Just for reference, Zach is 5'9-5'10 and is still able to get this sort of spin. So he is a way better guy to try and replicate form wise for your average player. Not AB or Gannon since theyre 6'4 and 6'6. Zach is a good friend of mine who has helped me add 40-50 feet and hoping to add more with him this off season
Looking at his throw and thinking of the fundamentals I see the following. His run up is not super fast like other pros and he is definitely more of a rotational thrower vs a like a Calvin or James Conrad where they are very linear with a fast run up, slamming their leg and forcing their linear momentum into rotational force. Josh asked for paragraphs so we’re cooking here. His plant step is very long and very out, like almost 45 degrees from his throwing line. Also if you watch the slow mo at 1/4 speed (I did this a few times) you see his back swing is very back. Like he is turning his whole upper back to the target AND KEEPING IT THERE until after his plant foot hits the ground. After he has planted with his leg really angled away from the target the disc begins to move. From there his throw doesn’t look any different then dang near perfect “classical” form. I paused the slow mo in the middle of his swing and he has a perfect 90 def power pocket, great swing through the hit and great follow through. Conclusions? We saw that it wasn’t his grip that affected his spin, not the wrist, and nothing about his throw looks abnormal except for one thing I can see. His backswing and his plant step. I think his spin and speed are coming from his really high coil he is getting from being turned so far away from the target line for so long. I dont think other pros stay that turned away from the target line for as long as he does. Like I want to keep rambling about how he is basically executing what Josh and Seabass have been showing in static positions and exercises for years now. Point the butt at the target and keep yourself coiled until way after you plant. Then pushing strong into the ground and pulling into the pocket. I think it is Zach’s crazy backwards plant step and coil that is getting him such high numbers. Hopefully I don’t get torn apart in the comments lol
At 18:17 we see him rotate his shoulders almost 270 degrees, reaching far back. I think his "secret" is a long reachback, wide elbow, deep power pocket and quick rotation. Basically, he is a longer whip cracked well. This gives him a better power potential, which he is able to utilize through a strong core, back, shoulder and grip.
At lake Eureka, I watched Zach throw a 550 foot hyzer with a halo Boss. He’s a very underrated thrower and player! He has all the tools needed to be one of the best in the sport.
Not taking anything away from Zach but the same thing applies to most guys on the tour. Its just a matter of consistency and having the least deviance between good and bad shots
I remember watching the NADGT finals that he was competing in (i think it's on youtube) and he was LAUNCHING discs WAY past his competitors. It was cool to see.
You guys need a super slo-mo camera so you could see how the disc travels from the pocket to the hit. Then have a few pros with different spins throw and analyse what could be the biggest factor for more spin.
It would take some Tesla cameras - used for self driving - and AI to analyze a whole bunch of video correlated with data from tech disc to figure out the biomechanics so that the ai could predict from video footage what the results of a throw would be sans tech disc. If it can do that, then it could probably articulate what the differences are… ?
Not sure if the slo mo guys would do it, but smarter every day has a super slo mo Camera as well and has done disc golf videos on disc production. Might be a possibility.
I think he said it himself at 7:00. "I think my arm speed is going to go 70 and the disc is going to go 50." This is also the biggest variance in disc speed and spin. As Zach increases his grip strength the disc is able to match the speed of the arm. Zack is able to gradually get the disc to his correct hit point. Which I think means two things. First, If Zack was weaker in his grip strength then he wouldn't be able to hold on with enough force to match the speed of his arm to the disc. It would always early release then he would adjust his form naturally to make up for it. Second, this might mean that people could already be throwing at 70+ but their grip strength isn't able to hold on long enough to impart all the force from the arm to the disc! If that is true then we can change how we train to increase distance in disc golf. If possible would you be able to use a hand dynamometer that mimics the grip of disc golf? I think the move would be to go out with a tech disc and hand dynamometer side by side and get some data plots. Also if possible see if you can find a way to measure just arm speed not the disc speed. There is an Arm Speed Analyzer app on the apple watch.
This is pretty interesting. Conventional advice is a loser grip will get you a faster wrist and more spin. But Zach is showing us that doesn't appear to be the case. I'm going to try gripping harder and see if I notice any difference in distance / accuracy.
@@AllbirdbagI started getting much more distance when I started gripping the hell out of my discs last year. I don’t know that that is what caused it, but I never stopped doing it.
I’ve also dramatically improved from a strong pinch grip. When I grip hard, my body seems to subconsciously know it can move faster. Never been more accurate.
I made another comment on here with a similar theory. I think what’s more important than perceived grip pressure is peak grip strength. You need to be able to grip the disc into and through the hit to get 100% out of your throw. Doesn’t matter if you start loose and tighten or mash the whole way.
I am so pumped you got Zach Nash on. Been a fan of his form for a while. I think it's very reminiscent of Will Schusterick in many ways, and I bet Will has insane spin too. I think the high spin has to do with a deep, circular rotation in the reachback that would be rounding in a most throwers but is countered by the wide elbow.
Just spent some time looking at slow-mo and stepping through. I don't have answers, but what I noticed is: Check out power pocket on side view (around 18:00). His foot/ankle are turned more back than I think I have ever seen on a power thrower. In the behind view, it worked out that he threw the disc perfectly on one of the mow lines. What I noticed is his reach back is straight, he pulls through on a line inside of the mow line (but parallel), then starts to rotate torso which puts the disc on the line that it follows until release and after. I haven't compared to others, so don't know if that is unique or not. This is not "wide rail" or "out in out" like I expected to see. it is more like ___/¯¯¯¯ Finally, big thanks to Overthrow for doing vids like this. It is the coolest to see these and be able to analyze and discuss! I am going to try his super-rotated reachback in the field, as I am fit/flexible enough to do it :)
The answer is his flexibility. He can efficiently coil further than the average pro giving him a longer whip effect on the disc. Thats why when you heard him say at 14:50 in reference to the reach back position, “I try to keep my form really wide unless I’m crushing it” . To me that says he’s trying to reach out instead of back but his coil is very deep so it results in being straight back instead of out. The ultimate slingshot.
Cool meeting you at Worlds, Josh. That slow-mo goodness at the end was top-tier. Zach's level of proprioception and his ability to tweak his form accurately in all those different ways in real time really shows how much of a high caliber athlete he is. Any aspiring disc golfer would be keen to emulate his form.
I love this video! Very fascinating. My 3 theories to reduce spin: 1. Reduce grip pressure at the hit. Grip it hard, but let go of the disc at the release point, instead of ripping the disc. 2. Drop the elbow. Pull through lower to reduce elbow leverage. 3. Timing. His timing is slow to fast, so try speeding up the footwork and reach back.
I firmly believe that, even though many pro disc golfers can have an “average build” you can hide a few key components that generate huge distance. I believe that besides physical timing and execution, I find these less considered factors very influential (not in order of importance) 1. Grip strength: the harder you can clamp down on the disc, the more you can extract from the hit… more speed & spin. This isn’t about how hard you hold the disc in your hand, more so about peak power output when it matters most. 2. Core strength: greater rotational stability provides better motion efficiency (from backswing to follow through) and higher strength, that means more rotational speed and better force transfer during the full motion. Then the secret components 3. Rotational MOBILITY of the torso: The ability to separate the rotation of the shoulders and hips allows for a longer lever length/swing length and more time for force application to the throwing arm. 4. Shoulder stability/mobility: greater stability produces more efficiency and consistency. A large and stable range of motion allows the optimal use of all previous factors + injury resistance. (POSSIBLE HYPOTHESIS) The end of a disc golf throw is essentially pulling the arm away from the joint. If the brain/body is more prepared to handle those forces, there is less of a subconscious limiting effect on top speed. On top of what is discussed here, other comments have also noted during the slow-mo’s that he appears to rip his hand from the disc just as much as the disc from his hand. That might be affecting the force vector on release, generating extra spin by pulling both through and slightly across. Basically, Zach exhibits extreme levels of strength and stability within all areas of force generation even though he isn’t massively built (except those calves… WOW). He also demonstrates high levels of mobility through the extreme rotational separation between his shoulders and hips on his reach back. His shoulders are built to withstand these pressures and are very stable at these large ranges of motion. His core not only generates a lot of power and speed through strength and high rotation, but his stability makes energy transfer extremely efficient to the throwing arm where his grip strength, even if “loose”, can apply enough force to get the discs through the hit enough to generate that crazy spin.
As we look at power generation from athletes, we find time and time again that strength through large ranges of motion is key to peak output. The fastest sprinters and highest jumpers also have the best strength at the extreme ends of ROM like the Nordic curl. The fastest baseball pitchers nearly all have inhuman levels of shoulder stability and strength to generate their speed. Lastly core strength is essential to every athletic movement, it needs to be strong not just forward but also when rotated so crunches aren’t enough. If you made it down here, thank you for reading this. If I’ve made any errors, let me know :)
@@acannoli8287 I would like to ask him which muscles or muscle groups he thinks are the most exhausted after several rounds of disc golf or whether he sometimes gets sore muscles. That way we could find out where he gets the strength from. However, I don't think it has much to do with muscles. My strength levels are better than Ezra's, but I know that my flexibility is poor. Which certainly creates some resistance.
That’s the point of my comment, it’s the ability to produce strength and stability, through a larger than normal range of motion, that may be the cause for extra spin and speed generation. I would look at UA-camrs like KneesOverToesGuy and hybrid calisthenics. I think that kind of strength+mobility is what disc-golfers should be chasing. Congratulations on your strength goals btw!
one thing that stands out about his form is how far and quickly his right arms wraps around the back of his body after the release. It's like he is ripping his arm away from the disc at the exact time the disc is ripping out of his hand. Where as others seem to let the disc rip out of their hand and slow down the arm from that point on. I think what I am seeing is his arm speed continues through the releasing of the disc, rather than a quick deceleration of the arms, and limited swing to the back of his body. He also appears to have fairly flexible joints, which would aid in accomplishing this type of arm movement.
Played one round with Zach and took a video of him on one of the long holes here locally. Been studying his form ever since and not sure what I’m doing but it’s helped add distance and accuracy. Such a good dude!
Check out how far away his elbow is from his body - and how close the disc gets to his chest. This creates a big fulcrum with his elbow and the disc just pivots and slings out.
After our conversation on Insta a few days back, I went out into the field and tested a form similar to Zach's, with the disc being extended out in a parallel plane to my shoulder as I coil back into the brace, which I think really helps my timing. I only had a chance to do maybe 20-30 throws, but the feeling of being able to time the plant easier, without necessarily reaching back or thinking about doing it, was a nice change. I always appreciate the break down you all give on this stuff, and how we can try and break it down and make it work for us.
Pausing it at 18:17, during the reach back his chest almost points 270 degrees away from the line of flight, which, combined with a strong core, could be part of the answer.
@@bbd1254 I was watching it in 0.25 speed and paused it when my jaw hit the spacebar, and then it said 18:17. But yhea very last millisecond of reach back is my point 😂
Yeah, I noticed this as well and thought maybe I was seeing things. Then checked the Simon and Drew slow motion videos and they don't get anywhere near the angle Zach gets too.
I don't know that it's relative, but this guys footwork and how he gets into the coil and uncoils just seems different from other pros. Basic mechanics may be the same with the x step, but the guy loads up in a way that just seems unique.
Awesome vid! I just discovered Zach a week ago and have been very interested in his form. I'm convinced wrist curl is the biggest factor as long as the rest of the form is good. I'm pretty sure his normal form has a lot of wrist curl but,, he's so used to it he doesn't feel it or have to try to do it. It's can be tough to see wrist curl except from the top view like in the Gannon slow motion vid with multiple angles (at 2m 16s). At 18:14 I think you can pretty clearly see the wrist is not straight with the forearm because it is quite curled. From the side view (depending on camera angle), this tends to hide the disc behind the forearm rather than seeing more of the disc sticking out back beyond the hand. I also think a wider reachback makes wrist curl more likely to happen automatically because there's a bigger in-out-redirect angle that is more likely to push the wrist into curling. It's cool that a lot of this seems to match up to some of my testing, lots of grip tests and my spin changed a bit but not a significant amount until I did more wrist curl. Also, surprisingly, my early slip releases are weirdly at my higher spin rates, so that was funny to see.
The interesting thing about wrist curl, is that he said that he's trying to do the opposite and keep the wrist straight. So maybe there's more tension on the wrist, so that when it does break, it snaps back harder?
@@wzywgwzywg Possibly, but his 'loose wrist' attempts gave high spin iirc. For me, I intentionally focused on not a lot of wrist curl when I started playing because I was trying to simplify the form and just get things on plane first and get a decent nose angle and I was worried adding more wrist curl might be too hard at first. When doing that I get 1050-1150 spin on average, I think because my tensed enough to avoid a lot of wrist curl. Compared to when I trained more worst curl my average spin went up 100-150 rpms with a max of 1350. A lot of pros have learned many things intuitively or use cues that don't directly map on to what they are actually doing, so it could also just be a case of that.
I don't have a techdisc so it's all feels. But I agree. I feel like when I keep the wrist stiff with pressure favoring a curl, the curl happens on its own when the forearm is forced out. Path of least resitance kinda. But honestly I have no idea without putting an overhead camera while using a techdisc.
I wonder if grip strength still might have something to do with it. Zach looks like a super strong guy, so his 50% grip pressure might still be most people’s max or even more.
It just feels like he’s got phenomenal core strength and his “default” is a prefect hit position, where the rest of us almost never get into prefect position. Even when he’s trying to screw up he reverts back to great form.
I see super flexible torso, look how long he is still reaching back after his foot plants. Then his pull through looks like he is throwing something with weight to it. A lot of pop. Great follow though. Pretty awesome.
I have to agree with Mikey, this is one of the most fun videos you've done. Great stuff Definitely not a physics expert, just your average noodle arm, but for the fun of it Ill give my 2 cents. I would guess the spin has something to do with keeping the disc "trapped" behind his arm (relative to the line of release) for as long as possible so that it has to whip out all at once at the hit. In other words, his hand and arm are "in the way" until the last moment when the disc has to whip around it. I think the strong grip isnt a cause of the spin but a result of the form. In order to have any accuracy with that form he needs to hang on for dear life or else its coming out early.
Drew Gibson talked about that when he was coaching Bodanza last winter. Drew has a high spin rate too and he keeps his wrist really firm through the hit as well.
I think it has to do with his intention about pushing his elbow away from his body. Angular momentum is a function of linear velocity, mass, and radius of rotation. Assuming same speed and mass, maximizing distance of the disc from our body at the exit of the hit increases angular momentum. Arm length doesnt change, but pushing the elbow out gives that extra shoulder length, plus his 11 O'clock release point gives extra radius of rotation.
Assuming momentum is transferred efficiently (disc takes most of it and the body is left with little) then the disc must maintain high angular momentum by spinning since it travels in a straight line after release
I had a weird spin rate discovery last week that others may want to mess with. I am an am that typically throws in the high 50s mph and the high 900s in spin. Last week i was messsing around with grips and I tried to keep my grip as loose as possible during runup and reach back and only when i started my swing did i try to grip as hard as possible. first throw like this was over 1000 spin rate. I kept trying the same thing and the numbers kept climbing. by throw 10 i was over 1200 in spin rate. had a few get over 60 in speed, which was nice, but the real eye popping change was spin rate. i have been trying to figure out how/why this worked. one of my theories was that by keeping my grip loose i was able to keep my wrist and other joints loose as well. Hearing that Zach attempts to lock out his wrist throws a little cold water on this explanation. My second hypothesis is that a very hard grip is important to spin rate and perhaps i am not able to maintain maximum grip pressure throughout the time it takes to line up, run up, reach back, and throw. by waiting to engage my hard grip until the last second, i can harness my max grip force. anyhow, much like Josh here, i know nothing and am guessing wildly while trying to figure it out. let me know if any of ya'll have attempted this or have theories.
Great segment! I think we'll find the same kinds of things that have been discovered with baseball pitchers: the ability to create spin is both a natural gift, and something that can be developed to some degree. There are all kinds of theories for baseball pitchers: finger strength, wrist strength, wrist and finger flexibility, finger length, hand size....on and on. Zach clearly has a gift. Exactly what physical characteristics make up this gift is a bit of a mystery at the moment. Thanks for sharing this.
great video and thx, It looks like he has almost perfect centrifugal force, which allows him to get more spin on the disc. His power pocket is perfect-just as he's nearly stopped the forward motion of his body, the disc is centered in front of his chest, and his wrist is angled inward at 45 degrees just before power pocket. This gives him more spin on the disc as a result. From behind, you can see how much spin he generates and why. so the answer is centrifugal force. 🤓 and wrist flick.
The answer seems to be that he's imparting some sort of magic into the disc that makes it spin more. In seriousness though I think the next level for the sport (or for coaching at least) has to be either really high speed cameras for super slow motion analysis and/or some kind of way to track different forces being applied to the disc. The latter being, for example, tracking which muscles are being used at which point in the throw and most importantly what forces are being applied by the fingers/hand. This is partially because players don't consciously know exactly what they do during the throw, which means (1) you can try to do different things consciously which still revert to what you've practiced thousands of times (or your brain may even change other things to make up for what you're slacking on) and (2) you may think you're doing one thing but in reality it changes at speed. We can see (1) happening a few times when e.g. Zach tries to bring his backswing out more and I think (2) is happening where he thinks he's keeping a straight wrist but it looks like he actually curls it inward quite a bit when he brings the disc forward. Also, I think we still don't understand how the gyroscopic properties of the disc really affect the flight. I'm particularly intrigued by how low his wobble is and how flat the launch angle seems to be. I'm just brainstorming here, but it seems plausible to me that keeping the disc on-line (which is not necessarily "flat" but rather flat relative to the line you're pulling it on) without deviation off that axis (i.e. off-axis torque) means more of the force imparted on the disc actually turns into spin (i.e. on-axis torque) rather than wasting the energy off-axis. Additionally, this saves the energy dissipating while the disc corrects itself to flat as well as the loss to air resistance during that time. I don't know what point in time is recorded by the techdisc but this wobble and correction can occur before the disc even releases so I think it would be visible in the techdisc data. I have a liberal arts B.A. and a law degree though so I really have no background in physics.
I really just believe that the fact of the matter is that Zach is a guy who has all of the most important points of the backhand form absolutely perfected. Timing is perfected, and he’s in shape. That’s all it comes down to. Throw his timing off just a little and I can imagine there’ll be a drop in something. I’m a chest open thrower, and when my reach back peaks before my plant, everything is way out of wack haha
Hey Josh, Fraser here. It's hard to tell only by the slow mo field footage, but if we trust Zach is repeatable with his form it looks like he's rounding at the end. His launch direction is more clockwise to the direction of travel from extension point to release point (more right if you watch the footage from behind.) I can't go frame by frame but that would add some more whip action, thus applying additional torque on the outside of the disc.
I find it helpful when talking about grip to show it on a transparent disc. And to mention when someone is referring to applying pressure into the flight plate vs into the rim.
To me it looks like his core strength and technique with his core are what is doing it. You should have him not tighten his core as he throws and I bet it drops significantly.
I get 1600+ rpms and I could be wrong, but I think that it largely depends on how long you keep your wrist cocked. That seems to be what Thomas Gilbert, Garret Gurthie and Zach all have in common, especially compared to somone like Ezra Aderhold who has a lower spin rate. I also think the being open at release thing matters because the longer you can rotate whilst keeping your wrist cocked, the more potential energy will build up.
Josh, i hope you see this. I've been thinking a lot about what would cause spin to be higher or lower since this video came out, and i wanted to come up with a solid hypothesis before commenting which is why I'm late. Physics tells us that spin is caused by torque, which is rotational acceleration caused by a force. So, the first question I think of is when are we applying torque to the disc? With proper form, the disc shouldn't rotate much except between the power pocket, and the release. So, I i think that it's that small window where all spin is created due to the torque of opening up your arm causing rotational acceleration on the disc. But, that doesnt explain why two people throwing the same speed can have vastly different spin rates. What we have to remember is force causes acceleration, so the question to ask is where are we accelerating the disc? We know there is rotational acceleration from power pocket to release, because the disc turns a corner while in our hand. This requires a force be applied to the disc. But, there is also linear acceleration that has to happen for the disc to have speed along with the spin. My hypothesis is that the largest spin is created when both the linear acceleration and the rotational acceleration happen at the same time. Zach said that his focus is on pushing out the elbow, helping him reach the power pocket (BlitzDG and NickKrush do something very similar as well). Pushing the elbow out is not a quick linear acceleration movement. I think most of Zach's linear acceleration happens between power pocket and release, which is why he looks so relaxed in his form until he absolutely explodes at the very last second. If you watch the disc, it's moving pretty slow into the pocket, and then has an insane force and acceleration applied from pocket to release. My hypothesis is most disc golfers apply linear acceleration earlier than Zach does, which means there's less linear acceleration and thus less force between power pocket and release, meaning less torque and less spin but with the same speed. As has been noted, this does mean a strong grip is needed to apply that much torque, which Zach clearly has. If my hypothesis is correct, increasing spin should be accomplished by not pulling with the arm at all, and focusing on a clean power pocket with the shoulder down and elbow pushed out, and allowing an explosive linear and rotational force from power pocket to release.
Old Tristan Tanner form vibes. I think he gets so much spin from the insane flexibility and range of motion on his coil and release. 18:18 his upper body is pointing 45 degrees-ish right while his hips are facing 45 degrees-ish left. He's coiled as deeply as a human body can get. Then at 18:20 his right arm is as left as can be. I'd have a shoulder tear. It's not surprising, then, that the rate at which he rotates from peak coil to peak arm follow through that he's able to generate that much spin. Bad news for all of us regular humans is we can't really replicate it Edit: Just tried the Zach Nash form and squeezed the crap out of my disc and was consistently throwing 62-63mph average (up from 59). Spin went down from a 1200 rpm average to 1150
Okay, after thinking about it, most of the spin is done with the subtlest fine motor skills in the hand and the wrist. This is implied by the fact that whatever Zach tries to alter in his form, the results stay pretty much on the same level. He can't have a lousy spin even if he wants to since most of the alterations happen very noticeably, like the swing path and the grip. We can't see what happens in the fine motor units, which he can't control consciously, which move naturally at this point; at the last fraction of a second, the disc releases. I mean... We all had a big wobble when we first learned the backhand, right? I know I did, especially in putting. After a while, I discovered the smooth release. After years of throwing somewhat correctly, I won't get noticeable changes no matter what I change in my form or grip. For instance, I never get wobble on purpose, only accidentally. And nowadays, I really have to make the disc wobble in putting to get the result I wanted. I don't know why Zach has the spin he has, but I'm sure he can't have much less of it unless he relearns some habits that, at this point, don't feel natural to him. And that would, of course, be detrimental to his game.
What I see is he is curling the disc even he was telling to he try keep wrist straight as possible. Can be seen in slomotion and would be even clear if there would be view on top (drone) like you guys did with Gannon few years ago. I think its natural to curl disc, because center mass of the disc is more towards to body, so wrist has to curl when accelerating disc (at 80 mph it would otherwise slip out too soon).
I think something I have noticed with high spin guys in slow motion is that there is a substantial late acceleration. No matter how he changed the grip and reach back, once he was slotted from the extension to the hit, the acceleration looks like a steep curve where it is like a slow jog to maximum sprint in an instant. Some grips may have not let him hit when he wanted but fundamentally, the late acceleration still created a high spin rate. Imagine holding a disc with a max extended arm and sitting on a spin-able seat. You never tuck arm. Over several revolutions you reach what would be 70 mph (or any other arbitrary number) and the disc ejects from your hand. The other scenario is like the back hand where as you extend, you begin to move the disc in and accelerate the elbow forward maxing the acceleration in last 10% of t movement. As you brace, the body rotates opening the last lever with the disc ejecting at 70 mph (arbitrary number but same speed as other throw). One has spin (throw 2) and the other is still at 70 mph close to a knuckle ball level of spin because it came from rounded acceleration where the disc wouldn’t have been tucked. Another way to imagine is spinning in a circle like a hammer thrower. The weight on end is released out with no spin. If you had a sledgehammer on a short handle, you could probably slowly spin like you were doing a hammer or weight throw and compare to if you hold it like a disc and spin and brace where the hammer handle would go from the front to the back adding rotation at release. This picture isn’t as easy to paint with words as a visual would be. For those that are billiard players, you know to draw the ball, you have to be accelerating through contact. If you are at max acceleration from the start of movement, there will be less spin a miscue probably vaulting the ball off the table. Someone acknowledged how smooth and effortless he appears. I think that is what is making it happen is a good use of delayed acceleration so that the hand gets moving super fast by the ripping of the disc from the grip.
I would also be curious how long his forearm is relative to his upper arm. I also wonder if he has relatively large hands relative to his height. I think longer end levers relative to early levers create more spin potential by maximizing late acceleration.
He looks like he has a long wingspan for his height, josh isnt much shorter but the arm length is noticeable. And look how much his arm is around the disc leading to the release. He's like a trebuchet and his timing is incredible
Might be worth looking at forearm length as a factor for spin. I would expect that for two players who throw the same speed, the one with shorter forearms has higher spin. This is because the length of the forearm is the radius at which the disc rotates as it swings out of the pocket, and a smaller radius requires a higher angular velocity to generate the same tangential linear velocity.
His timing is pretty amazing. As is his form. On the rear view, look at his chest rotation, in relation to the brace. His chest is still rotating backwards (counterclockwise from above) when his foot contacts. He allows his body momentum to keep moving forward at this time. When his front foot starts taking weight, his off hand punch has begun, and he begins to rotate his chest. You can also note at this time, he has about a 110 degree angle on his front leg, but is straight about 12 frames later.
This makes me just want to quit. I break 1100 and I feel proud of myself LOL. Can you show his disk line in his backswing? LOOKS like a "J" shape reach back. Also, He may think he's locking his wrist, but he is super coiling his wrist at the 18:19 point of the video. His elbow being so much higher than his wrist makes for a really long whip. What a BEAST!!.
I would check out his grip at the release. Sometimes I feel that my pressure loosens up towards the hit. Maybe he is able to keep pressure on at this point to release, where other players are lessening their grip.
Disc RPM = Moment arm RPM, always. Except for losses caused by imperfections (like our fingers being in the way of the disc instead of just instantly disappearing when the disc "wants" to exit). Assuming an average distance driver with 21.1cm diameter, the circumference is 66.254cm. A spin of 1700 RPM is "only" a rotational speed of 18.77m/s, or 42mph. If the launch speed of the disc is 70mph and the spin only accounts for 42 of those, we will have to make some generalizations with regards to spin lost to release imperfections etc. If the disc *is* released perfectly and still only rotates at 1700RPM, then the circle along a sector of which the moment arm is travelling would have to have a circumference about 35% larger than a normal distance driver. My theory therefore; Bracing with a front-leg-push, which can make the upper body travel backwards slightly even in the runup, should, in theory, have an enormous effect on spin, because it makes the throwing arm describe a much smaller circle, which will give higher spin relative to launch speed. Also, probably, modifying the grip to be as "clean" in the release moment as possible while still being strong enough to withstand the high G-forces associated with moving quickly and altering the direction will obviously also positively impact the spin rate, but also the launch speed. Your idea of "one side pulling while the other one is trying to get forward" would slow the disc down enormously. I just doesn't track with observed reality. Zach pulling the disc from far out in front of him actually gives a good advantage here. It's a bit like a formula 1 car turning a corner really fast by swinging wide then cuttin in, while rounding and "falling over the brace" makes the arm describe an enormous circle and also tends to have really shitty spin.
A couple of things I noticed, that would be worth looking at that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere: 1.When his disc is in the pocket, his hand kind of wraps around the back of the disc (you can kind of see his wrist breaking in toward his chest around 18:18). 2.Watching the end credits, his hands are huge compared to yours while you're about the same height and that might contribute further to this. I think the test would be to throw a disc with just your arm, one with your wrist cocked and another with your wrist in line with your forearm.
I think we need to incorporate some physical stats. Like if he has an insane ape index, long fingers, hyper mobile shoulders, etc. it could be correlated with that.
It seems like grip strength allows you to tailor your form to increase speed and spin. Without the pressure against the disc from your grip you can't apply the force to release the disc
This is such a curious problem. Can we see some footage of directly above or below a throw? Looking along the spin axle should show how the disc moves laterally relative to the force applied. I feel from that position you would be able to see the disc actually being turned in the hand during the throw
I’d recently started backloading my grip (tried to match my grip to eagle and buckets) like he’s explaining and I feel like it helped my distance. I didn’t tech disc it unfortunately.
It would be interesting to see leverage lengths. Larger ape index, longer forearm vs upper arm, and maybe longer wrist and hands. Seeing the different players compared in this way might give some insights. It would be also fun just as a player statistic at least for Ape Index.
Hey! I happened to be making form changes that mainly affected my spin and consistency recently. I found i had anterior pelvic tilt and a very slight hunch in the shoulders/chest. I went from averaging around 1225 rpms to getting up to 1350-1400. My top speed generally remained the same (69/70) but my brace was more consistent due to my spine being aligned. I would definitely suggest hunching a lot, a little and not at all, and then do the same with pelvic tilt way back, slightly back, and forward/directly under you. And then combine the two. To throw it back at you, even though i found these posture changes to make huge differences in my spin, it didnt change my forehand spin almost at all. I have friend that throw forehands 10 mph slower but have 100 more rpms than me. I can throw 66-69 mph forehands but i cant get my spin over 750 (unless im really focusing on just spin, then im throwing much much slower). It'd be fun to see some spin testing on forehands! P.S. fixing my posture also made my 360s actually have a higher speed than my normal runups for the first time ever, however, the spin never reached 1400 while doing so.
This is what is so frustrating about form ideas to me. You'll have people teach you to use as light of a grip as you can without losing control. They you have Zach who says "grip it hard". It clearly works for Zach. Does that mean it will work for me? I guess only one way to find out...
I would have been curious to see what his numbers looked like from a stand still or one leg drill. He has insane speed during the final plant/release. You can really tell when he goes for the 80 mph throw. That plant/uncoil is very aggressive.
Well, guys it's not what we can see that creates all that spin. Yes, good form can take us to new heights, but, why can some sprinters out sprint another ?? FAST TWITCH fiber muscles, we either got boings or we don't, or, we have a little lol ... love the content and Nash can Smash ! :)
This is some very interesting stuff. My thoughts: the throw is way more autonomic than we believe. I think some of these guys that just absolutely bomb got kinda lucky in a way. Everyone talks about the timing being the most important part of the throw. When you consider the hundreds of muscles that are innervated by hundreds of nerves, it seems impossible to train everyone neural pathway to fire at the perfect time. The minute milliseconds of difference can make a drastic difference when it is compounded by all the other pathways that are trying to work in sync. Why do I say they may have gotten kinda lucky? Well, they may have just hit the right sequence early on when drilling in their form. Because once that movement becomes more automatic, it starts to be controlled by the spine. The neural triggers are no longer even controlled by the brain. Now imagine changing all these tiny, precise movements after it has already become an automated motion. I think this video is evidence of this, too. You are trying to get him to change all these things, but the results aren't changing. He can't change the timing his muscles are firing in at this point. It's automatic. I've struggled with getting any real change in my tech disc numbers. I can do wild things like pretend im throwing a spinning back fist and hit the exact same numbers i do with my standard form. I think the only way to truly change would be to quit throwing for a long time until your body loses muscle memory. And by change, I mean get these drastically higher numbers. Of course, working on your form is still very beneficial for maximizing what you have. Any healthy guy should be able to hit 400+, but that 200ft more these guys get just probably won't ever happen no matter how perfect your form looks on camera.
Back in the early 2000's in the old DGR days, Blake relayed a tip he got from a pro at the time where he was told to pull back on the disc at the hit similar to what you describe in the vid. Back then, too, the thinking was that throwers should be more faced up at the hit. Not sure the facing-up thinking aged well, but pulling back on the disc would be interesting to experiment with
So, what about measuring lever points. Shoulder to elbow, elbow to wrist. Does he have whiplash from a 'perfect' combination of levers? Could there be a correlation to twisting speed of his shoulders, and at what angle his shoulders are at release compared to direction of release? Finally, you almost hit on this on one of your attempts, but, does he lose spin if he threw from his pull back point? That is, no shoulder twist from pull back, just movement at driving shoulder and elbow. Great video! He made your requests for modifications look so easy. Thanks
Here’s my guess as to why it works. Wrist flexion. Deep power pocket causes you to cup your wrist which is movement your body uses to hold onto something. Keeping arm out he’s cupping less or holding on less
Just a thought on what generates the spin it's due to deceleration. As you move up the kinetic chain each piece before it decelerates, if you finish more open to the target there's a good chance that you maintained acceleration longer into the throw and really decelerate the hands/arm closer to the moment of impact/release. It doesn't necessarily translate directly into disc speed but it would have a pretty high corrilation with spin since the last bit of deceleration is right on the rim of the disc at release.
If you wanted him change spin have him accelerate his arm earlier in the throw so that it's at speed/decelerating longer or later for the opposite effect.
My personal theory is that a lot of the spin comes from how efficienly you are able to accelerate the throw in the pocket. Like staying loose and pulling "slowly" into the pocket and THEN hitting all the accelerators. To do that efficiently you NEED a strong core. Could be that all the lanky mofos out there just dont have that pure explosive core, they just turn on the power a tad earlier to make sure the disc goes super fast rather than super spinny?
It looks to me like his arm swing is very similar to the disc throwing algorithm that sketches for humanities program came up with for the most efficient way to throw a disc like object.
Per Michael Sizemore from Tech Disc: "The TechDisc measures data for about 20 ms after release. That comes out to less than 2 feet for most people and less than 3 feet for the fastest throwers. We typically recommend 3 feet of free flight to be safe." So yeah a meter would be sufficient. 🙂
1:48, you both have your arms extended and man his arms look crazy long especially from the elbow to the wrist or maybe the lens is distorting it. Start measuring people’s arms. Lol Awesome vid! Insane to easily throw over 70 mph with that much spin.
@@lukevaichus 100% he does. Protraction of the scapula - he does it with that early straight arm motion that gets the disc, hand and most importantly elbow as far away from his body as possible
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Most interesting! Thank you!
Just for reference, Zach is 5'9-5'10 and is still able to get this sort of spin. So he is a way better guy to try and replicate form wise for your average player. Not AB or Gannon since theyre 6'4 and 6'6. Zach is a good friend of mine who has helped me add 40-50 feet and hoping to add more with him this off season
I tried to tell Yasha that the other day, and he swore zach was 6'1" at least!
@@bgfishing7327I’m a short king
RIP us short kings who try to blame our lack of distance due to our height ☹️
This is reassuring news for us avg height people.
Any pointers he gave you 😊besides back loading, hit point, core and left trap?
Looking at his throw and thinking of the fundamentals I see the following. His run up is not super fast like other pros and he is definitely more of a rotational thrower vs a like a Calvin or James Conrad where they are very linear with a fast run up, slamming their leg and forcing their linear momentum into rotational force.
Josh asked for paragraphs so we’re cooking here. His plant step is very long and very out, like almost 45 degrees from his throwing line. Also if you watch the slow mo at 1/4 speed (I did this a few times) you see his back swing is very back. Like he is turning his whole upper back to the target AND KEEPING IT THERE until after his plant foot hits the ground. After he has planted with his leg really angled away from the target the disc begins to move.
From there his throw doesn’t look any different then dang near perfect “classical” form. I paused the slow mo in the middle of his swing and he has a perfect 90 def power pocket, great swing through the hit and great follow through.
Conclusions? We saw that it wasn’t his grip that affected his spin, not the wrist, and nothing about his throw looks abnormal except for one thing I can see. His backswing and his plant step. I think his spin and speed are coming from his really high coil he is getting from being turned so far away from the target line for so long. I dont think other pros stay that turned away from the target line for as long as he does. Like I want to keep rambling about how he is basically executing what Josh and Seabass have been showing in static positions and exercises for years now. Point the butt at the target and keep yourself coiled until way after you plant. Then pushing strong into the ground and pulling into the pocket.
I think it is Zach’s crazy backwards plant step and coil that is getting him such high numbers. Hopefully I don’t get torn apart in the comments lol
At 18:17 we see him rotate his shoulders almost 270 degrees, reaching far back. I think his "secret" is a long reachback, wide elbow, deep power pocket and quick rotation. Basically, he is a longer whip cracked well. This gives him a better power potential, which he is able to utilize through a strong core, back, shoulder and grip.
and legs
So smooth for that level of power. Just perfect!
Loop! ❤️
At lake Eureka, I watched Zach throw a 550 foot hyzer with a halo Boss. He’s a very underrated thrower and player! He has all the tools needed to be one of the best in the sport.
Not taking anything away from Zach but the same thing applies to most guys on the tour. Its just a matter of consistency and having the least deviance between good and bad shots
I remember watching the NADGT finals that he was competing in (i think it's on youtube) and he was LAUNCHING discs WAY past his competitors. It was cool to see.
You guys need a super slo-mo camera so you could see how the disc travels from the pocket to the hit. Then have a few pros with different spins throw and analyse what could be the biggest factor for more spin.
Even better would be a super DUPER slow-mo camera. *taps temple*
even better would be a Super Duper Mega Ultra Extreme Supreme Awesome slo-mo camera.
It would take some Tesla cameras - used for self driving - and AI to analyze a whole bunch of video correlated with data from tech disc to figure out the biomechanics so that the ai could predict from video footage what the results of a throw would be sans tech disc. If it can do that, then it could probably articulate what the differences are… ?
colab with slo-mo guys needs to happen
Not sure if the slo mo guys would do it, but smarter every day has a super slo mo Camera as well and has done disc golf videos on disc production. Might be a possibility.
I think he said it himself at 7:00. "I think my arm speed is going to go 70 and the disc is going to go 50." This is also the biggest variance in disc speed and spin. As Zach increases his grip strength the disc is able to match the speed of the arm. Zack is able to gradually get the disc to his correct hit point.
Which I think means two things. First, If Zack was weaker in his grip strength then he wouldn't be able to hold on with enough force to match the speed of his arm to the disc. It would always early release then he would adjust his form naturally to make up for it. Second, this might mean that people could already be throwing at 70+ but their grip strength isn't able to hold on long enough to impart all the force from the arm to the disc! If that is true then we can change how we train to increase distance in disc golf.
If possible would you be able to use a hand dynamometer that mimics the grip of disc golf? I think the move would be to go out with a tech disc and hand dynamometer side by side and get some data plots. Also if possible see if you can find a way to measure just arm speed not the disc speed. There is an Arm Speed Analyzer app on the apple watch.
This is pretty interesting. Conventional advice is a loser grip will get you a faster wrist and more spin. But Zach is showing us that doesn't appear to be the case. I'm going to try gripping harder and see if I notice any difference in distance / accuracy.
@@AllbirdbagI started getting much more distance when I started gripping the hell out of my discs last year. I don’t know that that is what caused it, but I never stopped doing it.
@@bbd1254 did you grab harder with all finger or just back/front?
I’ve also dramatically improved from a strong pinch grip. When I grip hard, my body seems to subconsciously know it can move faster. Never been more accurate.
I made another comment on here with a similar theory. I think what’s more important than perceived grip pressure is peak grip strength. You need to be able to grip the disc into and through the hit to get 100% out of your throw. Doesn’t matter if you start loose and tighten or mash the whole way.
I am so pumped you got Zach Nash on. Been a fan of his form for a while. I think it's very reminiscent of Will Schusterick in many ways, and I bet Will has insane spin too.
I think the high spin has to do with a deep, circular rotation in the reachback that would be rounding in a most throwers but is countered by the wide elbow.
Just spent some time looking at slow-mo and stepping through. I don't have answers, but what I noticed is:
Check out power pocket on side view (around 18:00). His foot/ankle are turned more back than I think I have ever seen on a power thrower.
In the behind view, it worked out that he threw the disc perfectly on one of the mow lines. What I noticed is his reach back is straight, he pulls through on a line inside of the mow line (but parallel), then starts to rotate torso which puts the disc on the line that it follows until release and after. I haven't compared to others, so don't know if that is unique or not. This is not "wide rail" or "out in out" like I expected to see. it is more like ___/¯¯¯¯
Finally, big thanks to Overthrow for doing vids like this. It is the coolest to see these and be able to analyze and discuss! I am going to try his super-rotated reachback in the field, as I am fit/flexible enough to do it :)
The ability to control little things like he did is CRAZY! I have no clue where the disc is going to come out ...every throw...Keep it coming boys!!
Hey I know that guy, go Zach! 👏
The answer is his flexibility. He can efficiently coil further than the average pro giving him a longer whip effect on the disc. Thats why when you heard him say at 14:50 in reference to the reach back position, “I try to keep my form really wide unless I’m crushing it” . To me that says he’s trying to reach out instead of back but his coil is very deep so it results in being straight back instead of out.
The ultimate slingshot.
Cool meeting you at Worlds, Josh. That slow-mo goodness at the end was top-tier. Zach's level of proprioception and his ability to tweak his form accurately in all those different ways in real time really shows how much of a high caliber athlete he is. Any aspiring disc golfer would be keen to emulate his form.
Great player, even better person. Nice video... love to see it
I love this video! Very fascinating.
My 3 theories to reduce spin:
1. Reduce grip pressure at the hit. Grip it hard, but let go of the disc at the release point, instead of ripping the disc.
2. Drop the elbow. Pull through lower to reduce elbow leverage.
3. Timing. His timing is slow to fast, so try speeding up the footwork and reach back.
Interesting idea !
I firmly believe that, even though many pro disc golfers can have an “average build” you can hide a few key components that generate huge distance.
I believe that besides physical timing and execution, I find these less considered factors very influential (not in order of importance)
1. Grip strength: the harder you can clamp down on the disc, the more you can extract from the hit… more speed & spin. This isn’t about how hard you hold the disc in your hand, more so about peak power output when it matters most.
2. Core strength: greater rotational stability provides better motion efficiency (from backswing to follow through) and higher strength, that means more rotational speed and better force transfer during the full motion.
Then the secret components
3. Rotational MOBILITY of the torso: The ability to separate the rotation of the shoulders and hips allows for a longer lever length/swing length and more time for force application to the throwing arm.
4. Shoulder stability/mobility: greater stability produces more efficiency and consistency. A large and stable range of motion allows the optimal use of all previous factors + injury resistance. (POSSIBLE HYPOTHESIS) The end of a disc golf throw is essentially pulling the arm away from the joint. If the brain/body is more prepared to handle those forces, there is less of a subconscious limiting effect on top speed.
On top of what is discussed here, other comments have also noted during the slow-mo’s that he appears to rip his hand from the disc just as much as the disc from his hand. That might be affecting the force vector on release, generating extra spin by pulling both through and slightly across.
Basically, Zach exhibits extreme levels of strength and stability within all areas of force generation even though he isn’t massively built (except those calves… WOW). He also demonstrates high levels of mobility through the extreme rotational separation between his shoulders and hips on his reach back. His shoulders are built to withstand these pressures and are very stable at these large ranges of motion. His core not only generates a lot of power and speed through strength and high rotation, but his stability makes energy transfer extremely efficient to the throwing arm where his grip strength, even if “loose”, can apply enough force to get the discs through the hit enough to generate that crazy spin.
As we look at power generation from athletes, we find time and time again that strength through large ranges of motion is key to peak output. The fastest sprinters and highest jumpers also have the best strength at the extreme ends of ROM like the Nordic curl. The fastest baseball pitchers nearly all have inhuman levels of shoulder stability and strength to generate their speed. Lastly core strength is essential to every athletic movement, it needs to be strong not just forward but also when rotated so crunches aren’t enough. If you made it down here, thank you for reading this. If I’ve made any errors, let me know :)
@@acannoli8287 I would like to ask him which muscles or muscle groups he thinks are the most exhausted after several rounds of disc golf or whether he sometimes gets sore muscles. That way we could find out where he gets the strength from.
However, I don't think it has much to do with muscles. My strength levels are better than Ezra's, but I know that my flexibility is poor. Which certainly creates some resistance.
Notes taken!
He said his forearm gets sore
That’s the point of my comment, it’s the ability to produce strength and stability, through a larger than normal range of motion, that may be the cause for extra spin and speed generation. I would look at UA-camrs like KneesOverToesGuy and hybrid calisthenics. I think that kind of strength+mobility is what disc-golfers should be chasing. Congratulations on your strength goals btw!
one thing that stands out about his form is how far and quickly his right arms wraps around the back of his body after the release. It's like he is ripping his arm away from the disc at the exact time the disc is ripping out of his hand. Where as others seem to let the disc rip out of their hand and slow down the arm from that point on. I think what I am seeing is his arm speed continues through the releasing of the disc, rather than a quick deceleration of the arms, and limited swing to the back of his body. He also appears to have fairly flexible joints, which would aid in accomplishing this type of arm movement.
Played one round with Zach and took a video of him on one of the long holes here locally. Been studying his form ever since and not sure what I’m doing but it’s helped add distance and accuracy.
Such a good dude!
Excellent grip detail. More back-loaded, but pinching too to hold a wrist position. Great video
Check out how far away his elbow is from his body - and how close the disc gets to his chest. This creates a big fulcrum with his elbow and the disc just pivots and slings out.
that slow-mo from the back shows a clean trebuchet like motion. He is so freak flexible too lol
That is the most perfect form I've ever seen! 🙌
After our conversation on Insta a few days back, I went out into the field and tested a form similar to Zach's, with the disc being extended out in a parallel plane to my shoulder as I coil back into the brace, which I think really helps my timing. I only had a chance to do maybe 20-30 throws, but the feeling of being able to time the plant easier, without necessarily reaching back or thinking about doing it, was a nice change.
I always appreciate the break down you all give on this stuff, and how we can try and break it down and make it work for us.
Fantastic. DG form is an enigma sometimes lol.
Pausing it at 18:17, during the reach back his chest almost points 270 degrees away from the line of flight, which, combined with a strong core, could be part of the answer.
Do you mean 170 degrees? Maybe my logic is off, but in my head 270 would be like his chest facing to the right ride of the screen
Nvm, pausing one second later ( at 18:18 ) I definitely see what you’re saying. He is definitely past 180°..😮😮
Note the trolls aren't here telling Zach how his form is trash, but are so vocal about the same things being wrong to others
@@bbd1254 I was watching it in 0.25 speed and paused it when my jaw hit the spacebar, and then it said 18:17. But yhea very last millisecond of reach back is my point 😂
Yeah, I noticed this as well and thought maybe I was seeing things. Then checked the Simon and Drew slow motion videos and they don't get anywhere near the angle Zach gets too.
I've never seen a smoother form. Seeing Zach throw in person will blow your mind.
No. No it will not. Speaking from experience
Zach makes Halo Destroyers fly like Teebirds.
I have watched LOTS of form videos and I would say his chest rotates back further on his backswing than anyone I’ve seen. Very interesting stuff!
First! The most insane part of this video? The fact that he can change anything in his form instantly. That is mastery...lol.
I don't know that it's relative, but this guys footwork and how he gets into the coil and uncoils just seems different from other pros. Basic mechanics may be the same with the x step, but the guy loads up in a way that just seems unique.
Awesome vid! I just discovered Zach a week ago and have been very interested in his form. I'm convinced wrist curl is the biggest factor as long as the rest of the form is good.
I'm pretty sure his normal form has a lot of wrist curl but,, he's so used to it he doesn't feel it or have to try to do it. It's can be tough to see wrist curl except from the top view like in the Gannon slow motion vid with multiple angles (at 2m 16s).
At 18:14 I think you can pretty clearly see the wrist is not straight with the forearm because it is quite curled. From the side view (depending on camera angle), this tends to hide the disc behind the forearm rather than seeing more of the disc sticking out back beyond the hand.
I also think a wider reachback makes wrist curl more likely to happen automatically because there's a bigger in-out-redirect angle that is more likely to push the wrist into curling.
It's cool that a lot of this seems to match up to some of my testing, lots of grip tests and my spin changed a bit but not a significant amount until I did more wrist curl. Also, surprisingly, my early slip releases are weirdly at my higher spin rates, so that was funny to see.
The interesting thing about wrist curl, is that he said that he's trying to do the opposite and keep the wrist straight. So maybe there's more tension on the wrist, so that when it does break, it snaps back harder?
@@wzywgwzywg Possibly, but his 'loose wrist' attempts gave high spin iirc.
For me, I intentionally focused on not a lot of wrist curl when I started playing because I was trying to simplify the form and just get things on plane first and get a decent nose angle and I was worried adding more wrist curl might be too hard at first. When doing that I get 1050-1150 spin on average, I think because my tensed enough to avoid a lot of wrist curl. Compared to when I trained more worst curl my average spin went up 100-150 rpms with a max of 1350.
A lot of pros have learned many things intuitively or use cues that don't directly map on to what they are actually doing, so it could also just be a case of that.
I don't have a techdisc so it's all feels. But I agree. I feel like when I keep the wrist stiff with pressure favoring a curl, the curl happens on its own when the forearm is forced out. Path of least resitance kinda. But honestly I have no idea without putting an overhead camera while using a techdisc.
I wonder if grip strength still might have something to do with it. Zach looks like a super strong guy, so his 50% grip pressure might still be most people’s max or even more.
It just looks like he has such a clean swing plane.
It just feels like he’s got phenomenal core strength and his “default” is a prefect hit position, where the rest of us almost never get into prefect position. Even when he’s trying to screw up he reverts back to great form.
I play with Zach back home and I think it’s all about his arm span and timing. Effortless power.
Using the back shoulder to set up the “tech back “ is great advice
I see super flexible torso, look how long he is still reaching back after his foot plants. Then his pull through looks like he is throwing something with weight to it. A lot of pop. Great follow though. Pretty awesome.
I have to agree with Mikey, this is one of the most fun videos you've done. Great stuff
Definitely not a physics expert, just your average noodle arm, but for the fun of it Ill give my 2 cents. I would guess the spin has something to do with keeping the disc "trapped" behind his arm (relative to the line of release) for as long as possible so that it has to whip out all at once at the hit. In other words, his hand and arm are "in the way" until the last moment when the disc has to whip around it. I think the strong grip isnt a cause of the spin but a result of the form. In order to have any accuracy with that form he needs to hang on for dear life or else its coming out early.
Drew Gibson talked about that when he was coaching Bodanza last winter. Drew has a high spin rate too and he keeps his wrist really firm through the hit as well.
@@MA4Kingwhich makes sense, when generating those levels of acceleration you’d HAVE to introduce some stability.
Zach also has a MASSIVE forehand. I wish you guys would have had him throw some forehands…I’m curious what his MPH & spin rate.
I think it has to do with his intention about pushing his elbow away from his body. Angular momentum is a function of linear velocity, mass, and radius of rotation. Assuming same speed and mass, maximizing distance of the disc from our body at the exit of the hit increases angular momentum. Arm length doesnt change, but pushing the elbow out gives that extra shoulder length, plus his 11 O'clock release point gives extra radius of rotation.
Assuming momentum is transferred efficiently (disc takes most of it and the body is left with little) then the disc must maintain high angular momentum by spinning since it travels in a straight line after release
Love the pursuit...
He's in Rochester NY this weekend. Got to meet Zach while returning his lost disc from my local course. Great guy. Wish him the best this weekend.
I had a weird spin rate discovery last week that others may want to mess with. I am an am that typically throws in the high 50s mph and the high 900s in spin. Last week i was messsing around with grips and I tried to keep my grip as loose as possible during runup and reach back and only when i started my swing did i try to grip as hard as possible. first throw like this was over 1000 spin rate. I kept trying the same thing and the numbers kept climbing. by throw 10 i was over 1200 in spin rate. had a few get over 60 in speed, which was nice, but the real eye popping change was spin rate.
i have been trying to figure out how/why this worked. one of my theories was that by keeping my grip loose i was able to keep my wrist and other joints loose as well. Hearing that Zach attempts to lock out his wrist throws a little cold water on this explanation. My second hypothesis is that a very hard grip is important to spin rate and perhaps i am not able to maintain maximum grip pressure throughout the time it takes to line up, run up, reach back, and throw. by waiting to engage my hard grip until the last second, i can harness my max grip force.
anyhow, much like Josh here, i know nothing and am guessing wildly while trying to figure it out. let me know if any of ya'll have attempted this or have theories.
but he is not locking his wrist 100%. You can see this at 18:00
Pause and use , and . to skip between frames
Great segment! I think we'll find the same kinds of things that have been discovered with baseball pitchers: the ability to create spin is both a natural gift, and something that can be developed to some degree. There are all kinds of theories for baseball pitchers: finger strength, wrist strength, wrist and finger flexibility, finger length, hand size....on and on. Zach clearly has a gift. Exactly what physical characteristics make up this gift is a bit of a mystery at the moment. Thanks for sharing this.
great video and thx, It looks like he has almost perfect centrifugal force, which allows him to get more spin on the disc. His power pocket is perfect-just as he's nearly stopped the forward motion of his body, the disc is centered in front of his chest, and his wrist is angled inward at 45 degrees just before power pocket. This gives him more spin on the disc as a result. From behind, you can see how much spin he generates and why. so the answer is centrifugal force. 🤓 and wrist flick.
The answer seems to be that he's imparting some sort of magic into the disc that makes it spin more.
In seriousness though I think the next level for the sport (or for coaching at least) has to be either really high speed cameras for super slow motion analysis and/or some kind of way to track different forces being applied to the disc. The latter being, for example, tracking which muscles are being used at which point in the throw and most importantly what forces are being applied by the fingers/hand.
This is partially because players don't consciously know exactly what they do during the throw, which means (1) you can try to do different things consciously which still revert to what you've practiced thousands of times (or your brain may even change other things to make up for what you're slacking on) and (2) you may think you're doing one thing but in reality it changes at speed. We can see (1) happening a few times when e.g. Zach tries to bring his backswing out more and I think (2) is happening where he thinks he's keeping a straight wrist but it looks like he actually curls it inward quite a bit when he brings the disc forward.
Also, I think we still don't understand how the gyroscopic properties of the disc really affect the flight. I'm particularly intrigued by how low his wobble is and how flat the launch angle seems to be. I'm just brainstorming here, but it seems plausible to me that keeping the disc on-line (which is not necessarily "flat" but rather flat relative to the line you're pulling it on) without deviation off that axis (i.e. off-axis torque) means more of the force imparted on the disc actually turns into spin (i.e. on-axis torque) rather than wasting the energy off-axis. Additionally, this saves the energy dissipating while the disc corrects itself to flat as well as the loss to air resistance during that time. I don't know what point in time is recorded by the techdisc but this wobble and correction can occur before the disc even releases so I think it would be visible in the techdisc data.
I have a liberal arts B.A. and a law degree though so I really have no background in physics.
I really just believe that the fact of the matter is that Zach is a guy who has all of the most important points of the backhand form absolutely perfected. Timing is perfected, and he’s in shape. That’s all it comes down to. Throw his timing off just a little and I can imagine there’ll be a drop in something. I’m a chest open thrower, and when my reach back peaks before my plant, everything is way out of wack haha
Hey Josh, Fraser here. It's hard to tell only by the slow mo field footage, but if we trust Zach is repeatable with his form it looks like he's rounding at the end. His launch direction is more clockwise to the direction of travel from extension point to release point (more right if you watch the footage from behind.) I can't go frame by frame but that would add some more whip action, thus applying additional torque on the outside of the disc.
I find it helpful when talking about grip to show it on a transparent disc. And to mention when someone is referring to applying pressure into the flight plate vs into the rim.
To me it looks like his core strength and technique with his core are what is doing it. You should have him not tighten his core as he throws and I bet it drops significantly.
Might there be a correlation in the way of hand size?
I get 1600+ rpms and I could be wrong, but I think that it largely depends on how long you keep your wrist cocked. That seems to be what Thomas Gilbert, Garret Gurthie and Zach all have in common, especially compared to somone like Ezra Aderhold who has a lower spin rate. I also think the being open at release thing matters because the longer you can rotate whilst keeping your wrist cocked, the more potential energy will build up.
WOW! This is so sick!
Josh, i hope you see this. I've been thinking a lot about what would cause spin to be higher or lower since this video came out, and i wanted to come up with a solid hypothesis before commenting which is why I'm late.
Physics tells us that spin is caused by torque, which is rotational acceleration caused by a force. So, the first question I think of is when are we applying torque to the disc? With proper form, the disc shouldn't rotate much except between the power pocket, and the release. So, I i think that it's that small window where all spin is created due to the torque of opening up your arm causing rotational acceleration on the disc.
But, that doesnt explain why two people throwing the same speed can have vastly different spin rates. What we have to remember is force causes acceleration, so the question to ask is where are we accelerating the disc?
We know there is rotational acceleration from power pocket to release, because the disc turns a corner while in our hand. This requires a force be applied to the disc. But, there is also linear acceleration that has to happen for the disc to have speed along with the spin. My hypothesis is that the largest spin is created when both the linear acceleration and the rotational acceleration happen at the same time.
Zach said that his focus is on pushing out the elbow, helping him reach the power pocket (BlitzDG and NickKrush do something very similar as well). Pushing the elbow out is not a quick linear acceleration movement. I think most of Zach's linear acceleration happens between power pocket and release, which is why he looks so relaxed in his form until he absolutely explodes at the very last second. If you watch the disc, it's moving pretty slow into the pocket, and then has an insane force and acceleration applied from pocket to release.
My hypothesis is most disc golfers apply linear acceleration earlier than Zach does, which means there's less linear acceleration and thus less force between power pocket and release, meaning less torque and less spin but with the same speed. As has been noted, this does mean a strong grip is needed to apply that much torque, which Zach clearly has.
If my hypothesis is correct, increasing spin should be accomplished by not pulling with the arm at all, and focusing on a clean power pocket with the shoulder down and elbow pushed out, and allowing an explosive linear and rotational force from power pocket to release.
Old Tristan Tanner form vibes. I think he gets so much spin from the insane flexibility and range of motion on his coil and release. 18:18 his upper body is pointing 45 degrees-ish right while his hips are facing 45 degrees-ish left. He's coiled as deeply as a human body can get. Then at 18:20 his right arm is as left as can be. I'd have a shoulder tear. It's not surprising, then, that the rate at which he rotates from peak coil to peak arm follow through that he's able to generate that much spin.
Bad news for all of us regular humans is we can't really replicate it
Edit: Just tried the Zach Nash form and squeezed the crap out of my disc and was consistently throwing 62-63mph average (up from 59). Spin went down from a 1200 rpm average to 1150
Just jaw-dropping stats. Can I get half spin on mine throws please :D
Okay, after thinking about it, most of the spin is done with the subtlest fine motor skills in the hand and the wrist. This is implied by the fact that whatever Zach tries to alter in his form, the results stay pretty much on the same level. He can't have a lousy spin even if he wants to since most of the alterations happen very noticeably, like the swing path and the grip. We can't see what happens in the fine motor units, which he can't control consciously, which move naturally at this point; at the last fraction of a second, the disc releases.
I mean... We all had a big wobble when we first learned the backhand, right? I know I did, especially in putting. After a while, I discovered the smooth release. After years of throwing somewhat correctly, I won't get noticeable changes no matter what I change in my form or grip. For instance, I never get wobble on purpose, only accidentally. And nowadays, I really have to make the disc wobble in putting to get the result I wanted.
I don't know why Zach has the spin he has, but I'm sure he can't have much less of it unless he relearns some habits that, at this point, don't feel natural to him. And that would, of course, be detrimental to his game.
His form reminds me of Tristan tanner. I have no idea on his spin rate, but I’d bet it’s really high as well.
Another great video. Can you please do an analysis of Luke Taylor’s drives? His run up is short, slow, and looks effortless with long distance
Leaving on a cliffhanger???? lol You guys gotta crack this, , i'm stuck throwing 70mph at 700 rpms ,and I have no clue where to begin.
Man I am about 60 and 600. No idea how I generate so little spin. It's a special skill.
What I see is he is curling the disc even he was telling to he try keep wrist straight as possible. Can be seen in slomotion and would be even clear if there would be view on top (drone) like you guys did with Gannon few years ago. I think its natural to curl disc, because center mass of the disc is more towards to body, so wrist has to curl when accelerating disc (at 80 mph it would otherwise slip out too soon).
I think something I have noticed with high spin guys in slow motion is that there is a substantial late acceleration. No matter how he changed the grip and reach back, once he was slotted from the extension to the hit, the acceleration looks like a steep curve where it is like a slow jog to maximum sprint in an instant. Some grips may have not let him hit when he wanted but fundamentally, the late acceleration still created a high spin rate. Imagine holding a disc with a max extended arm and sitting on a spin-able seat. You never tuck arm. Over several revolutions you reach what would be 70 mph (or any other arbitrary number) and the disc ejects from your hand. The other scenario is like the back hand where as you extend, you begin to move the disc in and accelerate the elbow forward maxing the acceleration in last 10% of t movement. As you brace, the body rotates opening the last lever with the disc ejecting at 70 mph (arbitrary number but same speed as other throw). One has spin (throw 2) and the other is still at 70 mph close to a knuckle ball level of spin because it came from rounded acceleration where the disc wouldn’t have been tucked. Another way to imagine is spinning in a circle like a hammer thrower. The weight on end is released out with no spin. If you had a sledgehammer on a short handle, you could probably slowly spin like you were doing a hammer or weight throw and compare to if you hold it like a disc and spin and brace where the hammer handle would go from the front to the back adding rotation at release. This picture isn’t as easy to paint with words as a visual would be. For those that are billiard players, you know to draw the ball, you have to be accelerating through contact. If you are at max acceleration from the start of movement, there will be less spin a miscue probably vaulting the ball off the table. Someone acknowledged how smooth and effortless he appears. I think that is what is making it happen is a good use of delayed acceleration so that the hand gets moving super fast by the ripping of the disc from the grip.
I would also be curious how long his forearm is relative to his upper arm. I also wonder if he has relatively large hands relative to his height. I think longer end levers relative to early levers create more spin potential by maximizing late acceleration.
He looks like he has a long wingspan for his height, josh isnt much shorter but the arm length is noticeable. And look how much his arm is around the disc leading to the release. He's like a trebuchet and his timing is incredible
Might be worth looking at forearm length as a factor for spin. I would expect that for two players who throw the same speed, the one with shorter forearms has higher spin. This is because the length of the forearm is the radius at which the disc rotates as it swings out of the pocket, and a smaller radius requires a higher angular velocity to generate the same tangential linear velocity.
His timing is pretty amazing. As is his form. On the rear view, look at his chest rotation, in relation to the brace. His chest is still rotating backwards (counterclockwise from above) when his foot contacts. He allows his body momentum to keep moving forward at this time. When his front foot starts taking weight, his off hand punch has begun, and he begins to rotate his chest. You can also note at this time, he has about a 110 degree angle on his front leg, but is straight about 12 frames later.
Dude seems funny as fuck.
This makes me just want to quit. I break 1100 and I feel proud of myself LOL. Can you show his disk line in his backswing? LOOKS like a "J" shape reach back. Also, He may think he's locking his wrist, but he is super coiling his wrist at the 18:19 point of the video. His elbow being so much higher than his wrist makes for a really long whip. What a BEAST!!.
Yay y'all took my video suggestion 🎉
I would check out his grip at the release. Sometimes I feel that my pressure loosens up towards the hit. Maybe he is able to keep pressure on at this point to release, where other players are lessening their grip.
Disc RPM = Moment arm RPM, always. Except for losses caused by imperfections (like our fingers being in the way of the disc instead of just instantly disappearing when the disc "wants" to exit). Assuming an average distance driver with 21.1cm diameter, the circumference is 66.254cm. A spin of 1700 RPM is "only" a rotational speed of 18.77m/s, or 42mph.
If the launch speed of the disc is 70mph and the spin only accounts for 42 of those, we will have to make some generalizations with regards to spin lost to release imperfections etc. If the disc *is* released perfectly and still only rotates at 1700RPM, then the circle along a sector of which the moment arm is travelling would have to have a circumference about 35% larger than a normal distance driver.
My theory therefore; Bracing with a front-leg-push, which can make the upper body travel backwards slightly even in the runup, should, in theory, have an enormous effect on spin, because it makes the throwing arm describe a much smaller circle, which will give higher spin relative to launch speed. Also, probably, modifying the grip to be as "clean" in the release moment as possible while still being strong enough to withstand the high G-forces associated with moving quickly and altering the direction will obviously also positively impact the spin rate, but also the launch speed. Your idea of "one side pulling while the other one is trying to get forward" would slow the disc down enormously. I just doesn't track with observed reality.
Zach pulling the disc from far out in front of him actually gives a good advantage here. It's a bit like a formula 1 car turning a corner really fast by swinging wide then cuttin in, while rounding and "falling over the brace" makes the arm describe an enormous circle and also tends to have really shitty spin.
A couple of things I noticed, that would be worth looking at that I haven't seen mentioned elsewhere:
1.When his disc is in the pocket, his hand kind of wraps around the back of the disc (you can kind of see his wrist breaking in toward his chest around 18:18).
2.Watching the end credits, his hands are huge compared to yours while you're about the same height and that might contribute further to this.
I think the test would be to throw a disc with just your arm, one with your wrist cocked and another with your wrist in line with your forearm.
I think we need to incorporate some physical stats. Like if he has an insane ape index, long fingers, hyper mobile shoulders, etc. it could be correlated with that.
It seems like grip strength allows you to tailor your form to increase speed and spin. Without the pressure against the disc from your grip you can't apply the force to release the disc
This is such a curious problem. Can we see some footage of directly above or below a throw? Looking along the spin axle should show how the disc moves laterally relative to the force applied. I feel from that position you would be able to see the disc actually being turned in the hand during the throw
I’d recently started backloading my grip (tried to match my grip to eagle and buckets) like he’s explaining and I feel like it helped my distance. I didn’t tech disc it unfortunately.
It would be interesting to see leverage lengths. Larger ape index, longer forearm vs upper arm, and maybe longer wrist and hands. Seeing the different players compared in this way might give some insights. It would be also fun just as a player statistic at least for Ape Index.
Hey! I happened to be making form changes that mainly affected my spin and consistency recently. I found i had anterior pelvic tilt and a very slight hunch in the shoulders/chest. I went from averaging around 1225 rpms to getting up to 1350-1400. My top speed generally remained the same (69/70) but my brace was more consistent due to my spine being aligned. I would definitely suggest hunching a lot, a little and not at all, and then do the same with pelvic tilt way back, slightly back, and forward/directly under you. And then combine the two.
To throw it back at you, even though i found these posture changes to make huge differences in my spin, it didnt change my forehand spin almost at all. I have friend that throw forehands 10 mph slower but have 100 more rpms than me. I can throw 66-69 mph forehands but i cant get my spin over 750 (unless im really focusing on just spin, then im throwing much much slower). It'd be fun to see some spin testing on forehands!
P.S. fixing my posture also made my 360s actually have a higher speed than my normal runups for the first time ever, however, the spin never reached 1400 while doing so.
Noted!
This is what is so frustrating about form ideas to me. You'll have people teach you to use as light of a grip as you can without losing control. They you have Zach who says "grip it hard". It clearly works for Zach. Does that mean it will work for me? I guess only one way to find out...
I would have been curious to see what his numbers looked like from a stand still or one leg drill. He has insane speed during the final plant/release. You can really tell when he goes for the 80 mph throw. That plant/uncoil is very aggressive.
Well, guys it's not what we can see that creates all that spin. Yes, good form can take us to new heights, but, why can some sprinters out sprint another ?? FAST TWITCH fiber muscles, we either got boings or we don't, or, we have a little lol ... love the content and Nash can Smash ! :)
This is some very interesting stuff.
My thoughts: the throw is way more autonomic than we believe. I think some of these guys that just absolutely bomb got kinda lucky in a way.
Everyone talks about the timing being the most important part of the throw. When you consider the hundreds of muscles that are innervated by hundreds of nerves, it seems impossible to train everyone neural pathway to fire at the perfect time. The minute milliseconds of difference can make a drastic difference when it is compounded by all the other pathways that are trying to work in sync.
Why do I say they may have gotten kinda lucky? Well, they may have just hit the right sequence early on when drilling in their form. Because once that movement becomes more automatic, it starts to be controlled by the spine. The neural triggers are no longer even controlled by the brain. Now imagine changing all these tiny, precise movements after it has already become an automated motion.
I think this video is evidence of this, too. You are trying to get him to change all these things, but the results aren't changing. He can't change the timing his muscles are firing in at this point. It's automatic.
I've struggled with getting any real change in my tech disc numbers. I can do wild things like pretend im throwing a spinning back fist and hit the exact same numbers i do with my standard form.
I think the only way to truly change would be to quit throwing for a long time until your body loses muscle memory. And by change, I mean get these drastically higher numbers.
Of course, working on your form is still very beneficial for maximizing what you have. Any healthy guy should be able to hit 400+, but that 200ft more these guys get just probably won't ever happen no matter how perfect your form looks on camera.
Back in the early 2000's in the old DGR days, Blake relayed a tip he got from a pro at the time where he was told to pull back on the disc at the hit similar to what you describe in the vid. Back then, too, the thinking was that throwers should be more faced up at the hit. Not sure the facing-up thinking aged well, but pulling back on the disc would be interesting to experiment with
So, what about measuring lever points. Shoulder to elbow, elbow to wrist. Does he have whiplash from a 'perfect' combination of levers? Could there be a correlation to twisting speed of his shoulders, and at what angle his shoulders are at release compared to direction of release? Finally, you almost hit on this on one of your attempts, but, does he lose spin if he threw from his pull back point? That is, no shoulder twist from pull back, just movement at driving shoulder and elbow.
Great video! He made your requests for modifications look so easy. Thanks
Here’s my guess as to why it works. Wrist flexion. Deep power pocket causes you to cup your wrist which is movement your body uses to hold onto something. Keeping arm out he’s cupping less or holding on less
Just a thought on what generates the spin it's due to deceleration. As you move up the kinetic chain each piece before it decelerates, if you finish more open to the target there's a good chance that you maintained acceleration longer into the throw and really decelerate the hands/arm closer to the moment of impact/release. It doesn't necessarily translate directly into disc speed but it would have a pretty high corrilation with spin since the last bit of deceleration is right on the rim of the disc at release.
If you wanted him change spin have him accelerate his arm earlier in the throw so that it's at speed/decelerating longer or later for the opposite effect.
Man has calves as big as my head.
My personal theory is that a lot of the spin comes from how efficienly you are able to accelerate the throw in the pocket. Like staying loose and pulling "slowly" into the pocket and THEN hitting all the accelerators. To do that efficiently you NEED a strong core. Could be that all the lanky mofos out there just dont have that pure explosive core, they just turn on the power a tad earlier to make sure the disc goes super fast rather than super spinny?
It looks to me like his arm swing is very similar to the disc throwing algorithm that sketches for humanities program came up with for the most efficient way to throw a disc like object.
My favorite part about disc golf is that we're still figuring it out.
I think distance to the net is way too short. A meter more would almost double the amount of time the techdisc can interpolate the measurements.
Per Michael Sizemore from Tech Disc: "The TechDisc measures data for about 20 ms after release. That comes out to less than 2 feet for most people and less than 3 feet for the fastest throwers. We typically recommend 3 feet of free flight to be safe." So yeah a meter would be sufficient. 🙂
If I hit 900 I'm super lucky, crazy!
1:48, you both have your arms extended and man his arms look crazy long especially from the elbow to the wrist or maybe the lens is distorting it. Start measuring people’s arms. Lol
Awesome vid! Insane to easily throw over 70 mph with that much spin.
Does Nash essentially hunch his shoulders forward and artificially increase the length of his upper arm giving him more leverage?
This is a possibility
@@lukevaichus 100% he does. Protraction of the scapula - he does it with that early straight arm motion that gets the disc, hand and most importantly elbow as far away from his body as possible
Check his grip with a pressure meter
Engagement engagement engagement achieved
Might be time for an over the top slo mo here.
I would love to see motion capture of his throw like i believe Dr Kwon and coach chris did with other pros!
I've also seen goose doing 3 finger power grip sometimes