Thanks for the shoutout in the video for me and Grand Sumo Breakdown. I cannot believe the audacity the banzuke committee had in keeping two 6-9 rikishi at their previous rank. Unheard of in recent sumo, excluding one or two niche cases. I actually won Guess the Banzuke this basho for the first time and reclaimed my spot at the top of the overall rankings. If you're going to look for other predictions to review before turning yours in, you could do a lot worse. 😉
@@reesie89 Ichiyamamoto had his rank frozen in Aki of 2022 after starting 6-3, but then getting pulled due to Covid. His final record would effectively be 6-9, but because rikishi that were pulled due to Covid had their rank frozen if they had not already achieved a Kachi Koshi or Make Koshi, that case really doesn't count. Another case was back in Natsu 2011. This was the first basho back after the Haru basho was cancelled due to the match fixing scandal. There were many rikishi on the banzuke that were forced to retire because of the scandal, so because of that a lot of weird promotions and demotions had to be made, and one was to keep a 6-9 rikishi at his previous rank. Prior to those two cases, the last time a rikishi kept his exact rank after a 6-9 record was in 1967.
Somehow managed to go 8-7 on this one and I couldn't be happier. What an absolute nightmare. Didn't expect to see a first-time-ever occurrence for my first GTB for sure.... Thank you for all your help in getting me in to this, I love your videos and these were always my favorite.
in response to Hokotofuji, I only found 1 instance since 1948 of a 13e going 6-9 not moving. ichiyamamoto went 6-3-6 in July 2022(which may have been that crazy covid basho where half the field went down). The only one at any rank I could find since the 60s was Tochinonada at M14 at Natsu 2011, which again had very strange circumstances as that was the basho where 6 guys went intai in makuuchi following the match-fixing scandal, so they didn't have a choice.
The fact that they didn't demote THREE 6-9 guys beyond 1 rank is the wackest thing I've ever seen. They demoted mita half a rank to give oho a full rank over promotion is such a slap in the face too.
It's not even about Oho, really. The fact they felt compelled to make Mitakeumi eat that half-rank, but then-for no good reason-allowed Ura to drop only a half-rank on 6-9 just a few ranks down is not chill. You know I want the best for my boy Ura, but even with that permanent halo of goodness surrounding him, this placement was too kind. Or brutal if a few injuries send him into a bunch of sanyaku fights *again*.
your shocked bewilderment made me smile through the entire video. great job! what's the link for the "Guess the Banzuke" game? i didnt see it in the description, nor your prior video when you explained your picks
The entry form was linked in the Guess the Banzuke video, but here's a more useful link, with standings, entry form, helper, etc.: www.dichne.com/Guess.htm
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill 🤣🤣 it’s tough when you’re in a frenzy, my old accent comes out whenever I get riled up lol. Just feels better to vent in one way over another, I suppose haha. Anyway, still banging content, brother 👍
Banzuke Committee: Nishikifuji was mathematically the wrestler with the best record to earn that m17 slot. Spiffy : ?????? wtf wtf wtf 😂. I agree with you Spiffy anyway. The optics are terrible. More wrestlers kept rank with a 6-9 record compared to wrestlers with a 7-8 record. Also, by limiting maegashira big promotions and at the same time, demoting fully non competiting wrestlers makes sumo more predetermined imo. Sumo wrestlers know their place and will try less in bouts because they will not be rewarded. Also, they must not be injured or else they will be the fall guy. Cannot wait for all the lacklustre bouts next basho.
I'm of mixed opinion. On one hand I did amazing this banzuke but on the other hand Nishikifuji getting the last spot over Onosho, or Chiyoshoma, or even Tamashoho is just criminal! The worst decision they possibly could have made! And it's crazy that you haven't heard of GSB's banzuke podcasts before when you're a top player! There's like 5 top players who share their banzuke guesses now, it's so much easier for a newbie to get into this stuff. For my own take, this has been is the most joi and makuuchi bias we have seen in a banzuke in a long while. I've been mathpilling pretty hard so that scares me a bit! CaptSmarta$$, the guy that tied with Goshobiyama, was telling me that Shirokuma would be M16. I had him at M14W because I wanted to "play it safe" and make a pick that would be good if he got ranked high or low and I still think that was a smart pick on my part, but those guys had some insane foresight predicting Shirokuma like that! Let me tell you Spiffy, getting drunk is the best way to enter the mind of the banzuke makers. I speak from experience. I've seen 6-9 stay in place before, but only in juryo! Never before in makuuchi! This banzuke is so weird I might just forget about it and stick to my guns next basho hoping it's a one-off.
I originally had Nishikifuji at M17. My reasoning: of all the guys we're contemplating leaving in that last slot, he had the most wins. Unfortunately I let others talk me out of it!
Definitely not suggesting that all the decisions were made based on this but I always felt like some ranking decisions for guys with losing record could be affected by how they lost or how competitive they were with strong rikishi that finished with good records. Just as a less controversial example would be how besides terunofujis loses Ura put up the best bout with him despite losing. Not sure how matches like that should be taken into account but I’m sure it does in some way.
Is there a lot of political activity going on during banzuke committee meeting? Or is it like group of guys drinking hours before Fantasy football draft? Not sure why rikishi with 6-9 record stayed at same rank
Oof, I can't say I don't enjoy a video where Spiffy gets his feathers ruffled ;). No freaking idea what happened in there either. Were they so impressed by Ura vs Teru? Did Waka shikona upset the elders and made them fumble words during the drunk discussion? Hokutofuji 6/9 remarked as nice by elders and we move on? We will never know, but thanks for the entertaining video anyway!
Wow, Takayasu went way down the Banzuke. Then again, he has been injured a lot, and has missed significant chunks of the last two basho, so it really shouldn't surprise me.
Geez! So if Onosho dropped out sooner, could he have dropped to M17 from M5, and stayed in Makuuchi? Instead of J1? Takayasu went 0-2-12, and dropped to M15 from M3🙄 im sad and mad. Seems like favoritism going on behind closed doors and there is zero Accountability for those making the decisions and they dont owe us any explanation whatsoever!! And I'll stop before going off on the whole Hakuho fiasco.
I'm as shocked as you. I had very similar Sanyaku. Copied pretty much your middle, or came up with the same math. But the lower part makes me just angry. How can Nishikifuji safe rank while Onosho is getting kicked out? 👿
@@OsbornsConciseIf it was such why not chiyosoma he came back and did well .And it would have made sense when ur at last rank and u lose 6-9 not even 7-8 u r going down the divison. It's beyond my senses why they did so the guy was fighting the lowest rankers of makuuchi and had loosing record while a guy ahead of him was injured he came back and had 5-5-5 record at maegashira 15 east . Like what the hell he should have been at 17 east that's 2 rank demotion which would have made sense for 5-5 record and 5 absentees and it's not like he had absentees at last moments he came back after 5 absentees so he was gunning to go . Jeez I m pissed really it seems they r doing but if favoritism especially seeing how they treat hokutofuji which let's assume acceptable somehow .Nishkifuji of all guys even though u had chiyosoma nah that's L
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill Have you heard of a scenario where someone got promoted to Ozeki on 32 wins over 3 bashos? If Onosato goes 11-4 at Aki, he'd have 32 wins, one short of the mark, but he would have a Yusho and at least one win over Teru. Is that something the Committee has done in the past?
@@TheSpectre2300 It has happened, but I would be very surprised if 11-4 was enough to get it done here. If the run was, say, 10-10-12Y, with the strongest performance and a yusho at the end, that's the kind of run that might do it. Or 11-8-13, with one obvious rough basho but two very strong ones on either side of it. Bear in mind, they've also turned guys down with 33 and even 34 wins in the past. It goes both ways.
WoW.... FInally they have come to their senses with the banzuke after the pandemic... Since the pandemic there was a strong preference for performance and a strong negativity towards rank hoppers. Now they finally fully went to the 2009-2019 banzuke era with strong preference for Joy and strong preference for RANK. A 6-9 is not a lot worse than a 7-8...At the top of the banzuke a 6-9 should not demote you more than 1.5 ranks, especially if everyone else does poorly. But those 0 rank demotions on 6-9 DO NOT MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL. I am flabbergasted by their strong preference for OHO.... This is the third time in the last 7 bashos they show a lot of favoritism towards him and I wonder why?
Eh... I dump on Oho a lot, but this isn't strong favoritism. He's just been in some fortunate positions. If he had been tied with Mitakeumi, but Mitakeumi would have received some kind of demotion regardless of who was placed in front, I'm pretty sure they'd have been flip-flopped from what we got.
Some really baffling calls from the committee there. Wonder if some of them are to make a statement at the expense of logic, as you said in your video to explain how the banzuke is made, there's always a bit of sumo politics in banzuke making. So I wonder if they wanted to make a statement about these rikishi climbing to joi without the record to earn it and ending up doing poor performances even if the effect makes no sense given Wakatakakage's experience at such levels and Ura and Meisei's mediocre performances last basho. I also wonder if them punishing guys that go kyujo (Takayasu not getting the preferential treatment Hokutofuji got, and of course what the hell happened with Onosho) could be a rebuttal of YDC mentioning that considering a return of the kosho system could be a positive right after last basho, even through keeping Nishikifuji makes no sense. However, Onokatsu at M14w instead of M15e makes sense even if they cap promotions from juryo to earned ranks. Ryan from GSB mentioned in one of his previous reviews that recently they basically treat M17w as non-existent when there's an odd number of san'yaku rikishi. As such +3 ranks from J3e would be M14w as M17w gets disregarded.
To clarify that bit about M17w: it's not about M17w specifically, but rather the west side of whatever the last rank is when there's only a guy on the east (ie. when there's an odd number of sanyaku). You might realize that, but I wanted to say it for anyone else that might read this.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill Yeah you're right to mention this, could also happen with M16w with a mega large sanyaku or M18w with a bare-bones sanyaku, I oversimplified it.
Thanks for the shoutout in the video for me and Grand Sumo Breakdown. I cannot believe the audacity the banzuke committee had in keeping two 6-9 rikishi at their previous rank. Unheard of in recent sumo, excluding one or two niche cases.
I actually won Guess the Banzuke this basho for the first time and reclaimed my spot at the top of the overall rankings. If you're going to look for other predictions to review before turning yours in, you could do a lot worse. 😉
THAT'S YOU?!
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill Sure is! I'm Goshobiyama on Guess the Banzuke.
interested to hear about the 1 or 2 niche cases
@@reesie89 Ichiyamamoto had his rank frozen in Aki of 2022 after starting 6-3, but then getting pulled due to Covid. His final record would effectively be 6-9, but because rikishi that were pulled due to Covid had their rank frozen if they had not already achieved a Kachi Koshi or Make Koshi, that case really doesn't count.
Another case was back in Natsu 2011. This was the first basho back after the Haru basho was cancelled due to the match fixing scandal. There were many rikishi on the banzuke that were forced to retire because of the scandal, so because of that a lot of weird promotions and demotions had to be made, and one was to keep a 6-9 rikishi at his previous rank.
Prior to those two cases, the last time a rikishi kept his exact rank after a 6-9 record was in 1967.
No demotion for a guy that was 6-9 is insane. I never thought that could happen lol
It never had. Which is why it’s so obscene.
I accepted long ago that making the banzuke is more of an arcane ritual than a math problem.
I went into this video knowing *nothing* about sumo and came out of it with very strong opinions on the Banzuke and 6-9 demotions. 10/10.
Perfect way to join the community
Somehow managed to go 8-7 on this one and I couldn't be happier. What an absolute nightmare. Didn't expect to see a first-time-ever occurrence for my first GTB for sure.... Thank you for all your help in getting me in to this, I love your videos and these were always my favorite.
Love the analysis. Love the passion. Great video, Sumo Spiffy! 👊👊👊
Im starting to think Spiffy has feelings
Never seen Spiffy completely lost it's shit, but I strongly agree that you had reason to do so.
the first 30 seconds of this video fulfilled all of my expectations. Committee jumped the shark on this one.
in response to Hokotofuji, I only found 1 instance since 1948 of a 13e going 6-9 not moving. ichiyamamoto went 6-3-6 in July 2022(which may have been that crazy covid basho where half the field went down). The only one at any rank I could find since the 60s was Tochinonada at M14 at Natsu 2011, which again had very strange circumstances as that was the basho where 6 guys went intai in makuuchi following the match-fixing scandal, so they didn't have a choice.
The fact that they didn't demote THREE 6-9 guys beyond 1 rank is the wackest thing I've ever seen. They demoted mita half a rank to give oho a full rank over promotion is such a slap in the face too.
It's not even about Oho, really. The fact they felt compelled to make Mitakeumi eat that half-rank, but then-for no good reason-allowed Ura to drop only a half-rank on 6-9 just a few ranks down is not chill. You know I want the best for my boy Ura, but even with that permanent halo of goodness surrounding him, this placement was too kind.
Or brutal if a few injuries send him into a bunch of sanyaku fights *again*.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill That's exactly why it's a slap in the face.
Flabbergasted is the word you're looking for.
It is certainly a word that fits.
As a Sumo newby, you made your points so clear and to see it fire back hard with almost no logic is incredible.
All the isegahama guys got the breaks it seems...
Some favoritism? Crony-ism?😶😕
I knew an intro like that was coming as soon as I saw the banzuke for myself hahaha
I'm a little sorry you're feeling frustrated Spiffy, but that is my favorite opening you've done. More ranting with 3rd person commentary please. 😂😅😂😅
Almost had a stroke after I first loaded up the bazuke and saw NISHIKIFUJI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Had to wait for the video to process anything, thanks
First thing I did after seeing the Banzuke was look for this video. I wasn't disappointed.
I got a 6-9 GTB score. At least I won't get demoted.
You try solve the puzzle by logic and math.
Banzuke ranking is heavily influenced by internal politics.
great job
Awesome... The real explanation . Thanks
your shocked bewilderment made me smile through the entire video. great job! what's the link for the "Guess the Banzuke" game? i didnt see it in the description, nor your prior video when you explained your picks
The entry form was linked in the Guess the Banzuke video, but here's a more useful link, with standings, entry form, helper, etc.: www.dichne.com/Guess.htm
😂😂 you go right back to American vowels when you’re angry lol 🤣🤣
Hope all is good with you my man 👍 looking forward to the basho?
Of course! And... yeah, some habits aren't ever gonna break... probably...
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill 🤣🤣 it’s tough when you’re in a frenzy, my old accent comes out whenever I get riled up lol. Just feels better to vent in one way over another, I suppose haha.
Anyway, still banging content, brother 👍
This was fun.
Thank you ❤
There is fun in confusion.
Feeling your pain. I was doing fine down to M4 and then... My worst GTB score ever!
I went 11-4 first really good score
Banzuke Committee: Nishikifuji was mathematically the wrestler with the best record to earn that m17 slot.
Spiffy : ?????? wtf wtf wtf 😂.
I agree with you Spiffy anyway. The optics are terrible. More wrestlers kept rank with a 6-9 record compared to wrestlers with a 7-8 record.
Also, by limiting maegashira big promotions and at the same time, demoting fully non competiting wrestlers makes sumo more predetermined imo.
Sumo wrestlers know their place and will try less in bouts because they will not be rewarded. Also, they must not be injured or else they will be the fall guy.
Cannot wait for all the lacklustre bouts next basho.
But he wasn't the best! Three other guys were tied with him, and Shishi was ahead! AHHHHHHHH
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill You are right about Shishi, I forgot about him.
That makes the Nishikifuji decision even worse than I thought.
I'm of mixed opinion. On one hand I did amazing this banzuke but on the other hand Nishikifuji getting the last spot over Onosho, or Chiyoshoma, or even Tamashoho is just criminal! The worst decision they possibly could have made! And it's crazy that you haven't heard of GSB's banzuke podcasts before when you're a top player! There's like 5 top players who share their banzuke guesses now, it's so much easier for a newbie to get into this stuff.
For my own take, this has been is the most joi and makuuchi bias we have seen in a banzuke in a long while. I've been mathpilling pretty hard so that scares me a bit! CaptSmarta$$, the guy that tied with Goshobiyama, was telling me that Shirokuma would be M16. I had him at M14W because I wanted to "play it safe" and make a pick that would be good if he got ranked high or low and I still think that was a smart pick on my part, but those guys had some insane foresight predicting Shirokuma like that!
Let me tell you Spiffy, getting drunk is the best way to enter the mind of the banzuke makers. I speak from experience.
I've seen 6-9 stay in place before, but only in juryo! Never before in makuuchi! This banzuke is so weird I might just forget about it and stick to my guns next basho hoping it's a one-off.
I originally had Nishikifuji at M17. My reasoning: of all the guys we're contemplating leaving in that last slot, he had the most wins. Unfortunately I let others talk me out of it!
Damn they really hate 0 wins. Actually I wonder if they would have kept Onosho if he went 0-15 for real instead of being absent.
Definitely not suggesting that all the decisions were made based on this but I always felt like some ranking decisions for guys with losing record could be affected by how they lost or how competitive they were with strong rikishi that finished with good records. Just as a less controversial example would be how besides terunofujis loses Ura put up the best bout with him despite losing. Not sure how matches like that should be taken into account but I’m sure it does in some way.
Is there a lot of political activity going on during banzuke committee meeting? Or is it like group of guys drinking hours before Fantasy football draft? Not sure why rikishi with 6-9 record stayed at same rank
No one understands. Drinking is possible to probable.
Oof, I can't say I don't enjoy a video where Spiffy gets his feathers ruffled ;). No freaking idea what happened in there either. Were they so impressed by Ura vs Teru? Did Waka shikona upset the elders and made them fumble words during the drunk discussion? Hokutofuji 6/9 remarked as nice by elders and we move on? We will never know, but thanks for the entertaining video anyway!
is there a single person that predicted nishikifuji to stay up?
Nope. (Probably.)
I just noticed Hokutofuji's beya... coincidence?
Yeah.
Wow, Takayasu went way down the Banzuke. Then again, he has been injured a lot, and has missed significant chunks of the last two basho, so it really shouldn't surprise me.
Geez! So if Onosho dropped out sooner, could he have dropped to M17 from M5, and stayed in Makuuchi? Instead of J1? Takayasu went 0-2-12, and dropped to M15 from M3🙄 im sad and mad. Seems like favoritism going on behind closed doors and there is zero Accountability for those making the decisions and they dont owe us any explanation whatsoever!! And I'll stop before going off on the whole Hakuho fiasco.
I'm as shocked as you.
I had very similar Sanyaku.
Copied pretty much your middle, or came up with the same math.
But the lower part makes me just angry. How can Nishikifuji safe rank while Onosho is getting kicked out? 👿
Maybe They know Onosho is injured and will not fight? Could that be the case?
@@OsbornsConciseIf it was such why not chiyosoma he came back and did well .And it would have made sense when ur at last rank and u lose 6-9 not even 7-8 u r going down the divison.
It's beyond my senses why they did so the guy was fighting the lowest rankers of makuuchi and had loosing record while a guy ahead of him was injured he came back and had 5-5-5 record at maegashira 15 east .
Like what the hell he should have been at 17 east that's 2 rank demotion which would have made sense for 5-5 record and 5 absentees and it's not like he had absentees at last moments he came back after 5 absentees so he was gunning to go .
Jeez I m pissed really it seems they r doing but if favoritism especially seeing how they treat hokutofuji which let's assume acceptable somehow .Nishkifuji of all guys even though u had chiyosoma nah that's L
@@OsbornsConciseahh, but what about others who are/have been injured but are still in top division?😕😶
I can see 7-8 guys not getting demoted.....but 6-9 guys? WTF?
Also: what are Onosato's chances of making Ozeki? He maths out to needing 12 wins.
And his chances are approximately equal to the odds of him getting twelve wins. I don't know what those odds are, but that's about correct.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill Have you heard of a scenario where someone got promoted to Ozeki on 32 wins over 3 bashos? If Onosato goes 11-4 at Aki, he'd have 32 wins, one short of the mark, but he would have a Yusho and at least one win over Teru. Is that something the Committee has done in the past?
@@TheSpectre2300 It has happened, but I would be very surprised if 11-4 was enough to get it done here. If the run was, say, 10-10-12Y, with the strongest performance and a yusho at the end, that's the kind of run that might do it. Or 11-8-13, with one obvious rough basho but two very strong ones on either side of it. Bear in mind, they've also turned guys down with 33 and even 34 wins in the past. It goes both ways.
So I am bit unclear on what demotion did Hokutofuji get….
BANNED 💢💢💢💢💢
Western guys who rant and become frustrated because they have zero influence over the Banzuke is the most entertaining thing ever. 😂
One more tournament in juryo = a more mature, or more subervient fighter?
Who are we talking about?
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill Without watching again, the guys who didn't get promoted because the 6-9 guys (Hokutofuji+) got held up.
WoW.... FInally they have come to their senses with the banzuke after the pandemic... Since the pandemic there was a strong preference for performance and a strong negativity towards rank hoppers. Now they finally fully went to the 2009-2019 banzuke era with strong preference for Joy and strong preference for RANK.
A 6-9 is not a lot worse than a 7-8...At the top of the banzuke a 6-9 should not demote you more than 1.5 ranks, especially if everyone else does poorly. But those 0 rank demotions on 6-9 DO NOT MAKE ANY SENSE AT ALL.
I am flabbergasted by their strong preference for OHO.... This is the third time in the last 7 bashos they show a lot of favoritism towards him and I wonder why?
Eh... I dump on Oho a lot, but this isn't strong favoritism. He's just been in some fortunate positions. If he had been tied with Mitakeumi, but Mitakeumi would have received some kind of demotion regardless of who was placed in front, I'm pretty sure they'd have been flip-flopped from what we got.
Some really baffling calls from the committee there.
Wonder if some of them are to make a statement at the expense of logic, as you said in your video to explain how the banzuke is made, there's always a bit of sumo politics in banzuke making.
So I wonder if they wanted to make a statement about these rikishi climbing to joi without the record to earn it and ending up doing poor performances even if the effect makes no sense given Wakatakakage's experience at such levels and Ura and Meisei's mediocre performances last basho.
I also wonder if them punishing guys that go kyujo (Takayasu not getting the preferential treatment Hokutofuji got, and of course what the hell happened with Onosho) could be a rebuttal of YDC mentioning that considering a return of the kosho system could be a positive right after last basho, even through keeping Nishikifuji makes no sense.
However, Onokatsu at M14w instead of M15e makes sense even if they cap promotions from juryo to earned ranks. Ryan from GSB mentioned in one of his previous reviews that recently they basically treat M17w as non-existent when there's an odd number of san'yaku rikishi. As such +3 ranks from J3e would be M14w as M17w gets disregarded.
To clarify that bit about M17w: it's not about M17w specifically, but rather the west side of whatever the last rank is when there's only a guy on the east (ie. when there's an odd number of sanyaku). You might realize that, but I wanted to say it for anyone else that might read this.
@@sumospiffysbarandgrill Yeah you're right to mention this, could also happen with M16w with a mega large sanyaku or M18w with a bare-bones sanyaku, I oversimplified it.
dude chill out, were they supposed to ask your opinion beforehand? you might want to find a new hobby lmao
You need a hug homie. 🫂
🫂