All Fighting Games Have Cheap BS and That's Okay
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- Опубліковано 4 січ 2020
- streamed Dec. 27, 2019
I feel like we have to touch on this topic a lot
Tournament footage courtesy of EVO:
Original Video: • SonicFox vs Tekken Mas...
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#FGC - Ігри
"You Capcom players dont know whats it like to have broken characters"
*I M M O T I V A T E D*
He was a glass cannon, Vergil was balanced in the sense that any character could touch him and kill him
Never mind El Diablo, how about those lightning loops? XD
@@bloomallcaps Nah he had mad range on his normals too over others
What's wild, is that at best he's top 3, but probably slightly worse than that.
Do you agree with Bloom's argument Boss? That a very strong character is actually balanced because of low health.
I can't think of any fighting game character that had an amazing kit but never saw any play because of their low health. XD
At my local, a lot of the people that played Dragonball did not play Marvel 3, and my time with that game clearly gave me a different perspective from a lot of the other players in my area.
In season 1, Android 16 could kill a character in 2 hits, and the first hit left you in a pretty scary mixup. No argument that that was one of the strongest things in the game at the time. But coming from Marvel 3, I was elated, because it meant I had a chance to get out after the first hit even though the chance was pretty much left up to a guess. The damage in Marvel 3 was so high, that many characters could kill without X factor off of a jab (and pretty much every character could kill off of a jab if they wanted to burn lvl 1 X factor), and then your incoming character was in a terrible mixup scenario that felt worse than anything that 16 could put you in. The fact that DBFZ resets to neutral when a character died only furthered my relief when I switched to that game.
There's still a lot of stuff in Marvel 3 that gives me PTSD, but at the same time, it was a fun game, even with all its bullshit. And Dragonball is a fun game to me even with its bullshit, but it feels a lot less bullshitty to me than Marvel 3, and so far, I do think I appreciate that tremendously.
Walking cat is broken
There are a few rough edges balance wise, such as Walking Cat's st.H being an extremely oppressive button at close range due to rekka mixups and its near non existant recovery when thrown in neutral, add to that really good and consistent confirm possibilities, even midscreen while half of the cast has to stick with limted routes such as cr.L, st.H xx special xx special. This does change at the corner though and the game feels rewarding there.
I feel like there is a difference between "Cheap BS" and degeneracy like Alien, release Bardock/Android 16, Ayane in DoA 4, DLC dude from SFIV whose name I can never seem to remember that needs to be paid attention to. There will always be cheap/annoying crap in fighters, but when you get stuff like Bardock/ GT "Pay us $4.99 to increase your Winrate" Goku it gets out of hand.
Yun on the SFIV character you're thinking of BTW
I mean, whether the character is DLC or not doesn't really matter to me considering strength or degeneracy. DBFZ has largely released weaker DLC than stronger. Look at the other characters released in GT Goku's season pass for comparison.
@@SupermanSajam I think people get more upset at the DLC ones because they very much have a "Pay-to-Win" feeling to them that the base roster/free characters don't.
A stupid OP character in the base roster is just as bad as a DLC one, but the DLC one tends to feel worse because it has that extra $$$ attached to it.
@@ParagonFury Sure, maybe the feeling exists, but it's not the reality of whether a character is more or less degenerate. Either way, the point of the video is that these things will exist regardless of DLC/patches/etc. They just always happen, because whatever is powerful will always carry that feeling.
@@SupermanSajam I think that speaks to why KI did ALL OF THAT better. By having every character have their own gameplay hook and be good at ONLY said hook, the game naturally balances itself out because other character's hooks will probably counter or hurt it. The only exception being someone like Khan Ra because a good trap grappler had never been attempted or done that way. And given his season 3 nerfs, now we know why. But even still, very rarely has a fighter had such tournament diversity such as that one.
I remembered pre-patched Android 16 that shit had me scared because one screw up and it was over lol.
Facts, I’m surprised gt goku wasn’t brought up lol
Pre patch 16 was way worse than GT ever could be.
Arby W. Uh being able to combos after a level 3 solo is pretty bad, not to mention that his level 1 and 3 also get a damage boost if a character dies on ur team. His assist is also one of the best in the game. I just agreed with 16 being broken but so is gt goku that’s why everyone is using him lol
16 and cell were so op when the game came out that even though i bought it on release i didnt actually pick the game up until a year later
Lol how is no one talking about pre patch gotenks? Lmao that guy was mr. “single player mode” 🤣
Fighting games with cheap BS is one thing, but when DLC characters are as objectively degenerate as Alien was it makes the game feel a LOT like pay to win and that's NOT ok.
Shoutout to Leroy in T7
Made worse by the fact that you can't even lab them.
@@gabrielemercadante5989 because you don't buy dlc which is kinda on you
@@FireTrainer92 Dude those DLC prices get nutty. In DBFZ that's $5 a character for all of them it's like $35 which is half of the original price. Making it a total of $95 just for like 6 more characters. At $35 you could buy another fighting game. That's a fucked up price range. You can't blame someone for not want to extend their budget for an already pricy game :/
@@FireTrainer92 like Tyler Cafe said, That's most of the time €5/6, for a character that i simply want to understand, that i'm not even gonna use (Most likely), that i need to understand the moves and matchups mid-match instead of preparing myself like i could with any other character? It's simply in lab mode, i'm not asking to make them straight up free, but let me see it, if i wanted to buy the character, i can't even try him to see how he/she feels to play
I remember Wii U Pokken Tournament and Shadow Mewtwo's ridiculously easy blockstring infinite. That got patched right quick. It's every game, bro.
RogueMephilesClone I think you’re the only one... lmao pokken wut?
Yeah Pokken Tournament, its a real game, its also on the switch as well.
I think the key is to have particular options in the game that make you feel ok with getting hit with something because you know there was an option you could have done to stop it. Not all fighting games are like this.
In VF there's option selects that exist that you can do and believe it or not it tells you in the tutorial. Of course there's options to beat those option selects. Only game I can think of that has some form of this was the 3S option selects and they felt fair because everyone had access to it. Virtua Fighter again is the only few franchises that give you things to work with and it let's you knock on that door that's the player's and not the character's. There should always be room for player error to exist in this fashion.
@@MoldMonkey93 I believe UNIST has option selects too
Agreed, having more options instead of just 50/50 and increasing neutral instances feels a lot better. I haven't played enough of samurai showdown but that game's neutral feels amazing. As a beginner, it feels slow but at the same time, intense and feels like you have many options instead of just guessing all the time. Tekken is definitely a game full of options instead of just pressure 50/50 situations, especially on infinite stages.
Talking about how BS fighting game characters are is probably one of my favorite FG topics, even if it’s my own character lol
And the best part is, you can bring that up in ANY game and likely multiple characters will get brought up, even ones that aren’t even necessarily “top tier”
This is a great topic to discuss.
My best friend will only play a fighting game if it has a cheap bullshit character he can play, the kind that you need to have a firm or advanced grasp on the game to beat consistently. Once you get to that point he stops playing.
Also can I get some sauce on that shirt?
I like the art in your pfp :)
Funny... I had a similar neighbor in my 20s...
WE GOT GUD
HE NEVER DID
Fun times!
Your friend is a huuuuge bitch lmao
@@pkyy9269 I mean you try being a MD with a wife and still be able to lab monster in fighting games, I don't blame him. I do something similar but unga and forced 50/50s stay a little more evergreen but not by much.
@@tastyscavenger Intentionally running away to a new game the moment someone learns how to fight you is the most bitchmade shit I've heard of in an FG. Cool degree, still a bitch.
My favorite will always be Karai's 0-death that's literally just jab. And is also an infinite blockstring lmao.
This reminds me of Fox Shine in Melee but because it's such an integral part of the meta, nobody really ever complains about it.
Yea melee is one of the few fighting games where the gimmicks aren’t too wild. Most depend on the person and how good they are. And the other gimmicks we can’t really control in melee are just SHEESH wobb- you know what you know what I was going to say😭😭
@@BlackWeeeb It’s funny. Smash 64 is absolutely fucked. Every character has ridiculous TOD combos from anywhere, and you can break shields so easily in that game BECAUSE the hitstun and Blockstun is insane in that game. And it’s the reason why there has always been a Smash 64 combo contest held every year at Super Smash Con. Not for any other smash game. The broken shit is what makes 64 64, and if you could just patch it out of existence, the game wouldn’t be the same.
The DLC model has made character balance an interesting topic, since DLC is largely profit-oriented. There are two main schools of thought:
1) DLC characters should be strong, that way people need to buy them. Kokonoe was insanely good in BB Chronophantasma. Even people who didn't want to main her needed to buy her so they could lab out their solutions to her BS.
2) DLC characters should be weak and made stronger. This is basically SF5's approach. You get the initial wave of people buying a character based on aesthetics, then another wave later of people buying based on functionality.
Ya'll remember Brawl Meta Knight? General Zodd? Blazblue Izanami?
Izanami is the best but isn't as broken as the other characters you listed. There is a far better example on blazblue that everyone knows about.
This man Sajam knows all the fighting games. All the versions too =p
Release Leroy, because there's no way he isn't getting the hammer
fugl kylling they already announced a patch lmao
All you need to know about UMVC3 is that there was at least one team composition capable of getting a guaranteed kill on all three characters on the enemy team off of one clean hit if the player executed correctly, and these teams were not even close to being the most busted team comps in the meta.
Because there were other teams that either never had to get a clean hit or were so much better at getting hits that it was easier for those teams to do it three times than for the kill-whole-team-off-one-hit team to get one.
New just chatting screen is FIRE
Damn I wanna make another video about this but I feel like there is no crowd for it
Reminds me of Riptor's flame carpet tail stab setup since you can't really do too much about that either
With the ability to patch games and for devs to collect active feedback came a demand for balance alongside a refusal of homogeneity. People want the devs to make large rosters of unique playstyles that are equally viable and it's just not possible during the dev cycle of most games (although many people will argue KoF13/14 have excellent balance). When discussing the pre-patch era, it's easy to dismiss games for their balance flaws because players took the game beyond the intention of the developers and impose their own rules/constraints. While watching this video, I noticed myself giving a lot of passes to older titles because I didn't find out about the competitive environment until they'd already eliminated the non-viable portion of the roster (ie 3S, MvC2, Melee).
That riptor loop reminded me to kof 99 kensou and kof 2000 vanesa lol. Kof has a lot of bullshit broken loops and broken characters as well like 98 o. chris
I feel like character strength and people's preferences factor into it. If you play strong characters with strong tools all or most of the time, you'll not notice how bs stuff is compared to other characters. But when you spend a while in low tier hell, you'll suddenly start seeing the bs more. Whether you're okay with it is up to you
There has to be a line drawn between, the game itself having cheap BS or it being tied to a few characters. If you have a game where *everything* is cheap then sure, anyone can complain all day but they also have the ability to do some BS with their character.
When it's just a handfull of characters, at most it's fun for the person with the cheap character...at worst, it turns people off playing if you see the same chars online, in tourneys etc.
Also, at what point do you say its okay/not okay?
If you see something close to an infinite, are you more likely to say "keep it in cos stuff be like that" or "it should be nerfed"?
When is Sajam gonna play more Punch Planet?
Leroy is no where near as cheap as any of the other mentioned tekken characters. He's definitely very strong but he won't take major nerfs to bring him in line like it took those other characters. Plus he's fresh and folks don't want to lab him.
Leroy is Tekken 7's T6 Bob. The closest thing to perfection, but you still have to put in some modicum of effort in unlike T5 Steve, S2 Katarina, or King in the game where he got something like +50 frames on block for a simple attack.
@@Stephakaii
That's tekken 1 king I think. Like I said, he ain't as extreme as those other characters. A good damage nerf will bring him in line with the rest of the cast.
@@ArmoredLeo72688 in T2, king had a throw that instant comboed and killed from counter hit lol
@@aspreedacore
I know but that shit wasn't easy to do. It was the octopus hold or something like that.
@@ArmoredLeo72688 you can't be serious man ua-cam.com/video/zwZnGdMQvss/v-deo.html
Super Turbo had the famous Akuma versus Zangief matchup, 9:1 in Akuma's favor. XD
Core-A-gaming has a video about balance where he basically mentions how difficult balance is when you're aiming for character and attack diversity which makes sense.
Obviously devs should balance as much as possible, but bs characters are always going to exist
Understandable
JUST DON’T LET IT BE HALF THE ROSTER PLEASE
@@Ramsey276one then that's how we get marvel 2
@@Ramsey276one Sounds like you should just go play hifights footsies.
Ultra instinct Roshi already have it;)
Pre-patch MKX Alien would be the first thing I see opening this video 😂 but honestly pre-patch Tanya was way more broke imo
Pre-patched Tanya was the real deal. There is a reason why CEO 2015 MKX top 8 helped earn her moniker 'Top Tanyer'. Cuz everyone looking to win in that top 8 ran her.
The issue of DLC characters in this generation of fighters makes me really think that the old school/ArcSys way of versioning is just better for our games. It allows the community to REALLY learn the game and more accurately pinpoint what needs to be changed and what isn't as strong as we initially think.
Of course there will be exceptions, but it's really not fun learning a game for months on end and have ONE character come in and completely flip the balance of the game on it's head simply by existing. By contrast, everyone hates spending money and waiting for months for your favorite character/s to arrive, just for them to suck; making you regret buying them or the season pass etc.
Having all the characters available from the get go really allows the degenerate and weaker aspects of a game to be more defined. I also think it makes the player base level up more and not just rely on the next round of patches to do the work for them.
Came to realize over the years that the majority of characters I end up playing have some sort of cheap shit attached to them, especially if they turn things into a 1-player game in my favor.
1:23 Bayonetta
Damn no one mentioning MK9 Kabal
2:03 *Looks at Leroy Smith*
I think there's a big difference between "strong for their game" characters who are overtuned or stronger than the other chars in the game, and chars that are actually, literally, broken or completely balance warping. Think like HnK Toki/Rei, or SBX Mori, chars who are literally so strong to the point of warping the meta and most match ups to "How well does your character fight this one char." Compared to Rei touching you once and converting into an infinite practically guaranteed, getting put in a 50/50 situation where you will still be able to play the game after, sometimes multiple times, really isn't that bad
When people bring up HNK, people should really take into context the design of the game, the formats people see it played often (teams because otherwise nobody would wanna watch/play Toki top 8 GFs) and the interestingly flaw that it is easy to drop combos in the game. In fact one of the last match videos I saw for it was hilarious because this proved the case. A Raoh player had gotten a Rei player through the whole dick punch combo deal but EASILY dropped Raoh's super. Rei player immediately hit super on wakeup that hit, didn't drop his killing combo and won the match. And that is the point of a silly ass game like HNK is despite how warped the character tools/strengths are, the only universal constant is that dropping combos is a real threat. In similar vein like watching Fate Unlimited Codes. Sure its a cute combo rific game to spectate but people don't realize *HOW* difficult those combos are (constant TKs to motions, the tight windows) that drops are a real threat even with strong players and can turn what looked like a controlled game to an ugly scramble for a win.
Curious as to what is UNIST's brand of horse manure.
UNIST doesn't have anything too bad. Could probably find a lot in UNI (the original pre-UNIEL arcade release in Japan), though. Game was pretty busted iirc.
Maybe some of merkava stuff
Peeps hate Phonon and Wagner mostly, Phonon for her ridiculous pressure and range (Though it is UNIST, so high range isn't that rare) and Wagner for dumb plus frames and Unga as fuck playstyle.
Though, as far as UNIST goes, it's a coin flip as far as who you hate the most goes. I play Hyde, who's worst match is Wald, but fuck that, I'm so sick of Eltnum. I could go my whole life without looking at her loops ever again.
@@AntanovOCEFGC Did someome say 22B 66C 22B 66C 22C?
Web traps with byakuya is pretty stupid to imo
The funny part about this discussion is that MOBA's and Overwatch have this same exact issue but at least they use PTR servers to address it. While PTR's aren't a silver bullet it's at least a path to improvement as they identify some balance issues before they hit the main game. This or something like it needs to be considered by fighting game developers going forward if they ever want to tackle this problem in the future.
you say that but brigitte was game breaking in the PTR and they put her in the main game of overwatch without changing a single thing
Overwatch address balancing issues with the PTB feedback. OMEGALUL. I lost count at the amount of broken things that get ignore their. To them nerfing the character into the ground later on by a knee jerk reaction. OW PTB is just their to exist.
Referring to the title of the video, tell that to LTG, The Covenant, or w/e he's called now. Lol
Power Rangers Battle for the Grid is a great fighting, except all of their dlc characters have been busted on release.
Okay but why is an honest character like Abigail in the thumbnail though...
Fuck out of here
"Abigail" and "honest" are not correlating terms.
Shit if abigail is an honest than
Ryu needs to be nerfed with all his "tools" and gimmicks like
The free command grab hadoken air tire roll free instant stun than uhh?
Abigail needs to go to jail.
Blacklisted for suspicious activity.
BBCF Izanami maybe? That character it's just a do everything type of character from what I understand
She's fine in the context of Blazblue. She's running around with the likes of Carl, Arakune, and Nine who all shared the spotlight of "this character is real fucked up".
Definitely this. Smash Ultimate is a monstrosity in terms of how degenerate it could be, but people act like its the only game with BS. I love the crap out of it and people look at me like I have five heads, I find it super hype and cool when it needs to be and funny when it wants to be. Snakes frame 1 combo breaker, Joker Arsene, Palu Nair, Pikachu's landing animation, and GnW's entire character, all mega stupid. But I take all that for what I consider to be the most unique and fun fg experience I've ever had.
Every fighting game is going to have stuff like that
@@daisukedoi9284 That's what I've been tryna tell people lmao. Tho I think Smash has a few things that are uniquely annoying tho, really strong counter moves, and a fair bit more RNG than say a character like Faust or Lum. But still I think the game's dope regardless.
Palu Nair is almost fair compared to the rest of that shit you just mentioned. Pikachu's pancaking is wack as hell. Also, the real wackness from Palu is the rest of her kit, like bair, upsmash, the windboxes, and uptilt hitting low in front of her
@@ModelFx yeah I know, but I wanted to mention the thing that draws the most ire from people in general. Palu is rediculous in general lmao
Mild Psychopathy yeah exactly, Ultimate feels super clunky and sluggish. Melee, without even using any movement tech, feels buttery smooth.
"Current leroy is definitely worse than launch Akuma" I wouldn't say definitely. The thing's that made launch akuma broken are pretty different than what makes leroy broken. Akumas is just locked behind some execution. Leroy is just easy mode, TTT2 combot
I don't think current Leroy is worse than launch Akuma.
@@SupermanSajam you said in the video at around 7:35 "I think current Leroy is worse than Launch Akuma" I took it as, worse = more broken. My bad lol
@@HasteXXI Worse, as in weaker. The Tekken poll was me pointing out that most modern games have more balanced "broken" characters than post titles. Including launch Akuma
@@SupermanSajam yeah I definitely agree. Leroy being "broken" isn't really as game breaking as steve in 5.0 or T4 jin. He just has most of the best tools in the game.
Launch Akuma is just a nerfed version of what akuma could do before we got a console release.
Remember kids: Jank Can Be Beautiful
Third strike has bullshit with yun and chun, but i have fun defending against it because you can choose the level of risk ur willing to take when getting pressured and ull get rewarded accordingly. I don't feel its the same with sfv n stuff. idk, maybe i gotta play it more.. not really super experienced in it yet
When I see some characters cheap BS? it's what makes me want to play them. ( outside of the " this chazracter obviously breaks the game kind" )
The first time I saw a 3rd Strike Makoto 100% stun combo, yep, I want to do that, sign me up.
@ Yeah that's kind of a modern issue with this stuff for sure.
If it was ok, it wouldn't be called cheap BS
_Looks at BBTAG Adachi and Yumi_
*Cries in Yukiko*
@@stuartd155 *Cry-laughs in "This is the strongest Yukiko has ever been"*
*laughs in Akihiko, snorting protein*
Big agree with this. Fucked up bullshit isn’t something that you can escape. But more than that fucked up bullshit is fun af. I’ll never get sick of the fighting games I play because they’re full of fucked up bullshit I can learn about and play around, and that keeps it interesting in my opinion
Is that aris commentating mk?
Nero from MBAACC
Gotta love yohosie
It’s funny the type of BS I’m willing to put with. In SF, the tolerance I think is a lot lower, whereas in Marvel and DBFZ I’m always down for the grimiest strats I’ve ever seen.
What about SamSho?
I don't know the details but there was a wave of Genjuros at tournaments all the way up to EVO 2018 (Infiltration won with him as well). The character wasn't DLC but he was tactically nerfed and is apparently still pretty usable.
I don't know anything about the older SamSho games.
Well at least we don't have to deal with aimbot hacks like in FPS games.
It's not poison dammit its acid
Guilty Gear X Gold Sol.
I just don’t see how you can be proud/happy for using some cheap/broken shit lol. Fighting games to me are about besting your opponent mentally and outplaying. Capitalizing on a conversion, confirms etc. To me, that makes a good match to play and watch.
Fight starts at character select. If a character is 100% the best, you are chosing to handicap yourself by chosing to not use it
If both players are using bullshit characters, I dont see how that isn't competitive. You're trying to beat each other while having the same tools and resources.
fighting games are a good analogy to war. Everything's fucked up and full of guessing what the other person's going to do. Doesn't matter how big his gun is if he actually knows how to use it and his other tools.
I think the thing people forget is that it's fun to do bullshit full-screen buttons that just kill people, but it's even more fun once you know how to beat them. I started playing dark souls after watching you play and the amount of places you walk around a corner and get thrown in a pit and die or get IK'd by bs armor commands and other things is what makes it so fun and enjoyable when you're able to beat. Plus let's say everything is balanced with a low skill-floor, you have 1 character with 2 strings a high and a low but they both come out i60 and have drastically different animations. No one would play that game, but MVC2 and TS and Melee and all these other games have survived for 20+ years because they're broken messes where there's always new interactions between moves and characters being discovered. No one really cares about balance, people want depth and layers to things: MVC2 Storm is like 3 moves and sentinel punch does like 40% and loops with the drone super and all the broken shit in that game but it's still one of the greatest fighting games of all time because of the options that characters have.
On a side note I'm not sure if you've talked about this before but a good thing could be about fighting game design philosophy where when you look at older games like MVC2 and JJBA the characters for the most part seem to be developed in a vacuum unrelated to the other characters but in newer games it seems to be more about like "this move is gonna be -15 and it'll have x pushback/cancels and yada yada" where everything's a lot more homogenized around certain rules like "let's make a cool character that fits these traits" rather than mvc2 where we have a sombrero-wearing cactus and half the cast has infinites or jojo's where you can stop time and do busted tandems that basically one-touch for 1 bar of meter among other things
Let's be honest, we dont like an honest fighting game. We just want BS that we are okay with.
False.
Beware Brett, he's going to be all over your ass telling you about Koihime
Name 3 characters in either SFV or Dragonball (current patches) that are worse than Sougenmu Zero, Lv3 X factor Vergil with meter (Devil Trigger and Spiral Swords), Astral Vison Morrigan, or Lv 3 X factor Dark Phoenix fr UMVC3.
You don't want Fighting Games without cheap BS. Unless you like staring at each other
Signed: a For Honor player
Call me crazy, but isn't For Honor full of cheap BS? I haven't played in a while, but I heard the new characters just get grosser as the season's went. Maybe cause I mained Warden, who's like, the most basic fucker ever. But I thought that game was infuriating.
Antanov-SSS there’s is always, always, dumb ass characters in for honor. I tried but couldn’t take it seriously anymore after I realized that almost every character is unga and can be played with little to no thought.
@@AntanovOCEFGC Year 3 chars are full of BS, but before the devs started adding BS, the game was almost unplayable at the highest levels because everybody was so scared of attacking
I prefered that why, it was cool as hell, basically an huge mind game
Now is just boring, spam safe attack and 50/50, it feel like tekken
@@davis1228 the problem is that the mind games were incredibly shallow, since blocking is the best defensive mechanic in the game and parrying drains so much of the opponent's stamina
Although I do get what you mean, I think I kinda have to disagree.
I think some level of BS is fine, but some go a bit too far. I don't go around choosing a game because of the amount of BS I can do or handle, although I have been pushed away because some were just too much for me, for the games in which I still play, I just deal with it because I like the characters, the feel of the game, the mechanics, the combos, etc or just because I can't find any better. The BS just kinda gets in the way of enjoying it, because say you went a picked a character you thought it was cool or cute or something, and then you just have to deal with those who can do invisible 50/50's into setplays, ToDs, half your HP into more pressure, etc etc, or switch into characters that can deal with or use that BS as well, because, even if all characters have BS, some character's are just "I dodge around your attack once" while others are "you just died I guess".
I think we are just used to dealing with it, but I think of having to deal with BS the same way as I think having to just deal with bad netplay, it's just there and you have to live with it, it's a decision of the developers to include such things so it's out of your control, even though it could be fixed, your other options are using it as well (picking characters whose bs is just too good / can abuse the system more) or just not playing the game, even if you do like the rest of it, which is not really a good thing nor is it really okay.
So, just because it's been there forever doesn't mean is ok for it to be there, some people like me want to enjoy the game and try my best regardless of who I pick, feeling like I'm at a heavy disadvantage just because I'm using the character I love / not using the characters I don't like is not cool.
Regardless of how strong or weak a character is, stuff that they have access too can be considered "bullshit". Even a well balanced game will have weak characters with potentially strong and degenerate options. Without allowing powerful options, you start to limit the types of things characters can have access too
@@SupermanSajam That's not what I meant, I meant that even if a weaker character has access to degenerate options, those options don't quite lead to the same type of results as a strong character's degenerate options.
It wouldn't have to limit the type of things characters can do, but rather make it a more fair ground for every character rather than some characters degenerate options being match deciding while others are barely situational. Is not about not having bs or strong options, but rather how strong those are across the board, in which, some are too good, while others' are just whatever.
Is not fun for everyone to deal with, and is not exactly necessary for the game either.
@@SuwakoMoriya Sure, but the point in the video is that regardless of what the game is, people will always find strong/powerful options they deem bullshitt/degenerate. It's the nature of a competitive game, and regardless of whether characters are weak/strong or their results, those options will persist. Part of playing a game like a fighting game is accepting that these options will be around, even in relatively balanced games.
Even the most balanced fighting games are full of powerful options you can call BS, it doesn't matter how you design them.
@@SupermanSajam For what I understood, there was 2 points being made in the video, 1st was that degenerate options / bs exist in every game, and 2nd was that we should just accept them and be ok with them.
I think the first point is understandable, is very hard or nearly impossible to make it really balanced specially in a fighting game, so strong options are bound to exist, but I think with the second point, they shouldn't be accepted so easily, at least with how much they reward X or Y character while B and C are left on the ground. It's why we see people mention them in the first place, it's because it doesn't feel fair.
There's a reason we see some characters dominate the scene of a FG, and some barely appear. I think it limits the possibility and variety of a game to have some characters being too strong due to their degenerate options or ability to abuse the systems being too dominant over a game, hence why we always see the same characters reach the top places with some slight variety, even if the players aren't the same.
So is not so much about not having strong options, I agree with them existing, is just more about limiting how strong some are or how weak some are compared to the other and not just taking it as "that's just how it is".
@@SuwakoMoriya Even in games where powerful options exist across the board, I think you generally don't tend to see the "weaker" characters most of the time for a few reasons.
If the game was patched frequently before getting there, people get used to the patching cycle, and tend to jump to whatever stands out as strongest at a tournament level. If the game is patched more infrequently, then people have settled on who's most powerful, but you occasionally see specialists who have put in a lot of time have success with weaker characters.
In either case, I think you still have to "accept the BS", because what's the alternative? Whether the balance is good, or not, characters of all level will have options that you can deem "BS". I think in well balanced games, that's actually especially true honestly.
The reality also is, that results alone don't tell the full story of character balance and strength. Characters with the most success in tournament tend to be characters who are simple to execute with, and don't have extremely difficult gameplans. That's being general, but in most cases that's who tournament players will tend to gravitate towards.
Smash 4 bayonetta even post patch was not ok
*ahem* Tekken 7 King
Someone really tried to lump Wagner in with that bunch lmao
the fucked up part is they said her before seth, and even seth is nowhere near as fucked up as characters from other games
Alien poison stacked 3x
T6 Bob was bullshit. If he wasn't your main he was your pocket. At least Akuma felt different enough to dissuade everyone from keeping him as a secondary character.
3rd strike and sf4 are the only honest fighters I know cuz LTG won’t stop saying it
This video applies to every GG character they’re all fucked
Haha for honor
Overcoming adversity is what makes fighting games worth playing. If Raging demon was as bullshit and easy to connect with as Ryus CA there would be no joy in it.
"Wagner"
I'm not even a Wagner main and that's just not true. She's strong but look who made it to top 8 at evo
Enkidu, the worst character in the game. He made it last year too, actually just incorrect. Redblade makes Wagner seem insane because he's good at the game and he's very good with her, that's all
Yohoser, huh? Shout-outs to the bay. I stopped playing SFV not because of the brutal mixups but because the game made me want to vomit. It was trash and dumb to smoke.
Soul calibur 6 is the most degenerate fighting game I'm willing to put up with.
I couldn't handle it. Losing to re parry is corny.
Good vid, but Abigail??? You joking? Lol
He’s silly, but not “bullshit”
Some games have significantly more BS than others but of course no game is truly immune
comett itun nobody cares bro
@@MoeMunnie023 how tf did u find me lmao
comett itun the universe favors me.
Rocket Raccoon ?
bob was way more broken then Leroy ever could be. Leroy is just plus, and right now he’s the hate trend.
Found the leroy main
Murfdurp lol don’t main Leroy sorry
@@steeplewiththesnakes Found the guy whose first Tekken was 7
@@MoldMonkey93 not saying that bob wasn't worse but no need to downplay leroy as "just plus"
Murfdurp his frame data speaks for itself. Randos hate because he has no weaknesses. A 10% damage nerf and he’s right at 70 - 75. Learn the match up and stop bitching. There’s a lot more characters then Leroy that are OP.
The entirety of MvC2 is fucked up and that's 100% the reason it's so god damn fun.
Fucking Bayonetta ruined smash 4's meta
“You Capcom players don’t even know what it’s like to have broken characters...” lmao jojo hftf is a capcom game
also an overall shit game nobody has even played
@@ultrainstinctroshi7315 That's why its at Frosty Faustings this year with Guilty Gear right?
@@rundasfromhalo8586 bruh it's a side game. FF got 29 games being played for their "official" titles, and it ain't even apart of those. Not to mention theres only 13 people who signed up for it lmfao
GKGT
Original BB kokonoe. Please never again
Super Broly is pretty bad rn in dbfz
So long story short, nerf Goku Gt
@DeadMemes NeedToStayDead Goku GT is a small character that can avoid most attacks with ease, but also comes equipped with incredible ranged and combo potential.
Goku GT is the only character with the ability to combo 2 level 3's in one combo after they patched every other ability like that out of the game
His damage and scaling are also great and he has frame advantage in nearly every situation.
Not to mention he has an incredible assist and is immune to fuzzy due to his size.
You are at an active disadvantage if you DON'T play Goku GT, theres a reason hes the best character on ever tier list, he has access to almost every tool for practically free and is played on almost every competitive and non competitive team, the character has an overwhelming presence and dominates every matchup.
In no way is he "fine." I'm good if other characters like Kid Buu also get nerfed, but honestly the only problem with balance I think the game really has right now is Goku GT.
D-O-T?
damage over time (like a poison or fire status effect)
Elstree you the real MVP
Yea but some fighting games can fucking suck.
Just take the Dota allstars balancing strategy. Give every character stupid bullshit.
When everyone is busted... no one is...
Mkx had broken characters. But to be honest i prefer broken characters over broken mechanics like in mk11...
What mechanics would u say are broken in mk11? I’m curious
Jkong Hong I love both mkx and mk11 but mk11 is way more balanced, I just wish that the combos in mk11 looked more flashy tbh
@@anthonyaquino123 The defender has way too many options on wakeup, anti-airs don't work like they're supposed to, blocking still feels stiff, and throws are always guesses, just to name a few.
@@anthonyaquino123 there is almost no mechanic in mk11 that has not at least some flaws (sadly...) but jump ins and throws are truly broken. Anti airs are just a gamble, throws can grab you out of low attacks eventhough they are supposed to be high attacks, but then randomly whiff on some slow random strings. Also just the fact that this game has no block buffer makes it basically impossible to consistently punish a -8 attack with an 8f move.
DarKnightSpider every option on wake up can be countered, and it’s not hard to counter them all. The best anti-airs are usually done with a jab not down 2. Throws are a guessing game but it’s not hard to tell where someone will throw you, because it’s almost always going to be to the nearest corner so it’s not a big of a guess than you would think. Mk11 is way more fair than mkx ever was but I still like them both lmao
Smash 4 bayonetta is complete bullshit
Notice he didnt mention Smash
Can you please play games on stream stream and not just discuss
The video uploaded before this is me playing UNIST
"All fighting games"
Not all. There is at least one exception: Skullgirls. Having gone through five years worth of (sensible) patches, it's so well balanced that there is no generally agreed tier list.
JediLink Cause everyone in SG has bullshit and there are so many different possible team comps that someone could make that it’s hard to really agree on what’s the best. However it’s pretty widely considered that Double, Cerebella, and Big Band are the best characters to have on your team.
No it's not. It's corny for noobs.
All games have broken system no matter how many updates happen. Have fun learn your characters go get that W or take the L. But I will say this players who know the broken shit in there games and use that shit to win matches suck ass. That’s me, what do you guys/ladies have to say?
I feel like if you aren't doing "Cheap BS" in Cross Tag Battle, you don't excel in that game at all. Defensive options are all crap and blocking is the wrong decision majority if the time.
I mean
Pushblock
Universal reversals
You can even burst on block if you really need to and it doesn't take that long to come back
@@JaneViolet_ pushblock costs meter and does leave you in a state where throws can't be rejected. That, and pushblock doesn't affect Personas if they have one. Even if one didn't actually predict a burst, most 4P assist calls beat the incoming after taking the burst's hit anyway.
As far as I can tell, defense just doesn't exist in that game.
@@CronoEpsilon Well do you expect there to be some get-out-of-pressure-free technique that has no downsides? Pushblocking only costs 1 bar and is highly effective when used at the right time. It's much more useful than for example faultless defense in Guilty Gear which costs a lot of meter and hardly pushes anywhere. Grabbing a pushblock is only possible from A normals and requires a read. It exists because it's pretty much the only way to definitively counter a pushblock.
As for personas, even if you can't push the persona, pushing the point is still useful. Against Yu and Aigis, they can't mix you up if you push the point away. Against Elizabeth and Adachi, they still can with their persona grabs, but they have fewer combo options afterwards because they're too far away.
As for bursts, you would only do it if the assist is already onscreen.
@@JaneViolet_ I don't really expect any option with zero downsides, but my issue is that there is more risk associated with blocking than anything else in that game. The systems at play are heavily designed against it, so you're naturally less inclined to do so. In a game like that, winning doesn't feel satisfying for me either.
@@CronoEpsilon It sounds a bit to me like you're either new to fighting games, or at least unfamiliar with anime games. It's very common across many fighting games that blocking = pressure = a disadvantaged situation. Pretty much all fighting games have ways to earn an advantage by making good strategic plays, and block pressure is just one example. If you're in pressure, that means your opponent did something to put you in pressure and you didn't stop or avoid it.
If you think that block pressure just shouldn't exist and people shouldn't be able to gain an advantage in that way, well sorry but that's just not how the game works. Most anime games reward playing offensively in some way because it makes the game faster and more exciting. That being said, it's debatable just how good offense and pressure should be and how much is too much. Guilty Gear is one of the most extreme examples where several factors that make being in pressure overwhelmingly bad, whereas Unist has relatively weaker offense and better defense making it not as bad. BBTag is probably somewhere in the middle between those two.
Something that's common across practically every game however is everything seems worse than it really is when there's a large skill gap between you and your opponent. Good opponents will have strong offense, and it takes time and experience to build your defensive skill up to the same level. In the case of BBTag, you can learn stuff like:
-The best and worst times to pushblock
-Points where you need to guess a mixup
-Being able to tech throws or defend mixups on reaction
-Gaps where you can challenge with an attack or a reversal
-How to figure out your opponent's habits and beat them
etc.