Dude, losing by a “physically immeasurable” distance really sucks. I agree that measuring power needs redundancy in pro races on Zwift. You’re definitely doing the right thing here.
I watched the race live , you hit the sprint perfectly , that's what I love about you , you learn from your mistakes and evolve , that was the best sprint you've ever done !!!! Keep showing the world real life strong cyclist can win at zwift
Damn right Lionel! e-sport is growing fast and must be structured and regulated properly. You are showing the way. Much respect for what you do and bring to our sport.
You're on the leading edge of a new category for cycling and looking at data is incredibly important. I've followed your career for a few years now and I really appreciate how honest you are - in all your videos. Its that honesty that keeps bringing me back. Keep it up!
Groundbreaking post this. Setting the standard, now others will have no choice but to follow. Will also be of huge help to Zwift to help refine their algos for improved realism.
Totally agree. When you work that hard to train, you can put out the effort into presenting the data to make it totally fair for sure. BTW..love seeing your improvement in tactics.
Zwift - Make this guy your poster boy if you have not already! He is winning races and the biggest advocate of what you do with a massive following. Lionel should be your spokesperson for cycling esports!!!
Hey Lionel. You are a true athlete as someone who is willing to go head-to-head without any gimmicks straight up win or lose. You are 100% on the money that there must be some way to ensure an even playing field with respect to the power meters. As an old man triathlete it's great to see someone like you. I was starting to think that the world is getting soft and that there weren't any tough guys left. I'm glad you came along. You're a tough guy and a great athlete. I'm looking forward to seeing you when Kona someday in the future. Keep hammering on.
Lionel: you are leading the way on this! Keep it up! This is a golden opportunity for Zwift.......figure it out, make it transparent, and who knows how high this is gonna fly. So much untapped potential here!
Thanks Lionel for making getting me to do races. You made me realize it isn't so much about your results but more about putting in the best effort you can and challenging yourself.
I'm not a great numbers guy, but it is great to see you being transparent. I mean, my watch and bike computer each showed a different overall power for my ride that I did, measuring the same power meter, so there are definitely discrepencies. Love that you care enough to show everyone and also just having races and even in the virtual world trying to make it as fair as possible.
This is a great idea. I guess professionals are likely to have access to multiple power meters. If all do this process it would add comfort to which power meters are most accurate too. Great race 💪
Thanks a lot for using your channel to promote dual-recording to a wider audience. It's not perfect but it's definitely a step up from what we've got. There is some good news, that after a fair amount of lobbying Zwift has now updated their eSports guidelines and demands dual-recording, submission of power-files in advance and a pre-recorded performance test. This is massive and what we have been asking for for a while. The downside is that this is only relevant to the top races - but it's a start!
If you want a 4th power meter you could use a crank spider based power meter such as a Quarq meter. Still measures total power not single side as the force from both crank arms goes through spider
I think what you're recommending/doing is the way to go. I think that weigh-ins before a race should be done as well to make sure that you can't cheat that way. Big Kudos to you for being so transparent and for trying to turn this into something amazing👍🏼 Keep it up, stay safe & healthy and best of luck for your training and racing from Germany ✌🏼
As a Zwifter, I really like the effort you put into this! And a massive shout-out to Zwift Power in my opinion. Where would we be without it? The only way we are going to measure and track all of these variables is through a well organized tool like Zwift Power. Oh, I long for the day when we have Wifi scales with tiny cameras that will measure and record you as you weigh in (just wear clothes please!)
Lionel, thoughts on a hosted training ride or something? Group ride...I would think that would draw quite a crowd in support of your vision. Perhaps answering some questions about e-racing. Second question (man I hope to get an answer): What are your thoughts on Zwift racing and training for Ironman? Would it be detrimental because Ironman is TOTALLY different from Zwift racing? Or do you view it as like interval / threshold sessions in compliment to your other riding? Ride on, brother!
Transparency - Big ups to doing this man. Obviously not everyone has or could afford a 2/3 power meter setup, but I do think a "pro" virtual race should require a minimum of two (pedal / crank / trainer / hub). Love this consideration and effort!
Great video and insight on the data! There should definitely be at least 1 power meter file to validate the power, 3 is ideal as you explain in the video but understandably some people won’t have both pedal based and a crank based Power meter.
Isn't the rule for "immeasurable" distance in cycling based on momentum of who was moving fastest at the end? Either way unbelievable to watch and great by setting an example. Thanks for being transparent as I know a lot of pros don't like to because it gives competition something to compare.
The only issue is not everyone can afford 3 power meter. Also ideally use the PM that has a strain gauge so in your case pedals and cranks would be more accurate than the trainer.
Pretty sure the caliber of professional athletes that Lionel is talking about here are making enough money to buy a pair of assioma pedals and a stages crank.
great stuff Lionel! I think it's awesome that you did all that analysis in the name of fairness. Do you think guys should weigh themselves right before races as well?
You would have won if you have had used the Assioma's on this race! However, applying this to the real world scenario, your bike is as fast as what it transfers to the wheels thru the drivechain, not the actual output you put out to the pedals. This indeed needs to be clarified and standardized for evey Pro athletics in E-Races. Keep up the good work!
interesting and thoughtful commentary as usual! I wonder if it would be worthwhile for Zwift or some governing body to make standardized/calibrated/verified power meters available? Seems like it would be well worth the effort/cost. Having the top riders on the same trainers could also be helpful but perhaps not required if redundant, verified power meters are used...and of course weigh-ins...
You have respectfully laid the challenge down for your pro peers. The IRL mindset needs to be practiced as well as the body to stay in tune with getting back to the outdoor season and competing fair.
the zwift algorithm needs to account for cornering by slowing down a rider or bunch, accelerating away from corners, and stringing a bunch out. at the min its just a constant pedalling scenario with little surging. theres very little breaking up done on the road. it needs to be tweeked for racing.
Great video and kudos for transparency... Should be the standard for Pros. On the technical side, allow loss of power due to efficiency transmission losses from power readings at the pedals vs the trainer...
Nice Video, i never understood why zwift doesnt automatically dnf quys without hearthrate and above a certain w/kg level. Zwiftpower does a bit better, but for professional level Zwift should demand more than one powersource. Surely u can also make 2 Powersources show higher wattage, but its way better than one. Everyone at a certain level has more than one Powersource available. For really big races like nationals Zwift mb should even make the competitors come to a lokal Place where they supply the powermeters used so everyone has the same.
Good man, I think it's a stretch to expect 3 meters. For instance I'll never not use speedplays, so trainer + actual PM could be easily enforceable but that already way less controlled. I thought the issue with zwift is the weight people input.
the exact same thing happened to me; same time and put to 2nd; btw - my (now old) bkool shows 200 watts more than my kickr at my top end. thats C to A racing.
Didn't realise you could do this on zwiftpower. I want to see how my assimmo and tacx neo compare. If there is a big difference, then i think it's time for a new bike.
Great initiative too. Zwift needs to figure out how to get multiple power meters to measure the power during the race too. 2 minimum. Then Zwift calculates the power from the average of those multiple power meters.
Perfect Lionel. apart from that you guys know who ‘s cheating! Like I know in my own circle of cyclists. Guys that normally are not so strong but on zwift are kingpin. The strong guys will follow up your initiative. The weak ones will not.
well spoken, intelligent, respectful, and a beast on the bike. a truly honorable athlete.
It’s very easy to like what LS does and how he goes about it.
Dude, losing by a “physically immeasurable” distance really sucks. I agree that measuring power needs redundancy in pro races on Zwift. You’re definitely doing the right thing here.
I watched the race live , you hit the sprint perfectly , that's what I love about you , you learn from your mistakes and evolve , that was the best sprint you've ever done !!!! Keep showing the world real life strong cyclist can win at zwift
Typically don't like triathletes but 100% agree with this video Lionel you rock!!! Tons of Respect
Zwift is so open to fudging - kudos on super transparency
Legend! You could be an ambassador for this stuff!
No questionable Lionel, you're one of the few top athletes sharing your data since years. A truly legit and exemplary person. Thanks
Dude I trust your numbers without question bud.
It’s beautiful to see how much this man loves the sport
Damn right Lionel! e-sport is growing fast and must be structured and regulated properly. You are showing the way. Much respect for what you do and bring to our sport.
Thank you for being so candid and transparent - the world of sports need more people like you.
You're on the leading edge of a new category for cycling and looking at data is incredibly important. I've followed your career for a few years now and I really appreciate how honest you are - in all your videos. Its that honesty that keeps bringing me back. Keep it up!
Lionel you are the realest dude out there ever, hardly one on this chanel is doubting your number and your way to approach is superb. Thanks a lot
Groundbreaking post this. Setting the standard, now others will have no choice but to follow. Will also be of huge help to Zwift to help refine their algos for improved realism.
Totally agree. When you work that hard to train, you can put out the effort into presenting the data to make it totally fair for sure.
BTW..love seeing your improvement in tactics.
This whole time I thought you were questioning the 1st place legitemcy!!! LOl. You are the real deal!
Zwift - Make this guy your poster boy if you have not already! He is winning races and the biggest advocate of what you do with a massive following. Lionel should be your spokesperson for cycling esports!!!
Hey Lionel. You are a true athlete as someone who is willing to go head-to-head without any gimmicks straight up win or lose. You are 100% on the money that there must be some way to ensure an even playing field with respect to the power meters. As an old man triathlete it's great to see someone like you. I was starting to think that the world is getting soft and that there weren't any tough guys left. I'm glad you came along. You're a tough guy and a great athlete. I'm looking forward to seeing you when Kona someday in the future. Keep hammering on.
Outstanding. True competition for its own sake. Really admire the transparency. Thank you.
Lionel: you are leading the way on this! Keep it up! This is a golden opportunity for Zwift.......figure it out, make it transparent, and who knows how high this is gonna fly. So much untapped potential here!
You are truly an upstanding person Lionel. Someone we can all look up to. Thank you.
Thanks Lionel for making getting me to do races. You made me realize it isn't so much about your results but more about putting in the best effort you can and challenging yourself.
Awesome race, your determination, grit and honesty are compelling. Thanks for sharing and trying to make the sport happen!
Lionel, don’t doubt you for a second, but for true transparency, should we have a live weighing in before each race too?
Yes.
Absolutely
On 3 scales because we will face the same issue as with powermeters? 🤣
lionel films his weigh ins also
I get worried people alter their weigh in scales. Most of them have adjusters on the back or under the scale. does anyone know how to combat that?
I'm not a great numbers guy, but it is great to see you being transparent. I mean, my watch and bike computer each showed a different overall power for my ride that I did, measuring the same power meter, so there are definitely discrepencies. Love that you care enough to show everyone and also just having races and even in the virtual world trying to make it as fair as possible.
thx for the transparency! you rock Lionel! sick power output!
Love this on so many levels! Another reason to love LS!
great video.excellent points made
u truly are an inspiration to all athletes over the world!!
Okay the end of this video is really funny. Well done!
Love your mindset and how bad you want to put this into the next level of no cheating !! You are a beast champion
Wait until the real racing starts.. the improvements that your making on the turbo will be massive come racing outside. 👍👏
You are absolutely correct. I see no reason why this is not the case when it comes to professionals, especially.
Hello Lionel, i love your transparency. Chapeau
This is a great idea. I guess professionals are likely to have access to multiple power meters. If all do this process it would add comfort to which power meters are most accurate too. Great race 💪
Thanks a lot for using your channel to promote dual-recording to a wider audience. It's not perfect but it's definitely a step up from what we've got. There is some good news, that after a fair amount of lobbying Zwift has now updated their eSports guidelines and demands dual-recording, submission of power-files in advance and a pre-recorded performance test. This is massive and what we have been asking for for a while. The downside is that this is only relevant to the top races - but it's a start!
good work on the data Lionel. I agree its definitely something needed for the top level pros to make things fair and as honest as possible.
Great video, thanks for the info on power file uploads!!
Legend, leading by example. Way to go Mr Sanders!
I love the transparency!
I think this is a great way to check on all the riders and their numbers
If you want a 4th power meter you could use a crank spider based power meter such as a Quarq meter. Still measures total power not single side as the force from both crank arms goes through spider
legit racing, I Love how real Lionel is!
this is true e-sport, full respect
I think what you're recommending/doing is the way to go. I think that weigh-ins before a race should be done as well to make sure that you can't cheat that way. Big Kudos to you for being so transparent and for trying to turn this into something amazing👍🏼 Keep it up, stay safe & healthy and best of luck for your training and racing from Germany ✌🏼
That’s actually a good solution to a tricky problem. I hope it gains traction.
Strong and smart move!
Would love to see a zwift duathlon featuring all the pros. Come on Zwift, make it happen!
A lot of respect for you! Hat off !
Well done !! Keep pushing, you doing great things for E Sports
Lets go Lionel! Fricking awesome example set 👏
kudos to this guy for promoting clean and fair raing!!!
As a Zwifter, I really like the effort you put into this! And a massive shout-out to Zwift Power in my opinion. Where would we be without it? The only way we are going to measure and track all of these variables is through a well organized tool like Zwift Power. Oh, I long for the day when we have Wifi scales with tiny cameras that will measure and record you as you weigh in (just wear clothes please!)
This is why in technical trades we're constantly sending measuring devices to calibration centers.
Lionel, thoughts on a hosted training ride or something? Group ride...I would think that would draw quite a crowd in support of your vision. Perhaps answering some questions about e-racing. Second question (man I hope to get an answer): What are your thoughts on Zwift racing and training for Ironman? Would it be detrimental because Ironman is TOTALLY different from Zwift racing? Or do you view it as like interval / threshold sessions in compliment to your other riding? Ride on, brother!
Pretty cool stuff, Lionel!
It would be awesome to see all the zwifters come together in a central location this fall and race outside.
Transparency - Big ups to doing this man. Obviously not everyone has or could afford a 2/3 power meter setup, but I do think a "pro" virtual race should require a minimum of two (pedal / crank / trainer / hub). Love this consideration and effort!
Here, here Lionel. Well said.
I absolutely agree a 3% range on a max out Sprint is huge difference.
this is awesome Lionel. thanks for keeping it real
Lionel is just amazing!
Great video and insight on the data! There should definitely be at least 1 power meter file to validate the power, 3 is ideal as you explain in the video but understandably some people won’t have both pedal based and a crank based Power meter.
Isn't the rule for "immeasurable" distance in cycling based on momentum of who was moving fastest at the end?
Either way unbelievable to watch and great by setting an example. Thanks for being transparent as I know a lot of pros don't like to because it gives competition something to compare.
For now this is by far one of the best ways to do it.. So +1 from here =)
The only issue is not everyone can afford 3 power meter. Also ideally use the PM that has a strain gauge so in your case pedals and cranks would be more accurate than the trainer.
Pretty sure the caliber of professional athletes that Lionel is talking about here are making enough money to buy a pair of assioma pedals and a stages crank.
sending the A cats pedals would be easy apart from the speed play weirdos
All zwifters should weigh in prior to the race beginning.
I think they weigh in the morning of
The first 5 positions have to send they're weight
Lionel does this on a Weight Watchers scale, @LionelSanders get a WiFi scales. Garmin Index Smart Scale ;)
Excellent Race Sir!!
great stuff Lionel! I think it's awesome that you did all that analysis in the name of fairness. Do you think guys should weigh themselves right before races as well?
You would have won if you have had used the Assioma's on this race! However, applying this to the real world scenario, your bike is as fast as what it transfers to the wheels thru the drivechain, not the actual output you put out to the pedals. This indeed needs to be clarified and standardized for evey Pro athletics in E-Races. Keep up the good work!
Good old Lionel. Legend.
I love what you're doing for e-sports brotha. Keep it up. Also you're a fucking beast.
Well done, Mr. Sanders, Sir ;)
Great Works！Lionel
I was on the edge of my seat for that finish! Great work 🤙
You are the guy. Congrats for exemple
100% respect for you.
Guys, it’s Zwift. Chill.
You rock! Kicks ass and 100% honest
Lionel you're a gentleman and a shcolar!
Well done Sir.
interesting and thoughtful commentary as usual! I wonder if it would be worthwhile for Zwift or some governing body to make standardized/calibrated/verified power meters available? Seems like it would be well worth the effort/cost. Having the top riders on the same trainers could also be helpful but perhaps not required if redundant, verified power meters are used...and of course weigh-ins...
you should try the hour record, your treshold power is huge. dowset did it with 360w
You have respectfully laid the challenge down for your pro peers. The IRL mindset needs to be practiced as well as the body to stay in tune with getting back to the outdoor season and competing fair.
getting better and better on your sprint :)
Outstanding 👏👏👏
the zwift algorithm needs to account for cornering by slowing down a rider or bunch, accelerating away from corners, and stringing a bunch out. at the min its just a constant pedalling scenario with little surging. theres very little breaking up done on the road. it needs to be tweeked for racing.
Great video and kudos for transparency... Should be the standard for Pros.
On the technical side, allow loss of power due to efficiency transmission losses from power readings at the pedals vs the trainer...
Nice Video, i never understood why zwift doesnt automatically dnf quys without hearthrate and above a certain w/kg level. Zwiftpower does a bit better, but for professional level Zwift should demand more than one powersource. Surely u can also make 2 Powersources show higher wattage, but its way better than one. Everyone at a certain level has more than one Powersource available. For really big races like nationals Zwift mb should even make the competitors come to a lokal Place where they supply the powermeters used so everyone has the same.
Hey mr. Sanders, where can I buy the shorts you usually run whith? They are to fashion!
12:16 🤣this just made my day🤣
Good man, I think it's a stretch to expect 3 meters. For instance I'll never not use speedplays, so trainer + actual PM could be easily enforceable but that already way less controlled. I thought the issue with zwift is the weight people input.
Come on ITU next year! You are ready to win it!
The biggest thing I learned here is to use pedals for power on Zwift to win more races.
the exact same thing happened to me; same time and put to 2nd; btw - my (now old) bkool shows 200 watts more than my kickr at my top end. thats C to A racing.
Do you think that from all this fast racing that you'll have better bike legs when you can compete in real world this year? Great racing Lionel!
Didn't realise you could do this on zwiftpower. I want to see how my assimmo and tacx neo compare. If there is a big difference, then i think it's time for a new bike.
Great initiative too. Zwift needs to figure out how to get multiple power meters to measure the power during the race too. 2 minimum. Then Zwift calculates the power from the average of those multiple power meters.
Perfect Lionel. apart from that you guys know who ‘s cheating! Like I know in my own circle of cyclists. Guys that normally are not so strong but on zwift are kingpin. The strong guys will follow up your initiative. The weak ones will not.
Well said! 👏🏼