I am very glad to have been given this information. I am Catholic and I have heard these huge numbers for Protestant denominations. Clearly the methodology is very unclear and misleading (unintentionally). Thank you for enlightening me on this important point. We shouldn't propogate unfair descriptions of others.
There are greater differences between Catholic congregations than some of these so called denominations- it is more a matter of governance than theology.
On separated churches and true Christians (from Our Lord's long discourse on the Book of Revelation dictated to Maria Valtorta during Sept-Nov, 1950; the following excerpts are from pp. 579 and 581, Notebooks 1945-1950): "Separated churches gave themselves a human constitution, preserving as regards the True Church only what they liked to preserve to call themselves 'Christian.' But to be Christians does not mean just to pray to Christ and preach Him in some way or other; it does not mean to be even more rigorist than true Catholics in certain matters. Yet that did not make them -- aside from rare exceptions -- 'Christians' but, on the contrary, made them 'anti-Christians.' To be Christians means to form part of the Mystical Body by belonging to the Church of Rome as Catholics and belonging to Christ by truly living as He taught and commanded to live. Otherwise, one is not a Christian in reality, not even if one is Catholic. Otherwise, people will be called Christians, but not be shoots nourished by Him. They will be detached shoots which, even if they are not completely dry because a natural tendency towards Goodness make them act as just ones, are nevertheless branches that have replanted themselves on their own, in a proud way, and have produced a plant standing apart which yields fox-grapes and not good ones. To bear abundant and holy fruit, they must be grafted onto the True Vine. This is valid for both the individual shoots and those forming a life apart, the separated churches which have given their own constitution, conceived by their founder -- a man and not the God-Man -- cannot have that totality of spiritual life which only belonging to the Mystical Body maintains and protects against ever-greater separations, not only from the Body itself, but from the Truth and Light which render secure the way leading from the earthly Church to the Heavenly One."
What we now see is everyone inventing their own church and calling it “non-denominational” so they have their own rules and beliefs. Are they each being counted as a denomination? Doubt it. That’s how they get around this statistic
@YAJUN YUAN It took him 14 years, in 1982 traveling and learning all these denominations would take some financial backing. Today we have the internet and have been able to build off his research. But just a generation ago this would be next to impossible.
My guy Joshua coming out here with "I'm tired of seeing the same comment" video, so he systematically and politely tore it down lol Thanks for the work brother!
I actually think this video is very well done. From a Catholic perspective, I think if we're going to make the argument about there being too many Protestant denominations, we have to come up with some different definition of denomination because this scholarly definition, while it is entirely accurate for its purpose, doesn't really do justice to what is meant here. We also know that in some cases new denominations are formed from splitting off of Old denominations because the old denominations have gone away from the original purpose of the denomination, and in some cases the original doctrine of the denomination itself.
Many of these are just independent congregations which don't have particularly distinctive beliefs. Given the way that religion has been treated recently, it is good if we have multiple groups which can't be easily compromised due to their sheer number.
What we now see is everyone inventing their own church and calling it “non-denominational” so they have their own rules and beliefs. Are they each being counted as a denomination? Doubt it. That’s how they get around this statistic
@@haggismcbaggis9485 A denomination is an organisation - that's probably the simplest definition. Sect and cult used to refer to small groups, but cult is now used to refer to small groups or newer ones with authoritarian tendencies.
I'd never heard those numbers, but would have intuitively believed them, given how many tiny denominations there are, where one group of churches splits off due to one or two important-to-them doctrinal differences. And that's ignoring how the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, etc have split for doctrinal (slavery vs not, women pastors vs not, gay pastors vs not, women pastors but not gay pastors, etc).
@@RonJohn63 even though it may not be strictly factual, given the facts that I do know, some of them thanks to what Joshua himself has said, it might as well be true. And it's a scandal.
@@HolyKhaaaaan it's a scandal if you think the Bible is the inspired/inerrant Word of the perfect omniscient/omnipotent Creator of the Universe that cares about each and every one of us. If you realize that Man makes God in his own image, it's not just understandable but expected in an intellectually open society.
@@RonJohn63 It's not really that true. Many congregations are independent, but that is not the same as being a completely different denomination. I have been to independent churches which had almost identical beliefs to many others - the independence is political rather than theological.
As a Catholic, I’m constantly annoyed by people saying this. The number is definitely overinflated. But I’d argue that the mere existence of any split in the church is a bad thing, so having even 5 denominations would be bad. Even two! Great video Joshua!
@YAJUN YUAN I would say a split is only necessary from our human perspective, and not from God's, since the Church was born at Pentecost thru the descent of the Holy Spirit, Who is One, along with the Father and the Son.
This may well be your best video yet. I feel smarter for having watched it. If I need to point out the diversity of Protestantism going forward, I will talk of "certainly dozens and probably hundreds of denominations." I will never use or accept tens of thousands ever again. Thank you for setting me straight.
My rough calculations are about 25 expressions of Protestantism for every 1 Catholic or Orthodox communion. None of that takes into account the existence of independent churches ( Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant), variations in doctrine and/or practice, particularly who you hold fellowship with and how (table fellowship? pulpit fellowship? full sacramental recognition? etc). And the more diverse understandings there are of all of those things, the more separate groups of mutually identified Christians you are going to have.
In the 1990s I was Vicar of a Cof E Church in a village of 1,000 inhabitants. There were 4 churches in the village. The Parish Church and 3 different Methodist churches......all calling themselves Methodist, but all very distinct from each other and apart from the name had little in common and no fellowship with each other. I remember listening to a Independent Preacher in the 1960s who would have nothing whatever to do with the Methodist Church and said about the then proposed union between Anglicans and Methodists, that "you cannot put two dead bodies together and get a living soul".
I believe that has been the case for a very long time, churches under the same umbrella but each one different. From what I've seen it all depends on the individual pastors who set the tone for that individual church building/congregation. I've seen the same thing in reformed churches also. In any large branch there's going to be variations like this. The major points remain the same but the emphasis (or lack) or "personality" is set by the pastor.
Our Lord said: I am the resurrection and the life (John 11:25). I am the way, the Truth, and the life (John 14:6). Remain in Me, as I remain in you, just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me (John 15:4). Unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you do not have life in you (John 6:53). Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood remains in Me and I in him (John 6:56). I never knew you, depart from Me, you evil doers (Matt 7:23). Do you believe all that? Then where do you get the Body and Blood of Our Lord to consume? Our Lord's Body and Blood are given freely to all members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, Our Lord founded on Peter (Matt 16:18), during the Sacrifice of the Mass offered, as He commanded (Luke 22:19-20, Matt 26:26-28), every day at every Catholic Church all around the world. If you do not belong to the Roman Catholic Church, what are you going to do since you need them to have life in you and to remain in Him? Why remain in separated churches founded by men, not God-man, which teach heresies and a partial truth, are withered branches separated from the Vine (John 15:5) and will be thrown into a fire (John 15:6)? Our Lord is the head of His Church (Eph 5:23) and He said: Whoever is not with Me is against Me, and whoever does not gather with Me, scatters (Matt 12:30). Can't you see protestants scatter in hundreds denominations? Open your eyes and come to the Light! Come to Our Lord's Church and meet Him there where He is waiting for you with open arms and loving heart to save you, giving Himself in His Body and Blood!
I always believed that those huge numbers were bogus. But I had no idea of the basis for them. As Joshua stated: The numbers are what they are and are truthful, but they are not stating what most of us believed they stated. Thanks for this presentation.
Catholic here -- this was very helpful, insightful, and challenging. I have never cited the 45,000 number, because I could just smell the outlandishness of it.. I have cited the 20,000 before though, not knowing the full argument and how the numbers came to be. I will be more careful about it. My other thoughts, I disagree with the Catholic Register's saying that the number doesn't matter. I think it is an important case to make, though the numbers need to be cited more accurately... I know (from my religious studies degree) that actual numbers and even actual definitions (who/what is a Christian; who/what is a Buddhist, etc.) are always difficult if not impossible to make 100% accurately, and are more for the convenience of having coherent conversations... Still, I would say the same 'denomination' in two different countries COULD be counted as two separate denominations IF the nature of that denomination/ecclesial aggregate does not meet internationally to make decisions for the whole.. In other words, Freewill Missionary Baptists in America might convene to keep the KJV, while Freewill Missionary Baptists in Canada or England might convene to introduce the NKJV or NIV, etc... But if the international body convenes to make decisions for all the churches under the same title, THEN they would definitely be one. Many churches/parishes in the 'Church of Christ' do not have any ecclesiastical assembly, and literally that single church building, with it's own pastor and elders, are autocephalic, and do not answer to any larger body. Does that make every single Church of Christ building its own denomination? It's hard to say... "What constitutes a denomination?" might be a similar question to Joshua's video asking "What is a Christian?" Why is Confucianism a religion, but Aristotelian-ism is a philosophy? I have my own answers to these questions, just musing here, not trying to convince someone I'm right about everything. Very thankful for this video, and for this channel +Peace in Christ+
Great video. I've long regarded people advocating for the Roman and Eastern church by using this argument as being lazy and intellectually dishonest. It immediately reveals that they aren't arguing in good faith and are just repeating slogans they don't understand.
Thank you for this. I've made this exact argument as a Catholic, and you have taught me where it comes from, and all the nuance that it entails. Protestant denominations from different countries could technically be considered different, since they don't submit to one single authority, and can diverge on their beliefs at any point, which is the underlying problem with Protestantism as a whole. But this would imply we are assuming they WILL diverge at some point, even before they actually do it, which is a fallacy.
Note well, SP, it is a Protestant perspective on a Protestant assessment of a Protestant naming convention; so, yes, it is misleading .. and it is very improperly used in Catholic rhetorical apologetics. Nonetheless, it is, more or less, correct - in spirit if not yet seen in material data. Protestants .. and now Catholics who are eager to be more like them .. do tend to go for independent, self-governing, culturally related and thus nation state language definitions of themselves; some may share fairly similar or fundamental ideas/ teachings, but they do not submit to a higher (hierarchical) authority than their own preferred understanding of their own preferred Scripture. That reality is the increasing multiplicity of 'churches' now being called denominations, rather than the older Anglican socio-historical-definition in use of a branch theory. The name that applied (in State records) was given to an officially recognised branch of the Christian (sic) church (by Anglican scholars, aware that they were not the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church but only a rather novel version of it). In days past, if a Christian answered 'Christian' to the question 'What religion are you?' when put by a state official (in school, army, hospital, prison etc) he would get the nearest Anglican clergyman or a similar established church officer, Catholics had to answer Roman Catholic, the Orthodox were relatively few in number in English-speaking countries, in the USA Baptists/ Non-Conformists might get a Baptist preacher, but all others were lumped together en-mass as Protestant (i.e. Anglican, Presbyterian or Lutheran). God bless. ;o)
@Prey R That is the distinction between a dependent mission and an independent church. A Phillipino Four-Square Gospel End-Time Rapture church may share many of the key features as its English-speaking missionary source in the US of A, but it is an independent entity. And thus, today, it is a denomination - the Philippines bit being an essential element in its own understanding (even if doing missionary work in the US among peoples of Philippine extraction there - with Tagalog scriptures, hymns, sermons etc). I hope that helps. God bless. ;o)
Thomists, Jesuits and Augustinians have different theology. So there are denominations inside the RCC. The question is what is true not who is in charge.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 That is true and if Protestants are wrong because of the various denominations then the RCC is doubly wrong for, according to them, we all come from them.
Thanks for this video. I am a theist who is rapidly abandoning my childhood Christian faith. After watching this, I realized that I too had been unfairly quoting these numbers without really understanding the basis for them. That is an issue I will fix going forward, thanks to your video. That said, however, the underlying point I've been making has not changed, whether I rely upon the incorrect 45,000 number or the much more conservative 200 number. Christians always say that they are being led by the Holy Spirit--the Spirit of Truth. When I ask how can the Spirit of Truth can lead people in so many different directions, I get nothing but crickets. On rare occasion, someone will note that there is complete agreement on the "major" beliefs--which is clearly not true looking simply at the division between Catholics and Protestants. Interestingly, such people can never give me a criterial for delineating between "major" beliefs, for which the Holy Spirit will never lead in different directions, and "minor" beliefs (for which It apparently does?). Example: eternal security. Considered by some to be a "minor" doctrinal issue. Well, for me, the criteria for being able to lose your salvation should be every bit as important as the criteria for getting your salvation in the first place. Anyway, the point being, that even at 200, "that's a lotta denominations".
Thank you for clarifying this often misunderstood issue. There's so much uninformed opinion that circulates among Christians on how many denominations there are. Using national boundaries to count denominations is absurd. You have brought the light of reason and logic to this controversy. So very helpful. Sola Scriptura. Had the Catholic church not swerved from this truth, maybe we wouldn't have needed a Reformation.
Thank you for an informative and well done video. I sincerely appreciate you bringing clarity to this topic. I live in a rural community of 4,300 people. We have 4 different Presbyterian churches. I wonder how examples like this would figure into the discussion about how many Protestant churches there really are. Also how do all the “non-denominational” churches fit into the calculation? Keep up the good work.
"Also how do all the “non-denominational” churches fit into the calculation?" They are still denominations for purposes of counting how many different kinds exist. I suspect each of these qualify as a denomination of its very own; meaning that the vast majority of this big number simply represents local churches that are not aligned with a parent denomination.
Fascinating. Joshua Lindsey offers a valid and sound presentation of the vast array of 'religious denominations' based on his insightful definition of the term 'denomination'. I recommend Joshua Lindsey as a reliable depth researcher on the fragmentation of religious denominations. Joshua also does not push his own religious nor political views. That alone should drive you to watching his presentations. Keep going Joshua. You provide factual research on exactly what various religious 'denominations' actually claim and believe.
Roger Oleson blogged on this extensively when he was compiling and editing the most recent edition of Mead's Handbook of Denominations. He made many of the points you've presented. I like your firmness in calling many of these fallacies "just plain wrong."
As a Catholic, I was completely ignorant of that fact and used the big numbers because I thought they were true. Now I know better, thank you for clearing up the misconception.
Good video! To address some comments, what comprises the Catholic Church is several 'churches' - called Rites - in communion with the See of Rome. Therefore, it's inaccurate to say that the differences inside Catholicism would warrant different denominations. Roman Catholic is the largest church inside Catholicism, but there are Byzantine, Melkites, Syro-Malabar etc. What may therefore make a denomination is the coherent dogma/theology that goes even deeper than individual practices of that particular church; What does this church say about the nature of Christ, the sacraments, Scripture, moral theology, as opposed to another within her apparent tradition? Finally, I'm curious about the actual breakdown of the 300 denominations. Anecdotally, here in the US there are so many 'nondenominational' Christians that perhaps the encyclopedia is only counting formalized denominations. Seems like denominationalism is a concept more pronounced among mainline Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics, wherein it's trickier with contemporary Evangelicals and Pentecostals. How many times has the question "What denomination are you?" been met with "Oh, just Christian". Not very helpful.
“Churches called rites” This is inaccurate. There are several rites (Roman, Byzantine, East Syriac, West Syriac, Armenian, Coptic etc but there are over a dozen sui juris Byzantine rite churches. Rite ≠ church. For example, the Melkite Catholic Church is a Byzantine rite church
@@goaltender330 Yes, you're completely correct my mistake. I was just highlighting that different churches in the Catholic Church do not constitute new denominations as we understand them.
If you examine the doctrines and practices of for example the various Lutheran synods, Wesleyan churches, Reformed churches, mainstream churches, Evangelical churches they are all listed as separate churches. These churches have almost identical practices and doctrine. RC religious orders have wildly different practices and emphasis. Compare a Marian order who practices the total consecration to Mary ala Louis Montfort with a Jesuit order that practices Ignatian Spiritual Exercises. If these were Protestant groups all would consider these separate denominations. The word denomination is applied more strictly to Protestant groups than Catholic ones inflating the numbers.
I don't know exactly, but I suspect that, for the 300 number, they would condense the nondenominational churches into a small number that teach mostly the same things. Something like "Nondenom, Charismatic," "Nondenom, Baptist-ish," etc. Or Methodist churches into maybe 2 denomination-clusters: "Methodist, Mainline" and "Methodist, Evangelical."
I don't think that 300 is any better from a Catholic / Orthodox perspective. I think what we're interested in is how many groups there are that aren't unified to each other as one body. This is a very tricky thing to define. There are some groups that may indeed be unified to each other despite looking very different. And there are some mainline 'communions' that mean very little - groups that are certainly not unified to each other. I don't know how you could define this qualitatively - much less study it. 300 is probably about how many denominational categories there are though.
The Catholic Church in the USA has asserted each diocese/archdiocese is independent when defending against clerical abuse lawsuits! Meaning the Catholics are technically part of the problem of "there is too many churches :("
@@crownpenguin9180 Lel, the Catholic critique of this fractionalization and schism isn't that there are too many bodies identified as independent according to secular law.
There are only two denominations if you're talking unity. Christian and non-Christian. Christians are all brethren. We have Jesus to unite us. Catholics have the pope.
Learn a lot from this video as a Muslim very well made thank you. Is there any proper academic work on how many different versions of the bible or even additional books such as Book of Mormon these denominations use?
I think the more interesting quote is "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs." I heard a pastor argue that the real division is more akin to this type of number. Also, I really like that the problem is division, not of how great or small the division is.
@@joshuas1834 i think they are: Eastern Orthodoxy Oriental Orthodoxy (Myaphisite) Nestorian Churches Catholicism Protestantism Restorationism and any christian denomination can be classified into one of these
and there us the going to church and belief, going to church because of social pressure, going to church because of habit, going to church as they have coffee and cake afterwards.
If we judge all the groups that have some kind of full external fellowship with each other as one denomination, whether they call it communion, full fellowship, or whatever, it would do a lot to pair down the numbers. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod has full altar and puplit fellowship with the American Association of Lutheran churches and thus they can be counted as one body for the purposes of judging the state of division in Christendom, for example. If you surveryed each eccesliatical tradition and started with counting the big players, then moved down to all the micro-sized sectarian groups, you still wouldn't have more than a few dozen denominational blocs for each camp. There might be a full thousand seperate denominational blocs out there, but that's if you include all the ones with a dozen congregations apiece.
This is something I had to address quite a few times. I'm sending people your way when I hear this absurd claim. It's clear, to the point, and meets the high quality I've come to expect from this channel.
I'd be very interested in seeing a video or series of videos on the various groups from the Pre/Early/Ancient/Medieval eras of Christianity. Adamites, Arianism, Ebionites, Elcesaites, Marcionism, Nazarenes, Bardaisanites, Basilideans, Carpocratianism, Nicolatians, Sethianism, Simonians, Valentinianism, Catharism, Donatism, Paulicianism, Brethren of the Free Spirit, Dulcinians, Bogomilism, Agonoclita, Petrobrusians, Strigolniki, Tondrakians, Lollardy, Henricans, Friends of God, et al.
In the video JL explains that those who compiled the lists had the scholarly interest in determining the number of denominations within each country and how many adherents for each denomination. They were not setting themselves the task to give the number of denominations for the whole world. No doubt, someone with a lot of time to spare could derive a fairly accurate global figure from the data in the book
Some are just different legal names in the respective countries when they are recognized by that country. So, it may be helpful when studying the membership or number of congregations of a church when comparing sources that may use the different legal titles. You need to think of them as rows in one big spreadsheet that have not been combined as a pivot table by a common denominator. This video is helpful to remind people to do that extra step when quoting a number.
Interesting Video! I was wondering if I can get a page number for Barrett’s quote explaining his definition of Denominations in the encyclopedia? It would help me for my research for sermons.
The UMC has one connection but many national conferences that have unique books of Discipline based on their culture. It's impossible to maintain a set belief system within a global communion. There is no way the UMC or any other communion can have consistency across international borders. I like the families of systemic theologies that the Encyclopedia uses. It makes it easier to do the academic work. Theologians are not all pastors. Some of us are academic and these larger and smaller subsets makes researching easier.
I've asked this earlier, but I really would like to know what a Christian American thinks of the many many reformed churches in the Netherlands. Almost all of these churches did split from the original Reformed Church of The Nederlands (nowadays known as: The Protestant Church of The Netherlands (PKN). Could you please make a video about these churches?
As you have noted there are about 300 ecclesial traditions. I am guessing if you identified who is in altar and pulpit fellowship the number would drop to less than 100. as worldwide there are really only a few Lutheran groups. for example, those in the LWF, those in the ILC, and the rest would be splinter groups of nominal membership but even those would not be more than a half dozen or so.
Great video. But, what is the best and most up-to-date source of the number of Christian denominations in the US? One that would include the Global Methodist Church which just started, as example.
One thing that you wouldn't expect to be controversial about these numbers is how many countries there are (which you would expect was simple but it is not), this 243 value is the largest I have ever seen suggested. The lowest number that is usually accepted is 196 (UN members + Vatican), and the largest I had seen previously was 205 (which is used by the Olympics).
Right. In this area it can vary because countries merge but that does not mean that the churches do. (Wales, Scotland and England all tend to have separate church bodies, and are different countries in that sense but only counted once by the UN) Churches may also serve countries that are not recognized (e.g. Taiwan, Tibet)
@@ReadyToHarvest What a strange overlap of worlds, I wouldn't have called this. I saw it earlier, they always make good material. Thanks for the thought though, especially on a post this old.
Another point that's not mentioned here. In Lutheranism (at least) there are dozens of different denominations across the world that may have different names, but are grouped together in international councils and have fellowship with one another. The Lutheran World Federation (in fellowship with the ELCA in the States), the International Lutheran Council (in fellowship with the Missouri Synod in the States) and the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference (with the Wisconsin Synod) are the three largest.
Excellent video, as usual. Although I think the Catholic Church is one denomination, it is important to note that the universal church consists of 23 rites (of which 22 ordain married men to the priesthood). Each rite is in communion with the Pope in Rome, but each has its distinctive liturgy and discipline. The Roman Rite (which generally requires priests to be celibate) is the most well known, but even it differs from one nation to another. In the United States, which has the First Amendment, the Pope has complete freedom in selecting bishops. In other countries, he needs the approval of the local government (e.g. Concordat of 1801, which is still in effect in Alsace-Lorraine). In Argentina, the bishop must be a citizen of Argentina. If the church receives financial support from the government, that gives the government the leverage it needs to enforce its requirements. Dioceses do not cross national boundaries. Prior to the Mexican War, the diocese of the Two Californias included Alta California and Baja California, and the bishop’s seat was at Monterey. When the United States conquered Alta California (the present-day State of California), the diocese, at the insistence of the Mexicans, was split along national borders. Fast and abstinence rules, and the designation of holy days of obligation (on which Catholics are obliged to hear Mass) differ from one country to another, or in some cases, from diocese-to-diocese within the same country). Some dioceses observe Epiphany on January 6 and the Ascension on Thursday (40 days after Easter) while others move them to the nearest Sunday, since many Catholics are unable to come to church during the week. Many Eastern Catholics still observe the Julian Calendar when determining days like Christmas and Easter. While none of the foregoing, in my view, causes the Catholic church to be more than one denomination, it does demonstrate that the church is not as uniform or monolithic as some believe it is or, perhaps, would like it to be.
" 23 rites (of which 22 ordain married men to the priesthood" This is technically true but it should be noted that while priests can stay married upon ordination they cannot marry after they have been ordained. Also, the prohibition on marriage applies fully to bishops.
@@ben8557 You are correct. Note that I said "ordain married men to the priesthood," not that priests may marry. The priest must be married at the time of the ordination. If the wife dies, he may not remarry. If he is unmarried at the time of ordination, he must remain so. If he has any hope of becoming a bishop, he needs to be unmarried at the time of ordination and remain so. The historical reason for this rule is that bishops were selected from among monks at the monastery, whereas the men ordained as priests came from a more general population. I was explaining all this to a United Methodist friend once, and he said, "at least you do not have the problem of dating clergy." :)
@@pixieburton3131 It’s a good way to get the Gospel to bikers. Bikers reaching bikers, speaking their own language to them and making a strong brotherhood.
So is there a definitive number for how many groups there are that believe the fundamentals of the Christian faith? One that excludes groups that obviously don't believe in one or more of the fundamentals (such as the Divinity of Christ) and counting each group only once, regardless of how many countries they are represented in?
Part of the problem is that there is no unified definition of what constitutes a "Christian fundamental". There divinity of Christ is probably one, but who is to say, and on what grounds?
I think even with the 300 theologically distinct groups makes sense when you start to think in terms of exponentiality. Consider simply having 8 different questions, each with only 2 possible answers. That alone gets you to 256 possible permutations. Many theological questions have multiple biblically defensible right answers.
Thank you for this video which provides some useful explanation. I will readily admit that I don't get particularly excited about such wild numbers - they are unhelpful and irrelevant in the context of each of us loving one another as God loves us. That there are different forms of expression of Christian belief across the spectrum of Christ-centred denominations, is clearly true. I converted to Christian Orthodox some 15 years ago and, for me at least, it was and still is the right decision for me. I do not reject other Christ-centred denominations simply because they are different or "not Orthodox". Jesus Christ knows who his people are, and whose heart is in the right place, regardless of any denomination. Take the Good Samaritan: His heart was in the right place. Do you think Jesus would reject him from His kingdom?
I think all that splintering isn't much of a problem. With modern Catholicism, you have people who openly ignore or disagree with church teachings identifying and even taking positions of leadership within the church. With Protestant denominations, the dissenters would just go form their own church, thus ensuring a greater degree of internal theological consistency.
My attitude toward Catholics is: of the however many different denominations you claim there are out there, at least one of them is likely to be right. And you not wanting to do the work of looking into the theology of what they all actually believe is not an excuse to just default to the one that claims to have always been united even though that's manifestly not the case.
@@RepublicofE Honestly, there's a real chance none of them are 100% correct on every topic, since the Bible is vague on certain things such as the importance of Baptism, and any claims of a "perfect tradition" being demonstrably untrue, like for instance, how Catholicism's view on slavery shifted from accepting it to calling it a evil over 1600 years. Not to suggest that's a unique problem for them, Protestant denominations wrestled with the issue too, but it's just one easy example how Catholicism changed its doctrines.
Paul clearly stated in 1 Cor. 1 that God's Church is supposed to speak the same thing, practice the same traditions, and have the same judgement. There is 0 way that anyone can argue that a multitude of disagreeing "Christian" groups can all be worshiping the same God that inspired Paul to write those words.
I suggest the video author do a video on sedevacantism, especially the Dimond brothers apostolate. It is an important topic to even concieve the current state of Catholicism with sense of proportion.
I'm fortunate to have known this fact for a long time, but it still never brought me comfort. I still see myself being on the wrong side of history being a protestant. I'm going to my first Orthodox divine liturgy next week and I'm excited.
Good for you. My husband and I journeyed through the evangelical world and have ended up in the Anglican church. (ACNA) we feel like we have reached home and have experienced a deeper conversion. The liturgy is ancient and we worship in the context of the Word and Sacrament every Sunday. Blessings on you as you worship with our Orthodox Brothers and sisters.
I would argue that the culture from your country has a huge impact on how you live and understand your religion, this is why I would count different denominations for different countries with strong cultural influences.
From my (Catholic) perspective, I feel like the way that denomination should be defined is more in the realm of their school of thought, and that different organizations (who may hold some different practices or views, but generally fall under the same general school of thought) should be considered Churches, Organizations, Rites, etc. For example, one might say there is One Roman Catholic Denomination (I know many Catholics, including myself, are opposed to calling ourselves a denomination at all, but for the purposes of this idea, that is the language I would use across all traditions) one Roman Catholic Church (One could possibly go further with this, and say there is one Catholic Denomination, but consists of 23 Churches/Rites) or one may say there are two Pentecostal Denominations (there may be more with distinguishing features that would notably separate them, but standard Pentecostals and Oneness Pentecostals are the only one's I recall at the moment), but a great many different Pentecostal Churches (not even bothering looking that one up). Even if two Churches that would, under this method, be grouped as the same denomination, I think it's more genuine to categorize and label them this way. Every Lutheran Church follows the teachings of Martin Luther. Multiple Lutheran Organizations may have different agreements on those teachings, or on things he never taught about, or on things he was vague about, but the main point stands that their foundation is in Luther (obviously they would claim their basis is in Scripture, but such a claim is unhelpful for the explicit purpose of categorization) With categorization being far from a science, obviously you can't have a single, all defining list, and some Organizations may be far from falling into any camp, and belong in their own. This is fine too- being heavily distinct from any denomination, for the purposes of this way of categorization, makes you a denomination in and of yourself. I believe Swedenborgians would be an example of this, but I don't know enough about them and who they influenced to say that with authority Regardless, I feel a big issue in how we understand the number of denominations is because of that unclearness. There is one Anglican denomination. There is one Lutheran, one Catholic, one... idk, Methodist denomination, just many of these have several organizations (some of whom may claim to be the only true variant of that denomination, but even then, exist within that same shared tradition, and thus should not rightly be called denominations in their own right
3:29 Note how two of the three highlighted comments are taking the (already vastly overinflated by the methodology) estimates for the number of Christian denominations *for the entire world,* and claiming that these are the number of denominations *in the USA alone.*
@Ready to Harvest: 👏 Great video! 👏 But, I'd love to see a follow-up that addresses the topic of how many denominations there'd be if a TRULY RELEVANT definition of the term "denomination" was used. Which definition? Well, to answer THAT, we have to ask, "truly relevant to what question or dispute?" The question or dispute determines the definition; and the definition produces the number of "denominations." Here are two examples: EXAMPLE #1: Unified Church Discipline Authority: Catholics like to stress the point that, in Matthew 18, the procedure for Church Discipline is intended by Jesus to work worldwide, for the whole Church. They argue that apart from such a system of authority, no real unity can exist, not even in principle (because all borderlines-of-unity would logically be based on ephemeral agreement which might be lost five minutes later, and no standard can possibly exist to distinguish required dogmas from matters-of-indifference). By this standard, the definition of a "denomination" is clear: Two local bodies belong to the same denomination if their system of church discipline permits them to appeal discipline cases to a common judicial process, with a common final authority for settling each case, and if the final judgment of each case will be honored by both local bodies. (Example: If one Presbyterian congregation denies communion, or permission to teach Sunday School, to Person X because Person X holds to an incorrect soteriology (e.g. "Federal Vision"), and if he appeals his case to the local "session," and they affirm the initial decision, and the guy gets mad and changes to a different Presbyterian congregation on the other side of town, and that different congregation upholds the decision of the local "session" BECAUSE they consider the judgment of the "session" authoritative over them, THEN those two congregations belong to the same denomination. But if the second Presbyterian congregation either disagrees, or decides independently to agree, then they DON'T belong to the same denomination, for Matthew 18 purposes. This, as anyone can see, yields a number of "denominations" which is way, way HIGHER than 33,000. Nearly every Baptist congregation would be considered its own "denomination" for these purposes. And, please note: That REALLY IS a definition that a Catholic would find relevant. In the Catholic view, Jesus' teaching in Matthew 18 is that "if you refuse to listen EVEN TO THE CHURCH (meaning, the One Church, worldwide) you can be treated as a heathen or publican (throughout the One Church, worldwide)." By that definition, there are probably twenty million Protestant groups, a dozen or so Orthodox and Anglican groups, a few pseudo-Catholic groups who aren't in communion with Rome (e.g. the Utrecht group and certain sedevacantists), and exactly one Catholic group in communion with Rome. EXAMPLE #2: Sufficient Doctrinal Agreement To Permit Teaching/Preaching: On the other hand, a definition that Protestants might prefer would focus on doctrinal agreement: "We are the same denomination IF, and ONLY IF, my congregation is willing for you to preach and teach the same doctrines, with the same level of emphasis, in my congregation as you do in yours." By that standard, liberal Protestants and conservative Protestants within the same tradition of ecclesial governance and sacramentology (e.g. Presbyterianism) would be different denominations, but any two conservative Presbyterian groups would be considered the same denomination, even if their systems of church disciplines terminated in different "sessions." All this, of course, leads to questions about what standard Christians SHOULD be using to discern whether any given person or group is functionally in a state of unity with their own group. But that's an entirely-separate, and equally-complex, question! So let's prescind from it, for the moment. The point of THIS post is to identify, and call for, the NEXT STEP in this Ready to Harvest discussion: Given that the 33,000 number comes from a weird definition of "denomination" that's unsuited to the question of church unity, what DIFFERENT definitions might we consider, that would be more relevant? I'd love for RTH to describe and list a few of THOSE. 🙂
Agreed wholeheartedly with this video. As a Catholic, though, I am completely willing to accept the 300-ish number, and I think the sting of the argument is still there: all of these groups accept Sola Scriptura yet they don't agree on even very basic and very important doctrines. Much respect to RtH for acknowledging this, though it must have taken a lot of humility not to give an attempt at rebuttal.
@@CPATuttle I think of you probe their beliefs enough, they probably fit quite well into some sort of Evangelical or Baptist denomination. Either way, the argument isn't affected.
@@lyterman Although, there’s a few splits in the Baptist church. Each Baptist church has their own set beliefs that are across every baptist church. Lutheran churches have the same doctrine across all Lutheran churches. Catholics same etc. However, Evangelical is similar to non-denominational that every church is separated by the others in beliefs. Each evangelical labeled churches and non-denominational are independent with different beliefs. Therefore each one of those churches are a denomination in itself that should be counted. Which would make the amount of denominations very high.
I am very glad to have been given this information. I am Catholic and I have heard these huge numbers for Protestant denominations. Clearly the methodology is very unclear and misleading (unintentionally).
Thank you for enlightening me on this important point. We shouldn't propogate unfair descriptions of others.
There are greater differences between Catholic congregations than some of these so called denominations- it is more a matter of governance than theology.
On separated churches and true Christians (from Our Lord's long discourse on the Book of Revelation dictated to Maria Valtorta during Sept-Nov, 1950; the following excerpts are from pp. 579 and 581, Notebooks 1945-1950): "Separated churches gave themselves a human constitution, preserving as regards the True Church only what they liked to preserve to call themselves 'Christian.' But to be Christians does not mean just to pray to Christ and preach Him in some way or other; it does not mean to be even more rigorist than true Catholics in certain matters. Yet that did not make them -- aside from rare exceptions -- 'Christians' but, on the contrary, made them 'anti-Christians.' To be Christians means to form part of the Mystical Body by belonging to the Church of Rome as Catholics and belonging to Christ by truly living as He taught and commanded to live. Otherwise, one is not a Christian in reality, not even if one is Catholic. Otherwise, people will be called Christians, but not be shoots nourished by Him. They will be detached shoots which, even if they are not completely dry because a natural tendency towards Goodness make them act as just ones, are nevertheless branches that have replanted themselves on their own, in a proud way, and have produced a plant standing apart which yields fox-grapes and not good ones. To bear abundant and holy fruit, they must be grafted onto the True Vine. This is valid for both the individual shoots and those forming a life apart, the separated churches which have given their own constitution, conceived by their founder -- a man and not the God-Man -- cannot have that totality of spiritual life which only belonging to the Mystical Body maintains and protects against ever-greater separations, not only from the Body itself, but from the Truth and Light which render secure the way leading from the earthly Church to the Heavenly One."
What we now see is everyone inventing their own church and calling it “non-denominational” so they have their own rules and beliefs. Are they each being counted as a denomination? Doubt it. That’s how they get around this statistic
Mad respect to the dude who did research on every single denomination. That is next level dedication
@YAJUN YUAN who has the time?
@YAJUN YUAN It took him 14 years, in 1982 traveling and learning all these denominations would take some financial backing. Today we have the internet and have been able to build off his research. But just a generation ago this would be next to impossible.
@@glennmartin802 yes
With some man or woman starting up their own protestant sect every week, these numbers are still low.
@@michelleishappy4036 better than all being united in deception
My guy Joshua coming out here with "I'm tired of seeing the same comment" video, so he systematically and politely tore it down lol
Thanks for the work brother!
I actually think this video is very well done. From a Catholic perspective, I think if we're going to make the argument about there being too many Protestant denominations, we have to come up with some different definition of denomination because this scholarly definition, while it is entirely accurate for its purpose, doesn't really do justice to what is meant here. We also know that in some cases new denominations are formed from splitting off of Old denominations because the old denominations have gone away from the original purpose of the denomination, and in some cases the original doctrine of the denomination itself.
From God to the World, to Flesh and The devil. (Also controlled by God) and back to another inspired reincarnation of the same thing.
Many of these are just independent congregations which don't have particularly distinctive beliefs. Given the way that religion has been treated recently, it is good if we have multiple groups which can't be easily compromised due to their sheer number.
What we now see is everyone inventing their own church and calling it “non-denominational” so they have their own rules and beliefs. Are they each being counted as a denomination? Doubt it. That’s how they get around this statistic
Yes, I am confused as to what a denomination, sect, or cult is. I find a lot of equivocal language gets bandied about.
@@haggismcbaggis9485 A denomination is an organisation - that's probably the simplest definition. Sect and cult used to refer to small groups, but cult is now used to refer to small groups or newer ones with authoritarian tendencies.
I’ve always found those numbers hard to believe but now I know the source and cause. Thank you for this valuable info!
I'd never heard those numbers, but would have intuitively believed them, given how many tiny denominations there are, where one group of churches splits off due to one or two important-to-them doctrinal differences.
And that's ignoring how the Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, etc have split for doctrinal (slavery vs not, women pastors vs not, gay pastors vs not, women pastors but not gay pastors, etc).
@@RonJohn63 even though it may not be strictly factual, given the facts that I do know, some of them thanks to what Joshua himself has said, it might as well be true. And it's a scandal.
@@HolyKhaaaaan it's a scandal if you think the Bible is the inspired/inerrant Word of the perfect omniscient/omnipotent Creator of the Universe that cares about each and every one of us.
If you realize that Man makes God in his own image, it's not just understandable but expected in an intellectually open society.
@@RonJohn63 It's not really that true. Many congregations are independent, but that is not the same as being a completely different denomination. I have been to independent churches which had almost identical beliefs to many others - the independence is political rather than theological.
@@thursoberwick1948 I refer to the little named denominations, not the mass of independents.
As a Catholic, I’m constantly annoyed by people saying this. The number is definitely overinflated. But I’d argue that the mere existence of any split in the church is a bad thing, so having even 5 denominations would be bad. Even two! Great video Joshua!
@YAJUN YUAN I am a Trent horn fan, but yes he has said something similar but I was aware of this point before he said that :)
But we are united in the Spirit
@@josueinhan8436 But some of them don't believe in the Holy Spirit nor in Jesus is God.
Book of Revelation mentions only 7 churches!
@YAJUN YUAN I would say a split is only necessary from our human perspective, and not from God's, since the Church was born at Pentecost thru the descent of the Holy Spirit, Who is One, along with the Father and the Son.
This may well be your best video yet. I feel smarter for having watched it. If I need to point out the diversity of Protestantism going forward, I will talk of "certainly dozens and probably hundreds of denominations." I will never use or accept tens of thousands ever again. Thank you for setting me straight.
My rough calculations are about 25 expressions of Protestantism for every 1 Catholic or Orthodox communion.
None of that takes into account the existence of independent churches ( Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant), variations in doctrine and/or practice, particularly who you hold fellowship with and how (table fellowship? pulpit fellowship? full sacramental recognition? etc). And the more diverse understandings there are of all of those things, the more separate groups of mutually identified Christians you are going to have.
Agree!
Lance, that was one of the most humble UA-cam comments I've ever read. Much respect.
Great video!! As a Catholic I have heard this cited so many times!! I had no idea about the methodology behind it!!
In the 1990s I was Vicar of a Cof E Church in a village of 1,000 inhabitants. There were 4 churches in the village. The Parish Church and 3 different Methodist churches......all calling themselves Methodist, but all very distinct from each other and apart from the name had little in common and no fellowship with each other. I remember listening to a Independent Preacher in the 1960s who would have nothing whatever to do with the Methodist Church and said about the then proposed union between Anglicans and Methodists, that "you cannot put two dead bodies together and get a living soul".
I believe that has been the case for a very long time, churches under the same umbrella but each one different. From what I've seen it all depends on the individual pastors who set the tone for that individual church building/congregation. I've seen the same thing in reformed churches also. In any large branch there's going to be variations like this. The major points remain the same but the emphasis (or lack) or "personality" is set by the pastor.
Our Lord said: I am the resurrection and the life (John 11:25). I am the way, the Truth, and the life (John 14:6). Remain in Me, as I remain in you, just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me (John 15:4). Unless you eat My Flesh and drink My Blood, you do not have life in you (John 6:53). Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood remains in Me and I in him (John 6:56). I never knew you, depart from Me, you evil doers (Matt 7:23). Do you believe all that? Then where do you get the Body and Blood of Our Lord to consume? Our Lord's Body and Blood are given freely to all members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, Our Lord founded on Peter (Matt 16:18), during the Sacrifice of the Mass offered, as He commanded (Luke 22:19-20, Matt 26:26-28), every day at every Catholic Church all around the world. If you do not belong to the Roman Catholic Church, what are you going to do since you need them to have life in you and to remain in Him? Why remain in separated churches founded by men, not God-man, which teach heresies and a partial truth, are withered branches separated from the Vine (John 15:5) and will be thrown into a fire (John 15:6)? Our Lord is the head of His Church (Eph 5:23) and He said: Whoever is not with Me is against Me, and whoever does not gather with Me, scatters (Matt 12:30). Can't you see protestants scatter in hundreds denominations? Open your eyes and come to the Light! Come to Our Lord's Church and meet Him there where He is waiting for you with open arms and loving heart to save you, giving Himself in His Body and Blood!
All of your videos are enlightening, but this one exceptionally so.
This is very helpful and it corrected me personally. I appreciate your work very much.
I very much appreciate this video. It is something I have been trying to express for sometime
I always believed that those huge numbers were bogus. But I had no idea of the basis for them. As Joshua stated: The numbers are what they are and are truthful, but they are not stating what most of us believed they stated. Thanks for this presentation.
Catholic here -- this was very helpful, insightful, and challenging. I have never cited the 45,000 number, because I could just smell the outlandishness of it.. I have cited the 20,000 before though, not knowing the full argument and how the numbers came to be. I will be more careful about it.
My other thoughts,
I disagree with the Catholic Register's saying that the number doesn't matter. I think it is an important case to make, though the numbers need to be cited more accurately... I know (from my religious studies degree) that actual numbers and even actual definitions (who/what is a Christian; who/what is a Buddhist, etc.) are always difficult if not impossible to make 100% accurately, and are more for the convenience of having coherent conversations...
Still, I would say the same 'denomination' in two different countries COULD be counted as two separate denominations IF the nature of that denomination/ecclesial aggregate does not meet internationally to make decisions for the whole.. In other words, Freewill Missionary Baptists in America might convene to keep the KJV, while Freewill Missionary Baptists in Canada or England might convene to introduce the NKJV or NIV, etc... But if the international body convenes to make decisions for all the churches under the same title, THEN they would definitely be one.
Many churches/parishes in the 'Church of Christ' do not have any ecclesiastical assembly, and literally that single church building, with it's own pastor and elders, are autocephalic, and do not answer to any larger body. Does that make every single Church of Christ building its own denomination? It's hard to say... "What constitutes a denomination?" might be a similar question to Joshua's video asking "What is a Christian?" Why is Confucianism a religion, but Aristotelian-ism is a philosophy? I have my own answers to these questions, just musing here, not trying to convince someone I'm right about everything.
Very thankful for this video, and for this channel
+Peace in Christ+
Another excellent analysis. Thank you for your diligent honest work.
videos like this remind why you're one of the best religious studies channels on youtube
Great video. I've long regarded people advocating for the Roman and Eastern church by using this argument as being lazy and intellectually dishonest. It immediately reveals that they aren't arguing in good faith and are just repeating slogans they don't understand.
Thank you for this video Joshua!
Thank you for this. I've made this exact argument as a Catholic, and you have taught me where it comes from, and all the nuance that it entails. Protestant denominations from different countries could technically be considered different, since they don't submit to one single authority, and can diverge on their beliefs at any point, which is the underlying problem with Protestantism as a whole. But this would imply we are assuming they WILL diverge at some point, even before they actually do it, which is a fallacy.
Note well, SP, it is a Protestant perspective on a Protestant assessment of a Protestant naming convention; so, yes, it is misleading .. and it is very improperly used in Catholic rhetorical apologetics. Nonetheless, it is, more or less, correct - in spirit if not yet seen in material data. Protestants .. and now Catholics who are eager to be more like them .. do tend to go for independent, self-governing, culturally related and thus nation state language definitions of themselves; some may share fairly similar or fundamental ideas/ teachings, but they do not submit to a higher (hierarchical) authority than their own preferred understanding of their own preferred Scripture.
That reality is the increasing multiplicity of 'churches' now being called denominations, rather than the older Anglican socio-historical-definition in use of a branch theory. The name that applied (in State records) was given to an officially recognised branch of the Christian (sic) church (by Anglican scholars, aware that they were not the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church but only a rather novel version of it).
In days past, if a Christian answered 'Christian' to the question 'What religion are you?' when put by a state official (in school, army, hospital, prison etc) he would get the nearest Anglican clergyman or a similar established church officer, Catholics had to answer Roman Catholic, the Orthodox were relatively few in number in English-speaking countries, in the USA Baptists/ Non-Conformists might get a Baptist preacher, but all others were lumped together en-mass as Protestant (i.e. Anglican, Presbyterian or Lutheran).
God bless. ;o)
@Prey R That is the distinction between a dependent mission and an independent church. A Phillipino Four-Square Gospel End-Time Rapture church may share many of the key features as its English-speaking missionary source in the US of A, but it is an independent entity. And thus, today, it is a denomination - the Philippines bit being an essential element in its own understanding (even if doing missionary work in the US among peoples of Philippine extraction there - with Tagalog scriptures, hymns, sermons etc).
I hope that helps.
God bless. ;o)
Thomists, Jesuits and Augustinians have different theology. So there are denominations inside the RCC. The question is what is true not who is in charge.
@@Phill0old There are also many Catholic rites.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 That is true and if Protestants are wrong because of the various denominations then the RCC is doubly wrong for, according to them, we all come from them.
Thank you for this episode. It clarifies much. Your research is helpful, entirely.
- R.
I appreciate this video greatly. Thank you
Thank you for the video. It was helpful in understanding how they came up with that number.
Thanks for this video. I am a theist who is rapidly abandoning my childhood Christian faith. After watching this, I realized that I too had been unfairly quoting these numbers without really understanding the basis for them. That is an issue I will fix going forward, thanks to your video.
That said, however, the underlying point I've been making has not changed, whether I rely upon the incorrect 45,000 number or the much more conservative 200 number. Christians always say that they are being led by the Holy Spirit--the Spirit of Truth. When I ask how can the Spirit of Truth can lead people in so many different directions, I get nothing but crickets. On rare occasion, someone will note that there is complete agreement on the "major" beliefs--which is clearly not true looking simply at the division between Catholics and Protestants. Interestingly, such people can never give me a criterial for delineating between "major" beliefs, for which the Holy Spirit will never lead in different directions, and "minor" beliefs (for which It apparently does?). Example: eternal security. Considered by some to be a "minor" doctrinal issue. Well, for me, the criteria for being able to lose your salvation should be every bit as important as the criteria for getting your salvation in the first place. Anyway, the point being, that even at 200, "that's a lotta denominations".
Thank you for clarifying this often misunderstood issue. There's so much uninformed opinion that circulates among Christians on how many denominations there are. Using national boundaries to count denominations is absurd. You have brought the light of reason and logic to this controversy. So very helpful. Sola Scriptura. Had the Catholic church not swerved from this truth, maybe we wouldn't have needed a Reformation.
Thank you for an informative and well done video. I sincerely appreciate you bringing clarity to this topic.
I live in a rural community of 4,300 people. We have 4 different Presbyterian churches. I wonder how examples like this would figure into the discussion about how many Protestant churches there really are. Also how do all the “non-denominational” churches fit into the calculation?
Keep up the good work.
"Also how do all the “non-denominational” churches fit into the calculation?"
They are still denominations for purposes of counting how many different kinds exist. I suspect each of these qualify as a denomination of its very own; meaning that the vast majority of this big number simply represents local churches that are not aligned with a parent denomination.
Fascinating. Joshua Lindsey offers a valid and sound presentation of the vast array of 'religious denominations' based on his insightful definition of the term 'denomination'. I recommend Joshua Lindsey as a reliable depth researcher on the fragmentation of religious denominations. Joshua also does not push his own religious nor political views. That alone should drive you to watching his presentations. Keep going Joshua. You provide factual research on exactly what various religious 'denominations' actually claim and believe.
Roger Oleson blogged on this extensively when he was compiling and editing the most recent edition of Mead's Handbook of Denominations. He made many of the points you've presented. I like your firmness in calling many of these fallacies "just plain wrong."
I have this argument often too! Thanks for sharing these facts!
can i just say how good that graphic at the end of the video is. great work.
Thanks for the clarity brought and reference to the works of David Barret. Well done
Thank you! I knew that the numbers seemed to be dramatically inflated, and now I know why!
Great video. I was wondering where these numbers came from but had no idea where to find the information
Very Informative. I have been hearing that 45,000 denomination number thrown around alot.
This explanation makes sense
They have done their homework, it’s a rhetorical tactic to throw people off.
As a Catholic, I was completely ignorant of that fact and used the big numbers because I thought they were true.
Now I know better, thank you for clearing up the misconception.
This was oddly satisfying and I'm not even Christian
You can find a denomination that suits you! Have you done the "find your denomination" online quiz?!
@@aclark903 💀
@@Swiftninjatrev 😳
This was excellent; thanks for the important information!!!!!
I love your channel. Keep doing it.
Excellent points! Thank you!
Thanks for the informative videos.
Good video!
To address some comments, what comprises the Catholic Church is several 'churches' - called Rites - in communion with the See of Rome. Therefore, it's inaccurate to say that the differences inside Catholicism would warrant different denominations. Roman Catholic is the largest church inside Catholicism, but there are Byzantine, Melkites, Syro-Malabar etc.
What may therefore make a denomination is the coherent dogma/theology that goes even deeper than individual practices of that particular church; What does this church say about the nature of Christ, the sacraments, Scripture, moral theology, as opposed to another within her apparent tradition?
Finally, I'm curious about the actual breakdown of the 300 denominations. Anecdotally, here in the US there are so many 'nondenominational' Christians that perhaps the encyclopedia is only counting formalized denominations.
Seems like denominationalism is a concept more pronounced among mainline Protestants, Orthodox, and Catholics, wherein it's trickier with contemporary Evangelicals and Pentecostals. How many times has the question "What denomination are you?" been met with "Oh, just Christian". Not very helpful.
“Churches called rites” This is inaccurate. There are several rites (Roman, Byzantine, East Syriac, West Syriac, Armenian, Coptic etc but there are over a dozen sui juris Byzantine rite churches. Rite ≠ church. For example, the Melkite Catholic Church is a Byzantine rite church
@@goaltender330 Yes, you're completely correct my mistake. I was just highlighting that different churches in the Catholic Church do not constitute new denominations as we understand them.
If you examine the doctrines and practices of for example the various Lutheran synods, Wesleyan churches, Reformed churches, mainstream churches, Evangelical churches they are all listed as separate churches. These churches have almost identical practices and doctrine. RC religious orders have wildly different practices and emphasis. Compare a Marian order who practices the total consecration to Mary ala Louis Montfort with a Jesuit order that practices Ignatian Spiritual Exercises. If these were Protestant groups all would consider these separate denominations. The word denomination is applied more strictly to Protestant groups than Catholic ones inflating the numbers.
I don't know exactly, but I suspect that, for the 300 number, they would condense the nondenominational churches into a small number that teach mostly the same things. Something like "Nondenom, Charismatic," "Nondenom, Baptist-ish," etc. Or Methodist churches into maybe 2 denomination-clusters: "Methodist, Mainline" and "Methodist, Evangelical."
I don't think that 300 is any better from a Catholic / Orthodox perspective. I think what we're interested in is how many groups there are that aren't unified to each other as one body. This is a very tricky thing to define. There are some groups that may indeed be unified to each other despite looking very different. And there are some mainline 'communions' that mean very little - groups that are certainly not unified to each other. I don't know how you could define this qualitatively - much less study it. 300 is probably about how many denominational categories there are though.
Precisely!
The Catholic Church in the USA has asserted each diocese/archdiocese is independent when defending against clerical abuse lawsuits! Meaning the Catholics are technically part of the problem of "there is too many churches :("
@@crownpenguin9180 Lel, the Catholic critique of this fractionalization and schism isn't that there are too many bodies identified as independent according to secular law.
There are only two denominations if you're talking unity. Christian and non-Christian. Christians are all brethren. We have Jesus to unite us. Catholics have the pope.
I just heard this number quoted by an Orthodox priest this past weekend. Thank you for the video, research, and explanation.
Excellent video. You have yourself a new subscriber sir! Praying for you.
Thank you, Dylan!
Incredible Christian scholarship. Thank you for sharing your incredible knowledge. Truly impressive!!!
Fantastic work!
Excellent analysis.
Seems as if this was brewing for awhile
Learn a lot from this video as a Muslim very well made thank you. Is there any proper academic work on how many different versions of the bible or even additional books such as Book of Mormon these denominations use?
Great video. People, and the media, all too often use statistics with no true understanding of what they mean, whether out of ignorance or deception.
I always thought that 33,000 christian denominations was very much too high of a count.
300 sounds like a much more realistic number.
I think the more interesting quote is "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs." I heard a pastor argue that the real division is more akin to this type of number. Also, I really like that the problem is division, not of how great or small the division is.
I would love to know what those 6 blocs are.
@@joshuas1834 i think they are:
Eastern Orthodoxy
Oriental Orthodoxy (Myaphisite)
Nestorian Churches
Catholicism
Protestantism
Restorationism
and any christian denomination can be classified into one of these
and there us the going to church and belief, going to church because of social pressure, going to church because of habit, going to church as they have coffee and cake afterwards.
This is the first video I've ever seen from Ready to Harvest, and wow isn't it packed with juice!
If we judge all the groups that have some kind of full external fellowship with each other as one denomination, whether they call it communion, full fellowship, or whatever, it would do a lot to pair down the numbers. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod has full altar and puplit fellowship with the American Association of Lutheran churches and thus they can be counted as one body for the purposes of judging the state of division in Christendom, for example.
If you surveryed each eccesliatical tradition and started with counting the big players, then moved down to all the micro-sized sectarian groups, you still wouldn't have more than a few dozen denominational blocs for each camp.
There might be a full thousand seperate denominational blocs out there, but that's if you include all the ones with a dozen congregations apiece.
Very enlightening,
Thank you ...
Finally can we put this myth to rest for once.
Great work Dude!
Very well done work
God bless you so much
This is something I had to address quite a few times. I'm sending people your way when I hear this absurd claim. It's clear, to the point, and meets the high quality I've come to expect from this channel.
I'd be very interested in seeing a video or series of videos on the various groups from the Pre/Early/Ancient/Medieval eras of Christianity.
Adamites, Arianism, Ebionites, Elcesaites, Marcionism, Nazarenes, Bardaisanites, Basilideans, Carpocratianism, Nicolatians, Sethianism, Simonians, Valentinianism, Catharism, Donatism, Paulicianism, Brethren of the Free Spirit, Dulcinians, Bogomilism, Agonoclita, Petrobrusians, Strigolniki, Tondrakians, Lollardy, Henricans, Friends of God, et al.
Brilliant!! Why in the world would anyone ever count the number of denominations by country?
It seems very deceptive to me.
In the video JL explains that those who compiled the lists had the scholarly interest in determining the number of denominations within each country and how many adherents for each denomination. They were not setting themselves the task to give the number of denominations for the whole world. No doubt, someone with a lot of time to spare could derive a fairly accurate global figure from the data in the book
Some are just different legal names in the respective countries when they are recognized by that country. So, it may be helpful when studying the membership or number of congregations of a church when comparing sources that may use the different legal titles. You need to think of them as rows in one big spreadsheet that have not been combined as a pivot table by a common denominator. This video is helpful to remind people to do that extra step when quoting a number.
Well done! Thanks.
Interesting Video! I was wondering if I can get a page number for Barrett’s quote explaining his definition of Denominations in the encyclopedia? It would help me for my research for sermons.
great video our former pastor left the merged because it wasn't independant enough for him a lot of people thought it was still SBC
The "One true church" trolls are like the atheist trolls a lot of times
Why do you say that?
Thanks I've wondered about that
The old adage seems to fit.
Figures don't lie, but sometimes liars figure.
The UMC has one connection but many national conferences that have unique books of Discipline based on their culture. It's impossible to maintain a set belief system within a global communion. There is no way the UMC or any other communion can have consistency across international borders. I like the families of systemic theologies that the Encyclopedia uses. It makes it easier to do the academic work. Theologians are not all pastors. Some of us are academic and these larger and smaller subsets makes researching easier.
How do you count independent churches... like Baptist who are autonomous.. and can be part of multiple fellowships.
I've asked this earlier, but I really would like to know what a Christian American thinks of the many many reformed churches in the Netherlands. Almost all of these churches did split from the original Reformed Church of The Nederlands (nowadays known as: The Protestant Church of The Netherlands (PKN). Could you please make a video about these churches?
As you have noted there are about 300 ecclesial traditions. I am guessing if you identified who is in altar and pulpit fellowship the number would drop to less than 100. as worldwide there are really only a few Lutheran groups. for example, those in the LWF, those in the ILC, and the rest would be splinter groups of nominal membership but even those would not be more than a half dozen or so.
On which page of which edition is the quote about 300 groups?
I own the second set of Encyclopedias mentioned.
Great video. But, what is the best and most up-to-date source of the number of Christian denominations in the US? One that would include the Global Methodist Church which just started, as example.
@YAJUN YUAN The Global Methodist Church is a split from the United Methodist Church. I think it formed officially on May 1, 2022.
@YAJUN YUAN But there was a split, no?
Great video!
One thing that you wouldn't expect to be controversial about these numbers is how many countries there are (which you would expect was simple but it is not), this 243 value is the largest I have ever seen suggested. The lowest number that is usually accepted is 196 (UN members + Vatican), and the largest I had seen previously was 205 (which is used by the Olympics).
Right. In this area it can vary because countries merge but that does not mean that the churches do. (Wales, Scotland and England all tend to have separate church bodies, and are different countries in that sense but only counted once by the UN)
Churches may also serve countries that are not recognized (e.g. Taiwan, Tibet)
Great new video on this from Map Men ua-cam.com/video/3nB688xBYdY/v-deo.html
@@ReadyToHarvest What a strange overlap of worlds, I wouldn't have called this. I saw it earlier, they always make good material. Thanks for the thought though, especially on a post this old.
Possibly your best insight on the supposed multiplication of divisions in Christianity.
Another point that's not mentioned here. In Lutheranism (at least) there are dozens of different denominations across the world that may have different names, but are grouped together in international councils and have fellowship with one another. The Lutheran World Federation (in fellowship with the ELCA in the States), the International Lutheran Council (in fellowship with the Missouri Synod in the States) and the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Conference (with the Wisconsin Synod) are the three largest.
Let’s not forget that there are over twenty Catholic Churches. So that would be over 4000 Catholic denominations.
What are the "6 major ecclesiastico-cultural blocs"? google doesn't seem to be giving me anything
Excellent video, as usual.
Although I think the Catholic Church is one denomination, it is important to note that the universal church consists of 23 rites (of which 22 ordain married men to the priesthood). Each rite is in communion with the Pope in Rome, but each has its distinctive liturgy and discipline.
The Roman Rite (which generally requires priests to be celibate) is the most well known, but even it differs from one nation to another. In the United States, which has the First Amendment, the Pope has complete freedom in selecting bishops. In other countries, he needs the approval of the local government (e.g. Concordat of 1801, which is still in effect in Alsace-Lorraine). In Argentina, the bishop must be a citizen of Argentina. If the church receives financial support from the government, that gives the government the leverage it needs to enforce its requirements.
Dioceses do not cross national boundaries. Prior to the Mexican War, the diocese of the Two Californias included Alta California and Baja California, and the bishop’s seat was at Monterey. When the United States conquered Alta California (the present-day State of California), the diocese, at the insistence of the Mexicans, was split along national borders. Fast and abstinence rules, and the designation of holy days of obligation (on which Catholics are obliged to hear Mass) differ from one country to another, or in some cases, from diocese-to-diocese within the same country). Some dioceses observe Epiphany on January 6 and the Ascension on Thursday (40 days after Easter) while others move them to the nearest Sunday, since many Catholics are unable to come to church during the week. Many Eastern Catholics still observe the Julian Calendar when determining days like Christmas and Easter.
While none of the foregoing, in my view, causes the Catholic church to be more than one denomination, it does demonstrate that the church is not as uniform or monolithic as some believe it is or, perhaps, would like it to be.
" 23 rites (of which 22 ordain married men to the priesthood"
This is technically true but it should be noted that while priests can stay married upon ordination they cannot marry after they have been ordained. Also, the prohibition on marriage applies fully to bishops.
@@ben8557 You are correct. Note that I said "ordain married men to the priesthood," not that priests may marry. The priest must be married at the time of the ordination. If the wife dies, he may not remarry. If he is unmarried at the time of ordination, he must remain so. If he has any hope of becoming a bishop, he needs to be unmarried at the time of ordination and remain so.
The historical reason for this rule is that bishops were selected from among monks at the monastery, whereas the men ordained as priests came from a more general population.
I was explaining all this to a United Methodist friend once, and he said, "at least you do not have the problem of dating clergy." :)
You always do a very job on these videos. They’re easy to understand. Can you do a video on Biker Churches?
First I've ever heard of Biker Churches.
@@sorenpx ua-cam.com/video/knInkydi6kM/v-deo.html That should explain a little bit better than I can.
Interesting, I too have never heard of a biker church.
@@pixieburton3131 It’s a good way to get the Gospel to bikers. Bikers reaching bikers, speaking their own language to them and making a strong brotherhood.
@YAJUN YUAN Something like that.
So is there a definitive number for how many groups there are that believe the fundamentals of the Christian faith? One that excludes groups that obviously don't believe in one or more of the fundamentals (such as the Divinity of Christ) and counting each group only once, regardless of how many countries they are represented in?
Part of the problem is that there is no unified definition of what constitutes a "Christian fundamental". There divinity of Christ is probably one, but who is to say, and on what grounds?
@@HolyKhaaaaan We can use the definition the Catholic Church uses.
I heard the 45,000 number used tonight and I called BS immediately. Thanks for this thorough explanation!
I think even with the 300 theologically distinct groups makes sense when you start to think in terms of exponentiality. Consider simply having 8 different questions, each with only 2 possible answers. That alone gets you to 256 possible permutations. Many theological questions have multiple biblically defensible right answers.
A consideration- churches in different countries/regions take on local traditions which may or may not adhere to mainline statements of faith.
Can you do a video on how many denominations there actually are
Thank you for this video which provides some useful explanation. I will readily admit that I don't get particularly excited about such wild numbers - they are unhelpful and irrelevant in the context of each of us loving one another as God loves us. That there are different forms of expression of Christian belief across the spectrum of Christ-centred denominations, is clearly true. I converted to Christian Orthodox some 15 years ago and, for me at least, it was and still is the right decision for me. I do not reject other Christ-centred denominations simply because they are different or "not Orthodox". Jesus Christ knows who his people are, and whose heart is in the right place, regardless of any denomination. Take the Good Samaritan: His heart was in the right place. Do you think Jesus would reject him from His kingdom?
Do a video on the Reformed Presbyterian Church (Covenanters).
I think all that splintering isn't much of a problem. With modern Catholicism, you have people who openly ignore or disagree with church teachings identifying and even taking positions of leadership within the church. With Protestant denominations, the dissenters would just go form their own church, thus ensuring a greater degree of internal theological consistency.
My attitude toward Catholics is: of the however many different denominations you claim there are out there, at least one of them is likely to be right. And you not wanting to do the work of looking into the theology of what they all actually believe is not an excuse to just default to the one that claims to have always been united even though that's manifestly not the case.
@@RepublicofE Honestly, there's a real chance none of them are 100% correct on every topic, since the Bible is vague on certain things such as the importance of Baptism, and any claims of a "perfect tradition" being demonstrably untrue, like for instance, how Catholicism's view on slavery shifted from accepting it to calling it a evil over 1600 years. Not to suggest that's a unique problem for them, Protestant denominations wrestled with the issue too, but it's just one easy example how Catholicism changed its doctrines.
@@RepublicofE not really
Paul clearly stated in 1 Cor. 1 that God's Church is supposed to speak the same thing, practice the same traditions, and have the same judgement. There is 0 way that anyone can argue that a multitude of disagreeing "Christian" groups can all be worshiping the same God that inspired Paul to write those words.
I suggest the video author do a video on sedevacantism, especially the Dimond brothers apostolate. It is an important topic to even concieve the current state of Catholicism with sense of proportion.
I'm fortunate to have known this fact for a long time, but it still never brought me comfort. I still see myself being on the wrong side of history being a protestant. I'm going to my first Orthodox divine liturgy next week and I'm excited.
Good for you. My husband and I journeyed through the evangelical world and have ended up in the Anglican church. (ACNA) we feel like we have reached home and have experienced a deeper conversion. The liturgy is ancient and we worship in the context of the Word and Sacrament every Sunday. Blessings on you as you worship with our Orthodox Brothers and sisters.
I would argue that the culture from your country has a huge impact on how you live and understand your religion, this is why I would count different denominations for different countries with strong cultural influences.
Thank you for correcting me.
This is one going to get a lot of referrals from me because I hear this claim a lot.
From my (Catholic) perspective, I feel like the way that denomination should be defined is more in the realm of their school of thought, and that different organizations (who may hold some different practices or views, but generally fall under the same general school of thought) should be considered Churches, Organizations, Rites, etc. For example, one might say there is One Roman Catholic Denomination (I know many Catholics, including myself, are opposed to calling ourselves a denomination at all, but for the purposes of this idea, that is the language I would use across all traditions) one Roman Catholic Church (One could possibly go further with this, and say there is one Catholic Denomination, but consists of 23 Churches/Rites) or one may say there are two Pentecostal Denominations (there may be more with distinguishing features that would notably separate them, but standard Pentecostals and Oneness Pentecostals are the only one's I recall at the moment), but a great many different Pentecostal Churches (not even bothering looking that one up).
Even if two Churches that would, under this method, be grouped as the same denomination, I think it's more genuine to categorize and label them this way. Every Lutheran Church follows the teachings of Martin Luther. Multiple Lutheran Organizations may have different agreements on those teachings, or on things he never taught about, or on things he was vague about, but the main point stands that their foundation is in Luther (obviously they would claim their basis is in Scripture, but such a claim is unhelpful for the explicit purpose of categorization)
With categorization being far from a science, obviously you can't have a single, all defining list, and some Organizations may be far from falling into any camp, and belong in their own. This is fine too- being heavily distinct from any denomination, for the purposes of this way of categorization, makes you a denomination in and of yourself. I believe Swedenborgians would be an example of this, but I don't know enough about them and who they influenced to say that with authority
Regardless, I feel a big issue in how we understand the number of denominations is because of that unclearness. There is one Anglican denomination. There is one Lutheran, one Catholic, one... idk, Methodist denomination, just many of these have several organizations (some of whom may claim to be the only true variant of that denomination, but even then, exist within that same shared tradition, and thus should not rightly be called denominations in their own right
What are those 6 major blocs?
3:29 Note how two of the three highlighted comments are taking the (already vastly overinflated by the methodology) estimates for the number of Christian denominations *for the entire world,* and claiming that these are the number of denominations *in the USA alone.*
@Ready to Harvest: 👏 Great video! 👏 But, I'd love to see a follow-up that addresses the topic of how many denominations there'd be if a TRULY RELEVANT definition of the term "denomination" was used.
Which definition? Well, to answer THAT, we have to ask, "truly relevant to what question or dispute?" The question or dispute determines the definition; and the definition produces the number of "denominations."
Here are two examples:
EXAMPLE #1: Unified Church Discipline Authority:
Catholics like to stress the point that, in Matthew 18, the procedure for Church Discipline is intended by Jesus to work worldwide, for the whole Church. They argue that apart from such a system of authority, no real unity can exist, not even in principle (because all borderlines-of-unity would logically be based on ephemeral agreement which might be lost five minutes later, and no standard can possibly exist to distinguish required dogmas from matters-of-indifference).
By this standard, the definition of a "denomination" is clear: Two local bodies belong to the same denomination if their system of church discipline permits them to appeal discipline cases to a common judicial process, with a common final authority for settling each case, and if the final judgment of each case will be honored by both local bodies. (Example: If one Presbyterian congregation denies communion, or permission to teach Sunday School, to Person X because Person X holds to an incorrect soteriology (e.g. "Federal Vision"), and if he appeals his case to the local "session," and they affirm the initial decision, and the guy gets mad and changes to a different Presbyterian congregation on the other side of town, and that different congregation upholds the decision of the local "session" BECAUSE they consider the judgment of the "session" authoritative over them, THEN those two congregations belong to the same denomination. But if the second Presbyterian congregation either disagrees, or decides independently to agree, then they DON'T belong to the same denomination, for Matthew 18 purposes.
This, as anyone can see, yields a number of "denominations" which is way, way HIGHER than 33,000. Nearly every Baptist congregation would be considered its own "denomination" for these purposes. And, please note: That REALLY IS a definition that a Catholic would find relevant. In the Catholic view, Jesus' teaching in Matthew 18 is that "if you refuse to listen EVEN TO THE CHURCH (meaning, the One Church, worldwide) you can be treated as a heathen or publican (throughout the One Church, worldwide)." By that definition, there are probably twenty million Protestant groups, a dozen or so Orthodox and Anglican groups, a few pseudo-Catholic groups who aren't in communion with Rome (e.g. the Utrecht group and certain sedevacantists), and exactly one Catholic group in communion with Rome.
EXAMPLE #2: Sufficient Doctrinal Agreement To Permit Teaching/Preaching:
On the other hand, a definition that Protestants might prefer would focus on doctrinal agreement: "We are the same denomination IF, and ONLY IF, my congregation is willing for you to preach and teach the same doctrines, with the same level of emphasis, in my congregation as you do in yours." By that standard, liberal Protestants and conservative Protestants within the same tradition of ecclesial governance and sacramentology (e.g. Presbyterianism) would be different denominations, but any two conservative Presbyterian groups would be considered the same denomination, even if their systems of church disciplines terminated in different "sessions."
All this, of course, leads to questions about what standard Christians SHOULD be using to discern whether any given person or group is functionally in a state of unity with their own group.
But that's an entirely-separate, and equally-complex, question! So let's prescind from it, for the moment.
The point of THIS post is to identify, and call for, the NEXT STEP in this Ready to Harvest discussion: Given that the 33,000 number comes from a weird definition of "denomination" that's unsuited to the question of church unity, what DIFFERENT definitions might we consider, that would be more relevant?
I'd love for RTH to describe and list a few of THOSE. 🙂
I agree with this video with respect. I have criticized this number years ago due to obvious "nationalistic" tendency in the definition used.
Agreed wholeheartedly with this video. As a Catholic, though, I am completely willing to accept the 300-ish number, and I think the sting of the argument is still there: all of these groups accept Sola Scriptura yet they don't agree on even very basic and very important doctrines. Much respect to RtH for acknowledging this, though it must have taken a lot of humility not to give an attempt at rebuttal.
And how do you count people starting their own church and calling it “non-denominational” ?
@@CPATuttle I think of you probe their beliefs enough, they probably fit quite well into some sort of Evangelical or Baptist denomination. Either way, the argument isn't affected.
@@lyterman Although, there’s a few splits in the Baptist church. Each Baptist church has their own set beliefs that are across every baptist church. Lutheran churches have the same doctrine across all Lutheran churches. Catholics same etc. However, Evangelical is similar to non-denominational that every church is separated by the others in beliefs. Each evangelical labeled churches and non-denominational are independent with different beliefs. Therefore each one of those churches are a denomination in itself that should be counted. Which would make the amount of denominations very high.
Thank you. I've heard this so many times from Orthodox Christians. Better to set the record straight