I loved my Pass Labs XVR1 crossover. They have become highly sought after. I ended up selling mine for more than I paid for it new. I just couldn’t justify buying a whole second box to upgrade to a3 way. I had a look at Marchands crossovers. They do look interesting
Signal conversion is not necessarily lossy. A balanced signal is nothing more than a signal with it's own ground that is totally isolated from the traditional audio ground. Simply pulling one lead of a balanced signal to ground is all that is needed to "convert" balanced to single-ended. Plus - for all the "class a audio snobs" (I can be one of those at times)... All your balanced signals are ultimately converted back to single-ended anyway. Finally... balanced really only is of advantage over single-ended when distance between the gear comes into play (the actual point for which it was created). Isolated ground and differential signals came into play when long runs of signal-level audio ran side-by-side with noisy high power cables carrying lots of current. A few pieces of gear 24-36 inches apart does not really need a balanced signal. Finally.. them op-amps. They are all single-ended output to begin with. To keep a balanced signal from end-to-end means twice the number of components between you and the music. So again.. the only real advantage to differential signals is when you gotta send that signal over any considerable distance. Other examples of this: ethernet network cables, CAN bus networks (in your automobile), USB and HDMI. Each of these examples are differential signals that operate in the megahertz range and FAR more susceptible to RF and EMF interference - hence the implementation. Regarding the xover... there would be a huge issue in implementing a "fully differential" crossover, heres why: First, the components for a pre-set crossover must be very carefully matched. This is already a large chore when dealing with just a 3 way crossover. If you were to make this fully-differential, you must not only deal with matching twice the components, but you are also going to deal with significantly more intermodulation distortion. Not only this, but (and I am not an EE here) by the very nature of a xover - any RC filtering network needs the whole signal in order to actually work. In other words: to split the frequencies, the RC network must have the entire ac cycle in order to perform its function. I myself have built a dozen or so active xovers for myself over the years (the first thing that gets gutted from every new set of Martin Logans I buy is the passive xover components) and can tell you: some of the finest designs I have come across have never even mentioned "differential signal" throughout the crossover due to the insanity and poor implementation that would have to follow. The only way this would likely be possible (and again, I am not an EE) to my understanding would be: two single-eneded crossovers for each pass-band that are 180 degrees out of phase. Once again - I would rather not imagine the intermodulation distortion that would result in such an implementation. Finally... discreet vs integrated.. I personally have done some comparison a few years back interchanging some discreet op amps with top-shelf IC and personally have never noticed anything miraculous. Just like comparing various IC's, each has it's own character, high points and low points. To be honest, for a xover design (where the matching of each component is more crucial than ever) - it is very hard (if not impossible) to find a dozen discreet op amps that have ALL been hand-matched across-the-batch. IC's actually shine here as they are (each and every one) produced with laser-precision over-and-over across the entire batch and hence - much more consistent when you need a couple dozen in your xover. Nice JR gear, BTW.
You have just described exactly why I like differential design. Mirror images give my mind better symmetry. You are exactly correct . My parts are painstakingly precision matched and there are dual signal paths 180 degrees out of phase from one another .. The only time I convert from differential to SE is when I put in a SE amplifier , all other times my rig is 100% differential from the source to the speaker driver, meaning my amplifier pushes and pulls my speaker driver back and forth each way. . whats trhe benefit ? 6db of gain and ZERO noise EVER. I do not have time for noise in my rig. and I switch things around many times, so I want it to be dead nuts quiet each time I unmute her. Ic s have glare , so I do not like silicon chips in my analog stage . but yes, you understandf differential much more than the regular listener does... Thanks for your feedback !
part of it is the number of poles available in an opamp, due to silicon limits, etc. the Sparko labs opamps, small surface mount discrete in design, have a dual pole system, for better transient control. which can make all the difference. it's not just the limitations of the silicon, it's the inherent pole limit.
@@OCDHIFiGuy but they are extensively modded with Duelund and Mundorf caps, Audionote tantalum resistors, Dact attenuators, replaced opamps in xm29, neotech copper and Jupiter silver wire. The xm9 hangs from low output from xm26. This way I have 3 way, I will add another way with a 8 inch sealed between ripoles and horns Aer bd3. The improvement from standard components is very big.
The only thing that's crazy is your opinion on op amps and glare. What is glare, by the way? I've designed my crossover board around op amps and have been using it for months. I sincerely invite you to visit and listen. Discrete components are unnecessary and always measure inferior to chip components. After all, it's mostly the same circuit in both, but far less losses within a compact enclosure of a chip.
Glare is the sound on piano that gets you right in the neck meat. It's a certain sheen. I understand monolithic devices measure better, but I wanted to try "old school" discreet components just to compare. Do you sell a product ?
Thanks Shazad. Component matching is done not by any specification or method. It is knowing which Brand or model goes with which, and for what. In other words if I'm working with someone on thier rig and its too sharp sounding, and hes using B&W and Krell I need to know what the room is like because if it's all hard surfaces I treat it different than if its carpet and furniture with no windows. This is the part that really gives aufio professionals value because these things come from experience only. There is no way to put it into a packaged method since all elements are variable and change with every new model released. The basic idea is there are 2 types of component sound, sharp and soft. You must be able to balance the two to get a full frequency balance. Then you fine tune it one way for another for personal taste. Cheers !
With xm44 which is in photo you can also adjust delays in analog way and permits also notch's, I'm xm9 or xm26 you can't. The xm29 can also do assymetric crossover
Hi Micky when I save the money I want one built. Not as big but same design. I waited my whole life to find something like this. Where to go for more info?
Not fixed xover, instead using rotary network? OPA1612s have such insane low noise and distortion good luck trying to get even close using discrete. Btw the boad thickness makes zero difference it's not a power amp.
one mans struggle is a nother mans sadhana. I love to tune an audio rig.. Nothing is more enjoyable for me.. I am exploring the audio cosmos.. so I'll spend hundreds of thousands more before I die .. power as in watts means nothing to me..
I loved my Pass Labs XVR1 crossover. They have become highly sought after. I ended up selling mine for more than I paid for it new. I just couldn’t justify buying a whole second box to upgrade to a3 way. I had a look at Marchands crossovers. They do look interesting
*Marchand crossovers are simply top-notch, I have XM-9 (circa 2005) quad-amped to Mirage M3si*
Yes , you are correct.
Marchand Prices are insane!
well, For a finished unit in a box, maybe not that bad
@@wesselingaudiodesign5031 the quality is top-notch, used to come assembled OR kit form
I love the way you think about audio and build quality. I definitely think alike.
I appreciate that!
Thats how I do it, but with lower end gear and a DSP processor. Still sounds amazing compared to what it was before.
love the super thick board. shows real knowledge of the physics
Makes sense to a third grader wouldn't it ?? lol..
Signal conversion is not necessarily lossy. A balanced signal is nothing more than a signal with it's own ground that is totally isolated from the traditional audio ground. Simply pulling one lead of a balanced signal to ground is all that is needed to "convert" balanced to single-ended. Plus - for all the "class a audio snobs" (I can be one of those at times)... All your balanced signals are ultimately converted back to single-ended anyway. Finally... balanced really only is of advantage over single-ended when distance between the gear comes into play (the actual point for which it was created). Isolated ground and differential signals came into play when long runs of signal-level audio ran side-by-side with noisy high power cables carrying lots of current. A few pieces of gear 24-36 inches apart does not really need a balanced signal. Finally.. them op-amps. They are all single-ended output to begin with. To keep a balanced signal from end-to-end means twice the number of components between you and the music. So again.. the only real advantage to differential signals is when you gotta send that signal over any considerable distance. Other examples of this: ethernet network cables, CAN bus networks (in your automobile), USB and HDMI. Each of these examples are differential signals that operate in the megahertz range and FAR more susceptible to RF and EMF interference - hence the implementation. Regarding the xover... there would be a huge issue in implementing a "fully differential" crossover, heres why: First, the components for a pre-set crossover must be very carefully matched. This is already a large chore when dealing with just a 3 way crossover. If you were to make this fully-differential, you must not only deal with matching twice the components, but you are also going to deal with significantly more intermodulation distortion. Not only this, but (and I am not an EE here) by the very nature of a xover - any RC filtering network needs the whole signal in order to actually work. In other words: to split the frequencies, the RC network must have the entire ac cycle in order to perform its function. I myself have built a dozen or so active xovers for myself over the years (the first thing that gets gutted from every new set of Martin Logans I buy is the passive xover components) and can tell you: some of the finest designs I have come across have never even mentioned "differential signal" throughout the crossover due to the insanity and poor implementation that would have to follow. The only way this would likely be possible (and again, I am not an EE) to my understanding would be: two single-eneded crossovers for each pass-band that are 180 degrees out of phase. Once again - I would rather not imagine the intermodulation distortion that would result in such an implementation. Finally... discreet vs integrated.. I personally have done some comparison a few years back interchanging some discreet op amps with top-shelf IC and personally have never noticed anything miraculous. Just like comparing various IC's, each has it's own character, high points and low points. To be honest, for a xover design (where the matching of each component is more crucial than ever) - it is very hard (if not impossible) to find a dozen discreet op amps that have ALL been hand-matched across-the-batch. IC's actually shine here as they are (each and every one) produced with laser-precision over-and-over across the entire batch and hence - much more consistent when you need a couple dozen in your xover. Nice JR gear, BTW.
You have just described exactly why I like differential design. Mirror images give my mind better symmetry. You are exactly correct . My parts are painstakingly precision matched and there are dual signal paths 180 degrees out of phase from one another .. The only time I convert from differential to SE is when I put in a SE amplifier , all other times my rig is 100% differential from the source to the speaker driver, meaning my amplifier pushes and pulls my speaker driver back and forth each way. . whats trhe benefit ? 6db of gain and ZERO noise EVER. I do not have time for noise in my rig. and I switch things around many times, so I want it to be dead nuts quiet each time I unmute her. Ic s have glare , so I do not like silicon chips in my analog stage . but yes, you understandf differential much more than the regular listener does... Thanks for your feedback !
part of it is the number of poles available in an opamp, due to silicon limits, etc. the Sparko labs opamps, small surface mount discrete in design, have a dual pole system, for better transient control. which can make all the difference. it's not just the limitations of the silicon, it's the inherent pole limit.
Marchand makes great crossovers, i have xm26 and xm9
Terrific!
@@OCDHIFiGuy but they are extensively modded with Duelund and Mundorf caps, Audionote tantalum resistors, Dact attenuators, replaced opamps in xm29, neotech copper and Jupiter silver wire. The xm9 hangs from low output from xm26. This way I have 3 way, I will add another way with a 8 inch sealed between ripoles and horns Aer bd3. The improvement from standard components is very big.
holy shit man, this is going to be so sick! im excited for you brotha
Thanks man, just trying to iron out any little creases in the rig. This xover should sound killer.
@@OCDHIFiGuy so sick man. godspeed
The only thing that's crazy is your opinion on op amps and glare. What is glare, by the way?
I've designed my crossover board around op amps and have been using it for months. I sincerely invite you to visit and listen.
Discrete components are unnecessary and always measure inferior to chip components. After all, it's mostly the same circuit in both, but far less losses within a compact enclosure of a chip.
Glare is the sound on piano that gets you right in the neck meat. It's a certain sheen. I understand monolithic devices measure better, but I wanted to try "old school" discreet components just to compare. Do you sell a product ?
That is a tank armor board. Very nice !!
Can I buy that when it's done? Hahaha 😂
Of course you can !
A video on component matching would be great.
Merry Christmas in advance 🍻
Thanks Shazad. Component matching is done not by any specification or method. It is knowing which Brand or model goes with which, and for what. In other words if I'm working with someone on thier rig and its too sharp sounding, and hes using B&W and Krell I need to know what the room is like because if it's all hard surfaces I treat it different than if its carpet and furniture with no windows. This is the part that really gives aufio professionals value because these things come from experience only. There is no way to put it into a packaged method since all elements are variable and change with every new model released. The basic idea is there are 2 types of component sound, sharp and soft. You must be able to balance the two to get a full frequency balance. Then you fine tune it one way for another for personal taste. Cheers !
@@OCDHIFiGuy thanks man 🍻🍻
still wanting a DIY for this
Interesting concept..
How do you adjust for time domain differences between drivers?
I DSP
With xm44 which is in photo you can also adjust delays in analog way and permits also notch's, I'm xm9 or xm26 you can't. The xm29 can also do assymetric crossover
Your absolutely crazy....but.... in the right kind of way....Peace out!
where is the outcome video its four years now. need to see result , you got schematic ?
wish i had toys like that hahah, i got a pair of infinity sm-112s, i love em. not hi fi but it works for me
Its about the music. Not the gear. ;-)
@@OCDHIFiGuy 100%
@@OCDHIFiGuy But the gear is so much fun hahah
yeah, its fun hearing them for the first time, then improving those that need it. @@noctemrealm6013
@@noctemrealm6013 Right ??lol
Mikey, are you still using this X-over with the new board?
Hi Micky when I save the money I want one built. Not as big but same design. I waited my whole life to find something like this. Where to go for more info?
Contact me. I've got 2 more boards
BTW: What amp are you going to use for your tweeters and mid range?
Ive got no idea.
Not fixed xover, instead using rotary network? OPA1612s have such insane low noise and distortion good luck trying to get even close using discrete. Btw the boad thickness makes zero difference it's not a power amp.
Itmakes a difference to me because I dont like flimsy anything and flimsy boards bother me , its the sign of a cheap BOM
This is sick. How much power and money u gonna spend just to listen to a song? U gonna struggle with tuning these
one mans struggle is a nother mans sadhana. I love to tune an audio rig.. Nothing is more enjoyable for me.. I am exploring the audio cosmos.. so I'll spend hundreds of thousands more before I die .. power as in watts means nothing to me..
this IS what I consider essence of 11 hifi
There it is !
Have you tried Burson?
Kinki mono blocks! Have had mine sins 2016 will not trade them for anything..
You would trade for Jeff Rowland in one second flat
This isn't 4 way it's stereo 2 way.
Not the Unstuffed PCB
a notch higher would been gold traces lol
You have no idea what you are saying.
Prove me wrong then. I'm ready.