force you to choose that path. Whether or not they're innocent, you're still the one who chose to do it.
Same with Kris, it is heavily implied that the Player is a separate entity from Kris from Noelle's like talking about a separate voice, you're the one who chooses to manipulate Noelle into killing people, not Kris.
exactly, like kris would have no reason to do that stuff considering their connection with noelle; they're practically childhood friends
People say chara does the genocide route but if you do it twice they litterally tell you to do something else
**shoots toriel*
Player: "why whold chara do this"
Not sure i agree with you in absolving her. Chara tells us how many monsters remain in an area, so she's an active participant.
@@LucasDarkGiygas I said that they aren't exactly completely innocent, but they are not the one killing everyone.
They also tell you to take a different route if you do genocide twice.
The Snowgrave route also puts into perspective what we're doing to Kris. We practically turned Noelle into our second puppet, to the point she starts listening to OUR commands, not Kris'.
What happens to Noelle is basically what Chara went through in the genocide route, except it's much more direct here.
It's more "direct" because we've never done with Chara what we do with Noelle.
And Noelle doesn't stop listening to Kris' commands. It's just that only we give commands here. Noelle thought all this time that Kris was saying it, even if she notes at the end that the voice is not similar.
@@justauser6078 When OP says "direct," they more mean "obvious." We don't SEE the manipulation of Chara because they're not a character that's physically present in the game (aside from the Geno Route ending), but the parallels between Noelle and Chara are eerily similar. For example, there's Noelle's, "If Kris tells me to do it... I can do things I could never do before. I'm getting stronger." compared to Chara's, "With your guidance, I realized the purpose of my reincarnation. Power. Together, we eradicated the enemy and became strong." No one questions whether or not Noelle is being manipulated because we SEE it happening, right in front of us, in plain dialogue. It's a bit more up to the player to figure out with Chara, though. At least that's my thoughts on it
@@sensiblegh0st86 And if we don't do anything with Chara, we don't manipulate Chara. Chara sees our actions and comes to his conclusions HIMSELF. Without our intrusion. We didn't promote any ideas to him. At the same time, the idea of "stronger" is not Noelle's idea. She was told by one of the darkners that it was a normal thing to do.
* "C'mon, angel! You can't get stronger without good equipment!
Noelle:
* Stronger...? R-right, I guess that's how it works here...
You can kill even more on a neutral path, and Chara doesn't start behaving like that. On the path of genocide, unlike Noelle, Chara was not told anything and was not asked for anything. Chara just decided he'd join in on this. Noelle didn't do it on her own, and each of her actions required a push from us in the form of [dialog options] or [choosing an ACTion for her during the battle]. This is just ONE of the many things listed that distinguishes them.
And Noelle perceives what is happening more as something unreal. She was also told by one of the darkners that she "can't get stronger without good equipment," and only after that Noelle began to think that Kris requires her to be stronger, wants her to be stronger. Because he made her get this ring, which will make her stronger, and does other things with her, making her stronger. But as soon as she received direct confirmation from Susie that it was a dream, she started talking not so much about "becoming stronger" as about a dream. Again, this was also mentioned in the links.
For Chara, this is definitely not a dream, and a HUMAN is killing those who cared about him. Who would even start helping a serial killer kill their family for no reason other than "the killer is doing it, in that case I will do it too"? No child will start killing if they JUST see a serial killer killing their family. Even if it's 20 kills, even more. I have not seen a single case when, because of this, normal children without mental problems initially would start killing together with those who harmed their loved ones, and didn't experience emotional breakdowns and locked themselves in. And instead of helping a serial killer, calling them "partner" and saying "We'll be together forever, won't we?" they will hate and despise this killer.
At the same time, when Noelle realizes that they are about to fight Berdly, she tells him to run away:
* W-wait, Berdly, stop!
* Run away!
After which the battle begins. If you don't kill Berdly (option "I'm protecting her from you!"), Noelle will feel relieved:
* (Th... That's right, what was I thinking just now?)
* (That's right... Kris is my friend, right?)
What Chara says?
* In my way - MK encounter.
* Looks like free EXP - MK CHECK.
Our actions gave Chara the idea with which he started acting. Our actions with Noelle were to pressure her, manipulate her and literally be abusive with her. She's AFRAID of us. Chara considers us a partner and becomes the one who dominates you in the end. Chara is also the one in the shop who says "Take it" about an item that you can steal. You click on this item, and Chara says it. Chara leads you down the path of genocide as soon as you start it. Chara speaks disparagingly and cruelly about monsters, calls the child a "free EXP", tells you to continue. You're leading Noelle, pushing her. Noelle justifies it by saying it's good. Chara directly calls himself a demon on the second path of genocide and says that your actions are sins. See the difference? That's not even all that distinguishes them.
Noelle at the end:
Susie:
* ... uhh, you're in a good mood.
* Did you, uh, have a good dream?
Noelle:
* It was a nightmare.
Susie:
* Oh.
Noelle:
* I'm... I'm just happy I woke up.
Susie:
* ...
Noelle:
* The... end was nice, through.
Susie:
* What happened? (Interested expression with a smile)
Noelle:
* HAHA, w-well, umm--
* HAHA HEY, Berdly time to get up and go!
I see it as a reference to what happened between her and Susie.
She woke up in a good mood because, again, having a good time with Susie. And she considers what she was doing before that a nightmare.
At the same time, Chara after killing Toriel in the Demo:
* That was fun. Let's finish the job.
@@justauser6078 Firstly, it's uh. They/them for Chara. If we're establishing that they're their own person separate from the player, then we need to use the pronouns that everyone (including loved ones and adopted family) use for them. Secondly, we're not DIRECTLY controlling Noelle's actions, she's choosing to listen. I'm not saying that she's not being manipulated but Susie has shown us that characters can ignore commands given by the player (Kris can't, though). And Chara, even in the geno route, doesn't kill anyone on their own until near the very end of the game, at which point the kill counter is up to nearly fifty people. I'm just saying, if a child who died a violent death was suddenly brought back to life as a ghost and forced to trail after someone who was killing people relentlessly, I'm not sure I would expect them to stay completely sane. I don't think I'D stay completely sane. This is not to excuse their actions, but to explain them. If Chara really wanted to kill everyone they could have tried to persuade the player/Frisk to do so from the beginning, because as we see from the text upon looking at the mirror in Asgore's home in the geno route, Chara CAN talk outside of red text, and it's implied in the game that they're the narrator (although this is not ENTIRELY confirmed)
I kinda confused Why everyone comparing is chara to noelle shouldn't it be Frisk
I feel another thing that makes the Snowgrave Route stand out from Genocide Route is the fact you'd actively have to seek out a guide to even do this route. It's much more hidden and requires more than just killing every killable enemy you come across. It requires certain steps to even just trigger this route.
It's like those obscure fake secrets we heard about in primary school.
I would say genocide requires quite a lot of effort. Otherwise you just get a no mercy route
@@gianttacogod yeah, but more in how hard it is than obscure
@@gianttacogodaren’t genocide and no mercy the same thing?
@@Stop_fucking_changing_thenameno, no mercy is like the “leaderless” ending. to me, no mercy is just killing every encounter you come across, as opposes to geno which is seeking out encounters.
though many look at no mercy = geno
Snowgrave is playing on the idea that enemies run away when you beat them, but noelle can actually kill them.
Kris, Susie and Ralsei have close in on enemies and swing their weapons, but Noelle can freeze them solid, stopping them from running.
I like how people conveniently forget that Chara at the end of genocide credits you the player with giving them a new murderous outlook on life.
This is something I always found odd about people saying Deltarune's Snowgrave route is worse than Undertale's genocide since you're manipulating someone."
But doesn't that already kind of happen in Undertale with Chara?
Granted, we don't really know Chara's motives completely, they were definitely a strange and troublesome kid.
But in the Neutral or Pacifist route they show sorrow towards monsters if you believe in the Chara Narrator theory.
That's a theory but it's canon you controlled noelle
I wouldn't say your manipulating Chara, it would be more along the lines of influencing Charas preexisting resentment and amplifying it through your own actions.
Something I find interesting is the idea that the three main routes you choose will determine who is ultimately in control of the body at the very end, a neutral route has the player as the one in control, at the end of the Genocide Route Chara is the one who takes control because you fostered their hatred until it surpassed your own, and in a pacifist route it's Frisk who's in control hence why you are physically incapable of landing attacks against the Amalgamates or insulting them, because you fed into Frisks gentle nature so much that it overrides your control, it also explains why Frisks determination becomes so great that not even Asriel, the single most powerful character in the game can kill Frisk, if the player or Chara had that kind of determination Sans wouldn't even be a challenge.
In the end we don't know what happens to Chara in a pacifist run (assuming you didn't do a genocide run) but if Chara really is the Narrator I think you can leave them at peace.
No, Chara uses the player, like the Batter in OFF.
Imagine if Noelle said SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL?
Chara not being a villain removes everything that makes her unique.
If Chara was just another character she'd have plenty of merch.
@@cathulhu5470 no one says that Chara isn't complicit, but Chara is only ever in control at the very end, Chara is only marginally more guilty of a genocide run than Spamton is in a snowgrave route (and even that's debatable)
The player is the one in control up until the very end, you can stop a genocide run at any point up until you kill Flowey and Asgore and Chara won't stop you from stopping, heck if you do a pacifist run right after you kill Sans Chara will never mention a genocide route again unless you completely saw a genocide route through.
Saying that Chara is the one in control is a flat out lie.
I basically agree with everything in this video, but a very big mistake you made was that you said Kris was the one forcing Noelle to commit these horrible deeds. The difference between player and protagonist is made pretty clear in deltarune and it's important to stress that it wasn't Kris who made Noelle do this, it was you, the player. I'm sure you're aware of this since you explicitly stated it, but I still think the choice of wording is important.
He's a Chara defender. Go figure.
@@cathulhu5470 a
a what
@@jamly3465 Some people believe that in all Toby games, the Player is a COMPLETELY different entity than the characters they play AS. This is more-or-less outright confirmed to be the case for Deltarune. This leads to the belief that, through doing a geno route as Frisk, who is followed around and somewhat helped by Chara, that Chara is actually innocent...ish and that the player has been manipulating them to, in turn, manipulate frisk. I myself believe that this is the case, since the alternative does not. make. fucking. sense. considering the message that the game tries to teach you. "Your actions matter. They have consequences for better, or worse."
Others still cling on to the idea that Chara is some demonic child or something and is single-handedly responsible for the route... despite the fact that the route only triggers when you, the player, decide to kill all their friends in the ruins and even their own adoptive mother.
In Deltarune its reinstated several times that Kris is different from the player
But in Undertale it did feel like Frisk was supposed to be the player, especially considering the way Frisk can canonically save and reset just like we can irl
@@exyzt9877 Personally I believe the chara WE see is the chara corrupted by determination
In undertale OUR choices matter in deltarune OTHERS choices matter we can’t do anything but we can manipulate others into doing our deeds or “routes”
I feel like Snowgrave route is what Toby tried to represent Undertale's Genocide route but Chara being made to be an excuse instead. so he did it so you are making someone else killing everyone, but having a character still going against the person who did all of the frozen monster.
In Snowgrave, were forcing Kris to turn his childhood friend into a murder, killing even their own friend. (Berdly.) Kris is forced to watch, not able to do anything as we procced for fun.
Undertale you kill them all, forceing a dead child to watch you kill every last line of them. They looked to you for guidance, and you showed them it's kill or be killed. They help you, wanting to get it over and done with already, then after becoming determined enough punish you for your actions.
So, in a way, Kris is experiencing what Chara was.
I feel like it actually makes sense that Chara become more violent and controlling in the Genocide route due to the amount of LOVE you have. In a neutral run, sans says “The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others.” and this would also be applying to Chara throughout the whole game.
8:22
It's ironic that back then people made “AUs” of countless genocide routes and whether it was Chara's fault or Chara completely controls the body. But in the Undertale canon, after doing a second genocide route in a row, Chara says they no longer understands the player, suggests doing another route and accuses the player saying "You. You are wracked with a perverted sentimentality". So imagine Chara actually watching player doing countless genocide routes, lmao
Ch: " and i'm the sick one!... "
To me, it seems to me that Toby Fox looked at the assumptions people made about Chara in Undertale (assumptions I believe are false. Chara is clearly far from a good person, but one of the things they make explicitly clear during the game is that she HATES Humans, and loves Monsters, so I highly doubt she'd be directly aiding in Genocide to kill said monsters, simply becoming far more pessimistic and present due to the player actions), and decided to get rid of that scapegoat by making it so in Deltarune, the Player fills the role people thought that Character filled. In Deltarune, YOU are the person who gains a larger presence as the story progresses. In Deltarune, YOU are the one who actively goads another character (Noelle in this case) into killing everyone until that's all they want to do. In Deltarune, YOU are the person controlling different people, Noelle and Kris, and stripping them of their free will as you turn them into killing machines. In Deltarune, YOU are the only person who can be blamed for the actions that occur in the game. You can't blame Kris because it's explicitly shown that they have no control during the events of the game, you can't blame Noelle because the Player actively goads them into doing everything which makes there actions a direct result of your own actions
This is what I believe Toby Fox did, he took all the assumptions others made about Chara within Undertale and made it impossible to have that same scapegoat in Deltarune, by making YOU into that monster
@EL AUTENTICO What do you mean no manipulating? It's directly shown we are manipulating Noelle by using her timidness against her. She's the kind of person who can't really say no to what anyone says, she's the kind of person to do what everybody says because she's too afraid of ehat happens if she says no and not independent enough to do so. If it wasn't for the Player, Noelle never would've frozen a single enemy, if it wasn't for the Player, she never would've gotten those Rings, if it wasn't for the player, Noelle would have never been traumatized to the point where she refused to let her own dad play a video game for her in fear of losing control of the situation again. Hell, the manipulation feels somewhat supernatural even given how effective it is, as if somehow Noelle is slowly being guided to being connected to The Soul in the same way Kris is
Chara's nonbinary, otherwise good rant.
This is something I agree with. However Chara had no reason to get involved in the first place and it was their choice to follow us since we aren't aware that Chara silently joined our murder spree until they directly spoke to us at the end of genocide run. They are also enthusiastic about killing monsters which is not something Noelle and Kris felt when we made them kill darkners and Berdly. In Undertale Chara and us are both faulty for committing genocide whereas we are the only ones at fault in the weird run.
I find it annoying when they celebrates about Undyne and Sans getting successfully killed.
But THEY FEEL bad when they kill Papyrus and Toriel. Probably that's just my opinion and it's completely understandable because they are the most difficult boss in the game.
its not about feeling bad, its about FINALLY doing what you set out to do, even if it comes at a great cost. its nice to know that you beat one of the hardest bosses (according to some websites, but i dont know if i should trust it, as they put the ender dragon in the top 30)
YOU FEEL BAD?! I feel powerful
@@MossPathway Congratulations you're a psychopath
@@doodlehobbo8697 They feel powerful because you just beat either Undyne or Sans, both of which are highly considered the hardest bosses in the game by far, so when you finally beat them after dozens of attempts, you feel satisfied. Also hard to take the sans fight seriously anymore because it’s the funni skeleton. People feel bad for papyrus because he thought that you could change your ways and be a good person, so he was left defenceless, Toriel was also defenceless because she had no clue you would be so powerful.
@@Tokzic67 And the reason why they fight in the first place because their trying to stop you from continuing the killing spree. Even though Sans knows you can't be permanently killed his still fighting you just to give you a warning of what's gonna happens next. Wether their strong or weak at the end of the day the players kill them all out of curiosity.
deltarune's snowgrave route hit harder than the final duet
Could Dec be noels something
It's only just chapter 2....
*it's only just chapter 2*
hit harder than hero after the truth probably
nah
Dess as Mari
1:37 the comparison of Chara's jump scare form and Noelle's face when she casts Snowgrave is very valid.
Their eyes are just that creepy. It fits the routes well.
The Snowgrave route can also make a chain reaction to the later chapters. After a Snowgrave route, Noelle literally has more health and attack damage than Susie, has the only fatal spell in the game, and she also has a heal prayer spell. If she manages to find out that the dark world isn't actually a dream and seek revenge to the team, she can one shot everyone in the team, hell, she can even kill one member of the team.
The sad thing is, in reality Chara and Noelle are in the same situation with the player, its just that as Chara is the narrator its easy to write off what Chara says or doesn't say, their initial stats (which like are like Noelle's) and miss the small character ques, like giving back control when Flowey forms his old face and begs Chara not to kill him. This is actually your last chance to abort the genocide run and it is you that has to force Chara to proceed. Chara even outright states that it was YOU that taught her to be that way.
Chara couldn't be any different from Noelle. She actually considered herself a partner and enjoyed what she was doing and was much more malicious. Don't even compare them
@@ItsB1998
Chara is only more malicious after a high LV, something Nolle never reaches. Both characters are tricked into thinking killing makes them stronger. Thats even the reason Chara gives for thinking you and her were partners. Why do you think she is so disgusted when you come back and then reveal you want the world back....just so you can kill them all again? Though considering your hostility, (I'll continue to compare them btw) it seems you do not know that Chara is the narrator on all routes and think she is nothing more than evil demon. corrupting Frisk, despite the dialogue showing that isn't the case.
@@TheSwordsman100 Noelle was actually being told to attack and kill people though. Chara wasn't, and never once showed any problem with doing it.
Chara being the narrator on the other routes isn't confirmed. She only has confirmed speaking moments on the genocide route, along with a visible presence.
@@ItsB1998
Oh on the contrariety, she goes dead silent when you battle against Torial, roots for Genocide!Undyne and after even after being fully corrupted and taking control of Frisk to "help" she instantly and suddenly gives back control when Asriel begs for his life and it is you that has to supply that final push. (fun fact this is your final chance to do a reset before losing the chance to do a true pacfist run)
Its not jossed either, even after all this time, the same logic can apply to almost everything regarding Gaster, Toby does not do one note major characters, has way too much evidence for it just to be a theory, the other theory that Chara is responsible for the Genocide route goes against the moral of said route and finally someone had to supply the memory needed to SAVE Asriel as it wasn't us nor Frisk.
@@TheSwordsman100
As I understand it, when we press the z button on the neutral path to close the dialog, and Flowey kills Asgore after that, is it also we're pushing? No. This is the mechanics of the game. In Sans' case, you press the FIGHT button, and that triggers the cut scene. In the case of Asgore AND Flowey, you press Z to CLOSE THE DIALOG or see the next dialog, and the characters start attacking by their choice, this is the trigger for the cut scene. And here we DON'T make a choice, we don't say anything to the characters. Because our choice is to press the FIGHT button. You tell Noelle to "Proceed" when you press the Proceed" button (who would know, right?), not when you just randomly press the z button.
And Chara doesn't become silent in the battle with Toriel. He is silent only when you already press the MERCY button (on any path), and she says her dialogues. Not when you attack. If you try to talk to Toriel, Chara will say:
* Not worth talking to.
And after killing her in a Demo Chara says:
* That was fun. Let's finish the job.
In the case of Undyne: You can feel respect for your opponents, you know? And not because you want them to win. Because they have earned respect.
In Undyne's case at the genocide, Chara could feel respect and admiration for her as a strong opponent who even overcame death itself to fight. And that's why Chara calls Undyne what ALL the monsters called her - the heroine. Because that's who Undyne is. That's not Chara's personal opinion. This is the monster opinion that Chara projects.
**Gerson:**
* I'm not a hero. But I know there's someone out there. Someone who'll never give up trying to do the right thing, no matter what. There's no prophecy or legend 'bout anyone like that. It's just something I know is true.
* **That someone like that will strike you down.**
**Undyne:**
* I, Undyne... **Will strike you down!**
You see? It's happening. Chara sees this, and when he used to talk about Gerson as a hero to fight (there's a "Fight" option in the conversation with him), he now sees the TRUE hero - the one Gerson was talking about. Chara calls a spade a spade. Here is only respect for Undyne as a powerful monster who has defeated even death, who is determined and has the same goal that Chara once had in life - to collect human souls and make humanity suffer in order to take back the surface. Chara is sympathetic to this goal. But that doesn't stop Chara from continuing down that path with the Player, killing Undyne.
Because he has a different plan now ("This isn't just about monsters anymore, is it? (in our case, "humans"). If you get past me, you'll... you'll destroy them all, won't you? Monsters... Humans... Everyone..."). Chara has enough respect for Undyne to call her what she really is - a hero. She's not a hero because Chara likes her so much. This is a statement of fact.
And he doesn't really participate in the battle with her, because he's just mostly watching to see if his partner can kill a determined monster. He doesn't give ***all*** his strength. A monster that refused to die, even though she should have died with a single hit, just as everyone else died from Chara's help to the Player. But Chara takes a little step back and... want to see what happens. He doesn't support ANYONE here. He doesn't say a word of support to Undyne (only states the facts), and he doesn't tell you to die. He doesn't talking cruelly about her, either. And Chara admires her strength, because Chara has always admired strong creatures.
Very interesting video, but I can think of another reason someone might do the Snowgrave Route: They were too scared to do Undertale’s Genocide Route because of the consequences and the story being ruined for them, but because Deltarune makes a point of your choices not mattering, they now feel like they have nothing to hold them back from the Genocide Run Experience. They attempt the run, ready to make Frozen Fields of the Dark’s Hopes and Dreams. Of course, then it turns out that just freezing everyone isn’t enough; you actually have to abuse Noelle outside of battles as well, then they end up stopping because they couldn’t bring themselves to take it that far… yeah.
Might make me a little messed up for doing this but I basically did it for the reason you said, Not wanting to spend a stupid amount of time to do a alternative route and also funni pipis room
Just finished snowgrave.
Also heres a thing.
Why would you Play Genocide route in DeltaRune?
1.Funny Harder Mattaton Salesman
2.You want to see dialogs,how have they chenged.
3.You've seen some comics and want to see what is in game
you can fight Spamton NEO in the normal route too
@@roomfullofpigeons not 1v1 tho. That is hard.
@@THG_thehumangod I thought the normal route version was harder.
@@gianttacogod Don't mind me. I did the spam big shot cheat and the damage I took went through the roof, so I thought Spamton did huge damage.
Reminder: Chara is supposed to be the name of your save file. Likely your own name. Chara is supposed to be you. It’s a shame that Chara became their own character ruining the whole point of that ending. Imagine if there was no canon name for Chara. No character to take the blame. In discussion you would have no choice but to refer to that thing at the end as ‘the player’, ‘you’, or better yet, ‘me’.
clearly the snowgrave route is in response to so many people using chara as a scapegoat in undertale, toby's made it more obvious this time that the player is the one responsible for their actions
There's still the possibility of Kris or even Chara just doing it themselves in DR
@@ItsB1998 where?
@@IronycheinPain "Where" isn't the proper response to what I said.
@@ItsB1998 Oh I didn't realize it jsut ended there.
My full question was gonna be where the possibilities lie for both Chara and Kris
I can understand the implication on the former, but the latter implicatiom is a stretch since it is outright confirmed Kris has no willing aay in any of this
@@IronycheinPain It's not confirmed that Kris's doesn't have any say in what's happening though, that was my point. At most Snowgrave just shows Kris has another entity like Chara controlling them
My thoughts on Deltarune Chapter 2 Snowgrave is this.
You the player knows your actions don't matter , and no matter how much you attack YOU can't kill the monsters as they will always run away , but upon chapter 2 a thought probably comes in. If you can't kill the monsters yourself...what if someone else did it for you. The other character's aren't bound by these rules , they could kill other monsters if they wanted it to but don't, however You've manipulated Noelle just enough to make her use Ice Shock on enemies and Snowgrave on her closest friend. You found a tool this chapter to use to gain more control over Kris and the games rules they have set on you.
Deltarune decisions were made the moment you said yes to the screen that said :
“You accpet everything that will happen from now own”.
You actually gain more HP for making monsters flee and for killing them too. You do gain XP but it's kinda invisible to the eye
Yeah it is only like a +2 hp for each kill
You still gain that if you beat the enemies up so it still has nothing new to offer
Just as flowey said... "At least we're better than those sickos who stand around and watch it happen... Those pathetic people that want to see it but are too weak to do it themselves. I bet someone like that is watching right now, aren't they...?"
I'm broke man
I think the deltarune fandom learned from the undertale that we are responsible for our actions. Not kris, not chara, not frisk, us we are responsible for our actions
Chara is still responsible for following us in the first place after watching us murder what they cared about rather than object to our actions. That still doesn't make us any less faulty since we are the ones who pressed the fight button and continue fulfilling the genocide run requirements.
2015 player: Chara kill them all!
2021 player: Kris ask Noelle to kill them all!
I love how I genuenly felt bad about doing the Genocide Route in Undertale so I quit once I got into Waterfall but I literally speedrun Snowgrave Route for fun (I haven't submitted anything as I'm not good at speedrunning it but still)
Also in Snowgrave you do get more hp from freezing the monsters as by the end Frisk and Noelle end up at around 160 hp while at the beinning there at like 100 or something
Please stop abusing my daughter Noelle for your speedruns, thanks.
you're right we need to get FASTER
Snowgrave/wierd/genocide route -(whatevee you guys call it)- is just *that* good, I personally put it in A-S tier for now...
The characters also have their attack and magic stats increased by 1 after every 10 battles where an enemy was defeated violently (aside from Noelle who gets the increase after every 4 battles).
As a side-note, if you freeze one enemy in a single battle but not the others you can keep battling them and raise your attack and magic stats (and Noelle’s HP) as high as you want.
In deltarune your health increases too. Watch carefully after killing enemy on your healthbar
The thing is, i never saw Chara as the culprit. I always thought your actions shaped them. If you kill, you corrupt Chara. In a Pacifist run, you bring them some peace as they aid you, aka allowing Frisk to read the Monster language, in theory.
In Undertale, you corrupted a spirit looking for a way out. In Deltarune, you broke an innocent girl down and made her slaughter people. Regardless, YOU are the monster, not Frisk or Kris.
@charlieee994 at first, I didn’t. But the more I thought about it over the years, the more I realized. In other games, you can just say “I’m the hero so my actions are justified”. But in Undertale and Deltarune, you don’t get such a luxury. Toby Fox made such immaculately detailed games and stories that I enjoy learning more and more about them.
Regardless of what Chara's true nature is in the genocide ending, they straight up tell you that your actions were responsible for bringing them back and shaping what they think is the true meaning of their existence.
@@OmniversalInsect I agree.
I don't know about other people, but the reason why the Snowgrave Route bothers me more than Undertale's Genocide Route is because of how intrusive it is for Noelle. You read her thoughts, gaslight her into committing murder, and even say some creepy ex spouse stuff. You even go as far as to threaten her with death. This is the nicest character in the game, and you twist her into something unrecognizable. She's always wanted to stand up for herself, but you're teaching her to do it in all the wrong ways. You're not teaching her about confidence, but teaching her that using your strength as a weapon to force others into giving you what you want is an means to an end. That's not just toxic, that's flat out abuse. The Genocide Route does everything within its power to tell you what you're doing is wrong and it's not until the very end of it that there's a point of no return. Frisk is also a blank slate avatar who is just a sit in for the Player. But in Snowgrave, the insidious nature of emotional abuse that's being inflicted on Noelle starts to rear its ugly head within her mentality. Not to mention, Kris is witnessing all of this and is unable to do anything about it. So there are two kids who are being traumatized and one is now in critical condition if not dead from your actions. To conclude, Snowgrave just feels more......personal than Genocide. Genocide is more of a grand thing, that affects everyone. Snowgrave feels like it was meant to torment Noelle specifically, and that's so messed up.
One reason why nobody stumbles upon Undertale’s genocide route is because the player has to actively go for it. If a player kills every encountered monster while heading directly to the exit, that player will get a neutral ending. The player has to walk around, waiting for an encounter, and encounters happen less frequently as monsters are killed and other monsters avoid the murderous player. In a geno route, a player decides to walk around and kill every encounter until the ‘but nobody came’ message shows up. The kill counters that appear after the Ruins further emphasis that on a geno route, it isn’t about collecting EXP or money or items, it’s about murdering monsters.
Remember kids, don't use Chara as a scapegoat. Take responsibility for your kills. Keep up the good work, grind that exp. Get that LoVE. Get. More. POWER
Flowey Undertale is that you?
Uh ooooooh, talking about Chara, eh? That's gonna be a wall of text from me! Please do read! Prepare yourself:
I get what you mean about the flaw in the genocide route's messaging to be honest. I find it a bit difficult to call it a flaw, per say, but that's probably due entirely to my interpretation of Chara. While I love that Toby made them pretty ambiguous, I have a hard time seeing my and other elite members of the Chara Defense Force's interpretations as anything but the right ones. For me the interpretations are not "is Chara evil or not?", but "how not evil is Chara?", with my personal view being "only kinda not evil" because flawed characters are great. Anything outside of that, to me, may as well be factually wrong.
If anything, I'd say the flaw is that Chara and the genocide route are so easy MISinterpretable. Rather than anything within the game itself ruining the messaging, I see the flaw as writing in a way that that allows people to ruin the messaging for themselves. I feel this was worth it, of course, to keep Chara ambiguous and interesting. Deltarune has reignited my passion for analyzing my favorite undertale character, after all!
That said, I think snowgrave is definitely an improvement in this area. It's so much harder to get the wrong idea here*, and if anything it kinda proves us pro-Chara's right; The same thing is basically happening here that happened in undertale, it's just a different aspect of it is being focused on. For one, it's much more grounded in a way. GR is about feeling bad for killing tons of people, something most people aren't gonna ever experience. Abuse, on the other hand, is something many people may experience or even perpetrate. Then, of course, you can't hide from the fact you're manipulating someone impressionable, making them more detached and dissociative, making them "stronger". It's right there! You couldn't see it happening to Chara, not in a way most noticed. But here you have sweet, loveable Noelle. Aw, isn't she adorkable? And you gotta sit there and see the emotional and mental damage you're inflicting on her; manipulation, exploiting her trust in Kris, taking advantage of her tendencies. Toby's doing it again, and this time he's not taking the chance you won't piece it together. That's how I see it, at least. Oh, and uh, sorry Noelle. Seriously.
*Not that people haven't. I've seen people say it's totally Kris' fault and we didn't do anything. I've also seen people sound like they're excusing it because "Noelle likes to be abused", because not only do they not understand the story, they don't understand people of her "persuasion"(the other one, not the gay one) either.
(oh and another side note, you do actually get rewards for doing snowgrave. The Thorn Ring can be combined with a "Pure Crystal", an item we haven't gotten the chance to get yet, to create a "Twisted Blade". Well, who knows if you'll ever get the chance to unequip it from her, so it actually might be something you can only get from ABORTING a snowgrave route when you get the ring. I wonder if this is some kind of ploy, making us think "oh no what if we actually need it" only to pull back and go "I can't believe you did that so you could get a stupid sword. Congrats, at least Berdly didn't die, I guess.")
(another another note: It's not Frisk's Level Of Violence, if you couldn't get that from what I was saying. It's Chara's. The stats are all theirs, whatever you named them is what the menu shows.)
> I've also seen people sound like they're excusing it because "Noelle likes to be abused"
*ROYAL GUARD OPEN UP*
I feel so bad for Chara and Noelle. Noelle is obvious and you went over everything in this comment, but whatever happened to Chara before the game was horrible enough for them to hate people and try to commit suicide. twice. Sad.
@@uboa8060 Yeah, it wasn't your average, every day misanthropy. It was: ADVANCED misanthropy. Is it really any wonder they act like that in that scene? You just confirmed everything they believed.
People that excuse their geno runs with things like "I didn't do it" or "She likes it" are really, really tiring. It's a damn videogame nobody's pointing a gun at ya m8, nobody really gives a sh!t about what you've done in the game *as long as you own up to it.*
Really takes me back when the UT fandom was popular for spoiling let's players of the story of the game & constantly reminding them how to "play the game". Ahhh, good times...
@@thebookless3381 It's really funny, isn't it? They can't just pass it off as "just a game" or they wouldn't even care, but they're also willing to totally dodge responsibility. The same people who would probably say "yeah I ran over those pedestrians in GTA, what of it?", now refuse to admit they did anything as soon as the game actually calls real attention to it. The irony is, well it's palpable.
As for the let's player situation, I've always had mixed feelings on it. I mean I get it, you want to make sure the LPer gets one of the real endings, right? Undertale isn't actually over until you get the True or Geno endings and you don't wanna A. Risk the LPer not finding out there's more, B. Make them replay a lot of the game verbatim/risk they won't. C. Risk they'll just got straight to Geno then because hey it's different.
Like what are you really supposed to do, an LP that only does the neutral route would be a boring one indeed. I got into undertale like a year late so I wasn't there for it, I'm sure it was pretty bad, but I understand how it came about at least.
If snowgrave, (just chapter 2) is so horrifying, imagine how messed up the future genocide routes will get
It's not Kris ordering her around, she even says it wasn't Kris' voice, and that Kris looked uncomfortable afterwards.
10:40 INCORRECT!!!! You actually do get health
7:18 - No it's not, that's just a _fan term_ used to try and match up with the letters.
But there are some rare lines during the fight that say what it _actually_ is... "KARMA".
(Yes, it really is that simple.)
an amazing video once again serial! honestly, looking back at undertale and the recent deltarune ch2, you displayed the points amazingly in a short and sweet way! i expect nonetheless from you!
YES! someone finally acknowledges the fact that the genicode ISN"t Chara's fault!
Correct , it’s the players fault
@@Delivery_Boy_RoyChara is still faulty for following our path and destroying the world even if we choose not to erase the world though.
One yputuber once stumbled on accident. They killed monsters they came across but didn't grind. But they had trouble with toriel and went to get more EXP. And they realized.
8:44 actually I always explained the two attacks by how your soul is on the attack button, you press Z to attack, it misses, and to advance the dialogue you press Z again, which both advances the dialogue but also triggers another attack since your soul is still over the menu button
Chara: nice job player!
Process to kill player,but it failed*
Chara: oh, yes the 4-th wall...
Deltarune:
Noelle: why you using me as a nuke?
Me: bc you are stroncc cannon
Chara is the master of "why did you blame me for your sins?" while the undertale community is like: Yes.
nah the truth is they are quite defended a lot
I had a friend who managed to avoid the marketing was an avid power grinder. Who at first wrote off most the genocide mechanics as anti grind mechanics ment to.prevent over leveling... he did figure it out but at that point he'd figure he may a well finish the route and try spearing Monsters after a reset.
Chara even calls you out saying it was us who killed everyone
Oh right shit my other comment is so long but I have to mention this so here's another instead: The song "d. ogg", that plays before the fight with Berdly in snowgrave, sounds incredibly similar to the first 6 seconds of "Merry CD" from the Omori OST, if you weren't already aware of this.
I kinda hope Toby and Omocat are up to something... have you noticed the similarities between the two games, as well?
Didn't Toby do some music for Omori?
@@uboa8060 Yeah that's the one I'm talking about, it just seems suspicious he'd use a bit of the one he made for Omori. Maybe entirely coincidental because it's Christmas themed and so is Noelle...
Or maybe not...
I wouldn't say Omori and Deltarune are similar games beyond a surface level comparison, but that's a neat easter egg!
@@WeatherReportsHat Allow me to lay it down for you:
Yeah, there are surface level similarities, such as Sunny, Aubrey, and Basil being similar in personality/archetype to Kris, Susie, and Ralsei. Kris also plays the piano while Sunny plays the violin. Small town, as well, a brother in college(Asriel also apparently used to carry Kris when they were tired, like Mari would do for Sunny). Kris and Sunny also both seem to like knives... and I'm a bit worried Kris might have turned their knife on themself at some point.
Then there's some deeper aspects; Both games seem to deal with a group of friends who had a falling out due to a tragic incident involving the sister of one of the characters, a good friend who probably held their group together. I wouldn't be surprised if Az and Dess had a thing. Noelle has several lines talking about wanting things to go back to how they were. In addition, it also relates to Kris' family, their dad's out of the picture, likely to do with this same incident.
I also think some of the themes may be similar. It's already setting itself up for some anti-escapism, first off. Undertale and Omori actually share a lot of themes, the ones less talked about, about morality/being or becoming a good person even if you've done something very wrong, about doing crazy and drastic things for the person you care most about, as well as hiding dark truths and needing to have the courage to admit them. I can't help but feel these themes will also be present in deltarune.
@@ElectricBarrier That's actually a good argument! Guess they had more in common than I thought.
You mentioned that Undertale's genocide route is not one you're aware of anyone taking accidentally. That's another key difference between the two. It's well telegraphed by everything that happens early on as you go. When I played through Deltarune Chapter 2 the first time and talked to someone else about it afterwards, they mentioned Spamton as an "optional" fight, and I found that confusing. I didn't understand because he was the chapter's final boss as far as I knew, which is how I found out that the non-snowgrave route existed (so I played through it a second time to see that too).
Berdly never wakes up in the snowgrave route confirming that Noel killed him in both worlds.
so for people wanting to do snowgrave. Beat spamton in a pacifest route first it makes the fight so much easier
Wish i listened. Abused [BIG SHOT] instead
I beat Spamton in snowgrave first, then did normal route Spamton NEO.
@@gingergingey8271 WOAH what a throwback, I forgot how into Deltarune I was when chapter 2 came out
16:06 Ooooh well done. That’s actually good story that you’re actions do matter and your choices have effect or trauma on people. Very done.
“if anything goes wrong blame the kid in the yellow and green striped shirt” -the undertale/deltarune fanbases
Well in deltarune it is canon that the player and the Kris two different enities
It's not canon because it's not confirmed.
@@ItsB1998 I guess ur right....but why does Kris pull out his heart in the first and second game?
@@somaanshverma7721 His body could be possessed by another entity. Just like how Chara could possess Frisk's body.
What supports this is the fact that in the first chapter Kris does the weird body movements and behavior *before* he took out his soul. There was virtually no difference between before and after in that evening scene
The player has different save file than Kris (dark world first save point); Kris is canonically the loner/quiet kid (if you talk to a lot of people in the light world, they will remark how you are more talkative); Kris plays the piano yet you can’t (piano, something tells me that the piano would be significant in the endgame and the other post Will-Break routes) etc.
Kris is not the player, they are a *3$;@/!;9*
@@ItsB1998 that entity could be us
Bold of you to assume I feel guilty.
9:51
Undertale actually made me feel more bad in Deltarune, because I felt there was no one else to blame but myself. Chara is a poor excuse because it actually takes your input name. Never do they say "I am Chara" (unless you specifically put that in)
Deltarune made me feel less guilty since there was a fallback character. I can just blame all my merciless killings on the person that actually killed the darkners.
Undertale makes me feel emotionally bad while Deltarune makes me feel mentally bad.
10:55
Honestly the only reason i did the snowgrave route is because a friend gave me a dare to do it lmaoo
I would do it for fun
@@thebookless3381 psychopath
@@chickenegg3035 it's only a game ;)
10:54
As someone who hasn't played undertale (yet) but finished Deltarune (including Snowgrave) recently, there's another reason for doing the Snowgrave route, for newcomers-
Curiosity. Seeing what happens. How it changes the game.
another thing ive noticed with deltarune is that *YOUR* choices don't matter. it doesn't say anything about what you make other characters choose.
The second-hand sin is worth double points in Deltarune.
It's not just Kris forcing Noelle, it's Player(us) forcing Kris to force Noelle.
The one second you played Megalovainia I thought my alarm was going off, I was late for school and this whole video was a dream, then the video resumed.
Snowgrave lets you become the Charles Manson of the story. Where Manson himself killed no one, he had his followers do so for him. Likewise, you can complete the route without killing anything (since all other defeated enemies run away), but you have Noelle do so, convincing her she is becoming "stronger", when in fact, she is more under your control.
Now that I’m thinking about it with the whole you are the soul and kris is the body thing that kinda removes the ability to put the blame on someone else since in that situation you would be doing what people think chara is doing
I almost beat the genocide route in deltarune but spamtom neo was too hard
failure
THAT [Puppet] ON [Silly Strings]!? C'MON, I BEAT HIM IN [10 Tries or Less]! WITH THIS POWER, I MAY FINALLY BE ABLE TO KILL THAT [Clown Around Town]!
@@EP1CxEMAN08 that clown is easier than that puppet duh. i -beat- pacified that clown in 3 tries.
Same i have the feeling that snow grave route spamton is harder then the pacifist route I beat the pacifist route one on the second try but i didn't beat the snow grave one yet (I'm on my fifth try)
@@pastel7327 Snowgrave and Weird Route is literally the same thing
i might be the only person who feels worse during the undertale genocide, i think it's because it lasts longer, so it has more time to make me feel bad.
I always felt that chara is just the manifestation of the player's intentions (their will? soul?) basically it's they game reading you and making you in game. This is how you act, this is what you want, so this is way you get.
I feel Deltarune is scott trying to really drive home *"Hey player! yeah you! YOU"RE the evil one! YOU did this"*
I find It funny where I realized Noelle is shy, sometimes helpless, less confident, and very shy to tell her feelings for her crush...
And comparing it to Hinata-
Gaslight Naruto route
@@fantasyshadows3207 Nah it's difficult for that nuckle head to able to get manipulated.
@@fantasyshadows3207 Imagine if theirs the Infinite Tsukuyumi route where Naruto and Sasuke died that includes Sakura and Kakashi, and everybody is in a dream forever.
There's no better puppet than the one that thinks you're a friend m8...
You don't attack twice in one turn in the sans fight
You attack during his turn, and then attack on your own turn
**Shoots toriel*
Player: "why whold chara do this"
only snowgrave is labeled as fatal; if a program goes (Not Responding) - in other words, its freezed - you can often just wait a minute and itll start working again. why are we operating under the assumption theyre all dead (especially when it can easily be more fucked for them not to be)
Wow that battle intro detail is amazing i didn't notice it!
To me, to intentionally push others into sin is the greatest of all evil acts and the deepest pits of hell await them.
I noticed that in Genocide, people do commit it themselves, but blame Chara because they're the only person to dump it on. But Snowgrave is forcing someone else (Noelle) to do it. And everyone realizes that it's our fault.
I feel like Deltarune's combat adds something to RPGs that has always frustrated me with turn-based ones: being able to control avoiding taking damage through skill. It allows what you can do in an action/real-time RPG without actually being one: DODGE!
Well, that's kind of the point of these different games. More traditional turn-based combat games reward strategic planning and managing your resources (health bar, mana, etc). In order for Undertale to work as a game, there had to be a way for the player to survive to the end with the lowest possible health cap, so dodging was really the only available mechanic they could have implemented.
@@SerialIntrovert I know. I am just saying, poorly, that I much prefer Deltarune's unconventional RPG combat over Undertale's unconventional RPG combat.
This seems to be a great video! I’m pretty excited to watch it. What was the opening music however?
Opening music was Scarlet Forest from Deltarune Chapter 1. It's pretty underrated!
@@SerialIntrovert thanks!!
Just so you know, the person reading things is Chara, basically the narrator and in the genocide route, you molded the narrator into what it is now.
Chara decided to help us, we just killed, they decided to help us, no manipulation, just two psycho's.
i don’t think that chara’s characterisation is a flaw in the no mercy run in undertale, depending on which route you do, you ultimately decide their fate, you see the slow corruption of their character, which is why frisk will move on their own without any input with the player, chara develops a slightly watered down version of the players mindset, they’re giving the player what they seemingly want, and berate them and the end of the route when they decide to not erase the world, as they are confused considering that’s what they thought your intentions were, and so they lash out, which is honestly understandable, so no i don’t think it’s a flaw, it’s more a flaw as to how the fanbase misinterpreted chara’s character horribly, to me the snowgrave route somewhat mirrors what the player does to chara, but the snowgrave route gives you a more first person perspective as to what the player was essentially doing to chara, but yeah hopefully that made sense lol
Chara on taking action/ being awake on the genocide route is a showing of their true evil character though. They only help on the genocide route because that's what they desire and it reflects their personality
@@ItsB1998 Not necessarily. We are in control of Frisk, but Chara gets stronger when we increase their LV. The higher one's LV, the less one cares about the consequences of killing.
"The more you kill, the easier it becomes to distance yourself. The more you distance yourself, the less you will hurt. The more easily you can bring yourself to hurt others."
Chara's backstory is about attacking humans in order to free monsterkind, not to exterminate every monster or destroy the world.
i think the whole "you made someone do this" idea is linked to the theory that kris is being controlled by the player and knows it. even if we didn't make kris do anything violent or weird in chapter 1, they're still being controlled with no real power over themselves. that must suck
I wish "snowgrave route" hadn't caught on, it kind of spoils it. It's called the Weird route internally.
I was not expecting this video to pop up
Great video I just really hope Toby fox wasn't being literal when he said your "choices don't matter" as all this emotional buildup will just be rendered moot
4:20
"Please don't step on the leaves"
*aggressively steps on leaves*
you are seriously talented. ive been watching some of your videos and i love how you write and the topics you talk about.
I also think the the mouse puzzle room scene is another creepy scene in Deltarune where you are threatening to push Noelle into the lighting barrier.
Sans: DO I WANNA BE THE FUNNY BONE MAN? NO! I DON'T! I'D RATHER BE CHUGGIN' A BOTTLE OF KATCHUP AT GRILLBY'S
UT's genocide is worse because you kill far more people. Ultimately, Noelle is just one more person you're causing to suffer, and she isn't enough to tip the balance just because she's a main character. The other characters were just important and likely had families of their own, even if they were less important to the game.
And this is why I don't want to do snow grave. I am to much of a nice person.
And I have no heart for these. Too horrible and hurtful. And I can't even kill Papyrus. Because, he's person from a lot people who comforted me as he says "People can change if you just try". He's person who care a lot to us after our God.
Undyne once said in quotes in animo :
"Look Papyrus didn't came to his meeting today. Say what you want about him. He's weird, he's naive, he's self absorbed. [But Papyrus has NEVER missed meeting.. And no matter what time you called him on the phone.. Night, day, afternoon, morning.. He ALWAYS answers within the two rings.] Now he's gone.. And his brother isn't around.."
I'll pick the these sentences in this brackets.
"But Papyrus has NEVER missed meeting.. And no matter what time you called him on the phone.. Night, day, afternoon, morning.. *He ALWAYS answers within the two rings.*"
See ? He's care a lot to everyone, including to us. What kind of bullshit they gonna put after killing him ?
*Why ? Why did they killed him ? Unforgivable.*
I wouldn’t be surprised if every other chapter after 2 the weird route just get worse and worse until it becomes a straight up horror game
One thing we all have to remember about Undertale and Deltarune (no so much deltarune) is,
Every bad thing that happens is the result of are actions because we could of done better.
Man this concept is awesome!
Good video, be sure to get sponsored soon
I think one of the many things that made the Genocide route in UT so effective was just how *humane* the characters felt, and how the ambience around you started to get significantly twisted as you did these heinous actions. The music got brutally more depressing, and the NPCs that you don't have to battle are now fearing you and even hid away from you so you didn't kill them. The note of the Snowdin shopkeeper saying "Please don't hurt my family" was one very notable moment that started to make you feel how these are innocent *people* with actual lives that you're straight-up murdering.
That's one of, if not the main reason why Snowgrave falls flat in its face, at least for me. On paper, the idea of using someone else as your vessel for your actions sounds even more heartbreaking and monstrous than just killing everyone yourself, and it should make you feel exceptionally guilty; but it really doesn't work due to how small and inconsequential everything in this world feels. Not only does the music not sound even half as dark and depressing as in UT's Genocide run, but the NPCs you kill are just meaningless obstacles on your way that you're getting rid of on what's essentially a low-stakes fantasy world. They might have as many quirks as they want, but don't feel nearly as humane; they don't feel like *people,* so essentially, the whole thing feels rather manipulative, and unearnedly so.
And if the logic behind the game's universe really is "oh, your choices don't matter but others' choices do" then it only means you can easily pin the blame on Noelle for wanting to listen to you in the first place. Cause hey, it's not your choices, it's hers. At least in UT's Genocide, you had NOBODY to blame but YOURSELF for wanting to do this in the first place and the game knows it.
One very interesting reaction you can get from Noell during the last real-world scene after the Snow Grave route. If you equip one of her items of clothing (I don't remember what specifically it was) and you go through the interactions with her and her father, she will notice that you're wearing her item and that will be the reveal that everything she went through was real. I didn't even realize I was wearing it at the time, so it came at as a surprise to me.