Slavery and the Catholic Church
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 гру 2020
- Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Spanish translations by Vélez Translations, www.veleztranslations.com
As anyone who’s successfully completed any level of education knows, any decent curriculum will unfold gradually with the most basic lessons at the beginning and the most difficult at the end.
So, take a typical math curriculum for example. The first level of instruction will include lessons about counting to a certain number, counting by two’s and three’s, and maybe a little addition and subtraction.
But higher levels of instruction will cover concepts like algebra, problem solving, trigonometry, and functions. And in between those two levels are a series of progressive lessons that help prepare a student for the higher levels. The curriculum is designed to progressively reveal knowledge to the student.
Now what would you make of someone who looks at a curriculum like that and criticizes it by only ever looking at the fist level and says, “All their doing is counting and a little addition? They aren’t even doing long division? How is this a good math curriculum?”
And then they selectively quote from the primary lessons in order to convince other people that this is a bad curriculum. They point out how rudimentary and inferior this is because it doesn’t cover the topics and knowledge that many of us who are already educated take for granted.
Wouldn’t you think that was dishonest? Wouldn’t you think that was a slanderous and fallacious way of describing that curriculum? Well, something like that goes on when the Bible and the Church are discussed by critics all the time, especially on the topic of slavery.
You could describe the Bible as a kind of spiritual and ethical curriculum. It depicts the gradual and progressive unfolding of knowledge and experience for those who were being formed by God in history so that they could come to a full knowledge of what is good and true.
So you might identify one of the first lessons with the story of God’s liberation of the Jewish people from Egypt through Moses as his prophet. And in those stories, he gives them the 10 commandments and the Mosaic law.
But these are just the first lessons. God goes on to continue to reveal what is true and good throughout the history of these people until he reveals himself fully through the person and teachings of Jesus. Jesus is the calculus in this mathematical curriculum.
But what I see a lot of anti-Christian and atheistic critics doing these days, is quoting from the first lessons, going back to Moses and the law and saying, look at how evil the Bible is for not fixing all the objectionable things in his time.
You have to remember, the Bible is telling us about a people who had to be told that killing and stealing was wrong. God is starting at the rudest level of ethical understanding to help humanity know how to begin. So he starts with a legal system that introduces people to the concept and practice of justice. This is the 1+1 and counting by two’s lesson in ethics.
So on the topic of slavery, critics will quote passages from this first ethical lesson while ignoring everything that came after it, up to and including all the teachings and actions of the Church.
But the first thing I’d want to point out is that no other ethical curriculum in the world condemned slavery either. Every nation and civilization up until the middle ages had slavery. The Persians had it, the Chinese had it, the Egyptians had it, the Greeks and Romans had it, the indigenous people of the Americas had it, Africans had it, and the Islamic world… you better believe they had it. Mohammed personally owned and sold slaves.
So what we have are people taking cheap shots at Christianity for not abolishing slavery in the very fist ethical lesson of its curriculum and calling it inferior, even though no other ethical framework accounted for it either.
Again, using the math analogy, that’s like criticizing the first math lesson in a curriculum for not having long division and denouncing it as an inferior curriculum as a result, when no other math curriculum ever even gets to long division.
So the question then becomes, if long division is analogous to remedying the evils of slavery, does Christianity ever do it or can atheists continue to lay this charge at the feet of the Church?
Read the whole transcript at brianholdsworth.ca
As a historian myself I can only congratulate you, dear Brian!!
SMH....You should ask your university for a refund!
@@user-vg8ez9cu6u Why? Are you a historian yourself? Or are you just butthurt? LMAO!!
I prefer herstory
As a historian, any book recommendations for Catholicism or the Church?
Reading primary sources on anti slavery thought and the origin of the abolitionist movement, I was extremely disappointed in the historical part of his presentation.
Thank you for this take. This was liberating and helpful. as a haitian american newly converted to Eastern orthodoxy I've always struggle with this topic but this has freed me from the bonds of guilt and anger. May the Lord have Mercy on you and bless you.
Now there is a fascinating question I hadn't considered. I have never considered Eastern Christians to have anything to do with the Atlantic slave trade. Those two concepts were fully separate in my mind. I have no idea. It is reasonable for there to have been some bare minimum contact the scope and connection intrigue me.
@@jeremysmith7176 its for that reason and many others i decided to be part of the Eastern orthodox faith. However, prior to that, as a protestant, it has always been a struggle
I'm a former math teacher and I think this analogy falls apart at the most important point: An ethical/moral math teacher would never instruct his/her students to do bad/false mathematics... But this is the equivalent of what we see in the Bible's "curriculum". Specifically, we see the Bible condone and give advice on how to the ethical/moral evil of slavery aka condone and give advice on how to do "bad/false mathematics".
I would never teach my students that 1+1 =11 and give them a system to evaluate addition as just ramming the numbers together (2+2+3=223)... because it's wrong. Even if I'm not teaching addition yet because addition is later in the curriculu's progression, I would not give them false information on addition. This is what the Bible does do.
@@random_nerd_stuff6576 And as a good math teacher you wouldn't burn your failing students at the stake.
@@lescsavosi4283 🤔
Let me think
The best exposition of Church's teaching on slavery.
They love slavery,lords will
Your intros always look like you have something juicy to say and you can't wait to share it. Love your work!
When I was quite young (1960s) my neighborhood theater had a revival run of “Gone with the Wind.” My mom, a Southerner and convert sent me to see this classic epic potboiler.
Upon my return, Mom engaged me in a lengthy conversational lesson which culminated in informing me that at the time of the Civil War slavery had been condemned by the Church, so the scenes which depicted the O’Haras as devout, rosary-praying slave owners was either historically wrong or deliberate on the part of Margaret Mitchell (also a Catholic) to illustrate that Scarlett learned hypocrisy in her family.
Furthermore, Protestant Ashley Wilkes waxes poetic about the culture which is built on slavery and is married to his first cousin, which is a no-no, but Mr. O’Hara’s sole objection to a potential match between Ashley and Scarlett is about temperament. The Protestant neighbors have no theological objections to slavery at all in the novel, while the O’Hara family are breaking multiple codified Catholic injunctions by owning humans, however “kindly” they are treated.
This was a real eye opener for me, and made me a firebrand on these points, one which is usually lost in the noise of the wider pop culture. It became a big deal when we moved to the Deep South a few years later and I was in school with devoted Confederates who found Catholics an oddity (at least). It was 50 years ago, before Jimmy Carter even.
•••• Of course, we are *all hypocrites in reality, even if it’s a different sinful behavior.* But in an era where entertainment teaches even more than civil legal codes do, these finer points help illustrate important truths.
Rose Zingleman Thank you for sharing! As a Catholic reading Gone with the Wind, I was always struck by how non-Catholic in virtue Scarlett and her family were. Yes they prayed the rosary, but that was all. Her and her family never seemed to go to church, Scarlett was overall an extremely terrible and selfish person, and the biggest point was, like you said, that they owned slaves! It infuriated me to no end how slaves were portrayed in the novel, and the most ironic part of the entire story was when all the slaves came into town singing “Go Down, Moses”, a song literally about emancipation; however in the book it was just treated as some “negro spiritual” that didn’t really seem mean anything. I am convinced that, while the story was compelling, its purpose was not to teach any moral lesson but to further a dangerous ideal of southern culture and pride.
Thanks for this analysis, very interesting.
@@swiggitysk8 I never thought of Scarlett as a heroine. She is depicted as a strong character who has the resources to achieve her goals but she is also shallow and capricious, and has a "flexible" morality.
She is only a survivor led by her whim, and as result her life is a failure. She has the practical tools and the resolve, but lacks the wisdom to put those talents to the right goal, and consequently she ends up wealthy but alone.
In some sense it is a religious story... which tells us about the result of putting oneself at the centre of one's life.
The story of Melania is a different one. Melania is happy, Scarlett is always unsatisfied.
Have you ever heard the Qur’an talking about Jesus and his mother, peace be upon a translator. Did you know that Jesus and his mother mentioned the Qur’an 25 times? Listen to me the linkua-cam.com/video/hQCFr_enOkED/v-deo.htmlo you have a question you want to know about Islam? We answer your question within the linkwww.faithchat.com. غ
There were a number of Catholics and quasi-Catholics who supported the Confederate cause. Whether they actually supported chattle slavery is unclear. Among them were Fr. Abram Ryan (who is the eponym of a Catholic high school near me) and John S. Mosby:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abram_Joseph_Ryan
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_S._Mosby
Also search Wikipedia’s “Confederate States of America” article for the word “Catholic”:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America
What you described at the beginning is exactly what I felt about John Greens reaction to Aquinas’ 5 ways
The United States, the first modern democracy, issued the Dred Scott decision in 1857 cementing the fate of slaves as being property of their masters until the passing of 14th amendnent to the constitution in 1868.
Three hundred years before the Dred Scott case, in the debate of Valladolid, Friar Bartolomé de las Casas successfully argued for the Catholic Church that indigenous people were human beings and equal in dignity to Christians and deserving of the same human rights and the promises of the gospel.
For centuries humanity, even Christianity, has been slow and even hostile to adopting the ideas of the gospel all the while extolling its virtues.
It is no different than us dealing with sin in our personal lives. You would think that once one becomes a Christian one is perfect avd "saved" already like some Christians of other denominations would claim. Catholics know better realizing that salvation is an arduous process and the perfection God's grace confers to us with our cooperation will be complete at the end of our lives.
Emperor Justinian listed slavery under "International Law," he said, because "Every nation
practiced it."
Ad populum? Everyone does it, therefore it’s ok?
@@theroguejester6412 Yep.
@@theroguejester6412 acording to Justinian, yeah
I could’ve used this two years ago when a co-worker was trying to beat me into submission with this topic.
I think you would have been giving a bad analogy and if your coworker would have spotted it, it could have made things worse. There is the chance that your coworker was correct on the subject.
I'm a former math teacher and I think this analogy falls apart at the most important point: An ethical/moral math teacher would never instruct his/her students to do bad/false mathematics... But this is the equivalent of what we see in the Bible's "curriculum". Specifically, we see the Bible condone and give advice on how to perform the ethical/moral evil of slavery.... this is the equivalent of a teacher condoning and giving advice on how to do "bad/false mathematics".
I would never teach my students that 1+1 =11 and give them a system to evaluate addition as just ramming the numbers together (2+2+3=223)... because it's wrong. Even if I'm not teaching addition yet because addition is later in the curriculu's progression, I would not give them false information on addition. This is what the Bible does... and justifying bad teachings with "I will tell them the truth [about slavery] later"... is not acceptable.
@@random_nerd_stuff6576 You need to stick on math then, because the truth of the matter is most people around the world at certain time sees nothing wrong on slavery not until Christianity came along that taught each person have a divinity on them unlike emperors and royalty which is God themselves. If it weren't for Christianity slavery will still be legal today and perhaps you won't be a math teacher today because it was the Catholic Church who instituted Universities for all walks of life.
@@ungas024 I did stick with math, thank you for the advice. I think that we are talking pass each other... I'm directly addressing teaching bad morals with the reasoning that people will eventually learn/be taught the good morals. I guess if you want to address my point we could start by seeing if you thinking that it is the correct thing to do... aka... Do you think that it is ok to teach bad/false mortality and then teach the good/true mortality much later?
One of the best videos and examinations on this subject!! Thank you.
This is an INCREDIBLE insight on the topic, Brian. Thank you for making this content.
Thanks for researching the facts for us Brian, great job, lovely hurling!
Yours and Matt Fradd's are my go to Catholic channels. I have learnt so much from you guys, your guests and your comment sections. As a late-in-life convert there is so much to learn and explore in this faith I have chosen to follow (God's thumb in my back had much do it with. He never stopped) May He bless and protect you all.
People are so full of pride, they see nothing wrong with looking back in time and judging people. They have no idea what life was like during biblical times, or even twenty years ago... “The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.” ― L.P. Hartley
I'm not criticizing the people of the time, I'm criticizing the unchanging god that gave instructions for how to purchase slaves and has never once said, "Slavery is bad and should be abolished."
Have you ever heard the Qur’an talking about Jesus and his mother, peace be upon a translator. Did you know that Jesus and his mother mentioned the Qur’an 25 times? Listen to me the linkua-cam.com/video/hQCFr_enOkED/v-deo.htmlo you have a question you want to know about Islam? We answer your question within the linkwww.faithchat.com. ش
@BVale I don’t know. I don’t know anything god has said. No one does. We know what people have claimed god has said but no one knows what god has ever said. Even if you personally have “Heard God”, how can you know it was god that you heard?
With that being said, there’s no record in the Bible of your god condoning the practice of slavery.
@BVale I can't defend a slur on god? I suppose not as I don't believe a god exists let alone the Christian god or more specifically the Catholic god or, even more specifically, your version of the Catholic god (assuming you're Catholic that is).
I suppose the difference between a pandemic and the church's "collective ear" is that the pandemic has evidence that is testable and makes predictions whereas the church makes claims that are unfalsifiable.
@BVale Even if that correlation is true (which I have no evidence for or against at the moment), correlation is not causation.
I think the mathematics analogy is great
No, it isn't. Teaching something wrong just because a student isn't prepared for it is like teaching that 1+1 = 5 and justifying it by saying that the student isn't prepared for calculus.
@@homfes Thank you...this analogy is horrible
Mr. Holdsworth, how do you do this??!!
No matter the topic.... You consistently present the best arguments and analogies I've ever heard.
Yes! Thank you for this video
Solid.. one of your best videos yet!
Nice.... Can you provide a link to the reinforcements couldn’t find it
www.brianholdsworth.ca 🙂
This is a great analogy. Fantastic video Brian! In Mexico, the Catholic church along with the Catholic Monarchy established and built universities and hospitals for all inhabitants of the Viceroyalty of New Spain.
I'm a former math teacher and I think this analogy falls apart at the most important point: An ethical/moral math teacher would never instruct his/her students to do bad/false mathematics... But this is the equivalent of what we see in the Bible's "curriculum". Specifically, we see the Bible condone and give advice on how to the ethical/moral evil of slavery aka condone and give advice on how to do "bad/false mathematics".
I would never teach my students that 1+1 =11 and give them a system to evaluate addition as just ramming the numbers together (2+2+3=223)... because it's wrong. Even if I'm not teaching addition yet because addition is later in the curriculu's progression, I would not give them false information on addition. This is what the Bible does do.
Explain how the bible condones these things.
Because nowhere is the bible giving the ethical knowledge of doing wrong.
@@random_nerd_stuff6576 can you provide Bible quotes so I understand exactly what “false mathematics” the Bible teaches?
@@tryhardf844 Lev 25:44 (ESV) says "As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you."
This is saying that "you may have" slaves. This is condoning the having if slaves... aka slavery.
....
It was a shock to me when I read it too.
@@shanepaulryanalexander2934 Sure... but in order for it to be false you have the belief that slavery is wrong/immoral. So under that assumption this verse is teaching false morality.
"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have: you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are around you."
Lev 25 :44 (ESV).
I was just thinking earlier today “man, I could really go for a new Holdy vid!”
EXCELLENT JOB. EVEN CATHOLIC CLERGY NEED TO KNOW THIS
What is your take on Dum Diversas (English: Until different) a papal bull issued on 18 June 1452 by Pope Nicholas V.
This depends on your intellectual level that of the teacher and the receptionist that believes what the teacher said. Let's go to the beginning. In the beginning, Yeshua created Adam and Eve to populate the earth with the freedom of hanging out with God Yeshua himself. That was not only their Creator but was a Father and teacher who gave them total freedom to live in a free society living with a Perfect God. This comes from only an intellectual mind base on the information available. Something happens and changes everything, the whole world was reorganized under a different leadership and rule of laws. The new regulations are not Yeshua's plan of the idea but man's choice to take this route and Yeshua God allow it based on the law that was already in place. Let us look at the present time Yeshua allows the man to come back to him and escape all of society's issues because Yeshua has set him free from the condition that he has entrapped himself into. Because of this new freedom he could also with Yeshua's support get out of anything that was holding him back from ant freedom that was needed. So American slavery was called kidnapping which Yeshua and God said they must be put to death, so all American slave traders and owners must be put to death according to scripture. Because Yeshua had set us free over two thousand years before the Trande Atlantic Slave trade. So America Government own the Catholic religion and even today owes for the damages they have caused then and now. Because the laws are still in place that slave owners set up, help in place by today's Government make them accomplish the crime and are the criminal of today against the Word of God Himself Yeshua. The White Church of America was more guilty because they said they believe in Yeshua God but worked for the devil even today also. The Bible makes it clear like he did with the slave of Egptians slave the Jews who were not White but Black. The term white is fabricated made up of man and supported by the Church people of today who say they know Jesus Yeshua who is the Truth and yet they are living a lie. For the Slave set free from Egypt Yeshua paid them back for the crime of enslavement of Egypt so Yeshua has to pay American slaves back also for their enslavement even Europeans and the Catholic Church as well as America Churches.
Brian, you left out the part where Eugene IV recanted his papal bull condemning enslavement under pressure from Spanish and Portuguese powers. It's true Pius II condemned slavery, but didn't condemn slavery of pagans. During the fifteenth century the Church approved enslavement because the Spanish and Portuguese powers convinced the Church they were in western coastal Africa to "baptize" the natives
This part of history shouldn't be left out, and it wasn't just individual Catholics, it was also the institution that endorsed slavery. That endorsement ended with Paul III, and then after that it was mostly individual Catholics who didn't follow papal teaching.
It's also quite ingenious to put all blame of slavery on the Protestant reformation when the particular chattel slavery began with the Spanish and Portuguese. All the coastal powers in Europe built their empires off of chattel slavery mostly for profit. However it was only in later centuries the Spanish and Portuguese tempered their enslavement long before the British and the Americans. And as you mentioned, in order to explain this to atheists we have to acknowledge that individual Catholics (and earlier on in the 1400s, the institutional Church) did not live up to their Gospel upbringings by enforcing chattel slavery, and thus none of what happened even enforced by Catholics should never be rationalized.
You left out "the part" where you just practiced exactly the thing noted in this video...you cherry-picked the history of the Roman Catholic Church, ignoring a multiude of good things, to highlight things you wish to claim were wrong! Go on to some atheist forum and point out to them, that in less than a century their godless brothers slaughtered over one hundred million people...or, doesn't that matter to you...really?
@@mmmail1969 dude, don't be dumb. I know my Church history, and I know all the great things the Church has done. The problem with Brian's video is a problem that Catholics have when presenting Church history, and that is we tend to whitewash Church history and pretend the Church never did anything wrong. My comment was to complete that part of history, not to cherry pick it. Why only talk about de Las Casas and Vittoria, and forget the papal bulls from the mid to late 1400s? It's an incomplete presentation of that part of Church history. We have to be more honest with Church history instead of viewing it triumphalistically.
Sources for that?
@@kyleellis8665 there's two papal bulls, one is Dum Diversas in 1452, and the other is Inter Caetera. There were other papal bulls in the late 1400s, including one by Alexander VI.
@@Montfortracing so again, you went through 2,000yrs of Church history and cherry-picked the relatively few debatable "bad" experiences....which everyone, from the time the Apostles on down, freely admits can an do happen - humans fail? So you're really just big noting yourself pointing out the bleeding obvious?
3:39 *quick correction*
Zoroastrianism forbade slavery. But persians didn't enforce zoroastrian beliefs. So slavery still existed
Great video. Thank you.
Excellent comparison.
What is the chant in the background?
Viva Cristo Rey, it's called "The Love of God" by composer Paul F. Jernberg. Here is a link to it on SoundCloud:
soundcloud.com/user-879235558/introit-the-love-of-god?fbclid=IwAR1HRtl2k7-9zMdpAykbz-XQwEsovaxA90smC0Q-verJhRNRXikXBoEYmas
@@antonbrereton2692 thank you!
Have you ever heard the Qur’an talking about Jesus and his mother, peace be upon a translator. Did you know that Jesus and his mother mentioned the Qur’an 25 times? Listen to me the linkua-cam.com/video/hQCFr_enOkED/v-deo.htmlo you have a question you want to know about Islam? We answer your question within the linkwww.faithchat.com. ن
This is a good video Brian, you explained it very well the Church's teaching and impact on slavery. Western civilisation, the civilisation the Catholic Church created, is the only civilisation to abolish slavery. No other one did. Also the European slave trade was rooted in and an extension of the Arab slave trade.
Absolutely correct! Here have a cookie.
Catholicism paved the way for the abolition of Slavery since Pope Gregory I making aNglo Saxons equal Christians. Even Saint Paul says you should treat your slave as your "brother".
John, read a book sometime. The English abolished it long before the Spanish and Portuguese. The western civilization was created by the Catholic Church?? That's why a British monarch cannot marry a Catholic and a Catholic cannot become a U.S. president. Get real. Western civilization survived despite the Catholic Church.
Didn't the Catholic Church issue an edict to make Africans perpetual slaves, thus kicking off the TransAtlantic Slave Trade?
Thanks for this break down. Well done.
Fantastic. Thank you for this
thanks you Brian! peace to you!
Love how you put that, it's how revelation and understanding is, yet Sola Scriptura stops at the first layer, and are without understanding in various degrees.
Well done Brian.
Brian, your analogy of increasingly complex math lessons is a valuable one. It reminds us that our judgment of a past age has to acknowledge that that age's precedents and our own precedents are very different. Two other comments:
1) It can hardly be doubted that the Church played a key role in the moral revolution on slavery. Nevertheless, the fact remains that a great evil was committed/condoned in the slavery resulting from the Atlantic slave trade, even if it was with a degree of ignorance. Unlike with math, the hundreds of years it took for us to learn this lesson had a moral cost numbering into millions of lives. Though we should be glad that, as has never happened before in history, the evil was eventually named and condemned, it is also fitting that we lament that such an evil ever occurred at all.
2) The analogy of progressive lessons raises the big question: what new lessons are we being taught now? Are we entering a new phase of greater understanding of God's will? It is foolish and dangerous to make rash assertions there (see: heresy), but just looking at our history should give us the humility to realize we might not understand it all yet. For the curious about this topic, I recommend The Church that Can and Cannot Change by John Noonan, and On the Development of Christian Doctrine by John Henry Newman.
Very good treatment of the subject matter. Very good.
You deserve a million subs. Every video is a gem.
Not all gems are precious.
Interesting as always.
A brilliant video. Liked and subbed.
Thank you so much for your logic and truth! 👍
You speak of your online community the re enforcements. I've googled it and nothing shows up.
Great video!!! Thank you very much, it was much appreciated!
Interesting subject !
Amen. LOL. When I saw that in my notifications, I did not hesitate-suffice it to say.
Have you ever heard the Qur’an talking about Jesus and his mother, peace be upon a translator. Did you know that Jesus and his mother mentioned the Qur’an 25 times? Listen to me the linkua-cam.com/video/hQCFr_enOkED/v-deo.htmlo you have a question you want to know about Islam? We answer your question within the linkwww.faithchat.com. م
@@veryrespectful583 May I ask you a question here?
@@FoolishLearner Do you have a question you want to know about Islam? We answer your question within the linkwww.faithchat.com. 😘❤❤🙏
@@veryrespectful583 yeah I know Jesus Christ and His mother are highly respected people in the Qu'ran.
Amen, amen and AMEN - every point you present here is SPOT on! Praise God for giving you the grace, courage and fortitude to speak this timeless truth with boldness and clarity!
Wish I could give this more than one like. Here is a comment to help with the algorithm.
Confucius had a version of the Golden Rule long before Christianity, and phrased it better: “Do not impose on others what you do not wish for yourself.” The value of this obviously humanistic teaching derives not from being found within any religious tradition, but from its emphasis on actions and consequences, not faith or dogma.
Confucius’s wording is better than the Christian “do unto others” because it stresses the avoidance of actions that cause harm, which is the bare minimum for morality and requires far less effort.
Slavery causes harm and this simple statement could have been spoken by Abraham, Moses, Jesus, any of the Apostles or Church Fathers or any pope long before the 13th Amendment of 1865 or the 1994 Catechism finally codified the abhorrence of the practice.
Awesome video
Well said!!!👊🏾
Great video!
Very interesting! I did not know this....
Thank you.
Just one question: if we can use the argument of the "Evolution of Lessons" with slavery, can't we use it with homosexuality too? P.S. I understand the teachings of the Church and I know why homosexuality is a Sin, all that I'm saying is that the "Evolution of Lessons" or "Gradual understanding" arguments can be used for a lot of sins to condone them.
Not really becuase for even Jesus stated for what is a marriage and for what is not and still condemned the sins of others.
My MA is in American Studies and I looked at abolition and slavery in detail. It is difficult to know what was happening by just looking at primary sources showing slave ownership. For example, Quakers are known for anti-slavery sentiments. Yet you will find Quaker Meetings owning slaves. Well, in some Southern states, it was illegal to free your slaves. Others had slaves who wanted to stay near families and would need 'white' protection to avoid being 'captured' and re-sold. So some owners moved by Faith 'donated' their slaves to their church. Never forget, when it comes to the past -- it's complicated. :)
Thank you!!!
This depends on your intellectual level that of the teacher and the receptionist that believes what the teacher said. Let's go to the beginning. In the beginning, Yeshua created Adam and Eve to populate the earth with the freedom of hanging out with God Yeshua himself. That was not only their Creator but was a Father and teacher who gave them total freedom to live in a free society living with a Perfect God. This comes from only an intellectual mind base on the information available. Something happens and changes everything, the whole world was reorganized under a different leadership and rule of laws. The new regulations are not Yeshua's plan of the idea but man's choice to take this route and Yeshua God allow it based on the law that was already in place. Let us look at the present time Yeshua allows the man to come back to him and escape all of society's issues because Yeshua has set him free from the condition that he has entrapped himself into. Because of this new freedom he could also with Yeshua's support get out of anything that was holding him back from ant freedom that was needed. So American slavery was called kidnapping which Yeshua and God said they must be put to death, so all American slave traders and owners must be put to death according to scripture. Because Yeshua had set us free over two thousand years before the Trande Atlantic Slave trade. So America Government own the Catholic religion and even today owes for the damages they have caused then and now. Because the laws are still in place that slave owners set up, help in place by today's Government make them accomplish the crime and are the criminal of today against the Word of God Himself Yeshua. The White Church of America was more guilty because they said they believe in Yeshua God but worked for the devil even today also. The Bible makes it clear like he did with the slave of Egptians slave the Jews who were not White but Black. The term white is fabricated made up of man and supported by the Church people of today who say they know Jesus Yeshua who is the Truth and yet they are living a lie. For the Slave set free from Egypt Yeshua paid them back for the crime of enslavement of Egypt so Yeshua has to pay American slaves back also for their enslavement even Europeans and the Catholic Church as well as America Churches.
First principles are fundamental!
Why do we have the whole Bible then, if so many parts of it are outdated? And where is it said in the Bible that we should accept messages from one part, but skip messages from the others as 'being earlier in curriculum'?
You cannot erase it. A big role of the bible is to preserve the early history of christianity. If it would have been left aside, people wouldnt have any idea were this religion started and thus would tend to disregard it as being a simple invention that someone came up with once.
@@mouse-uldefect2748 It is exactly the history of christianity, with many dogmatic changes and contradictions, that makes people feel that it is a simple human invention.
@@tomarchelone People that *invented* Christianity had nothing to gain out of doing so. Both Jesus Christ and all the apostles only gained punishment and finally death. Neither Moses did not had anything to gain as he almost got killed numerous times. The people that put the basis for christianity did not do it for personal gain or fame since they didnt obtain neither of those. If christianity would have been an invention made by Jesus Christ or his apostles in order to gain fame, they would have left it dead in the water the moment they felt any sign of danger, but they continued to support it even in the face of death. Most of the so called contradictions of the bible can be understood if you do not interpret it superficially. The old testament had an initial set of rules that was intended to slowly indtroduce a primitive nation to morality. It couldnt have been to drastic because many of the things that we consider normal now, would have been propesterous for the time. In the new testament we are tought that we shouldnt only follow a fix set of rules( Which was the case for the old testament, since it would have been impossible for people of the time to understand if done different), but do what is good and just. We are taught to follow not the natural law, since even the pagans that did so were just in the eyes of God. It is morally implicit that slavery is unjust and unfair. We are still taught to follow the rules, but moreso to do what is just and good.
I meant to say***to follow the natural law***
@@mouse-uldefect2748I don't follow. What part of your initial comment should be replaced by "to follow the natural law"?
The post reformation church was “certainly not spotless”. ( LOL) I truly do appreciate you setting the record straight on which dispensation of the Catholic Church was most responsible for the transatlantic slave trade. I did not know about the edict of pope Eugene. I blamed the Catholic Church as a whole. Even with the knowledge that the doctrines of all so called religions have been transgressed to some degree from their original form. As a black person, for what it’s worth, upon viewing this video, my entire view of the Catholic Church’s participation in the slave trade must be reevaluated. Figures that a fellow musician type ( I love true musician types! We’re not bandwagoneers) would have the consciousness and sensitivity to convey a message like this in the first place. The public education analogy at the beginning was… money! Spot on! Stellar! Truly dope. Time to research the early Catholic Church writings so I can separate the good eggs from the bad ones. Bravo!
6:55 The human institution with the biggest positive impact on slavery was the West Africa Squadron, ie. the Royal Navy.
3:10 The comparison with other moral systems of the time is very telling. Apparently, the god of the Bible is not as omnipotent and omniscient as we are lead to believe, and apparently "don't own slaves" was above his capabilities.
you missed the "Slavery over starvation" part bud
@@tiberius6633 You think slavery is the best solution to starvation?
Again, you make a category mistake Korben. God being all powerful and all knowing does not negate the free will of men.
As a side note, and my opinion only, There are no outright bans of slavery in the Bible and Jesus demonstrably came to save people regardless of their station in life (free and slave) from slavery to sin. The fact that the west lead the world away from slavery shows the process from its enchoat form to its legal banishment is in line with Brian’s video.
@@mikelopez8564 I'm doing nothing of the sort. Get your terms straight.
God forbid murder. Why wasn't this a contradiction of human free will?
I love your point bro and it's......where is god in all of this
Another compelling video as always, it's sad you don't get more traction.
Was it ever morally correct for one person to own another person as their property then or now ?
No it was not.
@@sydneyw4282 Thanks you for responding
I must of missed something because I always thought the church was against salvery because Moses freed the salves of Egypt. Did they say slavery was ok after that? On another thought I don't think it is ok to be for slavery based on the fact that everyone else was doing it. When I am confused I sit quietly and meditate. You can find clear answers often in your heart.
Not like it matters but I agree with you on this one. It is the reason why the story of the Centurion made it into Scripture. The centurion loved his slave. Something that must have been unusual. Christ also praised his Faith. It showed that one who has faith in Christ would likely be on his way to love his slave and vice versa.
St Paul also writes that slaves must try to please their masters and masters love their slaves as brethren.
8:45 "Without a doubt"? I'd like to have a source for that please.
Micah 2:2
“And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage.”
Thank you for this video its brilliant
WhaddoYouMeme has an excellent series explaining slavery in the bible. He's a protestant, but he did a lot of research. It's a three video series in response to cosmic skeptic's video criticizing the bible for what it says on slavery.
Iam with you brother
You point out that slavery was common throughout the world when the word of God failed to condemn it like it helps your point. But shouldn't we expect the commandments to be way ahead of the curve on stuff like this? God can say "no selfish or mixed fabrics" but he can't say "no involuntary slavery" ?
My question is simple, why did God take so long to reveal his divine plan for us, why did it have to take centuries for God to teach us the difference between good and evil why didn't he speed things up, knowing how sinful and flawed mankind is?
knowledge is very different from wisdom and holiness which is required to conform to God's will. Our times filled with technological advances (knowledge) and a decline in morality, debunks the myth that Man automatically grows in wisdom as time advances.
Have you ever heard the Qur’an talking about Jesus and his mother, peace be upon a translator. Did you know that Jesus and his mother mentioned the Qur’an 25 times? Listen to me the linkua-cam.com/video/hQCFr_enOkED/v-deo.htmlo you have a question you want to know about Islam? We answer your question within the linkwww.faithchat.com. ا
Man still had free will and if God were to speed things up, that would mean overriding much of man's free will like we could never grow up as a people and figure out things on our own. God the Son personally came down to Earth for our sake, also to show us how its done rather than just look down from heaven on how messed up we are. Shouldn't we instead look at God as being very generous?
@@veryrespectful583 No thank you. The Quran does not depict Jesus and Mary in the same way as our Bible, though there are similarities. Also, the Bible pre-dates the Quran and the life of Muhammad by a few hundred years. By default, the earlier text or record are more historically reliable based on their proximity to when the life of Jesus took place. If we Christians have questions about Christianity, we have our clerics and theologians to answer them, not Dawah preachers. God bless and peace be upon you too.
And also here in Sri Lanka especially in Goa in India atrocious things like inquisitions had gone but they were criticized even by the Jesuit Priests and other missionaries and considered as a obstacles to spread out Christianity. Most of these atrocities were done to fulfill the imperial expectations which were covered by the religious expectations.
5:45 We are talking about God here. He was unable to think of a solution to this problem?
Know that he does nothing that is negative.
@@brenosantana1458 He condones slavery. Is that positive?
@@korbendallas5318 I don't have all information. He does not agree with what is negative.
@@brenosantana1458 Unless he does.
5:24 idk... If you look at a starving person, do you think the obvious solution is to enslave them?
Even if it’s to avoid starvation, why should they give away their rights and freedom for it?
Was there no labor at the time that was rewarded with a wage where the worker kept their autonomy?
It's worse than that: Why is sexual slavery of his daughter even considered?
@@korbendallas5318 that is essentially what I was getting to.
@@g07denslicer Understood - I just wanted to drive the point home.
@@korbendallas5318 ah, fair enough :)
Would love to see you talk with Sam Harris. You would do a great against him.
‘3 justifications for scriptural slavery’ by Rationality rules on UA-cam addresses this, it’s an interesting debate.
5:00 That old "slavery was different" chestnut. Why then were foreign slaves treated worse than hebrew slaves?
Treating people worse because they are different is just how humans are buddy, presenting a book from God cannot chang that unfortunateley
(For the record I am not trying to justify racist treatment or slavery in general just giving a reason why this happened)
@@tiberius6633 I know why it happened; what I don't know is why it was commanded by God.
If what your saying is true then y wasn't it changed with the new testament..
As someone looking to find Christ, I keep coming back to the slavery issue, and it puts me at a roadblock.
Why could God say not to kill, but not condemn enslave? We have laws against eating specific animals, cutting hair, but not to not own property? Leviticus explicitly explains HOW to buy slaves, and God only commands they don’t buy their fellow Israelites. You are permitted to enslave prisoners of war as well.
The common argument against this is that it was mainly indentured servitude, yet there were still more types of slavery, so that falls flat as well.
Hope someone can clarify.
It's pretty simple. We've been conditioned to automatically assume the practice is a horrible institution and morally incompatible. It's an idea that we as individuals should all possess our destiny only within our own hands even though once critically analyzed falls apart even under the modern conditions of the west.
Throughout their directives, GOD admonished them to be cognizant of how they treated the strangers in their land because they were once strangers in a strange land
GOD did not & does not believe in slavery
There was nothing in the new world's system of slavery that was GOD-approved, including the kidnapping of entire innocent people groups & CHRISTIAN Communities from their Continent
¿Guess what should happen to someone who engages in kidnapping, according to THE BIBLE?
Realize also that slaves were allowed to attend church but to read THE BIBLE
There was a Slave BIBLE that was translated in USA
Approximately 80% of the OT & 30% of the NT were removed, so as not to let the slave understand that GOD HATES bondage
GOD IS ABOUT LIBERATION
&
Those who follow HIM wholly, adhering to SOLA SCTIPTURA, will treat everyone humanely, even their enemies
Who ended slavery? Christians - Catholics & Protestants!
You are thinking about becoming a follower of Jesus Christ? Well, don't, because of Judas. Does that sound reasonable to you? Then extend that introspection.
If you deny Jesus Christ because of the sins of His followers, then you put your own immortal soul in danger.
Who keeps slaves in the 21st Century? Islam & Communism.
The bible condones slavery: Leviticus 25:44-46 "However, you may purchase male and female slaves from among the nations around you. You may also purchase the children of temporary residents who live among you, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat them as slaves, but you must never treat your fellow Israelites this way."
Your argument seems to be that the god who literally killed virtually every living thing on the face of the earth with a great flood was too weak to force people not to own other people. Is that correct?
God does not agree with it, but if he forced people to fallow him he would counterdict himself, he gave human beings free will, and after Christ slavery was a big nono afterwards in Catholicism, the OT had slaves and so did the NT, but slaves had a diffrent weight of meaning during the day, sure they might of got beaten but God does not condone it.
Not to mention Leviticus 19:33-34 reads, “When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God
One person at a time opens his mind to these facts. Ignorance is handed down en masse from one to another.
Hi, Brian. Is it possible for you to contrast your commentaries with Pope Nicholas V's Bull Romanus Pontifex (1455) in which he gives his consent "(...) to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery"? This is deemed as one of the grounds for Portugal's rulers to submit native americans into slavery.
I tried to mention that in a comment here. Eugene IV under pressure from the Spanish and Portuguese recanted his bull condemning enslavement
I think you were confusing slavery and bondage in the Bible pond workers sold themselves into what was a form of false labour while slaves were imported from other countries
This depends on your intellectual level that of the teacher and the receptionist that believes what the teacher said. Let's go to the beginning. In the beginning, Yeshua created Adam and Eve to populate the earth with the freedom of hanging out with God Yeshua himself. That was not only their Creator but was a Father and teacher who gave them total freedom to live in a free society living with a Perfect God. This comes from only an intellectual mind base on the information available. Something happens and changes everything, the whole world was reorganized under a different leadership and rule of laws. The new regulations are not Yeshua's plan of the idea but man's choice to take this route and Yeshua God allow it based on the law that was already in place. Let us look at the present time Yeshua allows the man to come back to him and escape all of society's issues because Yeshua has set him free from the condition that he has entrapped himself into. Because of this new freedom he could also with Yeshua's support get out of anything that was holding him back from ant freedom that was needed. So American slavery was called kidnapping which Yeshua and God said they must be put to death, so all American slave traders and owners must be put to death according to scripture. Because Yeshua had set us free over two thousand years before the Trande Atlantic Slave trade. So America Government own the Catholic religion and even today owes for the damages they have caused then and now. Because the laws are still in place that slave owners set up, help in place by today's Government make them accomplish the crime and are the criminal of today against the Word of God Himself Yeshua. The White Church of America was more guilty because they said they believe in Yeshua God but worked for the devil even today also. The Bible makes it clear like he did with the slave of Egptians slave the Jews who were not White but Black. The term white is fabricated made up of man and supported by the Church people of today who say they know Jesus Yeshua who is the Truth and yet they are living a lie. For the Slave set free from Egypt Yeshua paid them back for the crime of enslavement of Egypt so Yeshua has to pay American slaves back also for their enslavement even Europeans and the Catholic Church as well as America Churches.
In ancient Israel slavery was basically an advance method of handling unpaid debt.
Nobody was permitted to keep a fellow Israelite as "slave" for more than seven years (Leviticus 25:35-55) At that point debt was annulled.
If one beat or harmed a slave, he had to be set free (Exodus 21:26)
If one came across an escaped slave, one was not supposed to return him (Deuteronomy 22:28).
Was it ok for the Catholic states to have catholic slaves? I know in europe it was forbidden but how about in the americas?
My philosophy class did not talk about this, just about Plato, Aristotle, Kant, Jefferson, all people with racial superiority complex. I am beginning to appreciate more my Catholic education.
This has to be the best argument for there being no god I’ve ever heard. Thank you!
I would point out that the final Appalachian of slavery wish achieved largely due to the effects of methodist and quakers
Its interesting how the church can dismiss what jesus said about slavery, but cling on to what he said about gay marriage.
Excellently done Brian. When I saw the subject I was greatly enthused to hear your presentation. Not disappointed (as usual). By the way, I think your analogy was spot on, God taught his people gradually (and very patiently) particularly since they were so stiff-necked and hard to teach. Blessings to you and your family from down Under.
A moral system that is good will withstand scrutiny, whether or not everyone agrees with it. Even if the Nazi’s had won the war, and brainwashed all of humanity until the Jews were completely and utterly eradicated, it would still be wrong. If you want a moral system based on religion, then we have to look at the outcomes of that system and see if it’s teachings lead to objectively good or bad moral outcomes. If the moral system you are using, regardless of its original system justifies something obviously morally reprehensible, then is the system itself okay? Even though the majority of people in these time periods were okay with slavery, including Christians/Catholics/Muslims....etc. doesn’t mean it was okay then, and doesn’t let the system that justified the action off the hook. If a moral system can, at any point in its existence, justify a terrible action, that system is flawed. Thoughts?
BRILLIANT!!!!!👏👏👏👏👏👏👏
Dear Mr. Holdsworth: You can remove my comments, you can prevent me from commenting under my usual screen name, and you can do many other things to try to stop me, and you can do many other things to try stop me. Short of having me having me banned from the internet, you aren't going to completely stop me from posting somewhere.
I never delete comments. If your comment isn't showing up it's because UA-cam, a glutinous, greedy, corporate monopoly thought your contribution was beneath its standards of tolerable human discourse and automatically censored it (which they do).
Jesus Christ teaches repentance for everyone
Including the Churches
3:28 shouldn’t God’s chosen people be held to a higher standard than what the heathens around them were up to?
Keep in mind, this was a nation that supposedly had an intimate relation with the creator of the universe, the source of goodness itself, which is unchanging. What’s evil yesterday doesn’t become good tomorrow.
And yet, they could do no better than the people around them on the topic of slavery...
People STILL need to be told that murder is wrong, we're no better than the people in Moses' times, we've merely had better education, thanks to our old culture being built upon the Christian Faith. What is right and wrong is so context sensitive that we are definitely in no position to judge slavery; after all, we enslave our spirits and the spirits of our young with this depraved modern culture where nothing is real, men can be women and women can be men and a thousand other things that don't exist. We teach our daughters to dress and act like harlots and then we judge the Muslims for teaching their women to dress modestly. What atheists do not understand is that they do NOT have the authority on good and evil, that belief was the very original sin that cast us out of the garden, and we STILL to this day practice that very same original sin.
You think today we are more moral?
In many places in the world: people are literally dying in hunger, sickness and other problems
In a modern places in this same small world: Yeaaa! We're so happy we're going to Mars.
(Also keep in mind we have fastest and safest means of communication, safety, social security, health care, different services, technological and medical advantages etc. many revolutionary things and yet rich people don't find it *interesting enough* to train & employ poor people which could make this world a better place..)
Ok, seems you have a heart when it comes to state run slavery, but what do you call US Prison slavery?
If God was against slavery, then why did God instruct the Israelites to enslave the Amalekites?
If this is really a curriculum, isn't this on par with instructing chemistry students to stick their hands in concentrated hydrofluoric acid to see what happens? God literally told them to do the very thing they were not supposed to do numerous times on a massive scale, and these instructions by God were for thousands of years used to defend the continuation of doing the very thing they were not supposed to do. Yes, people back in those days were using the Bible to say, "Look, the bible defends slavery, as it even instructs us exactly how to do it."
Great información but "heretics" were free game
I hope you guys read the Bible for yourselves on that specific slavery part
Brian is focusing on the Israelites slavery between themselves... it is true that as an Israelite you could take another Israelite as a slave but you had to treat him well and pay him and release him after 6 years
It is also said that you should take slaves from different countries and you could do as you pleased with them because they were your property!! How can you use that analogy with Maths when it is completely different.
In this case, you have a clear description on how you should treat well your brothers Israelites but on the other hand you can do whatever you want with slaves you take from different countries as they are your property... you can beat them with a rod as long as they don't die. If they can stand up within few days, it's fine.
And here are the references so you can read for yourselves:
Exodus 21: 1-26
Leviticus 25: 44-46
You have more of them but this is a good place to start