@omegavalerius Sorri ive had a few ciders, its hard to focus. My point was, its too easy to just say theres roughly 1-2% difference in our ginetical code to our ancestors, obviously there are much more complicated differences which SPROUT from that genetical data change. If that makes sense..
I really like Derren Brown.. Don't think his view on morality is very solid though. He talks about "a higher sense of morality" which we should refer to. But suggests that it comes from our culture, zeitgeist etc which would make it subjective. Surely if we are looking for a moral code, it has to be objective.
his final point about that sense of self morality is also explored in a video i watched a while back called "morals, good without god" again not trying to be obtuse towards reilgous people but if you enjoyed this you would prbably want to give that a look:)
Wow, i honestly didn't know anyone thought that way, not until a few minutes ago when scrolling down this page. However, I've often thought that the world must have been a much more stable place a few 100 years ago when everyone accepted religion without question. If i knew that I would be judged on my actions and sent to an eternity of happiness or horror accordingly I think I would be a more moral person. But that doesn't mean i would feel the urge to massacre without that belief
I totally agree with Derren on this!! I just dont believe in god and have been branded an atheist many times as if I am somehow in the wrong and have something lacking in my life!! The conclusion I came to was I should just try to live a good life and be good to people I just don't feel I need god to help me do that although I've nothing against religion
No grounding ? My morals are based on how my actions effect other people, i certainly did not take them from a 2000 year old book which people pick and chose all the good parts and leave out all the bad or parts that don't suit them because "we don't believe that anymore"
I'm afraid I would have to disagree with that; I don't think its having a religion that makes those countries violent- I would say its having DIFFERENT religions to eachother that makes them violent. If the world was united under one religion, i could almost garruntee that it would be more peaceful and moral place (provided that every person truly believed in it). I still stand by the belief that believing in an omni-everything God is good way to keep people in check (but not the only way).
I've gotta say that, although i hugely respect Derren Brown and the other parts of this interview on youtube, this episode seems kind of... obvious. how could anyone possibly be ignorant enough to think that without religion morality couldn't exist? that would be saying that if you're an athiest then you have no understanding of right or wrong.
Derren is definitely the man! I've been lucky enough to go to all his shows. However, he is saying nothing that hasn't been said by Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens in very much the same way, in fact I'm sure he'd admit to paraphrasing them in this very interview in regards to atheism and the Bible, he did mention A C Grayling. I guess that being an entertainer means he gets to make his point without sounding mean or strident which many accuse Dawkins et al of.
Moral values embeded in the structure of the brain... You don't have to be religious to be moral... But you have to be moral to be religious being more precise you have to stick to moral values of your religion to be rightly defined as religious ...
... I wouldn't consider the large majority of Christians in the world as true believers. A lot of people in the West r ignorant enough to think that a Christian is just someone who believes in 'God' and hence call themselves Christians. But as far as I am aware a large portion of even those who regularly go to church and say they believe in Jesus and all that follows don't actually believe it deep down. I know this because I was brought up as a Christian and only really noticed that I...
please read my three latest replies, i wrote them 2 months ago and have been awaiting a response. But iv only just realised they were in reply to my own comment, not yours, so you werent notified / emailed. Sorry about that, i look forward to your reply
@TheRABIDdude But that's the thing...so, so, so many religious people think exactly that. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it's true. They simply cannot comprehend how morality can exist or how we can possibly know how to be good without their god. Some of them even claim that it's only their faith that stops them doing terrible things, which is rather worrying. Pointing out that most atheists lead good, productive, moral lives doesn't make any difference.
@SubVLPer Christians are not called to that today, almost all of what you did quote is from the old testament, also they are referring to servants, people who although bought do so by will. It is also not indefinite, in those times the person could go free, and indeed exodus says they are to be made free regardless in their seventh year. Leviticus and deuteronomy are also old testament. In luke Jesus is speaking in parable.
No, I think America is the best example of what happens when otherwise intelligent people (and they're not all idiots, I'm afraid) believe absolute nonsense. A life grounded in reality is better for everyone.
@JayDee98765 True but why do you say that a sense of right and wrong in humans is morality and in animals its instinct. I say our morality is also based on instinct which we can examine rationally. Its the great big brain we have that allows us to do some things that for example Bonobos can't but having a basic instinct for protecting the young isn't one of them. Most animals including humans have this instinct.
@omegavalerius You're making far too many assumptions, as of yet, to know what seperates us from the bonobos, is not yet clear, besides ginetical information, the ginetics being much like atoms, it isn't the atoms chosen but rather how they are put together. Please re consider your thoughts friend :)
i think that there is no convention for morality without God--because right and wrong are preferential, in regard to the individual..'do onto others' is a flawed ideology
@headphones222 No exodus said slave are to be free in their seventh year IF they allow their kids and wife to become slaves. As for the new testament Jesus repeatedly endorsed old testament law in all of the Gospels(Matthew 5:18,Luke6:17). In Mark 9:10 Jesus blatantly endorsed old testament law which said that you can kill your kids. In Luke 19:27 there is no evidence that he was talking in parables I suspect that you're just saying that to rationalize the reality of Jesus and the bible.
...didn't believe the story of the Bible when I was about 13. I didn't change my faith at that time, I simply realised that I had never believed, I just copied my family all along. I can tell that others share this self ignorance by the way that they dont ajust their lives in any way to Christian principles. If you want to make your point, please pick a country/ religion that actually devote their lives to worship. Sadly this is impossible as such religions will inevitably fight one another.
now if you take god out of the picture then there is no morality to have because morality and love and everything comes from god, no you can choose to say green is yellow and that black is black and believe anithing you want but god made things in a way that there is no way we can deny there is something
which*, heart*, self*, God* (with a capital) means* were*. I'll accept the rest as typos and i'll let u off on the apostrophes. Try not to make a fool of yourself in future though. :)
@headphones222 You are absolutely wrong about everything you said. In the bible it gives instructions on how to brand, where to get, and how to kill your theses people. These where not servants these were slaves. You don't kill servants however you do kill slaves. And there's a loophole in the old testament which allows someone to be a slave forever so it was indefinite and the bible explicitly endorsed all of this.
You are missing the point somewhat. No matter what the religion & no matter what denomination, religion is not good for society - any society. The worst human rights abuses in in the world overwhelmingly happen in societies with many religious people. It's not ALL down to religion, economics etc, play a part - but certainly no one can reasonably argue that religion is good for a society, when quite clearly it is not.
if you are wrong and have lived a good life then why sould you be sent to hell for not pretending that you did beilieve in a divine being? so many gods to follow your chance of picking the right one is laughable.
@headphones222 In all of Exodus 21 God instructs the Hebrews on how to own slave. Leviticus 25:44-46, 1Peter 2:18, Deuteronomy 15:12, ect. there are a plethora of verses emulating this mentality that you can own people like property throughout the bible. As for Jesus Luke 19:27 shows that he wanted to kill people for not agreeing with him.
Richard Dorkings said the exact same thing years earlier, Derren has just regurgitated it. I'm sorry, he is a great entertainer, but a genius definitely not.
This is called the "No true Scotsman" fallacy - look it up. Who are you to decide what makes a "true" Christian? I think you may be right in that most religious people don't actually believe what they claim to - which is probably why social problems in the US are not worse than they are. It's the true believers (like Westboro Baptists) who cause the most trouble. Again, proving that religion is not good for society.
You are wrong. We atheists have been quiet for generations, we speak now because it's high time humanity grew up and we are increasingly fed up with people who hold insane beliefs having political power over the lives of sane people. Morality is innate in humanity and has nothing to do with religion. The "Golden Rule" you refer to has been around long before many religions and is just one of lots of things hijacked by religion. Religion is being strangled by the rope of education.
Well Morality comes from the bible. and the suposed called Gods Comandments. But the real true morality is and comes from one man alone witch comes frome Jesus. who shared two comandments. Love God with all your hart and soul and Love thy neighbor as thy selfe. and another thing in the bible that says is that god is Love and he created everything so if he created everything it menas that he made it with love and his intentions where for us to live in love.
I knew that this man was intelligent. But I didn't realise he was so considerate in his analysis. I love this, and adds to my respect for this man.
spot on Derren... he hits the nail on the head
God I love Derren Brown. So eloquent, gets his points across perfectly, brilliantly intelligent. What a man
Thanks for all of these videos, its a pleasure to listen to Derren Brown's thoughts.
The thing about morality and the bible in the end was simply brilliant. Derren Brown is a genius.
Wow he makes some great points here. I'd love to have a conversation with Derren, he's such an intelligent man aswell as being a great entertainer!
@omegavalerius Sorri ive had a few ciders, its hard to focus. My point was, its too easy to just say theres roughly 1-2% difference in our ginetical code to our ancestors, obviously there are much more complicated differences which SPROUT from that genetical data change. If that makes sense..
I really like Derren Brown..
Don't think his view on morality is very solid though. He talks about "a higher sense of morality" which we should refer to. But suggests that it comes from our culture, zeitgeist etc which would make it subjective. Surely if we are looking for a moral code, it has to be objective.
his final point about that sense of self morality is also explored in a video i watched a while back called "morals, good without god" again not trying to be obtuse towards reilgous people but if you enjoyed this you would prbably want to give that a look:)
What could you contribute to such a conversation?
Yes, yes YES. Derren and I have very, very similar views on life.
Wow, i honestly didn't know anyone thought that way, not until a few minutes ago when scrolling down this page. However, I've often thought that the world must have been a much more stable place a few 100 years ago when everyone accepted religion without question. If i knew that I would be judged on my actions and sent to an eternity of happiness or horror accordingly I think I would be a more moral person. But that doesn't mean i would feel the urge to massacre without that belief
I totally agree with Derren on this!! I just dont believe in god and have been branded an atheist many times as if I am somehow in the wrong and have something lacking in my life!! The conclusion I came to was I should just try to live a good life and be good to people I just don't feel I need god to help me do that although I've nothing against religion
Belief is meaningful only to the believer, knowledge is meaningful to all.
No grounding ? My morals are based on how my actions effect other people, i certainly did not take them from a 2000 year old book which people pick and chose all the good parts and leave out all the bad or parts that don't suit them because "we don't believe that anymore"
@SubVLPer
Please show me where it says that, because I disagree strongly lol
@yapanuwan expand upon that abit for me maybe? subjective in what sense?
I'm afraid I would have to disagree with that; I don't think its having a religion that makes those countries violent- I would say its having DIFFERENT religions to eachother that makes them violent. If the world was united under one religion, i could almost garruntee that it would be more peaceful and moral place (provided that every person truly believed in it). I still stand by the belief that believing in an omni-everything God is good way to keep people in check (but not the only way).
I've gotta say that, although i hugely respect Derren Brown and the other parts of this interview on youtube, this episode seems kind of... obvious. how could anyone possibly be ignorant enough to think that without religion morality couldn't exist? that would be saying that if you're an athiest then you have no understanding of right or wrong.
Derren is definitely the man! I've been lucky enough to go to all his shows.
However, he is saying nothing that hasn't been said by Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens in very much the same way, in fact I'm sure he'd admit to paraphrasing them in this very interview in regards to atheism and the Bible, he did mention A C Grayling.
I guess that being an entertainer means he gets to make his point without sounding mean or strident which many accuse Dawkins et al of.
Modern western morality comes from morals defined but the great philosophers of Europe in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Awesome comment.
The problem is that atheism usually leads to physicalism, which has no answer to Hume's is-ought problem.
What is a psychological illusionist?
Moral values embeded in the structure of the brain... You don't have to be religious to be moral... But you have to be moral to be religious being more precise you have to stick to moral values of your religion to be rightly defined as religious ...
... I wouldn't consider the large majority of Christians in the world as true believers. A lot of people in the West r ignorant enough to think that a Christian is just someone who believes in 'God' and hence call themselves Christians. But as far as I am aware a large portion of even those who regularly go to church and say they believe in Jesus and all that follows don't actually believe it deep down. I know this because I was brought up as a Christian and only really noticed that I...
please read my three latest replies, i wrote them 2 months ago and have been awaiting a response. But iv only just realised they were in reply to my own comment, not yours, so you werent notified / emailed. Sorry about that, i look forward to your reply
@TheRABIDdude But that's the thing...so, so, so many religious people think exactly that. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it's true. They simply cannot comprehend how morality can exist or how we can possibly know how to be good without their god. Some of them even claim that it's only their faith that stops them doing terrible things, which is rather worrying. Pointing out that most atheists lead good, productive, moral lives doesn't make any difference.
@SubVLPer
Christians are not called to that today, almost all of what you did quote is from the old testament, also they are referring to servants, people who although bought do so by will. It is also not indefinite, in those times the person could go free, and indeed exodus says they are to be made free regardless in their seventh year. Leviticus and deuteronomy are also old testament. In luke Jesus is speaking in parable.
No, I think America is the best example of what happens when otherwise intelligent people (and they're not all idiots, I'm afraid) believe absolute nonsense. A life grounded in reality is better for everyone.
@JayDee98765
True but why do you say that a sense of right and wrong in humans is morality and in animals its instinct. I say our morality is also based on instinct which we can examine rationally. Its the great big brain we have that allows us to do some things that for example Bonobos can't but having a basic instinct for protecting the young isn't one of them. Most animals including humans have this instinct.
I don't believe and if i'm wrong when i die i'll stroll on stroll into hell slightly embarassed.
@omegavalerius You're making far too many assumptions, as of yet, to know what seperates us from the bonobos, is not yet clear, besides ginetical information, the ginetics being much like atoms, it isn't the atoms chosen but rather how they are put together. Please re consider your thoughts friend :)
i think that there is no convention for morality without God--because right and wrong are preferential, in regard to the individual..'do onto others' is a flawed ideology
@headphones222 No exodus said slave are to be free in their seventh year IF they allow their kids and wife to become slaves. As for the new testament Jesus repeatedly endorsed old testament law in all of the Gospels(Matthew 5:18,Luke6:17). In Mark 9:10 Jesus blatantly endorsed old testament law which said that you can kill your kids. In Luke 19:27 there is no evidence that he was talking in parables I suspect that you're just saying that to rationalize the reality of Jesus and the bible.
...didn't believe the story of the Bible when I was about 13. I didn't change my faith at that time, I simply realised that I had never believed, I just copied my family all along. I can tell that others share this self ignorance by the way that they dont ajust their lives in any way to Christian principles. If you want to make your point, please pick a country/ religion that actually devote their lives to worship. Sadly this is impossible as such religions will inevitably fight one another.
now if you take god out of the picture then there is no morality to have because morality and love and everything comes from god, no you can choose to say green is yellow and that black is black and believe anithing you want but god made things in a way that there is no way we can deny there is something
@SamuelLM1990 Morality IS subjective.
which*, heart*, self*, God* (with a capital) means* were*. I'll accept the rest as typos and i'll let u off on the apostrophes. Try not to make a fool of yourself in future though. :)
Seriously? You've been waiting 2 months for me to respond?? Well, I'd better make it good then.
@headphones222 You are absolutely wrong about everything you said. In the bible it gives instructions on how to brand, where to get, and how to kill your theses people. These where not servants these were slaves. You don't kill servants however you do kill slaves. And there's a loophole in the old testament which allows someone to be a slave forever so it was indefinite and the bible explicitly endorsed all of this.
You are missing the point somewhat. No matter what the religion & no matter what denomination, religion is not good for society - any society. The worst human rights abuses in in the world overwhelmingly happen in societies with many religious people. It's not ALL down to religion, economics etc, play a part - but certainly no one can reasonably argue that religion is good for a society, when quite clearly it is not.
if you are wrong and have lived a good life then why sould you be sent to hell for not pretending that you did beilieve in a divine being? so many gods to follow your chance of picking the right one is laughable.
@SubVLPer
Throughout the whole bible, following Jesus is a free will choice, reading the bible is also a free will choice.
@headphones222 In all of Exodus 21 God instructs the Hebrews on how to own slave. Leviticus 25:44-46, 1Peter 2:18, Deuteronomy 15:12, ect. there are a plethora of verses emulating this mentality that you can own people like property throughout the bible. As for Jesus Luke 19:27 shows that he wanted to kill people for not agreeing with him.
Richard Dorkings said the exact same thing years earlier, Derren has just regurgitated it. I'm sorry, he is a great entertainer, but a genius definitely not.
@SubVLPer
I disagree, thank you.
This is called the "No true Scotsman" fallacy - look it up. Who are you to decide what makes a "true" Christian? I think you may be right in that most religious people don't actually believe what they claim to - which is probably why social problems in the US are not worse than they are. It's the true believers (like Westboro Baptists) who cause the most trouble. Again, proving that religion is not good for society.
i think this guy is spending too much time with other "Higher Senses".
I didn't.
You are wrong.
We atheists have been quiet for generations, we speak now because it's high time humanity grew up and we are increasingly fed up with people who hold insane beliefs having political power over the lives of sane people.
Morality is innate in humanity and has nothing to do with religion. The "Golden Rule" you refer to has been around long before many religions and is just one of lots of things hijacked by religion.
Religion is being strangled by the rope of education.
Well Morality comes from the bible. and the suposed called Gods Comandments.
But the real true morality is and comes from one man alone witch comes frome Jesus. who shared two comandments. Love God with all your hart and soul and Love thy neighbor as thy selfe. and another thing in the bible that says is that god is Love and he created everything so if he created everything it menas that he made it with love and his intentions where for us to live in love.