Commander Precons: Then vs Now | Magic: the Gathering
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- Опубліковано 13 чер 2024
- Drawing a line from precons THEN to precons NOW
Big thanks to game designer Daniel Holt! / imdanielholt
Kaalia: archidekt.com/decks/7488934/n...
Zedruu: archidekt.com/decks/7489950/n...
Mimeoplasm: archidekt.com/decks/7493177/n...
Riku: archidekt.com/decks/7504139/n...
Ghave: archidekt.com/decks/7421840/n...
00:00:00 - Introductions
00:03:54 - Interview
00:12:58 - Reactions
00:17:36 - The Rules
00:19:22 - Kaalia
00:32:58 - Zedruu
00:42:22 - Mimeoplasm
00:58:15 - Riku
01:05:15 - Ghave
01:11:19 - NEW Reactions
01:18:04 - Interview Part 2
01:34:06 - Final Thoughts
Check out our decklists here: edhrec.com/articles/edhrecast...
Want access to exclusive content, the Challenge the Stats spreadsheet, EDHRECast Discord, and more? Support the cast on Patreon! / edhrecast
Title sequence by Daniel Woodling / MTG Explainers: bit.ly/3982yYa
Card images courtesy of Scryfall: scryfall.com/
Elevate by LiQWYD / liqwyd
Creative Commons - Attribution 3.0 Unported - CC BY 3.0
Free Download / Stream: bit.ly/liqwyd-elevate
Music promoted by Audio Library / nw - Ігри
Honestly I hope WotC snatches up this product idea and does vintage commander deck re-releases as "Commander Remastered." Those would absolutely fly off the shelves.
Agreed. The "Commander Anthology" line could continue under that premise of modernizing the 99 of old precons.
Yes. This is the sort of thing they should do more of.
The talk about the precons being a set of puzzle pieces that work together with a few other sets of puzzle pieces, wants me to see precons get made in a modular format.
If we go from 3-5 commanders in a card's color to 5-10, each of them could get a single locked in commander with 9 cards guranteed and a set of possible commanders that each come with 30 themed cards.
I feel it would be a way to bring back a bunch of the old commander decks, but avoid repeating the mana rocks/land. Take the best 20 cards out of some of the old commander precons and use those as that module of cards in the precon.
@@kyleellis1825Highlander Gauntlet is a singleton format where each player has 6 decks and cards can’t repeat between the decks. Roll to see which deck you play each round.
@@michaelb9537 I've tried simillar games but find they are to overwhelming for most players to enjoy. So if we're going to remaster the old commanders, I'd rather they just give us the 20 core cards for each commander in a color combo and leave the mana fixing and a few staples in for the color.
The idea doesn't really work with the design philosphy of newer sets, but I think for remastering old commanders it would work, since they could avoid repeating a bunch of the same cards and give us like 3-4 variants of the deck. if you focus on the differn builds
I hope this video opens doors for you, Joey. The professionalism, dedication, and love for the game shines through as always. No doubt, we will see you design a precon eventually, if thats your goal.
My head canon for the lopsided cycle is that Zedru had a join forces card, but gave it away.
FOR REAL!!! JOEY A GOAT FR!!!
I'm mostly a lurker, but I wanted to say this might be my favorite video you've made. It's so fascinating seeing you run up against some of the challenges that a lot of people don't consider when posting grumpy "why doesn't WotC do this is the precons?" posts - and then you totally stuck the landing. Excellent work!
I would love to see a Game Knights or Shuffle up and Play episode with the re-built precons!
You should talk about it with Prof
Definitely this!
I would Absolutely Love a Video of you guys each making your own versions of a Commander Deck using the same Commander! Also to see how each of you guys build differently.
4:40 Daniel Holt has been secretly controlling my whole EDH career 😂
I started with Shorikia, built Karnstucts and recently made Zhulodok.
The ‘behind the scenes’ notes in this video were honestly fascinating. Having to balance the theme, breadth of options, reprint value, etc highlighted just how difficult it is to construct these decks in the first place, and gave me a better appreciation for the work that goes into them.
Love to see Daniel again. I really enjoyed the Commander at Home episode where you got to play with him, Olivia and Brian.
Edit: I hope Joey puts on the hat backwards whenever he brews his decks, because it's adorable and..... Now this looks like a job for him
I get Ash Ketchum vibes from this
Joey, this must have taken FOREVER to put together and the payoff was absolutely worth it. THANK YOU!
Illusions of grandeur would be a really nice reprint, mostly because it would mean removing the reserved list
Oof. So much for aiming for realistic reprints! That'd definitely get sent back to the drawing board. That Zedruu deck is tricky! :[
@@EDHRECast try Delusions of Mediocrity. It doesn't have the Reserve List restriction and sticks around longer.
Delusions of Mediocrity is a close second choice, and doesn't have the rules baggage of cumulative upkeep. It's a lot cheaper than Illusions, but the reserve list does that.
I like Delusions as an alternative but also Trancendence could be fun as a late game payoff. Does not carry the same reprint value as Illusions tho :(
Love to see a gameplay video of the EDHRECast and guest play these decks against each other^^
Cathar's Crusade in a precon is wild honestly. Like I get why you'd want to, but that is probably one that wouldn't get a pass from me if I were in like an editor position over this because of reasons Matt has mentioned with how much it is to track.
Like I can be argued down if it's otherwise a not complicated deck, but you are already tracking so many counters and then you slap down each creature brining in its own cascade of counters... Oof.
These all look like a ton of fun and Cathar's Crusade is an exciting piece to include, so even with that one note they look sweet.
Had a similar concern, Cathars' Crusade has been in C14 and C16 though so that informed the decision a lot.
@@EDHRECast y'know what fair. And like I said if it's like the big complexity point well... One card in the deck has to be the most complicated might as well be a stupidly fun one
Wait. Did Daniel just have a hand in like all the best precons!? Wow, my dude has the magic touch! Really enjoyed the interview, super interesting stuff.
this is actually one of the most brilliant videos you guys have come up with. love this concept and love the way you approached Zedruu instead of making it a deck about donating garbage.
Wow what an amazing video. Thanks for all the hard work that went into this.
I don't comment much on youtube videos, but this seems like a massive undertaking for this video and you did a good job.
Joey, I loved loved LOVED this video. It feels like you've taken your skills from Upping the Average and Precon Recon and put them to work. This would be an AMAZING series, if you went through the earlier precons. I know that it would be a big undertaking. You and Daniel would have a good excuse for regular hangs though lol.
1:08:47 - I feel you... Ghired's precon (C19) didn't even have all possible creature tokens represented on the 10 double-faced token cards that came with the deck. Bummer 😩
This is a really fun idea, wouldn’t mind to see you upgrade some of the other old precon sets too.
That was the best movie about Commander that I've ever seen. Thanks, Joey and Daniel!
This was a really fun video! I love the idea of the project, and the chat before and after is really fun and enlightening
Having started playing commander in 2011 (my first precon was Riku). I love the idea of an updated re-release of the original precons. Great job Joey.
Having not gotten through *all* of the video, let me say: this is a great idea. I look forward to this being assembled in paper (or as a half-measure, on MTGO) and played out by at least two of the EDHREC crew. I think the Professor would appreciate the vintage feel of the what you come up with, and he's not the only one.
This was such a good video, great idea and execution! Thanks for all the hard work you put into it Joey!
What the heck?! Did you and Proff coordinate this 😂😂
Fr lmao
Sick video!
I was just going to say that
The Planar Chaos dragons are here as the only existing legendary wedge creatures when the decks released. They were the "third/tertiary commander option" for the deck. Makes sense they wouldn't make the cut today, but I probably would have kept them as a nod to that.
I think you're now on the hook to do more of these, as we'll probably keep asking until the cows come home. Personally I'd like to at least see the 2013 decks, as the second attempt WotC made and another three color spread.
Damn do I love these essays. I really appreciated your final thoughts at the end - building empathy for the people behind these products is super important. And glad you got one of them involved in your shenanigans this time!
I loved the asides where you talked to us about your trials and tribulations! It was a great peak into the journey. Thank you for sharing this huge undertaking with all of us!
Joey! This video looks like it was a lot of work! Thank you! Such a fun watch!
As someone who started playing Commander with the Otrimi precon, thank you Daniel for being the reason I'm still here four years later 😅
Bravo Joseph! Job well done.
Absolutely incredible video and concept! And an interview!! Stellar work, Joey!
This needs to be a series. Joey revamping retro precons. Such a joy to watch!
ErM aktchuaLLy, CoUncIl oF 4 iS a UB card...
Jokes aside, this is top shelf commander content. You should be really proud of what you've accomplished here. Keep up the great work!
Gods, i startes commander with these. Got Ghave in high school and he is still my #1. Lunch time EVERY day, me and a bud played Ghave vs Mimioplasm. Built a Kaliaa deck for my wife later, love it.
I just love you both, what can I say :3 I would listen to Daniel all the time as he is just so positive and calming and Joey is super interactive and to the point ;) Great value in your ideas!
Was so excited to find out Daniel was lead on all my favorite precons! (Faldorn especially) amazing video and I love hearing the breakdown of these decks and the thoughts behind them. Thanks again for amazing videos!
First of all: yes, I was entertained all the way through the video! Getting Daniel's insider perspective on precon creation was very interesting!
Second: good job with the upgrades! Those updated lists definitely looked like something I'd be interested to pick up and try. Especially intrigued by your Zedruu deck, which is funny, because I hated playing that deck with a burning passion, back in the day. It was almost worse than non-functional, because it felt like it would actively contribute towards it's own demise by handing free stuff to the opponents if you engaged with the Commander's mechanics. Pretty much the only strategy that the deck could succesfully pull off to win games - at least in my hands - was "stay alive until you draw Insurrection". Not exactly a recipe for a good time if you ask me.
I don't think the original commander precons were a particularly well designed product. I have some fond memories of the summer that I bought the decks with couple of friends of mine and played them for a few weeks. But most of my memories related to the actual gameplay are pretty awful, actually. Our crew came at this product as people who had already been playing Commander for good couple of years by that point and we knew how much better things could be with competently assembled decks. Still... Thinking about these lists again after so many years definitely was a cool nostalgia trip. Thank you so much for the video!
Wow what a good work you sis pn this one Joey. Loved it!
This is a capstone in your portfolio for your application to wizards and I'm here for it.
The video was interesting, your choices were interesting, the interview was fantastic. All around home run. I hope you're real proud of this video, man. This is premium content.
I hope one day I get to play with a precon you designed, if that's something you want to go for.
Would love to see the cheap-o first draft of the Zedruu deck
I swear the words "partial Paris mulligan" legit just gave me a flashback omg
The reason those weird cards are in the decks is because back in the day those are the cards we used. They were using the decks to reprint "staples" too.
Back in the day we didnt really buy the precons to actually play them out of the box, especially against each other. They were great ways to get a good chunk of cards. Before these, the precons were janky 60 card... things... bought the blood tyrant grixis precon as i got back into magic.
So at least in my group, no one saw them as actual decks to play.
Joey your love and dedication is SO clear always, and even more so in this video. You absolutely suceeded in being both entertaining and educating in this video, thank you so much for creating such extraordinary content for the community!
Wow, this was an absolute blast to watch!! Riku has always interested me as a commander but obviously his precon is completely outdated so this new list is a good starting point to make a Riku commander deck!
Joey, if you want to try to update other precons, do it, I wanna watch that too!
Also I share Daniel’s love for Kamigawa, my favorite plane! Thank you Daniel for your work on Buckle Up, probably my favorite precon ever. Shorikai is nuuuuuuts!
I like this video, good job Joey.
This was a fun video, not just 'cause I enjoy watching you and Daniel, but it was interesting you talk through ... putting on someone else's shoes and the processes there. And I'm very impressed with the end products.
But seriously WOTC, better manabases, reprint those Battlebond lands!!!
I would love for you to do more precon sets in this format! This is such a great idea.
Very interesting video, especially the interview part, thank you both! Also looked like a really fun challenge to do, might try something like that when I have finished brewing all the commanders I find interesting *looks at the length of the list* oh yeah, so most likely never^^'
i know this was a huge undertaking but joey, i would LOVE to see this for the other old precons.
This made me realize how cool it would be to have the original C11 decks on my shelf.
Thanks Daniel! When I started back in 2005 when I was 11, Champions of Kamigawa was still fresh out there. Kamigawa has always been my favorite magic location. Thank you for being insistent that we go back there!
The "can't cut original cards" was a restriction that I thought was a little too much. But that may just be my opinion.
I absolutely love this video idea! I’m not sure if there’s going to be more videos with some of the other older precons as thus seemed like a ton of work, but wow was this just fun to hear Joey go through his explanation of his process! I’m really hoping that WotC does something like this.
Joey being worried about tokens in Precons, yet the "Virtue and Valor" Selesnya precon does not even contain all of the enchantment tokens 😂😂😂
The red Court of Embereth from WOC doesn't even have a matching token anywhere that I could find. It makes 3/1 Red Knight creature tokens on your upkeep, and I guess you're just supposed to... uh... make your own?
This was a fantastic concept and execution! I would love to see this done again with the first few years of precons if not become a full series! It’s a nice new twist on upgrading precons with having to consider tokens and duplicates across decks. Also it’s a nice peak behind the curtain of designing a compelling precon, if an unofficial one.
14:41 Something to note about Numot in Zedruu, All of the OG Precons included the cycle of Planar Chaos Dragons because they hadn't been printed since then and these precons were the perfect place to reprint the few number of Wedge Color Commanders
That said Ruination was in these precons so maybe Land Destruction was something the designers were thinking about lol
Great video Joey! 💕 This was truly a monumental undertaking. The reserved list card and baldurs gate cards aside. You did a heckin' great job. I have been eyeing Riku for a while and had this conundrum as well thinking about a potential build. But if your deck had been on a shelf in my lgs I probably would have that as my first temur commander now.
I especially love how you did Zedru and had her not just give away stuff that would want new players quitting the game. Awww man I really loved this video. Gavin have a series with Melissa and it would be fun to have all you guys talking precons at some point. That would probably one of the best mtg videos ever made. Love this!❤
This was a fantastic approach. I would love to see you take this same approach for other older precons. I also hope that y’all do a gameplay episode with the updated decks
Thanks for this great video :-)
Something i'd love to see is seeing 2024's ideas in the time these precons came out. So with only the cards that were released as these precons were new. Sounds fun to see how it would look with a more direct vision that could have been actual decks from the time!
Your comment on the Zedruu deck remake’s initial cost makes me think Zedruu might just be a solid budget commander to build! Always appreciate the insight!
I don’t play Commander, but this video was very interesting for me. And I hope that Wizards sees it and calls you up to do this Commander 2011 Remastered, you deserve it! Maybe I will build up one of these lists for myself while I wait…
This was an awesome watch and something id love to see done for the next couple sets of commander precons (as someone who started with the 2013 decks, they were only slightly better than the 2011 decks)
Would love to see how you'd re-tune my boy Marath!
please keep these going with the next precon set!
Ghave m' Boy 💚🥺. Got me feeling all kinds of nostalgic!!! Great vid.
One of the best parts (seriously) is you raging against the rules you made 🤣
THIS episode has been very useful to me! I have (no joking) ALL commander precons on my shelf. I have been looking back to the very first precons (also 2014 and 2015) and have been wondering "how" to rebuild them in their own themes and this video is perfect for that project. I think I'll copy your approach, minus the reprint value part and make my own version for my play group. Thanks Joey!
I've known about these commanders for years, but you've made me want to build a couple of them.
comment engagement, you deserve it for a 90 minute video!
I wish they would actually do this, the lists look dope, and like as a newer commander player itd be super fun to pickup newer versions of old precons.
Kinda want to build/assemble that "Remastered Mimeoplasm Precon". It looks amazing! 🔥
Riku was my first edh deck, spellslinger, and this is a great deck. Overall a very fun challenge!
little mistake with Council of Four in Zedruu... you mentioned no universes beyond a few seconds before, and it's from Baldur's Gate :P
D'oh :(
Love this deck building restriction, think I will give this a go with Derevi the "Evasive Maneuvers" deck as that was my first pre-con.
56:42 "You can't keep editing things forever."
A lesson George Lucas never learned. 😔
Are Universes Beyond cards really that much of a problem in Precons? I saw you added Brainstealer Dragon to Kaalia which is originally from a Baldurs Gate Precon and then was reprinted in OTJ. So they seem to be willing to do it! Would be fund to see your Zedru with all the D&D additions that you left out now! :)
Hearing Joey say “Super Double Up” really threw me for a loop
Looking at your upgraded mimeoplasm list honestly makes me want to build my own mimeoplasm deck
I have been thinking about the problem you were having with the angels in the Kaalia deck, and I think I found a solution, at least for the manacharged dragon. You would probably still wanna remove the attack trigger angels, but putting something like Clockwork Dragon or Rakdos the Defiler in, with very negative attack triggers, would show the new player how that interaction works, thereby teaching them how that interaction works with the mana charged dragon.
Amazing video as always so far! I'll comment any other ideas I have below this.
Joey is in Seattle, he is hanging out with Wizards commander design team, he’s showing off his deck building skills while conforming to strict rules set in place. Figured it out, Joeys getting a job designing commander decks for Wizards
For the lands, I still think this would be a good exercise to set the precedent of including the Battlebond style lands in precons. (As they rightfully should be!) I do understand your decision not to, even though I would windmill slam every last one I could.
Fun video!
You should revisit it shortly in two years to see how it would've survived the usual lag between design and release. Especially on the reprint front, compared to the average value of precons in two years.
Started commander on karador - used it a bunch in cedh and ran ghave for a long time. Recently came back and made full lists of both without combos and man navigating that is dificult but i LOVE both off them
I love this video so much and I would absolutely love to see you do the 2013 commander decks. Because that is when I got my start into the format
One way to tackle the original printings in these decks would be for you to propose some simple changes to each card to more fit the theme, for example for the avatar to change it to have different creature type, give it flying etc.
We need all precons like this as far as older go. That would make a difference in terms of power in playgroups
Giving my engagement guess now. Having played it out of the box, built it more than once and taken it apart every time: Ghave.
Ghave breathes too hard and goes infinite. I love going infinite but if you go with a precon Ghave and want to avoid that you might have to make it so far off the beaten path that keeping its power in line with the other precons may be a struggle.
I love the comparison between Bojuka Bog and Rest in Peace. I'd add the comparison between Strip Mine and Armageddon.
I love love love this~ Thanks so much guys for doing this~ Also, can we ship them? So awesome and so cute~
Also you should do all of the annual sets! My first ever pre con was Meren from 2015! I remember buying the Ob Nixilis precon and smushing them together and it was super fun!
It's interesting to hear the silver bullet comment. Given recent precons I was assuming the opposite; there have been a bunch of specific hate. Deep Clue Sea's anti-goad card comes to mind there.
I'd love to see a pod of these 5 decks play tested against each other.
The aminatou deck and the inalla deck were actually some of my favorites, because tje side commanders that weren't in line with the face card's strategy, nowadays a precon is "this strategy you wanted, this is how you do it" versus a tool kit that awakens new strategies and thought processes. I guess thats what the commander legends stuff is for, but I crave the old legends that aren't just "cycling, the payoff," or "here's a cohesive plan for pirates"
I had to work to make mairsil and aminatou fun and cool
This is the amount of Joey we need but not the amount of Joey we deserve.
I think the main reason all the planar chaos dragons were in those decks is that they wanted each deck to have 3 potential commanders and back in the day there just weren't very many wedge-colored legendary creatures available
Stellar! Next video is a gameplay with these decks? 🤩
Thank you, Thank you, THANK YOU for Neon Dynasty!
This video was awesome!
Also, I hope you pop into Mugu Games in Everett on a random Saturday, heard you're in the greater Seattle area and the shop is full of fans. Could be a fun excuse to get into the field and explore what different shop metas are like and what people are playing.
I loved this video, and I totally understand that this video and team-up wasn't to be used as an excuse to vent or complain to Daniel..
... but on this show, you guys question SO OFTEN why the lands that check for more than one opponent, obviously designed for the four-player commander format, aren't in commander decks. I'm curious why that wasn't even jokingly brought up with Daniel. :P
Great video, though, I loved seeing it. It would be really cool if you, Matt, and Dana could grab a fourth and play a couple of rounds with these to see how you did!