I was at Epsom that day and a friend of mine was near Robert Sangster and Vincent O'Brien when they gave a doorman a£20 tip; the doorman asked shall I back Golden Fleece; Robert Sangster replied you can have that and put your house on him if you want. I and all our friends backed him after hearing about the comment. We all got 4-1. I started towards the bookmaker with about a furlong to go.to collect. Won virtually pulling up. A vastly under-rated horse. Sadly died very young.
Tremendous horse - I watched this on tv and his burst to the front was amazing to see. A tragedy he died so young.Unbelievably underrated by many 'experts'. Eddery thought him on a par with Dancing Brave and Lester said he may have been the best of the lot.
An impossible question to answer, DB. The Fleece was clearly brilliant. His turn of foot here on softish ground is tremendous - as good as anything I've seen, ever. Would he have beaten DB on 1986 Arc Day, Sea Bird on 1965 Arc Day, STS on 2009 Arc Day? That's hard to say, but there can be no definitive verdict. STS, in particular, will remain an enigma and a source of debate for decades as a result of his method of winning. For spectacle, however, DB's Arc stands supreme.
Since the going at Epsom that day was heavy, it's remarkable both that they went off at such a pace and that the winning time was so exceptionally fast. Golden Fleece was a horse of the very highest order.
Remember being at Blenheim Palace on holiday but reading the newspaper pull-out for this Derby. Given how easily Assert won his races - and that he was slaughtered by Golden Fleece, he was some horse. Tragically short career on the track and at stud.
Golden Fleece was an amazing horse. Absolute tragedy that he was unable to run again & worse still his early death from cancer prevented him siring many many champions as he surely would have done with his looks/pedigree & ability
Golden Fleece was a great horse and a more than worthy winner of the 82 Derby. He was however passing tiring horses as it was a quickly run race. The 86 Derby was slowly run and became a home straight sprint. DB was passing horses that were still full of running which is much harder to do. Good as he was Golden Fleece would not have got anywhere near Sharastani from DB's position
There is less than a second between DB and GF covering the last 3 furlongs, but as I said before, considering the pace of the GF Derby, that is really impressive. I consider GF to be one of the best Derby winners of the last 40 years. Just a shame we never saw him run again. He had the potential to be a legend in the same breath as DB and Nijinsky.
Agreed. Golden Fleece's Derby time was ridiculously fast considering the heavy going that day. It's a real shame that injury prevented him from ever running again and that cancer put an end to him before he could make his mark at stud.
Golden Fleece is surely the greatest of all the great unknown quantities in the world of racing. I think he's one of the small handful of horses that on his day may have beaten DB in the 1986 Arc. But I'm not at all sure!
Yes he was. He was quite a striking animal with that dappled grey coat of his. Although not a Tryptich, he was always entered in the big races. I think he might have won the Champion Stakes. I'll look it up. I believe he has had some moderate success at stud as well.
I was also there but was on another of Nijinskys sons - the aptly named Peacetime ( Falklands conflict) Agree with Ed , a visually very impressive winner indeed.
Nijinsky not only passed on his talent to his son, but also his highly strung temperament. Golden Fleece would have won the King George and Arc had he not been retired.
Funny you should mention Karinga Bay, as he was not only a favourite of mine , but was trained just up the road from me by Denys Smith. Bishop Auckland has been home for a couple of truly high class trainers in Mr Smith and the late Arthur Stephenson (The Thinker, Blazing Walker).
Let's not forget the greatest ever wet sail Derby victory - and the quickest to boot. Lammtarra appeared to be completely out of contention - and many lengths back - with two furlongs to go.
Golden Fleece might not have had quite the same sudden burst of acceleration as Dancing Brave, but Golden Fleece's sustained run for the last 3 furlongs must rank him as one of the most impressive Derby winners of the last 40 years.
@Stephen Small Golden Fleece would have beaten Dancing Brave at Epsom. I have no doubt in my mind about that. Whether GF would have beaten DB at Longchamp, I don't know. Eddery thought GF the best he'd ever sat on, so who am I to argue with that.
GF FANTASTIC HORSE WITH PAT EDDERY ON BOARD TWO GIANTS OF THE TURF . BEST HORSE IN MY OPINION WAS DANCEING BRAVE WHAT AN EQUINE SUPERSTAR 86 ARC BEST ARC EVER
TBabytko, Really - I wonder if you ever saw Sea Bird - if so, you have aged very well and perhaps you should consider being a racehorse trainer with all that experience and in depth knowledge of Epsom Derby winners
For wet sail Derby finishes and fast Derby times Lammtarra's Derby speaks for itself. It is quite impossible to pick Lammtarra as the winner at the two furlong pole; three furlongs out he is a 100/1 shot. And he was still learning his trade coming down that Epsom hill.
@TheDartManiac Hi, i remember the 1982 derby, even the actor singing '' who'll win the derby of 1982'', can you please tell me the actual day it took place,..thank you!
Yes, whatever happened to Mashkour. I thought at the time that he stayed on well that day and had the makings of a half-decent animal. I didn't know he finished as quick as he did though.
There have been a number of unlucky losers in the Derby. My memory may be playing tricks but I seem to recall the jockey falling off a probable winner - Hethersett - and a French horse named Angers failing because of some misfortune (can't now remember what it was).
Persepolis was a good horse going into that race (Epsom finished him off) & Touching Wood went on to win a Leger. Silver Hawk ran well in the Irish Derby & dont forget this one (Golden Fleece) murdered the French/Irish Derby winner (Assert) the only times they met. Even Piggott said Golden Fleece was probably O'Briens best Derby winner...
In the last 3 furlongs, Dancing Brave and Golden Fleece have less than a second between them and considering the pace at which GF's race was run, that was pretty impressive. In fact the more I watch this race the more impressive is Golden Fleece's run. When Eddery asks him to go at around 3 furlongs, GF's response is immediate and is sustained till the end. Was GF a better horse than DB? At Epsom I would have to say yes.
A son of Nijinsky out of a Vaguely Noble dam ?...... it doesn't get much better than that me thinks....... as the race shows..... stunning performance!
@dessiesdoneit yes your right New Approach was a great race horse and champion over 2 seasons, the only thing that was wrong with him was his temprament on pure ability i believe he had more raw ability than Sea The Stars and if he put his mind too it he could do what he did in the champion stakes
You have to wonder when you see how many decent Derby winners have flopped at Longchamp. GF either pulverizes the field or finishes half way down the field. I'm a big fan of GF (like his dad) and like to think that, even at the end of the season, he would have had too much for Akiyda and Ardross over 12 furlongs.
Dancing Brave failed only because he was rifdden as a non stayer and Shahrestani dont forget went on to blow away the field in the Irish Derby and in 2 subsequent meetings with Dancing Brave when he was ridden properly was beaten easily. Both Troy and Golden Fleece had no such stamina doubts and didnt come from as far back or face a rival the quality of Shahrastani's quality to pass inside the final ferlong and a half.
Hard to compare Derby winners but he was really impressive on the day coming from so far back and winning easily, As regards fast finishes in the Derby, Where do you leave Sir Ivor's finish in the 1968 race where he covered the last150yds at an unbelievable speed where he came from 3l down to win going away by 1and a half lengths It would be interesting to get the time of that, admittedly though off a slow pace. Lester said on more than one occasion that he was the best Derby winner he rode.
I tell you what, it would have been great had Shergar ran in this. That would be some head to head, I reckon Shergar would have beaten him and made it two in a row.
TOTALLY in the same league as Dancing Brave in my opinion (& Eddery's funnily enough) No, he had cancer, he didn't die from colic. Nijinsky suffered a colic the day before his Derby.
would Vincent O'Brien have run Golden Fleece in the St Leger and before that the Irish Sweeps Derby and King George culminating in the Arc like he did 12 years before with Nijinsky
GF wasn't quickening. As in most races that are run at good pace throughout, the horse that appears to be quickening past other horses in the home straight to win is actually decelerating but at a slower rate than the other horses.
Great derby winner, not sure i'd put him in the same league as dancing brave, does anyone know how fast golden fleece ran the last 2 furlongs, because dancing brave ran his pen ultimate furlong in 10.2 secs, it would be a good way to compare there turn of foot. I see GF speed as similar to nijinsky in his derby, but not as fast as DB.
GF is similar to lammtara in his late finishing swoop! But I don't think that makes him a great horse, Erhaab won the derby impressively by running on late and didn't achieve much after.
I was at Epsom that day and a friend of mine was near Robert Sangster and Vincent O'Brien when they gave a doorman a£20 tip; the doorman asked shall I back Golden Fleece; Robert Sangster replied you can have that and put your house on him if you want. I and all our friends backed him after hearing about the comment. We all got 4-1. I started towards the bookmaker with about a furlong to go.to collect. Won virtually pulling up. A vastly under-rated horse. Sadly died very young.
how good was golden fleece, perhaps one of the most underrated derby winners, the way he cruised past was so impressive
Tremendous horse - I watched this on tv and his burst to the front was amazing to see. A tragedy he died so young.Unbelievably underrated by many 'experts'. Eddery thought him on a par with Dancing Brave and Lester said he may have been the best of the lot.
" Best horse I've ever sat on" ! Straight from the jockey's mouth!
Delighted to finally see this as a young 35 year old. My father always said Golden Fleece was the best flat horse he'd ever seen.....
Golden fleece seems to be underrated
by a lot of so called experts
but not p eddery and he should know
the horse was unbeaten.
great horse
An impossible question to answer, DB. The Fleece was clearly brilliant. His turn of foot here on softish ground is tremendous - as good as anything I've seen, ever. Would he have beaten DB on 1986 Arc Day, Sea Bird on 1965 Arc Day, STS on 2009 Arc Day? That's hard to say, but there can be no definitive verdict. STS, in particular, will remain an enigma and a source of debate for decades as a result of his method of winning.
For spectacle, however, DB's Arc stands supreme.
This colt really was an athletic mover. What a beautiful action he had; second only to the equine poetry in motion that was Nashwan's gait.
Since the going at Epsom that day was heavy, it's remarkable both that they went off at such a pace and that the winning time was so exceptionally fast. Golden Fleece was a horse of the very highest order.
Remember being at Blenheim Palace on holiday but reading the newspaper pull-out for this Derby. Given how easily Assert won his races - and that he was slaughtered by Golden Fleece, he was some horse. Tragically short career on the track and at stud.
Golden Fleece was an amazing horse. Absolute tragedy that he was unable to run again & worse still his early death from cancer prevented him siring many many champions as he surely would have done with his looks/pedigree & ability
A great underrated champion eddery always said he was the best he sat on died of colic
He won on a virtual tight rein
Golden Fleece was a great horse and a more than worthy winner of the 82 Derby. He was however passing tiring horses as it was a quickly run race. The 86 Derby was slowly run and became a home straight sprint. DB was passing horses that were still full of running which is much harder to do. Good as he was Golden Fleece would not have got anywhere near Sharastani from DB's position
@Stephen Small Nah, unplaced.
There is less than a second between DB and GF covering the last 3 furlongs, but as I said before, considering the pace of the GF Derby, that is really impressive. I consider GF to be one of the best Derby winners of the last 40 years. Just a shame we never saw him run again. He had the potential to be a legend in the same breath as DB and Nijinsky.
Agreed. Golden Fleece's Derby time was ridiculously fast considering the heavy going that day. It's a real shame that injury prevented him from ever running again and that cancer put an end to him before he could make his mark at stud.
Fabulous horse...what a tragedy he died so very young,could have been the best of the lot.
Golden Fleece is surely the greatest of all the great unknown quantities in the world of racing.
I think he's one of the small handful of horses that on his day may have beaten DB in the 1986 Arc. But I'm not at all sure!
Yes he was. He was quite a striking animal with that dappled grey coat of his. Although not a Tryptich, he was always entered in the big races. I think he might have won the Champion Stakes. I'll look it up. I believe he has had some moderate success at stud as well.
I was also there but was on another of Nijinskys sons - the aptly named Peacetime ( Falklands conflict) Agree with Ed , a visually very impressive winner indeed.
Nijinsky not only passed on his talent to his son, but also his highly strung temperament. Golden Fleece would have won the King George and Arc had he not been retired.
Funny you should mention Karinga Bay, as he was not only a favourite of mine , but was trained just up the road from me by Denys Smith.
Bishop Auckland has been home for a couple of truly high class trainers in Mr Smith and the late Arthur Stephenson (The Thinker, Blazing Walker).
Let's not forget the greatest ever wet sail Derby victory - and the quickest to boot. Lammtarra appeared to be completely out of contention - and many lengths back - with two furlongs to go.
Golden Fleece might not have had quite the same sudden burst of acceleration as Dancing Brave, but Golden Fleece's sustained run for the last 3 furlongs must rank him as one of the most impressive Derby winners of the last 40 years.
@Stephen Small Golden Fleece would have beaten Dancing Brave at Epsom. I have no doubt in my mind about that. Whether GF would have beaten DB at Longchamp, I don't know. Eddery thought GF the best he'd ever sat on, so who am I to argue with that.
I think Terimon, the long priced second to Nashwan in the 1989 Derby was the exception to that rule and had a reasonable post - derby career.
GF FANTASTIC HORSE WITH PAT EDDERY ON BOARD TWO GIANTS OF THE TURF . BEST HORSE IN MY OPINION WAS DANCEING BRAVE WHAT AN EQUINE SUPERSTAR 86 ARC BEST ARC EVER
Jimmy Sharkey, I would think See The Stars was as good, but Golden Fleece could have been anything? And let's not forget Lamatara.
TBabytko,
Really - I wonder if you ever saw Sea Bird - if so, you have aged very well and perhaps you should consider being a racehorse trainer with all that experience and in depth knowledge of Epsom Derby winners
For wet sail Derby finishes and fast Derby times Lammtarra's Derby speaks for itself. It is quite impossible to pick Lammtarra as the winner at the two furlong pole; three furlongs out he is a 100/1 shot. And he was still learning his trade coming down that Epsom hill.
have you any recordings of horses trained by bill o,gorman
please help
@TheDartManiac Hi, i remember the 1982 derby, even the actor singing '' who'll win the derby of 1982'', can you please tell me the actual day it took place,..thank you!
Yes, whatever happened to Mashkour. I thought at the time that he stayed on well that day and had the makings of a half-decent animal. I didn't know he finished as quick as he did though.
There have been a number of unlucky losers in the Derby. My memory may be playing tricks but I seem to recall the jockey falling off a probable winner - Hethersett - and a French horse named Angers failing because of some misfortune (can't now remember what it was).
I thought angers was st Paddy's year in 1960 but might wrong
Persepolis was a good horse going into that race (Epsom finished him off) & Touching Wood went on to win a Leger. Silver Hawk ran well in the Irish Derby & dont forget this one (Golden Fleece) murdered the French/Irish Derby winner (Assert) the only times they met.
Even Piggott said Golden Fleece was probably O'Briens best Derby winner...
In the last 3 furlongs, Dancing Brave and Golden Fleece have less than a second between them and considering the pace at which GF's race was run, that was pretty impressive. In fact the more I watch this race the more impressive is Golden Fleece's run. When Eddery asks him to go at around 3 furlongs, GF's response is immediate and is sustained till the end. Was GF a better horse than DB? At Epsom I would have to say yes.
dancing brave and shergar dont need to say anymore
A son of Nijinsky out of a Vaguely Noble dam ?...... it doesn't get much better than that me thinks....... as the race shows..... stunning performance!
I thought he was a certainty that day. Thanks to Pat Eddery R.I.P. whose death was reported today at age 63
A great Derby winner, though maybe not the strongest of Derby fields.
@dessiesdoneit yes your right New Approach was a great race horse and champion over 2 seasons, the only thing that was wrong with him was his temprament on pure ability i believe he had more raw ability than Sea The Stars and if he put his mind too it he could do what he did in the champion stakes
You have to wonder when you see how many decent Derby winners have flopped at Longchamp. GF either pulverizes the field or finishes half way down the field. I'm a big fan of GF (like his dad) and like to think that, even at the end of the season, he would have had too much for Akiyda and Ardross over 12 furlongs.
Dancing Brave failed only because he was rifdden as a non stayer and Shahrestani dont forget went on to blow away the field in the Irish Derby and in 2 subsequent meetings with Dancing Brave when he was ridden properly was beaten easily. Both Troy and Golden Fleece had no such stamina doubts and didnt come from as far back or face a rival the quality of Shahrastani's quality to pass inside the final ferlong and a half.
Hard to compare Derby winners but he was really impressive on the day coming from so far back and winning easily, As regards fast finishes in the Derby, Where do you leave Sir Ivor's finish in the 1968 race where he covered the last150yds at an unbelievable speed where he came from 3l down to win going away by 1and a half lengths It would be interesting to get the time of that, admittedly though off a slow pace. Lester said on more than one occasion that he was the best Derby winner he rode.
Liam Gaule, Not as good as Troys derby, the best Finnish you will see.
I tell you what, it would have been great had Shergar ran in this. That would be some head to head, I reckon Shergar would have beaten him and made it two in a row.
TOTALLY in the same league as Dancing Brave in my opinion (& Eddery's funnily enough)
No, he had cancer, he didn't die from colic. Nijinsky suffered a colic the day before his Derby.
Sad loss as a top class racehorse and potentially top class stallion.
Have to agree with you Shaffi. I think GF would have destroyed the 1982 Arc field.
But then he may have passed out on the fumes as the three you mention come past SB. Truth is it's impossible to call that race.
would Vincent O'Brien have run Golden Fleece in the St Leger and before that the Irish Sweeps Derby and King George culminating in the Arc like he did 12 years before with Nijinsky
Can't agree with you Darwinbhoy. From DB's position Troy would have had no chance.
@TheBroph1 Sorry, that was a dumb comment :eek. If they ran the same year I think Shergar would have come out on top
GF wasn't quickening. As in most races that are run at good pace throughout, the horse that appears to be quickening past other horses in the home straight to win is actually decelerating but at a slower rate than the other horses.
Great derby winner, not sure i'd put him in the same league as dancing brave, does anyone know how fast golden fleece ran the last 2 furlongs, because dancing brave ran his pen ultimate furlong in 10.2 secs, it would be a good way to compare there turn of foot. I see GF speed as similar to nijinsky in his derby, but not as fast as DB.
Successful post-Derby career then eh.
How can you say GF was better than DB, GF never ran against older horses. Do you think that GF could of beaten DB in the 86 Arc.
GF is similar to lammtara in his late finishing swoop! But I don't think that makes him a great horse, Erhaab won the derby impressively by running on late and didn't achieve much after.
As he never ran again we never knew how good he was so can't say that
SEABIRD would have smoked Mill Reef,Dancing Brave, and Nijinsky!!!
Dancing brave I agree with mill reef and Nijinsky would of beat him
Weak derby field. Only good horse in that race was Touching Wood