I Won't Be Buying Another Grand Seiko In The Future!
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- Опубліковано 28 лис 2021
- thetimetellershop.com
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I thought about getting an Omega Diver or a GS GMT...but I eventually decided to put that money in my Roth IRA and go with a Gshock that was 25% off at Macys. I want to retire early.
Bro it’s 5k loosen the reigns
🙌
You paid yourself instead of giving your money to someone else. Respect
Very smart move. I never understood why people are buying expensive watches when they aren't rich. Actually anything expensive for that matter. I appreciate great watches but you did the right thing, in my opinion. Have a nice one
buy some BTC and ETH I suggest
I work for Grand Seiko/Seiko. Let me tell you - next year you´re going to buy a Grand Seiko. The lineup is insane
I think a "black birch" spring drive would be the best thing ever... if you could pitch the idea ;-). Does GS post all their new models on their website, or is there a better way to get the information?
Can we have the SBGM221 with a spring drive movement please?
Bro the rumor mill is going wild for Grand Seiko's lineup next year.
Can anyone share more about next yr’s potential lineup? Thinking of pulling the trigger on the SGLA009 but don’t want any buyer regrets for such a company
I plan on visiting Tokyo or Osaka and getting my Grand Seiko there. However, where can I get it serviced in Seattle? Do I need to send it in?
Jory - Japanese businesses play a very long game. They tend to grow their market segments by ‘pushing’ from the bottom (look at the history & development of Toyota Corolla over the last 30yrs). If Seiko is ‘moving into’ Grand Seiko territory you can be assured that the long term strategy will be to ‘create distance’ between Grand Seiko & Seiko by moving Grand Seiko into even more ‘exclusive’ territory’. This is a classic Japanese business strategy & they have built & developed whole product categories doing it. Think Walkman, B & C class cars, video gaming…
Chinese are doing with their homages already Look at some of San Martin prices north of $300. There are inflationary pressures as well.
Bingo
Absolutely. Established Japanese companies think in terms of decades, not in quarters and financial years like US companies.
or Betamax?
Lexus has lower luxury value precisely because a lot of their cars look like Toyotas, despite a much higher price point
I actually bought an LX and a GS for about the same price and I'm not confused, both are worth every penny.
First off, the Seiko AND GS watches at the top of their lines are great watches -- but as a collector with a bit of snob in him I agree with what you're saying about the top of the line Seikos bumping up against GS from below. If none of these watches had a company name on them, I'd go for the Seikos as quickly as I would for the GS's. But, fortunately or unfortunately, they do -- and so for the collector with snob in him/her, it's that bit of "character flaw" that will impel him/her (me) to go for the GS over the Seiko virtually every time. But, man, some of those high end Seikos are real beauties . . . Thanks for the video JG.
Which one are you referring to?
High quality quartz is also acceptable
I think Seiko should get rid of the Presage name. Anything over $1000 should fall under the King Seiko name. And anything over $2500 should fall under Grand Seiko.
Excellent perspectives, Jory. I agree wholeheartedly and am just grateful that I purchased my watches (Japanese, Swiss and German) when excellent timepieces were still more affordable. As a consequence, all my watches (including Seiko) have gone up in value (not that I ever sell anything!). God bless.
The Seiko Presage Spring Drive is priced at $5000.. which is more than a non spring drive GS. Hence the movement is what drives the value, beyond that there is better finishing in a GS which adds another premium. Both the movement and finishing are material differentiators... Hence it's not just marketing for GS.
Another reason that I personally will not be buying Grand Seiko is the limited support here in the US.
At one point, I was told the US facility could handle all repairs, even on Grand Seiko and that I was required to mail my GS to them first. It took them several days to inform me that they had to mail my GS to Japan (to the tune of three figures in postage) but that they couldn't give me a repair estimate or even let me know if they could repair a simple crown stem. I told them to return my watch, and they mailed it back loose in a box without padding, resulting in several scratches. Their customer service rep's response was to mail it back to their US facility so that they could try to buff them out (probably by some heavy-handed dremel-wielding technician). I said no thanks and sold off my Grand Seiko pieces after that.
I wanted so badly to love Grand Seiko (and I've owned three), but for the new prices they're charging and lackluster customer service, you're better off with one of the Swiss brands.
The service and support is much better with Swiss brands, but you pay for it. Swiss brands still support really old watches, too. With Seiko, I think you're on your own with the antique models.
@@scdevon I agree. Unfortunately, this was one of their fairly recent Grand Seiko models. I was disappointed with the experience, especially considering how great an experience my dad recently had with Omega's and Breitling's service departments. Plus, I'm by no means a Swiss watch snob--at one point, my collection was probably half Seiko with everything from a Seiko 5 and SKX007 up to Prospex and Grand Seiko.
I also think the GS prices have crept to the point that they're on par with the Swiss, although for the moment, GS probably still has the best fit and finish in its price range.
Yay I'm in Asia
That is a great reason!!
I inherited a Jaeger LeCoultre watch ( late 60's ) , I kept it in a HSBC Bank safe deposit . Unfortunately the Bank was flooded 6 years ago , I was only informed to inspect my safe deposit box three months later. When I opened the box everything inside were still wet. The watch was not waterproof and I am sure the inside was rusted. The insurance company agreed to send it to Jaeger factory . The watch was totally rebuilt
, I am sure they have to specially produce parts of the watch. The repair costed £7000.00 . It is now like new.
You’re just over thinking it.
Grand seiko is a great brand. And we’re actually able to buy them.
It’s an odd concept, one being able to walk into a store and purchase a watch, but GS allows us to do this
He wasn't over thinking it, he just wanted to make some click baity content
Even the nicest Prospex LX isn’t close to a GS imo. The extra quality and finishing is quite clear when you compare side by side.
There's definitely a difference and since this video I did add the Prospex to my collection. They're different types of watches, one is dress so more refined and as you say, extra quality and finishing, the other is a tool watch that I'm not afraid to take diving. It's like comparing a Porsche Carrera to a farm tractor! Lol.
Exactly like you are saying, this is from my point of view useless video. The author of this video doesn’t know much about Grand Seiko if he compares them with Prospex
or Presage lines.
Totally wrong the LX has same quality but then better than grand seiko counterparts because grand seiko sports offerings are not good, grand seiko excels in dressy lines and not sports line and I know exactly since I own 5 of these pieces.
@@entroheat absolutely 👍! Would you still add LX to your collection if you have Rolexes 🤔. I have all three different size Seadwellers and I think I am getting mentally sick, as I still want a brown limited edition LX 🤷♂️.
Apparently because it’s got a spring drive, it has to be GS.🤣🤦🏽♂️
To me GS still seems way more worth it compared to most competing swiss watches. I decided a spring drive GS is going to be my first luxury watch purchase. Definitely seems worth it compared to something like omega or tudor
Depends on what you find important. Grand Seiko is a beautifully designed watch and their spring drive technology earned them absolute respect in the watch world. However it's not very "exciting" when you hold it in your hand. Some more ruthless critics called it "cheap feeling" and "boring" to look at under the hood meaning, they don't find the technology visually impressive.
While this is subjective and GS is undeniably an amazing watch, Swiss watches like Rolex Omega etc feel very premium compared to GS, they have more heft to them and they really shine when you put them on.
I will not get a spring drive. It seems little different from a quartz or eco drive. If I want a solid mechanical watch, I don’t want electronics inside at all. Maybe it’s just me.
I just bought a SBGE269. It’s absolutely stunning and worth every penny of $6k. That dial! It’s so much nicer than my Omega for similar money.. but I do love my Omega too. I also spent $660 on a Prospex SPB119 and it’s also quite a nice watch at a decent price. For the longest time I was anti-Seiko (because I’d only bought the lower end models sold at places like Sears, thinking those $200 models defined Seiko) but my mind has been changed. Mercedes-Benz makes both Maybachs and economy A-class models.Two opposite ends of the spectrum, and we don’t just write off Mercedes because they have some cheaper, lower-quality models. So why can’t Seiko address the entire market from end to end? If Rolexes were available and sold at retail pricing, then sure, that would be the better investment, but I don’t think I’d enjoy the Rolex more than my Grand Seiko.
I think the higher end Seiko are for Japanese people, not for foreigners. Your point where you said "why would i buy a regular Seiko, if the price is about the same as a Grand Seiko". Japanese people don't care about that, that's why in Japan you can buy a $500 converse that looks exactly the same as a $50 converse without a single distinguishing visual cue, but build with much higher quality. because people DON'T want to show off here.
Exactly. And GS is not even Seiko's top line of watches - that distinction belongs to Credor.
It’s the same reason why Japan doesn’t have Lexus. Because people aren’t embarrassed to drive a car with a Toyota emblem on it
@@dannymartial7997 there are Lexus’s in japan now
I agree that bringing the GS technology to the Seiko line was a mistake. Putting a Spring Drive into a Seiko doesn’t elevate the Seiko, it only cheapens the Grand Seiko. It would be like if Lexus took the engine from the LFA and brought it to the Toyota Avalon.
Very true - Orient (and Orient Star) have an amazing value proposition.
Alba also if you are ok with non dive rated quartz watches.
Yeah I think they are taking over where seiko used to shine in the $2-400 range for mechanical watches at that price all around citizen has wiped the floor with the competition I have better bracelets on my $200 pro masters than even on my high dollar seikos like my Tuna or mm300 your not getting a Seiko with a milled Clasp under $1000 anymore
I agree with you that the lines are blurred. It's weird seeing spring drive in the prospex and presage lines at the upper end. It's hard to justify the price when I know the finishing in grand seiko is better, the movements are more regulated etc. That said honestly I'm happy with HAQ in GS watches.
Spring drive is the same accuracy, definitely in hi beat and regular beat but grand seiko both same accuracy apparently you are not aware of that.
@@entroheat if you look at the SD in non GS though the accuracy and finishing are not quite on par. Honestly if I could get the same accuracy in a $1800 presage as in a $5K GS other than finishing what's the point of the GS?
@@icalexander won’t be same accuracy as presage spring drive is not 1800$ l, none of the spring drives come that cheap but if they do why not what I refer to is seiko sports line that seiko not grand seiko is known for I rather get the hig ly end seikos than grand seikos
Spring drive started in a Seiko. Just saying. It was never a GS exclusive…
I got my GS in Japan at a tax-free shop and saved 35% over US list price. Exchange rate helped a lot.
Those Prospex LX models and those enamel dial springdrive Presages are expensive like GS because they really do have expensive movements and craftmanship. But that cannot wear the GS badge because their styling and case designs don't fit anywhere in the Grand Seiko collection. Look particularly at the hands and hour indices. There's no GS DNA there.
“You guys are cheaper than therapy..”! Absolute mad respect for that statement! 😂
TT If you can’t see the difference just buy Seiko, but it tells a lot about what you can see and can feel on hi-end watches.
with an interview with the new GS CEO he said "Seiko has become a brand of no clear identity," Naito told the FT. "'Everything for everybody' ended up being 'everything for nobody.' That has to be changed." well spot on, and happy Hanuka
Can you imagine paying 5k for a seiko that had a misaligned chapter ring?😂
What's really funny is that if a Rolex comes out of the factory with some dial defect or something like that, it would actually be considered special and it will cost even more than a regular Rolex watch that doesn't have any issues. It's crazy how things work.
@@Foxtrot-jr5qu how about paying extra for a high beat movement which accuracy is similar if not worse then a normal one?
I paid 5 grand for an omega aqua terra with dust on the dial. Sent it to the omega service center to fix it, got it back 3 weeks later with a serious defect on the dial.
Got a brand new aqua terra, and that one had dust on the dial.
But let’s just pile on seiko some more……🤷♂️
@@matthewhill3996 yeah! my Aquaterra worldtimer had a huge thread on the dial you could see with the naked eye on delivery, and I had to send it back. thank god it came back ok and keeps -1 sec a day.
@@Foxtrot-jr5qu
Like the double 3 explorer?.
Grand Seiko is a weird brand for sure - I love what they do on many levels, but like you said, the line between Seiko and GS is being blurred by their unorthodox pricing strategies - that being said, some of my absolute favorite references in the GS catalogue (sbga375, sbgw231) can be bought at incredible prices
Having worked in marketing for big consumer brands for 20+ years, I can state that the *dreaded "brand blurring" is happening everywhere* nowadays. It's a symptom of many things, but mostly it boils down to two... well, actually one: in the olden days, there were founders and owners and later their heirs. These people usually understood the brands they had created very, very well. And they were not in for the maximum profit but for the long-term success and the steady returns... enter 3rd & 4th generation heirs, investors and private equity firms: they are driven by greed and greed alone. "Milking the brand" (and thus price increases) are THE tools for them as they certainly don't have the long-term perspective. Ultimately, it's a sign of a "mature" brand that has started its descend. The brand might survive for another 20-30 max. but then it will die.
My perspective is from the manufacturing sector and the brands, many if not most, had to sell to foreign entities. As Walmart found, the consumer is not willing to pay even a 5% premium to have the goods made in the USA. Initially the brands farm out the work to other entities. Give it about 20 years or so these foreign contracted makers can make the same goods as good if not better and at a lower price.
What are you thoughts on Rolex. Does it all collapse eventually ?
You've only been in marketing for 20+ years, how do you know the brand is going to die after 20-30 years because of things like that?
@@ntag411 Its seldom about consumers, Its all about busness and their cost. I am more beliving the economy is about social change than economics. We are at 7% inflation yet prices are at 30% inflation. Only because people buy without being consumer wise. Idiots paying hundreds of dollars in Adjusted market value on vehicles just because they no longer have the savy or patience to wait out the bad times like our fathers would teach us to in the 70s. This economy is Socially driven by greed and Hiring studies to understand Social Phenom. Lets call it stupid people out-spending their lifestyle.
@@davek6854 Totally agree that this is an important factor! ... but also, privately owned companies can adjust better to changing times compared to publicly traded ones. Older companies typically lose first their independence - to then enter a phase of cash generation through "brand inflation" - then they find that they lack the funds and the mobility to innovate/adjust to keep up with emerging brands who also have the advantage of smaller cost overheads...
I wanted a Seiko Astron, but the price was a little too high. I was considering saving for it. I found a Seiko Coutura with almost the same specs, so I purchased that instead. This supports the idea that you can get a good value from Seiko by going down it's product line.
It's even worse when you can buy watches from other brands with Seiko movements for cheaper than you can buy a seiko watch with the same or similar movement
The line will become less blurred as Grand Seiko drops some of its lower priced quartz models and increases pricing on new and existing models. I purchased my SBGA413 (cherry blossom spring drive) a few months ago for $6300. GS have recently increased the price to $6600. Still what I consider a value proposition and bang for the buck.
@japanwatchconnection Truth. I forget who said it….“Retail is for suckers”
- Homer Simpson??
@japanwatchconnection Where do you get these discounts? For the.2019 Spring there are waiting lists.
@japanwatchconnection Thanks for your reply. Perhaps you have more leverage than I. I usually make the decision based on who will allow returns at no cost if I don't like the watch in the metal.
Yeah, some of their quartz watches are just… odd. That said some of them are fantastic, like the SBGX343, so I hope they keep some of them
@@skzion2 pretty sure it’s BS. I work for an AD and their are no discounts given on the popular models
It’s nice to watch you my friend. My father passed last night and your energy just makes me crack a smile
I’ve been feeling this way too lately; so much (too much?) crossover! I’ve definitely been going back and forth between buying another GS - and I agree Seiko/GS has been undervalued for way too long - but are they pricing them to what they’re actually worth now, or beyond their worth (since they’re going beyond many mainstream luxury Swiss brands)? They’re definitely playing the game hard right now and taking advantage of their ability to do everything in-house at a ridiculously huge capacity. I just hope they don’t go beyond the point of no return (i.e. when the Rolex demand eventually drops and prices across the board begin to level-off).
The problem is they also are bad at naming their watches. They make so many different models and dial colors. It's hard to keep track of them. I wish they would focus on maybe 10 of their best models, and focus on improving each one.
I believe Seiko deserves to command a higher price for their mid range upwards - they make a higher quality product nowadays - they have a longer history than Rolex and, well, cmon, it’s Seiko - huge brand equity that hasn’t been tapped into enough - value end is a Seiko 5 or Orient
As an owner of a Snowflake (which I love) I was a little pissed and confused when the Presages came out. I had a WFT moment. A spring drive in a Seiko. What are they doing?
dont worry. your snowflake much have better dial and finishing than that presages.
I think it’s great. Doing what you don’t like appears to gave them a lot of success. There are many reasons why Seiko is the greatest watch brand, one of them is doing exactly what they do and not what a few watch nuts say.
I have a LE Grand Seiko that I love that I doubt I'd ever give up, and so I'd like to say that I don't need another one and also won't be buying GS in the future, BUT, I just know they're going to come out with some amazing dial or some other amazing set of features, probably in a limited edition, and I'm going to totally be able to justify getting another. You know it's true for you too.
I don't think the fault lies with Grand Seiko there, I think it lies with Seiko. I think the higher end Seiko range is definitely experiencing a brand crisis. If it were up to me, I'd cap Seiko prices right around where Grand Seiko prices begin (the 2-3k range). That's similar to what Rolex does with Tudor (until recently with some offerings a bit, which also has me confounded) and it's led to Tudor being super identifiable and distinguishable.
All that being said, I think Orient is way overrated. I don't think their finishing, movement quality, and designs measure up at all.
For $150???? Orient is awesome. Perhaps you'd rather have a Daniel Wellington instead???🤣
@@stevec5465 I have a $150 Orient and it is bland AF and the movement winding feels like I'm grinding stones. It's the first watch in my collection that I stopped wearing entirely, way sooner than anything else I own. It also wears way too big for its style. And it's made in China anyway, so you're not even paying for better factories.
Obviously it's still pretty good for an automatic but for that price I'd rather either get another Casio, or pay an extra $30-40 for a bezelless Seiko 5KX on sale (which I also own--the DressXK is damn sweet). What's great about the Seikos is they feel satisfying to wind and wear even at the lower end.
@@sylinmino I own 5 Orient, 9 G-shock, 1 Omega, 2 Timex. Obviously not going to mistake the Orient for the Omega movement. But very accurate and very robust.
@@stevec5465 obviously so, but the fact that my 3 Seikos all have LEAGUES more satisfying movements, better wearing dimensions, better finishing, and less bland designs than my Orient do speak volumes to me and my opinion of them.
I don't need the Orient to match my Grand Seiko or Omega or Cartier stuff--but I'd like it to justify its price and for me, my $20 Casio is more alluring of a wear than my $150 Orient. Which is a problem.
If you love Orient then more power to you. I'm just saying why they're not for me. And also my theory as to why so many big watch enthusiasts who talk up Orient don't actually own any themselves.
It sounds silly to blame Seiko and not Grand Seiko when they are the same company... But then again they probably are different divisions that don't talk to each other.
How many watch brands are selling their watches for the same or lower prices than they were 2 years ago? Seen any cheap Rolex's or Pateks or AP's lately?
Your videos are great Jory… when other reviewers have morphed their channels into a montage of ‘hey look at much disposable money I’ve got and how many new watches I’m buying’ or… ‘follow me as I buy a whole lot of watches… ‘ YOUR videos are educational and I think clearly from a place of deep interest in watches generally speaking. Your videos are just pure fun and are also super interesting
Still haven’t seen a 9F in a SEIKO, so I still intend to pursue a GS. Amazing movement, superb finishing; no question.
I really like your approach to this video. You never say "No one should buy a Grand Seiko because XYZ", you stick to "Here are some reasons why I personally don't want to buy from either brand currently", which I resonate well with. I totally agree the lines are blurred now with the recent Seiko releases. But I would still be willing to buy a GS if I find one that I love. The only way the line blurring has affected me is that I just simply wouldn't buy the $5k Seiko.
My Seiko Diver is over 20 years old. I love the watch but am amazed at how much they cost new today. I wear it as a work watch and it has taken some abuse so I'm debating over having the bezel and crystal replaced. I'm sure the tune up will cost me more than I paid for the watch back when I was young. It also loses a couple of minutes a month and could probably use a service. I still love it. Your rant was great. Carry on.
As a watch collector myself
1. Grand Seiko is beautiful but Grand Seiko expensive
2. Please stop trying to buy Rolex we don't have enough of them and eventually getting one will not only come with a crazy price tag but a battle to the death
3. The best watch collecting advice is the one that The Time Teller has been giving always please don't do it spare yourself the suffering I just got a new watch and my grandparents went on a rant of how many bills that I already paid off I could of paid off with the money I just spent on a watch please don't do it.
4. SUBSCRIBE TO THE TIME TELLER!!
5.Finally. Beautiful women will not gush over you over a cool watch more than likely it'll be other single dudes who thought the same way
I’ve got a Grand Orient with a “sprong drive” movement on order…
Honsestly, the more Seiko increases their prices, the more I see Tudor and Nomos as...uh...values.
Yep. There is no point in buying a Grand/Seiko when you can buy a Swiss or German equivalent. They made my collecting much easier.
Absolutely, when you have that amount of $$ the value prop to the buyer, why GS or even Seiko. Just save for the one that scratches that itch haha. Metas Omega and Tudor become why not.
The last 3 Tudor ADs I've been to were stocked like rolex, nothing but crap in stock, all the popular / sought after watches are nowhere to be found.
@@dustindodge5974 this is true. in the couple months since this vid, i checked out a Tudor AD and all they had were Royals.
My knowledge about the Watch Industry is limited, but I would say that it is Orient"s fault! Yes, since Seiko acquired Orient, maybe they are trying to leave the more budget friendly and yet great value watches under the responsibility of the Orient brand.
And yet there are some quite expensive Orients... And where does that leave Orient Star?
Orient isn't owned by Seiko, per say. Orient is owned by the Seiko Espon Corporation. Orient and Seiko do have the same top level ownership, but the two companies are functionally separate and distinct. Orient, in particular, falls under the Epson branch and uses their own in house movements.
I think they are trying to do exactly what you are saying, blur the lines. I own a GS and I own an MM300 which has supposedly a caliber equal to GS and to be honest the seiko 8L35 movement is better then most so is it worth paying the money for a quality movement, I think it has really depends on you. But you do have a very valid point.
You are totally on point with this video. They should have kept one as a value brand and one as a luxury brand!
For me, a reliable time piece must go wherever i go, participate all activities, keep functioning and never give up before i do. There are many occasions when being able to gauge accurate timing is so critical that life depends on it.
Grand Seiko are just too fancy and delicate to be considered an all purpose time piece. And if fancy polishing is one is after, there are many other makes that offers this type of decorative watches.
Unless one lives a very sedentary and inactive lifestyle or don't mind taking off their Grand Seiko whenever they participate in any slightly serious activities, the Grand Seiko finish is bound to be damaged and subjected to wearing in no time. It is just not a very practical watch. Unless it spends more time on a watch winder than on a wrist.
A watch is meant to tell and keep time regardless of the environmental conditions. It needs to be as robust as possible. This is actually the forte of the Spring Drive.
Spring Drive is the single most innovative technology from Seiko that stands out and makes these timepiece unique.
I agree with your view.
And you are absolutely right in saying, Seiko Prospex model that features Spring Drive mechanism is the best value for money proposition. You don't need a Grand Seiko to enjoy this accuracy and robustness.
And in many Seiko Prospex designs, titanium casing and wristband are incorporated. Plasma coated synthetic diamond for extra durability. The bright luminous dial and hands are also much more legible than the Grand Seiko designs. In this regard, it is actually substantially better than Rolex.
Also, it is important to understand what seperates spring drive from the kinetic drive.
Once you understand this, you would start to appreciate what makes spring spring drive so special and unique. More importantly what makes spring drive so robust that a special version of spring drive been featured in the Seiko Spacewalk SPS005 and the Seiko Landmaster Miura Everest Limited Edition SBDB007.
For a piece of equipment that needs to venture into space not only does it need to be extremely robust, it can handle the vacuum conditions, extreme temperature swings and also high radiation levels, just to name a few obvious challenges.
If you are into cameras, check out the space version of the Nikon F3 and find out what modifications required on a standard F3 to prepare it for the space mission.
What is not so obvious is under these conditions it can cause components required to implement energy storage, such as battery and/or capacitors to fail (explode/leak etc). Spring Drive has none of that. In fact Spring Drive doesn't rely on electrical energy storage, instead Spring Drive derives its energy in real time from the potential energy stored within the spring. This is where the ingenious part is. Because the released energy is so tiny, Seiko took literally decades to develop an ultra low power Integrated circuit to make Spring Drive a reality. You can read about its development history...
I am actually a very lucky owner of a SBDB007. It is an extremely rare watch, only 300 ever made. And even for a cosmopolitan city like Hong Kong renowned for selling luxury watches around the world, Hong Kong has only been allocated 2 units. And i had one of these two, many thanks to my resourceful friend living in Hong Kong and their connection network. It wasn't cheap as the price is comparable to my Rolex Sea Dweller. But it now supersedes my Rolex and has become my daily watch. Rolex is my backup. This is how good the Spring Drive is.
Because these watch are built to the extreme standards, the careful selection and calibration of components from the bin of electronics, the real life accuracy is mind blowing. My unit only shows a +2 secs in 6 months of continuous usage. I would be luckily if my Rolex achieves this accuracy in a day.
In addition the full titanium construction, all surface is further protected by plama coating of a layer of synthetic diamond, making it highly resistant to scratches. So it is a very practical watch as well. Unlike the Grand Seiko finish, which is easier to scratch than the 904L stainless of the Rolex.
In summary, the main highlight of spring drive should be the extreme robustness of spring drive. And not a lot of watch reviewers even know about this.
If an owner is after fancy polish and finish, Grand Seiko is an option, but don't expect that premium paid on Grand Seiko to hold in resale value. It is similar to owning a new Lexus, once it leaves the showroom, expect immediately 50% depreciation. This is why Rolex is in a much better position when it comes to appreciation in your investment. And it is reliable too. My Sea Dweller ran without any issues over 4 decades. 904L is also easier to be repolished to restore its factory finish. Just that it is now superseded by the Seiko Spring drive for its robustness, accuracy and practicality.
And my final point is, to any knowledge watch enthusiast, they immediately picked up that my SBDB007 is something unique and special, they immediately recognised it is Spring Drive driven. No further explanation required. 🤭😊👍 Some even know about how it was specially designed and made for Mr Miura for his Everest ascent in a remarkable age of 80.
Purchaser of random-ass relatively expensive JDM Seikos here. The answer to your question is that if you like the high end Prospex or Presage, buy that. You'll be fine. They actually hold their value pretty well so long as you get them at a decent price in the first place. My most expensive watch ever is the most ridiculous Seiko ever. For a few years (2008-12 maybe?). They offered a kinetic powered Marinemaster. So they charged Marinemaster prices for a movement that would normally show up in watches that top out at maybe $800. MSRP was $2500, I believe. I bought one used in 2016, and held a little party for my money and we each said our goodbyes to each other because obviously we'd never see each other again right? I was willing because I''m that one weirdo who likes kinetic better than anything else (at least so long as I can't afford springdrive) and it's also in polished titanium which is a big deal to me. Well every so often, I'll go "how long before I can afford a Grand Seiko Diver?" and check the going rate for like all the watches I own. Shockingly, in 2021, I'd guess the going rate for my kinetic direct drive Marinemaster (a watch you could tell no one other than me would ever buy) appeared to be around $1800. New, the MSRP was $2500, but I'm sure they could be had for $2k at the time. So they're about $200 below the new cost for the weirdest arguably least desirable expensive Seiko ever. 3 times I've bought weird JDM Seikos got out my hanky and waved bon voyage to my $$, cause I accepted there was no way I'd ever see it again, only to be shocked to later discover I could actually pretty much sell the watches for what I bought them for if I wanted to. The thing about Seiko is, no the brand name will not impress like a famous Swiss brand. But there is enough of a cult following for them that SOMEONE will know your specific model and be willing to pay for it. While the value proposition is being diluted somewhat now, the truth is that if there's a Seiko you really like, "Grand" or regular, you'll be fine so long as you shop around and get a good price. As for whether it says "Grand" on the dial, who cares? Most ppl will still probably assume a Tissot is more expensive. You're (presumably) buying these things for you, not to impress other ppl.
Great video Jory.
Imo - cap Seiko at $2000. Start GS @ $3000.
Condense the calendar of Seiko.
Condense the special editions into a simultaneous release of a special edition of each core Seiko model annually. With the special editions - don't have 10 dial variations per watch. One special edition. One unique piece per model. That makes it special - 50 special editions of the same model does not make it special.
The simplified strategy with a roughly 1k buffer between Seiko and GS would be the way to go.
There has to be a fiscal incentive - whether dissuasion or persuasion based upon cost, quality, prestige - to pursue one over the other.
Example of who does this price differential well - Tudor and Rolex. A Tudor is not meant to replace/outcompete a Rolex, and a Seiko should not replace/outcompete a GS.
You can have similar purpose watches (ie black bay 36 and explorer 36) - but everyone understands their difference and recognizes they are not direct equivalents, although in some ways similar. It is fine to have lower tier pieces that share SOME elements - but you don't see the same finishing and movement and overall quality at 3000 as you do at 6500, and that's correct.
As a consumer, I want a hierarchy defined which justifies my materialistic purchase, especially a luxury purchase like a watch. I want to see a delineation. That creates rationality amongst brands. This creates tiers. The issue of Seiko's overlap is that it hurts GS in the eyes of collectors and persons new to the brand.
That's my long winded perspective. Thanks again.
Good vid! I purchased the hat and wore it to the Carribean on on a cruise: it didn't work. I came back with. New Tudor Black Bay 58 Silver 925! Great watch. Keep up the good work!
just buy Citizen and be happy
Orient star is SOLID
beautiful movements, dials and finishes without having to worry about the seiko-price problem
Seiko just has waaaaaaaaay too many watch models at this point and that devalues the brand and creates confusion.
Excellent video, Jory! It maybe just me, but I've noticed this kind of price hiking going on across the board with many brands. Yet there are still great watches at great prices out there. I would buy a Chris Ward, before I would consider a Rolex or Grand Seiko, in fact, I could probably get 3 excellent in-house movement auto's, that are extremely well made, higher end Wards for the price of a Grand Seiko or low end Rolly. And, I'm talking watches with unique designs and awesome specs.
Have you seen the Ward C1 Moonglow (retailing for 1,995 USD), that's my new grail watch! My point being, I could buy 3 or 4 Moonglows for the price of one lower end Rolex or Grand Seiko. It just doesn't make sense to spend so much money on a watch, just to have the name on your wrist, unless your rich! And in all honesty, I could easily afford a Grand or a Submariner. but I just don't like getting ripped off. Thanks again for a great video.
Interesting video on the torture of collecting. I’m an investment manager. I have one watch, well two, the other is an Apple Watch which is very useful. It’s the same with all my 6-7 figure clients. None of us are collectors. We collect investment funds instead of watches, and it’s less headache and I think for us more gratifying😂
You have one watch friend
I’ve purchased two GS (first an SBGA231 and then sold it and bought an SLGA001) in about the past 18 months. Ive purchased 7 Seikos in that same time. On both of the GS, i got substantial discounts off msrp (20-30% (edited)) so it has me wondering if the price hikes are just to give the dealers something to haggle with?
I do agree with your comments about the blur between the various Seiko sub-brands. Im not a marketing guy, but I cant help but to think this is bad. The popularity of GS now is higher than it has ever been and Sekio should be leveraging and build that by more specifically defining GS, not blurring it with high end Seikos. Its a missed opportunity.
How did you get 40% off the slga001?
@@ambroseathello
I would really like to know as well.
I bought my SLGA001 from an AD shortly after it was released and the AD had a 4 day promo stand in a department store and gave a limited time discount it added up to about 7% off MSRP. I really doubt you got 30 to 40% discount on that model.
@@thaiexcellencemobile5816 I bought iit in August for $8500 - sorry just did the math and that is only a 23.4% discount vs the $11,100 msrp. I just did the math in my head (wrongly) when writing my post. The SBGA I paid $4500 for vs the $7100 msrp - so 37% - the key is to not buy then when they first come out (the SLGA001 was first released in limited quantities in May 2020 and more in ‘Nov 2020).
@@kelechinobi3085 see my response below
Hi Jory, interesting analogy of the differences and similarities between Grand Seiko and Seiko and the good and bad between choosing either of them.
"You guys are cheaper than therapy." Finally it all makes sense 😅😂🤣
😂😂😂
I hate to admit… darned it! You’re right man. I had this gut feeling this past year or two- and you articulated it quite well. Happy Hanukah🙏🏻
You do have to wonder what the company strategy is. It used be premium materials and exclusive movements that made up the Grand echelon. I guess it’s all about dials and extra finishing. I’m finding it hard to step out from Prospex LX.
I'm watching this right after buying my first GS, the SBGF027. Overall, I'm just excited. I do want a spring drive in the future, or the heritage, but that's about it. I wouldn't pay more than that. There's way too many other cool watches on my radar. I'm just glad I can get something that's "luxury" and also quartz.
I understand your point, why would you spend over 2k for a spring drive Seiko when you can buy a 600 dollar Seiko with spring drive? I think Seiko should only put their SD movement in the Grand Seiko brand only.
lol, the seikos with spring drive is US$3000+. the guy in the video doesnt know what is he talking about.
Jory, don’t get stressed out about GS or S. Who are you trying to impress? At the end of the day, they are just watches. And from what I’ve seen, you have a nice collection.
Its his hobby....why wouldn't he be stressed? 🤦
Well second hand ones are the given value proposition. I bought my dresswatch SBGJ217 new but it dropped about 20% in value in 1.5 years (Chrono24) so thats good value for someone to pick up.
I bought the ghost alpinist put it on a Zulu strap and stopped...just stopped - it's not perfect but the desire to buy anything else simply evaporated. Hooray free at last.
Interesting video but I don’t think there is a “placement” issue within the Seiko group as is being suggested, at least not in the international market.
Seiko and GS overlap in prices by about £3k in the uk. That’s very similar to Tissot/Longines and Omega. In the international market GS and Credor only overlap at the very top end (over £50k) - this is slightly different in the JDM. The overlap between Omega and Breguet is much greater.
Orient sits below Seiko and overlaps the latter by at most £1k.
Seiko, GS and Credor share movement technologies but differ in some very important ways. Seiko are generally machine assembled and finished, like a Rolex incidentally (important exceptions are the enamel dials which are made by others - more on that later).
GS are generally hand assembled and finished on the movements and cases. Automatic GS are also rigorously tested (edit) and certified. As far as I can tell the movements are most likely machine decorated though.
Credor for the international market are hand built and finished with very exquisitely decorated movements, a result of their collaboration with PD on the Credor studio.
All this is the reason why a Seiko SD diver (edit) costs £3k less than an “equivalent” GS SD diver, for instance.
Note:
Someone mentioned Spring drive being a GS technology being mass marketed via Seiko. Not true. SD was developed by Seiko and first used in Seiko and Credor production models in JDM. GS use came 2 years later.
Edit:
Forgot to say re:enamel dials. Credor enamels are made in-house.
Following you from Europe. Great videos with good humour and to the point critics. Continue like that.
I picked up an Orient open heart blue resin dial with a mother of pearl look too it a few months back, it has a nice looking day/night complication on it and I have really been enjoying it. It didn't cost much and keeps great time as well.
Ive owned quite a few orients. High end orients too. They are my favorite watch company besides omega. Orient is the dark horse . Their watches are such high quality made an just as good as all the other brands out there. Sometimes there designs are out of wack. I do not like every orient watch but when they do it right they do it RIGHT. I own an wear one watch as of today. The orient star heritage. Have it on a engineer bracelet. Will never let this watch go. Orient gives us what no other watch company will ever do.. Very high quality watches for much less than others. People wanna ignore or lie an be in denial that some of orients high end watches can compete with the swiss or even grand seiko. Those people are just asshats an fools. The orient triton for example is a gem. An made just as highly built as a 3 to 4,000 dollar swiss watch. Than you have some royal orients that would shit on alot of so called high end swiss watches from longines, oris, etc. Dont forget about the orient saturation diver. Which was a big watch but its a diver. Still under priced an disrespected while being better than oris an longines etc. An many other high end orient watches that can be talked about but you get the point. Too many sheeps.... An followers in the watch world... Glad im not one of them......
It’s funny because I find no reason to buy a GS now that I own a new Marinemaster 300 considering it’s made by GS in the grand seiko factory. This video really resonated with me
I was two weeks ago im a Seiko boutique and had exactly the same impression as 3T. I handled the new European Grand Seiko time only dress watch editions (to die for, but EUR4,800), but was equally impressed by a Seiko Presage for €399 (except that the Seiko Presage had a date). Seiko / Grand Seiko definitely need to clearly distinguish their offerings.
@Foxy You obviously don't work in a business setting in Europe.
@Foxy lol
If you are equally impressed by a GS and a Seiko then it probably means you can't judge a watch's quality well in person and in hand and has nothing to do with them distinguishing their offerings further.
@Foxy so says the one who assumed "Nobody in Europe"
I don’t think I could ever spend that amount on any one watch. I am currently addicted to the Citizen Marvel and Star Wars watches with a Mandalorian on the way I got for $170 on sale. If I could I would go with a Seamaster or Pro Pilot X, or one of the new Oris Aquis.
The solid advice is Don’t Start Watch Collecting. I’m currently thinning the herd. Daily, weekend x 2, and considering a dress watch…but not sure if I should even bother.
Straws collectors are the happiest people on the planet. The most expensive pink and purple straw costs as of now $0.9 on Amazon.
Bro stick to the Seiko Monster they are fun, cool, bold, and priced ok! BAM💥problem solved. Your welcome🥳
The issue is that at each level, or price point, there is a more desirable Swiss watch, with a longer history, etc.
Granted, when you get into technology to technology, they don’t take a back seat to anyone….yet if you have to explain where your GS is on the pecking order, you have ‘lost.’…and while anecdotal, I have gone to two ‘watchtime’ events (fairly high level), and no one, was wearing GS.
Lange, Patek, GO, Zenith, Vacheron, even microbrands were present. Not GS.
It makes me think what I read about Lexus and Infiniti years ago. They expanded the luxury segment, they did not take anyone away from buying a BMW…I know there are GS owners out there, they just aren’t ‘watch people’…
I bought (or overpaid for) a Grand Seiko because I wanted the superior case and movement finishing. I think it is a buying habit I picked up from my father who would always buy the best within his means even if it is not the best value proposition. He bought a Rolex Day-Date in 1967 because that was the best Rolex at the time and it was USD $850 in cash from over four months of wages. In the 1990s, he paid the premium for the Honda Accord EX because the LX and DX were inferior. Even today when I am considering a Tudor Black Bay 58, I have to explain to the ghost of my father that I much prefer the aesthetic of it over that of a Rolex Submariner but I don't think he believes me. I might need to put his Rolex in front of his photo on the family altar if I ever buy a Tudor.
He would have bought the Rolex 6538 which sold for $92,000 at Christie's auction house because he accepts no substitutes.
@@JinKee He would have bought the best watch within his means and wanted me to do the same. If you are referring to the Rolex 6538 that was on auction at Christie's about ten years ago, my father had neither the social status, life skills, savings, enough shifts in his job as a cook, or access to a time machine in 1967 to travel into the future to bid on that watch. Also like me, he never wanted a Submariner so he would not have purchased it.
Finally, someone like me😂
Rolex are operating the same model as Seiko I bought an Explorer about 30 years ago and it cost about a tenth of the price of my then new car now an Explorer cost more than half of a similar car. They charge more because they can. I wouldn't want a Submariner either
If he bought an Accord he'd be ok with you getting the top of the line Orient.
I own the Spring Drive Tuna. It's virtually a Grand Seiko since, back when it came out this was one of only two watch models that came in the regular Seko line since they were sports watches. SD Tuna was made at the GS factory buy GS artisans, yet it could not get the designation of GS simply because it's a saturation diver so it had to fall into the MarineMaster line. Probably the best deal to get into a Spring Drive powered watch. Anyway, my point, yes they have some SD movements in the regular Seiko line up but I don't feel that it takes anything away from the GS line since they only put these in a specialty watch and due to the model and it's intent of use, can't fall into the GS line. GS makes one the best watches in the world now. Finishing and attention to detail is above the Swiss... for less money and availability. What Rolex ADs are doing these days is ridiculous. I started my higher end watch journey with a Rolex SeaDweller. I did not have to put myself on a list, kiss ADs butt, just to get the watch. any sports SS Rolex model, with the exception of the Daytona, AD either had them in stock or if they didn't they could get you one in about a week, max two weeks. Anyway, unless I roll into an AD and they have one for sale and I don't have to play their stupid game, I'd get Rolex. but since the market is where it's at, no thanks. Far better, more interesting watches from other brands. German and Japanese manufacture are killing it. I see the value in a GS. don't mind that some of the tech has trickled down to the less expensive models like in regular Seiko. Finishing is of different level now so...
Keep it up! Informative and entertaining
at the end of the day its a seiko .resale value is less than half if you can even find a buyer.
Well, Jory, I now know what I'm NOT getting you for Christmas..
KoRn Greatest Hits!
I do love my old Grand Seiko. But I wouldn't be put off from buying a Prospex diver with a Springdrive. For me, as we would say in Ireland, it's all "Grand"...😉
My justified mind says - I like the quartz Grand Seikos (please don't get squeamish). Presage is the best brand for interesting dress-casual watches.
The finishing of the inner mechanism is different as within GS, it is such minimise friction for the benefit of higher accuracy.
I am thinking to buy the the Seiko spb239. I find the watch almost perfect and I love the size.. What do you think about, and the price?! Thanks!
In my mind Rolex has sullied their name. There business practices are obscene. I will stay with Omega. As for Seiko, they are trying
For the Rolex game. I will stay with vintage Omega. My 1949 18k gold Black face Tresor is a stunner. So is my 1944 18k Bumper Omega. Who needs Rolex!
I don't get how you don't understand diminishing returns. They've discovered that people are willing to pay up to 2x more for a tiny bit better finishing and tiny bit better movement.
I agree 100%
I have almost given up on the thought of anything Seiko because of the confusion.
I just bought a $9100 White Birch ... it's totally worth the cost.. when I compare it with my Rolex's and Patek watches that cost in some cases an order of magnitude more, they easily compare side bay side.
For me as a newbie in watch collecting.. I just pick & buy the watch that will make me happy.. The most important thing is yourself.. you can collect all watches you love & you can always sell watches that you don't like anymore & buy another
I suppose I'm lucky that the only Seiko, or GS I like is the SPB143/239... and they are priced above what I'm willing to pay, so I don't have to worry about the blurred line between Seiko and GS.
Jory, one day Alba and Lorus will have Spring Drive movements!!
I just bought my first Orient. Kano in red dial. It’s gorgeous and one of my friends is complaining that he likes it better then his black bay
Totally agree! I have just bought a Orient Star Moonphase Blue, now planning to get orient sun and moon.
You are the smartest one in this comment section. That blue dial moonphrase from orient is the watch im after. Their newest moonphrase. An one other orient star watch, that i will not mention here. An those will be my two watches, besides my orient sun an moon version five. I sold my other four watches an the sun an moon is the only watch i own as of now. Im getting that orient star watch very soon hopefully, an i will have a hidden orient gem. No need to spend thousands, when orient gives the same for less... Depending on which watch of course by orient.
I agree. I want the Presage Cocktail sooo bad, but I have the Kinetic (5M84, Japan Movement) and it is spectacular! I honestly can’t justify the upgrade, because I’m not a collector.
Thanks for video. I learned some things I didn't know. Cheers.
There was one Grand Seiko authorized dealer here where I live. About a year ago dealer dropped Grand Seiko and just sells Seiko now. I'm not sure what's going on with Grand Seiko. I probably will never buy one now, I like to physically look at a watch before buying one.
Seiko is messing up big time by blurring their pricing model. I pointed this out to my AD recently that it was odd that they have two different tiers of watches that are competing on quality and price. you can get a basic spring drive Grand Seiko for 3-5k or you can get a Seiko Prospex for 3-5k. No Seiko should be over 1k, no Seiko should compete for market share with Grand Seiko.
I have 3 Seikos wich I love and do the maintenance myself, 2 bulovas (one old school Spaceview and one with ETA quartz), 3 Omegas (A 2013 Speedmaster 1861, a 1970 Speedmaster 861 and a 2018 Seamaster Coaxial with a 9900 movement). That being said, with 5 grand I would go for a used Omega Aqua Terra with a cal.9605.
Please do HMT watches!! I know they're probably not up to a lot of watch maker standards (mechanical) but the brand is a part of Indian history no one really talks about. If you see this comment and acknowledge, I'd be honoured Mr. Time Teller.
Thank you for your time.
As an enthusiast that has wanted to get into Seiko and Grand Seiko this video perfectly explains my conundrum.
Have a look at some of the Seiko Brightz models. Personally i think they are the best bargain out of all Seiko/Grand Seiko ranges. I have a cronograph, solar, radio updating model and the finish is outragously good, above most of the Presage range and not far from the Grand Seikos. Purchased this watch as 'unworn' for a crazy unmentionable price! Would love to see you do a review on a decent Brightz model
This year hearing "hellooo and welcome" was highlight of my weak. Thank you for that!