It’s the way the knife was designed. Modify it to get the geometry that fits your preference, or don’t modify it and buy something that has more favorable blade geometry.
@@ylimehajile 😅Yes we agree, but not about all the points in the video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but laying back the edge would actually leave it thicker behind the edge, not thinner. Sure it would still be slicier, but the same could be achieved by knocking off the shoulders (i.e. almost 'convexing' the edge) with less effort and less steel removed. Now I wouldn't actually bother doing that. I love my Inkosi just the way it is, and I love my Chaparral just the way it is. They're similar in size but they're completely different beasts. And as I strop them their edges gradually get a little bit convexed😲 but that don't bother me😉
Good video; however, not sure I understand why a couple of times you say “if” you get a convexed edge from CRK. They are all intentionally sharpened by CRK with a convex edge. (Like Bark River and others.)
I believe she’s talking about convexing the secondary bevel/edge grind either through stropping/touch up or intentionally on the tip to slim out the edge thickness. Bark River’s have a full convex grind from the start of the primary bevel all the way to a zero degree edge or in other words they curve (convex) all the way down to the edge and do not have a secondary bevel/edge. Esee and some other Bushcraft oriented brands use a a convex grind on their secondary bevel/edge which would be similar to what she’s describing.
I intentionally convex all of my EDC knives. A convex primary edge is more durable, provides better edge retention and has better feathersticking ability. I’m not slicing tomatoes. If my largest concern was sliceyness, I would carry a case or an opinel exclusively. Instead I carry a more durable knife as my EDC on waistband and case medium stockman in my pocket, for if by chance I need to cut an apple or something. The sheepsfoot blade on the case will out slice any $200 knife, it’s basically a box cutter.
The Sharpmaker makes quick work of this. Make sure to get the CBN stones to take off the material quickly. Works like a charm. Don’t press to hard, turn on a movie and make it 15 degrees (“30 degree back bevel” on the Sharpmaker) followed by 20 degree (“40 degree edge” on the Sharpmaker). Thanks for the video. Totally agree for daily use as a slicer. For utility, just use the “40 degree edge” and keep it the way it was designed. The CRK large insingo PJ or CF front is a great bushcraft knife - that you can fold. Yeah - if you want to split wood - use and axe.
I also have the same small 31 and went beyond what you did and completely ground off the bevel shoulder on a Venev course stone and took the blade down to basically a zero edge with probably 10 degree or lower edge, solved the problem for me and the knife cuts like a dream
Honestly you just have to get rid of the convex edge. You don’t even need to go down to 15. Chris Reeve are about the same thickness behind the edge as any other average Spyderco or Benchmade maybe a couple thou difference. It’s just they convex the edge so much that it’s not an edge anymore it’s just a wedge
I agree fully here. I’ve both large and small 31’s, both in S35. Lovely knives, but not the best design in the world! However, the edge issues are a pain. I had to re-profile them both from new. The steel is soft enough to do it easily, but it needs done.
Yeah honestly, I don't see any reason to spend more than I would on a benchmade or spyderco. If I really want it nice I can buy titanium scales/ hardware later. The bugout and pm2 just seem better as it is than these $400-$500 knives
Sadly, a flat grind isn't the answer. either design can be ground far too thick. A hollow grind can arguably out slice a flat grind, but at the expense of strength. It's all in the grind. I would re-grind my Sebenza in a heart beat (and re- heat treat it), if that dayumed thumb stud was removeable rather than bradded into place. I have re-ground my BenchMade Bugout to a 8thou behind the edge and it is amazing how it now cuts. I do wish reviewers would get their terminology correct. It was stated here that the blade designs were the same. They are not eve close to the same. Nor are either of the as stated, a drip point. The CR is a clip point and the Bm is a spear point. Just because the clip or swage is not sharpened does not change the fact that the CR is basically a modern clip point. A drop point cannot drop more than a max of one third of the tip. Usually only one quarter. The tip of the bugout is almost centered. KnifeMaker
@@chimchu3232 CRKs are made way nicer. Not a fanboy of CRK but ive owned 2 sebenzas and a large inkosi. Far nicer than any benchmade ive owned. Benchmades imo have poor QC. Ive had maybe 6 benchmades and atleast 4 of them have had some stupid problem out of the box.
@@Phaminator525 I have 4 spydercos and 2 benchmades, and I haven't seen any quality control issues whatsoever. I've heard of people having them, but I've also heard people having qc issues with crk and hinderer. I think it can happen with any brand, and to each their own, I'm not judging anybody. I mean, I spent over $300 on the spyderco pm3 in my pocket right now, so who am I to judge 😆 just for me personally, I like spyderco designs more and I'd rather spend 300-400 pimping out a spyderco than buying a stock crk.
@@chimchu3232 ive only heard of very few incidents from CRK. But anyways im not talking about quality control when it comes to CRK. Im talking about build quality itself. Everything about their knives are just build perfect. Although i do prefer the spydiehole to CRKs thumbstuds. But build quality and design cannot be compared. I love my spyderco pm2 but i know the difference in quality when i feel it.
It’s like they sharpen the bevels at the factory on a round grinding wheel. It took me so long to pull the bevels flat. Sold all my CRK and it’s sad because I also love the design.
To say I am a huge Chris Reeve fan would be an understatement - I have 16 variants of all of the CRK’s - I just love them. I love the softer steel, no knife ever made matches the construction, quality and service but you are correct that they require a nice crisp V - I use my Lansky (also have A KME) but my large Inkosi and Sebenza daily carry can pop hair from the tip to the heel and light stropping has kept them that way for years. I do get annoyed when people insist that knives have to have the newest steel of the hour - they don’t and these softer treatments of CRK on their S35 and 45 are so easy to keep crazy sharp once you have that V.
I always reprofile any CRK I get. I love sebenzas, but you're absolutely right about their bevels. A few of mine had over grounded heels as well. My shirogorov blade is absolutely perfect.
Oy.... Of course a thicker blade that's thicker bte isn't going to slice as well as a thin blade that's thin bte. That's not a flaw in the Sebenza -- it's a feature. And for the record, the Bugout isn't particularly thin bte, either. In fact, my Sebenza 31 (large) has almost exactly the same thickness bte as my Bugouts, after laying all of them back to 15°. But because the Seb has a deep hollow grind, it will keep that thickness way longer than the Bugout will. The flat-ground Bugout will get thicker bte every time you sharpen it. My understanding is that CRK intentionally convexes their edges for greater strength. If you don't like it ... sharpen it however you want. I put a flat bevel on mine and it will absolutely tree-top arm hair. Don't ever expect a knife to have a great edge straight from the factory. I've put dozens of factory edges on my BESS tester, ranging from $25 Chinese knives to $600 mid-techs. This includes knives from Spyderco, BM, CRK, Quiet Carry, Tactile, Vero, Reate, WE, etc. Literally none of them were what I consider sharp, although I admittedly have a very high standard. And to be fair, only one of them was what I consider *dull* (looking at you, Tactile Knife Co.).
I feel the sebenza really shines with the large. The geometry behind the edge is much better compared to the small. Also the insingo is definitely thinner behind the edge near the front. But I agree these knives are not perfect. I finally got a 31 large and it’s the first CRK (own 5 currently and have had 7 total) that I’ve ever owned that came with an edge I was happy with out of the box
Couldn’t agree more. The small I have….I knew from the second I opened the box it’d be a stay at home knife. The large…is arguably one of the best knives ever.
Agreed! Chris designed this blade shape and design HIMSELF with a grinder and stone to fit the "Large" size dimensions. When simply scaled down to the "Small" size you get issues like what Erica is pointing out. It sucks that CRK has not refined the "Small" dimensions as well as the "Large".
You nailed it ! I just got a new Sebenza 25 birth-date Jan. 2014 the quality and so smooth out of the box so much fo CRK grease dries up. Today's Sebenza is a shadow of the older ones. Great video !
It's been years since I read this, so I don't remember the source(s), but the convex edge from the factory is done intentionally, so all Sebenzas will "suffer from this problem" (in reference to hearing Erica saying "IF your Sebenza comes with a convex edge" a couple of times throughout this video). As others have speculated, laying back the edge on Sebenzas makes such a big (positive) difference to its cutting ability because not only do more acute angles cut better, but the process of laying back the edge removes a lot of material, thus reducing the "convex-ness" of the edge, turning it more into a V bevel (which also further improves cutting ability). In contrast, since most other knives come from the factory with V bevel, by laying back the edge, you are only benefitting from the more acute edge angle.
Really, the sliceyness of a blade is determined more by the thinness behind the secondary edge more so than the angle of the primary edge. If you’re not willing to sharpen and thin the secondary edge (which is necessary over time on any knife after years of sharpening) than you aren’t treating it as a tool in the first place. If you looked at your grandfathers pocket knife, he probably thinned the knife on the secondary edge. This was common practice with the old timers as was illustrated in The Razors Edge Book of Sharpening. Those old men made better use of their slipjoints thanks 99% of “EDC” people, yet most scoff at the idea of doing such a thing. My father was a butcher by trade and guess what? His knives were always thinned when necessary. If you want sliceyness, thin the knife with subsequent sharpenings. End of story.
I'd take this a step further and say people who want better slicing should thin *behind* the edge, not just *at* the edge. It's totally doable to do a regrind by hand on stones. That behind the edge geometry will support a wider edge angle while still slicing well. If this feels too risky, a 10° (or whatever your guided sharpener's minimum is, if you use one) bevel can be created, with a broader (say, 17°) microbevel. A compound bevel, essentially.
Tl;dr yup I had the exact same experience and ended up with the exact same results I got my Small 21 back in 2009, and 13 years ago I knew very little about grinds and bevels, and just couldn't understand why it cut so exceptionally poorly when everything else about the design and construction seemed exceptionally good. Plus, the edge bevel *looked* beautiful- curvy and mirror-polished- so obviously that meant it should have cut better, right? It didn't help that I was shit at sharpening too. So when the blade eventually dulled, I did indeed end up carrying it mostly as pocket jewelry, and not cutting much with it. A couple years ago I finally picked up one of the Work Sharp angle-guided systems, and was thrilled that it was simple enough that I could suddenly sharpen my knives myself. I also learned that for my mostly slicey, light-duty EDC needs, a shallower angle was what I wanted. So once I threw the Sebenza in there and got to work at 15*, I was astonished to realize just how much steel I was taking off to reprofile the edge- first to knock down the convex, then to broaden out the way-too-steep factory angle, and then finally to push back the super thick grind near the tip. I finally ended up with a super flat, super broad edge bevel that looks almost exactly like yours, just shittier. The knife now cuts like a goddamn laser, with the additional benefit that my mediocre skills and total lack of patience for sharpening left a pretty toothy finish that is a lot more useful than the super-smooth factory edge. This is one of the few areas where I think CRK has leaned too much into the image of the luxury objects they have become, and not the tools they had started out being. Everything about the shiny, glassy, sexy factory bevel suggests a focus on aesthetics, not function. Luckily, as you say, this is something you can easily fix at home. And also luckily, the rest of the knife remains near-perfect with little else that needs fixing.
It’s kind of baffling that CRK prides themselves on having such a deep hollow grind, yet in the end they’re still quite thick behind the edge. If toughness is their main goal then I’d almost rather just have a full flat grind with a thinner edge. It would likely provide the same toughness and get rid of the potential for material snagging on those deep hollow grind shoulders. That said, it certainly wouldn’t be as gorgeous of a blade.
@@dandildarious4849 Mine only had 1 broken spring. When both are broken, my understanding is that it wont lock, it just becomes flippy floppy. I may revisit the bugout at a later time, if I do, I will purchase aftermarket springs. It just wasnt something I wanted to deal with as my main/every day knife.
I really really want a sebenza or umnumzan, but I really want to get my hands on one first just to feel it out before getting it. I know that just handling the knife doesn't tell you shit about it but just to get an idea before dropping 450-550 on a 31. But no where any where near me has them! So i guess I'll just suffer in the mean time until I get the chance to handle one😂 Appreciate the videos! No other reviewer gets into the honest nitty gritty that comes from REAL long term use and experience like you do!
I’d say. Buy it when you can! The beauty of crk is that they keep their value really well. If you don’t like it you’ll be able to sell it at a really good price. I own a small inkosi tanto and an umnumzaan tanto and i don’t regret those knives at all!
I don't want to start a shitstorm but I have to disagree on this one. I have 3 large Sebenzas and all are sharpened to 20° per side. All slice excellent with the whole cutting edge. Maybe it's a different case with the smalls?
A larger blade gives way more room for the blade geometry to thin out. You have more surface area. Of course it’s going to move through material better. That’s just basic mathematics .
@@dthcrw_knives ok haha not sure what to tell ya at this point. Many people say slicing is tough with the small. I agree- it isn’t the best slicer. Glad that your way larger blade that is apparently the exact same, performs way better! Cheers!
@@ericasedc of course they are not the best slicers in the world, large ones or small ones and I've never said that. Bugout with tall and thin flat grind does it better from my experience too but is just less robust.
It's funny you mention that. I reprofiled my Inkosi to 15dps just because I do that to most all my knives and love it. Didn't realize other people have problems with them because of that. Lol.
I did just that with my first small sebenza 31. I was shocked how (dull) it was. Couldn’t cut anything without wedging it open. I’m a novice sharpener so it took me no joke 4 hours on a whetstone to bring it down to push cut paper…. Definately wasn’t happy as it was my first $400+ knife, but now it’s a satisfactory cutter
Not a fan of axis lock blade play, think the better option for hard use is the zt 0640 but theyre quite thiccc. they're abit soft for 20cv but that kinda puts them on par with a good s35 heat treat...
I didn’t realize the ZT 0640 could be front flipped until after I’d had mine a while. It’s not comfortable but it’s doable and you get better at it after while. Cool knife after getting rid of the scales it came with.
Try a Buck 110 in S30V or better steel. Great heat treats, simple design, tough, work horse proven pocket knives. Also, budget friendly. Crazy sharp, great edge geometry.
@@markp4401 Yes, the Paul Bos heat treat has been one of the best in the industry for years. Because they are old school back lock knives and a bit heavier most people pass them by. I personally think they are superior to most modern knives. Tried and true. Erica should test one. Even a standard 420 HC 110 hunter model.
I just sharpend all my sebenza to 17* V edge right out of the box. It hurts me a little bit that i have to get my brand new knives dirty without ever cutting once. But after sharpening, they outperform all my other knives.
Good topic and interesting "point" haha. But I do not experience the same problem. I cut mainly wood and food and have no complains what so ever. I even sharpend my edge to 42 degrees. That gives me a usable edge for a real long time. After a few good uses it doesn't shave hair anymore but keeps its usable sharpness a long time! And, never had any chips or nicks. Thanks for sharing! BTW, may I ask what you cut mainly in a daily bases?
Thank you for speaking The Truth about blade geometry. Geometry matters, which is not a personal opinion but the truth. Real Truth does not belong to anyone person thus there is no such thing as My Truth or Your Truth...it is just the truth.
I prefer to lose the factory convex edge and sharpen to standard V bevels on my CRKs. My large 21 is at 18 dps with a 20 degree micro and cuts much better. Its also easier to touchup than having to roll the knife when using the sharpmaker with the factory convex edge.
Mine has the Insingo blade. I laid the edge back a long time ago. It cuts like a laser but the soft steel really bums me out. I though about regrinding it, but I think I will simply make a blade for it in either S90V or CPM M4. Either will far surpass the edge retention of the S35v or 45v. I did already make an D-2 at 62-63 RHc for it and it already o9utcuts the factory blades by a good margin. For the very high price for a factory knife, they could do a lot better in steel and heat treat spec's. I almost feel a bit ripped off with the performance. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that Reeves help Crucible develop the steel for knives and then fails to utilize the very properties the steel was designed for. I have a hard time understanding the draw to the knives with the ingrained shortcomings of the steel and heat treat combination. All I can figure is the Bragg factor as there are much better choices out there. KnifeMaker/Retired
Although you state the geometry is much better on the Benchmade, my experience is that you need to sharpen the Benchmade before it will hold an decent edge. Seems the majority of the owners just don't sharpen their knives very much so they probably never realize they could get it sharper. But most of them don't know how to sharpen well enough, so this dilemma exists.
What most people don’t know or realize is 90% of all mass produced knives are sharpened on a belt grinder and they end up with too much heat which is hell on the temper of the edge causing the initial edge to be weak and dull quickly most people who know call it a burned edge. Everyone should resharpen their mass produced knives before they even start to carry them.
You're absolutely right on bringing the edge down to about 15-16 degrees to get the best cutting geometry. I have several Sebenza Large 21's that are at that edge now-with polished edges for extra eye appeal too. Not a big fanboy of Benchmade...I believe their Axis lock is weak (can slip when locked open) and their politics leave much to be desired. Contributions by Benchmade to liberal politicians is not in our best interests for the 2A. I avoid Benchmade like the plague.
This is why I love my PM2 in Elmax with a Krein regrind to 0.005 bte. Only thing I found that cut better was a cheap Joker slip joint with 2mm thick carbon steel blade and a convex zero grind with a tiny microbevel and its only by a tiny bit. It falls through cardboard, zip ties, foams and rubber. I think everyone should at least experience what a thinly ground knife like that cuts like to see what huge difference geometry plays.
I have a pair of manix 2 Tom did for me. One in cruwear and one in M4 at .008” bte and they are the thinnest and sliciest blades i own. I have some other regrinds including a PM2 in 20cv at .010” bte by MS Customs and it’s definitely hella slicey but even that extra .002 thinner makes a noticeable difference so I can only imagine .005” bte which is what I want to get next. That’s probably as thin as i would go and not gonna be for everyone durability wise but for those looking for sheer cutting performance and ease of sharpening thin geometry is the ticket! Also have some older Krein reground enduras in ZDP and vg10. Bc i just love thin and slicey! Geometry and edge angle most definitely matter more than steel type and even heat treat when it comes to cutting performance. Hell these blades will still cut when dull strictly based on the geometry!
@@jkstdstang those sound pretty sweet. Cruwear and M4 are great choices for thin grinds because of toughness and edge stability. It doesn't sound like much but that little extra thickness does make a difference in cutting ability. I wouldn't go under 0.005 on EDC or utility knives since you really have to be careful with them, especially the tip (my PM2 tip is like a needle at 0.005). I have a Robert Herder paring knife and it's the thinnest knife I own. It's 0.048 stock and it's a zero grind with just a microbevel so it's 0.002 tops. Even when dull it cuts fruits better than a regular sharp paring knife. It's the sliciest knife I've tried and so easy to sharpen and touch up. I wish Tom did more regrinds but he's been busy making knives so it's impossible to get one of his regrinds now. Not every knife needs to be that thin but it's nice to have a few when you need to cut up a bunch of stuff. My Assassin's knives Argo in M398 at 64hrc and 0.007 (the tip is a bit thicker at 0.010 for durability) gets a lot of use when I have boxes to cut up.
Spartan harsey folders are NOT good slicers. They cut well and are very sharp from factory but they are too thick to be good at slicing. The best two slicers i have found are very thin blades - the boos blades smoke and trm atom. Most people don't recognize sliciness but try cutting an apple with a thick vs thin blade and you'll see a big difference
Funny you mention the Spartan Harsey, I have a 3.25 that I've used and sharpened and love but it is thick AF behind the edge, would be better w/ a regrind
Unless the blade faces(primary grinds) are parallel(not V shaped), laying down the sharpening angle will result in a blade thicker behind the edge. Even if the grinds are parallel, the thickness behind the edge will be equal, not thinner. I don’t disagree that laying down the angle makes for a better slicer though. The secondary bevel becomes a more effective wedge with a better mechanical advantage.
I had the same issue with my umnumzaan. The belly towards the tip didn’t wanna hold the edge for a small amount of time. It would always dull so quickly
The reason behind the steel and blade style.. it’s not the best steel. They know that. That’s the intent for ease of sharpening for the regular user. The edge and blade shape are made that way so you can go years of regular sharpening before getting near too thin on the steel. Of course an pm2 or bugout will slice better buy will only last 1/4 of the life of a Sebenza blade. You also need to understand convex edge vs non. It’s not for everyone that’s for sure. A Sebenza is meant to last for life. That gets better with Time in every way. You can buy 10 bugouts or 1 Sebenza. It’s all about how you look at it. I have both. I have many knives. Somethings I like the para 3 for some the Sebenza some the bugout mini etc. if you told me I could only keep one for the rest of my life you bet your ass it’ll be the Sebenza. To each their own. Chris reeves never claimed to have the best steel the best knife for every task etc. it’s meant to last, to be easiest maintained, and to be easily sharpened that’s about it.
@@MrEric0822 it was meant to be Chris Reeves as In Chris Reeve Knives the company, I just shortened it. Hopefully I didn’t offend. Also there are way more spelling and grammar errors in my comment than that but nobody is here to spell check other peoples comments are they cause nobody has time to waste doing that.
Never had a Sebenza But my Inkosi insingo is a Cutting machine! Thanks for the heads up! Got to disagree with ya About the Harsey it slices boxes up with ease and all day long it looks like it shouldn't be it does at least mine does I just paused your vid and Put my Harsey up against Both my Bugouts And cut up 10 boxes The Harsey Put my Bugouts to Shame All will Shave hair But l think the difference is I've got XXL Hands and for me the Harsey fits perfectly and the grip l get is much better! Now when it comes to notebook paper the Bugouts win all day! Geometry is a big factor, but it isn't the only factor.
Blasphemy against the pantheon God of cutting tools..Chris Reeve, the god who blessed us his worshippers with the S35vn and the frame integral locks. 😂😂😂😂😂😂. Erica should repent and ask for forgiveness 😂😂😂😂😂😂. And indeed everyone who dares to not worship CRKs 😂😂
That’s a very narrow angle. It may slice well, but that’s not the M.O. with a hard-use knife like CRK makes. As with all knife steel and blade geometries, everything is a trade off. Whenever the knife excels in one thing, it’s guaranteed that it suffers in another category. You said it yourself..it’s a hard-use knife. Why would a hard use knife come out of the box with a dainty 15 degree angle that will chip, roll, and dull fast? It’s an overbuilt high-end folder, not a surgical tool. If you want an absolute razor, just get a different knife and save yourself all the bitching and time spent sharpening.
It’s the way the knife was designed. Modify it to get the geometry that fits your preference, or don’t modify it and buy something that has more favorable blade geometry.
Spyderco Chaparral is a super slicer and a lot 'cheaper'. Still rather carry my small Inkosi Insingo tho😁
@@ylimehajile 😅Yes we agree, but not about all the points in the video. Correct me if I'm wrong, but laying back the edge would actually leave it thicker behind the edge, not thinner. Sure it would still be slicier, but the same could be achieved by knocking off the shoulders (i.e. almost 'convexing' the edge) with less effort and less steel removed. Now I wouldn't actually bother doing that. I love my Inkosi just the way it is, and I love my Chaparral just the way it is. They're similar in size but they're completely different beasts. And as I strop them their edges gradually get a little bit convexed😲 but that don't bother me😉
Good video; however, not sure I understand why a couple of times you say “if” you get a convexed edge from CRK. They are all intentionally sharpened by CRK with a convex edge. (Like Bark River and others.)
My new one was barely convexed. My old one was REALLY convexed!
Coved is the best.
I believe she’s talking about convexing the secondary bevel/edge grind either through stropping/touch up or intentionally on the tip to slim out the edge thickness. Bark River’s have a full convex grind from the start of the primary bevel all the way to a zero degree edge or in other words they curve (convex) all the way down to the edge and do not have a secondary bevel/edge. Esee and some other Bushcraft oriented brands use a a convex grind on their secondary bevel/edge which would be similar to what she’s describing.
I intentionally convex all of my EDC knives. A convex primary edge is more durable, provides better edge retention and has better feathersticking ability. I’m not slicing tomatoes.
If my largest concern was sliceyness, I would carry a case or an opinel exclusively. Instead I carry a more durable knife as my EDC on waistband and case medium stockman in my pocket, for if by chance I need to cut an apple or something. The sheepsfoot blade on the case will out slice any $200 knife, it’s basically a box cutter.
The Sharpmaker makes quick work of this. Make sure to get the CBN stones to take off the material quickly. Works like a charm. Don’t press to hard, turn on a movie and make it 15 degrees (“30 degree back bevel” on the Sharpmaker) followed by 20 degree (“40 degree edge” on the Sharpmaker). Thanks for the video. Totally agree for daily use as a slicer. For utility, just use the “40 degree edge” and keep it the way it was designed. The CRK large insingo PJ or CF front is a great bushcraft knife - that you can fold. Yeah - if you want to split wood - use and axe.
Just bought my first CRK...a large 31 with ebony inlays & S45vn
I also have the same small 31 and went beyond what you did and completely ground off the bevel shoulder on a Venev course stone and took the blade down to basically a zero edge with probably 10 degree or lower edge, solved the problem for me and the knife cuts like a dream
How? The thumbstud seems to get in the way for me
@@jinoh7418 it never really got in the way for me even at low angles
"Remember, it is never the knife's fault." Daniel Boulud
Honestly you just have to get rid of the convex edge. You don’t even need to go down to 15. Chris Reeve are about the same thickness behind the edge as any other average Spyderco or Benchmade maybe a couple thou difference. It’s just they convex the edge so much that it’s not an edge anymore it’s just a wedge
I took my small Sebenza 31 down to 15 degrees and it is no longer a paperweight. I will be using the shit out of it now! Thanks Erica!
I agree fully here. I’ve both large and small 31’s, both in S35. Lovely knives, but not the best design in the world! However, the edge issues are a pain. I had to re-profile them both from new. The steel is soft enough to do it easily, but it needs done.
Thats why I spent the extra money buying titanium parts for my Bugout instead. Really hope they’ll offer a flat grind in the future
Yeah honestly, I don't see any reason to spend more than I would on a benchmade or spyderco. If I really want it nice I can buy titanium scales/ hardware later. The bugout and pm2 just seem better as it is than these $400-$500 knives
Sadly, a flat grind isn't the answer. either design can be ground far too thick. A hollow grind can arguably out slice a flat grind, but at the expense of strength. It's all in the grind. I would re-grind my Sebenza in a heart beat (and re- heat treat it), if that dayumed thumb stud was removeable rather than bradded into place.
I have re-ground my BenchMade Bugout to a 8thou behind the edge and it is amazing how it now cuts.
I do wish reviewers would get their terminology correct. It was stated here that the blade designs were the same. They are not eve close to the same. Nor are either of the as stated, a drip point. The CR is a clip point and the Bm is a spear point. Just because the clip or swage is not sharpened does not change the fact that the CR is basically a modern clip point. A drop point cannot drop more than a max of one third of the tip. Usually only one quarter. The tip of the bugout is almost centered.
KnifeMaker
@@chimchu3232 CRKs are made way nicer. Not a fanboy of CRK but ive owned 2 sebenzas and a large inkosi. Far nicer than any benchmade ive owned. Benchmades imo have poor QC. Ive had maybe 6 benchmades and atleast 4 of them have had some stupid problem out of the box.
@@Phaminator525 I have 4 spydercos and 2 benchmades, and I haven't seen any quality control issues whatsoever. I've heard of people having them, but I've also heard people having qc issues with crk and hinderer. I think it can happen with any brand, and to each their own, I'm not judging anybody. I mean, I spent over $300 on the spyderco pm3 in my pocket right now, so who am I to judge 😆 just for me personally, I like spyderco designs more and I'd rather spend 300-400 pimping out a spyderco than buying a stock crk.
@@chimchu3232 ive only heard of very few incidents from CRK. But anyways im not talking about quality control when it comes to CRK. Im talking about build quality itself. Everything about their knives are just build perfect. Although i do prefer the spydiehole to CRKs thumbstuds. But build quality and design cannot be compared. I love my spyderco pm2 but i know the difference in quality when i feel it.
It’s like they sharpen the bevels at the factory on a round grinding wheel. It took me so long to pull the bevels flat. Sold all my CRK and it’s sad because I also love the design.
To say I am a huge Chris Reeve fan would be an understatement - I have 16 variants of all of the CRK’s - I just love them. I love the softer steel, no knife ever made matches the construction, quality and service but you are correct that they require a nice crisp V - I use my Lansky (also have A KME) but my large Inkosi and Sebenza daily carry can pop hair from the tip to the heel and light stropping has kept them that way for years. I do get annoyed when people insist that knives have to have the newest steel of the hour - they don’t and these softer treatments of CRK on their S35 and 45 are so easy to keep crazy sharp once you have that V.
I enjoyed the convex edge at first then when i went to cut banding material at work, it wouldn’t do it, i resharpened it and it did better!
I always reprofile any CRK I get. I love sebenzas, but you're absolutely right about their bevels. A few of mine had over grounded heels as well.
My shirogorov blade is absolutely perfect.
what do you use?
Oy.... Of course a thicker blade that's thicker bte isn't going to slice as well as a thin blade that's thin bte. That's not a flaw in the Sebenza -- it's a feature. And for the record, the Bugout isn't particularly thin bte, either. In fact, my Sebenza 31 (large) has almost exactly the same thickness bte as my Bugouts, after laying all of them back to 15°. But because the Seb has a deep hollow grind, it will keep that thickness way longer than the Bugout will. The flat-ground Bugout will get thicker bte every time you sharpen it.
My understanding is that CRK intentionally convexes their edges for greater strength. If you don't like it ... sharpen it however you want. I put a flat bevel on mine and it will absolutely tree-top arm hair.
Don't ever expect a knife to have a great edge straight from the factory. I've put dozens of factory edges on my BESS tester, ranging from $25 Chinese knives to $600 mid-techs. This includes knives from Spyderco, BM, CRK, Quiet Carry, Tactile, Vero, Reate, WE, etc. Literally none of them were what I consider sharp, although I admittedly have a very high standard. And to be fair, only one of them was what I consider *dull* (looking at you, Tactile Knife Co.).
Awesome video, thanks Erica!
Thanks for watching!
I feel the sebenza really shines with the large. The geometry behind the edge is much better compared to the small.
Also the insingo is definitely thinner behind the edge near the front. But I agree these knives are not perfect.
I finally got a 31 large and it’s the first CRK (own 5 currently and have had 7 total) that I’ve ever owned that came with an edge I was happy with out of the box
Couldn’t agree more. The small I have….I knew from the second I opened the box it’d be a stay at home knife. The large…is arguably one of the best knives ever.
Agreed! Chris designed this blade shape and design HIMSELF with a grinder and stone to fit the "Large" size dimensions. When simply scaled down to the "Small" size you get issues like what Erica is pointing out. It sucks that CRK has not refined the "Small" dimensions as well as the "Large".
I love your videos, you keep it real and on point always, love your view on blades !!!! Much respect from 🇨🇦
You nailed it ! I just got a new Sebenza 25 birth-date Jan. 2014 the quality and so smooth out of the box so much fo CRK grease dries up. Today's Sebenza is a shadow of the older ones. Great video !
Take it apart and get that old grease out of there. I just made a vid about the 25.
@@nobodysreview6137 why it performs perfectly right away. 🤗
It's been years since I read this, so I don't remember the source(s), but the convex edge from the factory is done intentionally, so all Sebenzas will "suffer from this problem" (in reference to hearing Erica saying "IF your Sebenza comes with a convex edge" a couple of times throughout this video).
As others have speculated, laying back the edge on Sebenzas makes such a big (positive) difference to its cutting ability because not only do more acute angles cut better, but the process of laying back the edge removes a lot of material, thus reducing the "convex-ness" of the edge, turning it more into a V bevel (which also further improves cutting ability). In contrast, since most other knives come from the factory with V bevel, by laying back the edge, you are only benefitting from the more acute edge angle.
Really, the sliceyness of a blade is determined more by the thinness behind the secondary edge more so than the angle of the primary edge. If you’re not willing to sharpen and thin the secondary edge (which is necessary over time on any knife after years of sharpening) than you aren’t treating it as a tool in the first place. If you looked at your grandfathers pocket knife, he probably thinned the knife on the secondary edge. This was common practice with the old timers as was illustrated in The Razors Edge Book of Sharpening. Those old men made better use of their slipjoints thanks 99% of “EDC” people, yet most scoff at the idea of doing such a thing. My father was a butcher by trade and guess what? His knives were always thinned when necessary. If you want sliceyness, thin the knife with subsequent sharpenings. End of story.
I'd take this a step further and say people who want better slicing should thin *behind* the edge, not just *at* the edge. It's totally doable to do a regrind by hand on stones. That behind the edge geometry will support a wider edge angle while still slicing well.
If this feels too risky, a 10° (or whatever your guided sharpener's minimum is, if you use one) bevel can be created, with a broader (say, 17°) microbevel. A compound bevel, essentially.
Me carrying thick blade stock knives and a utility blade for slicing tasks: "I dont have such weaknesses." Lol
Yup. I usually carry an izula and a Gerber e.a.b. sometimes I carry my pm2 or shaman as well
Tl;dr yup I had the exact same experience and ended up with the exact same results
I got my Small 21 back in 2009, and 13 years ago I knew very little about grinds and bevels, and just couldn't understand why it cut so exceptionally poorly when everything else about the design and construction seemed exceptionally good. Plus, the edge bevel *looked* beautiful- curvy and mirror-polished- so obviously that meant it should have cut better, right?
It didn't help that I was shit at sharpening too. So when the blade eventually dulled, I did indeed end up carrying it mostly as pocket jewelry, and not cutting much with it.
A couple years ago I finally picked up one of the Work Sharp angle-guided systems, and was thrilled that it was simple enough that I could suddenly sharpen my knives myself. I also learned that for my mostly slicey, light-duty EDC needs, a shallower angle was what I wanted. So once I threw the Sebenza in there and got to work at 15*, I was astonished to realize just how much steel I was taking off to reprofile the edge- first to knock down the convex, then to broaden out the way-too-steep factory angle, and then finally to push back the super thick grind near the tip. I finally ended up with a super flat, super broad edge bevel that looks almost exactly like yours, just shittier. The knife now cuts like a goddamn laser, with the additional benefit that my mediocre skills and total lack of patience for sharpening left a pretty toothy finish that is a lot more useful than the super-smooth factory edge.
This is one of the few areas where I think CRK has leaned too much into the image of the luxury objects they have become, and not the tools they had started out being. Everything about the shiny, glassy, sexy factory bevel suggests a focus on aesthetics, not function. Luckily, as you say, this is something you can easily fix at home. And also luckily, the rest of the knife remains near-perfect with little else that needs fixing.
Get the new magnacut in a different blade shape and large. I think it would fix your problems.
Sounds like you bought a work truck and expected it to drive like a Ferrari lol.
I recommend to watch the video from BladeHQ: Chris Reeve: Shop Tour. Chris explains why he grinds the way he does.
It’s kind of baffling that CRK prides themselves on having such a deep hollow grind, yet in the end they’re still quite thick behind the edge. If toughness is their main goal then I’d almost rather just have a full flat grind with a thinner edge. It would likely provide the same toughness and get rid of the potential for material snagging on those deep hollow grind shoulders. That said, it certainly wouldn’t be as gorgeous of a blade.
The tanto version doesn't thicken up behind the edge toward the tip. It's thinner at the corner than the drop point is at the belly.
Heh, I bought my Sebenza after my nearly $300 Bugouts apex springs broke within 12 days. 😂 High five to Cabelas no BS return policy
Can you still deploy the knife when the springs break?
@@dandildarious4849 Mine only had 1 broken spring. When both are broken, my understanding is that it wont lock, it just becomes flippy floppy. I may revisit the bugout at a later time, if I do, I will purchase aftermarket springs. It just wasnt something I wanted to deal with as my main/every day knife.
I really really want a sebenza or umnumzan, but I really want to get my hands on one first just to feel it out before getting it. I know that just handling the knife doesn't tell you shit about it but just to get an idea before dropping 450-550 on a 31. But no where any where near me has them! So i guess I'll just suffer in the mean time until I get the chance to handle one😂
Appreciate the videos! No other reviewer gets into the honest nitty gritty that comes from REAL long term use and experience like you do!
I had both and kept the zaan
I’d say. Buy it when you can! The beauty of crk is that they keep their value really well. If you don’t like it you’ll be able to sell it at a really good price. I own a small inkosi tanto and an umnumzaan tanto and i don’t regret those knives at all!
I don't want to start a shitstorm but I have to disagree on this one. I have 3 large Sebenzas and all are sharpened to 20° per side. All slice excellent with the whole cutting edge. Maybe it's a different case with the smalls?
A larger blade gives way more room for the blade geometry to thin out. You have more surface area. Of course it’s going to move through material better. That’s just basic mathematics .
The hollow grind on the larger blade will slice much better than the small blade.
@@ericasedc Idk because smalls are scaled down. They have thinner blade stock than the large ones so in theory they should perform pretty equally.
@@dthcrw_knives ok haha not sure what to tell ya at this point. Many people say slicing is tough with the small. I agree- it isn’t the best slicer. Glad that your way larger blade that is apparently the exact same, performs way better! Cheers!
@@ericasedc of course they are not the best slicers in the world, large ones or small ones and I've never said that. Bugout with tall and thin flat grind does it better from my experience too but is just less robust.
It's funny you mention that. I reprofiled my Inkosi to 15dps just because I do that to most all my knives and love it. Didn't realize other people have problems with them because of that. Lol.
Definitely agree! CRK I've had many and until you sharpen and remove the shit edge they come with they are just pocket jewelry..
I did just that with my first small sebenza 31. I was shocked how (dull) it was. Couldn’t cut anything without wedging it open. I’m a novice sharpener so it took me no joke 4 hours on a whetstone to bring it down to push cut paper…. Definately wasn’t happy as it was my first $400+ knife, but now it’s a satisfactory cutter
I noticed the tip of my 31 is really hard to sharpen. I will keep this in mind the next time i sharpen it.
This possibly explains why it feels like my tantos cut better than my small 31
Not a fan of axis lock blade play, think the better option for hard use is the zt 0640 but theyre quite thiccc. they're abit soft for 20cv but that kinda puts them on par with a good s35 heat treat...
I didn’t realize the ZT 0640 could be front flipped until after I’d had mine a while. It’s not comfortable but it’s doable and you get better at it after while. Cool knife after getting rid of the scales it came with.
Try a Buck 110 in S30V or better steel. Great heat treats, simple design, tough, work horse proven pocket knives. Also, budget friendly. Crazy sharp, great edge geometry.
Buck’s heat treat is so good that they’ve turned 420 HC into a decent steel.
@@markp4401 Yes, the Paul Bos heat treat has been one of the best in the industry for years. Because they are old school back lock knives and a bit heavier most people pass them by. I personally think they are superior to most modern knives. Tried and true. Erica should test one. Even a standard 420 HC 110 hunter model.
@@zarkovecerkovic4825 The Buck 110 is unfairly maligned.
I just sharpend all my sebenza to 17* V edge right out of the box. It hurts me a little bit that i have to get my brand new knives dirty without ever cutting once. But after sharpening, they outperform all my other knives.
Good topic and interesting "point" haha.
But I do not experience the same problem. I cut mainly wood and food and have no complains what so ever. I even sharpend my edge to 42 degrees. That gives me a usable edge for a real long time. After a few good uses it doesn't shave hair anymore but keeps its usable sharpness a long time! And, never had any chips or nicks. Thanks for sharing!
BTW, may I ask what you cut mainly in a daily bases?
Thank you for speaking The Truth about blade geometry. Geometry matters, which is not a personal opinion but the truth. Real Truth does not belong to anyone person thus there is no such thing as My Truth or Your Truth...it is just the truth.
I prefer to lose the factory convex edge and sharpen to standard V bevels on my CRKs. My large 21 is at 18 dps with a 20 degree micro and cuts much better. Its also easier to touchup than having to roll the knife when using the sharpmaker with the factory convex edge.
Mine has the Insingo blade. I laid the edge back a long time ago. It cuts like a laser but the soft steel really bums me out. I though about regrinding it, but I think I will simply make a blade for it in either S90V or CPM M4. Either will far surpass the edge retention of the S35v or 45v. I did already make an D-2 at 62-63 RHc for it and it already o9utcuts the factory blades by a good margin.
For the very high price for a factory knife, they could do a lot better in steel and heat treat spec's. I almost feel a bit ripped off with the performance. I have a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that Reeves help Crucible develop the steel for knives and then fails to utilize the very properties the steel was designed for. I have a hard time understanding the draw to the knives with the ingrained shortcomings of the steel and heat treat combination.
All I can figure is the Bragg factor as there are much better choices out there.
KnifeMaker/Retired
Although you state the geometry is much better on the Benchmade, my experience is that you need to sharpen the Benchmade before it will hold an decent edge. Seems the majority of the owners just don't sharpen their knives very much so they probably never realize they could get it sharper. But most of them don't know how to sharpen well enough, so this dilemma exists.
What most people don’t know or realize is 90% of all mass produced knives are sharpened on a belt grinder and they end up with too much heat which is hell on the temper of the edge causing the initial edge to be weak and dull quickly most people who know call it a burned edge. Everyone should resharpen their mass produced knives before they even start to carry them.
You're absolutely right on bringing the edge down to about 15-16 degrees to get the best cutting geometry. I have several Sebenza Large 21's that are at that edge now-with polished edges for extra eye appeal too. Not a big fanboy of Benchmade...I believe their Axis lock is weak (can slip when locked open) and their politics leave much to be desired. Contributions by Benchmade to liberal politicians is not in our best interests for the 2A. I avoid Benchmade like the plague.
Doesn't matter how nice the steel is, edge geometry is edge geometry and you can't get around that. If it's wrong, it's wrong.
This is why I love my PM2 in Elmax with a Krein regrind to 0.005 bte. Only thing I found that cut better was a cheap Joker slip joint with 2mm thick carbon steel blade and a convex zero grind with a tiny microbevel and its only by a tiny bit. It falls through cardboard, zip ties, foams and rubber. I think everyone should at least experience what a thinly ground knife like that cuts like to see what huge difference geometry plays.
I have a pair of manix 2 Tom did for me. One in cruwear and one in M4 at .008” bte and they are the thinnest and sliciest blades i own. I have some other regrinds including a PM2 in 20cv at .010” bte by MS Customs and it’s definitely hella slicey but even that extra .002 thinner makes a noticeable difference so I can only imagine .005” bte which is what I want to get next. That’s probably as thin as i would go and not gonna be for everyone durability wise but for those looking for sheer cutting performance and ease of sharpening thin geometry is the ticket! Also have some older Krein reground enduras in ZDP and vg10. Bc i just love thin and slicey! Geometry and edge angle most definitely matter more than steel type and even heat treat when it comes to cutting performance. Hell these blades will still cut when dull strictly based on the geometry!
@@jkstdstang those sound pretty sweet. Cruwear and M4 are great choices for thin grinds because of toughness and edge stability. It doesn't sound like much but that little extra thickness does make a difference in cutting ability. I wouldn't go under 0.005 on EDC or utility knives since you really have to be careful with them, especially the tip (my PM2 tip is like a needle at 0.005).
I have a Robert Herder paring knife and it's the thinnest knife I own. It's 0.048 stock and it's a zero grind with just a microbevel so it's 0.002 tops. Even when dull it cuts fruits better than a regular sharp paring knife. It's the sliciest knife I've tried and so easy to sharpen and touch up.
I wish Tom did more regrinds but he's been busy making knives so it's impossible to get one of his regrinds now.
Not every knife needs to be that thin but it's nice to have a few when you need to cut up a bunch of stuff. My Assassin's knives Argo in M398 at 64hrc and 0.007 (the tip is a bit thicker at 0.010 for durability) gets a lot of use when I have boxes to cut up.
Spartan harsey folders are NOT good slicers. They cut well and are very sharp from factory but they are too thick to be good at slicing. The best two slicers i have found are very thin blades - the boos blades smoke and trm atom. Most people don't recognize sliciness but try cutting an apple with a thick vs thin blade and you'll see a big difference
I understand the grind isn’t exceptional though. I’ve heard 20 thousands bte.
I don't cut my apples. I just eat 'em😏
Funny you mention the Spartan Harsey, I have a 3.25 that I've used and sharpened and love but it is thick AF behind the edge, would be better w/ a regrind
Unless the blade faces(primary grinds) are parallel(not V shaped), laying down the sharpening angle will result in a blade thicker behind the edge. Even if the grinds are parallel, the thickness behind the edge will be equal, not thinner. I don’t disagree that laying down the angle makes for a better slicer though. The secondary bevel becomes a more effective wedge with a better mechanical advantage.
I had the same issue with my umnumzaan. The belly towards the tip didn’t wanna hold the edge for a small amount of time. It would always dull so quickly
The reason behind the steel and blade style.. it’s not the best steel. They know that. That’s the intent for ease of sharpening for the regular user. The edge and blade shape are made that way so you can go years of regular sharpening before getting near too thin on the steel. Of course an pm2 or bugout will slice better buy will only last 1/4 of the life of a Sebenza blade. You also need to understand convex edge vs non. It’s not for everyone that’s for sure. A Sebenza is meant to last for life. That gets better with Time in every way. You can buy 10 bugouts or 1 Sebenza. It’s all about how you look at it. I have both. I have many knives. Somethings I like the para 3 for some the Sebenza some the bugout mini etc. if you told me I could only keep one for the rest of my life you bet your ass it’ll be the Sebenza. To each their own. Chris reeves never claimed to have the best steel the best knife for every task etc. it’s meant to last, to be easiest maintained, and to be easily sharpened that’s about it.
If you are such a huge fan, you need to know this: It’s Chris REEVE.
@@MrEric0822 it was meant to be Chris Reeves as In Chris Reeve Knives the company, I just shortened it. Hopefully I didn’t offend. Also there are way more spelling and grammar errors in my comment than that but nobody is here to spell check other peoples comments are they cause nobody has time to waste doing that.
Well said. CRK's are work knives. They can be slicers, but are meant to last for generations. They can do almost anything any other knife can do.
@@YouEverSeeAFrogKid You didn’t offend. Obviously, I did. Sorry about that.
At 15' per side,how long does you edge last before it rolls or you have to touch it up?
Yeah, exactly. That’s a very narrow angle. It may slice well, but that’s not the M.O. with a hard-use knife like CRK makes.
@@RB-xv4si agree. A 15' angle is not verry practical. Stick with a 20'
Yeah. I like the look of the drop point. But I love my lrg insingo
You have validated my suspension, thank you very much
The convex edge doesn’t cut and I always sharpen mine to a V edge
Never had a Sebenza But my Inkosi insingo is a Cutting machine! Thanks for the heads up! Got to disagree with ya About the Harsey it slices boxes up with ease and all day long it looks like it shouldn't be it does at least mine does I just paused your vid and Put my Harsey up against Both my Bugouts And cut up 10 boxes The Harsey Put my Bugouts to Shame All will Shave hair But l think the difference is I've got XXL Hands and for me the Harsey fits perfectly and the grip l get is much better! Now when it comes to notebook paper the Bugouts win all day! Geometry is a big factor, but it isn't the only factor.
Thanks for your awsome long term review 🔥
Do you know if this is also the case on the insingo blades?
Awesome video & great info , happy sunday
great video..nice piece of info
I'm going to do it tonight! Thank you
Do you know if the insingo blade is any better the drop point? Also curious to get your thoughts on the tanto. Thanks.
The insingo is thinner at the tip. I own both.
@@arjungandhi1242
Interesting. Makes me wonder if Insingo was a response to criticisms like what Erica describes in the video.
Sacrilege!😄
Blasphemy against the pantheon God of cutting tools..Chris Reeve, the god who blessed us his worshippers with the S35vn and the frame integral locks. 😂😂😂😂😂😂. Erica should repent and ask for forgiveness 😂😂😂😂😂😂. And indeed everyone who dares to not worship CRKs 😂😂
Insingo blade 4tw
What about the insingo blade shapes ?
Alright let me send this video to crk now. None of my crk cuts well god damn it.
Hope you one day try and test a CRK Tanto Umnuumzaan
the insingo is way easier to keep sharp
Rather buy a Spyderco
That’s a very narrow angle. It may slice well, but that’s not the M.O. with a hard-use knife like CRK makes. As with all knife steel and blade geometries, everything is a trade off. Whenever the knife excels in one thing, it’s guaranteed that it suffers in another category. You said it yourself..it’s a hard-use knife. Why would a hard use knife come out of the box with a dainty 15 degree angle that will chip, roll, and dull fast? It’s an overbuilt high-end folder, not a surgical tool. If you want an absolute razor, just get a different knife and save yourself all the bitching and time spent sharpening.
Makes sense!!!
For $400 you shouldn’t have to fix anything.
@@ylimehajile Your assessment is fair indeed. To each his own.
This knif is 200$ Overpriced. Overdone
@@tacticalcenter8658 it is ignorant
Very debatable. Remember Sebenzas are made in the US which puts CRK at a huge monetary disadvantage.
Don't buy a Chris Reeve knife. Got it, thanks. 👍
I'd say try once, buy twice😏