wild theory. Judge Doom was a cartoon extra, unnamed, no lines, a face in the crowd. its why nobody knew who he was before he put on the mask. he was just "bystander 3" or "Thug 5". just a nebulas character with what ever skill is required to make the episode work. need a blacksmith he has an anvil, need a lumberjack he's got a saw. just a cartoon method actor who lost his mind.
If only they hadn't deleted the line about Doom being the hunter who killed Bambi's mom. That way we would know for sure he was... An unnamed man... Who never appeared on screen.
@@Channel9001 I do like that idea, but Bambi explicitly takes place in North America because Bambi is a white-tailed deer, while Beauty and the Beast explicitly takes place in France, so I personally can't enter it into head canon.
That would be cool. Who killed Todd's mother in the fox in the hound was it Coper's owner or an unknown? Off screen kablam! It doesn't happen too often in toons.
@@theghosty99 Except that cartoons weren't originally directed at children .. a crooked possum getting the one up on a bumbling beat cop wouldn't be a far fetched plot point.
I think Doom was the main villain for the Pistol Possum, like Professor Moriarty was for Sherlock Holmes. He probably used a different name too, the Baron Von Rotten name, (real or another of his alias') would have been the 1 used.
my personal headcanon actually comes from cool world. Original the movie was supposed to be about a seriel killer who was the offspring of a human and a toon. I could imagine Doom being like this. Thats why he can easily look like a regular human but also has toon "powers".
So with characters like Betty Boop and Jessica Rabbit being extremely lusted over this has some pretty Jim Crow er implications. I'm actually on board for it
@@Nodd18 I mean in Cool World they actually f*ck and it turns a toon into a human. Or rather turns a "Doodle" human. (since they couldn't legally use the term Toon) Cool World deserves a good remake, it was such an acid trip of a movie!
Here's my theory: Going back to the books, the main villain Eddie fights, was a cartoon Genie with powers. My personal view is that Judge doom is this Genie. Which is why he posseses great strength by tossing Eddie and can shapeshift his hand into an anvil or a working buzz saw. My assumption is that he's some 'gold colored' and 'red eyed' Genie, as after Judge Doom melted, the ink around him is completely gold-yellow (with the exception of his red eyes) The Genie in the book was defeated by having his lamp placed under water, while Judge doom was defeated by being dissolving into liquid dip. And on top of that, some say that when Judge Doom's eyes turn into daggers, they are designed off of middle eastern ones. The same place and origins of where a Genie would come from. Allegedly.
There is fanart of the genie's teakettle with the evil eyes peaking out from under the lid; it's a striking image that helps illustrate this theory..I like it better than the "Baron Von Rotten" origin because it goes back to using a concept from the book - kinda like how Doom being a toon is based on the DeGreasey Brothers being toons that used the genie's power to become humans.
I never liked the Baron Von Rotten explanation. Having him be a toon that went crazy after playing villains is much less compelling than a toon who of their own volition decided to put together a scheme that made him rich at others expense
Yeah, this was up there with The Naked Gun when Frank says Nice beaver, and she says Thanks I just had it stuffed. I was a kid looking at my dad howling at a taxidermied beaver and having no idea what the joke was. I asked my dad why it was funny and he gave me the old Some day you'll understand
As an adult the meaning is obvious, but it’s a reference to the line “What were they doing there?” “Well, they weren’t playing patty-cake..” Don’t know where it’s from, but probably a Sam Spade novel or movie.
Perhaps the shape changing yellow hand was actually one of the props? WAIT. Pistol Packing Possum is dressed like a gangster.. as are the Weasels.. which are both, y'know, rodent-type animals... The Weasels were probably PPP's goons in the cartoon! Also, I'm fairly sure the yellow 'paint' is just leftover Dip. Tan or flesh color could easily break down into yellow, as well. Bruh. It's the PPP. That's so cool.
The yellow paint is actually a key plot point. One of the reasons why they accused Roger of the crime was because Roger has yellow gloves and they found yellow paint on the rope tied to the safe that killed Acme. At the end standing over Dooms melted body, Eddie hands the rope with the yellow paint to his colleague and says he's certain the paint from Doom's body is a perfect match. So yeah, Doom was definitely a yellow color.
@noremac7216 & @omnesilere Brethren!! I'm an oft-irked botanist. It is an _absolute pleasure_ to find a set of zoologists such as yourselves in this Comments Section! 🫡
6:18 Judge Doom doesn't actually seem like a super cunning villain. I mean, sure, the whole scheme in Who Framed Roger Rabbit was pretty intricate and well thought out. But its also utterly insane, a long winding plot concocted by a Scooby-Doo villain than the most efficient way to exterminate all 'Toons. In the context of the movie, yeah it kinda needed to happen that way to make a good mystery. Imo, Judge Doom is a 'Toon at heart, more intoxicated with being evil and executing a villainous plan like his characters more than anything.
They do address this in the movie. When Eddie confronts Doom in the finale, he points out how absurd the whole scheme really is, and that this actually only makes sense for an insane toon to do. Honestly, one of the best lampshade moments I've ever seen a script do, since it allows the writers to justify the winding mystery plot perfectly.
Also fits with the reoccurring theme toons can’t fight their nature. Jessica can’t help acting sexy, Roger can’t help being clownish, so doom can’t be as serious as he probably wants to be.
Judge Doom's scheme is based on a real corporate conspiracy that actually happened. The toons in the movie are stand-ins for black performers in early Hollywood, so Toontown represents black and other minority neighborhoods that were bulldozed to build the freeway, often while giving residents little warning or time to even evacuate the area, as I recall.
I always thought Cool World would have been a separate dimensional space, seeing as all of the ambiance is based of graphic novel/comic book art rather than the animated focus of Toontown.
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Then let me blow your mind by telling you that scheme actually happened. In 1949, General motors and several other companies were convicted of conspiracy to create a monopoly on buses, fuel, and supplies, and as part of the scheme, they had bought up and shuttered transit services in 25 cities across the US. The were ultimately acquitted somehow on monopoly charges related to the transit systems specifically, but basically it went down in reality exactly as Doom planned. The video and most people talking about the scheme miss the point. Doom didn't kill the toons because he wanted to get rid of Toontown, that was just a byproduct of wanting to be a monopolist billionaire.
I'm thinking Doom was created by an independent Ralph Bakshi type operating outside whatever their equivalent of the Hayes Code was. ... And I just remembered Cool World existed.
@@TwinePoodleWhat does that meen? also: "Barron"'s just an everyday disguise and the real "doom" is a shape-shifter toon, whose true color is piss yellow with red eyes, "Barron" was just a fake name to rename anonymous when acting as varies different characters.
An intruiging part is, when the toons see his remains, they jovially remark on what he certainly wasn't. Which does imply that he wasn't anyone the WB or Disney toons where familiar with. Here's a fun theory that just popped into the ol' noggin. What if he was an old design of a more popular character? Like Oswald for Mickey, or Tom & Jerry's 1st designs (who didn't even have those names yet). Maybe some cartoon villains 1st draft got a life of it's own, before any short was even finished, and set about concocting a scheme, based on some loose ideas a couple of drunk guys in a termite infested studio while brainstorming the next star the big cats been looking for? The world may never know.
My theory is that... that was the point. it was a toon that no matter how many roles he played (like pistol possum. or his last play... DOom) No one ever knew who he was. to me Doom was pissed at Toontown. His convoluted plan was not the highway. the highway was a mean for an end. The end was striking toon town back in revenge for his failed career
My understanding was that in an early draft of the film's script, Doom was supposed to be the hunter who shot Bambi's mother, "Man". This has always been my personal headcannon on the subject because it is just so completely random.
At one point in my youth I remember thinking Judge Doom was yellow because it was supposed to be a dig at the Simpsons. The Simpsons were controversial when it first debuted on FOX and the idea of a new edgy cartoon being the villain to these classic cartoon characters sort of made sense. As such, technically Judge Doom was Bart Simpson only not in any legal sense. Then it dawned on me that the Simpsons didn't debut on FOX until late 1989 and Who Framed Roger Rabbit came out in 1988. Sure they had started out on the Tracey Ullman Show in 1987 but I can't imagine the makers of the Roger Rabbit would have cared or even knew they existed in order to include them in anyway.
Look at 6:15, look at Doom's eyelids. They are not yellow/gold, they are beige. The only yellow parts we see are his hand, and the bottoms of his feet (the springs). He augmented those himself, with his ink-and-paint supplies, to give himself superpowers. To make weapons that enormous, he would have had to use a large amount of paint, drowning out and dominating the coloring of his remains.
I have to admit; I didn't fully understand the plot of this movie my entire time, I just enjoyed it and I knew there was a cat and mouse detective story with a slapstick sidekick and some shenanigans going on. You just laid out the plot so beautifully and descriptively that its wonderful to hear. Thank you for the content.
I'm not 100% on board with that comic's explanation, but I DO like the idea that Judge Doom was a toon dating back to the early 1920s silent B&W cartoons, like the era of Koko the Clown, Felix the Cat and Walt Disney's Alice comedies. In those old cartoons the characters shape-shift all the time, so that's how the Judge turns his arm into an anvil, a saw, etc. But from there, I personally like the idea that once cartoons advanced past rubber hose silents, and sound and color became all the rage, Doom (like Betty Boop) became obsolete and lost his career. Then eventually grew so bitter he went mad and decided to destroy all cartoon characters as revenge. The simplicity is what makes this theory my favorite.
My controversial take is much like your own, but I'd also like to throw in my own concept. What if the toon in question was a rubberhose character? I mean, given a certain wonderful cat's proclivity for a yellow bag that can turn into anything, the typical rubberhose era toon's ability to stretch their limbs easily being possible to get to Doom's height as opposed to, say, Pistol Packin' Possum, let alone Betty Boop's line about how folks like her haven't gotten work since technicolor, which was more so reflected in one of the Roger comics via a sorta Felix knockoff scamming other inkblot characters into a fake quick fix colorization effort that lasted a few hours at most. In short, maybe it was a toon from the sort of era that Baron von Rotten was hinted to be from that did spawn from Disney's early efforts due to the explanation of being from Kansas City when Walt started Laff-o-grams, tried to go to technicolor, but it failed in such an immense way that his life of crime was started by default because he couldn't get work due to being garish, even by toon standards.
I like this theory, especially since the brightest colors that would contrast with Black and White would be something eye catching and draws attention, like Yellow or Red. Colored comics also mostly focused in Red Yellow Blue technicolor in early comics too.
That's the point. Judge doom is a stand in to how evil is present even in a time of toonish innocents. Evil is always present to counter the good. Balance. Honestly I think we have a bendy and the ink machine situation here.
Here’s another headcanon/theory that I’m almost certain nobody has come up with yet, but not as for Baron Von Rottens identity, rather where his toon-endgameing substance came from: The Wasteland. In the Epic Mickey game series, it’s revealed that all forgotten and unused toon characters go to the Wasteland, which is a Bioshock-was failed paradise turned into a gothic horror show due to Mickeys misactions. The two prime magical substances of this world is a blue “Paint” that heals items, places and toons, and a Green “Thinner” which erases them… Toons brought to Wasteland aren’t necessarily stuck there. They can make Shows and broadcast them to the Toon world which eventually will allow them to rejoin them. Barron Von Rotten may have been a forgotten character living in Wasteland who wanted revenge on the other Toons who were beloved and remembered, so he acted as villians of various shows that weren’t his true identity, gathered a bunch of Thinner and passed it off as his own creation.
I have like three clowns of me running around out there. One looks like me but tall and dark another just like a friends brother only my hair is not blond and I do not have blue eyes and the last one who is not me apparently looks so much like me that officer let me go after I was speeding as they thought I was a police officer myself and they told me some lieutenant was upset with me and that I needed to hurry up and turn my paperwork in. Of course I said oh yeah sure okay and then went home. Sometime later my uncle called congratulating me on being on TV as the officer was on Fox News about pet adoption. Strange I thought I said clones oh well I'm too lazy right now to go back and correct it.
I agree some villains just need mystery. These days with everything being explained in movies. So they can set up the next, but if the villain keeps being a mystery, that's more a setup to an part two than if you know everything about him already. But that's my opinion.
those weasels in the comic, though, aren't Judge Doom, and they were never treated as equals by Judge Doom. The Doom they make in their desperate need to recreate the safety they felt as minions of their leader is not the original Judge Doom, it's a John Frumm situation
Crazy is just crazy. Like the Joker you should never really know who he was. It takes the mystery out of it. Him just being an unknown lets that mystery play out in your head. Sometimes the less we know about a character the better they are. The fun is the mystery of the unknown like characters in many movies when you detail all there is to know about them you lessen their worth.
Yeah I agree, I really didn't like the comic's depiction of the character. It was way too corny and on the nose, the artist even drew him to look like the rubber mask Doom wore in the movie which to me indicates a strange lack of familiarity with the source material. In the movie, Judge Doom is legitimately threatening. The scene with the cartoon shoe (you know the one) actually disturbed me as a child, and the movie was all the more effective for it. It still hits me as an adult. The comic just makes him look like a Rocky and Bullwinkle villain. It's definitely better to keep the character's identity ambiguous in this case.
For decades I've thought the Joker is Bruce Wayne's half brother...they share the same psychological profile...and I think the Joker knows it...he just didn't have Alfred channeling his psychosis into more proper channels... just a opinion
Місяць тому+72
Judge Doom is a Mouse. You see Mickey, to start a conversation and avoid possible questions, he asked first who judge Doom really was. Hes not a rabbit, duck, dog, wooden boy, sheep, cat, woodpecker... My theory is that Mickey hired Judge Doom to acomplish the masterplan to build that crap of a highway. But that highway would destroy the toons, and all characters would be forced to go to Disney studios to sell themselfes. Just like in the present time, Disney is buying averything!
Since the film is pretty much the only time Warner Bros and Disney characters have appeared on screen together, it implies a shared multiverse. So my theory is that Judge Doom is an alternate version of Doc Brown who got jaded by seeing both the past and present and became obsessed with cartoons, so much so that he fashioned a machine to turn himself into one. The whole "where we're going, we don't need roads" thing became inverted in his mind, which is where he got the idea for the highway cutting through Toon Town. And maybe he even faked his own death in the end and managed to jump to some other point in time, to hatch some other scheme later on and get his revenge.
I never thought he was soaking in a pool of yellow paint, I've always believed that was a puddle of left over dip surrounding his clothes & mask. That's why the other toons never got to close at the end when surrounding him.
7:20 "Not everything needs a definitive answer. Some things are more fun left up to the imagination" -- That's David Lynch's whole philosophy on moviemaking and it results in great stuff
I like the theory that he might’ve been a version of the genie from the book, but what makes him so memorable is the fact that you just have no idea who he could be. Villains that seem to come from nowhere are some of the scariest.
I developed my own camera film all the way up until 2016 and can probably predict based on my (occassional) screw-ups the chemicals wouldn't always play nice. Our mystery character, being a toon, would've been composed partially of many pains and chemicals itself and had a bad reaction to the Dip leaving it yellow. If my timing was off and/or had a bad mixture then my prints would've been sepia tone instead of b&w. Even worse "accident" found was those bad batches would also drip onto over-exposed photos and invert the colors. Just something to think about. We're talking about entities which are brought to life through sketch, ink, photo, then paints or other chemicals. For all we know this critter had red or purple blood.
I always assumed the "yellow paint" was just leftover dip, I hadn't connected it to his shapeshifting hands. But that makes sense with the red point of the eyes leaking out of the mask. I think I thought that was blood, actually...
In the comic, it isn't just Doom that leaves yellow ink behind, but the weasels as well, suggesting this might just be a byproduct of interacting with Dip. If that's the case, then the Pistol Packing Possum argument jumps right back to top of the list, since he himself doesn't have to be yellow. As far as his hands being yellow, Doom wouldn't be the first toon to shapeshift part of his body. While a character like Popeye might gain flesh-colored anvil hands, I'm sure somewhere in the entire history of cartoons, somewhere a character did such a transformation that didn't retain their natural flesh color, but instead took on the hue of the object in question. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I'm sure someone else could.
For all the reasons you mentioned, I never liked the Baron Von Rotten backstory. It's like the creators of that comic forgot that Doom was supposed to be a disguise. I also don't put any stock in the Pistol Packin' Possum fan theory; I very much doubt that Zemeckis or anybody else on the production was thinking that deeply about the poster. Besides not being yellow, Doom's apparent shapeshifting ability doesn't seem to fit with a character like that. It's fun to speculate about what he might have looked like under the mask, but I agree that leaving it a mystery is preferable to a definitive answer.
I think the yellow remains is just creative direction. I would say that it's just the Dip. Dip is yellow, and if you disolve a toon in it, you'd get a yellow puddle of dip with some.... bits... in it. I know his saw/hammer hand was yellow, but to make it stand out it, I guess yellow is pretty impactful. I wouldn't stretch to assume that means the character *has* to be yellow. Just my two cents.
I watched this as a kid and either there's a mandela effect or my family made up a very detailed headcanon for no reason. But I swear that it was explained somewhere in the movie that the villain was half-toon... Like a hybrid who's mother was a human and who's father was a toon. If I'm not misremembering then could it be possible that Pistol Packing Possum was his father. I could kinda see that being a thing in the movie's logic. Did I hear the half-toon thing on the Roger Rabbit ride in Disney maybe? There's alot of info dumping and lore on the decorations in line for the rides so maybe?
@ Yeah your right. Its crazy. I literally watched it a couple hours ago just to see and ig I must’ve imagined that memory, cause its NOWHERE in it lol but the fact that I’ve heard it somewhere probably means it was either a theory or a cut concept maybe
I think it would be great if they released multiple other comics that had completely different origins for judge doom, to show that none of the origins are quite reliable, maybe parts of them really happened but we never know the whole story truthfully.
Nah, it was already confirmed he was the hunter who killed Bambi's mother. He never had a face to begin with, just a piano, a gun, and the enjoyment of hunting toons. Him dropping his piano just added a new animal to hunt, because as it turns out humans splatter too. He doesn't truly exist, he's the form imagined by the audience hidden away from the lens of a camera, a monster.
@@almessasorrow4950 Except Bambi would have been a movie in this universe, too. That doesn't hold up unless you're saying the deer that played the role of Bambi's Mother got the The Raven treatment.
@@shaynehughes6645 as a role he might have played, but Bambi only came out a couple years before RR took place. It's also possible that they didn't follow through because they didn't want the film to feel like it leaned too heavily in favor of one of the Big Two over the other.
This other channel I subscribe to was talking about this recently. Coincidentally he's also from Minnesota. I do agree that we don't need an explanation for everything though. I think the mystery surrounding Judge Doom will always be more interesting than actually knowing who he is.
Definitely curious to check out that other channel and see their video…I’m really into this topic haha. And I agree…the mystery in itself makes him such an interesting character.
It's honestly never occurred to me to speculate about who Judge Doom was, and I've been watching this movie since the mid 90s. To me it's not important, I just assumed he was a generic toon guy under the mask I guess. If he was a recognizable character, I'd be interested to know who he was, but I'm 99% sure he's just a generic toon who happens to be evil for reasons.
The Pistol Packing Possum makes a lot of sense to me. It at least in some way points to why a humanoid Toon would empty weasels. While Opossums and Weasels are not related, they are both very similar "back yard pests." As for the yellow - I've always suspected that the puddle at the end of the movie had it's color appear more yellow because it is left over Dip. It even appears yellow in the shot of it leaving the nozel when Roger and Jessica are trying to avoid its stream. The yellow hand... while I can't explain that, I can aaaume that Toons might change color. We see it happen numerous times in the movie; Roger holding his breath, the hot sauce ...
Judge Doom is a interesting character, I think he might have been a extra character or minor character that did roles that wasn't the main characters. Sort of like a every man. Maybe the studio needed someone to play a cop, or ambulance actor, maybe a random robber, a studio director, detective, exterminator, a judge... Doom likely saw his career assuming he had one as a dead end or he got shafted from money or similar, and or maybe the method acting he had to do went to his head and suffered a mental breakdown and personality disorder. There are hints that early toons were suffering. Betty Boop was a cocktail waitress in the film due to lack of work, for example, Jessica Rabbit was a pinup that found a successful husband and likely she was created for the late 30s or early 40s her roles done as toons resorted to more child friendly films after the war. hmm. Its also possible Doom might have been a out of work actor that did cartoon work in the 30s and 40s leading up to the war.
Maybe Pistol Packin’ Possum was von Dooms attempt at changing his persona to the protagonist since he played so many villains. When the show didn’t make Maroon money, he fired Von Doom and that’s what made him try to destroy Toon Town. Like the jealous girlfriend/boyfriend, “if I can’t be a beloved character then no one can.” Disappointed I just found your channel though. Subbing now.
It's been a long time since I've seen Roger rabbit, and I've only realized I never knew the identity of judge doom till this video ended up in my recommended. Good work, you've left me with something to ponder about.
Great video, this was very interesting stuff. I always wondered who he was myself since a child, and the mystery continues as far as I'm concerned. Like you said, the fun is in the mystery! Like the old saying goes "It's the journey, not the destination". Great job on this, I've subscribed! 💕
There's a lot of compelling evidence for Pistol Packing Possum, but his eyes are most certainly not red like Doom's. The close-up at 3:09 clearly shows light brown eyes. Still a possibility though.
I've always interpreted the yellow pool around his remains to just be dip™️. But now that you mention it it's much more opaque and yellow. It could just be some continuity error, but I agree that it probably is his melted body. It could be tinted by dip, but the yellow hand suggests not. Depending on what pigments and mixes used, colors can change in drastic and surprising ways when dissolved
I didn't know I needed to think about this, but now I am. You monster. Thanks for the video, I always loved WFRR and any excuse to go back and watch it again is welcome! :)
well it does make sense that doom's original form would be more human-like since it would make it far easier for him to disguise himself as a human. plus there are plenty of human-like toons.
Maybe he originates from one of those gags where the camera pulls back and you see a cartoonified version of the animator, drawing the cartoon. That's why he looks human, and since it's just a one-off gag, so he was abandoned after that without a job and turned to crime to survive. It would explain why he looks down on other toons, since he is a representation of a human who manipulates toons for his own profit and amusement.
I agree with you. Some things are best left unknown. That's like, did you ever see Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget? Not in the cartoon, no, but there was an action figure! And it's as disappointing as one might expect, maybe more so.
I have never seen this movie nor any videos from this channel but man oh man, one heck of a video 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽 This is the kind of content we need 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
Looking at cartoon characters that could fit the bill for Judge Doom, there is one that I found that is real interesting, but despite being old, might not be old enough for the setting. The very first version of PacMan. That version was an odd yellow dude with feet, no arms, and very red eyes. With the shapeshifting aspect of Doom's arms, it is reasonable that he might have the ability to retract them completely. It might even give him reason, if he was created to sell the games, only to be rejected immediately for a "better" version Again, it is basically impossible, but very interesting
I think even knowing he's someone named baron von rotten doesn't take away too much of the mystery. After all, he is a toon known for playing different characters and after his accident changed him, who knows what the person he was like before. Maybe that's why he would stay in character so often, because he doesn't really know who he is anymore?
I don’t believe the hand is shape shifting rather he’s using an acme product. I don’t consider the comic canon at all as it was written after and not by the movie writer so they never took their intentions properly. Also Baron vonRotten does not appear or get referenced in the movie and it’s bad writing to make it someone you never see or hear about during the mystery. The other thing is all the characters of real consequence are original characters, all the existing characters are cameos with not a huge affect on the plot so he’s not likely an existing character so Pistol Packin’ Pete is the only real choice (Baby Herman is in that final scene right?)
If it was just a prop, then Eddie's line about the paint left behind matching the paint from Acme's murder (which was used to frame Roger, given his color scheme) wouldn't make sense. It would just tie the paint back to the acme factory and not solve that case as the film was insinuating.
never really thought about that, tho, it would be simple to label him like Clayface or Hush, changing forms so much his true identity unknown yet his motives are usually bad, yet makes it interesting because it keeps the mystery alive
I always thought since I was a kid that Judge Doom is a golden robot toon. It made the most sense to me since he was able to change his own body parts into weapons like a saw blade, boxing gloves, springs from the feet, even turning his eyes into daggers. It would also explain why he’s so heartless, soulless even, since robots have neither, and his plan has both logic put behind it, yet funnily enough can be ironically illogical, and it’s part of industrialization which is known for its metal works, something robots are known for as well. The fact that Doom is a soulless being similar to an automaton who is only interested in progress and doesn’t care who gets hurt in the process, even at his own cold hands is also great satire for both the story and the times it portrayed. I always imagined that under the mask he had a rectangular mouth with razor sharp teeth, a cylindrical head and round soul piercing eyes. Thinking about it still freaks me out to this day.
Puzzles like this always remind me of the old bit from Alice in Wonderland "How is a raven like a writing desk?". When the phrase was first written, it was designed to have no answer, just a bit of madness from the Hatter. But after years of people asking, the answer "Both are prone to a few good notes, and both are never [spelt 'nevar'] put backwards." was coined.
If cartoons are real in this universe it makes me wonder if realistic cartoons exist in it? I suppose there was not a lot of animation that wasn't explicitly geared toward comedy and humor, but I still wonder how, like, a Ralph Bakshi cartoon would fit into the lore.
I like that people are still thinking about this. I felt like that was maybe a weaker part of the film, where he's revealed to be a sort of human cartoon, disguised as it later suggests, and we're supposed to just go OK. It was more that the judge's identity was undermined more than a sort of Scooby Doo style mask-off moment to me. In noir/pulp fashion some mystery is left behind, threads unresolved, but it's a fairly satisfying wrap-up all the same since it gives Eddie some closure and gets rid of the main antagonist at the same time
being a cartoon villain, he is subject to the number one cartoon villain rule: Always give yourself away. "Yourself" in this instance shows up with him playing a character called Judge Doom. the 2 examples shown in the comic present him as the classic Disney "what the fuck, is it a dog or a rodent?" look, and so I am inclined to believe that is closer to his true form. granted they could have just said that in the comic, but that is absolutely no fun. thanks for this thought provoking video about one of my favorite movies!
I would look for any classic cartoon villain who can shapeshift their limbs & is humanoid. Even if your off & it gets more into fan theories, I think it would be more fun to link Judge Doom to an establish character rather then a character made up for the movie.
Oh my god i loved this film, and i wish they did a spin-off or a sequel to the film, it's such a shame it was so difficult to make, so we probably won't get another film quite like it.
One thing I like about the opossum option is that often those and weasels are confused for each other. (I mean, I don't think they look anything alike, but apparently, this *is* an issue.) This could explain why all his henchmen are weasels.
Something I’ve been wondering for a while now is how characters in the WFRR universe would respond to the advent of toons who were intentionally drawn to be as unhinged and violent as possible; not just adult-oriented TV shows like Family Guy or South Park, but the edgy and crass online projects of the 2000’s with no networks to hold them back (Happy Tree Friends, Tank Men, Classic Eddsworld, Madness, pretty much anything made on Newgrounds for Pico Day, etc). What if it possibly caused social unrest among the older toons, afraid that one of these newer characters could become the next Judge Doom? It would make for an interesting parallel to the moral panic of the 90’s and 2000’s, where parent groups were convinced that violent shows, websites, and video games were turning their children into future criminals.
I would have preferred if Doom turned out to be a real (but obscure) cartoon character of the era, like that one Animaniacs episode where Buddy turned out to be the villain.
Hold the phone a bit... When Judge Doom's Eyes in his rubber mask turn into cartoon daggers, there's yellow paint on his inner eyes! There's also color to consider as well... Orange, like his hair, is used with red & yellow. So that would probably explain why he could use yellow paint, he could use yellow paint because part of him was made from it.
I like to think Judge Doom was more or less the toon version of John Capenter's the thing, minus the absorption ability. He might as well be if he can change his appearance.
Historical theory: Judge Doom is real-life Harry Chandler. The judge is portrayed as "yellow" or gold because he is a wealthy traitor to the historical communities of LA. Look at a picture of Harry Chandler's bug-eyed stare behind his glasses. The movie is an acidic criticism of Chandler as a joyless husk of a virtuous person, who gradually became a cartoon caricature of a human being. Chandler was a business owner, investor and real-estate speculator who later married Harrison Gray Otis's daughter, thus securing a place for himself in LA society. Otis owned the LA times. After Otis's death, Chandler became publisher of the Times. Chandler also became a community leader, initially helping found the Pacific Electric streetcar system, as well as the Automobile Club of Southern CA. Chandler supported eugenics through the "Human Betterment Foundation." He formed the Major Highways Committee (MHC) in Los Angeles to boost real estate development. He also used the newspaper to sway public opinion in favor of building the freeway system which demolished low-income and minority neighborhoods.
@@TheoRae8289 Yes, considering that the cartoon characters in the movie become creations that are more humane than real people, then ... Using the film's internal logic, why couldn't a real-life human being make themselves into a grotesque imitation of a cartoon? Just like the wicked witch of Oz, Judge Doom is a symbol of twisted human nature based upon real people.
wild theory. Judge Doom was a cartoon extra, unnamed, no lines, a face in the crowd. its why nobody knew who he was before he put on the mask. he was just "bystander 3" or "Thug 5". just a nebulas character with what ever skill is required to make the episode work. need a blacksmith he has an anvil, need a lumberjack he's got a saw. just a cartoon method actor who lost his mind.
Doom is Bane confirmed... :p
Nebulous?
Now, I really like this and think it would be a good thread to explore in a prequel movie.
Okay, I actually really like that. Headcanon accepted!
Oh yeah there was a line that was cut where he admits he's the hunter who shot Bambi's mom
If only they hadn't deleted the line about Doom being the hunter who killed Bambi's mom.
That way we would know for sure he was... An unnamed man... Who never appeared on screen.
Oh I know…I love that idea. Thanks, Disney. 🙄
I like the idea that Gaston from Beauty and the Beast killed Bambi's mom more.
@@Channel9001 I do like that idea, but Bambi explicitly takes place in North America because Bambi is a white-tailed deer, while Beauty and the Beast explicitly takes place in France, so I personally can't enter it into head canon.
That would be cool. Who killed Todd's mother in the fox in the hound was it Coper's owner or an unknown? Off screen kablam! It doesn't happen too often in toons.
@@choronoswell the original story of Bambi took place in Europe but in the 20th century
We never see that possum though, i believe he was Judge's first victim of The Dip, and he kept the Gun.
Hm…I’ve never considered that. I like it.
Yeah, especially because Doom only played villains, and the possum must have been a good guy if he was the main character of a kids cartoon.
@@theghosty99 Except that cartoons weren't originally directed at children .. a crooked possum getting the one up on a bumbling beat cop wouldn't be a far fetched plot point.
@@theghosty99 besides the comic which was written after the fact so it’s basically fan fiction what information tells us he only played villains?
I think Doom was the main villain for the Pistol Possum, like Professor Moriarty was for Sherlock Holmes. He probably used a different name too, the Baron Von Rotten name, (real or another of his alias') would have been the 1 used.
my personal headcanon actually comes from cool world. Original the movie was supposed to be about a seriel killer who was the offspring of a human and a toon. I could imagine Doom being like this. Thats why he can easily look like a regular human but also has toon "powers".
Offspring of a human and a toon. Welp. That gave me mental images that I can't ever unsee >.
@@Nodd18don't blame them though
Cool world is one of those movies that needs a remake. If that ever happens someday they should definitely go with the original idea.
So with characters like Betty Boop and Jessica Rabbit being extremely lusted over this has some pretty Jim Crow er implications. I'm actually on board for it
@@Nodd18 I mean in Cool World they actually f*ck and it turns a toon into a human. Or rather turns a "Doodle" human. (since they couldn't legally use the term Toon)
Cool World deserves a good remake, it was such an acid trip of a movie!
Here's my theory:
Going back to the books, the main villain Eddie fights, was a cartoon Genie with powers.
My personal view is that Judge doom is this Genie. Which is why he posseses great strength by tossing Eddie and can shapeshift his hand into an anvil or a working buzz saw.
My assumption is that he's some 'gold colored' and 'red eyed' Genie, as after Judge Doom melted, the ink around him is completely gold-yellow (with the exception of his red eyes)
The Genie in the book was defeated by having his lamp placed under water, while Judge doom was defeated by being dissolving into liquid dip.
And on top of that, some say that when Judge Doom's eyes turn into daggers, they are designed off of middle eastern ones. The same place and origins of where a Genie would come from. Allegedly.
THIS this theory right here is my new favorite. Sorry, Rim-Jam.
This is the first theory that sounds like it's had some actual thought put into it.
Holy smokes, I read the book and I STILL didn’t consider the genie. I think you’ve got a solid theory.
There is fanart of the genie's teakettle with the evil eyes peaking out from under the lid; it's a striking image that helps illustrate this theory..I like it better than the "Baron Von Rotten" origin because it goes back to using a concept from the book - kinda like how Doom being a toon is based on the DeGreasey Brothers being toons that used the genie's power to become humans.
@@josephadorno92 show us this fan art. The official book didn't have much atual art, even for a cover. And it makes roger look like a mascot costume.
I never liked the Baron Von Rotten explanation. Having him be a toon that went crazy after playing villains is much less compelling than a toon who of their own volition decided to put together a scheme that made him rich at others expense
The thing is, he didn't just "go crazy", he was given very clear brain damage on-set.
As a kid, I never understood why Roger got upset about the patty cake game. I was a dumb kid
No worries…I didn’t get back then either haha
Yeah, this was up there with The Naked Gun when Frank says Nice beaver, and she says Thanks I just had it stuffed. I was a kid looking at my dad howling at a taxidermied beaver and having no idea what the joke was. I asked my dad why it was funny and he gave me the old Some day you'll understand
Definitely something that I never understood as a kid but rewatching as an adult I suddenly got the sneaky innuendo
@@billyvsbilly1 not quite the same…
But, did you ever notice that the cartoon bullet that smashes the booze bottle is Native American?
As an adult the meaning is obvious, but it’s a reference to the line
“What were they doing there?” “Well, they weren’t playing patty-cake..”
Don’t know where it’s from, but probably a Sam Spade novel or movie.
Perhaps the shape changing yellow hand was actually one of the props?
WAIT. Pistol Packing Possum is dressed like a gangster.. as are the Weasels.. which are both, y'know, rodent-type animals...
The Weasels were probably PPP's goons in the cartoon! Also, I'm fairly sure the yellow 'paint' is just leftover Dip. Tan or flesh color could easily break down into yellow, as well.
Bruh. It's the PPP. That's so cool.
weasels are mustelids, possums are marsupials - neither are rodents geez.
The yellow paint is actually a key plot point. One of the reasons why they accused Roger of the crime was because Roger has yellow gloves and they found yellow paint on the rope tied to the safe that killed Acme.
At the end standing over Dooms melted body, Eddie hands the rope with the yellow paint to his colleague and says he's certain the paint from Doom's body is a perfect match.
So yeah, Doom was definitely a yellow color.
@@omnesilereI'm here to say that, not a single rodent on the list lol
@@omnesilere nerd
@noremac7216 & @omnesilere
Brethren!! I'm an oft-irked botanist. It is an _absolute pleasure_ to find a set of zoologists such as yourselves in this Comments Section! 🫡
6:18
Judge Doom doesn't actually seem like a super cunning villain. I mean, sure, the whole scheme in Who Framed Roger Rabbit was pretty intricate and well thought out. But its also utterly insane, a long winding plot concocted by a Scooby-Doo villain than the most efficient way to exterminate all 'Toons. In the context of the movie, yeah it kinda needed to happen that way to make a good mystery. Imo, Judge Doom is a 'Toon at heart, more intoxicated with being evil and executing a villainous plan like his characters more than anything.
They do address this in the movie. When Eddie confronts Doom in the finale, he points out how absurd the whole scheme really is, and that this actually only makes sense for an insane toon to do. Honestly, one of the best lampshade moments I've ever seen a script do, since it allows the writers to justify the winding mystery plot perfectly.
Also fits with the reoccurring theme toons can’t fight their nature. Jessica can’t help acting sexy, Roger can’t help being clownish, so doom can’t be as serious as he probably wants to be.
Judge Doom's scheme is based on a real corporate conspiracy that actually happened.
The toons in the movie are stand-ins for black performers in early Hollywood, so Toontown represents black and other minority neighborhoods that were bulldozed to build the freeway, often while giving residents little warning or time to even evacuate the area, as I recall.
I always thought Cool World would have been a separate dimensional space, seeing as all of the ambiance is based of graphic novel/comic book art rather than the animated focus of Toontown.
@@MidlifeCrisisJoe Then let me blow your mind by telling you that scheme actually happened. In 1949, General motors and several other companies were convicted of conspiracy to create a monopoly on buses, fuel, and supplies, and as part of the scheme, they had bought up and shuttered transit services in 25 cities across the US. The were ultimately acquitted somehow on monopoly charges related to the transit systems specifically, but basically it went down in reality exactly as Doom planned. The video and most people talking about the scheme miss the point. Doom didn't kill the toons because he wanted to get rid of Toontown, that was just a byproduct of wanting to be a monopolist billionaire.
I'm thinking Doom was created by an independent Ralph Bakshi type operating outside whatever their equivalent of the Hayes Code was. ... And I just remembered Cool World existed.
7:46 Even though it's terrifying, gotta love the visual pun. He's staring daggers - literally!
I’ve always loved that!
@@TwinePoodleWhat does that meen?
also: "Barron"'s just an everyday disguise and the real "doom" is a shape-shifter toon, whose true color is piss yellow with red eyes, "Barron" was just a fake name to rename anonymous when acting as varies different characters.
An intruiging part is, when the toons see his remains, they jovially remark on what he certainly wasn't. Which does imply that he wasn't anyone the WB or Disney toons where familiar with.
Here's a fun theory that just popped into the ol' noggin. What if he was an old design of a more popular character? Like Oswald for Mickey, or Tom & Jerry's 1st designs (who didn't even have those names yet). Maybe some cartoon villains 1st draft got a life of it's own, before any short was even finished, and set about concocting a scheme, based on some loose ideas a couple of drunk guys in a termite infested studio while brainstorming the next star the big cats been looking for?
The world may never know.
This was my head canon, he was an unfinished toon, it was the reason why he was able to shift shape and also why his mind was messed up.
Oswald the Lucky Rabbit is not an old design of Mickey Mouse.
@@releasethedogs no but yes, his design was the basis for Mickey.
That is interesting, maybe he was the first draft of a famous character, but his design got scrapped and he went nuts.
My theory is that... that was the point. it was a toon that no matter how many roles he played (like pistol possum. or his last play... DOom) No one ever knew who he was. to me Doom was pissed at Toontown. His convoluted plan was not the highway. the highway was a mean for an end. The end was striking toon town back in revenge for his failed career
My understanding was that in an early draft of the film's script, Doom was supposed to be the hunter who shot Bambi's mother, "Man". This has always been my personal headcannon on the subject because it is just so completely random.
still funny to think that he is the guy who shot bambis mom AND Pistol Packing Possum
"REMEMBER ME, EDDIE?"
"WHEN I KILLED YOUR BROTHER?"
Judge Doom is the living proof why cartoon characters roaming in our actual world would be terrifying
There's a really thin line between 'toon' and 'eldritch abomination.'
The whole thing about buying up the public transport to force the freeways actually happened
It wasn’t to force freeways, but to sell tires and put the trolleys out of business. But yes, it was a real conspiracy.
At one point in my youth I remember thinking Judge Doom was yellow because it was supposed to be a dig at the Simpsons. The Simpsons were controversial when it first debuted on FOX and the idea of a new edgy cartoon being the villain to these classic cartoon characters sort of made sense. As such, technically Judge Doom was Bart Simpson only not in any legal sense. Then it dawned on me that the Simpsons didn't debut on FOX until late 1989 and Who Framed Roger Rabbit came out in 1988. Sure they had started out on the Tracey Ullman Show in 1987 but I can't imagine the makers of the Roger Rabbit would have cared or even knew they existed in order to include them in anyway.
He's homer when possessed by pazuzu
The movie also takes place in the 1930s so they would be 50 year old cartoons until they aired on tv.
Look at 6:15, look at Doom's eyelids. They are not yellow/gold, they are beige. The only yellow parts we see are his hand, and the bottoms of his feet (the springs). He augmented those himself, with his ink-and-paint supplies, to give himself superpowers. To make weapons that enormous, he would have had to use a large amount of paint, drowning out and dominating the coloring of his remains.
Especially if he were only the size of....a POSSUM!
@@TheWesterlyWarlock I just think PPP is where Doom acquired the weasels.
Finally, someone answering the real questions! Do the backstory for the bullets next.
I have to admit; I didn't fully understand the plot of this movie my entire time, I just enjoyed it and I knew there was a cat and mouse detective story with a slapstick sidekick and some shenanigans going on. You just laid out the plot so beautifully and descriptively that its wonderful to hear. Thank you for the content.
Thank you, I’m glad you enjoyed it 😃
I'm not 100% on board with that comic's explanation, but I DO like the idea that Judge Doom was a toon dating back to the early 1920s silent B&W cartoons, like the era of Koko the Clown, Felix the Cat and Walt Disney's Alice comedies. In those old cartoons the characters shape-shift all the time, so that's how the Judge turns his arm into an anvil, a saw, etc. But from there, I personally like the idea that once cartoons advanced past rubber hose silents, and sound and color became all the rage, Doom (like Betty Boop) became obsolete and lost his career. Then eventually grew so bitter he went mad and decided to destroy all cartoon characters as revenge. The simplicity is what makes this theory my favorite.
I like this. Personally, it always felt that Doom had some personal vendetta against the toons and why he is so bent to destroying Toontown
My controversial take is much like your own, but I'd also like to throw in my own concept.
What if the toon in question was a rubberhose character? I mean, given a certain wonderful cat's proclivity for a yellow bag that can turn into anything, the typical rubberhose era toon's ability to stretch their limbs easily being possible to get to Doom's height as opposed to, say, Pistol Packin' Possum, let alone Betty Boop's line about how folks like her haven't gotten work since technicolor, which was more so reflected in one of the Roger comics via a sorta Felix knockoff scamming other inkblot characters into a fake quick fix colorization effort that lasted a few hours at most. In short, maybe it was a toon from the sort of era that Baron von Rotten was hinted to be from that did spawn from Disney's early efforts due to the explanation of being from Kansas City when Walt started Laff-o-grams, tried to go to technicolor, but it failed in such an immense way that his life of crime was started by default because he couldn't get work due to being garish, even by toon standards.
Hmm that’s very interesting…I can definitely get behind that being the reason he went mad.
I like this theory, especially since the brightest colors that would contrast with Black and White would be something eye catching and draws attention, like Yellow or Red. Colored comics also mostly focused in Red Yellow Blue technicolor in early comics too.
I think he's just a shape-shifter who doesn't have a form, explaining how he was able to form weapons from his body.
That's the point.
Judge doom is a stand in to how evil is present even in a time of toonish innocents.
Evil is always present to counter the good. Balance.
Honestly I think we have a bendy and the ink machine situation here.
Here’s another headcanon/theory that I’m almost certain nobody has come up with yet, but not as for Baron Von Rottens identity, rather where his toon-endgameing substance came from: The Wasteland. In the Epic Mickey game series, it’s revealed that all forgotten and unused toon characters go to the Wasteland, which is a Bioshock-was failed paradise turned into a gothic horror show due to Mickeys misactions. The two prime magical substances of this world is a blue “Paint” that heals items, places and toons, and a Green “Thinner” which erases them… Toons brought to Wasteland aren’t necessarily stuck there. They can make Shows and broadcast them to the Toon world which eventually will allow them to rejoin them.
Barron Von Rotten may have been a forgotten character living in Wasteland who wanted revenge on the other Toons who were beloved and remembered, so he acted as villians of various shows that weren’t his true identity, gathered a bunch of Thinner and passed it off as his own creation.
This is such a great video. Very underrated channel
Thank you so much! ☺️
Dude... You look like Jim Hopper
I’ve been told that a lot…and I’m okay with that 🙂
@RIMJAM I would be too, I'd take that as a very high compliment 😁 Hopper is a damn good character to be compared to 😉
@@TwinePoodle Reminds me of how people have always compared me to John Candy. Thanks for the compliment! I love John
I have like three clowns of me running around out there. One looks like me but tall and dark another just like a friends brother only my hair is not blond and I do not have blue eyes and the last one who is not me apparently looks so much like me that officer let me go after I was speeding as they thought I was a police officer myself and they told me some lieutenant was upset with me and that I needed to hurry up and turn my paperwork in. Of course I said oh yeah sure okay and then went home. Sometime later my uncle called congratulating me on being on TV as the officer was on Fox News about pet adoption. Strange I thought I said clones oh well I'm too lazy right now to go back and correct it.
if he was just a little drunk and did a sortve angry look itd be a dead ringer i feel like
I agree some villains just need mystery. These days with everything being explained in movies. So they can set up the next, but if the villain keeps being a mystery, that's more a setup to an part two than if you know everything about him already. But that's my opinion.
The judge was a toon Swiss Army knife.
those weasels in the comic, though, aren't Judge Doom, and they were never treated as equals by Judge Doom. The Doom they make in their desperate need to recreate the safety they felt as minions of their leader is not the original Judge Doom, it's a John Frumm situation
Crazy is just crazy. Like the Joker you should never really know who he was. It takes the mystery out of it. Him just being an unknown lets that mystery play out in your head. Sometimes the less we know about a character the better they are. The fun is the mystery of the unknown like characters in many movies when you detail all there is to know about them you lessen their worth.
Yeah I agree, I really didn't like the comic's depiction of the character. It was way too corny and on the nose, the artist even drew him to look like the rubber mask Doom wore in the movie which to me indicates a strange lack of familiarity with the source material. In the movie, Judge Doom is legitimately threatening. The scene with the cartoon shoe (you know the one) actually disturbed me as a child, and the movie was all the more effective for it. It still hits me as an adult. The comic just makes him look like a Rocky and Bullwinkle villain. It's definitely better to keep the character's identity ambiguous in this case.
For decades I've thought the Joker is Bruce Wayne's half brother...they share the same psychological profile...and I think the Joker knows it...he just didn't have Alfred channeling his psychosis into more proper channels... just a opinion
Judge Doom is a Mouse. You see Mickey, to start a conversation and avoid possible questions, he asked first who judge Doom really was. Hes not a rabbit, duck, dog, wooden boy, sheep, cat, woodpecker... My theory is that Mickey hired Judge Doom to acomplish the masterplan to build that crap of a highway. But that highway would destroy the toons, and all characters would be forced to go to Disney studios to sell themselfes. Just like in the present time, Disney is buying averything!
It's a fun theory, but I can't see Mickey in the 80s/90s even conceiving a plan that convoluted and evil
He didn't have anything to do with it, but these days he's wishing he'd thought of it... oh well he can just buy them
Since the film is pretty much the only time Warner Bros and Disney characters have appeared on screen together, it implies a shared multiverse. So my theory is that Judge Doom is an alternate version of Doc Brown who got jaded by seeing both the past and present and became obsessed with cartoons, so much so that he fashioned a machine to turn himself into one. The whole "where we're going, we don't need roads" thing became inverted in his mind, which is where he got the idea for the highway cutting through Toon Town. And maybe he even faked his own death in the end and managed to jump to some other point in time, to hatch some other scheme later on and get his revenge.
Dip is a real thing. It was used to clean old cells so that they could be used again.
He's Inspector Gadget.
Yeah a gold twisted version of inspector gadget
I never thought he was soaking in a pool of yellow paint, I've always believed that was a puddle of left over dip surrounding his clothes & mask. That's why the other toons never got to close at the end when surrounding him.
7:20 "Not everything needs a definitive answer. Some things are more fun left up to the imagination" -- That's David Lynch's whole philosophy on moviemaking and it results in great stuff
I like the theory that he might’ve been a version of the genie from the book, but what makes him so memorable is the fact that you just have no idea who he could be. Villains that seem to come from nowhere are some of the scariest.
I developed my own camera film all the way up until 2016 and can probably predict based on my (occassional) screw-ups the chemicals wouldn't always play nice. Our mystery character, being a toon, would've been composed partially of many pains and chemicals itself and had a bad reaction to the Dip leaving it yellow. If my timing was off and/or had a bad mixture then my prints would've been sepia tone instead of b&w. Even worse "accident" found was those bad batches would also drip onto over-exposed photos and invert the colors.
Just something to think about. We're talking about entities which are brought to life through sketch, ink, photo, then paints or other chemicals. For all we know this critter had red or purple blood.
I always assumed the "yellow paint" was just leftover dip, I hadn't connected it to his shapeshifting hands.
But that makes sense with the red point of the eyes leaking out of the mask. I think I thought that was blood, actually...
In the comic, it isn't just Doom that leaves yellow ink behind, but the weasels as well, suggesting this might just be a byproduct of interacting with Dip. If that's the case, then the Pistol Packing Possum argument jumps right back to top of the list, since he himself doesn't have to be yellow. As far as his hands being yellow, Doom wouldn't be the first toon to shapeshift part of his body. While a character like Popeye might gain flesh-colored anvil hands, I'm sure somewhere in the entire history of cartoons, somewhere a character did such a transformation that didn't retain their natural flesh color, but instead took on the hue of the object in question. I can't think of an example off the top of my head, but I'm sure someone else could.
I like to think that even if you could ask him, he has changed so much and so many times even he doesn't know who he originally was any-more!
Judge Doom is a riddle wrapped in an enigma
For all the reasons you mentioned, I never liked the Baron Von Rotten backstory. It's like the creators of that comic forgot that Doom was supposed to be a disguise. I also don't put any stock in the Pistol Packin' Possum fan theory; I very much doubt that Zemeckis or anybody else on the production was thinking that deeply about the poster. Besides not being yellow, Doom's apparent shapeshifting ability doesn't seem to fit with a character like that. It's fun to speculate about what he might have looked like under the mask, but I agree that leaving it a mystery is preferable to a definitive answer.
I think the yellow remains is just creative direction. I would say that it's just the Dip. Dip is yellow, and if you disolve a toon in it, you'd get a yellow puddle of dip with some.... bits... in it. I know his saw/hammer hand was yellow, but to make it stand out it, I guess yellow is pretty impactful. I wouldn't stretch to assume that means the character *has* to be yellow. Just my two cents.
Doom's oversized, pure white teeth will haunt me to my grave.
The White Teeth never bothered me since he was a old guy and when I was younger I thought them where just white false teeth.
it's clearly Jake the Dog from Adventure Time, 20 years before the Adventure Time pilot was made
Technically 63 years, since the movie takes place in 1947 haha
@@TwinePoodleWell Adventure Time takes place millions of years B.C. soooooooooo
@@HOTD108_ AD it's in the far future.
He yas 🟡 yellow skin 😁 😆 🫥 so many faces.
Jake's eyes are Black
I watched this as a kid and either there's a mandela effect or my family made up a very detailed headcanon for no reason. But I swear that it was explained somewhere in the movie that the villain was half-toon... Like a hybrid who's mother was a human and who's father was a toon. If I'm not misremembering then could it be possible that Pistol Packing Possum was his father. I could kinda see that being a thing in the movie's logic. Did I hear the half-toon thing on the Roger Rabbit ride in Disney maybe? There's alot of info dumping and lore on the decorations in line for the rides so maybe?
It was definitely not the movie…though I’ve heard that theory before.
@ Yeah your right. Its crazy. I literally watched it a couple hours ago just to see and ig I must’ve imagined that memory, cause its NOWHERE in it lol but the fact that I’ve heard it somewhere probably means it was either a theory or a cut concept maybe
You’re thinking of the movie Cool World and the original idea for that movie.
I always figured he was based on some obscure Max Fletcher character
Max HeadToon
I really enjoyed this theory! :D It was very informative and I had no idea that there was a comic to it. Makes me so nostalgic for the movie again! :3
I think it would be great if they released multiple other comics that had completely different origins for judge doom, to show that none of the origins are quite reliable, maybe parts of them really happened but we never know the whole story truthfully.
He's an adult Grimdark cartoon, like how Jessica is an adult pornographic cartoon
He was a chaos marine once. But when the warp transported his matter into a wacky colourful toon world he want even crazier.
Nah, it was already confirmed he was the hunter who killed Bambi's mother. He never had a face to begin with, just a piano, a gun, and the enjoyment of hunting toons.
Him dropping his piano just added a new animal to hunt, because as it turns out humans splatter too.
He doesn't truly exist, he's the form imagined by the audience hidden away from the lens of a camera, a monster.
Jessica is _not_ a pornographic cartoon character, she's an off-brand Tex Avery girl.
@@almessasorrow4950 Except Bambi would have been a movie in this universe, too. That doesn't hold up unless you're saying the deer that played the role of Bambi's Mother got the The Raven treatment.
@@shaynehughes6645 as a role he might have played, but Bambi only came out a couple years before RR took place. It's also possible that they didn't follow through because they didn't want the film to feel like it leaned too heavily in favor of one of the Big Two over the other.
Oddly enough the Plot to the movie is exactly what GMC did to San Fransisco.
I thought it happened in LA too.
This other channel I subscribe to was talking about this recently. Coincidentally he's also from Minnesota. I do agree that we don't need an explanation for everything though. I think the mystery surrounding Judge Doom will always be more interesting than actually knowing who he is.
Definitely curious to check out that other channel and see their video…I’m really into this topic haha. And I agree…the mystery in itself makes him such an interesting character.
I think sometimes we forget that the fun in a mystery movie is the mystery
It's honestly never occurred to me to speculate about who Judge Doom was, and I've been watching this movie since the mid 90s. To me it's not important, I just assumed he was a generic toon guy under the mask I guess. If he was a recognizable character, I'd be interested to know who he was, but I'm 99% sure he's just a generic toon who happens to be evil for reasons.
He also played possum! Like with the steam roller?
I have been waiting 30 years for this video :D didn't even know UA-cam was going to exist!
1:28 - that was a real thing that happened in several places including detroit and is why public transportation in america is so poor.
It's not really the full reason, but it's definitely a part of why our public transit is so trash.
The Pistol Packing Possum makes a lot of sense to me. It at least in some way points to why a humanoid Toon would empty weasels. While Opossums and Weasels are not related, they are both very similar "back yard pests." As for the yellow - I've always suspected that the puddle at the end of the movie had it's color appear more yellow because it is left over Dip. It even appears yellow in the shot of it leaving the nozel when Roger and Jessica are trying to avoid its stream. The yellow hand... while I can't explain that, I can aaaume that Toons might change color. We see it happen numerous times in the movie; Roger holding his breath, the hot sauce ...
Paul Reubens was the original voice of Roger Rabbit in 1983 cancelled version of Who Framed Roger Rabbit. 🐰🎥🎬🔍
I would have loved that version too 😂
Judge Doom is a interesting character, I think he might have been a extra character or minor character that did roles that wasn't the main characters. Sort of like a every man. Maybe the studio needed someone to play a cop, or ambulance actor, maybe a random robber, a studio director, detective, exterminator, a judge... Doom likely saw his career assuming he had one as a dead end or he got shafted from money or similar, and or maybe the method acting he had to do went to his head and suffered a mental breakdown and personality disorder.
There are hints that early toons were suffering. Betty Boop was a cocktail waitress in the film due to lack of work, for example, Jessica Rabbit was a pinup that found a successful husband and likely she was created for the late 30s or early 40s her roles done as toons resorted to more child friendly films after the war.
hmm. Its also possible Doom might have been a out of work actor that did cartoon work in the 30s and 40s leading up to the war.
Maybe Pistol Packin’ Possum was von Dooms attempt at changing his persona to the protagonist since he played so many villains. When the show didn’t make Maroon money, he fired Von Doom and that’s what made him try to destroy Toon Town. Like the jealous girlfriend/boyfriend, “if I can’t be a beloved character then no one can.” Disappointed I just found your channel though. Subbing now.
It's been a long time since I've seen Roger rabbit, and I've only realized I never knew the identity of judge doom till this video ended up in my recommended. Good work, you've left me with something to ponder about.
Great video, this was very interesting stuff. I always wondered who he was myself since a child, and the mystery continues as far as I'm concerned. Like you said, the fun is in the mystery! Like the old saying goes "It's the journey, not the destination". Great job on this, I've subscribed! 💕
There's a lot of compelling evidence for Pistol Packing Possum, but his eyes are most certainly not red like Doom's. The close-up at 3:09 clearly shows light brown eyes. Still a possibility though.
I've always interpreted the yellow pool around his remains to just be dip™️. But now that you mention it it's much more opaque and yellow. It could just be some continuity error, but I agree that it probably is his melted body. It could be tinted by dip, but the yellow hand suggests not. Depending on what pigments and mixes used, colors can change in drastic and surprising ways when dissolved
I didn't know I needed to think about this, but now I am. You monster. Thanks for the video, I always loved WFRR and any excuse to go back and watch it again is welcome! :)
I’m glad I could help! Haha, it’s a once a year watch for me…worth it every time!
Pattycake is the funniest adult joke to ever float over my head as a kid looking back 😂
But they really were playing Patty Cake.
@SimonKnight1023 yeah they were playing patty-cake alright 😏
@@harlowviv2968 I don't think Toontown Toons can screw, so it makes for an amazing joke even played straight
well it does make sense that doom's original form would be more human-like since it would make it far easier for him to disguise himself as a human. plus there are plenty of human-like toons.
Maybe he originates from one of those gags where the camera pulls back and you see a cartoonified version of the animator, drawing the cartoon. That's why he looks human, and since it's just a one-off gag, so he was abandoned after that without a job and turned to crime to survive. It would explain why he looks down on other toons, since he is a representation of a human who manipulates toons for his own profit and amusement.
I agree. As soon as you said there was a comic where he is resurrected, my heart sank. There doesn't need to be an answer.
I agree with you. Some things are best left unknown. That's like, did you ever see Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget? Not in the cartoon, no, but there was an action figure! And it's as disappointing as one might expect, maybe more so.
He’s the Possum - his henchmen are weasels.
I have never seen this movie nor any videos from this channel but man oh man, one heck of a video
👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
This is the kind of content we need 🙌🏼🙌🏼🙌🏼
That is so kind man, thank you so much!
Looking at cartoon characters that could fit the bill for Judge Doom, there is one that I found that is real interesting, but despite being old, might not be old enough for the setting. The very first version of PacMan. That version was an odd yellow dude with feet, no arms, and very red eyes. With the shapeshifting aspect of Doom's arms, it is reasonable that he might have the ability to retract them completely. It might even give him reason, if he was created to sell the games, only to be rejected immediately for a "better" version
Again, it is basically impossible, but very interesting
Thank you. I really enjoyed your video 💙
Thank you for taking time to watch it!
I think even knowing he's someone named baron von rotten doesn't take away too much of the mystery. After all, he is a toon known for playing different characters and after his accident changed him, who knows what the person he was like before. Maybe that's why he would stay in character so often, because he doesn't really know who he is anymore?
I think he was the other shoe and we witnessed him kill his partner. And when the dip got him we saw the other shoe drop.
I don’t believe the hand is shape shifting rather he’s using an acme product. I don’t consider the comic canon at all as it was written after and not by the movie writer so they never took their intentions properly. Also Baron vonRotten does not appear or get referenced in the movie and it’s bad writing to make it someone you never see or hear about during the mystery. The other thing is all the characters of real consequence are original characters, all the existing characters are cameos with not a huge affect on the plot so he’s not likely an existing character so Pistol Packin’ Pete is the only real choice (Baby Herman is in that final scene right?)
If it was just a prop, then Eddie's line about the paint left behind matching the paint from Acme's murder (which was used to frame Roger, given his color scheme) wouldn't make sense. It would just tie the paint back to the acme factory and not solve that case as the film was insinuating.
@ I’m going to a showing this afternoon I’ll watch out for that part. The rest of him also melted so there’s still his paint dna.
never really thought about that, tho, it would be simple to label him like Clayface or Hush, changing forms so much his true identity unknown yet his motives are usually bad, yet makes it interesting because it keeps the mystery alive
Judge Doom is Doc Brown.
Great Scott!
Man, Wendigoon really let himself go...
🤣 I’ve been wondering when this comment would pop up
@@TwinePoodle
I always thought since I was a kid that Judge Doom is a golden robot toon. It made the most sense to me since he was able to change his own body parts into weapons like a saw blade, boxing gloves, springs from the feet, even turning his eyes into daggers. It would also explain why he’s so heartless, soulless even, since robots have neither, and his plan has both logic put behind it, yet funnily enough can be ironically illogical, and it’s part of industrialization which is known for its metal works, something robots are known for as well. The fact that Doom is a soulless being similar to an automaton who is only interested in progress and doesn’t care who gets hurt in the process, even at his own cold hands is also great satire for both the story and the times it portrayed. I always imagined that under the mask he had a rectangular mouth with razor sharp teeth, a cylindrical head and round soul piercing eyes. Thinking about it still freaks me out to this day.
Puzzles like this always remind me of the old bit from Alice in Wonderland "How is a raven like a writing desk?". When the phrase was first written, it was designed to have no answer, just a bit of madness from the Hatter. But after years of people asking, the answer "Both are prone to a few good notes, and both are never [spelt 'nevar'] put backwards." was coined.
If cartoons are real in this universe it makes me wonder if realistic cartoons exist in it? I suppose there was not a lot of animation that wasn't explicitly geared toward comedy and humor, but I still wonder how, like, a Ralph Bakshi cartoon would fit into the lore.
Dude, this is amazing content! What a highly underrated channel definitely subscribing and I will be thoroughly watching the weird Al content.
Thank you so much!
I like that people are still thinking about this. I felt like that was maybe a weaker part of the film, where he's revealed to be a sort of human cartoon, disguised as it later suggests, and we're supposed to just go OK. It was more that the judge's identity was undermined more than a sort of Scooby Doo style mask-off moment to me. In noir/pulp fashion some mystery is left behind, threads unresolved, but it's a fairly satisfying wrap-up all the same since it gives Eddie some closure and gets rid of the main antagonist at the same time
I never thought the yellow was paint, I thought it was dip.
It's the Yellow Kid grown up. Hearst? My public school history was a long time ago.
The poster with the gun with the gun reflection is an amazing hidden bit.
being a cartoon villain, he is subject to the number one cartoon villain rule: Always give yourself away. "Yourself" in this instance shows up with him playing a character called Judge Doom. the 2 examples shown in the comic present him as the classic Disney "what the fuck, is it a dog or a rodent?" look, and so I am inclined to believe that is closer to his true form. granted they could have just said that in the comic, but that is absolutely no fun. thanks for this thought provoking video about one of my favorite movies!
Well the movie is called WHO Framed Roger Rabbit. We're not supposed to know who he really was
World Health Organization framed Roger Rabbit?!
Son of a bitch. All these years and it was staring us in the face...
I would look for any classic cartoon villain who can shapeshift their limbs & is humanoid. Even if your off & it gets more into fan theories, I think it would be more fun to link Judge Doom to an establish character rather then a character made up for the movie.
Oh my god i loved this film, and i wish they did a spin-off or a sequel to the film, it's such a shame it was so difficult to make, so we probably won't get another film quite like it.
One thing I like about the opossum option is that often those and weasels are confused for each other. (I mean, I don't think they look anything alike, but apparently, this *is* an issue.) This could explain why all his henchmen are weasels.
I think Doom has to be the scariest Disney villain.
Something I’ve been wondering for a while now is how characters in the WFRR universe would respond to the advent of toons who were intentionally drawn to be as unhinged and violent as possible; not just adult-oriented TV shows like Family Guy or South Park, but the edgy and crass online projects of the 2000’s with no networks to hold them back (Happy Tree Friends, Tank Men, Classic Eddsworld, Madness, pretty much anything made on Newgrounds for Pico Day, etc). What if it possibly caused social unrest among the older toons, afraid that one of these newer characters could become the next Judge Doom? It would make for an interesting parallel to the moral panic of the 90’s and 2000’s, where parent groups were convinced that violent shows, websites, and video games were turning their children into future criminals.
I would have preferred if Doom turned out to be a real (but obscure) cartoon character of the era, like that one Animaniacs episode where Buddy turned out to be the villain.
Hold the phone a bit... When Judge Doom's Eyes in his rubber mask turn into cartoon daggers, there's yellow paint on his inner eyes! There's also color to consider as well... Orange, like his hair, is used with red & yellow. So that would probably explain why he could use yellow paint, he could use yellow paint because part of him was made from it.
I like to think Judge Doom was more or less the toon version of John Capenter's the thing, minus the absorption ability. He might as well be if he can change his appearance.
Historical theory:
Judge Doom is real-life Harry Chandler.
The judge is portrayed as "yellow" or gold because he is a wealthy traitor to the historical communities of LA. Look at a picture of Harry Chandler's bug-eyed stare behind his glasses. The movie is an acidic criticism of Chandler as a joyless husk of a virtuous person, who gradually became a cartoon caricature of a human being.
Chandler was a business owner, investor and real-estate speculator who later married Harrison Gray Otis's daughter, thus securing a place for himself in LA society. Otis owned the LA times. After Otis's death, Chandler became publisher of the Times. Chandler also became a community leader, initially helping found the Pacific Electric streetcar system, as well as the Automobile Club of Southern CA.
Chandler supported eugenics through the "Human Betterment Foundation." He formed the Major Highways Committee (MHC) in Los Angeles to boost real estate development. He also used the newspaper to sway public opinion in favor of building the freeway system which demolished low-income and minority neighborhoods.
this honestly makes sense BTS given all the other real world references we get for context.
@@TheoRae8289 Yes, considering that the cartoon characters in the movie become creations that are more humane than real people, then ...
Using the film's internal logic, why couldn't a real-life human being make themselves into a grotesque imitation of a cartoon?
Just like the wicked witch of Oz, Judge Doom is a symbol of twisted human nature based upon real people.