Hoffman vs Rubin Debate - The Legacy of Two Hippies - History of Rock n Roll as a Social Movement
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 жов 2024
- Made infamous in their roles during the DNC Riot of '68, and the subsequent Chicago 8 Trial, the legacy of Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin echoes into the modern ethos of the Political Left. By the 1980's, a rift developed between Hoffman and Rubin. Hoffman remained the "Eternal Stalwart Hippie," whilst a more reflective Rubin "softened and evolved" into a more marketable "Yuppie Hippie." This angered many of Rubin's Hippie compatriots from the '60's, including Hoffman. As a result, this led to the Hoffman vs. Rubin Debates of the late '80's (see video summary here).
This Hoffman vs. Rubin Rift still remains within the Political Left today. It was recently made manifest in the 2016 election, as the Democrat Party split into two camps. Some Democrats demanded that the "Rubin - Clinton Camp" lead the party, whilst other Democrats cried foul and demanded that the "Hoffman - Bernie Sanders Camp" represent the Party during the 2016 election. As the grand children of the Hippie - Yuppie Boomers come of age, the question still remains - whose legacy will win out amongst the Political Left? Will the Zoomers that opt to follow the ethos of the Political Left choose the Legacy of Hoffman or will they choose the Legacy of Rubin? Time will only tell.
Jerry Rubin terrifies tf out of me that someone could sell out like that
Yeah
I prefer Rubin. Hoffman is stuck in the past. He doesn't have solutions. He just wants to feel morally superior.
@@psychonaut1502 Abbie had a lot of solutions.Evidently you didn't know Abbie personally. It seemed that Abbie could do anything. I remember visiting the medical tent at Woodstock and Abbie was running it working along with the doctors.
Lol what exactly did you disagree with? He actually said more deep stuff than Hoffman
What is a sell out to some, is maturity and change to others.
Jerry went from being a young social provocateur to a middle aged man who rationalizes the changes he's made later in his life. People change, he can't be condemned for that but in this video he crafted an argument which protects his point of view, Abbie is more pragmatic. The counterculture was not a representation of the whole Baby Boom generation, most of the BB gen was as straight as their parents gen. The counterculture lifestyle wasn't untenable, it didn't endure as a popular movement because it became diluted after 1970 when everyone started growing their hair and smoked pot. Smoking pot stopped being a revolutionary act and having long hair lost its meaning. The counterculture was absorbed by the mainstream culture and it was at that time when white powder drugs changed everything. People do what they need to do to survive but that shouldn't change their ideals. Abbie's ideals didn't change, Jerry's did. America had a strong middle class in the 1960's, young people could take advantage of the privilege's of youth but in the 1980's the largest transfer of wealth from the middle class to the top 5% took place and Jerry was part of that. Survival in the 1980's didn't leave much room for taking chances but Abbie still continued to work for social causes. Today, pot is becoming legal and psychedelics are becoming legitimate therapies. If Jerry were alive today, he'd likely be smoking pot and might even own a dispensary! Both of which would render moot some of his statements in this video but I'm sure he'd find a way to rationalize it.
Well said.
Well said. I recently read Jerry Rubin's Do It and I was surprised all the things long hair supposedly meant in the '60s. I also think Jerry's was a bit more radical than Abbie back then (in a violent kind of way) which made it harder for him to keep those ideals.
Really hard to oppose much in your discourse... except all this world is run by the spirit of antichrist and soon to be 100% evil...
And then to pass away as JESUS KINGDOM RISES...
REPENT and contact JESUS and HIS BLOOD..
OUR ONLY HOPE
Jerry would have changed a lot since then. He would be 86 years old.
Hoffman was the real deal.
He won the debate in my honest opinion
I'm for the Hoffman-Bernie Sanders Camp ✊
The notion that Hoffman killed himself due to disillusionment was dismissed by others, for example his son America Hoffman.
Thanks, Louis C.K.
Just judging from this short and edited clip Hoffman was the only one who actually said anything. Really no way to judge the two as the poster's biases likely played in the editing.
Fair point… bias always plays a role in ALL reporting, from any media institution. Here was my logic behind my edit:
1) assigning students to watch a 2 hour debate… well, that ain’t happening… I can barely get students to watch this 15 minute video summary
2) As you probably noted, I put more emphasis on Rubin than Hoffman. My reason was to demonstrate how much Rubin moved away from his former radical Left positions of the 60s and 70s and more toward the Middle Left. As Hoffman said, he was a “broken record”, which means he was just repeating himself, as he really never moved away from his positions of the 60s and 70s. …ergo, I thought it would be more important to show the changes in Rubin than to force students to re-hear Hoffman’s positions, which were well known by that point.
3) I also wanted to give credit to Rubin for being one of the only Boomer Hippies to admit what they got wrong… for example, his mentioning of the Cambodian genocide was huge (see Dead Kennedy’s song “Holiday in Cambodia” which slams both the student hippie protesters of the 60’s and Herbert Marcuse for royally mistaking their promise of a “communist utopia” if the US withdrew from Vietnam….the bloody opposite happened in Vietnam and Cambodia and Rubin at least admits it).
4) Do I have Bias About DNC of 2016?: Perhaps 🤔, but I wanted to report a common complaint made by the Sanders camp during 2016…and keep to the thesis of the video.
In the end, judge for yourself. Here’s the entire video:
ua-cam.com/video/1AgYYhYFa7s/v-deo.htmlsi=J20c8suN2pJRYeUG
Yeah that's what people say when they want to pretend Rubin had any good points to make beyond being selfish. You could go find more information about this to make a real point, but you're content to idly promote greed out of stupidity.
Rubin was a sellout!
hi teacher
Yes, how brave to go from monkey wrench to just another cog. His status dwindled over time so he simply found another way to increase it. Its clear that all that rhetoric merely for status.
So we actually got the point where we had the ultimate hoffman candidate (sanders) and the ultimate rubin candidate (h. clinton) and then neither of them won and we got trump. so was he elected by the "forgotten middle" who were remnants of reagan-style old america politics or was he something entirely different? i say different because his base is more diverse than that and actually a frankenstein mix of all three....it's partly that old america racism, partly the dark side of rubin's neoliberal capitalism, and partly the dark side of hoffman in the tendency to lean towards conspiracy and impracticality....it's a big mess. Add the internet to the equation and this mixing starts happening at hyperspeed and there's no way to unravel it, make sense of it, and come to a clear plan of what to do about...hence our back and forth presidencies that spend each term trying to block and undo everything the last did. I think the closest we came was Bernie because he had the right ideas and you'd like to think that rubin's baby boomer billionaries could have been swayed to them...but that is likely naive. Rubin's wall-street yuppies gave up revolution for the love of money and they are a big part of why Clinton became the candidate in the end. Biden, if we are lucky, might just be the trojan horse...the guy who looks a lot like a blending of the two (sanders/clinton) but really sees himself as FDR, a transition candidate to the AOC's and stuff like the green new deal....real ideas that are radical AND practical. let's hope that happens.
Genuinely brilliant comment, insightful and informative.
beautifully put
Best comment on the internet
Trump would have been ok if he was a fiscal leftist and wasn't so hellbent on maintaining a precedent over seas, but I digress
@@AdolfStalin No he would not have been ok even if he was less shit economically or imperially.
Why do writings that mention Abbie Hoffman's suicide so often question whether he'd given up on his beliefs and leave out the fact that he'd been injured in a car accident and was addicted to painkillers?
Can you release the full version? I can't find it anywhere.
born in 1936, was 32 y/o at '68 Democratic Convention. Not exactly representative of draft-age guys.
Yes it was I disagree.
also rubin sayin the 'clenched fist' is violence and macho-ness is a racist dogwhistle him and abbierwere fighting alongside w Black Panthers and rubin abandoned his solidarity with them and abbie did not
Sometimes the time comes when you just have to stop asking ,kick the fucking door down and get it yourself.
Excellent video. I'd love tobsee the full debate somewhere. It's actually fascinating seeing the evolution of the left and the two camps.
Thanks Tony...I tried to find the link for the full debate but couldn’t find it. If I find the video, I’ll link it.
ua-cam.com/video/UOFBAJ8BlJs/v-deo.html here you go friend
ua-cam.com/video/1AgYYhYFa7s/v-deo.htmlsi=J20c8suN2pJRYeUG
ua-cam.com/video/1AgYYhYFa7s/v-deo.htmlsi=J20c8suN2pJRYeUG
Sorry it took so long to reply
Is it nice in your snowstorm, Jerry?
The Progressive Left needs both a Ruben and Hoffman. It is possible to have both.
Well done. Thankyou
Jerry understood society and life and above all, understood the self imposing lies of the 60s. It was all a dream full of holes and hopes but based on lies and fantasies.
Yes, how brave to go from monkey wrench to just another cog. His status dwindled over time so he simply found another way to increase it. Makes one question if all that rhetoric was real or merely for status.
It’s great hearing Rubin speak his mind.
This is the first time I’ve heard him speak in this kind of pseudo debate setting.
(I happen to be 68.)
I like the fact that he changed with the times and matured.
But I still liked and respected Abbie Hoffman.
It's funny to say Rubin 'matured' by becoming a greed-driven creep promoting selfishness. He didn't mature in the least, he just changed his focus, but it was always primarily about his egotism, not anything for anybody else. He put on a suit and shaved and stayed every bit as selfish and full of shit as he ever was, even if he started talking slower and sounding less-paranoid.
what the fuck Jerry
Yea maaaan. Take drugs and tax the rich maaan
Great to see rubin matured evolved and grew the F up!
LMAO, he stayed selfish, he stayed egotistical, but he put on a suit and shaved so he could fuck people over and here you acting like that's 'maturity'. Our country is fucked because of morons buying into that bullshit.
Thanks to all of you who have watched and replied to this video. I made it for my students and thought it would only be viewed a few times. I am shocked and honored it has been viewed as much as it has been. Furthermore, I am glad it has generated discussion. Again, thanks for watching! :-)
Intro song?
Can you post the full video? I find it odd I can't find the full video anywhere on the internet.
HI MR GINGERICH!!!!
U should give us more candy and takis at school we deserve it 👹
W teacher mr G
One of the greatest human achievements in over a century
HAHAHAHAHAAHBA #1 Stan
Always very interesting to see the generation of the 60s and 70s who lived and preached love, freedom and individuality become soulless, corporate yuppies in the 80s.
its going to be the bullshit yuppie hippie rubin when it should be the radical Hoffman yippie hippie, which is this reflection on me is pretty self explanitory given my pfp.
The whole hippie scene was fake. The two loud mouthes were just that.
What the shit do you know? Were you there?
LMAO, that's the dumbest thing you could possibly say on the subject. Tell us you're a complete idiot some more. Oh yeah, you just did.
Estou vendo esse vídeo porque estou lendo Christopher Lasch e esse líder foi mencionado por ele. Sou um sociólogo brasileiro
Omg I love your video #1 mr g Stan is me
MR. G
Hey Jelly is Belly...hope you are well!!!!
IM HIS BEST STUDENT
WRONG I AM
MR G IS A W
FRRRR
"Apparent" is the key word regarding Hoffman's questionable suicide/death.
He was on the lamb from the law for a drug charge for a full decade, then the courts clear his record as he was set up by cops...and then when finally free he kills himself leaving his kids without a father...I wish someone would investigate further.
The disillusionment cause for suicide doesn't make sense either. Hoffman wasn't suddenly shocked by a conservative change. While on the lamb he was still inside the US and though under an assumed name he was very active in the environmental movement of the day.
I was one of those young people in 1989, "that Hoffman loved to much". And I don't remember anyone lamenting Hoffman's death, in fact it wasn't even on our radar. Seems to me what Hoffman loved the most was listening to himself talk. And boomers did get their POTUS in 1992, a cocaine dealing hick from Little Rock Arkansas. Perfect. The only surprise is that it was a not an East or West coast blue blood. It is NOW 2022 and we don't even have a baby boomer as POTUS, he is too old to be a baby boomer. What happened Boomers ? How's your 401k ?
LMAO, blurt out something dumber if you can come up with it but what you've got here is some real bottom-of-the-barrel lowbrow horseshit.
pls am i your favorite student?
Nah i am
@@Moonlark_Equestrian rude
@@sydneydalton8 lol
Sydney shush ur goofy mouth cuz u know that I’m the favorite...... stick to listening to Ariana grande on repeat or else I will eat all ur perfumes. 😊 I’m saying this is a very polite manner.
@@Someoneleft alrighty
Hoffmanns idea of a utopia community cant be sustained
And what idea is that? Why are you saying it can't be sustained when you can't even say what you're talking about? Don't pretend you're smart for being extremely simplistic.
Abbie said in a 1984 interview that the music was not as good today (1984) as it was in the 1960's and 1970's.Is he kidding! we had Quiet Riot,Night Ranger,Styx,Journey,Christopher Cross,Phil Collins,Loverboy,Twisted Sister,Ratt, Duran Duran, Lionel Richie,Sheena Easton,Huey Lewis and The News,Cindy Lauper,Prince,Culture Club,Adam and The Ants and etc,making great music in 1984.
Idk. Can that compare to Bob Dylan, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Frank Zappa, The Velvet Underground, Pink Floyd, Syd Barrett, Nick Drake, Leonard Cohen, David Bowie, Jimi Hendrix, Love, Phil Ochs, The Doors, John Coltrane, Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley, Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, The Stooges, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, James Brown, Patti Smith and Janis Joplin
Hoffman should clarify “not as good”...🤔...is this his reflection on which decade produced the most socially conscious music, or is he projecting more “Self Adulating Boomer Mythology?” My guess is latter over the former. But in the end, I’m sure the 80’s irritated Hoffman...12 years of Reagan & Bush was too much for some Hippies to tolerate...I always believe the political environment of the 80’s and the unfulfilled Hippy Revolution during that decade contributed to the depression of Hoffman, thus leading to his suicide by 1989.
well, don't trust anybody who thinks that quiet riot, twisted sister or duran duran is good music. there was good music in the 80s (cure, smiths, stray cats, jesus and mary chain) but they were not mainstream. there were some good mainstream music like prince and queen, but on avarage, 80s and 90s were the low points of pop music (even 00s and 10s are better)
Anyone who lists Night Ranger or Loverboy as bands that should help define what great music was during a decade, should not be commenting on what good music is.
Pretty sure this was sarcasm, and well done sarcasm.
Rubin was right.
Face facts.
It doesn't matter who you pretend to be on the week-end.
Facts are a matter of interpretation, Jerry only went back to his social class origins.
They both were right. It is not so simple. We need to find a balance between the two.
@@R2D2fhjks Facts are facts... analysis of facts can be interpretation, and by extension, opinion and bias
And what are the facts you're rapping about? Is that the Nazis run your country?
@@R2D2fhjks He actually grew up working-class. His father drove a truck.
time is money is opposite of hippiedom