What about inverted rows? should i do them and do they help to build a good back mixed with pull-ups? i have a weight belt so progressive overload wouldnt be a problem i guess but yeah.
@@lucashenriques4242 Inverted rows can be progressively overloaded by decreasing the incline, elevating your feet and there are harder variations like the front lever row (absolutely brutal actually). Weight belt isnt that necessary for that IMO. For something like the dip, yeah it is.
Presumably, there's plenty of advanced, dedicated gym goers with years of experience who have already figured all of this out. But they don't have youtube channels or aren't considered interesting to have a large following.
Came here on the recommendation of Jason Blaha and enjoy the content, BUT, being a musician there is something I most definitely must adress. You are speaking loudly standing in an almost empty room without any dampening of the walls. This causes the sound waves from your speech to bounce off the walls creating a LOT of room reverberation. This reverberation makes listening to you and concentrating on your message very hard and less intelligble than it could be. Please, put some dampening on the empty areas of all four walls, hammer som old blankets or better yet pieces of carpet onto the walls and ceiling, record your self and listen to the difference. Your voice should sound softer, closer to the microphone, clearer and not harsh and twangy which also means you wouldn´t need to speak with as much force and pressure as you do now. Give it a try,- I´m sure you´ll like it and your audience will have an easier time listening to you. Thank you for your otherwise great content.
You make some great points. I recently have switched to more deadlift volume and pull-ups/chin-ups for almost all my back work. I also do band face pulls. Ever since I started training the deadlift more seriously I have seen the most growth in my upper back ever. I might add in some chest supported rows in my program but deads and pull-ups go really well together.
I have a feeling most strong natty guys come to a similar conclusion somewhere along the line. I almost mentioned the whole cheat row fad that guys like Rubish and Cailer Woolam have popularized in recent years but decided not to. The fact that their rules don't apply to us is something that is lost on most people. Also, I think Big Ron is showing us right now that cheat rows ain't the way.
@@EnkiriElite I agree with alot of your points . Although cheat pendely Rows have defiantly made my back a lot thicker. But yes I honestly think the standard barbell row isnt a good move if you want to increase your Deadlift especially because on the last few reps when fatigued you'll really start to feel it in your lower back. Best of doing deads. Been doing Pendelys for 2 month (cheating a little) and I've NEVER once got Lower back pain. So I honestly think Rows from the floor are the best bet but deads are the king for back thickness. Also another point for cheat Pendelys is that the movement patterns are very similar to deads so if you plauto at them I think Rows from the floor can be a great move to utilise to increase it. Nice video.
Alec Enkiri this is the exact reason why I haven’t done traditional barbell rows in years! Especially as an individual gets older, efficiency of training becomes crucial as you get to about 30 years old because when your younger and the body hasn’t experienced any type of overuse or typical wear tear from aging then you can fuck around in the gym a little more but aside from that this was a great video and I just recently subbed because what impressed me most about you was your athletic abilities I’ve seen in prior videos!
I’ve dialed way back on them too for pretty much the same reason. Rowing 315+ for reps is super effective at hitting my lats (and even my traps), but my lower back always feels like ass afterwards. Pendlay rows are less fatiguing, but at that point, you might as well deadlift.
Only found your channel recently dude, but man I'm really impressed, I love authentic content from authentic people who aren't here for the ego! Awesome stuff brother 💪🏻🔥
Lower back stress can be avoided during middle back training by doing chest-supported rows. They don't really harm your deadlift or vertical pulls, save for maybe some forearm fatigue.
Hey Alec, you really nailed it in this video my friend. Every thing you said was so true, and the face pull is by far the most under appreciated exercise of all time in my opinion. Keep the videos and the plethora of informative content coming. Much love and respect brother.
Another excellent video! I do a variation of chest supported rows where there's very minimal core / spinal erector engagement - which helps me recover enough for all the compound movements. I feel like I'm getting enough stimulus on those regions through deadlifts (sometimes beltless) and some additional core training (weighted planks / GHD sit ups).
If only this video is made years ago... i can do 20+ pullup and 100kg (db and bw total) but i can't row 1/3 of my deadlift PR for reps. and to make it even worse, i actually add block pull where i took my quads out completely, that was when i SNAPPED my lower back and took me a year to recover. people, listen to Alec, and dont repeat my mistake. thanks again Alec, good one!
Rows are beneficial (if done heavy) not only for the lats but also the upper back and traps, you just have to incorporate them strategically on your program. But deads and chins are the diarchy of a strong and big back.
88and6 If you want to optimize for strength then for deadlifts 3-5 rep range, pull ups 6-8. For a more balanced range 6-8 on deads and 8-10 on pull ups. Both will make you strong and build muscle, just one focuses a bit more on the other and vice versa.
Theres no denying one row vs one deadlift the deadlift is going to yeild more benefits... but for me personally I just cant improve on really high volume deadlifts.... maybe I'm different or unique but I have yet to ever experience lower back fatigue from any kind of rowing ... deadlifts on the other hand give me extreme doms in the lower back ... I just saw this video and am thinking about giving it another go from the explanation given here but from previous experience I have doubts
This is a really great perspective. I am almost always pooped in my lower back by the time I get to bent over rows it is hard to do heavy weight without causing soreness in my lower back. I might just concentrate my efforts on chins instead and of course deadlifts and face pulls. I get enough low back work with deadlifts and back extensions as it is. My lower back takes at least 3 days to recover anyway.
Thanks 🙏🏼 I use to do DLifts & Rows but developed spinal stenosis. Grew well though. Now I do only rows - no growth Thanks for pointing it out. I’m going start DLifts again & pull ups again. Cheers
I tried writing my own strength block this summer. Very quickly I intuited the exact points u mentioned & dropped rowing from the program. Some of my gym buds even noticed and assured them I was still doing more than enough back volume w/ face pulls, weighted chins, deads, squat, & bench.
I agree with you. I've tried doing barbell rows on and off over years and I've found no real carryover with them to my deadlift. At one point I was rowing 315 and 225 for 20+ my deadlift was in the low 500s, and i started to do just weighted pullups in place of them and it had no negative affects on my deadlift, in fact, I had less lower back fatigue and actually felt better on my deadlift sessions overall. Lower back is one area i find to have slow recovery for me personally compared to any other area. So If im going to deadlift at all, I can't be introducing further lower back fatigue or it takes away from them.
Exactly. The costs of rows simply are not worth the benefits when there other exercises that have the exact same cost but far greater overall benefits.
I have a very proficient back, but I have been sleeping on weighted pull-ups, I would do them on occasions but now I’m really taking them seriously and putting them first on back days. Did 45 minutes of weighted pull-ups and then dumbbell pullovers as a finisher and the stimulus was very apparent. DOMS were next level the following day. Excited to see where this goes!
Good stuff. Weighted chins and the variations are my favorite. Currently doing squat variations and pull/neutral/chin-ups on Monday Wednesday and Friday on the same day. This isn't my normal program but I'm doing this to make up for all the upper body days I've been skipping to hit squats instead. Works great tbh, this is my first week on it and I'm loving it. Back thickness is really coming in. Strength is coming up. How's your journey on them?
Interesting video. From personal experience I also found doing rows and deadlifts at the same time is double dipping and taxing on the body. I personally stopped the deadlifts for the most part, but we have different goals. I'm trying to grow my puny back, not compete in powerlifting anytime soon.
1000% agree here, I'm not that experienced, 3.5years into training, from 2.5years, I ditched barbell rows and started focusing on weighted chin up and deadlift, now my strength has got up quite fast, from body weight(90kg) 10×5 to 25kg weighted 5×5 plus 8×3 body weight(bw unchanged), and 140kg to 215kg 1rm respectively. As for general upper back development, I now only do relatively heavy reverse pec deck, 95kg 7×5 twice a week. I havent had any problems with my back thickness nor width, and it will probably stay this way through out my further training journey.
Man that last point hit home for me personally, because that’s exactly what I started feeling after doing barbell role for two weeks. (And I only been doing them once a week at that) even though I do like the exercise I can definitely start feeling the over use of my lower back and I thought about taking it out of my routine because I definitely wasn’t going to take out my deadlifts. The seated rows I don’t feel it as much so I think I’m just stick to them for my Horizontal pulls.
To simplify chin ups face pulls and dead lifts is more then enough for back size and maybe sprinkle in some cable rows I do agree with you on the cable row being underrated I feel my back 100 times more on that then the traditional barbell row every on praises plus cable rows are good on recovery days
Agreed man. I’ve noticed more deadlift volume has worked better than heavy barbell rows for overall strength. As far as mass goes unilateral cable rows, pull-ups and more deadlift volume has worked best.
Exactly, most people would be best served just finding the most deadlift volume they can recover from and doing that for a good long while and just forgetting most everything else exists during that time. Sounds like you're ahead of the curve bro.
It is true there is a bit of echo but not to worry you can barely notice it and besides you have some of the best content on fitness, so keep on doing what you do man.
About two months ago I started adding barbell rows to my routine. A few weeks later I took what was not an insane weight on my back and instantly felt a painful twinge in my low back before even starting to squat. I took out the rows and have only had minor (less than a day of soreness) tweaks since. It’s a shame since barbell rows feel great to do - one of the more “powerful” movements (I’m using power figuratively)
i have done about 7 years of heavy pullups and chinups also ring muscle ups in all rep ranges. Its very easy to plateau with them especially when arms, forearms and scapula strength are the limiting factors. Heavy pendlay row has brought me crazy lat thickness and width progression.
@@marusdod3685 you probably aren't training chins frequently enough. My one rap max on pullups not chins is 120lbs added weight at 180 lbs bw. I am 17 and have only been doing weighted pullups for about 5 months off and on but in the past 2 months or so I was able to push my max from 80lbs for 2 to my current best.
@@Isaiah_McIntosh That's impressive. I'm 17 as well tho I only weigh 165. My chin up weight has actually decreased past few weeks idk why. I used to do 20kg for 3, now I can only do 15kg for the same reps. You're probably right about the frequency thing. I only do them 3x5 once a week. Also what rep schemes did you use?
@@marusdod3685 in the months where I wasn't trying to progress my one rep max aggressively I was doing 4 x 8's with a bit over 50% of my one rep max but when I really started chasing progress I would do 3x 3 with about 65-70% of my one rep max with explosive pulls between each set followed by 3-5 sets of 1 with my 2 rep max taking between one and two minutes rest between each rep. Often on the third rep of the 3x1 I was able to increase the weight by 3-5 pounds then linear periodization to follow. I train weighted pulls 3 times a week with some bodyweight work or plyometric work at least twice a week. To be honest though I have hit a plateau at 120 but I think either training heavy curls or getting lighter should help because I definitely have some waste of time weight at 180. The advice I would give is try to overload to a decent volume base first then attack weight without being scared to make micro-increases like 3-5 pounds.
@@marusdod3685 also it makes no sense at higher bodyweight. Pullups and chins will always be dependent on your relative strength. Relative strength is highest at lower bodyweight stages. Squat, deadlift and especially bench are highly linked to bodyweight. Can tell from my own experience. So at some point it will get frustrating because pullup and the other lifts will work against each other. So it just works for people that are rather lightweight.
4.3k subs right now. Also,the chins helps decompressing the spine. I guess after this video i'll replace pendlay rows i'm doing for some weighted chins. I'm doing upper-lower 4xweek using this excercises : Press-row-dips Squat-sghp-back extention What you think?
Not a bad setup. I think you'll get better results on the lower body days by swapping the rows for chins like you said. That's a lot of cumulative lower back fatigue otherwise.
I do rows mostly for my upper back and to work on my body positioning during the deadlift. I'm aware that it does impact the erector muscles, that's why I do rows only once on a "kinda back day", so I have a week to recover them while I work on my squats and bench press. But I guess it really depends on your goals, if you are looking for general power rows might not be for you, but for powerlifting only I see his benefits...
No one seems to compliment Alec on how good a speaker he is. Every video, it seems like he's reading from a teleprompter and his sentences are laconic and to the point, never saying a word that doesn't need to be said. Efferding and Alec and Cavaliere are just naturals in front of a camera and never seem to deviate from what has to be said. Also, great video as always! I row a lot to offset the negative effects of presses on my shoulders and need to row and do a lot of band work to alleviate a condition I have in my left shoulder called 'distal clavicular osteolysis'. But rows not carrying over to any other movement?..that's true.
Hey man, I really appreciate that. I've gotten a couple comments lately telling me I'm too robotic in front of the camera so it's nice to hear from someone with the opposite perspective as well. Also, face pulls! If you're rowing for shoulder health face pulls are the far superior option. Like I said in the video, I do a hell of a lot of those myself.
I like the content, but every-time I watch one of his vids it comes off as a bit over zealous. Seems forced at times. Just constructive criticism. You can be likable and get the point across without sounding like you're forcing yourself to sound peppy and energetic.
bruh, i just cut out barbell rows since I tweaked my lumbar at a mock meet and have gone with weighted chinups for 5-6 reps because I wanted to not tax my recovery for my back and it has worked out great. coming back to dl faster than expected and squats have hit a 5rm pr. I have done rows for years to help benching, but chinups are more fun and not as dangerous if I get lazy on my brace or if fatigue saps my form like on heavy rows or high reps.
do you think there's still any merit to horizontal pulling? As I split my movement patterns into: horizontal pull (e.g. bodyweight rows, barbell rows, face pulls) horizontal push (e.g. bench, pressups) vertical pull (e.g. pull-ups, lat pulldown) vertical push (e.g. overhead press, handstand pressup) squat (e.g. barbell back squats, lunges) hip hinge (e.g. deadlift, hip thrusts)
Great point. I was doing rows and I would always get lower back pain. So I would never go 100% percent on my deadlifts. I'll try replacing rows. Thanks for the advice !
What's your opinion on rows off the floor with a full reset between reps? I've found those not to be nearly as stressful on the lower back than the traditional version.
I do 3 heavy sets of 7 at the end of my workout. It doesnt effect my recovery, it does help build muscle in my back and has helped my bench and deadlift. But its different for everyone.
I will continue to do rows because I feel it's targeting the back in a different way than pull-ups and deadlift do. But I will remain sure that they are staying in 3rd place on my back workout. I do them not heavy with control and time under tension focus so I don't scrap my lower back. Congrats for your well developed back. Thanks for your great content and analysis.
I stopped doing any form of traditional rowing 1 year ago to prevent back injuries as I am getting older. Cable row and chin up + some straight arm pull down. I am happy to see I am not an alien. I also stopped traditional bench press with barbell and dumbbell for my shoudlers at the same time. Pec deck and pin press only.
I screw the barbell rows because they hindered my pulling strength because of lower back fatigue. I switched to trx row with backpack on chest and it feels great. I can row much more this way and don't have any lower back issues.
I do rows as a secondary higher rep addition to my main exercise weighted pull ups. Doing a step load type program. 3x3 adding a set each week leading up to an increase in reps. Eventually leading to 4x3 and 4x4 etc leading up to 5x5 then dropping down and adding weight and starting at 3x3 again. I do body weight rows using my dip bar. Basically horizontal pull ups in the higher rep range. Seems to be doing okay. I improve from week to week.
Dumbbell rows, meadows rows and one arm landmine rows with the other hand supporting on the leg or a bench all deload the lower back pretty much entirely. I think the range of motion for the lats is actually even greater for these movements than pullups. The lats are not maximally stretched with arms straight overhead, but unilaterally at a diagonal.
Yeah pretty much all the points you mentioned is why I’m considering swapping out rows for more chinup volume. But rows are pretty fun to do imo 😭 BUT my deadlift does need more work, and taking rows out might do me some good
i dont know anything in anatomy, but i thought rows work mid trapezius ? are mid trapezius the same thing as spinal erectors ? do deadlift work the mid traps ?
The spinal erectors run from the sacrum to the base of the skull on both the left and right side of the spine. They are a grouping of muscles that run the entire length of the back. The mid traps are responsible for retracting the scapula which should technically occur during a row but in practice generally does not. Again, the face pull is a better choice here. Deadlifts work every single muscle in your back, but they don't hit the upper back muscles in as targeted of a fashion, hence why I recommend face pulls.
Deadlifts grow the mid-traps and rhomboids through static contraction. I’ve always found that rows gave me much more hypertrophy than any rack pull / deadlift variation. I think people really overrate the hypertrophical benefits of an exercise that demands static contraction of the targeted muscle.
I’ve always avoided doing rows because it’s always felt unnatural to me, and I feel I’m doing them wrong and never get any lat soreness. So as a result I’ve neglected them in my training and can see my back is my weakest point. Thanks god i found this video. Makes perfect sense, just got to find a training style you enjoy, I’ve always loved pull ups and they feel natural and give me a sick back pump. Weighted pull ups for the win!!
Alec, I think that the argument for horizontal pulls for thickness is because they hit the traps more the vertical pulls hence greater thickness in the middle back. Am I worng?
These are some valid points, but I still do rows, not for my lats (since those are taken care of by Chinups) but for my upper back, which is the glaring weakpoint of basically every gymgoer, including myself. Face pulls also target these muscles, but I prefer doing those as an accessory after rows, because I feel like when I do heavy low rep work on pressing movements, I should probably also be doing some heavier upper back work to balance it out. Plus I don't feel like rows really affect my lower back much since I do them at a slightly more upright angle (like overhand Yates rows) and the weights I use are half of my deadlift max at most.
I do agree that Pendlay rows aren't necessary for hypertrophy, as there are simply more efficient or just as efficient alternatives. However, if you already deadlift heavy, what ever weight that you use when applying progressive overload on pendlay rows should be nothing on the lower back, assuming that you are doing them at a 90 degree angle, while staying strict for every rep. They feel pretty damn good on the back over all, when doing them within that framework. Of course, that can be said about machine/cable rows too. My point is that it's not THAT relatively inefficient as a hypertrophy exercise, so it's really a matter of preference. Now as for Yates Rows or cheat rows, which most people do with a barbell, THAT'S a different story...
Hey Alec For some reason if you had to pick a barbell row I always assumed maybe seal rows would be the most bang for your buck. Spares the lower back and you can get a real good contraction....haven't done them in awhile do you think this would be a way more productive exercise than any standings barbell excercise?! Love this channel bro
I came to this same conclusion a couple of years ago. I had always loved bent over rows but as I got older my lower back just wasn't recovering. I'm now swapping out conventional deadlifts with trap bar deadlifts every other training block for similar reasons.
ditched rowa for two weeks and then did heavy singles on deads and no lower back pain. retirned rows back and started to feel pain again but my upper back hot thicker with the rows. question is do you think heavy zercher carriers will give you the same mscles gains as rows do for upper back
I do deadlifts on one day and upward very strict pendlay rows on the other. For mid traps. And on day 3, 2 types of dumbbell Rows 3min amrep on 70% (strongman). I do both once a week. Works great for me. I feel that cheating rows only fatigues your nervous system with almost no benefits.
the only time i ever benefited from rows is when i ran my row program.. based around doing heavier rows.. imo rows are only good for rowing, if you truly enjoy the movement.
what do you think of pendlay rows without the negative or seal rows. those 2 don't really affect my spinal erectors much. The horizontal row also hits the lower traps and rhomboids more. But the chin ups are definitely king of back workout
I think Pendlay rows have their place, I just don't see rowing as primary movement in general. The seal row is certainly a good secondary variation though, and is one I program for myself as well as clients.
Great video as always Alec. Correct if I'm wrong but, does this mean if you were short on time and you could only do one back exercise the bent over row would be best because it works both the lats and the erectors to some degree? Obviously I know doing chins and deadlift is best thought
I would just deadlift personally lol. I hear what you're saying, but there still wouldn't be a good reason to do rows in that case, imo. If i was short on time I would just do whatever primary exercise I had been doing for that session (if it was rows then I would row, but you already know it wouldn't be in my case lol) so that I could ensure progressive overload, and then I would just skip the assistance work to save time. Throwing in a random exercise in a single instance because you're short on time is not going to be productive. You always be better off following the course you're already on as closely as possible.
Thoughts on importance of horizontal/vertical pulling and pressing balance for shoulder health? I'm not big on rows or bench personally but have recently incorporated pendlay rows mostly for this reason
Benching is potentially going to cause more of that internally rotated posture than overhead pressing will because of the pec involvement, so bench requires more maintenance work to keep things balanced. For overall shoulder health I don't think anything other than face pulls is required. I don't believe vertical pulling really contributes to shoulder health, for instance, nor do I believe heavy bent over rowing type movements do. There isn't enough focus on the upper back and rear delts with those exercises.
Face pulls mainly work my rear delts. I do face pulls & shrugs every time I do back. Different strokes for different folks my friend. Good video bro. Makes me think about all my other workouts. 💪
I agree on barbell row being over rated for lats and chinups being better, but for different reasons. Most do wider than shoulders grip barbell rows for lats, with elbows pointing out 45 degrees. Only problem that your lat origin isn't 45 degrees out, but your upper traps will certainly get a workout, especially if you start every rep with a scapular retraction and your back angles slightly diagonally ... in addition to the spinal erectors. A shoulder width grip barbell row is a better lat exercise, but you're right, a chin up lines up the arm trajectory with the lat origin, and is better suited for lats given the better ROM. In defense of any barbell row and back fatigue. First off, I find deadlifts much more fatiging, and they have a reputation for not giving back as much as what they take, even among powerlifters. As far as traditional programming I suspect barbell rows were meant as a deadlift stand-in at opposite extremes of the week so as to increase posterior chain stimulation from 1x a week to 2, for those whose deadlifting 2xs a week would be too much to recuperate from, so this is a programming issue and relates to respecting the SRA curve, which is why people complain about excessive fatigue or not recuperating enough because they don't allow for SRA in their programming. I'll also say, there's a way to mitigate fatigue while rowing, and it's so all in the posture. There's a point where the bar lands just above the knees, so that you're above parallel to the floor and this allows for holding that position for sustained periods without excessive fatigue. But back to wide rowing for lats. I think its stupid given a wide grip doesnt work the lats in its line of pull, and given there are better exercises with bettter ROMs. As far as doing wide rows for traps, thatll work if you retract the scapula, but the row aspect is redundant considering the traps aren't tied to the arms, which suggests a bent over shrug would be better suited for trap work.
When I made my comment I didn't know you did FP and cable rows. Good point on the cable row saving the lower back. Just got a cable pulley and its good to do fp and easier rows to get extra volume. I think landmine rows are easy on the lower back though. I just prop my hand on a bench to help with the lower back.
@@arnbassbaritone A few other people made a comment along the same lines as yours which is why I decided to address the issue. I don't mind inverted rows, but they suffer from the same shortcomings as pushups.
@@EnkiriElite True about IR but I usually try to do them weight, or with fat grips, or with 1 arm. I just mix them in here and there. Or I do them on off days to build up my shoulder health.
Revisiting this after watching Alpha Destiny´s newest video. Alec it amazes me how youre always ahead of everyone by YEARS
Haha, I appreciate you remembering this video!
P.s. my intro music choice here was terrible!
Natural Hypertrophy made a vid talking about why novices shouldn’t do barbell rows too
What about inverted rows? should i do them and do they help to build a good back mixed with pull-ups? i have a weight belt so progressive overload wouldnt be a problem i guess but yeah.
@@lucashenriques4242 Inverted rows can be progressively overloaded by decreasing the incline, elevating your feet and there are harder variations like the front lever row (absolutely brutal actually). Weight belt isnt that necessary for that IMO. For something like the dip, yeah it is.
Presumably, there's plenty of advanced, dedicated gym goers with years of experience who have already figured all of this out. But they don't have youtube channels or aren't considered interesting to have a large following.
Came here on the recommendation of Jason Blaha and enjoy the content, BUT, being a musician there is something I most definitely must adress.
You are speaking loudly standing in an almost empty room without any dampening of the walls.
This causes the sound waves from your speech to bounce off the walls creating a LOT of room reverberation.
This reverberation makes listening to you and concentrating on your message very hard and less intelligble than it could be.
Please, put some dampening on the empty areas of all four walls, hammer som old blankets or better yet pieces of carpet onto the walls and ceiling,
record your self and listen to the difference.
Your voice should sound softer, closer to the microphone, clearer and not harsh and twangy which also means you wouldn´t need to speak with as much force and pressure as you do now.
Give it a try,- I´m sure you´ll like it and your audience will have an easier time listening to you.
Thank you for your otherwise great content.
Yeah, I'll probably just get a microphone eventually.
Could work too :)
Nice science behind it ..thank you man!
I swear I’ve seen this exact comment somewhere else
I don't think most of the people that watch him give a flying fuck bro.
You make some great points. I recently have switched to more deadlift volume and pull-ups/chin-ups for almost all my back work. I also do band face pulls. Ever since I started training the deadlift more seriously I have seen the most growth in my upper back ever. I might add in some chest supported rows in my program but deads and pull-ups go really well together.
I also don't do traditional barbell rows, mainly for the fatigue reasons you mentioned.
I have a feeling most strong natty guys come to a similar conclusion somewhere along the line. I almost mentioned the whole cheat row fad that guys like Rubish and Cailer Woolam have popularized in recent years but decided not to. The fact that their rules don't apply to us is something that is lost on most people. Also, I think Big Ron is showing us right now that cheat rows ain't the way.
@@EnkiriElite I agree with alot of your points . Although cheat pendely Rows have defiantly made my back a lot thicker. But yes I honestly think the standard barbell row isnt a good move if you want to increase your Deadlift especially because on the last few reps when fatigued you'll really start to feel it in your lower back. Best of doing deads.
Been doing Pendelys for 2 month (cheating a little) and I've NEVER once got Lower back pain. So I honestly think Rows from the floor are the best bet but deads are the king for back thickness.
Also another point for cheat Pendelys is that the movement patterns are very similar to deads so if you plauto at them I think Rows from the floor can be a great move to utilise to increase it.
Nice video.
Alec Enkiri this is the exact reason why I haven’t done traditional barbell rows in years! Especially as an individual gets older, efficiency of training becomes crucial as you get to about 30 years old because when your younger and the body hasn’t experienced any type of overuse or typical wear tear from aging then you can fuck around in the gym a little more but aside from that this was a great video and I just recently subbed because what impressed me most about you was your athletic abilities I’ve seen in prior videos!
I’ve dialed way back on them too for pretty much the same reason. Rowing 315+ for reps is super effective at hitting my lats (and even my traps), but my lower back always feels like ass afterwards. Pendlay rows are less fatiguing, but at that point, you might as well deadlift.
I never liked them. Always felt uncomfortable to me. Rather do deadlifts pull ups and chest supported t bar rows.
Next one going to be “why i dont train chest”
Good idea actually.
hater
Bitch.
"why the bench press doesn't give you a big chest"
@@hhfbko v shred mention
Only found your channel recently dude, but man I'm really impressed, I love authentic content from authentic people who aren't here for the ego! Awesome stuff brother 💪🏻🔥
It’s the current year bro, you’re supposed to be doing above the knee rack pulls and cheat rows. Get with the program.
Unfortunately, I thought it was still not the current year.
Tbh, rack pulls and cheat rows are more of a 2016 2017 thing. Weighted pull-ups seem to be getting more popular again.
I am from 2 years in the future, you need to stop a dude from eating a bat somewhere in China. All of humanity is at stake...
@@Sensei_Gaz I’m from the past. Bats are delicious, so that’s a hard no.
If you were really from the future you'd know that there was never a bat
Look at that barn door back!!
Lower back stress can be avoided during middle back training by doing chest-supported rows.
They don't really harm your deadlift or vertical pulls, save for maybe some forearm fatigue.
I like the chest supported t-bar for that stretch, but I use it for bench carry over
I do supported rows as well. Being an old guy, I protect the lower back as much as possible.
i think he mainly talking about athletic usability and pure strength and not really bodybuilding
This is exactly what I do, Barbell rows aint worth it for me.
I like weighted Ring Row
3 x 15 reps really make my back and traps blow up
Hey Alec, you really nailed it in this video my friend. Every thing you said was so true, and the face pull is by far the most under appreciated exercise of all time in my opinion. Keep the videos and the plethora of informative content coming. Much love and respect brother.
Thanks a lot man! Glad you enjoyed the video.
Another excellent video!
I do a variation of chest supported rows where there's very minimal core / spinal erector engagement - which helps me recover enough for all the compound movements.
I feel like I'm getting enough stimulus on those regions through deadlifts (sometimes beltless) and some additional core training (weighted planks / GHD sit ups).
If only this video is made years ago... i can do 20+ pullup and 100kg (db and bw total) but i can't row 1/3 of my deadlift PR for reps. and to make it even worse, i actually add block pull where i took my quads out completely, that was when i SNAPPED my lower back and took me a year to recover. people, listen to Alec, and dont repeat my mistake. thanks again Alec, good one!
Ring Rows are great. Ring Arc Row is very underrated unknown exercise.
Rows are beneficial (if done heavy) not only for the lats but also the upper back and traps, you just have to incorporate them strategically on your program. But deads and chins are the diarchy of a strong and big back.
Do you have a recommended rep range?
88and6 If you want to optimize for strength then for deadlifts 3-5 rep range, pull ups 6-8. For a more balanced range 6-8 on deads and 8-10 on pull ups. Both will make you strong and build muscle, just one focuses a bit more on the other and vice versa.
Deadlift is a horrible exercise for back hyperthrophy. Another sheep brainwashed by fitness propaganda
Row builds thickness, straight pull up builds width and straight arm pull down builds both
Theres no denying one row vs one deadlift the deadlift is going to yeild more benefits... but for me personally I just cant improve on really high volume deadlifts.... maybe I'm different or unique but I have yet to ever experience lower back fatigue from any kind of rowing ... deadlifts on the other hand give me extreme doms in the lower back ... I just saw this video and am thinking about giving it another go from the explanation given here but from previous experience I have doubts
My workout is traditional pull-ups and heavy weight rows and it increased my pull-ups from 10 to 35
This is a really great perspective. I am almost always pooped in my lower back by the time I get to bent over rows it is hard to do heavy weight without causing soreness in my lower back. I might just concentrate my efforts on chins instead and of course deadlifts and face pulls. I get enough low back work with deadlifts and back extensions as it is. My lower back takes at least 3 days to recover anyway.
Thanks 🙏🏼 I use to do DLifts & Rows but developed spinal stenosis. Grew well though.
Now I do only rows - no growth
Thanks for pointing it out. I’m going start DLifts again & pull ups again. Cheers
I tried writing my own strength block this summer. Very quickly I intuited the exact points u mentioned & dropped rowing from the program. Some of my gym buds even noticed and assured them I was still doing more than enough back volume w/ face pulls, weighted chins, deads, squat, & bench.
I agree with you. I've tried doing barbell rows on and off over years and I've found no real carryover with them to my deadlift. At one point I was rowing 315 and 225 for 20+ my deadlift was in the low 500s, and i started to do just weighted pullups in place of them and it had no negative affects on my deadlift, in fact, I had less lower back fatigue and actually felt better on my deadlift sessions overall. Lower back is one area i find to have slow recovery for me personally compared to any other area. So If im going to deadlift at all, I can't be introducing further lower back fatigue or it takes away from them.
Exactly. The costs of rows simply are not worth the benefits when there other exercises that have the exact same cost but far greater overall benefits.
I have a very proficient back, but I have been sleeping on weighted pull-ups, I would do them on occasions but now I’m really taking them seriously and putting them first on back days. Did 45 minutes of weighted pull-ups and then dumbbell pullovers as a finisher and the stimulus was very apparent. DOMS were next level the following day. Excited to see where this goes!
Good stuff. Weighted chins and the variations are my favorite. Currently doing squat variations and pull/neutral/chin-ups on Monday Wednesday and Friday on the same day. This isn't my normal program but I'm doing this to make up for all the upper body days I've been skipping to hit squats instead. Works great tbh, this is my first week on it and I'm loving it. Back thickness is really coming in. Strength is coming up. How's your journey on them?
This is so spot on!
Interesting video. From personal experience I also found doing rows and deadlifts at the same time is double dipping and taxing on the body. I personally stopped the deadlifts for the most part, but we have different goals. I'm trying to grow my puny back, not compete in powerlifting anytime soon.
Love this video!
1000% agree here, I'm not that experienced, 3.5years into training, from 2.5years, I ditched barbell rows and started focusing on weighted chin up and deadlift, now my strength has got up quite fast, from body weight(90kg) 10×5 to 25kg weighted 5×5 plus 8×3 body weight(bw unchanged), and 140kg to 215kg 1rm respectively. As for general upper back development, I now only do relatively heavy reverse pec deck, 95kg 7×5 twice a week. I havent had any problems with my back thickness nor width, and it will probably stay this way through out my further training journey.
Face pulls and holding it is awesome! :) same with rows I love them great video
Nice bro!! Not alot of channels like this one
Man that last point hit home for me personally, because that’s exactly what I started feeling after doing barbell role for two weeks. (And I only been doing them once a week at that) even though I do like the exercise I can definitely start feeling the over use of my lower back and I thought about taking it out of my routine because I definitely wasn’t going to take out my deadlifts. The seated rows I don’t feel it as much so I think I’m just stick to them for my Horizontal pulls.
Great info man, appreciate you!
thanks man, glad you enjoyed!
To simplify chin ups face pulls and dead lifts is more then enough for back size and maybe sprinkle in some cable rows I do agree with you on the cable row being underrated I feel my back 100 times more on that then the traditional barbell row every on praises plus cable rows are good on recovery days
Agreed man. I’ve noticed more deadlift volume has worked better than heavy barbell rows for overall strength. As far as mass goes unilateral cable rows, pull-ups and more deadlift volume has worked best.
Exactly, most people would be best served just finding the most deadlift volume they can recover from and doing that for a good long while and just forgetting most everything else exists during that time. Sounds like you're ahead of the curve bro.
Those pulls at the end were clean af
Thanks man!
@@EnkiriElite head should be aligned with your torso through the movement
It is true there is a bit of echo but not to worry you can barely notice it and besides you have some of the best content on fitness, so keep on doing what you do man.
Great content my man
An easy solution would be to do some one arm dumbbell rows, or barbell chest supported rows with an incline bench.
I used to say the same. But one day I tried rows after years and the gains in the midback were incredible.
were you progressively overloading on your pull ups/chin ups?
yeah right
About two months ago I started adding barbell rows to my routine. A few weeks later I took what was not an insane weight on my back and instantly felt a painful twinge in my low back before even starting to squat. I took out the rows and have only had minor (less than a day of soreness) tweaks since.
It’s a shame since barbell rows feel great to do - one of the more “powerful” movements (I’m using power figuratively)
i have done about 7 years of heavy pullups and chinups also ring muscle ups in all rep ranges. Its very easy to plateau with them especially when arms, forearms and scapula strength are the limiting factors. Heavy pendlay row has brought me crazy lat thickness and width progression.
Same. I can barely do 20+ kgs on weighted chin-ups but I can do 2 plates on the barbell rows for reps. Chins are really tough to increase :(
@@marusdod3685 you probably aren't training chins frequently enough. My one rap max on pullups not chins is 120lbs added weight at 180 lbs bw. I am 17 and have only been doing weighted pullups for about 5 months off and on but in the past 2 months or so I was able to push my max from 80lbs for 2 to my current best.
@@Isaiah_McIntosh That's impressive. I'm 17 as well tho I only weigh 165.
My chin up weight has actually decreased past few weeks idk why. I used to do 20kg for 3, now I can only do 15kg for the same reps. You're probably right about the frequency thing. I only do them 3x5 once a week. Also what rep schemes did you use?
@@marusdod3685 in the months where I wasn't trying to progress my one rep max aggressively I was doing 4 x 8's with a bit over 50% of my one rep max but when I really started chasing progress I would do 3x 3 with about 65-70% of my one rep max with explosive pulls between each set followed by 3-5 sets of 1 with my 2 rep max taking between one and two minutes rest between each rep. Often on the third rep of the 3x1 I was able to increase the weight by 3-5 pounds then linear periodization to follow. I train weighted pulls 3 times a week with some bodyweight work or plyometric work at least twice a week. To be honest though I have hit a plateau at 120 but I think either training heavy curls or getting lighter should help because I definitely have some waste of time weight at 180. The advice I would give is try to overload to a decent volume base first then attack weight without being scared to make micro-increases like 3-5 pounds.
@@marusdod3685 also it makes no sense at higher bodyweight. Pullups and chins will always be dependent on your relative strength. Relative strength is highest at lower bodyweight stages. Squat, deadlift and especially bench are highly linked to bodyweight. Can tell from my own experience. So at some point it will get frustrating because pullup and the other lifts will work against each other. So it just works for people that are rather lightweight.
4.3k subs right now.
Also,the chins helps decompressing the spine.
I guess after this video i'll replace pendlay rows i'm doing for some weighted chins.
I'm doing upper-lower 4xweek using this excercises :
Press-row-dips
Squat-sghp-back extention
What you think?
Not a bad setup. I think you'll get better results on the lower body days by swapping the rows for chins like you said. That's a lot of cumulative lower back fatigue otherwise.
@@EnkiriElite thanks for the fast answer bro,next week i'll be implementing chins and see how it goes
your speaking is very good. i think visual aids would be useful for a visual medium though.
I got a thick AND wide back, exclusively from rows. Very high volume, not too heavy either.
I love cable rows for the same reasons.
Thank you for this
I only do t bar rows off blocks, that way it doesnt stress my lower back so much, I only do 85%- 90% percent for 3 sets so i can get that overload
I do rows mostly for my upper back and to work on my body positioning during the deadlift. I'm aware that it does impact the erector muscles, that's why I do rows only once on a "kinda back day", so I have a week to recover them while I work on my squats and bench press. But I guess it really depends on your goals, if you are looking for general power rows might not be for you, but for powerlifting only I see his benefits...
No one seems to compliment Alec on how good a speaker he is.
Every video, it seems like he's reading from a teleprompter and his sentences are laconic and to the point, never saying a word that doesn't need to be said. Efferding and Alec and Cavaliere are just naturals in front of a camera and never seem to deviate from what has to be said.
Also, great video as always!
I row a lot to offset the negative effects of presses on my shoulders and need to row and do a lot of band work to alleviate a condition I have in my left shoulder called 'distal clavicular osteolysis'. But rows not carrying over to any other movement?..that's true.
Hey man, I really appreciate that. I've gotten a couple comments lately telling me I'm too robotic in front of the camera so it's nice to hear from someone with the opposite perspective as well.
Also, face pulls! If you're rowing for shoulder health face pulls are the far superior option. Like I said in the video, I do a hell of a lot of those myself.
He is reading off something behind his camera
I like the content, but every-time I watch one of his vids it comes off as a bit over zealous. Seems forced at times. Just constructive criticism. You can be likable and get the point across without sounding like you're forcing yourself to sound peppy and energetic.
Common Sense this
bruh, i just cut out barbell rows since I tweaked my lumbar at a mock meet and have gone with weighted chinups for 5-6 reps because I wanted to not tax my recovery for my back and it has worked out great. coming back to dl faster than expected and squats have hit a 5rm pr.
I have done rows for years to help benching, but chinups are more fun and not as dangerous if I get lazy on my brace or if fatigue saps my form like on heavy rows or high reps.
You got a Christmas tree back, awesome .
Inspiring !
do you think there's still any merit to horizontal pulling? As I split my movement patterns into:
horizontal pull (e.g. bodyweight rows, barbell rows, face pulls)
horizontal push (e.g. bench, pressups)
vertical pull (e.g. pull-ups, lat pulldown)
vertical push (e.g. overhead press, handstand pressup)
squat (e.g. barbell back squats, lunges)
hip hinge (e.g. deadlift, hip thrusts)
Great point. I was doing rows and I would always get lower back pain. So I would never go 100% percent on my deadlifts.
I'll try replacing rows.
Thanks for the advice !
I liked doing pendlay rows but this makes a lot of sense. Not to say they don’t work, but you’re better off just getting additional deadlift volume
I do believe this point went over many a commenter's head, so thank you for pointing it out.
What's your opinion on rows off the floor with a full reset between reps? I've found those not to be nearly as stressful on the lower back than the traditional version.
I think seated cable rows are great, barbell rows are not worth the fatigue though imo especially if you like to squat and deadlift frequently.
Hey Alec, I'm new to training but I have tried chin ups, and when I do I get a sharp stabbing pain in my sternum. What is the issue?
I also like doing weighted chin ups and deadlifts. It's a pretty good combination.
"If one link in the chain is severely weaker than the rest then the whole unit is comprised"
I do 3 heavy sets of 7 at the end of my workout. It doesnt effect my recovery, it does help build muscle in my back and has helped my bench and deadlift. But its different for everyone.
I started prioritizing cable back rows over pullups because of my upper cross syndrome
I will continue to do rows because I feel it's targeting the back in a different way than pull-ups and deadlift do. But I will remain sure that they are staying in 3rd place on my back workout. I do them not heavy with control and time under tension focus so I don't scrap my lower back.
Congrats for your well developed back. Thanks for your great content and analysis.
I love dummbell rows. They make my shoulders and neck feel good.
What about lat pull downs? I am on board with dropping rows man and picking up more pull ups.
Face pulls are one of the most physiological beneficial exercises for a man to do maybe only surpassed by straight arm scapular training and pull ups.
If there's one thing we long limb folks are good at. It's pulling!
I stopped doing any form of traditional rowing 1 year ago to prevent back injuries as I am getting older. Cable row and chin up + some straight arm pull down. I am happy to see I am not an alien. I also stopped traditional bench press with barbell and dumbbell for my shoudlers at the same time. Pec deck and pin press only.
@@popcornto6032 I think there are exercise that are just not for everyone. Doing cable press and pin press now and doing just fine.
I screw the barbell rows because they hindered my pulling strength because of lower back fatigue. I switched to trx row with backpack on chest and it feels great. I can row much more this way and don't have any lower back issues.
I do rows as a secondary higher rep addition to my main exercise weighted pull ups. Doing a step load type program. 3x3 adding a set each week leading up to an increase in reps. Eventually leading to 4x3 and 4x4 etc leading up to 5x5 then dropping down and adding weight and starting at 3x3 again. I do body weight rows using my dip bar. Basically horizontal pull ups in the higher rep range. Seems to be doing okay. I improve from week to week.
Similar to ring rows not the barbell rows or on a row machine.
Dumbbell rows, meadows rows and one arm landmine rows with the other hand supporting on the leg or a bench all deload the lower back pretty much entirely. I think the range of motion for the lats is actually even greater for these movements than pullups. The lats are not maximally stretched with arms straight overhead, but unilaterally at a diagonal.
Maybe these aren't ideal for stimulus in terms of total load? I don't really see why not since it's just the unilateral nature limiting the load.
Yeah pretty much all the points you mentioned is why I’m considering swapping out rows for more chinup volume. But rows are pretty fun to do imo 😭 BUT my deadlift does need more work, and taking rows out might do me some good
I think it will help the deadlift for sure. Only way to know is to give a try!
a little late here, but once i started doing rows i noticed my squat suffered, fatigued lower back.
I found Rubish rows to be a great supplemental exercise to the deadlift
i dont know anything in anatomy, but i thought rows work mid trapezius ? are mid trapezius the same thing as spinal erectors ? do deadlift work the mid traps ?
No, they're not the same. Mid traps retract the scapula and they're part of the upper back. Spinal erectors is the lower back.
The spinal erectors run from the sacrum to the base of the skull on both the left and right side of the spine. They are a grouping of muscles that run the entire length of the back. The mid traps are responsible for retracting the scapula which should technically occur during a row but in practice generally does not. Again, the face pull is a better choice here. Deadlifts work every single muscle in your back, but they don't hit the upper back muscles in as targeted of a fashion, hence why I recommend face pulls.
Deadlifts grow the mid-traps and rhomboids through static contraction. I’ve always found that rows gave me much more hypertrophy than any rack pull / deadlift variation. I think people really overrate the hypertrophical benefits of an exercise that demands static contraction of the targeted muscle.
I’ve always avoided doing rows because it’s always felt unnatural to me, and I feel I’m doing them wrong and never get any lat soreness. So as a result I’ve neglected them in my training and can see my back is my weakest point. Thanks god i found this video. Makes perfect sense, just got to find a training style you enjoy, I’ve always loved pull ups and they feel natural and give me a sick back pump. Weighted pull ups for the win!!
Alec, I think that the argument for horizontal pulls for thickness is because they hit the traps more the vertical pulls hence greater thickness in the middle back. Am I worng?
These are some valid points, but I still do rows, not for my lats (since those are taken care of by Chinups) but for my upper back, which is the glaring weakpoint of basically every gymgoer, including myself.
Face pulls also target these muscles, but I prefer doing those as an accessory after rows, because I feel like when I do heavy low rep work on pressing movements, I should probably also be doing some heavier upper back work to balance it out.
Plus I don't feel like rows really affect my lower back much since I do them at a slightly more upright angle (like overhand Yates rows) and the weights I use are half of my deadlift max at most.
I’m tryna get huge medium and lower traps what should I hit
I do Underhand grip Pull down and go to Pull Over (Under Hand grip) superset .
Rows have helped me a bunch for explosive power.
I do agree that Pendlay rows aren't necessary for hypertrophy, as there are simply more efficient or just as efficient alternatives. However, if you already deadlift heavy, what ever weight that you use when applying progressive overload on pendlay rows should be nothing on the lower back, assuming that you are doing them at a 90 degree angle, while staying strict for every rep. They feel pretty damn good on the back over all, when doing them within that framework. Of course, that can be said about machine/cable rows too. My point is that it's not THAT relatively inefficient as a hypertrophy exercise, so it's really a matter of preference. Now as for Yates Rows or cheat rows, which most people do with a barbell, THAT'S a different story...
Hey Alec For some reason if you had to pick a barbell row I always assumed maybe seal rows would be the most bang for your buck. Spares the lower back and you can get a real good contraction....haven't done them in awhile do you think this would be a way more productive exercise than any standings barbell excercise?! Love this channel bro
I do like seal rows or any type of chest supported row as a supplement to your deadlift training.
Cailer Woolum specifically does cheat barbell rows for deadlifts and is one of the best in the world, not even mentioning weight class.
3 years later, man be doing rows
Row... row... row your boat!
I came to this same conclusion a couple of years ago. I had always loved bent over rows but as I got older my lower back just wasn't recovering. I'm now swapping out conventional deadlifts with trap bar deadlifts every other training block for similar reasons.
I've been dabbling with a little bit of trap bar deadlifting recently as well. Great exercise, just feels so awkward to me haha.
I switched to sumo. Way better for the seasoned veteran.
The bent over row has crazy carryover to deadlift
Alec, what about muscular balance? Don't opposing movements have to be trained?
ditched rowa for two weeks and then did heavy singles on deads and no lower back pain. retirned rows back and started to feel pain again but my upper back hot thicker with the rows. question is do you think heavy zercher carriers will give you the same mscles gains as rows do for upper back
I think theyll do more for strength, but I don't know about size
You need rows for the upper back and just do chest supported rows. Chest supported is the way to go if you do heavy deadlifts
This is why I do seal rows. I love doing rows so I simple can't stop. I find they target my lower lats more than pull ups or deads
Nothing wrong with that, man.
I do deadlifts on one day and upward very strict pendlay rows on the other. For mid traps. And on day 3, 2 types of dumbbell Rows 3min amrep on 70% (strongman).
I do both once a week.
Works great for me. I feel that cheating rows only fatigues your nervous system with almost no benefits.
the only time i ever benefited from rows is when i ran my row program.. based around doing heavier rows.. imo rows are only good for rowing, if you truly enjoy the movement.
I’m surprised you don’t have more subs
what do you think of pendlay rows without the negative or seal rows. those 2 don't really affect my spinal erectors much. The horizontal row also hits the lower traps and rhomboids more. But the chin ups are definitely king of back workout
I think Pendlay rows have their place, I just don't see rowing as primary movement in general. The seal row is certainly a good secondary variation though, and is one I program for myself as well as clients.
Great video as always Alec. Correct if I'm wrong but, does this mean if you were short on time and you could only do one back exercise the bent over row would be best because it works both the lats and the erectors to some degree? Obviously I know doing chins and deadlift is best thought
I would just deadlift personally lol. I hear what you're saying, but there still wouldn't be a good reason to do rows in that case, imo. If i was short on time I would just do whatever primary exercise I had been doing for that session (if it was rows then I would row, but you already know it wouldn't be in my case lol) so that I could ensure progressive overload, and then I would just skip the assistance work to save time. Throwing in a random exercise in a single instance because you're short on time is not going to be productive. You always be better off following the course you're already on as closely as possible.
Thoughts on importance of horizontal/vertical pulling and pressing balance for shoulder health? I'm not big on rows or bench personally but have recently incorporated pendlay rows mostly for this reason
Benching is potentially going to cause more of that internally rotated posture than overhead pressing will because of the pec involvement, so bench requires more maintenance work to keep things balanced. For overall shoulder health I don't think anything other than face pulls is required. I don't believe vertical pulling really contributes to shoulder health, for instance, nor do I believe heavy bent over rowing type movements do. There isn't enough focus on the upper back and rear delts with those exercises.
What about shrugs and heavy lateral raises?
My lats are really the only muscle group that I do isolation work on. Traps are super important in back exercises also.
That's why we face pull brother.
Face pulls mainly work my rear delts. I do face pulls & shrugs every time I do back. Different strokes for different folks my friend. Good video bro. Makes me think about all my other workouts. 💪
I agree on barbell row being over rated for lats and chinups being better, but for different reasons.
Most do wider than shoulders grip barbell rows for lats, with elbows pointing out 45 degrees. Only problem that your lat origin isn't 45 degrees out, but your upper traps will certainly get a workout, especially if you start every rep with a scapular retraction and your back angles slightly diagonally ... in addition to the spinal erectors.
A shoulder width grip barbell row is a better lat exercise, but you're right, a chin up lines up the arm trajectory with the lat origin, and is better suited for lats given the better ROM.
In defense of any barbell row and back fatigue. First off, I find deadlifts much more fatiging, and they have a reputation for not giving back as much as what they take, even among powerlifters.
As far as traditional programming I suspect barbell rows were meant as a deadlift stand-in at opposite extremes of the week so as to increase posterior chain stimulation from 1x a week to 2, for those whose deadlifting 2xs a week would be too much to recuperate from, so this is a programming issue and relates to respecting the SRA curve, which is why people complain about excessive fatigue or not recuperating enough because they don't allow for SRA in their programming.
I'll also say, there's a way to mitigate fatigue while rowing, and it's so all in the posture. There's a point where the bar lands just above the knees, so that you're above parallel to the floor and this allows for holding that position for sustained periods without excessive fatigue.
But back to wide rowing for lats. I think its stupid given a wide grip doesnt work the lats in its line of pull, and given there are better exercises with bettter ROMs. As far as doing wide rows for traps, thatll work if you retract the scapula, but the row aspect is redundant considering the traps aren't tied to the arms, which suggests a bent over shrug would be better suited for trap work.
When I made my comment I didn't know you did FP and cable rows. Good point on the cable row saving the lower back. Just got a cable pulley and its good to do fp and easier rows to get extra volume. I think landmine rows are easy on the lower back though. I just prop my hand on a bench to help with the lower back.
I like inverted rows also.
@@arnbassbaritone A few other people made a comment along the same lines as yours which is why I decided to address the issue. I don't mind inverted rows, but they suffer from the same shortcomings as pushups.
@@EnkiriElite True about IR but I usually try to do them weight, or with fat grips, or with 1 arm. I just mix them in here and there. Or I do them on off days to build up my shoulder health.
dont they work lower traps and rhomboids
This guy needs to write a program. I've been following what he says and my ohp is almost bodyweight now
How did you program it?
@@evooff idk