Ive watched all of your videos many times over. They have helped me avoid a few mistakes and have helped alot. In fact I watched this video a few times thinking "Don't make that mistake." Well...I did it too. However, I mirrored the mistake on both ailerons. I just wanted to let you know that your definitely not the only one that screwed that one up. And thank you for taking the time to make these videos. Keep them coming!!!
I DID listen to your long winded explanation of how building an airplane can be justified. ;-) Keep explaining things just the way you do...it's who you are and we appreciate what you have to say.
For builders like yourself, be it a house, boat, plane, or whatever, the legacy of a functional product that will likely outlive you, is worth magnitudes that is hard to calculate. Keep grinding amigo! Love the vids!
Yep, pay over time, build over time, know every last rivet, well designed, mate approval, cheaper than SR22, 200 mph, 10.5 mph leaned, your choice of interior and panel, and, as Van says, total performance. It really is the best bang for the buck four-seater out there. This is why Lancair and the canards can't touch it for popularity. If you have the money and can work with your hands and live for aviation, the Van's aircraft really are the way to go. Thanks for the videos. They are fun and informative to watch. Happy Thanksgiving!
Jason, Wanted to say that I did in fact listen to your entire rationale for building cost and how to stretch out the total cost of the aircraft. Thank you for your inputs and willingness to speak to it as it is a significant factor in the decision to take on this project for someone like myself, who might be interested in following your footsteps. My wife helped her grandfather home build his Vans RV-4 (which was my introduction to the Vans products!) and she tells me repeatedly how much of a great experience it was for her when she was a teenager. Looking at my daughter, it is growing in the back of my mind to undertake this type of project and introduce my daughter, much in the same way that my wife's grandfather introduced her, to flying and airplanes. I just came across your videos and they are exactly the type of videos I have been searching for. Thank you for your willingness to put these on youtube and to allow the rest of us to follow along as you go through your processes of building this kit.
Dude, all the respect to you! Funny thing, you can't build a straight table, but you took on the challenge to build an airplane!!! If you can do it, so could I!!! This gives me inspiration to start SERIOUSLY getting my sh!t together and building my plane!!! Thanks for the vid, very motivational for butterfingers like me. Blue skies my friend! Don't give up and finish your build (if you haven't done it already Haha)
Hey Jason, thank you for sharing the rationale, and for being so objective in your explanation. Aviation has never been cheap, and your conclusions educate the public accordingly. Thanks for these videos, and keep it up!
I did listen to your explanation. Very well thought through with a mix of dreams against a backdrop of reality. I very much enjoy watching your videos as I consider if and what to build myself.
Don't worry about making mistakes; it sounds like what you did is totally fixable. Some people claim that all mistakes are avoidable, but I don't buy that for a second. It's all part of the learning experience.
My experience in plane ownership is that it is NEVER a financial gain. BUT ... this is an enabler. It allows you to do things that you cannot do with a car or would be too time consuming to go through traditional airlines. My personal example is that we can see our family and it would be a 12 hour drive round trip. By airliner, it would take about 10 hours because of connection, TSA... With my then plane (182), it was a 4 hour round trip. 2 hours each way means we can depart after work on Friday and come back end of Sunday. The car would have been the cheapest but would take the most time. The airliner was just not feasible because the destination was not a hub and I was flying from a small regional airport. But our plane was allowing to enjoy the full week end and not be wiped out by a long drive.
If it's a money issue, I can't help you there.. But if its an issue where you're not sure if you have the skill, you do! I assure you you can do this. It is a very long term project though so scale could also be an issue.. but not the individual putting together of parts =)
Thanks for the video, Jason, it's always a pleasure to see you have a new one out. Glad to hear you are going to start on the other wing, I suspect you'll be happy you did. If not, please let use know so that we don't make the same mistake! ;)
As many have said, I did listen to your explanation, and enjoyed it! I'm always curious about how folks afford airplanes. Personally, I need to become more financially disciplined to I can start my project (plans built). Please keep the videos coming!!
Hey Jason! I think that was my question you answered. Yes, you totally answered my question and did it with the detail I was looking for. Thank you for your time. Keep up the good work.
Cheapest option, at least in 2019 is definitely buying used. There are a bunch of options on places like trade-a-plane for less than the cost of a Lycoming engine (sub $43k). If that isn't an option, it MIGHT be worth checking out ultralights, as these can be flown without a certificate. You could save the PPL for the flying club rentals and grab an ultralight if you just want the experience of fun flying. That being said, you certainly won't get the pride and joy of seeing a bunch of parts turn into your own personal aircraft!
Yes, I listened to your rationale discussion and agree 100%. I tend to be even more extreme and do my analyses in Excel. The engineers' curse. I also have some career comments to offer, but I know I am still a few months behind real time and will wait until I catch up with you so I don't offer comments that have been OBE already.
Jason Ellis, My career plan when I was 17 was Air Force Academy and then career as a fighter pilot. Got cut at the finalist stage and received ROTC scholarship as the consolation prize. Another physical showed vision deterioration just enough to rule out fighters and I was offered transport pilot. Turned that down, left college, worked two years as a logger, got private license, then decided maybe college was a better plan so went back for aerospace engineering. That was during Carter administration when AEs were pumping gas in California or flipping burgers. Switched to computer science after sophomore year and went to work for Fortune 500 company who paid me to go back school full time to get EE degree. Worked very hard, went into management, and retired two years ago after 32 years in the corporate world. No regrets as the engineering/management career allowed me to retire comfortably at 55. However, hardly a day goes by that I don't wonder what a career as an Air Force pilot would have been like. I see you returned to law enforcement, but you can do that anytime. If you really want to fly for a living, I would say to go for it. I doubt you will retire and wonder what a law enforcement career would have been like. I bet you will retire and wonder what a flying career would have been like. My $0.02 and worth every penny you paid for it!
The more I look at your videos the more I want to build another RV 8 .... The cheapest way to fly your one aircraft is to build it , for sure... Thanks for your videos !
Enjoying the series very much. I have always wanted to build my own but the time to do it is not there. Looking out your hanger door is a nice view what area are you in? Finally on costs I own a plane with 2 partners. If you get the right guys it's a great way to make aviation reasonably affordable.
hay look from the prices I've seen recently on 5 years old .... well maintained and well-finished rv 10s , they are selling at about 180,000 usd and all up your looking at spending 60,00 usd then you would be able to sell it for 120, 000 usd when finished, if you were building non stop i believe you would be able to make it in under a year ... based on an amount of time you gave us for the avrege amount of ours per day ... 0.8 hours per day for a year to finish the empanarge ... therfor if you had 5 hours per day it is reasonable that you would finish it in a year... based on those numbers it is a very viable option for a full time builder..... actyaly flying a plane is another thing .... :P
Another great video. I say the longer the better! Lol. I did listen to the whole explanation about affording a build and I completely agree. I followed the same logic in my decision to start a build. Point out you mistakes is important. I feel that it affirms the fact that a "regular guy" can build a plane. It's ok to make mistakes and they WILL happen. But as you said, it's okay! Just realize it, fix it, and press on. You're doing a fantastic job and PLEASE keep the videos coming. Without getting too sappy, they are a real motivation and are actually very inspirational. I just joined the EAA (#1225795) and my local chapter. I'm currently buying up tools and hope to ordering my first RV-8 kit soon. Not sure when your check ride is but I have no doubt you will do just fine!
Hi Jason, Great video very informative. I'm a Sheet Metal Mechanic and your work looks great. I was looking to build an RV-8A but the kits are out of my price range. I wish Vans sold the plans so a person could scratch build, so I'm looking at building a Zenith 750 Cruzer and scratch build from just the plans. Good luck and keep the video's coming!
Well.. I know some of the older planes were just plans.. Have you contacted Van's and asked if they would sell just the plans? Or have you considered buying plans for other non-vans planes?
Flying, like any other hobby, has scales of expense/simplicity. Hang gliding is fairly affordable. There's, ultralights available for about $10k. A popular design, affordable true airplane would be a pietenpol air camper that's 2 place, could be started for under $2k and finished around 15-20k. There's a lot of cheaper ways of fly.
Jason Ellis I wrote with Barbara, the sales manager and got some shipping quotes. BTW she´ s doing a very good job. All my questions were answered very quickly and very informational. Now I have to think about saving 3.000€ for shipping all kits at once, but have to afford the full kit + engine at once. And for registering the four seater RV-10 in Germany, you have to buy a certified engine and prop 🙄🙄🙄
Great videos - I'm trying to decide whether to buy the empennage kit for the 10 right now - seeing you make mistakes, and knowing you're clearly more into 'building things' than I am ...makes me think I'm not someone who would take well to this project but IDK. would love to pick your brain sometime by phone - golfmogul is my name on the vans airforce forums - maybe we can connect that way if you're still willing to talk - thx again for the videos!
I did listen at the rationale ... and I would have added one thing to the rationale ... same way that living is not about just eating and sleeping ... you go to movies, restaurants ... go on vacations ... none of that is required ... if you use the rationale of the buying the Delta flight ticket vs flying in your own plane, in the cases that make sense ... minus well, one can say ... don't go to restaurant since you can cook the food (assuming you can) or go into a vacation to Venice ... just watch the videos on you tube about Venice ... it's about giving yourself the pleasure in life that everybody one way or another lives for ... I hope I got my point across .... :-)
Hi Jason, I'm really interested in getting into the whole build your own plane scene later in life. I'm a bit obsessed with it now and there seems to be a distinct lack of people video documenting/vlogging their construction and or projects and explaining the ins and outs of it. I really enjoy these videos hope you keep making them and stick at the project for the whole extent of it. I'm just a college student so It's hard to see the point where I'll be affording a 150,000 dollar airplane but if youtube isn't for pipe dreaming what is it for? I'll be keeping an eye out for your vids and following you along all the way. Thanks for putting the effort in to share this journey with is and educate us along the way. Also listened to your explanation ;). Best of luck! Edit: Would appreciate time stamps for the topics you cover (podcast style) for those of us with a busy schedule. Cheers.
Well.. Can you afford $3k? Can you afford $7k? Can you afford $15k? This is one of those things you have ot start saving for now, and then as you buy each kit (the first one is cheap) you slowly pay down that 100k. (Also if you get a smaller plane it will be a lot less than the RV-10.) THEN in the end, it will be paid for! I knew one guy that earned up enough money over the course of two years to buy the empennage, wings and fuselage before he started building.. he bought each one and stuck it in a storage unit. I mean.. why not?! Not sure what you're asking for regarding the time stamp thing.. can you explain?
That's fair. When you break it down like that it seems a lot more manageable. Time stamps are things you can put in the video description that fast forward to parts of the video. You can describe what you start talking about at these times so it's easier for people to access the information they want/need in a hurry. For example "@2:52 : affording the kits." I realize this is kind of a pain to do and not use for everyone but I travel quite a bit and a lot of the time I watch your videos on buses and trains where I may not have the luxury of watching the whole thing at once. So if the video is titled "affording a plane" I can get to that part and see it before I'm out of wifi range. Just a thought. Thanks for getting back to me :)
Another great vid. It's all just disposable income. Once you have all of your primary financial needs met what you "dispose" of the rest of your money on is entirely up to your own choosing.
Hi Jason, great video again ! Did you look at other kits, either other metal kits (for instance the Sling 4 from the aircraft factory seems less expensive, but less powerful) or even composite kits ?
I have looked at a lot of kits. I wanted to make a Velocity, a long EZ or a berkut for a while but my completely lack of experience with fiberglass steered me away from it. Great planes all. The sling 4 is a good plane for sure and the aircraft factory has been doing great things but for me it didn't meet my requirements. It's a light sport aircraft that would have range and weight issues for me.
Jason, thank you for making these videos they are very enjoyable! I have taken two EAA workshops and hope to start building a 10 next Spring. I have a question- How did you get your significant other onboard with building an airplane?
I wish there was a simple answer to this. My wife is VERY giving and she knows that I'm going to end up with a plane, one way or the other. So we started to shop for planes that would meet our mission. This was the point at which I made her part of the process and explained that HER MISSION was just as important as mine. What are the kinds of things she'd like to do if she could travel? Where would she go? What would she want to bring? etc. Once I made her understand that an airplane represents the "next level of freedom" she was onboard and suddenly we needed a plane that could carry "all the things". So by next level of freedom I mean this; When you're a child you played in the house and not allowed out side alone. Then one day, you were given the next level of freedom. You could play in the yard or in the driveway, unsupervised. Then eventually.. You could ride your bigwheel or tricycle to the end of the block.. Then you were granted the freedom to ride your bike to friends house or down the street. Eventually you got old enough to graduate to a car and could drive anywhere.. but .. that's it. Most people NEVER graduate to the next level of freedom, and in fact, most people don't go very far in their cars due to time constraints and pesky things like.. jobs.. A plane means, you have the next level of freedom. You can go that next exponential step in distance with in the same time frame and get back..etc.. It was that that really sold her. I had to make her a part of the destinations. And in some cases part of the journey. She's not all that keen on the build, she doesn't really enjoy it.. but she's willing to help. She's more interested in all the cool stuff we will be able to do. She also likes animals so I worked the dog rescue / pilots and paws angle too.. heh Either way I think if you can get your spouse involved, and convince them that you're not trying to have a million dollar plane or that there is more to it.. then they can get on board. Some of it is just about demystifying things I think. Hope that helps
This is really great advice, I never thought of it in this way but it makes absolute perfect sense. I will spend more time finding and incorporating in her mission. Thank you!
Last night I misplaced one of 4 grade 8 washers it took me 16 hours to make. I had it right there with all the parts, and it just disappeared. WTF? Things just don't "disappear". After tearing apart my kitchen, I sat down and thought, and determined it could only be in the last place left, the place I didn't want to look, the axle hub I had last put together. And sure enough, just like I speculated, the washer had been stuck to the wrong side of the bearing with grease when I had picked it up, and I had put the bearing in without noticing it thereby losing a washer inside the hub on the wrong side of the bearing. Grrrr. $60,000 for an RV kit. For that kind of money I'd probably settle for nothing less than 6 full built ready to fly planes and they better look spit polished shiny for that price. I'm trying to build my entire plane plus a 20 foot trailer to haul it on for under $1,500. I think you'd be better off putting your $60K in an investment, and doubling it in 5-10 years? There is no practical use for a homebuilt plane, and as I was shouting rhethorically to no one, very pissed off yesterday "Is this suppose to be fun?! Is this suppose to be fun?!"
Jason, How do you do your videos? What software app are you using and what's it cost? It's amazing how you imbed yourself in the video. I'm a private pilot myself and would like to put together some videos as well. Thanks, Frank (Poway, CA)
I personally use Adobe Premiere, but others use Apples Final cut pro or sony's Vega. They all kinda work the same way, it's all in what you get used to and know.
That's the one! I used to do a lot of my voice overs sitting at the computer while editing, but decided it needed more of a personal touch. It adds a little bit of work, but at the same time it gives more context I think. Plus I can stop and take a break from building, and then go film some of the voice over stuff..etc.. Worth it. Let me know what ya think..
Jason Ellis I love it! Definitely a nice touch. These videos have definitely got me thinking about building. In fact, we are in the process of buying a home and the garage has become a focus point for me :) If you're ever in the Philly area - drinks on me!
Good point. A hangar will cost between 200 and 400 a month. The bigger, the more. SOME hangars you get electricity included (like mine!).. =) Not all of them though.
Only way to justify the cost is to use it for business and write it off on taxes. That's why I keep a rental house near my parents, so one day I can fly there in 2 hours instead of a 6 hour drive
If comparable new airplanes can be purchased for half a million or more, realistically, how much is a new kit plane worth when finished? (specifically, an RV-10). In other words, if your RV-10 parts = $150K, what are you earning for your time invested?
Great question. I think you could easily get $200k+ for a fully functional RV-10 that's well built, painted and has good avionics. Maybe even up to $300k.. The value of the RV-10 is going up in my opinion, you'll note you can't get them on the various plane sales sites because people recognize how good they are. A comparably equipped plane would likely be the Cirrus SR22T which costs $800k+.
Thank you for your reply. But I remain confused as to why a factory built plane can be sold brand new for up to four times the sales price of a brand new kit built plane. Either the factory plane is over priced, or the finished kit plane (with labor) is under priced. The discrepancy seems too great.
Ken, the big issue is the FAA Certifications required in order to build and sell a non-experimental / certified aircraft adds a CRAZY amount of cost to an airplane. Cessna, Cirrus, Piper..etc.. those certified airframes are great but in order to get the FAA certification even the most trivial thing, like.. a bolt, has to go through a rigorous testing process that experimental aircraft aren't subject to. Thus, you can build an RV-10 for less than $150k that is easily as performant and cheaper to operate than the comparable Cirrus SR22. Does that answer your question?
Thanks again Jason, It just seems outrageous that government red tape can account for $600,00 / $800,000 (75%) of an aircraft's value. I'm still recovering from the shock that building permits for a new home accounts for 25% of the home's value in our area. But this aviation tax beats that by a nautical mile.
Yeah in a lot of ways I have reasoned that the FAA (thus the government) doesn't actually want people to fly. They price it so high in many cases that this is the only conclusion I can draw..
If "my time is worth a lot, therefore owning my own plane makes sense?" How do you, or any one else, justify the time component of 2000-2500 hours to fabricate the aircraft? It is essentially uncompensated time and adds little or no real value to the finished product. In reality, the cost of many things in life are impossible to justify. Harley's, bass boats, week long hunting trips...the list continues. I guess it all boils down to the fact that like all the other "repeat offenders" out there; building is it's own source of enjoyment and satisfaction. It becomes as integral an element of the journey as that trip to Oshkosh that got you daydreaming in the first place or the squadron burger runs made after completion (and before the Velocity build starts).
Wall of text incoming! Dont know how much will be useful to you or not! Its quite interesting seeing yourself come from a non aviation background and be completely dumped into the mess that is general aviation. Personally I think its quite interesting when you compare aircraft like a brand new cirrus and the RV10. I think for non aviation people is easy to dismiss the RV-10, planes are ment to BE expensive, so the Cirrus must be good. But when you compare the actual capabilities of both aircraft, well the differences really start to fade away. You are then left with the real question, and I really getting 500,000 dollars of added capability with a Cirrus over an RV-10. It doesnt take much to argue they perform the exact same mission, minus flying in the flight levels. Anyway, with your musings about engines, I am sure you have trolled the Vans forums and are aware of overhauled engines. You probably want a super dooper brand new engine in your machine which I get. But at the same time, if you run the new engine vs overhauled through the same thought process above. Well you dont actually get any added capability or performance. It just might be worth having a very good look at. Even if you want brand new there are other options like Titan Engines, Superior Engines, plus more that are Lycoming clones. Some performance or better. I know the engine is a long way off, but well deciding if you will run Avgas only or Mogas is a consideration with fuel tank fittings, and the rest that will follow to the firewall. Anyway I digress. Really like what you are doing, and its awesome to see someone with the aviation bug with a smile on their face every time they talk about planes! If I ever get a chance ill help you out any way I can!
Hi Rush! Yeah I wanted to talk to all that in a future video but I'm not "there yet". I have looked at New and Used O-, IO-, and even a TIO-540. I think it's pretty obvious I'm going to go for used because the price difference is brutal. Interestingly I have also looked at finding engines at (for the lack of a better word) junk yards. Or planes that were confiscated/seized due to being drug planes..etc.. I know one fella who got an older O-540 for his -10 for under 20k. Put like 5k of rebuild on it and ding perfectly working engine. I'm told that If I want the flight levels, a TIO- is required.. I could be wrong though. Again this is really a subject for much later discussion and research first.. but I don't mind floating it and chatting now. A TIO will be pricey. Like.. more than double the IO.. so I doubt I'll be able to swing it.. Hell even the CORE value is more than the O- that my friend has. Regarding alternate engines and clones ~ I have ZERO knowledge or understanding of them. That's all a mystery to me so I have a lot of learning to do before I go forward there.. Again the timing just hasn't been there yet. I need to get closer to that point before I pull that trigger. Now lets talk about important things.. Flight sims! I need to get into those.. I really want VR goggles though.. to feel more "in the plane".. Thoughts?
As far as sims go with VR I highly recommend it, however be conscious of what your computer can handle. I have basically upgraded everything I can to get the best performance; and while it is worth it, its not the same as flying a real plane but it's great to practice navigation and other things(like flying an A-10 in DCS). Any specific questions feel free to let me know!
Hey Jason! Ill go ahead and send you through a message on UA-cam here about engines! Flight sims? Well yeah hahah I can help you out with that! There is a new flight sim due out in the next few weeks called XP11. I would be keeping an eye out on that, its great from a home computer! VR is great but the hardware doesnt really support our kind of flying. The pixel density of the screens isnt quite there to easily read gauges etc. Honestly a decent sized flat screen and a few hundred dollars in controls and you are good to go!
I know I am late to the party but there is one other factor to consider. Are you tired of being treated like cattle by the airlines. Airlines are more interested in moving cargo than passengers in any reasonable level of comfort. With your own aircraft, you have a comfortable seat, knee room, no 5 year old kicking the back of your seat, toxic food and the inconvenience of the electronic strip search entering the airport.
Ive watched all of your videos many times over. They have helped me avoid a few mistakes and have helped alot. In fact I watched this video a few times thinking "Don't make that mistake." Well...I did it too. However, I mirrored the mistake on both ailerons. I just wanted to let you know that your definitely not the only one that screwed that one up. And thank you for taking the time to make these videos. Keep them coming!!!
I DID listen to your long winded explanation of how building an airplane can be justified. ;-) Keep explaining things just the way you do...it's who you are and we appreciate what you have to say.
For builders like yourself, be it a house, boat, plane, or whatever, the legacy of a functional product that will likely outlive you, is worth magnitudes that is hard to calculate. Keep grinding amigo! Love the vids!
Yep, pay over time, build over time, know every last rivet, well designed, mate approval, cheaper than SR22, 200 mph, 10.5 mph leaned, your choice of interior and panel, and, as Van says, total performance. It really is the best bang for the buck four-seater out there. This is why Lancair and the canards can't touch it for popularity. If you have the money and can work with your hands and live for aviation, the Van's aircraft really are the way to go. Thanks for the videos. They are fun and informative to watch. Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanksgiving to you too! And "Yes" to everything you said =)
Jason, Wanted to say that I did in fact listen to your entire rationale for building cost and how to stretch out the total cost of the aircraft. Thank you for your inputs and willingness to speak to it as it is a significant factor in the decision to take on this project for someone like myself, who might be interested in following your footsteps.
My wife helped her grandfather home build his Vans RV-4 (which was my introduction to the Vans products!) and she tells me repeatedly how much of a great experience it was for her when she was a teenager. Looking at my daughter, it is growing in the back of my mind to undertake this type of project and introduce my daughter, much in the same way that my wife's grandfather introduced her, to flying and airplanes.
I just came across your videos and they are exactly the type of videos I have been searching for. Thank you for your willingness to put these on youtube and to allow the rest of us to follow along as you go through your processes of building this kit.
Dude, all the respect to you! Funny thing, you can't build a straight table, but you took on the challenge to build an airplane!!!
If you can do it, so could I!!! This gives me inspiration to start SERIOUSLY getting my sh!t together and building my plane!!!
Thanks for the vid, very motivational for butterfingers like me.
Blue skies my friend! Don't give up and finish your build (if you haven't done it already Haha)
Hey Jason, thank you for sharing the rationale, and for being so objective in your explanation. Aviation has never been cheap, and your conclusions educate the public accordingly. Thanks for these videos, and keep it up!
Yup whole thing, also don't understate the value of just hearing someone talk about a hobby you like
I did listen to your explanation. Very well thought through with a mix of dreams against a backdrop of reality. I very much enjoy watching your videos as I consider if and what to build myself.
I listened to the whole thing, and enjoyed it all. Thanks!
Don't worry about making mistakes; it sounds like what you did is totally fixable. Some people claim that all mistakes are avoidable, but I don't buy that for a second. It's all part of the learning experience.
My experience in plane ownership is that it is NEVER a financial gain. BUT ... this is an enabler. It allows you to do things that you cannot do with a car or would be too time consuming to go through traditional airlines.
My personal example is that we can see our family and it would be a 12 hour drive round trip. By airliner, it would take about 10 hours because of connection, TSA... With my then plane (182), it was a 4 hour round trip. 2 hours each way means we can depart after work on Friday and come back end of Sunday.
The car would have been the cheapest but would take the most time. The airliner was just not feasible because the destination was not a hub and I was flying from a small regional airport. But our plane was allowing to enjoy the full week end and not be wiped out by a long drive.
Yes, I listened all the way through! :D And I am going to listen (watch) the rest of the series.
Jason, thank you for putting these out. Trying to determine how to pull the trigger on doing this myself.
If it's a money issue, I can't help you there.. But if its an issue where you're not sure if you have the skill, you do! I assure you you can do this. It is a very long term project though so scale could also be an issue.. but not the individual putting together of parts =)
Thanks for the video, Jason, it's always a pleasure to see you have a new one out. Glad to hear you are going to start on the other wing, I suspect you'll be happy you did. If not, please let use know so that we don't make the same mistake! ;)
As many have said, I did listen to your explanation, and enjoyed it! I'm always curious about how folks afford airplanes. Personally, I need to become more financially disciplined to I can start my project (plans built). Please keep the videos coming!!
Hey Jason! I think that was my question you answered. Yes, you totally answered my question and did it with the detail I was looking for. Thank you for your time. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for talking about the finances! I appreciate the long winded explanation =)
Yep, I listened as I always do. Always great to get another of your videos. Squeeze away!!
Cheapest option, at least in 2019 is definitely buying used. There are a bunch of options on places like trade-a-plane for less than the cost of a Lycoming engine (sub $43k). If that isn't an option, it MIGHT be worth checking out ultralights, as these can be flown without a certificate. You could save the PPL for the flying club rentals and grab an ultralight if you just want the experience of fun flying. That being said, you certainly won't get the pride and joy of seeing a bunch of parts turn into your own personal aircraft!
Yes, I listened to your rationale discussion and agree 100%. I tend to be even more extreme and do my analyses in Excel. The engineers' curse.
I also have some career comments to offer, but I know I am still a few months behind real time and will wait until I catch up with you so I don't offer comments that have been OBE already.
Comment away =p
Jason Ellis, My career plan when I was 17 was Air Force Academy and then career as a fighter pilot. Got cut at the finalist stage and received ROTC scholarship as the consolation prize. Another physical showed vision deterioration just enough to rule out fighters and I was offered transport pilot. Turned that down, left college, worked two years as a logger, got private license, then decided maybe college was a better plan so went back for aerospace engineering. That was during Carter administration when AEs were pumping gas in California or flipping burgers.
Switched to computer science after sophomore year and went to work for Fortune 500 company who paid me to go back school full time to get EE degree. Worked very hard, went into management, and retired two years ago after 32 years in the corporate world. No regrets as the engineering/management career allowed me to retire comfortably at 55. However, hardly a day goes by that I don't wonder what a career as an Air Force pilot would have been like.
I see you returned to law enforcement, but you can do that anytime. If you really want to fly for a living, I would say to go for it. I doubt you will retire and wonder what a law enforcement career would have been like. I bet you will retire and wonder what a flying career would have been like.
My $0.02 and worth every penny you paid for it!
The more I look at your videos the more I want to build another RV 8 .... The cheapest way to fly your one aircraft is to build it , for sure...
Thanks for your videos !
Uh oh.. Repeat offender!! =p Do it man.. it's a great project and fun to boot.. Plus how many can say they did that?
Great video Jason. Thanks for the explanation you did an awesome job. Keep up the great work
Yeah,dude. very good chat. Just makes sense the way you say it.
Enjoying the series very much. I have always wanted to build my own but the time to do it is not there. Looking out your hanger door is a nice view what area are you in? Finally on costs I own a plane with 2 partners. If you get the right guys it's a great way to make aviation reasonably affordable.
I live in far north georgia up in the mountains.
I am building an RV-7 and live in the Chattanooga area.... I am not far from north GA!
hay look from the prices I've seen recently on 5 years old .... well maintained and well-finished rv 10s , they are selling at about 180,000 usd and all up your looking at spending 60,00 usd then you would be able to sell it for 120, 000 usd when finished, if you were building non stop i believe you would be able to make it in under a year ... based on an amount of time you gave us for the avrege amount of ours per day ... 0.8 hours per day for a year to finish the empanarge ... therfor if you had 5 hours per day it is reasonable that you would finish it in a year... based on those numbers it is a very viable option for a full time builder..... actyaly flying a plane is another thing .... :P
Another great video. I say the longer the better! Lol. I did listen to the whole explanation about affording a build and I completely agree. I followed the same logic in my decision to start a build. Point out you mistakes is important. I feel that it affirms the fact that a "regular guy" can build a plane. It's ok to make mistakes and they WILL happen. But as you said, it's okay! Just realize it, fix it, and press on. You're doing a fantastic job and PLEASE keep the videos coming. Without getting too sappy, they are a real motivation and are actually very inspirational. I just joined the EAA (#1225795) and my local chapter. I'm currently buying up tools and hope to ordering my first RV-8 kit soon. Not sure when your check ride is but I have no doubt you will do just fine!
Hi Jason, Great video very informative. I'm a Sheet Metal Mechanic and your work looks great. I was looking to build an RV-8A but the kits are out of my price range. I wish Vans
sold the plans so a person could scratch build, so I'm looking at building a Zenith 750 Cruzer and scratch build from just the plans. Good luck and keep the video's coming!
Well, I think you can get the plans from them in CD/DVD form.. But I have to think that scratch building would be a daunting task!!
Yes daunting but I enjoy that type of work and building a section at a time I think would be the cheapest way.
Well.. I know some of the older planes were just plans.. Have you contacted Van's and asked if they would sell just the plans? Or have you considered buying plans for other non-vans planes?
Yes, and no they don't, or at the time they didn't.
Flying, like any other hobby, has scales of expense/simplicity.
Hang gliding is fairly affordable. There's, ultralights available for about $10k.
A popular design, affordable true airplane would be a pietenpol air camper that's 2 place, could be started for under $2k and finished around 15-20k.
There's a lot of cheaper ways of fly.
Hi Jason, I like all of your Videos. The short ones and the long ones😁.... I actually look for shipping alternatives to Germany😋
Contact Van's? I'm sure they have someone they work with. Now it might be super expensive though.. I have no idea..
Jason Ellis I wrote with Barbara, the sales manager and got some shipping quotes. BTW she´ s doing a very good job. All my questions were answered very quickly and very informational. Now I have to think about saving 3.000€ for shipping all kits at once, but have to afford the full kit + engine at once. And for registering the four seater RV-10 in Germany, you have to buy a certified engine and prop 🙄🙄🙄
I sure did, I 100% agree with you.
Great videos - I'm trying to decide whether to buy the empennage kit for the 10 right now - seeing you make mistakes, and knowing you're clearly more into 'building things' than I am ...makes me think I'm not someone who would take well to this project but IDK. would love to pick your brain sometime by phone - golfmogul is my name on the vans airforce forums - maybe we can connect that way if you're still willing to talk - thx again for the videos!
Buy yourself a few sheets of aluminum and a rivet gun and try setting a bunch of rivets. Its a lot cheaper than buying the empennage kit...
"The labour doesn't pay well, but neither does watching tv" - all the excuse you need to build and airplane right there.
great video
I did listen at the rationale ... and I would have added one thing to the rationale ... same way that living is not about just eating and sleeping ... you go to movies, restaurants ... go on vacations ... none of that is required ... if you use the rationale of the buying the Delta flight ticket vs flying in your own plane, in the cases that make sense ... minus well, one can say ... don't go to restaurant since you can cook the food (assuming you can) or go into a vacation to Venice ... just watch the videos on you tube about Venice ... it's about giving yourself the pleasure in life that everybody one way or another lives for ...
I hope I got my point across .... :-)
Hi Jason,
I'm really interested in getting into the whole build your own plane scene later in life. I'm a bit obsessed with it now and there seems to be a distinct lack of people video documenting/vlogging their construction and or projects and explaining the ins and outs of it. I really enjoy these videos hope you keep making them and stick at the project for the whole extent of it. I'm just a college student so It's hard to see the point where I'll be affording a 150,000 dollar airplane but if youtube isn't for pipe dreaming what is it for?
I'll be keeping an eye out for your vids and following you along all the way. Thanks for putting the effort in to share this journey with is and educate us along the way. Also listened to your explanation ;).
Best of luck!
Edit: Would appreciate time stamps for the topics you cover (podcast style) for those of us with a busy schedule. Cheers.
Well.. Can you afford $3k? Can you afford $7k? Can you afford $15k? This is one of those things you have ot start saving for now, and then as you buy each kit (the first one is cheap) you slowly pay down that 100k. (Also if you get a smaller plane it will be a lot less than the RV-10.) THEN in the end, it will be paid for! I knew one guy that earned up enough money over the course of two years to buy the empennage, wings and fuselage before he started building.. he bought each one and stuck it in a storage unit. I mean.. why not?!
Not sure what you're asking for regarding the time stamp thing.. can you explain?
That's fair. When you break it down like that it seems a lot more manageable. Time stamps are things you can put in the video description that fast forward to parts of the video. You can describe what you start talking about at these times so it's easier for people to access the information they want/need in a hurry. For example "@2:52 : affording the kits."
I realize this is kind of a pain to do and not use for everyone but I travel quite a bit and a lot of the time I watch your videos on buses and trains where I may not have the luxury of watching the whole thing at once. So if the video is titled "affording a plane" I can get to that part and see it before I'm out of wifi range. Just a thought. Thanks for getting back to me :)
Would suggest mdf if you want a flat top table
Another great vid. It's all just disposable income. Once you have all of your primary financial needs met what you "dispose" of the rest of your money on is entirely up to your own choosing.
Pretty much exactly this. I think a lot of folks try to figure out how to do it on ZERO disposable income though and that's going to be a challenge.
Hi Jason, great video again !
Did you look at other kits, either other metal kits (for instance the Sling 4 from the aircraft factory seems less expensive, but less powerful) or even composite kits ?
I have looked at a lot of kits. I wanted to make a Velocity, a long EZ or a berkut for a while but my completely lack of experience with fiberglass steered me away from it. Great planes all.
The sling 4 is a good plane for sure and the aircraft factory has been doing great things but for me it didn't meet my requirements. It's a light sport aircraft that would have range and weight issues for me.
Jason, thank you for making these videos they are very enjoyable! I have taken two EAA workshops and hope to start building a 10 next Spring. I have a question- How did you get your significant other onboard with building an airplane?
I wish there was a simple answer to this. My wife is VERY giving and she knows that I'm going to end up with a plane, one way or the other. So we started to shop for planes that would meet our mission.
This was the point at which I made her part of the process and explained that HER MISSION was just as important as mine. What are the kinds of things she'd like to do if she could travel? Where would she go? What would she want to bring? etc.
Once I made her understand that an airplane represents the "next level of freedom" she was onboard and suddenly we needed a plane that could carry "all the things".
So by next level of freedom I mean this; When you're a child you played in the house and not allowed out side alone. Then one day, you were given the next level of freedom. You could play in the yard or in the driveway, unsupervised. Then eventually.. You could ride your bigwheel or tricycle to the end of the block.. Then you were granted the freedom to ride your bike to friends house or down the street. Eventually you got old enough to graduate to a car and could drive anywhere.. but .. that's it.
Most people NEVER graduate to the next level of freedom, and in fact, most people don't go very far in their cars due to time constraints and pesky things like.. jobs..
A plane means, you have the next level of freedom. You can go that next exponential step in distance with in the same time frame and get back..etc..
It was that that really sold her. I had to make her a part of the destinations. And in some cases part of the journey. She's not all that keen on the build, she doesn't really enjoy it.. but she's willing to help. She's more interested in all the cool stuff we will be able to do.
She also likes animals so I worked the dog rescue / pilots and paws angle too.. heh
Either way I think if you can get your spouse involved, and convince them that you're not trying to have a million dollar plane or that there is more to it.. then they can get on board. Some of it is just about demystifying things I think.
Hope that helps
This is really great advice, I never thought of it in this way but it makes absolute perfect sense. I will spend more time finding and incorporating in her mission. Thank you!
@@JasonEllisBuilds Hey Jason! What application did you use to cut the background of the video?
This is exhausting! When do you get to actually enjoy flying the thing?
Could be another couple years, or a year at least. It really has to do with how fast i can build it =)
Last night I misplaced one of 4 grade 8 washers it took me 16 hours to make. I had it right there with all the parts, and it just disappeared. WTF? Things just don't "disappear". After tearing apart my kitchen, I sat down and thought, and determined it could only be in the last place left, the place I didn't want to look, the axle hub I had last put together. And sure enough, just like I speculated, the washer had been stuck to the wrong side of the bearing with grease when I had picked it up, and I had put the bearing in without noticing it thereby losing a washer inside the hub on the wrong side of the bearing. Grrrr.
$60,000 for an RV kit. For that kind of money I'd probably settle for nothing less than 6 full built ready to fly planes and they better look spit polished shiny for that price. I'm trying to build my entire plane plus a 20 foot trailer to haul it on for under $1,500. I think you'd be better off putting your $60K in an investment, and doubling it in 5-10 years?
There is no practical use for a homebuilt plane, and as I was shouting rhethorically to no one, very pissed off yesterday "Is this suppose to be fun?! Is this suppose to be fun?!"
The affordability is on the maintenance and upkeep side.
Jason thanks for all the great videos. How much do you think you will spend on avionics for the rv-10?
I have no idea at this point. That market changes so much and it will still be a while yet so I really haven't looked too hard..
Nothing cheap about aviation, good videos, maybe one day.....
Jason,
How do you do your videos? What software app are you using and what's it cost? It's amazing how you imbed yourself in the video. I'm a private pilot myself and would like to put together some videos as well. Thanks, Frank (Poway, CA)
I personally use Adobe Premiere, but others use Apples Final cut pro or sony's Vega. They all kinda work the same way, it's all in what you get used to and know.
Hey Jason! Another great video! Is the green sheet hanging in the background for filming your voiceover?
That's the one! I used to do a lot of my voice overs sitting at the computer while editing, but decided it needed more of a personal touch. It adds a little bit of work, but at the same time it gives more context I think. Plus I can stop and take a break from building, and then go film some of the voice over stuff..etc.. Worth it. Let me know what ya think..
Jason Ellis I love it! Definitely a nice touch. These videos have definitely got me thinking about building. In fact, we are in the process of buying a home and the garage has become a focus point for me :) If you're ever in the Philly area - drinks on me!
Sweet! Jus tknow that even a 3 car garage really isn't big enough.. not really.
Yup! I listened to the WHOLE shebang! Now.... my Sense of Humor has kicked in... "I know every rivet." So.... how MANY rivets are in your plane? =)
Hi Jason, thanks for the great video. Question: roughly how much if the rv10 can you build in a two car garage before it's time to move to a hanger?
If you don't have cars in there, darn near all of it. Space will always be an issue but I think you can do the bulk of the work there easily.
@@JasonEllisBuilds thank you Jason, and good luck with your build !
Jason,
What about the cost of your hangar and electricity
Good point. A hangar will cost between 200 and 400 a month. The bigger, the more. SOME hangars you get electricity included (like mine!).. =) Not all of them though.
yep...I listened
Only way to justify the cost is to use it for business and write it off on taxes. That's why I keep a rental house near my parents, so one day I can fly there in 2 hours instead of a 6 hour drive
If comparable new airplanes can be purchased for half a million or more, realistically, how much is a new kit plane worth when finished? (specifically, an RV-10). In other words, if your RV-10 parts = $150K, what are you earning for your time invested?
Great question. I think you could easily get $200k+ for a fully functional RV-10 that's well built, painted and has good avionics. Maybe even up to $300k.. The value of the RV-10 is going up in my opinion, you'll note you can't get them on the various plane sales sites because people recognize how good they are. A comparably equipped plane would likely be the Cirrus SR22T which costs $800k+.
Thank you for your reply. But I remain confused as to why a factory built plane can be sold brand new for up to four times the sales price of a brand new kit built plane. Either the factory plane is over priced, or the finished kit plane (with labor) is under priced. The discrepancy seems too great.
Ken, the big issue is the FAA Certifications required in order to build and sell a non-experimental / certified aircraft adds a CRAZY amount of cost to an airplane. Cessna, Cirrus, Piper..etc.. those certified airframes are great but in order to get the FAA certification even the most trivial thing, like.. a bolt, has to go through a rigorous testing process that experimental aircraft aren't subject to. Thus, you can build an RV-10 for less than $150k that is easily as performant and cheaper to operate than the comparable Cirrus SR22. Does that answer your question?
Thanks again Jason, It just seems outrageous that government red tape can account for $600,00 / $800,000 (75%) of an aircraft's value. I'm still recovering from the shock that building permits for a new home accounts for 25% of the home's value in our area. But this aviation tax beats that by a nautical mile.
Yeah in a lot of ways I have reasoned that the FAA (thus the government) doesn't actually want people to fly. They price it so high in many cases that this is the only conclusion I can draw..
Fractional ownership makes things very affordable.
How much was the hangar rental?
Hangar rental will be different at every airport.. but they usually run between $200 to $400 USD a month
We can never justify the cost of any hobby. Some are just more expensive than others.
I did ;)
I listened 😅
If "my time is worth a lot, therefore owning my own plane makes sense?" How do you, or any one else, justify the time component of 2000-2500 hours to fabricate the aircraft? It is essentially uncompensated time and adds little or no real value to the finished product.
In reality, the cost of many things in life are impossible to justify. Harley's, bass boats, week long hunting trips...the list continues. I guess it all boils down to the fact that like all the other "repeat offenders" out there; building is it's own source of enjoyment and satisfaction. It becomes as integral an element of the journey as that trip to Oshkosh that got you daydreaming in the first place or the squadron burger runs made after completion (and before the Velocity build starts).
I talk to some of my reasons here; ua-cam.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=2okFvv43cqU
Wall of text incoming! Dont know how much will be useful to you or not!
Its quite interesting seeing yourself come from a non aviation background and be completely dumped into the mess that is general aviation. Personally I think its quite interesting when you compare aircraft like a brand new cirrus and the RV10. I think for non aviation people is easy to dismiss the RV-10, planes are ment to BE expensive, so the Cirrus must be good. But when you compare the actual capabilities of both aircraft, well the differences really start to fade away. You are then left with the real question, and I really getting 500,000 dollars of added capability with a Cirrus over an RV-10. It doesnt take much to argue they perform the exact same mission, minus flying in the flight levels.
Anyway, with your musings about engines, I am sure you have trolled the Vans forums and are aware of overhauled engines. You probably want a super dooper brand new engine in your machine which I get. But at the same time, if you run the new engine vs overhauled through the same thought process above. Well you dont actually get any added capability or performance. It just might be worth having a very good look at. Even if you want brand new there are other options like Titan Engines, Superior Engines, plus more that are Lycoming clones. Some performance or better.
I know the engine is a long way off, but well deciding if you will run Avgas only or Mogas is a consideration with fuel tank fittings, and the rest that will follow to the firewall. Anyway I digress.
Really like what you are doing, and its awesome to see someone with the aviation bug with a smile on their face every time they talk about planes! If I ever get a chance ill help you out any way I can!
Hey it's Rush! Cool to see a streamer I watch in the comment section of a UA-camr I watch.
P.S Keep a fire extinguisher next to your PC from now on.
lol Well I have appropriate signage on the PC now.... And yes I care not to tell you how much I have lurked all of Jasons videos :-)
Hi Rush! Yeah I wanted to talk to all that in a future video but I'm not "there yet". I have looked at New and Used O-, IO-, and even a TIO-540. I think it's pretty obvious I'm going to go for used because the price difference is brutal. Interestingly I have also looked at finding engines at (for the lack of a better word) junk yards. Or planes that were confiscated/seized due to being drug planes..etc.. I know one fella who got an older O-540 for his -10 for under 20k. Put like 5k of rebuild on it and ding perfectly working engine.
I'm told that If I want the flight levels, a TIO- is required.. I could be wrong though. Again this is really a subject for much later discussion and research first.. but I don't mind floating it and chatting now. A TIO will be pricey. Like.. more than double the IO.. so I doubt I'll be able to swing it.. Hell even the CORE value is more than the O- that my friend has.
Regarding alternate engines and clones ~ I have ZERO knowledge or understanding of them. That's all a mystery to me so I have a lot of learning to do before I go forward there.. Again the timing just hasn't been there yet. I need to get closer to that point before I pull that trigger.
Now lets talk about important things.. Flight sims! I need to get into those.. I really want VR goggles though.. to feel more "in the plane".. Thoughts?
As far as sims go with VR I highly recommend it, however be conscious of what your computer can handle. I have basically upgraded everything I can to get the best performance; and while it is worth it, its not the same as flying a real plane but it's great to practice navigation and other things(like flying an A-10 in DCS). Any specific questions feel free to let me know!
Hey Jason! Ill go ahead and send you through a message on UA-cam here about engines!
Flight sims? Well yeah hahah I can help you out with that! There is a new flight sim due out in the next few weeks called XP11. I would be keeping an eye out on that, its great from a home computer! VR is great but the hardware doesnt really support our kind of flying. The pixel density of the screens isnt quite there to easily read gauges etc. Honestly a decent sized flat screen and a few hundred dollars in controls and you are good to go!
It's surprising how much money can be spent on day to day useless stuff. I believe if a person wants an RV bad enough, they'll have an RV.
I know I am late to the party but there is one other factor to consider. Are you tired of being treated like cattle by the airlines. Airlines are more interested in moving cargo than passengers in any reasonable level of comfort. With your own aircraft, you have a comfortable seat, knee room, no 5 year old kicking the back of your seat, toxic food and the inconvenience of the electronic strip search entering the airport.
I totally heard this post in Cave Johnsons voice.. =D 100% agree.