Having the probe gives you so many options. On the first op drill or mill the hole all the way thru the stock. Program the second op to touch off on the center of that hole. This will give you better alignment to the first side. Great video! Keep them coming!!
Thanks. Others have pointed that out as an option. Given that my end mill wasn't long enough to go all the way through, and a drill can wander, I think the option some others have pointed out would be better in this case: probe the center rather than a corner.
Actually my experience is that probing the outside edges is definitely more accurate by about 5-10 microns. I find that if I bore a hole and then measure it, it's typically a few microns off from where it "should be". So I tend to use the "drill a hole" trick as only a way to get an estimate of the alignment.
I think everything we are manufacturing now uses the "top hat" method. It's always interesting to see how others are tackling probing and edge finding... Also, it's interesting to see if they are probing the hat or the remaining stock. Fusion has come a long way in their simulations over the past 2-3 years to show multiple work offsets in a series of operations.
To get rid of the stock size problem set you WCS to the middle of the part and have the probe touch Z then the 4 sides. The part will always be aligned as long as your vise is trammed.
You're totally right on programming to the center of the part but if your stock isn't cut perfectly square when you flip it, you're going to be off. Drill or mill the hole through the fist op and and probe the hole on the second. It will be dead on. If you want the Z to be perfect program off the bottom of the part for the second op and touch off on your parallel. Make sure your part is down all the way!!
David Loomes on Facebook pointed out to me that I could have used the center. I do plan to try that out in the future. As to the top, I set Z zero to be the bottom. I have G55 set to the piranha jaws and G54 set to the top of the parallels. That will give me the final thickness I want.
Another thing to do would be to make your new block a 90. Not knowing if it would be of any benefit. The one you made is so nice and clean. Exclent job.
Two easy ways to deal with a top hat, set your bottom height on some holes in op 1 as stock bottom, and pick up a WCS off a hole (use the selected contour option when setting WCS in fusion setup) Or, put a known true block in the vice, against a good stop and probe that in X and Y, use the jaw/parralell as the z height, then you can swap to the real part and the fixed jaw and stop won't have moved, and neither will the z height of the jaw.
I use the back left corner of my vise as my X Y location and I hold a 123 block there to line up my stock with the edge, then when you flip a symmetrical part like this you don’t need to re probe the raw stock, the finished stock is perfectly set on the edge of the vise.
Im from uk and use both imerial and metric. Just multiply or divide by 25.4 to convert between the 2. 0.001 is one thousands of an inch so 0.01 is 1 hundreths 0.1 is 1 tenth. Additionally 0.0001 is 10throusands of an inch. multiply each of these by 25.4 to get metric conversion.
Yes, you do. I've been using it today to make a new mold, and it's so nice. I had to put a mold half back in to fix and issue, and it was so fast and easy with the probe.
Running max depth of cut and minimum width of cut will be better for tool life management and reducing tool wear. Cutting only on the tip of the end mill rather than using the entire flute length actually increases spindle wear - not a problem with the conservative cuts you are making, but you can be just as conservative doing something like max DOC for the cut/tool and very minimal WOC, something less than 5%
I'm not sure your overall process here is optimal? Are you clear that you can set your G5x to somewhere on the part, yet probe the stock? This works fine (unless your post processor is busted. I had to fix mine first...i think Haas is ok though) Another tip is that you can probe to refine a G5x location estimate. Even mid setup. So i sometimes flip my part, probe the top hat stock to get an approx position, mill off the top hat and then reprobe the part to get it bang on. One problem i notice with this technique is avoiding burrs distorting the measurement. I've only got a tiny 2mm probe tip, so more than a tiny burr throws off my measurement. If this is a production part then I've has reasonable success running a zero size chamfer to trim most of the burr. However I've had better success with adjusting the facemill direction to avoid a burr on the edges i want to measure... So i usually use bottom centre/centre for op1. Then flip it and use bottom centre, but hard up against the fixed jaw for op2. This works because the Y is measured from the fixed jaw. Fusion had no issue setting the WCS to the centre of the part by probing the right edge (say). ie it knows how to offset the WCS based on the model.
Also you can do rotations with the probe. I recently did a circular part that needed clocking precisely when flipped to chamfer the through holes. Rather than make the fixture have alignment pins I just measure a bore and then compute the rotation. Add a G68 to rotate the WCS (I needed to do a little bit of custom post work to allow this within Fusion for my post) The probe is very powerful. It's great for finding WCS locations, however it's even more powerful as a work flow tool to simplify setups!
you can make yourself your life a bit easier by changing the Setup of OP2 and OP3 to use the stock from the previous operation. By activating rest machining as well you will also get a good simulation result at the end of the last OP.
It was slightly different from the previous operation, as I made it shorter to account for the hat that I milled off in op 2. As someone else pointed out, I could have combined ops 2 and 3, which would have been easier.
@@JohnSL Thats not a issue at all. in OP1 you do everything the way you did. In OP2 use the stock from the previous operations with continue rest machining and take of the hat. In OP3 you use the same settings, by this it will continue with the result from OP2, which should be exactly what you have on the mill at this point in time. The only situation where this method has some issues are situations where you have some stock cut off with a saw or on the lathe or 4th axis. As the Stock that you have cut off will transfer to the next Setup. You can cheat a bit and insert a dummy operation to remove this just for the simulation.... I use this method a lot (minus the automatic probing as my DIY machine does not support it). Typically I don't know my the correct stock size when doing the initial programming as I make a lot of stuff in the Hobby area from scrap parts. Having only one point to change made my life so much easier. The rest is just regenerating the code and you are good to go.
Do you probe the vise into location first, in order to use the probe automatically in fusion? If the vise is positioned correctly then seems you could probe without worrying much. Also, how did you set the Z on the parallels, do you just use a 123 block on top of patellae or do you probe the bottom of the vise and then add the parallel height? Thanks!
I set the Z separately, as that doesn't change from one job to the other. With the 1mm diameter probe tip, I can easily pick up the top of the jaws and parallels. Since I use either the jaws or the same parallels for almost every job I do, I just have the top of the jaws set in G55 and the top of the parallels in G54.
I'm imagining for the third setup you can use the next G like G55 or G56 etc to use the model as the WC instead of the stock volume. Maybe I'm mistaken?
Yes, that's what I was trying to do. However, the probe was not moving far enough "left" from the camera's view along the Y axis when I did that. As a result, it picked up a point on the curve rather than the side of the part. I could have made the offset larger, which would have eliminated this issue. Or I could simply have combined the 2nd and 3rd operation, while still using two probings.
Question around the 3:16 min mark you are clicking between operations and its showing the simulated stock at that point of the operation clicked. How do you set that view up I can only see simulated stock in simulation mode not just clicking around in my operations? Thanks!
This is done using the toolbar at the bottom of the screen shown in the manufacturing workspace. There is an icon for Stock visibility. I've checked the option called Display in process stock. F8 (on Windows) will toggle this.
@@JohnSL I had turned that on before and there was no effect. I found that you have to go under the utility tab and enable it there as well. Thanks D&J
I feel like I've just viewed something important that I don't quite understand or know how to implement. How is the results of the probing actually utilized- that is, used to adjust the orientation of the part within the CAM environment? I wonder, too, if there is a way to not just identify the extremes of a part, but its orientation- say the part is oriented 9 degrees off of square, might the probe be used to apprehend how the part is oriented, and adjust the model in CAM to match?
There are a lot more capabilities available via Fusion 360 with the Manufacturers Extension, such rotating the coordinate system to adjust for part orientation. I do not have that extension yet. As to what this is doing, it's updating the work coordinate system, such as G54, with a new X/Y origin so that the milling will be aligned with the actual X/Y position of the part rather than the initial, less accurate coordinate that I set just by eye.
@@JohnSL Oh- I see. Is this dependent on having two faces perpendicular to the X and Y axis? Or might you have a jelly-bean shaped part, and take a great number of samples until you located points at the most extreme edges of those axis? Is what you speak of not unlike zeroing to the corner of stock using a locator plate?
That also works. If I'm using a circular feature as reference, I want to make sure it's accurate. A hole that is drilled won't be accurate. One that is milled should be. It's been a while since I worked on this, but what I recall is that the end mill I used to make the holes wasn't long enough to go all the way through.
Having the probe gives you so many options. On the first op drill or mill the hole all the way thru the stock. Program the second op to touch off on the center of that hole. This will give you better alignment to the first side. Great video! Keep them coming!!
Thanks. Others have pointed that out as an option. Given that my end mill wasn't long enough to go all the way through, and a drill can wander, I think the option some others have pointed out would be better in this case: probe the center rather than a corner.
Actually my experience is that probing the outside edges is definitely more accurate by about 5-10 microns. I find that if I bore a hole and then measure it, it's typically a few microns off from where it "should be". So I tend to use the "drill a hole" trick as only a way to get an estimate of the alignment.
I think everything we are manufacturing now uses the "top hat" method. It's always interesting to see how others are tackling probing and edge finding... Also, it's interesting to see if they are probing the hat or the remaining stock. Fusion has come a long way in their simulations over the past 2-3 years to show multiple work offsets in a series of operations.
To get rid of the stock size problem set you WCS to the middle of the part and have the probe touch Z then the 4 sides. The part will always be aligned as long as your vise is trammed.
You're totally right on programming to the center of the part but if your stock isn't cut perfectly square when you flip it, you're going to be off. Drill or mill the hole through the fist op and and probe the hole on the second. It will be dead on. If you want the Z to be perfect program off the bottom of the part for the second op and touch off on your parallel. Make sure your part is down all the way!!
@@cre8itgroup903 since the part has been fully machined the original stock wont matter.
David Loomes on Facebook pointed out to me that I could have used the center. I do plan to try that out in the future. As to the top, I set Z zero to be the bottom. I have G55 set to the piranha jaws and G54 set to the top of the parallels. That will give me the final thickness I want.
@@JohnSL I use a z probe to set the top of the part and subtract the stock. I use a G92 on the bottom of your offsets to drop any remaining amount.
Another thing to do would be to make your new block a 90. Not knowing if it would be of any benefit.
The one you made is so nice and clean. Exclent job.
Part came out really nice.
Two easy ways to deal with a top hat, set your bottom height on some holes in op 1 as stock bottom, and pick up a WCS off a hole (use the selected contour option when setting WCS in fusion setup)
Or, put a known true block in the vice, against a good stop and probe that in X and Y, use the jaw/parralell as the z height, then you can swap to the real part and the fixed jaw and stop won't have moved, and neither will the z height of the jaw.
I like it, programming, and machining program after :)
Thanks!
I use the back left corner of my vise as my X Y location and I hold a 123 block there to line up my stock with the edge, then when you flip a symmetrical part like this you don’t need to re probe the raw stock, the finished stock is perfectly set on the edge of the vise.
Being from the UK I appreciate the metric conversions
I can never get my head around how 10thousandths of a inch and so on compared to simple 0.025mm
Im from uk and use both imerial and metric. Just multiply or divide by 25.4 to convert between the 2.
0.001 is one thousands of an inch so 0.01 is 1 hundreths 0.1 is 1 tenth. Additionally 0.0001 is 10throusands of an inch. multiply each of these by 25.4 to get metric conversion.
nice work as always John. I need to get a probe system!
Yes, you do. I've been using it today to make a new mold, and it's so nice. I had to put a mold half back in to fix and issue, and it was so fast and easy with the probe.
Running max depth of cut and minimum width of cut will be better for tool life management and reducing tool wear. Cutting only on the tip of the end mill rather than using the entire flute length actually increases spindle wear - not a problem with the conservative cuts you are making, but you can be just as conservative doing something like max DOC for the cut/tool and very minimal WOC, something less than 5%
I'm not sure your overall process here is optimal? Are you clear that you can set your G5x to somewhere on the part, yet probe the stock? This works fine (unless your post processor is busted. I had to fix mine first...i think Haas is ok though)
Another tip is that you can probe to refine a G5x location estimate. Even mid setup. So i sometimes flip my part, probe the top hat stock to get an approx position, mill off the top hat and then reprobe the part to get it bang on.
One problem i notice with this technique is avoiding burrs distorting the measurement. I've only got a tiny 2mm probe tip, so more than a tiny burr throws off my measurement. If this is a production part then I've has reasonable success running a zero size chamfer to trim most of the burr. However I've had better success with adjusting the facemill direction to avoid a burr on the edges i want to measure...
So i usually use bottom centre/centre for op1. Then flip it and use bottom centre, but hard up against the fixed jaw for op2. This works because the Y is measured from the fixed jaw. Fusion had no issue setting the WCS to the centre of the part by probing the right edge (say). ie it knows how to offset the WCS based on the model.
Also you can do rotations with the probe. I recently did a circular part that needed clocking precisely when flipped to chamfer the through holes. Rather than make the fixture have alignment pins I just measure a bore and then compute the rotation. Add a G68 to rotate the WCS (I needed to do a little bit of custom post work to allow this within Fusion for my post)
The probe is very powerful. It's great for finding WCS locations, however it's even more powerful as a work flow tool to simplify setups!
good stuff! I really enjoyed.
you can make yourself your life a bit easier by changing the Setup of OP2 and OP3 to use the stock from the previous operation. By activating rest machining as well you will also get a good simulation result at the end of the last OP.
It was slightly different from the previous operation, as I made it shorter to account for the hat that I milled off in op 2. As someone else pointed out, I could have combined ops 2 and 3, which would have been easier.
@@JohnSL Thats not a issue at all.
in OP1 you do everything the way you did. In OP2 use the stock from the previous operations with continue rest machining and take of the hat. In OP3 you use the same settings, by this it will continue with the result from OP2, which should be exactly what you have on the mill at this point in time.
The only situation where this method has some issues are situations where you have some stock cut off with a saw or on the lathe or 4th axis. As the Stock that you have cut off will transfer to the next Setup. You can cheat a bit and insert a dummy operation to remove this just for the simulation....
I use this method a lot (minus the automatic probing as my DIY machine does not support it). Typically I don't know my the correct stock size when doing the initial programming as I make a lot of stuff in the Hobby area from scrap parts. Having only one point to change made my life so much easier. The rest is just regenerating the code and you are good to go.
Great seeing the progress on the small Arburg. Is your 100U next on the list to fix up? Greetings from Germany!
It's on the backlog, but not near the top yet. I need to get the C4b fully running and then finish the watch project before I can get to the 100.
Do you probe the vise into location first, in order to use the probe automatically in fusion? If the vise is positioned correctly then seems you could probe without worrying much. Also, how did you set the Z on the parallels, do you just use a 123 block on top of patellae or do you probe the bottom of the vise and then add the parallel height?
Thanks!
I set the Z separately, as that doesn't change from one job to the other. With the 1mm diameter probe tip, I can easily pick up the top of the jaws and parallels. Since I use either the jaws or the same parallels for almost every job I do, I just have the top of the jaws set in G55 and the top of the parallels in G54.
I know this is a old video but do you have a link the the stylus?
I'm imagining for the third setup you can use the next G like G55 or G56 etc to use the model as the WC instead of the stock volume. Maybe I'm mistaken?
Yes, that's what I was trying to do. However, the probe was not moving far enough "left" from the camera's view along the Y axis when I did that. As a result, it picked up a point on the curve rather than the side of the part. I could have made the offset larger, which would have eliminated this issue. Or I could simply have combined the 2nd and 3rd operation, while still using two probings.
Question around the 3:16 min mark you are clicking between operations and its showing the simulated stock at that point of the operation clicked. How do you set that view up I can only see simulated stock in simulation mode not just clicking around in my operations?
Thanks!
This is done using the toolbar at the bottom of the screen shown in the manufacturing workspace. There is an icon for Stock visibility. I've checked the option called Display in process stock. F8 (on Windows) will toggle this.
@@JohnSL I had turned that on before and there was no effect. I found that you have to go under the utility tab and enable it there as well.
Thanks
D&J
I feel like I've just viewed something important that I don't quite understand or know how to implement. How is the results of the probing actually utilized- that is, used to adjust the orientation of the part within the CAM environment? I wonder, too, if there is a way to not just identify the extremes of a part, but its orientation- say the part is oriented 9 degrees off of square, might the probe be used to apprehend how the part is oriented, and adjust the model in CAM to match?
There are a lot more capabilities available via Fusion 360 with the Manufacturers Extension, such rotating the coordinate system to adjust for part orientation. I do not have that extension yet. As to what this is doing, it's updating the work coordinate system, such as G54, with a new X/Y origin so that the milling will be aligned with the actual X/Y position of the part rather than the initial, less accurate coordinate that I set just by eye.
@@JohnSL Oh- I see. Is this dependent on having two faces perpendicular to the X and Y axis? Or might you have a jelly-bean shaped part, and take a great number of samples until you located points at the most extreme edges of those axis? Is what you speak of not unlike zeroing to the corner of stock using a locator plate?
I don't have the manufacturing extension, which is required to unlock these capabilities. So I don't know for sure what it can do.
Why not mill two dowel holes and use that as reference?
That also works. If I'm using a circular feature as reference, I want to make sure it's accurate. A hole that is drilled won't be accurate. One that is milled should be. It's been a while since I worked on this, but what I recall is that the end mill I used to make the holes wasn't long enough to go all the way through.
Please stop saying "champ-fur" its actualy a "cham-fur" the P is a PH F so is scilent.
hi john i have file 3d
can i have your email to do mould and what is the cost
You can contact me by clicking the View email address button on this page: www.youtube.com/@JohnSL/about