Are Dota Games Too Long? - Problems with Patch 7.35d
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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Problems with Patch 7.35d
My hero guides are mainly for people learning how to play Dota or for those who want to learn how to play a new hero. I aim to teach people the general concept of how the hero should be played and what makes it unique. I'm a Divine player around 5k and don't claim to be the best at Dota, but I do have enough knowledge and experience to help you learn the basics.
I hope you enjoy the guide.
Outro Music: Lakey Inspired - Better Days
Before the map changes, if your carry had a bad game, it usually meant both supports and the offlane had to sacrifice everything to give the carry space. Carries that struggled uses to have to go take farm from their offlaner. Id hate to go back to a game where the only hero allowed to build items and have farm is the carry.
The problem is that takes away a lot of the strategy. At a certain point, the laning stage becomes a tedious and pointless exercise because after 20-30 min everyone has farm anyway. At that point, you might as well be playing some kind of totally different brawler type of game like overthrow or turbo mode.
@@shade4718 It's not a skill issue, it's literally the patch. The pros are playing the exact same way I describe and are not going high ground for nearly 30 min even if they have a 10k-15k gold lead early. Like I said in another comment. You have to be so far ahead that you have the resources to fully team wipe them twice in order to take rax due to the glyphs and short spawn timers before 30 min. The base is simply not being taken before 30 min unless there is some intentional throwing/feeding/quitting by the enemy.
And again, you're describing the way dota used to be, not how dota is now. You cannot choke out the map in dota anymore. Farming is easier than it's ever been in dota, there is literally no skill or map awareness involved in comparison to before. The losing team cores will find farm no matter what the winning team tries to do. The map is so big that if you waste your time running around trying to find the enemy farming you're going to lose your gold lead in a matter of minutes.
No, it’s not just a skill issue. If a team loses early and mid game just give them Zeus drow sniper (which is seen in like every game) and just sit high ground with refreshing glyphs and just stall the game out eventually items will come. Like congrats for outplaying this team for 30 min now have fun with this high ground defense that’s stronger than it’s ever been. Oh and by the way when you do finally win a fight highground they can just press glyph after every tower you take and then they’re back up again. Makes for a very fun gameplay experience for sure. Also they added that Rohan’s banner which I thought would help push high ground but it seems to do absolutely nothing 😂
@shade4718 You’re not even arguing the point lol. No one is saying these early game cheese heroes don’t exist or can’t win games. We’re not even talking about anecdotal instances of specific heroes. That’s irrelevant.
It’s about the totality of general Dota now compared to before. It’s all about a comparison to the past, which you don’t seem to get. It’s okay if you’re new to Dota and don’t have anything to compare it to, that’s fine, but it seems like you may be incapable of even understanding what we are discussing.
I agree with Docwell here on this one. I have had countless wins recently because I managed to convince my team to not siege high ground at minute 21. The reward for playing well in the early game should be a quicker win.
One potential solution to the high ground issue is to have the entrance to the t3 tower and the tower itself on the same level as the lane. Then have a semi circle ramp far enough behind the tower to force the opponents to have to go to low ground to fight the creep wave and defend the tower and engage the opponents. This might help some of these instances where a sniper or other long range hero and defend high ground from the safety of the base.
Alternatively, raise the priority of creeps to target the towers in lieu of heroes when no heroes are nearby. This would help with people dragging creeps into fountain as well.
Honestly, I am more on favor of the low ground t3 tower than the latter option myself.
Recently i played ursa and got completely dicked in lane, but could ancientfarm pretty comfortably just with lvl 7 and cornucopia. This principle goes for many other carries. It sounds silly, but i kinda think its fine in some way. It lets the 4 other players have an objective to make space somehow, and the enemy team to infiltrate the triangle. To strengthen this dynamic, they could make it easier to invade the triangle somehow, making the area slightly more high-risk high reward to farm
You're describing how it used to be though. Now the other 4 players are just farming as well lol.
I might have a solution to the big map issue and the abundance of farm on the map. Add a 4th lane. If there was a top, middle left, middle right, and bot lanw, you could add another hero to the game, which would solve the issue of this abundance of gold that is allowing pos 4 to build carry. Adding a 6th player reduces the available farm on the map and the extra lane could provide more opportunities for players to engage the opponents.
Mid left could leave lane and gank mid right, bot lane could more get to mid right faster and support that lane. Mid left could gank top quicker because it's closer,
Be interested to see what people think of this.
It feels like you need to keep consistent pressure. It is not enough to just win lane, you need to win lane, take towers, keep your towers alive and box them in the limited farm.
I had yesterday game, where Slark got tripple kill on rune, he countered their offlaner heavily, so basically free game.... To have 3 items at 35 minutes and lose to PA, who got killed 5 times in lane and was forced to go jungle even before PT, but farmed BF to get huge and destroy us in the late game.
I mean it sucks sometimes. We should have closed the space better, but on replay PA actually went to our backjungle and big jungle for several minutes, when we kicked her out of triangle.
You're right, but that's the big problem. The way the game used to be is you had to keep up the pressure when you had an advantage. You basically can no longer do that because half of putting pressure is closing off the map and that's almost impossible. If a few heroes take a minute or two to run around the map hunting and they don't find anyone because of how big the map is, that's a ton of gold and experience down the drain when they could have instead just afk farmed.
In the past it was pretty simple to find the carry farming because there weren't too many places to go on the map. So, if they wanted to have space to farm they needed to get pretty creative to avoid getting ganked.
Couldn’t agree more. I mostly play offlane and it’s so frustrating when enemy carry is shut down in the laning phase and it just doesn’t matter at all anymore. Just seems that once you take all tier 2 towers and next step is high ground the game just goes to a standstill. Hope it changes with crownfall but I try to keep low expectations with patches anymore.
Solution? Pick carrying the offlane lol. It’s funny but this has become more of the meta these days. I’ve seen slarks and ursa in the offlane even and it doesn’t even feel like that bad of a grief.
It is very annoying that this is the state of the game though. I hope they fix it.
@@Docwell i disagree at some levels with you. I too play offlane. New patch has grown on me. Slight difference and tweaks are there on item build and space management etc. A fast tempo lineup with the right items can still end early. Eg supports getting solar early helps push up to tier 3s easy. But yeah u have to build for the long game. Only complain i have are the pharasma interactions with someone like an OD or puck septer ulti interaction with just one item they hit like a truck but thats just nitpicking. Overall the patch has been fine. Just need adaptation. Of we just want to play what we are comfortable with then whats the point, your brain on autopilot isn't something I want.
@@nitinshooter The problem is if the first 20 minutes are trivialized in 90% of games then that's just 20 minutes of 10 people's time wasted for no real reason and it also makes the game less strategic and more like some brawler custom mode.
This feels so so true! I just picked up dota 2 months ago. I played HoN for 10years before - almost till it shut down. In fact I googled this exact video title a few days ago to see what people wrote on reddit. In HoN as far as I remember you get smoked as a carry on lane and you are done.. riding 200-300gpm the whole game 300+gpm being a success. Dota at least today is so much different crazy GPM for everyone and me and my friend playing pubs just count how many carries per each team to decide who wins before the game even started. I often get fucked on lane still and then... just take it ez farming for 20 min and come out winning the game. I also did the slark offlane last night hahah and destroyed them. It just seems weird because if you can hold off the other team from pushing and you have more carries on your team you just win. So my gameplay just turned into - pick carry, win/fail laning stage, farm and split for 20 min and then end the game. I barely have a game that is sub 40 min long however. I thought it was me farming too slow or not joining fights on time that delays the game but your video explains my experience very well. The Glyphs are super annoying. You just win the teamfight of your life and all you can do is push a Tier 2 tower as 5??? That's just mad.
P.s. I've also had multiple 60+ min games in these past 2 months. We are not doing fine early and mid game, the whole team is feeding but the enemy couldn't manage to push so eventually we just destroy them cause of carry picks. I get some satisfaction in making a comeback but sometimes it's just unfair. Furthermore, it really sucks to spend 40-45min on average per game. Feels like such a time sink.
It's gotten a lot worse in the last few years in terms of power creep. I'm really not a fan of the bigger map and feeling like it's almost 5 carries vs 5 carries. It has taken a lot of the nuance out of the game. If it gets really bad I wouldn't be surprised if sometime down the road another dota clone comes along trying to recapture what has been lost.
I don’t understand these comments - I’m an 8.5k average player and I completely agree with your points. The games are far too hard to end. While sometimes it does make watching pro games more fun as comebacks have become more common, the games are just too long because high ground is impossible to break unless you kill all 5 enemies without buybacks, and carries can almost never be punished. Midlane is a complete disaster in terms of how important it is to win your matchup. While the new objectives are cool, (tormentor and wisdom tune) the map is just too big and glyph refreshes are a HUGE problem.
Thanks for the perspective. To be fair to people, I think the newer or lower ranked player is going to have a hard time comparing how it is now to how it was years ago. So I think they are misunderstanding that I’m advocating for way quicker games where there isn’t a comeback mechanic.
There just needs to be a good balance between how important the various phases are, and right now it might be as imbalanced as ever in this aspect of the game.
I play divine low immortal bracket and laning stage definitely matters. rarely do my games goto 50 minute's maybe once a week average game time is around 35 for me
I think the problem about winning laning stage is closing the map out and hunting their cores in the jungle which people just dont do so its easy to comeback, lower brackets let cores farm back in way too much
The higher mmr the game, the more the lane matters. However, the lane is more pointless than it’s ever been in the history of Dota.
And even in 5k you’re going to have a very very hard time restricting the enemy core’s farm no matter how well you stomp the lanes unless you have an ultra aggressive lineup and everyone is on the same page. There’s a reason we have carry 4 positions. There’s more farm on the map and games are lasting longer than almost ever in history.
@Docwell I'd say from a professional perspective this is correct but for our general dogshit tilt heavy pubs I rarely see this problem, unless they have aoe wave clear and a sniper then it takes forever to end a easy game
@@CSSdelvzy I see it basically every single game. One lane is a stomp and the core that got stomped ends up having insane farm at 30 min because they basically were forced to do nothing but farm. And in the end it actually benefited them to get stomped because there was absolutely no pressure to do anything else other than hit creeps since it's so hard to push. This is just bad design and bad incentives.
Also, it is almost impossible to push base before 30 min if you kill them out on the map because they will all be alive by the time glyphs are used based on death timers at that moment in the game. You have to be so far ahead that you have the resources to essentially team wipe them twice back to back. So, games are essentially forced to go 40 min or more.
@Docwell I see the issue with glyphs and breaking high ground, and it needs to be addressed.
Being able to receed into jungle and farm is good as the pos1 and should be an option, more often than not I have nyx or veno on my team just invading and controlling the edges of the map making the carries venture into jungle very hard.
Anecdotally, all I can say is in my past 20 games, 4 have gone past 40 minutes.
I don't see the issue as often as you but my evidence is Anecdotal, I hate how the glyphs refresh it is dumb as shit and even megas don't mean shit now, they need to make megas unable to be slowed or stunned and they run straight to throne when they enter high ground ignoring other creeps and heroes, just to help the issue with breaking high ground even more, and make super creeps stronger in that regard aswel.
Anyway, that's my hot take.
I agree with most of what you said there. I think the overall point is if the game ends in 35 min I would rather that be due to strategic decisions that have compounded from the lane rather than what feels like everyone just farming for 30 min then getting into a few team fights and the game ending. That’s more like league of legends or some other more casual game. Dota has always been unique because of the level of complexity and strategy in the game. So I don’t think removing that is good for the game.
I love current dota, I am good, thanks
I still don’t understand why they don’t have surrender feature
Shhhh don't tell anyone...but I agree.
need ranked turbo 100% or ranked 1v1 mid
Would be funny but they probably don't want to fracture the player base. It already takes long enough to find games in some brackets.
I think doubling the glyph cooldown or removing the glyph refresh after taking the first tower of a new tier are the biggest problem
Removing that refresh would be great.
I don't really agree with any of this. On the contrary, it feels like the game snowballs too much and a team can have an insurmountable lead by minute 9 or 10- but can't close it out officially until minute 40
"Can’t close it out" is the point. If you have a giant lead then the game should end.
You can have a large lead and the game still takes long to end. The leading team still wins by just playing safe and farming though.
Yes, we agree but my objection is that the game can be decided in under ten minutes, not that it takes 40 to officially complete
@@Redragonclaws In the past there was risk reward to the laning stage. And if you lost it you could come back but it would take strategy and execution. Maybe sacrifing yourself for the carry to farm and make you come back. Or as a carry trying to sneak as much farm from the map as possible.
Now, everyone just free farms no problem. There's really no risk or strategy involved.
I like your takes, I enjoy your videos and I think what you're saying has a lot of merit and it is true but I disagree in the sense that it doesn't make the game worse in my opinion and there's a different angle to look at it that might convince you but it's a very long topic tbh.
Personally I like the game being hard to end and I like it being able to range from 20 min gg to a 1 hour + slugfest, in my opinion that's the beauty of Dota.
And I don't think that the first 20 minutes are pointless, it's just people playing carelessly get punished for throwing their advantage which I do like.
I like the approach where you have to work extra hard in the beginning for a small advantage so you can build on top of it. BUT if you throw you get back to square 0. Idk I like that.
I do however agree that the pos 4s building carry ruin the fun, that should be more difficult to do. (Mainly because lategame instead of a lot of utility people just stack dmg even on supports and try to outDPS eachother which I don't find as fun as a more balanced mix between Utility role and DMG roles)
But that has more to do with the new League-esque approach to design that they have where a hero that can scale also has a ton of utility in their kit. (Muerta, Mk, Hoodwink, Dawn, Tusk, Marci, Snapfire, New Bounty Aghs and stuff)... I don't like it but it is safe to say it's here to stay and moving forward.
ANYWAYS I think this is a great vid where you share your thoughts on random stuff, you should probably do more of these. They're pretty engaging.
I think the wide range is good too, but it’s just too far on the longer end right now where there’s not enough of a punishment for losing lanes.
I also agree with the hero design stuff, but the other thing is simply the fact that the map is so big, there’s so much farm, and games last so long that a 4 position can afford to go first item maelstrom and it’s not a grief lol. At that point things have kinda gotten out of control. But who knows, maybe this is how they want Dota to be moving forward.
Also thanks, hopefully I’ll do more of these in the future.
i for one think highground should be hard and glyphs should be there , because otherwise one bad teamfight and the game ends like a roll of a dice. With glyphs as a backup i see that the deserving team or the team that is ahead ends up almost always winning games
I definitely agree that highground should be hard but it’s way overtuned right now to the point where if they have a Zeus, Drow, Sniper (who are all commonly seen right now) you just have to wait until you have significantly more farm than them and even then it’s difficult with all the glyphs. Whenever you outplay a team through the laning stage and through the mid game just to run into this impossible high ground defense (if they have the hero’s for it) just makes for a bad gameplay experience in my opinion.
But shouldnt It be part of winning to maintain the space ahead? Otherwise picking heroes would only consider winning early game
High ground has always been hard. The difference now is it’s harder than almost ever in history. Combine that with a big map and a lot of the strategy has been sucked out of the game.
Also, in the past picking an early game team had positives and negatives because if you didn’t capitalize and snowball you would lose late, so it was risk reward. Now there is essentially no incentive to pick an early game team.
In this patch I can absolutely stomp Luna in the lane, and after a couple of minutes that she's not being ganked, she ends up being 3 or 4 levels ahead of me, wether I decide to farm or go and kill enemies like crazy, one bad fight and we lost 2 towers if not our Barracks. Same goes with Sven and Morphling, is way easier to farm withour getting caught.
Yeah there’s just too much room on the map. Fast farmers will catch up quickly and it’s very hard to hunt them down.
I got the same problem with AM, i stomp the lane, zone him, he dies.
we can't finish the game and after some jungling he solos the game....
That's kinda frustrating.
@@giuseppelovecchio3597 Yeah, in the past he would have to split push and risk dying. Now, he just disappears and comes back with 4 items at least lol.
I have recenlty got back into dota and I have felt this most games. I have had multiple games in the last few days where I absolutly lost my team the laning stage and we still came back to win. And ive also had games coming out of lane 5 and 0 on axe still losing to the FV i bodied for the first 15 min
Yup, kill carry 10 times in first 10 minutes. Then you never see him on your map again for till min 35 and he has 5 items lol
I think other roles especially support getting more farm is good for dota
But gliph should be on a 5min cd with no Refresh
The problem is if every hero gets farm no matter what then it trivializes the laning stage. The game just becomes more of a brawler rather than a game of strategy.
@@Docwell even though it trivialses the laning stage a little bit, the be all and end all of the game shouldnt be the lane, that's what makes bad Dota players just give up and break their items or go afk, because they know there is no way to come back
It's good people always know there's a way to win, winning the lane just gives you the advantage, like going 1-0 up in football, going 1-0 shouldn't mean you're assured to win the game
It's not fair to lose lane and all of a sudden you can't access the map what so ever and the enemy team snowballs leads into easy wins, if that's the case everyone will just play lane dominators and snowball comps, Dota does need to make alot of changes balance wise but supports with gold was a good move (mid player)
@@xtranormalCARTOONS88 Having come back mechanics are good, but that has always been the case in dota. All segments of the game mattered equally.
Now, the lane matters less than it ever does. You can literally kill a carry 6 or 7 times in the first 10 min and it has almost ZERO impact on his farm at 30+ min because the map is so big and it's impossible to high ground.
In the past, laning was important to get off to a good start and your trajectory in the game was based on your performance in lane. Now, the lane really doesn't have a purpose because recovery will happen every game no matter what. In the past, you had to take risks to come back. Now, there are no risks. Just jungle for 20 min ez farm.
I think buffing Roshan ( giving buffs to creep ) and delaying Roshan spawn timing
Changing rosh could help but I don't know if it will fully fix the problems.
One more Doc video and Valve will drop Crownfall early
For sure lol. Probably next week.
Wow I used to liked the state of the game, but now seeing and realizing all these topics, u are correct and I wanna a change for yesterday
As someone who only started playing DotA 2 since the jungle changes I personally really enjoy the “””anti-snowball””” effect of having a large jungle to come back with. Hero picks can go a long way to ending the game quickly if that is the playstyle you enjoy but for me I much prefer games with strong comeback mechanics to snowbally ones a la League of Legends.
Here’s the thing, Dota is actually trending more towards league style where the strategy is less important and it’s all about farming up to one big fight.
I don’t think anyone wants a game where there’s no comeback mechanic, but at the same time there has to be some risk reward for the laning and early game. It’s more annoying when everyone gets their farm no matter what.
Make Roshan's banner spawn Roshan, fuck it go the league method and just make him a herald. Have him bypass glyphs too. Now you aren’t completely locked in base if you lose and on the flip side you aren't stuck chipping away at a base while the enemy team turtles up. Win win.
That’s would be funny for sure, just spawn Roshan down a lane lol
Never liked the new map
I don't hate it, but yeah it just seems like a gimmick that takes a lot of the strategy out of the game.
Glyphs are such a huge problem, well said. The doc is in
For me, the new map design is more for Turbo gameplay. In my experience playing turbo, having more neutrals to farm is the best way to get fast money. Since all of the players, starts farming like crazy at min 3 or 4 onwards (sometimes you still run out of neutrals). Then getting gold fast, getting good items suit for your hero of choice forces players to be more aggressive, clashing often. With the bigger map, players can use it to paly defensively. I like your take with the Glyphs, indeed, its too many.
Yeah, the new patch is really just about brawling since everyone gets farm there really isn't much strategy in actually farming anymore.
Are DOTA games too long? When was this ever a "no"?
Yeah spot on too many glyphs
For sure. I bet they could remove glyph completely and it would make the game way better. Even though that's extreme and not what I'd prefer, I'd still take it over the current situation.
I'd say the big problems right now are
1. Once a lead is formed, its a slow painful death due to amount of farm available and how hard it is to go high ground.
2. Mid has become unfun, too risky to pick anything other than Sniper or Zeus because of how important the win is
3. No meaningful comeback mechanic once your losing
I think the patch can be solved with
1. Making it harder to dive mid towers + buff armour and health regen from mid tower.
2. Input some all or nothing mechanic where a losing team can essentially make a play to go even or they just simply loose.
The problem with mid are the runes. There's just no risk anymore because every hero buys bottle and has full hp/mana after min 2 unless they are getting absolutely stomped for some reason.
Games are definitely taking too long. But I like the way current dota is with farming.