@@1man1guitarletsgo what does this mean out of curiousity? I’m wanting to start into luthier work and like to ask about all kinds of possible knowledge to look into haha.
@@kennethlombera9165 Thanks for asking. Once the frets are perfectly level (but before crowning them), I place a couple of layers of masking tape on the twelfth fret, mark the tops of all the frets higher than 12 with a sharpie, and then run my levelling beam from the masking tape over these frets. The tape acts as a ramp, so at first the beam only lowers the last fret. As I continue working the beam, it removes material from the other frets right back to number 13. So, every fret from 13 onwards is slightly lower than the one before it. We're now ready to crown the frets, and because of the fallaway, can achieve the lowest possible action.
I do re leveling on my own guitars. I always try to minimize the amount of fret reduction by indexing flat to the top of the frets then leveling as little as possible to create an even plane vs referencing to the finger board
I straighten the neck using the truss rod. Level and round the frets. String it up and adjust the truss rod. Lower the action as low as i can before i get buzz which will be somewhere from where the neck joins the body to the last fret. Strings off and lower from the buzzing fret onwards. String it up and get the action as low as possible before repeating again if necessary. This gets my guitars action extremely low. Much lower than factory spec. Lower than most players prefer.
It most certainly does make sense, thank you. This video has made me realise that I should learn these techniques on my existing guitars before I start a build from scratch. Thanks again 👍
I guess I'm having trouble understanding why people would want the wood of the neck to have relief but have all of the frets on a single plane. To me, the whole point of neck relief is to prevent the widest point of string oscillation from touching the frets. Am I missing something?
The relief thing has kind of been debunked. Coventional wisdom says what you are saying. That's fine when u play an open string , but the largest part of the string oscilating changes relative to where you are fretting. If you play the 3rd fret, the widest oscilation isn't happening at the 7th fret anymore. It's at the 10th fret. Etc etc.
@@fuzzymuppet1990 But then why have any relief at all? What advantage does it provide, assuming there is no fret buzz when the neck is perfectly straight?
I 1000% agree with you on your first statement. You would have to introduce even more releif to get back to the proper relief. They do make leveling beam that have an adjustable truss rod built into the beam itself, so the beam can match the relief of the neck, and is performed under the string. That thing works pretty slick.
Nice one Chris. Love your comments about all guitars are different, sometimes neck construction/ material has such a great effect on how straight you can get it under tension, or the fretboard is ‘wavy’ , I find I have to use the frets themselves to achieve flatness. I know, best take em off, flatten the board and re fret but sometimes the client doesn’t want that, just a fret dress🥴 and as they are paying the bills they are the boss😎 Keep up the good work, you are an inspiration to all the luthier community. Ray
As always, great video. When building a new neck, I make the fretboard as flat and true as possible. If the frets are high quality and are properly pressed in, minimal if any fret leveling should be necessary. That's my goal, not always attainable but thats my goal. Of course the fret ends will still need to be addressed. When it comes to refrets and repairs, especially on older necks with curves and other fussy issues, that requires different skills, techniques and usually a few different tools too.
this choice when fret leveling has always confused me and fascinated me. that was great video and useful. I always wondered about the humps in the fretboard it self, and why sometimes when you adjust the truss rod it seems to react differently with each guitar even though you are sure you leveled the fingerboard before fretting. I suppose the woods different and bends at the weak points in the wood and the truss rod pushes slightly differently distributed pressure on the woods also in each guitar hence the variations in the board humps when strung up . cheers
I'm a big fan of Sam's method and have used it on over 100 guitars todate with great results. Apart from any other advantage, it does reduce the amount of fret metal you have to remove to get rid of chokes and buzzes. Plus with most necks , by the nature of wood, have peaks and troughs along the fretboard, this method gently takes this into account during the levelling process. I reallise it's not for everyone and there are valid arguments for the traditional fret levelling techniques, but it's definitely worth considering when you don't have a lot of fret metal to work and don't want to do a refret at this point.
@@HighlineGuitars Fair enough :) What would your issue be with the technique? Just curious as have used both traditional levelling and this other technique. Cheers 👍
I agree with Big Ed 10l0%. If you run the numbers on string angle to fret plane and the gap between the next fret and every fret beyond that, you quickly come to the conclusion that Big Ed has come to. The only fret that matters is the one just beyond the fret you are playing. Hence, all you really need to do is apply a fret rocker as you are installing frets, do a couple of final checks and "Fret Kisser" adjustments once all the frets are in, and you are good to go. I have never understood why you would want to take 22 perfectly clean and polished new frets and grind the tops off. Absolutely not necessary. Thanks Big Ed, Doug, Portland OR.
@@Doug-v9o My goal when fretting is to have a perfectly flat fingerboard and carefully install the frets where fret leveling new frets is not needed. There may be a couple frets that need attention, but not every fret. The harder the wood, the easier this goal is to achieve.
If you do the fretwork with a relief, wouldn't you be limiting yourself to playing with close to that relief permanently? Or until you reworked the frets.
I found that a fret rocker should be used only on a guitar that is very close to start with. It's a maintenance tool. To bring the neck in, check to see if the neck angle is good. If not, it needs a neck reset first. From there, the truss rod is backed off, fret board leveled using at least an 8" leveler. Then frets, crowned and polished. String it up and set the open tuning range you prefer. Then adjust the truss rod to get the relieve you want. My Martin likes the relief tight, around 0.004 to 0.008". To get low action, you must start off with a level board and frets.
I saw a video from StewMac where Dan and his assistant went through the whole jig system. After they were done, his assistant went after that fretboard like somebody shaping a surfboard. I mean, he really leaned into it. The whole situation went over my head. Why in the world would you want to level the frets on a guitar with a bowed neck? Of course, I went back months later to look for the video and could not find it... Warmoth builds their guitar necks with a back bow in them, not flat. That doesn't make any sense to me. I watched the video on the katana system, but that seems awfully fickle. I'm sure you can take some buzz out, if you're careful. But I wasn't convinced. If the whole point is to get the frets and the fretboard flat, then what's with all the voo-doo?
there is only one thing that is important. the string height from a fretted fret to next one. the overall fretboard level doesn't matter. try to understand.
In the example of the touring musician you gave, wouldn't something like the StewMac Fret Kisser accomplish the same adhoc fret-leveling use case that the Katana does? It seems highly unlikely that a full leveling would need to be done on the road
I'm personally not fond of leveling frets with the neck relief because of a big chance that after the frets are leveled there will be too little trussrod release headroom to get the proper action. I prefer to level the frets with a slight back bow (really slight) to make sure the neck has enough trussrod release headroom. That also helps to prevent the S-curve of the neck when the strings are tuned.
I agree about using a flat beam with relief. You will just end up with leveled frets on a bowed neck. Then, once leveled, you're going to have to add another .0010 relief? Get outta here. This will def work with those sanding beams with the truss rods in them to match the releif in the neck tho.
Now a question for Chris. Have you ever had a situation where you install frets on a flat fret board and the induced back bow from the fret pressure is so large that you can not adjust it out with a single action truss rod, even under string tension? I've always used double action rods, but even then I've has some builds where I had to crank on the front-bow just to get the neck straight. I'd be interested in hearing from others as well. Are there and good methods or remedies to minimize the back bow from fret pressure in the slots?
If you're dealing with a single action rod and that issue after fretting, string it up for a few days with the truss rod loose, You could even tune it a half step high - depending on what kind of guitar you're dealing wth. If the backbend is still there after a few days you'll have to pull the frets and either get frets with a thinner tang or widen the slots. I have seen a tool for shaving the barbs on the tang to reduce the wedging effect, but I would be hesitant to go that route.
Do what Gibson does. Put it on a PLEK machine for ultimate precision and then ship the guitar out with high nut action with string binding, an awful setup and childlike soldering. Gives us plenty to tinker with 😂😂😂
@@HighlineGuitars Haha but I have a feeling you know my story is true🤣 well happy with it now though it doesn't have a single piece of original hardware or electronics, she's a keeper👍🏻 Would the collectors agree? Well, if they see more value in all original more fool them 🤣🤣🤣
@@jamescarter1088 dunno about ultimate precision, I feel like every other Gibson I set up has very mediocre/poor fretwork lol. 100% on point in regards to the nut
@@bleh8789 Yeah it's a fairly recent innovation called "Square top frets". It's like having a whammy bar built into them. This enables you to try to guess what the intonation will be dependant on how hard or soft you fret the chord 😂
Theres something to say for leveling under tension with older acoustics since they can get a little squirley at the body join. Dont think theres any good reason to do it on a new neck
@@karelenhenkie666 exactly. Fretting a newly built neck that should have a perfectly flat fingerboard is totally different than working on an old guitars with fussy necks. Different skills, techniques and tools are required.
In a less than a perfect situation, the katana would be the wonderful tool. Sam Deeks' banana works too. With the banana method I seem to get less buzzing on my old azz guitarz 😂
I thought that this guy would be worth a look, as he uses a variation on the Katans fret levelling method. His comments regarding the benefits of doing the fret levelling with the neck under string tension seem to make a lot of sense, especially the way that a neck under tension can result in groups of frets seeming to be higher or lower than expected, due to the effects of the upper surface of the fretboard becoming compressed and distorting unevenly. ua-cam.com/video/8lXMqaRbvN4/v-deo.html
I string up so it's under tension, flaten the neck then use a precision flat understring level. Back off the truss rod to get my relief polish frets. Works great for me.
This video is making my head hurt. You said you can level the frets with the fretboard in simulated relief using a leveling beam which follows that bow, maintaining uniform fret height to fingerboard. Isn't that exactly the same as leveling the fret board while flat and then adjusting for relief when strung? This whole concept seems counter intuitive and convoluted.
@@shredmonster76 I guess you missed the part where I said that using an adjustable beam is exactly the same as the way I prefer to level by using a straight beam on a flat neck.
Hum. I work on guitars all day. I saw rhis and I have to admit, it would have been more informative if the video was cut down to about 4 minutes. Making it long just made it confusing way off topic.
Perfectly level fingerboard. Fret. Level frets. Crown frets. Let the string tension and truss rod do their job.
This is the way I prefer to do it as well. Simple and works for me.
I agree, with the addition of "generate fallaway from the twelfth fret" before crowning. That way you can get the action a bit lower without buzzing.
@@1man1guitarletsgo what does this mean out of curiousity? I’m wanting to start into luthier work and like to ask about all kinds of possible knowledge to look into haha.
@@kennethlombera9165 Thanks for asking. Once the frets are perfectly level (but before crowning them), I place a couple of layers of masking tape on the twelfth fret, mark the tops of all the frets higher than 12 with a sharpie, and then run my levelling beam from the masking tape over these frets. The tape acts as a ramp, so at first the beam only lowers the last fret. As I continue working the beam, it removes material from the other frets right back to number 13. So, every fret from 13 onwards is slightly lower than the one before it. We're now ready to crown the frets, and because of the fallaway, can achieve the lowest possible action.
Excellent discussion Chris, pertinent for any projects , past , present and future . All bases covered, and then some , thankyou.
I do re leveling on my own guitars. I always try to minimize the amount of fret reduction by indexing flat to the top of the frets then leveling as little as possible to create an even plane vs referencing to the finger board
I straighten the neck using the truss rod. Level and round the frets. String it up and adjust the truss rod. Lower the action as low as i can before i get buzz which will be somewhere from where the neck joins the body to the last fret. Strings off and lower from the buzzing fret onwards. String it up and get the action as low as possible before repeating again if necessary.
This gets my guitars action extremely low. Much lower than factory spec. Lower than most players prefer.
I level with a flat board using the truss rod also:) Thanks Chris!
It most certainly does make sense, thank you.
This video has made me realise that I should learn these techniques on my existing guitars before I start a build from scratch.
Thanks again 👍
You talk a lot of sense. Thanks for you thoughts and time.
Very interesting video. Thankyou.
I guess I'm having trouble understanding why people would want the wood of the neck to have relief but have all of the frets on a single plane. To me, the whole point of neck relief is to prevent the widest point of string oscillation from touching the frets. Am I missing something?
The relief thing has kind of been debunked. Coventional wisdom says what you are saying. That's fine when u play an open string , but the largest part of the string oscilating changes relative to where you are fretting. If you play the 3rd fret, the widest oscilation isn't happening at the 7th fret anymore. It's at the 10th fret. Etc etc.
@@fuzzymuppet1990 But then why have any relief at all? What advantage does it provide, assuming there is no fret buzz when the neck is perfectly straight?
I 1000% agree with you on your first statement. You would have to introduce even more releif to get back to the proper relief. They do make leveling beam that have an adjustable truss rod built into the beam itself, so the beam can match the relief of the neck, and is performed under the string. That thing works pretty slick.
@HandlebarWorkshops Chris made a video about it a while ago. He explains it better than i can.
@@HandlebarWorkshopsthat would also depend on the setup of the nut as well as the bridge/saddle (electric/accoustic)
4:51 by this point I had my answer. Thanks Chris!
Nice one Chris. Love your comments about all guitars are different, sometimes neck construction/ material has such a great effect on how straight you can get it under tension, or the fretboard is ‘wavy’ , I find I have to use the frets themselves to achieve flatness. I know, best take em off, flatten the board and re fret but sometimes the client doesn’t want that, just a fret dress🥴 and as they are paying the bills they are the boss😎
Keep up the good work, you are an inspiration to all the luthier community.
Ray
As always, great video.
When building a new neck, I make the fretboard as flat and true as possible. If the frets are high quality and are properly pressed in, minimal if any fret leveling should be necessary. That's my goal, not always attainable but thats my goal. Of course the fret ends will still need to be addressed.
When it comes to refrets and repairs, especially on older necks with curves and other fussy issues, that requires different skills, techniques and usually a few different tools too.
this choice when fret leveling has always confused me and fascinated me. that was great video and useful. I always wondered about the humps in the fretboard it self, and why sometimes when you adjust the truss rod it seems to react differently with each guitar even though you are sure you leveled the fingerboard before fretting. I suppose the woods different and bends at the weak points in the wood and the truss rod pushes slightly differently distributed pressure on the woods also in each guitar hence the variations in the board humps when strung up . cheers
I never thought about trying to level the frets with relief. My goal is to have as little relief, if any, as possible when I'm done.
I'm here let's get going
Check out Sam Deeks and his use of his Banana tool, (it's a truss rod with sand paper stuck onto it, it works very well).
I'm a big fan of Sam's method and have used it on over 100 guitars todate with great results. Apart from any other advantage, it does reduce the amount of fret metal you have to remove to get rid of chokes and buzzes. Plus with most necks , by the nature of wood, have peaks and troughs along the fretboard, this method gently takes this into account during the levelling process. I reallise it's not for everyone and there are valid arguments for the traditional fret levelling techniques, but it's definitely worth considering when you don't have a lot of fret metal to work and don't want to do a refret at this point.
I have. Not my cup of tea, but good for a laugh.
@@HighlineGuitars Fair enough :) What would your issue be with the technique? Just curious as have used both traditional levelling and this other technique. Cheers 👍
@@martin-1965 He's using a truss rod as a leveling beam, which is not its intended purpose. For one thing, they are too narrow.
@@womplestilskin I wonder how many professional luthiers use a truss rod as a leveling beam? 🤣
I agree with Big Ed 10l0%. If you run the numbers on string angle to fret plane and the gap between the next fret and every fret beyond that, you quickly come to the conclusion that Big Ed has come to. The only fret that matters is the one just beyond the fret you are playing. Hence, all you really need to do is apply a fret rocker as you are installing frets, do a couple of final checks and "Fret Kisser" adjustments once all the frets are in, and you are good to go. I have never understood why you would want to take 22 perfectly clean and polished new frets and grind the tops off. Absolutely not necessary. Thanks Big Ed, Doug, Portland OR.
Except when you press a string down to say the 15th fret and it touches the 23rd fret because it's too high.
@@Doug-v9o My goal when fretting is to have a perfectly flat fingerboard and carefully install the frets where fret leveling new frets is not needed. There may be a couple frets that need attention, but not every fret. The harder the wood, the easier this goal is to achieve.
If you do the fretwork with a relief, wouldn't you be limiting yourself to playing with close to that relief permanently? Or until you reworked the frets.
The idea is not to create some relief but to do the leveling under normal string tension.
I found that a fret rocker should be used only on a guitar that is very close to start with. It's a maintenance tool. To bring the neck in, check to see if the neck angle is good. If not, it needs a neck reset first. From there, the truss rod is backed off, fret board leveled using at least an 8" leveler. Then frets, crowned and polished. String it up and set the open tuning range you prefer. Then adjust the truss rod to get the relieve you want. My Martin likes the relief tight, around 0.004 to 0.008". To get low action, you must start off with a level board and frets.
I saw a video from StewMac where Dan and his assistant went through the whole jig system. After they were done, his assistant went after that fretboard like somebody shaping a surfboard. I mean, he really leaned into it. The whole situation went over my head. Why in the world would you want to level the frets on a guitar with a bowed neck? Of course, I went back months later to look for the video and could not find it... Warmoth builds their guitar necks with a back bow in them, not flat. That doesn't make any sense to me. I watched the video on the katana system, but that seems awfully fickle. I'm sure you can take some buzz out, if you're careful. But I wasn't convinced. If the whole point is to get the frets and the fretboard flat, then what's with all the voo-doo?
there is only one thing that is important. the string height from a fretted fret to next one.
the overall fretboard level doesn't matter. try to understand.
Personally I induce a slight upward bow so that I can put more tension on the truss rod, weird?
In the example of the touring musician you gave, wouldn't something like the StewMac Fret Kisser accomplish the same adhoc fret-leveling use case that the Katana does? It seems highly unlikely that a full leveling would need to be done on the road
I'm personally not fond of leveling frets with the neck relief because of a big chance that after the frets are leveled there will be too little trussrod release headroom to get the proper action.
I prefer to level the frets with a slight back bow (really slight) to make sure the neck has enough trussrod release headroom. That also helps to prevent the S-curve of the neck when the strings are tuned.
I agree about using a flat beam with relief. You will just end up with leveled frets on a bowed neck. Then, once leveled, you're going to have to add another .0010 relief? Get outta here. This will def work with those sanding beams with the truss rods in them to match the releif in the neck tho.
Now a question for Chris. Have you ever had a situation where you install frets on a flat fret board and the induced back bow from the fret pressure is so large that you can not adjust it out with a single action truss rod, even under string tension? I've always used double action rods, but even then I've has some builds where I had to crank on the front-bow just to get the neck straight. I'd be interested in hearing from others as well. Are there and good methods or remedies to minimize the back bow from fret pressure in the slots?
I've never had that problem with the guitars I make. Probably because the slots I mill are slightly wider than the norm.
If you're dealing with a single action rod and that issue after fretting, string it up for a few days with the truss rod loose, You could even tune it a half step high - depending on what kind of guitar you're dealing wth. If the backbend is still there after a few days you'll have to pull the frets and either get frets with a thinner tang or widen the slots. I have seen a tool for shaving the barbs on the tang to reduce the wedging effect, but I would be hesitant to go that route.
Do what Gibson does. Put it on a PLEK machine for ultimate precision and then ship the guitar out with high nut action with string binding, an awful setup and childlike soldering. Gives us plenty to tinker with 😂😂😂
I just shot milk out of my nose at this comment. Thanks for the laugh! Now where are my paper towels?
@@HighlineGuitars Haha but I have a feeling you know my story is true🤣 well happy with it now though it doesn't have a single piece of original hardware or electronics, she's a keeper👍🏻 Would the collectors agree? Well, if they see more value in all original more fool them 🤣🤣🤣
Haha, so true. Don't forget hit it with a hammer to maximize profit 🙂
@@jamescarter1088 dunno about ultimate precision, I feel like every other Gibson I set up has very mediocre/poor fretwork lol. 100% on point in regards to the nut
@@bleh8789 Yeah it's a fairly recent innovation called "Square top frets". It's like having a whammy bar built into them. This enables you to try to guess what the intonation will be dependant on how hard or soft you fret the chord 😂
I do both. That either means I'm smart or that I'm confused.
Level the frets over a curved neck?
Theres something to say for leveling under tension with older acoustics since they can get a little squirley at the body join. Dont think theres any good reason to do it on a new neck
@@karelenhenkie666 exactly. Fretting a newly built neck that should have a perfectly flat fingerboard is totally different than working on an old guitars with fussy necks. Different skills, techniques and tools are required.
In a less than a perfect situation, the katana would be the wonderful tool. Sam Deeks' banana works too. With the banana method I seem to get less buzzing on my old azz guitarz 😂
I thought that this guy would be worth a look, as he uses a variation on the Katans fret levelling method. His comments regarding the benefits of doing the fret levelling with the neck under string tension seem to make a lot of sense, especially the way that a neck under tension can result in groups of frets seeming to be higher or lower than expected, due to the effects of the upper surface of the fretboard becoming compressed and distorting unevenly. ua-cam.com/video/8lXMqaRbvN4/v-deo.html
I string up so it's under tension, flaten the neck then use a precision flat understring level. Back off the truss rod to get my relief polish frets. Works great for me.
This video is making my head hurt. You said you can level the frets with the fretboard in simulated relief using a leveling beam which follows that bow, maintaining uniform fret height to fingerboard. Isn't that exactly the same as leveling the fret board while flat and then adjusting for relief when strung? This whole concept seems counter intuitive and convoluted.
@@shredmonster76 I guess you missed the part where I said that using an adjustable beam is exactly the same as the way I prefer to level by using a straight beam on a flat neck.
Rethink how the strings move.
Hum. I work on guitars all day. I saw rhis and I have to admit, it would have been more informative if the video was cut down to about 4 minutes. Making it long just made it confusing way off topic.
Sorry, but videos have to be at least 8 minutes in length to earn mid roll ad revenue.