How to fix Simagic P1000 Load Cell Drift
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- Опубліковано 13 жов 2023
- Quick video that illustrate the issue affecting load cell brake pedals when using elastomers and how it can be easily fixed with a commonly available die springs.
stl for the die spring washer: www.thingiverse.com/thing:626...
recommended M6 metal washer: ID=6.5mm, OD=18mm, H=1.5mm
recommended die spring dimensions: ID=10mm, OD=20mm, H=32mm
I would suggest trying blue or red, dark green is going to be quite light (and anything less is going to be way too light)
example die spring source (UK, no affiliate): www.berger-tools.co.uk/Die_Sp... - Ігри
Excellent work! My pedals arrive this week, so great info.
Great find! Hopefully simagic make the change to springs.
I've been trying to tell people for 10 YEARS that there's something wrong with all the loadcell pedals I have owned including Fanatec Clubsport Pedals V2, Fana CSP V3 (with damper and Brake Performance Kit), Fana CSL Elite LC, Heusinkveld Ultimate Clones (with authentic Mavin loadcell and authentic German white FibroElast and green FibroFlex elastomers), and more. I didn't realise the problem was the elastomers, not loadcells, all I knew was that this problem existed.
Fanboys online always tell you you're wrong or you're crazy or whatever. Every time I would go back to potentiometer pedals (with modded springs or elastomers to be more strong than stock ones), the problem would go away and my driving would improve again and so would my driving enjoyment.
Recently, I decided to give loadcell another chance...again. This time I purchased the Thrustmaster T-LCM. With the TM pedals, the problem with every other loadcell pedal doesn't exist even though it's also a loadcell. Why is the TM T-LCM different than allll of the other ones? The only difference is that it uses springs, not elastomers. This is proof to me that the problem is not loadcells but elastomers/rubbers! Springs are way better! I knew there was something wrong with all these other loadcell pedals the past 10 years but no one would believe or understand no matter how many times I tried to tell people!
yeah it sucks when you know somethings off, but you can't put your finger on it or find a solution or even the problem.
The problem is hysteresis. Ironically, it's the reason why rubber tires generate grip. So, hysteresis is not just good but essential when it comes to grip whilst braking (and cornering and accelerating), just not so much when it comes to brake input.
Already printing that part, thanks.
Very cool and interesting Peter! Quick question, why even use any elastomers if the spring is so great?
Well done video.
@2:46 Any way we can buy those washers/sleeves? For those with no access to 3D printing. TY
Thanks for sharing!
This was my first thought as I saw elastomers being used in the P1000. I wanted to try finding the best spring that fits in there, if not even 2 - for a 2-stage feel.
So my questions to you: why did you use the 2 elastomers? (One on each end) and do you think a 2-stage spring setup is doable?
The total hight of elastomers is 48mm, the shortest die springs I can find is 25mm, 2 of these is reaching the limit, but you do have to use the washers cause springs material is harder than alu (and plastic) which could damage the stock parts, if you were to add 2 springs and washers you'd have to apply around 6mm preload, it could be fine, didn't test that though.
As for 2 elastomers I used - had my doubts, but after testing there's no drift so I don't mind them. The reason I used the elastomers is to have them as sacrificial components if it turned out the spring is damaging the stock assembly, so far it seems the concern was unnecessary as even with just pla it held just fine, but like I said in the video I didn't test it for long enough.
The bottom line is that the spring(s) solve drifting issue so it's down to the individual users to find their sweet spot.
@@petermakesthings7342 thank you!
@@petermakesthings7342would this be possible for the hydraulic mod on the p1000i?
@@Simlife101wouldn't the hydraulic leak of it was inverted?
@@phreshxmetal no, because you can pivot the p1000i hydraulic reservoir.
@petermakesthings7342 which combination of elastomers/rubbers were you using on the first test without the die spring?
The default one that comes with pedals, think it was 3x red, 3x blue and 2x grey
I m going to follow your mod. I just bought the 4 springs ( yellow, navy bleu, red and dark green and I will compare). thanks for the Tuto !
About the die spring washer, would you recommand PLA, TPU or something else ?
Btw, i m curious to know if this mod would be useable too with the Hydraulic kit !
I printed it from pla, would check on it everything couple of wks just make sure nothing gets damaged (like I said in the video I didn't do long term testing).
On the hydraulic you have different elastomers and there's no 'shaft' in the middle so the spacer won't work, I just put a sping in-between elastomers in mine and so far works fine :)
@@petermakesthings7342 Many thanks ! And what about the Hydraulic + spring feeling ? How do you feel the pedal now ? I took the "whole" range of springs because i think Hydraulic should be already a little bit harder stock.
Tbh in my opinion the hydraulic upgrade is so not worth it, don't feel a massive difference and the price is almost 40% of the full pedals set. That being said I'm not a pro, far from it in fact, so it might just the fact I don't have sufficient feel to appreciate the upgrade
@@petermakesthings7342 Thanks for the honest review. I will try soon the springs upgrade. I will check then.
Where’d you buy the springs from?
very interesting ! but why didn't you replace elastomers by a spring that lengh 20 x 10 x 45mm ? what would be the issue if you get rid of the washer ? thank you !
Springs are made from much harder material than plastic or aluminium, if you don't add a 'buffer' like ss washer or elastomer you're risking to damage the pedal enclosure
@@petermakesthings7342 thank you !
@@JoFandango great question and great answer by Peter!
which is the stiffest die spring? Im hoping to have a gt or foruma style stiffness in my pedal.
Thank you!
I think that might depend on where you get yours from. I got blue, yellow and red ones from Ali Express, one of each, and just by looking at them you can clearly see the red one is the thickest (therefore stiffest) spring. But looking at local websites from Brazil it seems the yellow ones are thicker than the reds and that's due to local norms and specifications. I guess you're gonna have to ask the store you will be purchasing yours from.
Hey Peter, just checking in as it’s been a few months - do you still use this setup or have you made any additional changes? Thanks!
First of all, thank you very much @petermakesthings7342 for sharing this mod. Definitely way better than using full elastomer pads! You can really have precise control with the pedal and it helps a lot on my trail braking. @JesseGebauer fyi Unfortunately, the 3D-printed washer (next to the red elastomer) broke into pieces after >10 hrs of use. The other 3D-printed washer is still intact and has no damage. I just finished making some modifications and we'll see if it will hold up in time... So basically what I did is used a metal washer next to the red elastomer and then I cut off the flange of the 3D-printed washer and only used the (ring) part that helps stabilize the die spring from moving side to side. The 3D-printed washer and metal washer configuration next to the blue elastomer remains the same. And by the way, I used the dark green (heavy load, 28% compression)10x20x35mm die spring I bought from the link below. As Peter mentioned, the preload tension needs to be dialed in properly. Otherwise, maintaining 100% brake pressure is somehow inconsistent. I will try the brown (X Heavy Load) die spring soon. It should increase the stiffness a bit and reduce the compression to 24%. Thus, slightly reducing the brake pedal travel. Also, the 3D-printed washer can be replaced with the combination of an M6 metal washer and stand-off and flange coupling (depending on the length of the die spring used). Happy modding guys!
www.aliexpress.com/item/4000277618107.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.main.7.35deeb1aSjLN1f&algo_pvid=5a5beb70-b1d8-4c9f-b357-4a0f73a78b17&algo_exp_id=5a5beb70-b1d8-4c9f-b357-4a0f73a78b17-3&pdp_npi=4%40dis%21SGD%214.10%213.60%21%21%212.96%212.60%21%402140e03217077105871952488ee53a%2112000025405462336%21sea%21SG%210%21AB&curPageLogUid=t8ZjXi87qjWI&utparam-url=scene%3Asearch%7Cquery_from%3A#nav-specification
Why do you think is better to have a spring rather than the hard elastomers coupled with the hall sensor reading? Thanks.
it's fully subjective personal opinion, I just prefer the feel of having the spring, as for why I prefer using LC vs hall -> precision, when you set your pedals hard it barely moves, so you utilise maybe 5% of 14bit hall sensor they're using, with lc it's all about the force so even if your pedal doesn't move at all you still get proper detailed readout
@@petermakesthings7342I didnàt know you would onely use about 5% of the possible pedal travel...
@@petermakesthings7342 I did my first test today with the same settings as yours : 1 red elastomere, 1 blue spring, 1 blue elastomere. The feeling is easier. I will test an harder spring to check, but for the price this mod is a very good one ! the hydraulic kit will wait now, i have to be sure i really want it.
oh... thanks!! 🙌👍👏.... do you think this fix will work with any other pedals?? ... uhmmm... I will try this with my Moza SR-P pedals... the break pedal has a 1 spring and 1 elastomer.. I will change the elastomer with a spring to see how works the break pedal🙂
I think it's a generic issue with the elastomers, see race beyond matter video on this, in my opinion the reason why it's so drastic with p1000 is because there's multiple small elastomers which inflates the problem
@@petermakesthings7342 yeah.... makes sense..
@@petermakesthings7342 just wondering, ever since race beyond matter changed to hydraulics on the p1000, he said no more problems. How would that be possible if he still uses the same elastomers?
the hydraulic system is generating much more force than the standard setup, which means you can use harder elastomers, you'll notice in the video he's using like 5 reds + 3 alu spacers, that simply limits the issue (that's my theory, didn't try it myself, using spring on hydraulic from very beginning)
👍@@petermakesthings7342
you recommended die spring dimensions: ID=10mm, OD=20mm, H=32mm
but I got the 30 or 35. Which is better?
thanks!
Both will work, you'll just have harder time to mount the 35mm cause they'll need to be compressed a bit
Why not just use Angle sensor with the elastomers? Is it just a preference on feel?
If you have a hard brake with very short travel hall sensor will lack resolution to get a precise reading, if you have a fairly long travel then yeah, doesn't make a big difference
@@petermakesthings7342 good to know. I'm scooping up these pedals in a couple weeks (hoping for a black Friday deal). Ilm prob try this spring mod. Thanks!
But if you use elastomers with angle it still kinda measures your force.
Example 1: If you apply 30kg of pressure on brake to have, let's say 75% braking power in game, and with that 30kg you move the pedal, let's say 5cm, you will always have to apply 30kg or 5cm to get 75% braking power!
Example 2: If you apply 35kg of pressure on brake to have, let's say 82% braking power in game, and with that 35kg you move the pedal, let's say 5,4cm, you will always have to apply 35kg or 5,4cm to get 82% braking power!
And this is the reason I love P1000, because you can have elastomers but measure distance!
So even simpler solution is to have elastomers and travel sensor for best precision, as you showed in the beginning of the video. You can be 1-2% perfect that way.
Only thing is, that you have to have at least some kind of travel to make this viable... those dudes that do 0,0cm brake pedal travel setups, sorry, you guys are crazy anyway! :)
And for guys that don't wanna mod and that still wanna use brake force and not travel, you can tinker with braking curve at the 80% point to make it not drop that much. It's not perfect solution, but it's some kind of first aid measure.
The entire elastomer relaxation debate is so misunderstood. In your example, you argue you hold the same position, yet the input is lowered in the software. Yet a loadcell doesn't measure position, you need to keep the same pressure. Of course a hall angle sensor measures your position more accurately than a loadcell because a loadcell is not designed to measure a position at all.
@drchtct it is a big problem. I drive the lotus 49 and this relaxation of the rubbers effects my times by up to 3 teeths and we all know that critical at higher skill levels as all drivers are within 1 tenth of each other.
When using springs and a loadcell Zero Loss on pressure but on the elastomers it was 10 to 20% drop in the first 2 seconds. Not sure how you can't see that's a big issue.
If it wasn't due to the way a loadcell works why does those problem go away once you add a spring????
The main issue isn't the just the relaxation it's the amount in % that's the issues. Without any feeling your letting off the pedals while you think your holding the brake at a certain % it drops way too much. Drop 1% or 2% yes but that's not the case loadcells using elestomers ALL have about 10% too 15% relaxation in the first 2 seconds come as high as 20% so if you need too keep 70% brake pressure for 3 seconds as we do in many formula cars but within 2 seconds that brake pressure will drop from 70% too 50% and that's the issue
he means he's holding the same position with a constant force !
Have been trying to explain this for ages. I actually mounted my pedal to a bench so the face was horizontal and used barbell disks and strap to hang the weights. This constant force registers absolutely stable, but you can observe a small creep in displacement of the pedal as the elastomer continues to expand outwards. I believe the heat generated by the compression causes the elastomer rubber to become maleable and this allows the continued displacement after the initial compression. The force applied to the elastomer is always fully transferred. I used the example of standing on a load cell bathroom scale in bare feet and then doing the same standing on a stack of elastomers, I would not magically have less mass.
@@JoFandango He is not holding constant force, that's the problem. The load cell always gets 100% of the force. He is holding the same position but due to the elastomers properties, holding the same position will require less force over time. Thus, he is holding the same position, but his holding force gets lower. That shows on the load cell.
For him to hold the same force, he would have to increase pedal deflection (which wouldn't increasing force)
@@Hugo-pj4bm Finally, some additional insight on the problem. I've been thinking this might be the case as well, but I cant test it because I havent bought it yet (im considering my options) and the weird thing is that it might depend on a person if you work better with angle or with force, as I changed the spring in my current pedal and I could 100% say that Im using force to determine how much I want to brake. So if I understand it correctly, if you focus on keeping the pressure without blocking your foot in constant position, you will get constant response as it should be?