Engaging and educational AS ALWAYS.👌🏼👍🏻 Loved this production🤍💙 and presentation style. Indeed very unfortunate that such 'error of judgement' on part of the crew and others, led to avoidable loss of life. As a miserly Indian (India, Asia).. who often does not put on the spectacles or switches on the computer.. a request for the animations team: the on screen graphics/text in Teal or light fonts and specific font types are often not the easiest to read in a smaller screen like tablets, mobiles. Much appreciate what you are doing.👍🏻👌🏼 I often send the link of your channel and of specific videos to enthusiasts and/or others who fancy engaging in aviation related content.
@@sailaab Thank you, oh I wish I had an animations team! it's just me. Feedback is always appreciated, the teal colour is a new addition to match the colour scheme of the logo. Perhaps I could make it bigger or put a bit of shading behind it to make it stand out more. It's also the best news to hear of people sharing the videos. That helps a lot. :D
Great video. Excellent channel. You stated that as they were about to move away the helicopter blades struck the aircraft. I thought there was a strong possibility that when the helicopter moved away to the right if only on a minor bank would cause the mast head to tilt as well as a change of angle even if the mast head didn't tilt but I'm pretty sure that they do. The reason I think this could be the cause is that its such a simple error to make when considering that there was no record of either pilot having experience in formation or close range flight as well as a moments thought of the worst being over & the automatic reflex of banking away for separation causing the rotors to strike the planes underbelly before the helicopter would fall away in its bank.
Why even bother with all this. If you can't physically fix the landing gear in the air, once the tower says it was down, you might as well just land. If it fails on landing, it fails, but there is nothing you can do to prevent that anyway.
I don't get it either. They already knew the gear was down, how could an in flight inspection tell the difference between down and locked or just down anyway? And if the gear wasn't locked, wht else could be done other than try and land the plane anyway as well? If someone can tell me HOW the helicopter pilot could possibly tell if locked, please tell me!
Feels a bit like procrastination... Y'know, trying to delay the inevitable -mostly because you haven't made a decision about what to do & how to do it (??)
@@karlbark Possibly. I also wonder if money played a role. As in, he wanted to PROVE that there was no way for him to avoid damage to an expensive plane. I guess we'll never really know.
charlotteinnocent8752, there is no real way to know what went on In those minds. And... hindsight always is perfect vision. I cannot say about the helicopter pulots, but the fixed wing craft crew . I mean.. there have been occasions when acquaintances or neighbours have offered to drop us somewhere.. and despite not wanting to take up on the 'lift' offer or actually having multiple other errands prior.. we/I have own shown little resistance and instead accepted to be driven to the station, bank or what have you. And likewise with the dishes/vegetable steps I did not even want to eat further, but to not make the hosts or the server uneasy.. i have chosen to have another serving. Anyway, this is entirely different. I would definitely not let my As8an/Indian cultural idiosyncrasies ever get in the way of SUCH protocol or procedures.. where numerous lives too are involved.
I have messaged so many accident channels to ask them to make a video on this tragedy. A US Senator is in a plane that collides with a helicopter? I am shocked I haven't seen anyone else cover this. Thank you, Curious Pilot.
That's good to hear, I try to find and cover incidents that many people are not aware of rather than covering the incidents that have been seen many times. Hopefully it provides 'fresh' content for this audience plus there are many accidents out there to learn from that are not as well known.
@CuriousPilot90 being a new subscriber I have to admit. .you have quickly moved way up on my list of aviation incidents. Great video yet so tragic. I'm thinking of the 2 children just playing outside of their school and then such a horrible way to die. Rest in Peace to the 7 lives lost 😢 Much love from North Carolina 🌷
A pessimistic person would say "No good deed goes unpunished". But, I agree with the findings...both pilots used poor judgement. First the pilot of the plane could see his nose landing gear was down, maybe locked, maybe not, the tower also verified it was down... the emergency ground crews were in place to assist in case it wasn't locked. Second, the helicopter pilot had never performed the task of in air close observation/assistance with another craft, but was really trying to be that "good neighbor" his company set forth. Very tragic. Can't help but think if the airplane pilot had been more confident in the supporting ground crew, everyone would have survived that day. 😢
I totally agree. Even a collapsed nose gear during landing would still mean some potential damage but at least everyone still alive. The helicopter should never have proposed this inspection.
guy was being paranoid. Like how sure you gotta be man? And what is the chopper gonna see that the tower didn't? If you're really that nervous then burn off all your fuel first....if youre still paranoid, then I guess you could just assume the worst and go gear up in the grass lol
This is so insane. What would they even do if they confirmed it wasn't locked?? It doesn't change anything. Just land softly with preparation that the gear could collapse. Its crazy.
If they had confirmation the nose gear wasn't locked, the best course of action would be to retract the gear entirely and perform a belly landing. If they had confirmation that it was, the best course of action would be to land normally. The problem is determining any of that for sure in the first place.
@@JonBrase they couldn’t confirm it no matter what. The best course of action was to land as is and prepare for the gear potentially collapsing. It’s as simple as that.
When the nose gear on the Aerostar comes out of the wheel well, it moves downwards and aft. As it encounters the air stream it helps to push the gear into the down and locked position. You don't need hydraulic pressure from either the engine driven pump or the aux electric driven hydraulic pump. It is fail safe to drop out even if hydraulic pressure is lost, when you select gear down. The system gets tested at each 100 hour inspection, both hydraulically and free fall without the pump. In addition, if the nose gear forward doors are closed, the down cycle has been completed. The problem was either the indicator switch or the gear down and locked light bulb or socket or possibly the wiring could have been worn as it bends when the gear is in motion. Either way, if you can see the nose wheel in the polished spinner, go right ahead and land.
Yep. Choosing not to do so was only one of his mistakes though. While there's no apparent consensus as to what caused the collision, I think it's pretty obvious that it was the pilot beginning his turn in for the approach before allowing the chopper to get clear that destabilized the airflow and pulled the chopper into the collision. The slight drop in altitude that comes with a turn likely didn't help either. Had he simply waited, the accident would likely have been avoided.
I love how this guy can find significant disasters that few are aware of. Senator Heinz was spoken of as a possible presidential contender one day. His fellow Senator, John Kerry, married his widow, at the same time becoming an enormously wealthy man.
What would they do if they somehow confirmed the landing gear wasn't locked? Wouldn't they have to attempt to land anyways? If so what would be the point of this maneuver?
This is a fair point, even if he was to land using the wing to aerodynamically brake and keeping the nose wheel off the ground as long as possible, the landing would have been fine. I guess the added pressure of having a politician in the back they wanted to at least show that they had tried everything before landing.
Idi*tic. No need to go through all that rigmarole. It's almost as if the captain of the airplane was showing off to the senator on board, of his flying skills in making low passes and banking near the control tower ostensibly to have them check the landing gear. It's almost always a burned out light bulb. No need for all this. Look at Eastern Airlines L-1011, that crashed in the Everglades in Florida, the same utter lack of judgement and inattention. As others mentioned, landing with the nose wheel not locked is not the end of the world, but monkeying around to confirm it with excessive caution can be the end of their world for those onboard and maybe even those on the ground.
I was at Merion elementary when this happened. One of the things I remember that made this so much more chaotic for this situation that day was that the plane landed on one side of the school, where we always practiced to line up during fire drills. Obviously we had a “backup” location we practiced to go to as well, but the helicopter landed there (or at least blocked access to that location). Among the remembrances for the perished students, I recall the school planted trees in the kids name and installed permanent benches with plaques. Haven’t been there in a long time, but I still drive by on occasion.
I still didn't understand what the pilot wanted. It didn't matter if the front landing gear was fixed or not, because it was impossible to repair in the air anyway.
Most likely a burned out bulb in the nose gear indicator. Could have taken a good bulb out of either the left or right main gear indicators and put in nose position just to see if it was green and then landed. Just my opinion as a retired airline maint tech.
I always try to cover incidents that are less known and bring ‘fresh’ content to the audience. There should be some more in my other videos. Thank you for the comment.
I think your analysis, and conclusion of this accident are spot-on. The pilots of both aircraft put themselves in a dangerous situation, with nothing to be gained .
I was friends with a kid who had been playing in the schoolyard with a boy who got very badly burned (his long recovery was a continuing news story in the Philly area). My friend said he heard someone say "Run!" so he ran and when he turned around he didn't see his friend anymore.
POV of an engineer, not a pilot: why can't you build a mechanism that looks different if locked? something sticking out? or no longer sticking out? why does an extended gear look exactly like a locked gear? and if you have trust issued with the gear, why can't you install a camerato look for said mechanical indicators yourself?
I'm from Pennsylvania, knew about Senator Heinz, but knew about the details of this incident. Thanks for your hard work and making this available on UA-cam.
So much mess for just gear indication... A unlocked nosewheel is nothing to really worry about... Just land as normal, accept some scratching up of your plane...
A perfect example of the sad truth that the rules & regulations of flying are written in blood. Having seen simulations & wind tunnel demos of the wake turbulence coming off both a small twin engine plane and a helicopter, this was a harrowing watch.... there are so many competing forces at play, and absolutely no reason for the two craft to be in such close proximity. Thank you for sharing this tragic case, I hadn't heard this one before. RIP to the victims. 🤍
Great video as always! It was completely unnecessary for the helicopter crew to examine the front landing gear and the outcome was tragic. I love your new intro and ending, it’s very professional. Keep the great videos coming! :-)
What in the world did they think the pilot of the helicopter was going to be able see, that he couldn't see the first time? And that the tower couldn't see? And even if they were somehow able to confirm that the landing gear wasn't locked, what then? Stay in the air forever? They were going to have to land anyway, so they may as well have just done that without taking those extra risks. This seems to me like an example of groupthink, with no one speaking up to play devil's advocate and saying, "Why are we doing this? This is a bad idea." What a tragedy for all involved, especially those innocent children on the ground and their families.
I concur with your concluding analysis. An initial visual inspection confirmed that the gear was down but the Captain was unsure if it was locked. Any amount of visual inspections by the tower or other aircraft could not conclude that the gear was locked. One visual and subsequent confirmation would have sufficed and then the crew should have prepared for landing. Emergency vehicles standing by. Retrospective condolences to all who lost their lives.
Wow so many lives lost just because a light didnt show that the front landing wheel was locked in position so so tragic r i p 2 all who lost there life ❤
Reminds of the plane crash in the Everglades a light was burnt out so the pilots believed their landing gear wasn’t down and messed around trying to figure it out, it was at night so they couldn’t tell they were getting closer to the ground, and when the pilot turned he hit the auto pilot which became disengaged, come to find out the landing gear was down the whole time, the light just wasn’t showing.
One pass to confirm that the nose wheel was down was enough. They were lucky the first time when the helicopter checked it and also when the tower confirmed it. No amount of further visuals would make the gear any safer and the Piper pilot should have then prepared for a failed nose wheel landing.
Both the tower flyover and second inspection by helicopter were totally unnecessary. It would be impossible to determine if the gear was locked in or not. Very poor decision making by both crews.
What an amazing video and incident. Thank you for sharing yet another event I had never heard of! I absolutely love this channel, I hope it keeps growing and growing! Also, the intro is great! And the ending is a great/fun addition. It makes it look even more professional. Great work!
I was on the airport when this happend. All the emotions are still vivid. Always wondered why the helicopter would be so ridiculous close to the aircraft. You can’t see more then the wheel is down.
I’m from Pittsburgh & remember being taught about this during my PPL training. John Heinz was/is a well known local figure, & I remember hearing about this when I was young. R.I.P.
Going by the pilot's "well OK" each time help was offered, I think he knew it was pointless and just went along with it to be polite. That said, with the impact occurring shortly after he said he was going to turn back in for the approach, I think it was likely the change to the airflow when he began to turn that caused the chopper to get drawn into the collision. He should have waited until the chopper was well clear before initiating the turn. Edit: Also, the turn theory would explain why some eyewitnesses thought the plane descended into the chopper while others thought the chopper ascended into the plane. The chopper may have essentially been caught in the plane's draft (similar to getting in behind a semi on the interstate.) With it being to the right of the plane, the beginning of the plane's bank to the left for it's turn, would have caused the right wing (and thus it's turbulent airflow) to rise. That would likely pull the chopper up with it. The plane beginning to bank would cause it to begin losing a bit of altitude. Depending on the view point, some would see the chopper rise while others would see the plane descend.
It was confirmed by three different sources the landing gear was down, I don’t know what the helicopter doing an inspection could have done since they can’t confirm whether the gear is locked
Absolutely senseless and tragic. Chopper couldn't tell him anything he didn't already know. But Heinzsight is always 20/20. We must learn from this so their deaths are not in vain. Not always a good idea to be the nice guy. RIP all involved.
I appreciate you doing smaller, lesser known or well known General Aviation accidents. Most focus on the Commercial Aviation Accidents. One request; I’d be interested and grateful to see a video/analysis of the January 27, 2001 Beechcraft King Air 200 Catpass N81PF crash in Strasburg, Colorado killing 10 members/staff of the Oklahoma State University Cowboys basketball team. They had just played a game against The University of Colorado Buffaloes and were flying back to Stillwater, Oklahoma. They made it to FL23,200 and crashed 40 miles from Jefferson County Airport (KBJC). I was a staffer for the team that season. I remember going to the Stillwater Regional Airport (KSWO) with a group from the OSU Athletic Department after hearing only two of the three Aircraft had made it back and we had reports that the 3rd had crashed. We didn’t know exactly who was on board, so we went to the Airport to see who’s cars were still in the parking lot. One of the most Sad/eerie nights of my life seeing the cars and realizing who wasn’t coming back. Looking into the cars windows with a flashlight, seeing what was inside them, left untouched and exactly as they were when their owners parked at the airport for the flight to the game, frozen in time.
Thank you. I am sorry to hear that, I think I looked into that incident a few years ago. It might be a different one but I vaguely remember, something to do with one of the aircraft losing navigation or having issues in the cloud/snow. I'll take a look and see what I can do.
I don’t understand what new information the helicopter could give? The pilot knew it was down because he could see it. He didn’t know if it was locked and how could the helicopter see it was locked?
It's one of those woefully avoidable and quite bizarre accidents. I fully understand the helicopter crew were just trying to help but sometimes the best help is not to get in the way. The Piper crew should have more trust in the ARFF and the aircraft itself
An old apothegm says that, "For the want of a nail, ultimately, the kingdom was lost." It sounds as if for the want of a nose gear light tragedy was brought.
On an instrument training flight I landed with no indication of "down and locked" nose gear. The flight instructor exhibited good crm by telling me to fly the airplane while he diagnosed the problem. We landed and I held the nose up as long as possible. Nose gear held, turned out to be a buned out light bulb. It was a Cessna Cutlass aka 172 rg.
unreal. I was a paratropper in the army 67-70 and when ever we did a chopper jump it always scared the crap out of me as the pilots flew so close together. the pilots always seemed a bit squirely to me
true but I was 18 at the time and my pay was $72.00 a month and jump pay wa s a additional $55.00 a month so it almost doubled my pay. sent half my pay home to my mother as she needed it. I would never jump out of a plane at my age now 74.@@Knick-Knack
@@Knick-Knack Technically, if you think a pilot is a bit squirrelly, then jumping out of the aircraft seems like a good idea (especially if you have the training/equipment).
I have seen planes land with no gear down and their odds were better than a mid-air collision...this obsessive attention to detail was to their detriment...I think one would rather take their chances with the gear than risk these high stakes maneuvers...there is a reason why safe separation distances are in place... RIP to the deceased...
They already knew the gear was down, how could an in flight inspection tell the difference between down and locked or just down anyway? And if the gear wasn't locked, what else could be done other than try and land the plane anyway as well? If someone can tell me HOW the helicopter pilot could possibly tell if locked, please tell me!
What were they thinking. Over a busy area. Those poor kids who did nothing and paid the price for their foolish antics. You don't even have to be a pilot to instantly know that is anything but a good idea
Why did they bother flying over the tower to get them to look at the landing gear when they already knew the gear was down, and why bother getting the helicopter to look twice?
Honestly people overthink gear problems, just treat them as if they are an emergency. Doing the gear up procedure with functional gear will still give you a normal successful landing.
I bet the “good neighbor” policy was rewritten after. Pilots train for these events, more complex planes use sims, but even a light-twin trains for gear malfunctions. Sad fact this accident was 100% avoidable. Great job capturing the facts.
All good neighbor policies, spoken and unspoken, inside and outside of aviation have been rewritten. There are no good neighbors anymore, everyone is out for themselves.
Introducing all these variables just for a nose gear indication is such poor judgement on all parties. Landing the Aerostar safely should have been within the crew's capabilities even with nose gear collapse.
A situation happened while I was working ground service for Command Airways in 1971 flying out of Duchess County , NY. The Company President was aboard a Beech-99 night flight and the pilot did not get a nose wheel lock light so we got a Colgan Airways plane to give our pilot a visual confirmation of nose wheel down status. Then the Airport Manager told me to radio our pilot and divert the flight to another airport. I told him I would not do that as the pilot is in charge of the situation as per FAA regs. Our bird landed safely .
Not being a pilot & just thinking out loud, the plane will be landing no matter what else is reported to them & everyone in ready for whatever happens. That said, no matter what the Helo sees it won't change a thing & that makes this an unneeded look at the plane. I understand it was all done in a helpful intent but truly they already reported all they could the 1st time & the tower did as well. That makes this something that won't change anything but then this happened. RIP & I hope the families found solace in this tragic event. peace
This makes me think of the Eastern Airlines L1011 crash in the Everglades. The pilots lost situational awareness and crashed all because they were obsessed over a single landing gear indicator light. There was also a United DC8/707 that ran out of fuel dicking around with a gear indicator. Fixating on an issue you can’ fix in the air is not the best course of action. Run the procedures you need to and then attempt to land. Don’t fixate on the problem.
Sometimes the generous human need to be helpful turns into a competition that overwhelms common sense. There was no reason for the helicopter to be anywhere near the plane. Also, the approach of a helicopter and it's violent turbulence, very different from a small plane, should be seen as highly dangerous and unpredictable. The air traffic controllers could have intervened and put a stop go this fiasco beforehand.
The holes lined up as usual. Both pilots as reported bear responsibility for deciding to look closer at what was already confirmed. But the final nail was the helicopter pilot not keeping clear of the plane. He was the only one that had eyes on the situation. The other pilot was only aware of the proximity of the helicopter and seems to have been doing everything he could to keep a stable flight path. So sad for everyone and especially the children who perished and all the others that are related in any way.😢
Approaching from the rear in the helicopter and below was absolutely ignorant on behalf of that pilot. Additionally getting that close for any inspection well it's beyond stupid😮....
It’s like when my 86 year old mother goes waaaaaaay out of her way to try and help and just ends up causing more issues by “helping”. It was totally unneccesary.
My brother told me the Aerostar pilot was incompetent after this happened in 1991. His job was flying the Aerostar too, but 4 nights a week on a scheduled airline, single pilot command, building good quality time. And they way he explained the quirks of an Aerostar was gear warning light not down was just a common nuisance on Aerostars.
This was a brilliant video! Very interesting new material for me, I’d not given this aspect of close formation flying, any previous thought. A tragedy, but after one inspection it’s a pity they decided to try for a second time instead of just landing. It can’t have seemed a very safe plane to the Senator, if all this was after a previous false start to sort out a surging engine. I don’t know if they got into the air that time, but presumably the gear was OK if they did.
As you said, they could see visual cues, the only way to verify if it was locked was to land. It seems very poor decision making on the procedure and location to execute the exercise.
I had two model helicopters, we were flying them in formation. When one of the helicopter was below the other, it literally pulled the other down. I suspect the same happened there, the helicopter pulled the airplane down.
As a complete (almost) ignoramus in this particular type of incident, it sounds to me that one other safety regulation ought to dictate that aircraft utilizing very different principles of airfoil lift should never be within 500-1,000 feet of each other in any direction during flight due to the varying turbulences generated by them interacting BADLY.
Another incident that I really can't understand. Obviously, there was no proper communication between the pilots of the airplane and the chopper. If you're that close, the pilots should have agreed on a procedure to gain a safe separation after the inspection (i.e. helicopter slows down and sinks, airccraft climbs and maintains speed and direction). And the pilot of the helicopter should never have been that close to the other aircraft given his lack of experience with formation flying. I also can't understand the reason why this close inspection of the landing gear was done in the firstt place. The piot knew his front gear was down. That was the only thing that could be confirmed via a visual inspection from the outside, and that had been done already. The helicopter crew could not see whether the gear was locked or not, regardless how close they came. It was a completely useless risk taken by both pilots, and it was a fatal one... I cannot understand why both pilots made that risky move. There was nothig to be gained from it.
Should never have happened in my humble opinion, the pilot should have just lowered his threshold speed with a glide approach on short final and keep the flare for as long as possible and place the nose wheel down gently, he knew the crash teams where deployed.
I dont like to talk badly of the dead, they made their decisions and paid the ultimate price, the saddest part is hearing that children on the ground died as a result of the pilots stupidity. Those planes are more than capable of doing safe emergency landings so if he truly believed the landing gear was fauly he should have started an emergency landing procedure. Nobody would have died if they had followed their training and not this silly idea of using a helicopter to take a look, the tower would have offered the same advice during a low flyby before landing.
Hi sir,just recently found your channel,I really enjoyed it,as you're military pilot,there's been a collision between 2 helicopter operated by Malaysian navy during a practice to celebrate 90 years of the nayv,and I believed there's some factor that can be related to this incident,in fact I watched this video after the collision came to my knowledge,I hope you'll consider looking into the incident as I hope to know your POV,love from Malaysia
Empty weight of a Bell is 7,000 lbs - Don't think it was an up set event. More like target fixation and the Piper headed down before it was clear... Flew formation rotary wing , Unless you've done it , Don't. Both crews lacked experience.
The helicopter pilot was trying to be a hero and the plane pilot was either people pleasing in letting the helicopter pilot inspect his nose gear up close in flight, which was completely unnecessary as tower had already confirmed it down and he could see himself the gear was down, or the plane pilot was anticipating criticism for landing without the nose gear locked and was trying to get as many witnesses as possible to say that the nose gear was indeed down. Either way bad call by all. Tower too should not have let the helicopter do a visual inspection in flight when they already knew the nose gear was down. Why nobody told the helicopter pilot that 'we know the nose gear is down, we just don't know if it is locked in position' beggars belief. Especially the plane pilot letting an unnecessary and dangerous inspection go ahead when at best it would only reveal what he already knew to be the case.
3 visuals confirm front landing gear in the down position. Not partially down, but down. PA-60 pilot should have simply landed the plane as the front gear rotated down and backwards. The landing would push the gear further backwards and lock it in place if it wasn’t already locked. Lack of knowledge and inexperience. The perfect recipe for disaster.
More training after flight school - free - is a good way to avoid trouble - a bunch of known difficult scenarios are taught and how best to handle each.
I don't understand why the helicopter was so close to begin with. If your nose gear isn't down or locked there's nothing that can be done except to get the ground crews ready for an emergency landing.
We live in Bucks County PA (not to far from the accident location) and remember this well. As I got my pilots license later after this incident, I can't imagine why they would have a helicopter check to to see if the gear was down as the tower stated it was. No one would be able to tell if it was locked as the video states. Philadelphia (KPHL) has an excellent rapid response team so they should have just landed at the airport and the worst possible outcome would have been a collapsed nose gear landing. Problem, yes. The worst thing in the world, no. For that that 2 children died along with everybody else. It was horrible. That's the only thing I can say. Thanks for the good video and you got it 100% correct.
Thank you, the result is such a shame. As you say no more could be gained from the visual inspection from the helicopter. I can only think that the crew of the Piper aircraft were being extra cautious as the Senator was on board. Cautious was probably not the best term, but attempting to make sure they had tried 100% of the options available before commiting to the landing.
Wow, what a waste, first thing I always think of in these situations is a faulty bulb or wiring. It was actually much easier to survive this than it was for everyone to lose their lives. All this needs is some turbulence and you have a disaster
I'm thinking the downwash from the chopper combined with altitude loss when the PA60 dipped his wing to turn caused the PA60 to descend into the chopper blades.
How close to you have to be to see if there is a problem with the gear. The tower could see easily from where he was, no need for the Helicopter to get anywhere near that plane.
I'm not an aviator but as I understand it the nosewheel was severally confirmed as being down but not locked into place, presumably meaning that it could collapse on landing and cause damage and worse. In that case couldn't the small plane have gone ahead and landed and the fire appliances then spray the front end of the aircraft with foam to minimise the danger of sparks potentially posing danger of an explosion?
Landing with the nose gear not locked is not going to pose a big risk to anyone on board. Especially with two pilots you should even be able shut down the engines before nose wheel touchdown. There’s gonna be damage, maybe a runway excursion or in the worst case a fire after landing. But with fire crews standing by this would never warrant such a dangerous maneuver. What they could have done instead would be to divert to an airport with a wider runway if one was in range. Sadly this really was an unnecessary accident caused by misjudgment on part of both crews. It also highlights the importance of evaluating offering help before doing so. It’s human to want to help an aircraft in distress in any way possible but you have to consider if you are actually helping and keep in mind a pilot in distress is more likely to accept an offer even if it is unreasonable, unnecessary or outright dangerous. And you have are always responsible for the safety of your own aircraft and the people on ground first, even if you are trying to help.
Did anyone get bingo for ‘PA-60’, ‘Bell 412’ and ‘tower’?
I hope you found the video interesting, thanks for watching.
Engaging and educational AS ALWAYS.👌🏼👍🏻
Loved this production🤍💙 and presentation style.
Indeed very unfortunate that such 'error of judgement' on part of the crew and others, led to avoidable loss of life.
As a miserly Indian (India, Asia).. who often does not put on the spectacles or switches on the computer.. a request for the animations team:
the on screen graphics/text in Teal or light fonts and specific font types are often not the easiest to read in a smaller screen like tablets, mobiles.
Much appreciate what you are doing.👍🏻👌🏼
I often send the link of your channel and of specific videos to enthusiasts and/or others who fancy engaging in aviation related content.
@@sailaab Thank you, oh I wish I had an animations team! it's just me. Feedback is always appreciated, the teal colour is a new addition to match the colour scheme of the logo. Perhaps I could make it bigger or put a bit of shading behind it to make it stand out more. It's also the best news to hear of people sharing the videos. That helps a lot. :D
Might be a good idea to change your intro to something else because it is CP which means somethin even worse 😅😅
Huh?
Great video. Excellent channel.
You stated that as they were about to move away the helicopter blades struck the aircraft. I thought there was a strong possibility that when the helicopter moved away to the right if only on a minor bank would cause the mast head to tilt as well as a change of angle even if the mast head didn't tilt but I'm pretty sure that they do. The reason I think this could be the cause is that its such a simple error to make when considering that there was no record of either pilot having experience in formation or close range flight as well as a moments thought of the worst being over & the automatic reflex of banking away for separation causing the rotors to strike the planes underbelly before the helicopter would fall away in its bank.
Why even bother with all this. If you can't physically fix the landing gear in the air, once the tower says it was down, you might as well just land. If it fails on landing, it fails, but there is nothing you can do to prevent that anyway.
I don't get it either. They already knew the gear was down, how could an in flight inspection tell the difference between down and locked or just down anyway? And if the gear wasn't locked, wht else could be done other than try and land the plane anyway as well? If someone can tell me HOW the helicopter pilot could possibly tell if locked, please tell me!
Feels a bit like procrastination... Y'know, trying to delay the inevitable -mostly because you haven't made a decision about what to do & how to do it (??)
@@karlbark Possibly. I also wonder if money played a role. As in, he wanted to PROVE that there was no way for him to avoid damage to an expensive plane. I guess we'll never really know.
Yep you just lower your threshold speed with a glide approach and keep the flare for as long as possible and place the nose wheel down gently.
charlotteinnocent8752, there is no real way to know what went on In those minds.
And... hindsight always is perfect vision.
I cannot say about the helicopter pulots, but the fixed wing craft crew
. I mean.. there have been occasions when acquaintances or neighbours have offered to drop us somewhere.. and despite not wanting to take up on the 'lift' offer or actually having multiple other errands prior.. we/I have own shown little resistance and instead accepted to be driven to the station, bank or what have you.
And likewise with the dishes/vegetable steps I did not even want to eat further, but to not make the hosts or the server uneasy.. i have chosen to have another serving.
Anyway, this is entirely different.
I would definitely not let my As8an/Indian cultural idiosyncrasies ever get in the way of SUCH protocol or procedures.. where numerous lives too are involved.
I have messaged so many accident channels to ask them to make a video on this tragedy. A US Senator is in a plane that collides with a helicopter? I am shocked I haven't seen anyone else cover this. Thank you, Curious Pilot.
That's good to hear, I try to find and cover incidents that many people are not aware of rather than covering the incidents that have been seen many times. Hopefully it provides 'fresh' content for this audience plus there are many accidents out there to learn from that are not as well known.
@CuriousPilot90 being a new subscriber I have to admit. .you have quickly moved way up on my list of aviation incidents. Great video yet so tragic. I'm thinking of the 2 children just playing outside of their school and then such a horrible way to die.
Rest in Peace to the 7 lives lost 😢
Much love from North Carolina 🌷
The chain of events are amazing.
A pessimistic person would say "No good deed goes unpunished". But, I agree with the findings...both pilots used poor judgement. First the pilot of the plane could see his nose landing gear was down, maybe locked, maybe not, the tower also verified it was down... the emergency ground crews were in place to assist in case it wasn't locked. Second, the helicopter pilot had never performed the task of in air close observation/assistance with another craft, but was really trying to be that "good neighbor" his company set forth. Very tragic. Can't help but think if the airplane pilot had been more confident in the supporting ground crew, everyone would have survived that day. 😢
I totally agree. Even a collapsed nose gear during landing would still mean some potential damage but at least everyone still alive. The helicopter should never have proposed this inspection.
Stupid pilot
guy was being paranoid. Like how sure you gotta be man? And what is the chopper gonna see that the tower didn't?
If you're really that nervous then burn off all your fuel first....if youre still paranoid, then I guess you could just assume the worst and go gear up in the grass lol
This is so insane. What would they even do if they confirmed it wasn't locked?? It doesn't change anything. Just land softly with preparation that the gear could collapse. Its crazy.
If they had confirmation the nose gear wasn't locked, the best course of action would be to retract the gear entirely and perform a belly landing. If they had confirmation that it was, the best course of action would be to land normally. The problem is determining any of that for sure in the first place.
@@JonBrase they couldn’t confirm it no matter what. The best course of action was to land as is and prepare for the gear potentially collapsing. It’s as simple as that.
When the nose gear on the Aerostar comes out of the wheel well, it moves downwards and aft. As it encounters the air stream it helps to push the gear into the down and locked position. You don't need hydraulic pressure from either the engine driven pump or the aux electric driven hydraulic pump. It is fail safe to drop out even if hydraulic pressure is lost, when you select gear down. The system gets tested at each 100 hour inspection, both hydraulically and free fall without the pump. In addition, if the nose gear forward doors are closed, the down cycle has been completed. The problem was either the indicator switch or the gear down and locked light bulb or socket or possibly the wiring could have been worn as it bends when the gear is in motion. Either way, if you can see the nose wheel in the polished spinner, go right ahead and land.
Yep. Choosing not to do so was only one of his mistakes though. While there's no apparent consensus as to what caused the collision, I think it's pretty obvious that it was the pilot beginning his turn in for the approach before allowing the chopper to get clear that destabilized the airflow and pulled the chopper into the collision. The slight drop in altitude that comes with a turn likely didn't help either. Had he simply waited, the accident would likely have been avoided.
Agree
I love how this guy can find significant disasters that few are aware of. Senator Heinz was spoken of as a possible presidential contender one day. His fellow Senator, John Kerry, married his widow, at the same time becoming an enormously wealthy man.
Yeah , no kidding - $$$
Heinze was Republican ans a great representative of the people. Kerry is scum...
@@bobwilson758 With every cloud a silver...love at first $$$
Senator Heinz. Wow he got his beans that day.
Interesting indeed.
I can’t stop shaking my head. A great review of an unnecessary tragedy.
What would they do if they somehow confirmed the landing gear wasn't locked? Wouldn't they have to attempt to land anyways? If so what would be the point of this maneuver?
The landing would be handled differently.
This is a fair point, even if he was to land using the wing to aerodynamically brake and keeping the nose wheel off the ground as long as possible, the landing would have been fine. I guess the added pressure of having a politician in the back they wanted to at least show that they had tried everything before landing.
I’ve seen student pilots manage this type of landing, you keep it nose high as long as possible
Idi*tic. No need to go through all that rigmarole. It's almost as if the captain of the airplane was showing off to the senator on board, of his flying skills in making low passes and banking near the control tower ostensibly to have them check the landing gear. It's almost always a burned out light bulb. No need for all this. Look at Eastern Airlines L-1011, that crashed in the Everglades in Florida, the same utter lack of judgement and inattention. As others mentioned, landing with the nose wheel not locked is not the end of the world, but monkeying around to confirm it with excessive caution can be the end of their world for those onboard and maybe even those on the ground.
Yep you just lower your threshold speed with a glide approach and keep the flare for as long as possible and place the nose wheel down gently.
I was at Merion elementary when this happened. One of the things I remember that made this so much more chaotic for this situation that day was that the plane landed on one side of the school, where we always practiced to line up during fire drills. Obviously we had a “backup” location we practiced to go to as well, but the helicopter landed there (or at least blocked access to that location).
Among the remembrances for the perished students, I recall the school planted trees in the kids name and installed permanent benches with plaques.
Haven’t been there in a long time, but I still drive by on occasion.
Thank you for sharing that, it must have been a shocking experience.
Hello neighbor, I was down the street at Lower Merion High School when this happened.
I was shopping for frog's teeth that day.
I was shopping for frog's teeth that day.
@@professorvoluck9311Kobe Bryant!!
I still didn't understand what the pilot wanted. It didn't matter if the front landing gear was fixed or not, because it was impossible to repair in the air anyway.
Most likely a burned out bulb in the nose gear indicator. Could have taken a good bulb out of either the left or right main gear indicators and put in nose position just to see if it was green and then landed. Just my opinion as a retired airline maint tech.
Thank you for covering this. Not often do you get to find out what went wrong with the small aircraft.
I always try to cover incidents that are less known and bring ‘fresh’ content to the audience. There should be some more in my other videos. Thank you for the comment.
I think your analysis, and conclusion of this accident are spot-on. The pilots of both aircraft put themselves in a dangerous situation, with nothing to be gained .
I was friends with a kid who had been playing in the schoolyard with a boy who got very badly burned (his long recovery was a continuing news story in the Philly area). My friend said he heard someone say "Run!" so he ran and when he turned around he didn't see his friend anymore.
POV of an engineer, not a pilot: why can't you build a mechanism that looks different if locked? something sticking out? or no longer sticking out? why does an extended gear look exactly like a locked gear? and if you have trust issued with the gear, why can't you install a camerato look for said mechanical indicators yourself?
I'm from Pennsylvania, knew about Senator Heinz, but knew about the details of this incident. Thanks for your hard work and making this available on UA-cam.
I appreciate that, thank you.
So much mess for just gear indication... A unlocked nosewheel is nothing to really worry about... Just land as normal, accept some scratching up of your plane...
Thank you for clarifying. I was thinking the same thing... and how would they have even confirmed it was "locked" from their perspective?
I think the helicopter pilot was determined to 'help' no matter the consequences.
@wattage2007.
In what way was he supposed to have helped?
A perfect example of the sad truth that the rules & regulations of flying are written in blood. Having seen simulations & wind tunnel demos of the wake turbulence coming off both a small twin engine plane and a helicopter, this was a harrowing watch.... there are so many competing forces at play, and absolutely no reason for the two craft to be in such close proximity. Thank you for sharing this tragic case, I hadn't heard this one before. RIP to the victims. 🤍
Great video as always! It was completely unnecessary for the helicopter crew to examine the front landing gear and the outcome was tragic. I love your new intro and ending, it’s very professional. Keep the great videos coming! :-)
Unbelievable they would jump thru hoops for no good reason. Absolutely uncalled for.
What in the world did they think the pilot of the helicopter was going to be able see, that he couldn't see the first time? And that the tower couldn't see? And even if they were somehow able to confirm that the landing gear wasn't locked, what then? Stay in the air forever? They were going to have to land anyway, so they may as well have just done that without taking those extra risks. This seems to me like an example of groupthink, with no one speaking up to play devil's advocate and saying, "Why are we doing this? This is a bad idea." What a tragedy for all involved, especially those innocent children on the ground and their families.
This was really interesting, thank you
I concur with your concluding analysis. An initial visual inspection confirmed that the gear was down but the Captain was unsure if it was locked. Any amount of visual inspections by the tower or other aircraft could not conclude that the gear was locked. One visual and subsequent confirmation would have sufficed and then the crew should have prepared for landing. Emergency vehicles standing by. Retrospective condolences to all who lost their lives.
Wow so many lives lost just because a light didnt show that the front landing wheel was locked in position so so tragic r i p 2 all who lost there life ❤
Eastern Airlines had same problem
Way worse crash
@PInk77W1 well mayby he can do a video on this accident if he hasent already because i dont think ive listened 2 that accident b 4
@@BlindBlue196 Eastern accident is very famous. So my guess is he probably has done one
Reminds of the plane crash in the Everglades a light was burnt out so the pilots believed their landing gear wasn’t down and messed around trying to figure it out, it was at night so they couldn’t tell they were getting closer to the ground, and when the pilot turned he hit the auto pilot which became disengaged, come to find out the landing gear was down the whole time, the light just wasn’t showing.
@@bambilackner Yeap. EASTERN L-1011
One pass to confirm that the nose wheel was down was enough. They were lucky the first time when the helicopter checked it and also when the tower confirmed it. No amount of further visuals would make the gear any safer and the Piper pilot should have then prepared for a failed nose wheel landing.
There was absolutely NO reason for the helicopter to inspect the nosewheel and to be so close to do it.
Both the tower flyover and second inspection by helicopter were totally unnecessary. It would be impossible to determine if the gear was locked in or not. Very poor decision making by both crews.
What an amazing video and incident. Thank you for sharing yet another event I had never heard of! I absolutely love this channel, I hope it keeps growing and growing!
Also, the intro is great! And the ending is a great/fun addition. It makes it look even more professional. Great work!
That's great, thank you. I am quite fond of the intro :D
I was on the airport when this happend.
All the emotions are still vivid.
Always wondered why the helicopter would be so ridiculous close to the aircraft.
You can’t see more then the wheel is down.
I’m from Pittsburgh & remember being taught about this during my PPL training. John Heinz was/is a well known local figure, & I remember hearing about this when I was young. R.I.P.
Great video
New subscriber 😊
😁
Going by the pilot's "well OK" each time help was offered, I think he knew it was pointless and just went along with it to be polite. That said, with the impact occurring shortly after he said he was going to turn back in for the approach, I think it was likely the change to the airflow when he began to turn that caused the chopper to get drawn into the collision. He should have waited until the chopper was well clear before initiating the turn.
Edit: Also, the turn theory would explain why some eyewitnesses thought the plane descended into the chopper while others thought the chopper ascended into the plane. The chopper may have essentially been caught in the plane's draft (similar to getting in behind a semi on the interstate.) With it being to the right of the plane, the beginning of the plane's bank to the left for it's turn, would have caused the right wing (and thus it's turbulent airflow) to rise. That would likely pull the chopper up with it. The plane beginning to bank would cause it to begin losing a bit of altitude. Depending on the view point, some would see the chopper rise while others would see the plane descend.
It was confirmed by three different sources the landing gear was down, I don’t know what the helicopter doing an inspection could have done since they can’t confirm whether the gear is locked
Absolutely senseless and tragic. Chopper couldn't tell him anything he didn't already know.
But Heinzsight is always 20/20.
We must learn from this so their deaths are not in vain.
Not always a good idea to be the nice guy.
RIP all involved.
I appreciate you doing smaller, lesser known or well known General Aviation accidents. Most focus on the Commercial Aviation Accidents.
One request; I’d be interested and grateful to see a video/analysis of the January 27, 2001 Beechcraft King Air 200 Catpass N81PF crash in Strasburg, Colorado killing 10 members/staff of the Oklahoma State University Cowboys basketball team. They had just played a game against The University of Colorado Buffaloes and were flying back to Stillwater, Oklahoma. They made it to FL23,200 and crashed 40 miles from Jefferson County Airport (KBJC).
I was a staffer for the team that season. I remember going to the Stillwater Regional Airport (KSWO) with a group from the OSU Athletic Department after hearing only two of the three Aircraft had made it back and we had reports that the 3rd had crashed. We didn’t know exactly who was on board, so we went to the Airport to see who’s cars were still in the parking lot.
One of the most Sad/eerie nights of my life seeing the cars and realizing who wasn’t coming back. Looking into the cars windows with a flashlight, seeing what was inside them, left untouched and exactly as they were when their owners parked at the airport for the flight to the game, frozen in time.
Thank you. I am sorry to hear that, I think I looked into that incident a few years ago. It might be a different one but I vaguely remember, something to do with one of the aircraft losing navigation or having issues in the cloud/snow. I'll take a look and see what I can do.
A very informed video - thank you from a new Subscriber .
I don’t understand what new information the helicopter could give? The pilot knew it was down because he could see it. He didn’t know if it was locked and how could the helicopter see it was locked?
It's one of those woefully avoidable and quite bizarre accidents. I fully understand the helicopter crew were just trying to help but sometimes the best help is not to get in the way. The Piper crew should have more trust in the ARFF and the aircraft itself
An old apothegm says that, "For the want of a nail, ultimately, the kingdom was lost." It sounds as if for the want of a nose gear light tragedy was brought.
On an instrument training flight I landed with no indication of "down and locked" nose gear. The flight instructor exhibited good crm by telling me to fly the airplane while he diagnosed the problem. We landed and I held the nose up as long as possible. Nose gear held, turned out to be a buned out light bulb. It was a Cessna Cutlass aka 172 rg.
unreal. I was a paratropper in the army 67-70 and when ever we did a chopper jump it always scared the crap out of me as the pilots flew so close together. the pilots always seemed a bit squirely to me
My son is just starting his paratrooper training
They're squirrelly?! YOU are the one jumping out of a perfectly good helicopter, not them.
true but I was 18 at the time and my pay was $72.00 a month and jump pay wa s a additional $55.00 a month so it almost doubled my pay. sent half my pay home to my mother as she needed it. I would never jump out of a plane at my age now 74.@@Knick-Knack
@@Knick-Knack Technically, if you think a pilot is a bit squirrelly, then jumping out of the aircraft seems like a good idea (especially if you have the training/equipment).
I was thinking of all the fairly novice bomber pilots of WW2 who had to fly in close formation all the time. Those guys were incredible
Awesome channel, thank you!
100% avoidable and completely unnecessary. It kind of defies logic too, it's not like they could have done anything anyway??
I have seen planes land with no gear down and their odds were better than a mid-air collision...this obsessive attention to detail was to their detriment...I think one would rather take their chances with the gear than risk these high stakes maneuvers...there is a reason why safe separation distances are in place...
RIP to the deceased...
Yep you just lower your threshold speed with a glide approach and keep the flare for as long as possible and place the nose wheel down gently.
They already knew the gear was down, how could an in flight inspection tell the difference between down and locked or just down anyway? And if the gear wasn't locked, what else could be done other than try and land the plane anyway as well? If someone can tell me HOW the helicopter pilot could possibly tell if locked, please tell me!
What were they thinking. Over a busy area. Those poor kids who did nothing and paid the price for their foolish antics. You don't even have to be a pilot to instantly know that is anything but a good idea
Why did they bother flying over the tower to get them to look at the landing gear when they already knew the gear was down, and why bother getting the helicopter to look twice?
I dont think anyone, helicopter or tower, can see if the wheel is LOCKED. Just dumb. And tragic.
Honestly people overthink gear problems, just treat them as if they are an emergency. Doing the gear up procedure with functional gear will still give you a normal successful landing.
I bet the “good neighbor” policy was rewritten after.
Pilots train for these events, more complex planes use sims, but even a light-twin trains for gear malfunctions.
Sad fact this accident was 100% avoidable.
Great job capturing the facts.
All good neighbor policies, spoken and unspoken, inside and outside of aviation have been rewritten. There are no good neighbors anymore, everyone is out for themselves.
Introducing all these variables just for a nose gear indication is such poor judgement on all parties. Landing the Aerostar safely should have been within the crew's capabilities even with nose gear collapse.
Thanks!
Thank you for the support! 😁
A situation happened while I was working ground service for Command Airways in 1971 flying out of Duchess County , NY. The Company President was aboard a Beech-99 night flight and the pilot did not get a nose wheel lock light so we got a Colgan Airways plane to give our pilot a visual confirmation of nose wheel down status. Then the Airport Manager told me to radio our pilot and divert the flight to another airport. I told him I would not do that as the pilot is in charge of the situation as per FAA regs. Our bird landed safely .
Our brains or lack thereof are sometimes our biggest burdens.
An empty head is the heaviest burden to the bearer and to everyone else.
Not being a pilot & just thinking out loud, the plane will be landing no matter what else is reported to them & everyone in ready
for whatever happens. That said, no matter what the Helo sees it won't change a thing & that makes this an unneeded look at
the plane. I understand it was all done in a helpful intent but truly they already reported all they could the 1st time & the tower
did as well. That makes this something that won't change anything but then this happened. RIP & I hope the families found
solace in this tragic event. peace
This makes me think of the Eastern Airlines L1011 crash in the Everglades. The pilots lost situational awareness and crashed all because they were obsessed over a single landing gear indicator light. There was also a United DC8/707 that ran out of fuel dicking around with a gear indicator. Fixating on an issue you can’ fix in the air is not the best course of action. Run the procedures you need to and then attempt to land. Don’t fixate on the problem.
Sometimes the generous human need to be helpful turns into a competition that overwhelms common sense. There was no reason for the helicopter to be anywhere near the plane. Also, the approach of a helicopter and it's violent turbulence, very different from a small plane, should be seen as highly dangerous and unpredictable. The air traffic controllers could have intervened and put a stop go this fiasco beforehand.
Why did the tower allow it. They should’ve given a proximity warning and told them to separate . Stupid manoeuvre by both pilots.
The holes lined up as usual. Both pilots as reported bear responsibility for deciding to look closer at what was already confirmed.
But the final nail was the helicopter pilot not keeping clear of the plane. He was the only one that had eyes on the situation. The other pilot was only aware of the proximity of the helicopter and seems to have been doing everything he could to keep a stable flight path.
So sad for everyone and especially the children who perished and all the others that are related in any way.😢
Wow your new intro is very cool!! 👍👍
What a sad story. Great video, as always 😊
Thank you, glad you liked it. I do like the new intro :D
NO COMMENT.....WAIT, IF it could happen it will most likely happen!!! RIP to all and condolences to the families.
That’s a hard lesson to learn. Very sad to hear.
Approaching from the rear in the helicopter and below was absolutely ignorant on behalf of that pilot. Additionally getting that close for any inspection well it's beyond stupid😮....
As a pilot who landed a Seneca with no nose gear They should have just landed Did they do the push to test on the nose gear light
It’s like when my 86 year old mother goes waaaaaaay out of her way to try and help and just ends up causing more issues by “helping”. It was totally unneccesary.
My brother told me the Aerostar pilot was incompetent after this happened in 1991.
His job was flying the Aerostar too, but 4 nights a week on a scheduled airline, single pilot command, building good quality time.
And they way he explained the quirks of an Aerostar was gear warning light not down was just a common nuisance on Aerostars.
This was a brilliant video! Very interesting new material for me, I’d not given this aspect of close formation flying, any previous thought. A tragedy, but after one inspection it’s a pity they decided to try for a second time instead of just landing. It can’t have seemed a very safe plane to the Senator, if all this was after a previous false start to sort out a surging engine. I don’t know if they got into the air that time, but presumably the gear was OK if they did.
Such an avoidable tragedy. RIP all souls who perished 🙏
As you said, they could see visual cues, the only way to verify if it was locked was to land. It seems very poor decision making on the procedure and location to execute the exercise.
No, not the only way see my comment
Love your video, just a question, could you possibliby make a video about the USAF KC-135 Perth-Andover crash in New Brunswick, Canada?
just a suggestion, do what you like
A suggestion is always appreciated! I'll take a look.
thanks
I had two model helicopters, we were flying them in formation. When one of the helicopter was below the other, it literally pulled the other down. I suspect the same happened there, the helicopter pulled the airplane down.
That didn’t even occur to me. 🤔
Who ever gave the stupid order must be send to prison…
As a complete (almost) ignoramus in this particular type of incident, it sounds to me that one other safety regulation ought to dictate that aircraft utilizing very different principles of airfoil lift should never be within 500-1,000 feet of each other in any direction during flight due to the varying turbulences generated by them interacting BADLY.
Another incident that I really can't understand. Obviously, there was no proper communication between the pilots of the airplane and the chopper.
If you're that close, the pilots should have agreed on a procedure to gain a safe separation after the inspection (i.e. helicopter slows down and sinks, airccraft climbs and maintains speed and direction).
And the pilot of the helicopter should never have been that close to the other aircraft given his lack of experience with formation flying.
I also can't understand the reason why this close inspection of the landing gear was done in the firstt place.
The piot knew his front gear was down. That was the only thing that could be confirmed via a visual inspection from the outside, and that had been done already. The helicopter crew could not see whether the gear was locked or not, regardless how close they came.
It was a completely useless risk taken by both pilots, and it was a fatal one...
I cannot understand why both pilots made that risky move. There was nothig to be gained from it.
Should never have happened in my humble opinion, the pilot should have just lowered his threshold speed with a glide approach on short final and keep the flare for as long as possible and place the nose wheel down gently, he knew the crash teams where deployed.
How many visual inspections did they need? Wtf
I dont like to talk badly of the dead, they made their decisions and paid the ultimate price, the saddest part is hearing that children on the ground died as a result of the pilots stupidity. Those planes are more than capable of doing safe emergency landings so if he truly believed the landing gear was fauly he should have started an emergency landing procedure. Nobody would have died if they had followed their training and not this silly idea of using a helicopter to take a look, the tower would have offered the same advice during a low flyby before landing.
100%
Hi sir,just recently found your channel,I really enjoyed it,as you're military pilot,there's been a collision between 2 helicopter operated by Malaysian navy during a practice to celebrate 90 years of the nayv,and I believed there's some factor that can be related to this incident,in fact I watched this video after the collision came to my knowledge,I hope you'll consider looking into the incident as I hope to know your POV,love from Malaysia
Empty weight of a Bell is 7,000 lbs - Don't think it was an up set event. More like target fixation and the Piper headed down before it was clear... Flew formation rotary wing , Unless you've done it , Don't. Both crews lacked experience.
The helicopter pilot was trying to be a hero and the plane pilot was either people pleasing in letting the helicopter pilot inspect his nose gear up close in flight, which was completely unnecessary as tower had already confirmed it down and he could see himself the gear was down, or the plane pilot was anticipating criticism for landing without the nose gear locked and was trying to get as many witnesses as possible to say that the nose gear was indeed down. Either way bad call by all.
Tower too should not have let the helicopter do a visual inspection in flight when they already knew the nose gear was down. Why nobody told the helicopter pilot that 'we know the nose gear is down, we just don't know if it is locked in position' beggars belief. Especially the plane pilot letting an unnecessary and dangerous inspection go ahead when at best it would only reveal what he already knew to be the case.
3 visuals confirm front landing gear in the down position. Not partially down, but down. PA-60 pilot should have simply landed the plane as the front gear rotated down and backwards. The landing would push the gear further backwards and lock it in place if it wasn’t already locked. Lack of knowledge and inexperience. The perfect recipe for disaster.
More training after flight school - free - is a good way to avoid trouble - a bunch of known difficult scenarios are taught and how best to handle each.
I don't understand why the helicopter was so close to begin with. If your nose gear isn't down or locked there's nothing that can be done except to get the ground crews ready for an emergency landing.
We live in Bucks County PA (not to far from the accident location) and remember this well. As I got my pilots license later after this incident, I can't imagine why they would have a helicopter check to to see if the gear was down as the tower stated it was. No one would be able to tell if it was locked as the video states. Philadelphia (KPHL) has an excellent rapid response team so they should have just landed at the airport and the worst possible outcome would have been a collapsed nose gear landing. Problem, yes. The worst thing in the world, no. For that that 2 children died along with everybody else. It was horrible. That's the only thing I can say. Thanks for the good video and you got it 100% correct.
Thank you, the result is such a shame. As you say no more could be gained from the visual inspection from the helicopter. I can only think that the crew of the Piper aircraft were being extra cautious as the Senator was on board. Cautious was probably not the best term, but attempting to make sure they had tried 100% of the options available before commiting to the landing.
This reminds me of Flight 401, which crashed in the Everglades in 1972 due to a bad landing gear indicator bulb.
BRILLIANT what is the sim please used
Ridiculous. Just being unnecessarily clever for no justifiable reason.
Wow, what a waste, first thing I always think of in these situations is a faulty bulb or wiring. It was actually much easier to survive this than it was for everyone to lose their lives. All this needs is some turbulence and you have a disaster
I imagine you'd do as well of a job explaining the fiery incident of Pilgrim Airlines Flight 458.
Fixing the perceived problem eclipsing the “aviate” of “aviate, navigate, communicate”
I'm thinking the downwash from the chopper combined with altitude loss when the PA60 dipped his wing to turn caused the PA60 to descend into the chopper blades.
How close to you have to be to see if there is a problem with the gear. The tower could see easily from where he was, no need for the Helicopter to get anywhere near that plane.
A classic case of a pilot having too much to think.
The captain of the fixed wing sounds like a bit of a wally to me.
excellent video. Totally poor judgement on the pilots.
I'm not an aviator but as I understand it the nosewheel was severally confirmed as being down but not locked into place, presumably meaning that it could collapse on landing and cause damage and worse. In that case couldn't the small plane have gone ahead and landed and the fire appliances then spray the front end of the aircraft with foam to minimise the danger of sparks potentially posing danger of an explosion?
Landing with the nose gear not locked is not going to pose a big risk to anyone on board. Especially with two pilots you should even be able shut down the engines before nose wheel touchdown. There’s gonna be damage, maybe a runway excursion or in the worst case a fire after landing. But with fire crews standing by this would never warrant such a dangerous maneuver.
What they could have done instead would be to divert to an airport with a wider runway if one was in range.
Sadly this really was an unnecessary accident caused by misjudgment on part of both crews.
It also highlights the importance of evaluating offering help before doing so. It’s human to want to help an aircraft in distress in any way possible but you have to consider if you are actually helping and keep in mind a pilot in distress is more likely to accept an offer even if it is unreasonable, unnecessary or outright dangerous. And you have are always responsible for the safety of your own aircraft and the people on ground first, even if you are trying to help.