I quote these slightly differently now. Its either a half day or a full day rate, plus waste - don't care if it only takes 2 hours. I also ALWAYS double the amount of waste I think I need to remove because double is usually closer to the actual amount. If the customer doesn't like it then they can find somebody else. Think the fix my sh👁thole became a thing during lockdown - certainly seems to be more calls for that now. Great video about the glamorous reality of the industry😉
Sounds like a good plan so you're not caught out on jobs, and waste always is more than you think👍 definitely seems to be a lot of empty properties that have been left at the moment. Thanks for watching 👌
Great points Nathan. The access thing is a deal breaker for me these days. I had to gently tell a prospective customer recently that while I 'could' carry 6 x 6 fence panels through her garage, up 2 steps, through the kitchen and out into the back garden, while 'being careful the indoor cats don't escape' ... I really didn't want to. Bye..
Watch out for any customer in rented accommodation ! I was once asked to do a job for an out going tenant who was in danger of losing his deposit because he had let the garden get so bad (actually worse than the one in this vid). I thought this could be a dodgy one so asked for money up front or it’s a no go . Anyway he was happy with that and I did the job . He made me cups of tea and we chatted and got quite matey. So that was that, job done , About six months later I got a surprise call from him .he was in another place a good way away , normally out of my range , but he was in the same situation again and wanted me to go down there for a afternoon . So off I went and got stuck in . “That’s looking great!” He says I’ll just go down the bank and get your money and be back by the time you finish . Off he went and I never saw the bugger again !!!
That's crap for you but lesson learned I guess, have had similar things and have a video on taking deposits for such reasons. Trouble is he was fine the first time I guess 🙄
Very competitive advice mate, totally agree with your approach from viewing to carrying the work out, again have to agree, it's hard on kit and not a job to be taken on lightly, it's very much a case of having 2 of everything, strimmers / hedge cutters / ect, as damage or break downs are always close and guaranteed, not to be underestimate. Tidy work mate 👍
Cheers 👍 definitely use your older kit for these types of jobs or like you say have back up machines, things can go wrong doing these jobs so going in cheap is not worth while. Thanks for watching 👌
I think I've said this, before. But I absolutely love these type of jobs. Give me one (or two) every day Monday to Friday. And three or four every weekend and I'd be a happy boy. I set myself up from the start with the right kit and much prefer them to mower pushing. But for me, they don't come along that often. So mower pushing is normally my bread and butter.
Great advice as ever, I quite enjoy a few of these jobs every so often. Mixes things up! Access and steep gardens are my two main reasons to decline work.
Great video and advice. Going through the process of starting my own garden maintenance business so will be watching out for you videos. Great help From a New subscriber. 👍🤞
Thanks for your reply. I will be bending your ear in the coming weeks. What’s your thoughts on battery to petrol tools? Perhaps done a video in this already!
@@rodhayward7683 battery for hedge trims and stimmers and petrol for mowers and blowers but just starting out a good petrol multi tool may be your best bet
Jungles are my main target and most enjoyable. The transformation I find most satisfying :-) Need to find some lawn mowing for bread and butter too obvs but jungles are fun lol and the difference you make to the customer from what it was to what it is when you leave is the biggest change. I did a garden recently, the guy said usually when it gets out of control he ends up spending all day on it with a mains powered strimmer and using tons of (probably 1.3mm) line. I said I'll be bringing a 52cc machine with 2.4 or 3 mm line, he said do you think you can do it in no more than 5 hours? I did it in 2 :-) From the photos the job looked like a lot more work, when I did the site visit I was disappointed to see it wasn't as big or as bad as it looked from the photos. Like a plonker I gave an hourly price, but hey I'm new and need money for new tools and he was pretty damn happy with the bill lol :-)
They do give some satisfaction when done although can be tough on the tools and body. Wouldn't want to get caught hourly on the ones you fly through tho😬 thanks for watching 👍
Compared to work I do for free with a local project, it was a doddle. I'm still a bit soft when it comes to pricing, but when you don't have much work you just got to take jobs to get the ball rolling. One day I'll be busy enough to toughen up and say no etc! No I'm not doing tenner an hour, I'm not that soft lol
A great video Nathan. Your so right about leaving your van. Some areas are a no no for me. Wise words. All the best. Oh, I am far to cheap. Thanks for the advice.👍🏻
Glad I've seen this video, quoting jobs like this is my weakpoint as I always feel like I'm cutting myself short... I like the idea of adding an extra hour plus some 👍🏾 In my area it's hard to compete with the "handyman in a van" who would do this work for peanuts
Very informative video Nathan, I seem to get a lot of these myself, and been thinking why do I always get the shitty jobs. Now I know and as suspected, I'm too f@#%$£g cheap! But my problem in the south east is they are all tight wads, and don't think gardeners are worth any more than £10 per hour. I think we have a lot of benefit guys earning on the side here, and no way am I working my arse off for that!!!
Cheers 👍 £10 per hour seems ridiculous really for this type of work and the kit you need to do it. Don't sell yourself cheap, in time the right customers will come to you👌
The cost of Two men a truck loads of commercial grade machinery plus waste disposal on a battle field JOB,gotta get the message across to thease customers we are worth every penny.but we can't trip over pounds to get pennies. 👍
The first job I ever did was similar to this, didn't have any tools apart from shears and spades etc. Quoted from a video and charged £30 for something which ended up taking over 20 man hours... I'll only do that once!
One of my first jobs was clearing a jungle around the edge of some horse paddocks ,i thought it was around 4 feet from hedge but more like 12, killed two strimmer one overheated the other head and guard got destroyed by barbed wire and rock burnt over a gallon of fuel, think my £80 quote was a bit low lol, no wonder he bit my hand off to do it.
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd definitely mate, I discovered the oregon mulching blade after that and quite like those kind of jobs now if you price it right. Seems alot of skinflints in Cornwall especially the one's with horses, I think they can be a money pit
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd FYI If anyone needs some Bramble Resistant Gloves, Just got me some Screwfix Site Leather Specialist handling gloves, Large £3.99 and they work a treat and in Red to match my Eyes :)
Love mine👍use mine in the rain and they're alright to use, occasionally when it's belting down the HLA65 stops but I hit the motor end with the blower and it goes again. Who wants to be out when it's belting down tho right? Thanks for watching 👌
Im a classical under pricer...😢.... 😂..... Underestimating all over the place and trying to help people out... then watch them go on holiday number 2 of the year so far..
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd ah from Leeds us and we can’t find a big chipper anywhere we have a little one but just no good it’s to chip some laurauls about 25 of them 😩
🤴it was a shit hole to start with but not after 👍 That garden was pretty much my Chinese takeaway. Also on Saturday a guy pulled up on a job in lymm and asked our boss if we'd come to conway to manage properties in the area. And he was willing to pay travel
You still doing that Chinese job?😬😅 Sometimes people can't get anyone to do these type of jobs .. we've done loads while the lawns have been on their summer hols🤣
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd it's a quick £20 plus I'm borrowing his mini digger for a few days. Also on those types of jobs take plenty of before and after photos. To cover yourself in case the estate agent starts saying you might have damaged the property
i Nathan i run a gardening business also i was just wandering what was your quote for this? as i probably would of said £200 just to see if im on the mark. Cheers :)
Cheers for watching 👌 you're bang on with the £200 although no waste had to come away on this one. This was ongoing work for an agent so would have been higher price wise if not for them
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd makes me feel more hopeful for the WAY harder clearance I just quoted 250 for to get accepted. 200 square metres of 5 / 6 foot high brambles. No waste away.
Very competent, perceptive advice: I'm guessing you found school easy but you were too independent and disagreeable, as in not tolerating nonsense from anyone, to take the academic route. Do you offer say an hours training service to people on basic maintenance of their garden? You do this as a profession, so I can imagine people would be prepared to pay quite a bit for this, given that you're giving them valuable knowledge you've gained over the years.
Thanks 👍 I was lucky and found school work easy, the system and people not so much. It was the mid 90s when they were pushing everyone to go to university and vocational work was for those that wouldn't get to uni. After summer break and going back to my second A level year my new geology teacher asked us what we had been doing during summer. I told him working with my father gardening and he dismissed it straight away, that will get you nowhere, you need ambition and should have been studying to get on in life. I was young and quite shy but did ask him if he had been studying so he could move on from just being a teacher so maybe he could become a university lecturer 😅 The following week he asked me to read in assembly knowing I'd find it difficult, we didn't get on the rest of the year unfortunately. He may have been right as I've never been ambitious but happy enough. Someone who I admire so much, my brother, did the opposite and went on to PhD then a high flying career. We often look at each others career and get slightly jealous. I don't offer training but this UA-cam thing was slightly for that reason....and maybe for that geology teacher. Cheers 👍
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd. Ho one of them was it! Been in this business for about 30 years now, and it still amazes me how much work some people expect you to do, in so little time, for such little money! They employ you for two reasons, they either can do it themselves, or can't be bothered! They forget that we have many cost, to enable us to do the job in the first place!
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd there's only so much u can do with that growth. It's 10x better than what it was. There's alot of work in it so my price would be on the higher side. If u have to do it every month then the price would be lower cause Ur staying on top of it.but if it's a one off job the price would be up. Don't forget ur time and work is valuable ✅
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd Speaking of SHITHOLES I had a right job today... Strimming and clearing a overgrown brook. Had my wellies and waterproofs on, i could have literally rung out my underwear! Luckily though the mulching blade worked wonders 👍🏻 absolutely worth every penny like you say.
Good video though, I have always struggled with quotes personally but I'm trying to move away from hourly rate as it's not working out for me like it used to... Quite a lot of trial and error involved still after all these years.
I quote these slightly differently now. Its either a half day or a full day rate, plus waste - don't care if it only takes 2 hours. I also ALWAYS double the amount of waste I think I need to remove because double is usually closer to the actual amount. If the customer doesn't like it then they can find somebody else. Think the fix my sh👁thole became a thing during lockdown - certainly seems to be more calls for that now. Great video about the glamorous reality of the industry😉
Sounds like a good plan so you're not caught out on jobs, and waste always is more than you think👍 definitely seems to be a lot of empty properties that have been left at the moment. Thanks for watching 👌
Great points Nathan. The access thing is a deal breaker for me these days. I had to gently tell a prospective customer recently that while I 'could' carry 6 x 6 fence panels through her garage, up 2 steps, through the kitchen and out into the back garden, while 'being careful the indoor cats don't escape' ... I really didn't want to. Bye..
The good old house cats😬 you're right tho sometimes the access is a job killer👍
I love these type of jobs they really can be satisfying seeing the results. very informative video. keep em comming
Cheers mate👍 nice to see even the worse gardens looking a bit better
Watch out for any customer in rented accommodation ! I was once asked to do a job for an out going tenant who was in danger of losing his deposit because he had let the garden get so bad (actually worse than the one in this vid). I thought this could be a dodgy one so asked for money up front or it’s a no go . Anyway he was happy with that and I did the job . He made me cups of tea and we chatted and got quite matey. So that was that, job done , About six months later I got a surprise call from him .he was in another place a good way away , normally out of my range , but he was in the same situation again and wanted me to go down there for a afternoon . So off I went and got stuck in . “That’s looking great!” He says I’ll just go down the bank and get your money and be back by the time you finish . Off he went and I never saw the bugger again !!!
That's crap for you but lesson learned I guess, have had similar things and have a video on taking deposits for such reasons. Trouble is he was fine the first time I guess 🙄
I like the window cover idea 💡 thanks mate.
No probs, hope it helps. In these jobs I'm much less worried about windows 👍👍
Me too
Very competitive advice mate, totally agree with your approach from viewing to carrying the work out, again have to agree, it's hard on kit and not a job to be taken on lightly, it's very much a case of having 2 of everything, strimmers / hedge cutters / ect, as damage or break downs are always close and guaranteed, not to be underestimate.
Tidy work mate
👍
Cheers 👍 definitely use your older kit for these types of jobs or like you say have back up machines, things can go wrong doing these jobs so going in cheap is not worth while. Thanks for watching 👌
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd most definitely, old kit goes in first 👌
I think I've said this, before. But I absolutely love these type of jobs. Give me one (or two) every day Monday to Friday. And three or four every weekend and I'd be a happy boy. I set myself up from the start with the right kit and much prefer them to mower pushing. But for me, they don't come along that often. So mower pushing is normally my bread and butter.
With the right kit these are ok but definitely harder on the body 😬loads of these jobs lately my way. Thanks for watching 👍
Some solid advice here mate especially about the gutt feelings, I've learned the hard way to never go against your gut 👌
Cheers and yes always go with the gut👌
Great advice as ever, I quite enjoy a few of these jobs every so often. Mixes things up!
Access and steep gardens are my two main reasons to decline work.
Cheers 👍 yea now and then these jobs can be good, just gotta pick the right ones😅 those steep gardens are all over the place my way unfortunately
Great video and advice. Going through the process of starting my own garden maintenance business so will be watching out for you videos. Great help From a New subscriber. 👍🤞
Thanks 👍 good luck with the business, let me know if want any advice... happy to help if I can. Cheers 👌
Thanks for your reply. I will be bending your ear in the coming weeks. What’s your thoughts on battery to petrol tools? Perhaps done a video in this already!
@@rodhayward7683 battery for hedge trims and stimmers and petrol for mowers and blowers but just starting out a good petrol multi tool may be your best bet
Great advice Nathan 👍 there is always an abundance of bramble bushes on those jobs. 🙄
Cheers 👍 they do like to grow everywhere and be in the way🙄 thanks for watching 👌
Thanks Nathan that was very helpful, keep up the great work cheers
Cheers 👍 hope it was some help... anything else just chuck me a message
Jungles are my main target and most enjoyable. The transformation I find most satisfying :-) Need to find some lawn mowing for bread and butter too obvs but jungles are fun lol and the difference you make to the customer from what it was to what it is when you leave is the biggest change. I did a garden recently, the guy said usually when it gets out of control he ends up spending all day on it with a mains powered strimmer and using tons of (probably 1.3mm) line. I said I'll be bringing a 52cc machine with 2.4 or 3 mm line, he said do you think you can do it in no more than 5 hours? I did it in 2 :-) From the photos the job looked like a lot more work, when I did the site visit I was disappointed to see it wasn't as big or as bad as it looked from the photos. Like a plonker I gave an hourly price, but hey I'm new and need money for new tools and he was pretty damn happy with the bill lol :-)
They do give some satisfaction when done although can be tough on the tools and body. Wouldn't want to get caught hourly on the ones you fly through tho😬 thanks for watching 👍
Compared to work I do for free with a local project, it was a doddle. I'm still a bit soft when it comes to pricing, but when you don't have much work you just got to take jobs to get the ball rolling. One day I'll be busy enough to toughen up and say no etc! No I'm not doing tenner an hour, I'm not that soft lol
A great video Nathan. Your so right about leaving your van. Some areas are a no no for me. Wise words.
All the best.
Oh, I am far to cheap. Thanks for the advice.👍🏻
Cheers 👍 gotta watch those tools😅Keep putting those prices up til they say no😎😂
All hail the king 👑 Fair play man, great job done and a great video as well🇮🇪
😂 cheers 👍 thanks for watching
Thanks
Thanks for watching 👍
Great video Nathan as always 👍 I’m starting up my own business next year and find your advice invaluable, informative and above all entertaining 😂
Thanks, glad some of it can be of some help. Cheers 👍
nice about what id do on the first job if a couple of regular mows after that usauly gets tamer
Doesn't take too long sometimes 👍
Good job 👍
Cheers 👍 thanks for watching
Wah wah nice 👍 friends
Cheers 👍
Nice Job Helpful video Thanks again
Cheers 👍 job was a bit rough but advice stays the same. Thanks for watching 👌
Glad I've seen this video, quoting jobs like this is my weakpoint as I always feel like I'm cutting myself short... I like the idea of adding an extra hour plus some 👍🏾
In my area it's hard to compete with the "handyman in a van" who would do this work for peanuts
Cheers 👍 it can be tricky but you'll end up getting the work in the long run if you stick to the right price and do the work efficiently
There will always be someone that's willing to do this job for £50 including waste removal... Good luck to them...!!!
Very informative video Nathan, I seem to get a lot of these myself, and been thinking why do I always get the shitty jobs. Now I know and as suspected, I'm too f@#%$£g cheap! But my problem in the south east is they are all tight wads, and don't think gardeners are worth any more than £10 per hour. I think we have a lot of benefit guys earning on the side here, and no way am I working my arse off for that!!!
Cheers 👍 £10 per hour seems ridiculous really for this type of work and the kit you need to do it. Don't sell yourself cheap, in time the right customers will come to you👌
You are right there , I’m in the South East and there’s loads of tight wads here in my local area.
The cost of Two men a truck loads of commercial grade machinery plus waste disposal on a battle field JOB,gotta get the message across to thease customers we are worth every penny.but we can't trip over pounds to get pennies. 👍
Definitely 👌I walk away from anything where they expect it done for nothing as it's impossible
The first job I ever did was similar to this, didn't have any tools apart from shears and spades etc. Quoted from a video and charged £30 for something which ended up taking over 20 man hours... I'll only do that once!
😬that was a hard lesson for sure but as you say you'll never do it again. Thanks for watching 👌
One of my first jobs was clearing a jungle around the edge of some horse paddocks ,i thought it was around 4 feet from hedge but more like 12, killed two strimmer one overheated the other head and guard got destroyed by barbed wire and rock burnt over a gallon of fuel, think my £80 quote was a bit low lol, no wonder he bit my hand off to do it.
If they jump at a price you know it's wrong 😬bet you were glad it was over😅 cheers
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd definitely mate, I discovered the oregon mulching blade after that and quite like those kind of jobs now if you price it right. Seems alot of skinflints in Cornwall especially the one's with horses, I think they can be a money pit
Great advice, I would like to add be prepared to come across a bee or wasp nest. Not fun, believe me 😳
Cheers 👍 that's a deal breaker for me, swarmed on a few times 😬 definitely something to be aware of
Yep! I got caught out with a wasp nest in an old compost bin and got stung around 10 times and off work the next day, so lost a days work!
Nathan can you recommend some Decent Gloves for Bramble removing, Getting tired of my Fingers getting thorns in :(
I use wells Lamont leather ones, welding gloves can be good for brambles too. You'll never dodge all those thorns tho😬😅
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd FYI If anyone needs some Bramble Resistant Gloves, Just got me some Screwfix Site Leather Specialist handling gloves, Large £3.99 and they work a treat and in Red to match my Eyes :)
Nathan what do you stick on the windows to hold up covers . I’ve got a thing for smashing windows((
ua-cam.com/video/7k6UNV96L94/v-deo.html little sucker cup hooks mate 👍 those pesky windows😬😅 cheers
Hahahaha cracked me up this mate 😂 ,the "S" hole team😎👍
Cheers 👍 too me ages to edit this one🙄 thanks for watching 👌
I’m new to the Stihl battery kit I’m loving it but does it work in the rain
Love mine👍use mine in the rain and they're alright to use, occasionally when it's belting down the HLA65 stops but I hit the motor end with the blower and it goes again. Who wants to be out when it's belting down tho right? Thanks for watching 👌
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd thanks
Did you mow that grass at all?
No, think it was all strimmer work there
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd nice one.
Im a classical under pricer...😢.... 😂.....
Underestimating all over the place and trying to help people out... then watch them go on holiday number 2 of the year so far..
Pricing is hard on some jobs. The old we can't afford much then, when can you do it as we're away next month 😅
better with brushcutter and gaurd off your strimmer mate
Thanks 👍
Nice job big man we’re are you from do you have a large chipper to hire for the day
South Wales and sadly no big chipper😅
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd ah from Leeds us and we can’t find a big chipper anywhere we have a little one but just no good it’s to chip some laurauls about 25 of them 😩
I've a greenmech cs100 which does most of my size jobs, good luck with the job👍👍
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd nice we have a lumag rambo
Nice chipper like but only chips 5 inch
:-😉
🤴it was a shit hole to start with but not after 👍 That garden was pretty much my Chinese takeaway. Also on Saturday a guy pulled up on a job in lymm and asked our boss if we'd come to conway to manage properties in the area. And he was willing to pay travel
You still doing that Chinese job?😬😅 Sometimes people can't get anyone to do these type of jobs .. we've done loads while the lawns have been on their summer hols🤣
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd it's a quick £20 plus I'm borrowing his mini digger for a few days. Also on those types of jobs take plenty of before and after photos. To cover yourself in case the estate agent starts saying you might have damaged the property
@@jonathanbell7752 definitely with you on those pics
Hi mate what's the company your working for in Lymm? Trying to get more work around there
Good job m8
Cheers 👍
Do u work with/for real estate companys or house flippers?
Both to various levels depending on what comes in👍 cheers
i Nathan i run a gardening business also i was just wandering what was your quote for this? as i probably would of said £200 just to see if im on the mark. Cheers :)
Cheers for watching 👌 you're bang on with the £200 although no waste had to come away on this one. This was ongoing work for an agent so would have been higher price wise if not for them
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd cheers for the response mate! love the channel
@@12sniperben no probs and thanks 👍
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd makes me feel more hopeful for the WAY harder clearance I just quoted 250 for to get accepted. 200 square metres of 5 / 6 foot high brambles. No waste away.
Very competent, perceptive advice: I'm guessing you found school easy but you were too independent and disagreeable, as in not tolerating nonsense from anyone, to take the academic route.
Do you offer say an hours training service to people on basic maintenance of their garden? You do this as a profession, so I can imagine people would be prepared to pay quite a bit for this, given that you're giving them valuable knowledge you've gained over the years.
Thanks 👍 I was lucky and found school work easy, the system and people not so much. It was the mid 90s when they were pushing everyone to go to university and vocational work was for those that wouldn't get to uni. After summer break and going back to my second A level year my new geology teacher asked us what we had been doing during summer. I told him working with my father gardening and he dismissed it straight away, that will get you nowhere, you need ambition and should have been studying to get on in life. I was young and quite shy but did ask him if he had been studying so he could move on from just being a teacher so maybe he could become a university lecturer 😅 The following week he asked me to read in assembly knowing I'd find it difficult, we didn't get on the rest of the year unfortunately. He may have been right as I've never been ambitious but happy enough. Someone who I admire so much, my brother, did the opposite and went on to PhD then a high flying career. We often look at each others career and get slightly jealous. I don't offer training but this UA-cam thing was slightly for that reason....and maybe for that geology teacher. Cheers 👍
Did you say £50 an hour?
Doubt it was far off that for who I was working for that day, although would have been job price. Cheers 😃
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd. Ho one of them was it! Been in this business for about 30 years now, and it still amazes me how much work some people expect you to do, in so little time, for such little money! They employ you for two reasons, they either can do it themselves, or can't be bothered! They forget that we have many cost, to enable us to do the job in the first place!
Yea that can happen, this was for someone who I do work for at various properties so keep the price down
I would have said about 500 for that
I was under half that but wasn't a high standard finish, didn't take long👍
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd there's only so much u can do with that growth. It's 10x better than what it was. There's alot of work in it so my price would be on the higher side. If u have to do it every month then the price would be lower cause Ur staying on top of it.but if it's a one off job the price would be up. Don't forget ur time and work is valuable ✅
@@diesel_man99 if this wasn't for an ongoing customer it would have been more👍
King of shit 🕳 s = ££££... top video
Cheers mate 👍 thanks for watching
💩 think I'm to cheap 😒
Maybe you're the lucky one everyone likes😅I have to talk to myself if start getting 100% of quotes🤔
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd I talk to myself all the time 🤣 normally into the job which ends up being a $%$$$ %$%$# &&$$= $$%%€ tard .. 😒💩🍻👍
I think you need to rebrand... SHITHOLE garden services 😂👍🏻
😅 that's us on most jobs, even if it's tidy we can get it to that standard 😬🤣
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd Speaking of SHITHOLES I had a right job today... Strimming and clearing a overgrown brook. Had my wellies and waterproofs on, i could have literally rung out my underwear! Luckily though the mulching blade worked wonders 👍🏻 absolutely worth every penny like you say.
Bet that was fun, surly it was a job for last week's sunny weather tho 👌🤔
@@LewisgardenservicesLtd it should have been actually but I think I would have had to been naked to enjoy it 😂
Good video though, I have always struggled with quotes personally but I'm trying to move away from hourly rate as it's not working out for me like it used to... Quite a lot of trial and error involved still after all these years.
Do you work in Manchester
Bit far from me sorry