Something something history of the Celts I cannot remember the name for the life of me I read it almost a decade ago But again it shows the migration of trade particularly mining Instead of language people claiming to be Irish Scottish Celtic finish whatever
No they didn't The West killed the eastern tradition You wonder how they got all the way over there Because the Greeks fell into debt bondage and flee to Rome then Rome fell into debt bondage and fleet Germany all the way to Francia and Britannia
I disagree with Survive the Jive, wealth and glory are not virtues, they are merely a common byproduct of the virtue of upholding honour. You can uphold your honour without becoming very known or amassing a great fortune, the latter things are only relevant in as so far as they help your family or your kin to survive, and to thrive.
Reject Yahwism, embrace true European tradition, religion and culture. I'm working on a plan for a practical revival, if anyone is interested in collaboration.
Europeans are the lost tribes of Israel who were the Scythians. The northern tribes were exiled after war with the Assyrians and the southern tribe of Judah remained.. Christ is ours too and Jesus was Aryan. It's going to be hard for you to understand this possibly but the term Aryan comes from Aries which is from Kaballa (Zodiac). The Aryan race is a Kabbalistic concept of which the Js use the same system. Obviously a lot of people with darker features populate the Middle East now but that was not always so.. Muhammed was Caucasian with red hair (that's why Muslims dye their beards red). Basically the religions were from Caucasians and over time they were infiltrated by heretical Js who subverted The Catholic Church and Islam. It's very complicated.
You aren't practising it though. You don't even actually believe in the gods. You don't offer them libations. You don't sacrifice to them and beg them for protection. You don't actually have anything in cpmmon with the actual masculine and heroic pagans of old.
I am Italian, born in Rome, Roman for generations. Ever since I realized that modern Europeans are all related genetically, linguistically and pantheonistically, I have been petrified. It's a great thing. No other large family like the Indo-European family exists in the world. It seems almost unreal and impossible that these people ever existed. In Italy, in my country, our elite of intellectuals and scientists is still very far from accepting all this, and they prefer to continue with the old 1950s American vernacular of mixed-race Italians. This is because, political fascism was born in Italy, and to tell the Italians of the twenty-first century today that they owe their glory not only to the Romans and the Greeks, but also to an ethnolinguistic family that changed the world even more than they done by the Romans themselves, for some, could be dangerous. So in the academic world we prefer not to talk about it. Yet, those most affected by this vulgate are the poor Sicilians, because their splendid region was conquered by the Arabs for two centuries. There are very recent PubMed studies, which are finally starting to disprove this. With the tracing of the autosomal genetic profile of some burials we began to understand something. It is true that Arabs and Christians coexisted in ancient urban metropolises, such as Palermo or Catania, but they lived in separate communities. In fact, for religious reasons, the burial rituals between Arabs and Christians were different, and so was the shape of the cities. They were made up of separate communities that lived distinctly and urbanistically separated from each other. However, it appears that they met mainly in markets, to socialize and to buy, sell and exchange high-quality goods. Mixed marriages did not seem to be that frequent at all, especially since Christian women on average gave themselves more to Arab men in marriage, compared to Christian men to Arab women. This is probably because there was already a gender difference that saw men as more faithful to their faith. It must also be said that in this study no trace of mixed DNA was found. The Arab conquest of Sicily has had less impact on history, but at this point also on genetics, than some scholars driven by woke political ideologies would have you believe.
Neil is right about the older chthonic Dionysus not being the 'party guy' - especially his military campaigns in India. The Dionysiaca poem by Nonnus is wild.
*Lev, these types of podcasts (religion, mythology, language, philosophy) are my favorite. Gnostic Informant, Jason Jorjani and the rest of that crew are my favorite guests. If it overlaps with a bit of politics that's great too! Keep up the amazing work.*
Lol. What gods? I am European, and I think that's literally retarded. We should be looking forward into a better future without such archaic, ignorant beliefs. There is a reason why they are in the past. It failed. We are educated people now. Hopefully evolved. People watch too many Netflix series. It's not how real life is.
Valhöl IS the cycle of death and rebirth. Battle is living, and Ragnorök is in mythic time: it is past, it is occurring now, and it will come. Today is your battle; fight it well.
Paganism is an ethnic slur used to perpetrate a genocide. Indo European religion is better term and then one can go into the specific regional cultures, Hellenism, Iranian, etc.
This specific podcast episode justifies the existence of UA-cam. So mind-blowing and good. I appreciate the editing as well. Well done. Long live the gods!
As an American who left Christianity, I am very curious about my ancestors' religion. I have traced some of my genealogy to Sweeden, Germany, England, and Ireland.
@@MrShbbz Christianity is a Semitic religion, Anglo saxons and almost all of Scandinavia and 80% of the rest of Europeans have nothing to do with Semitics and Phoenicians. Their religions come from the Proto-indo-european religion of yamanaya.
@@MrShbbzyhwh self states he is the god of the Jews. Did it ever occur to you that the very people in question would absolutely want you to believe they are chosen so you don’t question their monopoly on the systems of power?
And now you know why (abrahamic) monotheism became the victor in those territories with such high population densities due to being more urban. I'm not defending any of the arms of abrahamism but a focus on a unifying moral code and then a single agreed upon view on life and what awaits all in the afterlife surely was a beneficial tool for those in-power to employ in-order to settle differences amongst various of ethnic groups residing in an urban setting where the complexities of polytheistic-pantheons and ways of veneration/observance was too numerous to get a grasp on.
@@fosterbennington6405 That's only because of geographical closeness. The Hittites (and other anatolian peoples) syncretized HEAVILY with the indigenous Hattians and Hurrians of Anatolia, the same with the Mesopotamians and canaanites. The greeks syncretized with the Pelasgians and Canaanites, and the finns syncretized with germanics and baltics.
The gods you describe are lost to time. We don't actually know them, their stories weren't written down, their effigies were burned or buried, their name changed through a non existent verbal tradition, most traces are lost (if there even were any). And even if you have a good description, it was most likely written down by a Christian priest who thought it was worth to preserve. So you will believe in a Christian version of this god... If you want to or not. Not to mention that those gods are basically human in their behavior. They are greedy, violent, warmongering, lustful and they lie and deceiv. If you want to pray to a human, you might as well pray for yourself.
The Christian god was every bit as vengeful, jealous and violent. We are living in a post Christian era, the human soul is now searching for greater meaning, paganism is something that will be rediscovered, it will never die because it represents truth.
@cipherx6334 oh god can be wrathful, no question. But the pegan gods are human in their anger, they are human in their lies and in their actions. They are not all knowing and not all powerful. Why should I worship a god that is just as imperfect and limited as I am on earth? It's a worship of the self. Also we are not living in a post christian era. The number of Christians is growing everyday, especially in Africa and South America. Europa and the West are having a spiritual crisis. But it will not be solved by peganism. My forefathers forgot and buried their old gods and they died and bled for a new god. I will honor this decision.
As an American, I always feel like I'm larping when I try to embrace my ancestral history. I still feel a strong connection with the Northwestern European people and culture though. I'm not sure if that's because America is rooted in British law and culture. I imagine Canadians and Australians probably feel the same. I tracked my family to 1400s Normandy, on my father's side and 1600s South England on my mother's side. Ancient Briton is fascinating to me because it seems so mystical and mysterious because I guess we paid more attention to Romans in school. Some about Celts, but not the British Isles specifically, which is a shame. Just because we declared independence from Britain doesn't mean we should ignore where we came from.
10:20 another fascinating aspect to add to Lithuania.....their language. Of all things expected, it shares a very close vocabulary to Sanskrit, the ancient language of India. The resemblance is uncanny, you should check it out.
Mad respect to Tom and GI. May the Old Gods and Ancestors guide you all to your True Power. Verr Heil Ohk Seil Odin Alfather! Slava Rodu! Hvala Bogu! Jai Shri Ram, Har Har Mahadev! Regards fron your eastern cousin, Bawa Revant Singh. Veer Bhogya Vasundhara (Fortune Favours the Bold)
Unironically I think all people should return to their pre-abrahamic traditions in some capacity. If you look at all around the world where people still embrace the religions of their ancestors They treat their people that are of the same group as them with love and respect and they also treat outsiders with dignity without a need to force those outsiders to become like them or an expectation for them to be.
Why do Neopagans always use the meaningless buzzword Abrahamic religion or traditions rather than being specific and saying simply Christian? For thousands of years, Europeans embraced and adopted Christianity as their native religion. Everything you see as typical Western is based on Christianity, particularly Roman Catholicism. The point is, that Christianity was an integral part of European civilization during its formative years.
@@sammydasilva6152 Because were covering all the christian sects(Christian, catholic, eastern orthodox), Judaism, and islam under one "Buzzword" because their all the same.
@@CJS-zc3nx "Because were covering all the christian sects(Christian, catholic, eastern orthodox), Judaism, and islam under one "Buzzword" because their all the same." 😂Congra, you demonstrated that you are clueless and have no idea what you're talking about.
One of my favorite episodes yet. Thank you for having Tom on and for such an interesting discussion. Also I value the postproduction work with images and overlays in editing.
European paganism proved a failure in the ideological battle with Christianity. Present day dominant ideologies are far more strong than medieval Christianity. Secondly the cultural conditions which sustained paganism of Europe ( based on clan and tribe) is lost and hence very little chance of pagan revival.
Paganism didn't "fail" in a straightforward ideological battle with Christianity. The spread of Christianity in Europe was influenced by political power, coercion, and state sponsorship, particularly through the conversion of rulers who enforced Christianity upon their subjects (see Massacre of Verden or the Baltic Crusades). Paganism, being decentralized and lacking organized institutions, was less equipped to resist centralized power structures. Framing this as an "ideological failure" is such a dishonest take.
"based on clan and tribe" Still got my kind and and my family buddy.....It's not going away anyway soon. You probably have it too, just like everyone else. Seems like the natural way and will be that way as long there is humans. We did not come into this world created in a plastic bag full of tubes and fluid. Now......Consider yerself updated about the topic and carry on little maggot.😆
I have been a Celto Germanic heathen for over 10 years. Before that I was an atheist / agnostic. For me this path is the most spiritually nourishing. When I was younger I used to have these weird bouts of depression and I didn't even know where they came from. It was a sense of emptiness that came and went. Those stopped a long time ago. Ancestor worship has grounded me in such a way that I fell like a whole person.
Did you actually convince yourself that magic exists or are you consciously practicing "wishful thinking" or deliberately being a fantasist? Where's the proof that your religion is literally true?
@@johnnyjohn-johnson7738it’s purely personal and if interested there’s many traditions that to this day allow people to experience things akin to what they have spoke about for millennia. We also have a different sense as to what magic is. Blacksmiths poets mathematicians were all examples of magical work in the ancient world. It’s like that Arthur c Clarke quite any sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic. Us splitting and smashing atoms together is magical. And now’s there’s scientists that believe consciousness might be apart of our base reality and panpsychism is coming back around in philosophical talks. And if that’s the case could we talk to what’s out there to maybe affect our lives in some magical sense? 🤷♂️ fun to speculate about
@@johnnyjohn-johnson7738 You most likely cannot find a falsifiable proof for that, if you could it would be science. Is this therefore just a fantasy? Well, there are things you cannot prove in the same way and yet pretty much everyone, including many followers of scientism embrace as factual, for instance your consciousness, you cannot falsify it in any way, you cannot measure it, or observe it, and yet it is, and you see only effects of its existance, that is your idea of you as you.
@@johnnyjohn-johnson7738 Where's the proof that Christianity/Islam/Judaism is true? Do Abrahamics just convince themselves God is talking to them, or is it actually happening? The thing about faith is that it's completely based on trusting without evidence, belief without proof. All religions are the same in this regard.
Read the 10000 yrs old battle of ten kings of vedic period That explains relationship between Hinduism and European paganism How vedic culture extended from India to other
I’m just happy… very beyond happy, to see and know such a wildly informed depth of religious knowledge, like GI, interacts with the likes of survivethejive… Immediately upon beginning to watch gnosticinformant and mythvision, I had a suspicion that GI was… our guy… to a more or lesser degree… then the other day I heard him say “I was talking to Richd spncer” and while I’m not exactly wholly fond of RS, it confirmed my suspicion. And I dare submit thst mythvision too… if not already, is on the cusp of seeing the light as well. And yes, Guys, I do kinda prefer Aryan. If we could jump on the train of retaking that word, I’d be even more convinced of our glorious restoration.
The deserts? You do realize that much of the Levant is not simply desert? And do you also recognize that agriculture was invented in the Levant? Do you realize that Neolithic hunter-gatherer populations had long mixed with Levantine populations?
This is truly a great conversation and I have been wanting to hear a deep discussion on the different afterlife concepts within the Indo-European cosmologies and how they work together as well as relate to each other between the different branches and expressions. Including exploring the ideas of realizing a bigger picture as the civilizations that evolved from them advanced. I hope you can do more interviews and discussions like this and explore this topic even further. As someone who feels closest to early Mazda-Yasna, and appreciating its ethical emphasis, but within the context as the continuation of proto-Indo-European religion I also feel that many of these ideas are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I would also add that Ahura Mazda to me seems roughly similar to how Brahman is understood in the Hindu religions as source behind the gods(the other Ahuras/Aesir), though perhaps feeling more personal and sentient in the descriptions, and that the strange emphasis on monotheism in Zoroastrianism, that's often put in a way that's opposed to polytheism in and of itself, seems to me to be an arbitrary value judgement that came from the later religious influences on scholars and not the actual early Iranic worldview and texts at all. It never was a hard monotheism like in organized Christianity and Islam to the point where the other gods couldn't be acknowledged and appreciated. In fact they are supposed to be understood as all working together and this is in the Gathas which does refer to the other Ahuras. The dualism is just acknowledging not all higher and non-human beings are good forces for the benefit for man and creation. Something the other Indo-European religions understood. I like how Survive the Jive puts it where daeva was just the word that got used to refer to the god like beings who were not good or hostile akin to the Norse Jotunns, Hindu Rakshasas, and Irish Fomorians. You can see similar views in both Indo-European and other indigenous pagan/polytheistic religions and traditions such as among the Native American tribes .
Brahman is better understood as not a "Source" behind the gods, but as 'Void" which contains all agency/action/process in simultaneity. Dualistic forces which hold the potential for conflict in and through these agencies ("gods") are best understood as necessary forces of tension that generate change and creative dynamism.
You talk about ahura mazda i rather say he is not related to indo European culture but Mesopotamian , current depictions of ahura is same of ashur ( Assyrian head diety ) Asur and deva thing in Hinduism also said to have been related to west asia and India socio culture dissimilarity Those who call themselves asur descendants in India has higher percentage of haplogroup j ( west asian related ptdna) and tribal mtdna ( they are admixture of Indian hunters gather and west asian Neolithic much high of Indian hunters dna tho )
Even in hindu culture first disciples of sukracharya ( that turn odin in Norse culture) sukracharya in Vedic sankrit its called usana / kavi usan ( kavi as poet ) or ekaksha ( one eyed ) His first people are mentioned living in hotter land and west to Bharat-varsh ( that is divine land which was termology for Indian subcontinent)
@fosterbennington6405 I'm sorry, but japan? Unless you mean later Europeans and indians who came to trade with the Japanese as representatives for indo Europeans, but I don't think there were any of them who settled or directly influenced the Japanese.
@@magnificentname Not only does Buddhism count massively, but Greek Gods ending up in Japan through Buddhism (Herakles, Boreas) because of Greco-Buddhist art’s influence.
Paganism makes far more sense than any of the major religions do. Though Christianity is so riddled with Paganism that it would be fairly easy to turn it back completely.
That's where I'm skeptical on the reincarnation bit. So, let's say I reincarnate. I would have no memory of my past life and reincarnate as a descendant. What's the point? To maintain the family or "clan" as Tom says it? Why rob me of my past knowledge to hinder me from helping? How many souls of my family reincarnate?
@sponge5196 yeah reincarnation sounds like a scam. Is it possible it's to trick souls to continue the repetitive recycling and reproduction to put energy into this system?
As a Polish woman, I only recognize the deities of our ancestors before the Catholic/Christian times. A foreign religion has nothing to do with our culture and is so brazen that we learn about the history of our country that it was the gracious Roman Pope who allowed us to exist and create our country. Before that, apparently, in their opinion, we weren`t on our lands, we appeared out of thin air like the virginity of the mother of Christ. Never mind that the Amber and Silk "trails" passed through our lands BEFORE the "birth of Jesus" (if I remember correctly, about 2000 years... that's quite a long period of time...). Am I supposed to believe that Slavs weren`t interested in trade with other civilizations? We didn`t mine amber? We didn`t make weapons and jewelry from copper and didn`t trade it with anyone (in Gniezno, our first larger settlement - the capital... I was taught about it on a school trip, Slavs were able to smelt copper, they weren`t just ordinary hunters and gatherers)? And what did Roman writers talk about "us"... peoples existed in Europe before we were flooded by a foreign religion and, most importantly, they resisted. Even Poles fought among themselves to prevent the baptism of our country... unfortunately the rebels lost and our minds were enslaved. There is so much talk about Muslims as their religion is aggressive, but Catholicism/Christianity is no better. That is why I prefer Slavic paganism and I hope... that others will also return to these roots. Yes, we know little about them (thanks to the Crusades) but I prefer this then the hypocritical main religions of today's world.
The same elephant that had been present, and an avowed enemy to our kind since time immemorial. To even utter their name requires a podium, and a German accent. But that elephant isn’t laughing… It’s wringing its hands. Happy merchant meme style.
You know they have lived with us in every country from the very beginning. They are apart of us and they also didn't have the religion they do today. All of Abrahamic religions come from Zorastorianism. We can say they aren't white but they really are because they have been with us since Indo Iranian days. We are related 🤷♀️
@@MartaSpendowskaCześć, zasadniczo masz rację, polecam książkę Stanisława Staszica - jednego z fundatorów UW, niestety też księdza "Przestrogi dla Polski" na ten temat, wyjaśnia tam genezę problematycznego zachowania tych, o których mówić nie można.
I loved this video. Thanks to all three of you for this. You are each SO enthusiastic in this topic and its infectious. What resonated with me is not when you guys are trying to find fact and the truth about stuff and how it came to be, but, when Tom goes on about "you are what you are" and in that, how you should do yourself a favor and live with that truth of who you are.. It's sound advice. Each of these chaps, Jewish, Ukrainian, Scottish, American, english, scandi, whatever, they have in them, it is a part of them. And it is what it is so to deny that is foolish cos at the end of the day no one gives a shit who you are more than you.
@ I believe they have decided to hide every worthy myth and story that wouldn’t fit theirs: the 12 of this and that. Make people forget who the snaketaker is.
Isn't it strange. When I first learned of Zen in the UK 40 years ago, we were taught the Aryans migrated south ending in the Indus Valley bringing with them their Gods and cow worship. There was nothing controversial about that at the time, it was an accepted truth of early Buddhism.
If one longs to return to paganism, it would require dismantling the very essence of European identity-removing cathedrals, castles, art, classical music, and much of the continent's literary treasures. Take Tom Rowsell, for example; while he laments the liberal desire to dismantle Anglo-Saxon history, he ironically undercuts a significant portion of that very Anglo-Saxon Christian heritage. He has forfeited his claim to the legacies of Christian Anglo-Saxon kings and kingdoms or the British Empire for that matter, as they are intrinsically linked to Christian roots. In fact, the Christianity is intricately woven into the fabric of Europe, much like how tomatoes are now considered Italian or how potatoes have become national staples across Europe, despite their origins in the Americas. If you wish to reject Christianity, consider foregoing the Gregorian calendar and the Latin script, which itself is derived from Phoenician. Those who romanticize Neopaganism often lack a fundamental understanding of the true nature of ancient practices. Christianity did not eradicate European traditions and cultures; rather, it embraced and transformed them, further enriching the cultural tapestry. Moreover, Christianity is a universal faith, transcending specific peoples and places.
@@manfrombritain6816 You're missing the point. The abandonment of traditional Christian values and the decline of Christianity are eroding the very fabric of European society and its culture. Woke ideologies stand in opposition to Christianity.
Well, not exactly. Rather, more precisely the arts, sciences, and beautiful European traditional aesthetics are all rooted in the European *aristocracies* who all substantially invested in the creative vision of the Church. The pagan elites literally built Christian medieval civilization through the surplus of mobile wealth generated by the spiritual exemplum of the Church. In other words, big picture: Europe is not pagan or Christian. It's not an Either/Or. It was always a collaboration -- a cross-pollination of interests and influence. As an aside, archaeologists have found pendants with an Odinic Wolfhead merging organically out of the symbol of the Christian Cross. Both symbols integrated seamlessly on one piece of metal. I also wear it with honor and pride because it's a powerful and authentic portrayal of how our European ancestors perceived the conscious interplay of Christendom and the "barbarians." The best of the pagans of yore always yearned for an imperium!
If Europe is fundamentally Christian, and Christianity is fundamentally universal then Europe is fundamentally universal. Your comment exemplifies the crisis of the West in modernity and why progressive liberalism is just the ideological end phase of Christianity. This is a suicide pact for a culture not an affirmation.
Christianity only embraced and transformed traditional European practices as a fall back when they could not completely wipe them out. Christianity is facing a decline right now because it requires a suspension of disbelief that is hard to reconcile against modern scientific progress. Questions surrounding the historical accuracy of the Bible and especially the parables that belong far more as a mythology than they do an actual fact. Especially considering the inconsistencies of the nature of the God of the Old Testament vs the New Testament. Personally, I think Christians should just throw out the Old Testament altogether. Christianity can survive and thrive if they relinquish the dogmatic control and literal belief in the bible and focus more on the allegory and philosophy surrounding the religion and Jesus as an archetypal figure rather than a system of power and guilt based on him being tortured on your behalf.
It’s unwise to talk badly about Hinduism or dharma as a polytheist, unlike Europe they never let go of their culture so show some respect to your brothers. I’m not a hater I love this talk and both of you just put some respect on the Hindus.
The Buddha talks about having a karma higher than the gods ( see 1:00:27) because he didn’t think the gods were actually gods. He thought that they were just beings like you and me that were reborn into high heavenly realms because of the deep meditative karma they had developed in previous lives. And he thought they were mortal, and would be born again, most likely into lower realms like ours, or even into hell realms. So he used the Vedic terms Deva and Asura, but he completely rejected their status in Vedic religion as what we would think of as actual gods. One of several key points on which he broke from Vedic/Brahminical belief (and in this case at least, likely from broader Indo-European tradition). Personally, I’m not sure he even took the idea of the Devas and Asuras actually existing very seriously at all. He would tend to teach in ways that he thought would connect with whoever he was teaching. So when he was teaching Brahmins, he would frame his teachings in ways that would make sense to them based on their world view. He didn’t actually seem that bothered about other kinds of beings etc. His main thing was teaching how to practice so as to escape dissatisfaction and suffering, and as such move towards freedom/enlightenment.
@ yeah. I mean, there is a reasonable amount of cross over philosophically with the Brahminical tradition, but I think more with the Upanishads, which are a later (Iron Age) development. He made a very explicit point of rejecting the Vedas. So while we can say it’s an Indo-European tradition, it’s very definitely a break away faction. Some later schools of Buddhism did return to something that looks more like the Vedic/Brahmanical tradition, particularly the Vajrayana School, developed in Ancient India, but now most practiced among Tibetans. But the historical Buddha himself was making a fairly solid break.
@willmosse3684 - A 'god' is not so narrowly defined. Gods are on conceptual spectra. Lots of people, places and things can meet that qualification. The Buddha is one who is awake; the awakened. Gods are those of the living. The living are awake, not asleep like the dead. The honored dead could become 'god' based on his virtue (virtus, strength, potency, virility) in this life. He would be 'awake' in the heavens, as opposed to asleep in the hells. Many Roman emperors thus attained godhood after death, as an example.
It's very interesting that hardcore Christians, especially in America, are usually vehemently against drugs like cannabis yet cannabis has such a long and integral history within religion
1.17 they talk about Kurgan, which reminds me of the movie highlander. The Kurgan (which apparently means mound in old Russia) was from the same region where the Kurgan was from (for obvious reasons) but what's interesting is if you incorporate what they're talking about in reference to religion. It adds a cool extra aspect to the movie
To add, witch in Lithuanian is ragana, which etymologically hails from ragėti/regėti (to see). So "ragana" means a woman who "sees". Again mystical and manic visions.
On the topic of monism I would like to bring up the ambiguously mentioned unnamed greater god that arrives at the end of the Voluspa. This seems to contrast the trend of the supreme deity at the source of cosmology while emphasizing this entity as a kind of telos for the myths. This along with the ring draupnir would seem to suggest that the world is not so much a fixed or entrapping cycle but rather a progressive one in flux.
We are quite literally our ancestors - two cells from our parents, the water and blood in those cells, four cells from our Grandparents, eight cells from our Great Grandparents etc etc all the way back through the roots and branches of our own tree.
I am one person but my wife and my father know me differently because they are two different people, not because I am two different people. Likewise I don't think it's inappropriate to say that Odin and Shiva and Dionysus, etc are the same God. It's only an accident of history that the Indo-European people split and created separate languages and hence had separate words for the same Indo-European gods, or had different relationships with those gods based on changes in the cultures of the individual groups.
Yes, also, as you say there is only one truth. We all see it differently, but it doesn't change to fit our reasoning. So, when people look within to the truth, even when they're across the ocean, they'll come to similar conclusions. Because the answers are the same, even if we interpret them differently. The shamans of the Amazon share many of the same ideas as Indo-Europeans. As would aliens on another planet, in another epoch.
Informant's comment about the portable earth and Yahweh is very interesting and relevant to the hypothesis that he was originally a Volcano god rather than originally a storm god (the competing hypothesis, unless the two views should be reconciled through a syncretic model).
While I think this was a fascinating discussion, and those two gentlemen certainly know their history and philosophy, the answer to the question posed in the video title has to be a no for me. Don’t get me wrong, I want all of us sons of Europe to understand and appreciate as much of pagan culture and religion as possible. I even think integrating more pagan ideas into our culture (such as a focus on ancestry, appreciation of beauty and strength etc.) would do nothing but good at this time. It would certainly help in the battle against woke. However, I don’t buy many of the arguments against Christianity in this discussion. The issues with centralization, in my mind, have more to do with the development of the nation-state than with Christianity. The medieval world was largely decentralized while being simultaneously dominated by Christian thought. As to the inability of Christianity to fight back against rising wokeness/pop culture in the 80s and 90s (1:22:50), it seems to me that he’s ignoring the roughly thousand year period in which Europe produced Christian warriors, discoverers and artists of all types who conquered the world. I don’t see how that sort of Christianity could be easily conquered if reinstated. And his claim at 1:24:00 that Europe was never fully converted to Christianity is just sophistry. I’d love to see some sort of fusion of Christianity and paganism in the vein of Beowulf, Snorri, and more recently Tolkien. My ideal would be a system in which we understand our roots as Europeans, take seriously our ancestors pagan traditions and stories, while maintaining our Christian traditions (and reinstating some that have been lost). In true pagan spirit, I’m unwilling to forsake the religion that many of my ancestors held dear. We should find a way to honor all of our ancestors.
The type of Christianity the conquered the world for 1000 years you speak about is the same type of Christianity that killed pagans for believing differently than they did. Christian fundamentalists hate pagans. They can’t exist side by side.
The dagda, the Irish version the all father. Is almost an analogue to odin. There was a big viking (danish) influence in Ireland as seen by the majority of place names being of norse orgin.
Yes. I took it a step further on the PIE road and embraced Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism). I also still follow Christ's teachings, but from a Gnostic perspective. I see Him as a yogi and mystic, and not as a rabbi of YHWH the Blood God. Abrahamic religion is the ultimate psyop, in my view.
The problem with Gnosticism (which I find deeply interesting) is that the information we have is fragmentary and biased. This is why studying the Proto-Indo-European language and religion is so rewarding. It’s like finding your birth parents after being kidnapped at birth. Modern Hinduism has a lot of Dravidian influences. The most obvious example is that their trinity is Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma instead of Indra, Agni, and Varuna. It’s because the Puranas retconned the Vedas. King Arthur and Beowulf are more interesting to me than Christ. I had a manic episode where I felt like I was a Christlike figure sent by God. I couldn’t stop crying because I felt like I was going to have to experience a public and shameful execution to save the world. I don’t think the historical Jesus had peace in his final moments. He felt forsaken by God.
The historian Diogenes Laërtius tells us that Platon (from whence we get "Plato"), meaning "broad-shouldered," was the philosopher’s wrestling nickname. As a prominent aristocrat, Plato was known for his pedigree and youthful poetry but also for his physique: the muscles of a gifted grappler, who reportedly competed at the Isthmian Games.
@@josephpercy1558 I think people are mostly referring to his rejection of the gods, his ideas of the "Noble lie" and his paving the way for Monotheism/Christianity.
@@-RXB- I don't agree with people who think that Plato rejected the gods, that the "Noble Lie" is unjustified, nor that he "paved the way for monotheist Christianity." Most of the people who make these sorts of claims are incredibly naive and don't actually take the time to study his writings in any critical way. They're usually looking for scapegoats in ancient history to validate their faulty presuppositions. Plato was one in a long lineage of Heraclitean philosophy. His conception of the Gods owes more to ancient Egyptian metaphysics than anything else. Yes, the ancient Greeks were "Orientalizing" their polytheism, but this was nowhere close to anything that could be considered monotheistic!
16:27 "The Indo-Iranic people were just in Asia, after they left Brit- uh, Europe" SURVIVE THE JIVE DID IT AGAIN six months ago in Jive Talk he stated "The clever people were like nah, it's not an Asian homeland, it's a British homeland uh ah a European homeland" can the mad lad be stopped??
I thought Tom did an amazing job pushing back against globalized religious themes and defending the Germanic tradition. What was the most enjoyable for me was the last 15 minutes or so when they brought up what is better for young people a return to Christianity or a return to European paganism and Tom's response.. The look on our fellow whites face was priceless as Tom defends once again our he's Heritage for us Germans
@JackovdaBoro Christianity is a momentary affectation and a bad habit. We are all genetically hard-wired for our own ancestral consciousness. The gods live in our blood, not in somebody else's book.
1:28 I'm glad you brought that up. I thought the same. In my belief system, there is a feeling of rightness to intuition and great ideas, and I attribute this to the gods, or at least, the gods I think are good, because I can't imagine I could ever reject that voice. Jorjani would probably counter this by saying there are subconscious human drives that bring me to that conclusion but I argue there is something unique to that feeling of a right intuition, and individualization is the process of distinguishing that voice from ego disguised as self.
This comment section is what happens when someone says that Christianity is the foundation of Western civilization and then people believe it and say things like "Europe wouldn't exist without Christianity," totally ignoring the fact the Europa herself predates Christianity or that Brittania is a Godess, etc.. While it's true that European culture as we know it would be very different without the christian influence, the fact remains that, that christian influence is due to the downfall, the colonization, and the ultimate obliteration of any pre Roman influence of the European people at large. All the European kings have given the fielty to Rome at some point in the past and that is why European culture and Christianity have become so apparently inseparable. If I can't claim to be native to the land I live in and was born in, neither can it be claimed that Christianity is native to Europe as it was imported by those who sought to colonize the tribes of Europe and bring them under one religio-philosophical, political roof. It may be plausible to say that Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism were created by Rome through an unholy marriage between the philosophy of Athens and the religion of Judea, but it is intelectually dishonest to claim this religion to be native to Europe.
That is false, before a Roman or a Greek would feel more identified with an Egyptian than with a Germanic barbarian, Europe emerged with Christianity, Greek, Roman and Iberian paganism had profound oriental influences, Socrates is taken as a precursor of Christian ideas, because he rejected classical paganism.
@@gml4776 The feelings of a Roman or a Greek are irrelevant to the fact that christianity post-dates Europe. If christianity never existed, Europe would still exist. Christianity is not the cause of Europe
It is disappointing to me that there has not been the same energy put into the discovery and reconstruction of language family mythologies/language for the rest of the worlds language families as has been done for the Indo-Europeans. There are only so many on Earth, I understand the issues with lack of writing or incomplete archaeology but I think there could be a great amount more done than has to date been even attempted.
I feel like it backfired because whenever a Finn is in distress or in a fight he swears "Perkele", basically invoking a god of war for strength unintentionally
'It becomes something immortal' .. yes And this surely connects all the way back to the concept of manna (aboriginal/polynesian etc) Im only saying this is older(more ancestral for us all) than even we think😊 Awesome content 👏😍
Jive seems to be under the illusion that the thing being reincarnated is 'you' or that it is a meaningful continuation of your human ego. Ditto for the thing that could achieve nirvana or moksha. Surely not all believed in reincarnation, and Ragnarok wasn't this universal belief. The recollection of past lives and birth marks has had ample alternate explanations offered by spiritists, like Carl Wickland. It's not the 'kid's past lives,' but some attached or obsessing spirit, and people confuse the spirit's memories and desires for their own, and there is a psychic transference of wounds and such like.
You are under the illusion that you are anything other than you. That means there is no soul as distinct from the body - they are both you, and the spirit that inhabits you and descendants is you too. There is no other you. Eastern philosophy distorts the pagan religion which does not distinguish between an ego (I) and a self (also I) because both mean I!
@Survivethejive I presumed you held to some bog-standard reincarnation that sought eventual mystical union or realization of some non-dual truth. Nevertheless, yours is a world apart from immortality of the individual human as presented in at the very least Abrahamic religions and certain spiritualist views (e.g. Swedenborg). There are also other views that affirm reincarnation and immortality. I don't see your point. The wind's stolen from your sails. I am not the spirit that inhabits my ancestors, I am a much more complex being with its own agendas, desires, self-made memories, and nature. The person that reincarnates is not me, as if waking up from where I left off, but some new human who starts from the fetus up. So your worldview is just not very interesting; I'm being expected to plant trees whose shade I will not enjoy. Whether or not all pagan cultures univocally believed in a similar form of reincarnation is beyond me, probably being your specialty. Perhaps the Rig Veda didn't allude to reincarnation, the desire being to join the ancestors, a useless task if they were already incarnated into dogs, pigs, plants, hairs on Krishna's chest, etc.
@TheEternalClown I believe that not all European pagans at the time believed in reincarnation. It depended from region to region. There is also the fact that we don't know too much, and there wasn't a dogma for European pagans.
All three Abrahamic faith systems have roots in Zoroastrianism from the 2nd millennium BCE of the Sasanian empire their trinity is good thoughts good words and good deeds their spiritual leader was the Magus we derive the words Maggi, Maggid, Magician and Magik from the title.
Yeah because they brought Magism into the Levant and it became Gnosticism, hence why some of the first Christians had the title of “Magus”. There is also a lot of iconographic evidence showing Gnosticism is just Magism in a new Jewish cultural context. But you can also see Magian doctrine within Judaism too. It’s roots are combination of Mithraism and Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrian priests are even called Atharvans which can be traced back to the Vedas, specifically the Atharva Veda, which even more coincidentally is the book in the Vedas of magical incantations. You can see the Magi spread way beyond the Levant though if you read the Greek Magical Papyri.
@@cwpv2477 the Old Testament is Jewish not Christian and it was written in the mid 300’s bc which is long after Zoroastrianism came about and Mithraism is older than Zoroastrianism. So how is my math wrong? As far as the Magian influence on Judaism we already know this to be true due to when Persia was ruling the entire region we know that Magi were in Babylon intermingling with the Chaldeans and likely Jews too. We also know that Magi were traveling to Judea as the New Testament even portrays them visiting baby Jesus; why? Because the New Testament writers are hinting at the origins of their religion WHICH IS MAGIAN MITHRAISM
The Arian Christian Church symbol the yinglin a combination of the swastika and the Star of Remphan /David, originally from Persia they settled in Ukraine, the Baltic States Poland and Germany.
Insults just show yourself to be ignorant it's gudan derived from the proto Indo European ghuto-m . You see the pic of the Ethiopian bible and assume in error I'm from there, all you do is make an ass of u not me.
I'm always fascinated about all the different areas swastikas show up in. Shame how in the West you're just not allowed to use any form of swastika now
They are spot on about Dionysus. Though really it is not Dʰéǵʰōm as in Gaia. But the Sovereignty Goddess associated with the snake. She is also linked to the underworld like Žemyna is. It is just that standard PIE associated the Sky God thunder-god with the Earth Mother. Which is not correct. As the Sky Father (Ouranos or Caelus of the day sky), is the husband of Dʰéǵʰōm, not the thunder-god, whose wife is the Sovereignty Goddess. Like Odin and Freyja, or The Morrígan and The Dagda. The Sovereignty Goddess too is about the fertility of the earth and plants. Though not the earth itself. It is the same distinction the Romans had between Ceres and the Earth Mother. Ceres herself within Roman mythology is also not the Roman earth goddess, as this was Terra Mater (Mother Earth) instead. Ceres was however linked to her at some point, but only due to her connection to crops and fertility. Ceres is also an earth mother, but not Mother Earth like Gaia, or thus Dʰéǵʰōm. Regarding Odin and Apollo. Yeah they are both linked to the wolf too, and wolf warriors, not just ravens. Apollo is the wolf-god of the wolf-light (dusk and dawn). The wolf is at the same time synonymous with light in his cult, in which he bears forth the light. The wolf thus is associated with the very kindling of light, and a hazardous time, the new beginnings and also the last hours. At other times Apollo sends a wolf as his envoy for which a massive wolf was erected before his temple at Delphi. As a wolf, Apollo for instance destroys the Telchines of Rhodes by which he is called Telchinios, associating the wolf with violent winds and storms that can be just as damaging on crops as wolves are to livestock. This connection to storms is also echoed in the ancient Koryos connection to the thunder-god. Wolves are the children of Apollo. Finally the poet Lycopron, said two wolves were the hounds of Apollo and represented his two prophets. Where Apollo was also invoked as follows; "And you, Apollo, lord of the Wolf, be a wolf to the enemy force and give them groan for groan!"
As per Apollo, this is where I can't agree with the Nietzscheans who only seem to imagine Apollo as a kind of awesome radiating light being in opposition to this dark, chthonic Dionysius. As you have already explicated above, Apollo's origins relating to the wolf could also be dark, chthonic and barbarous.
@josephpercy1558 There you are correct. It also means that the Nietzschean idea of the Apollonian versus Dionysian falls apart. Same with the strict separation of Order from Chaos. As Apollo as wolf God was a deity of both creation and destruction. With it the potential of renewal. Hence why he was called a Soteira. Apollo also was the father of the Korybantes who protected and nurtured Dionysus. The Korybantes being one version of the Koryos also tied to Rhea. As same with Juno and the wolf warriors of Mars there is such a connection. Juno's name meaning rejuvenation. Where the Fianna (Irish Koryos) where dedicated to the Morrigan. The Vedic Sanjna also is tied to the Ashvins, and is the mother of Yama (*Yemo which is Dionysus), Manu and Yami (Artemis). Being connected to the serpent who steals the cattle that *Trito in PIE myth defeats. It was said in the Vedic texts that Yama and Yami where connected. This same you can see with Bendis (Artemis) and her connection to the Maenads and Dionysus. Where the Maruts (Vedic Koryos) with Indra defeats the serpent. Zeus similarly is tied to the Korybantes and the Ephebe. As much as Apollo is. The Koryos in that sense under wolf Apollo of the twilight are the ones who unite Order and Chaos into one. A force of renewal, that holds the power of creation and destruction. As much as Odin does too. Though with this the modern rigid distinction of Order excluding Chaos is just a modern delusion. Our pagan ancestors knew how to harness it for renewal. Something we lack. Which is why we are stuck with the Progressive's versus Conservatives. The pagan answer was the rite of passage and heroes journey, internally within the person. Hence the mystery schools like the Eleusinian mysteries. They were all individuation rites. Much like the Orphic and Bacchic mysteries in their original form where too. Before it devolved into an excuse for orgies.
I find it so interesting that paganism in Britain reflects the historical migrations, as it is a combination of the Neolithic farmer traditions (worshipping in stone circles and being aligned with the solar wheel) and the Indo-European Dyēus/Zeus/sky, and the World Tree Religion/concept of he underworld and hell. How interesting.
Being as Odin Sigfather bestows victory then how might a Heathen go about understanding the state of the last 1500 years given his authority? Could there be specific lessons he would have learn from this ordeal he had the folk go through? And if so shouldn’t this line of inquiry and/or augury be one of us heathens’ primary concern?
@ Not for explicit Heathenry, that’s the point I’m making. There’s no guarantee of his beneficence and yet there are reasons for his decisions. What I’m alluding to is that his involvement is complex and so any approach made toward him should be as well.
Augury is an interpretation of omens. Also, what "ordeal" are you talking about? It wasn't like it was with the jews who lived under the domination of other nations. The folk converted to christianity. Btw, what you are saying sounds a lot like something that hebrews would say of their god. Down to how his involvement is "complex"
@Knauss-k6r My UPG inbound - Prehap Odin took a step back because he saw how much Christianity would unite our people, which would lead to great technological innovations, take over the world with empires, become stronger, richer, etc... Now that Christianity has run its course, it's dying off with the old God's surely raising again.
@@ThatchyThrone maybe it's time for the almighty Surt to blast this world asunder? Surtr is actually a very gnostic figure when you think about it. He is anathema to this corrupted world and his world of Múspelheimr is primordial. Older than creation and, according to Snorri, older than even Niflheimr. Surprised GI didn't pick up on that. He's also associated with fire.
Theoretically Christianity is a religion based on the human sacrifice of Jesus, even having mock rituals called the Eucharist (drinking of blood and flesh of the sacrificial man, Jesus) While it's great to note, the pagan Romans and Greeks outlawed human sacrifice in the Empire.
@@margaretyoung991But that is not meant to glorify or condone human sacrifice. In fact it shows the moral decline of the Jews and how they did many things against Mosiac law, which forbids human sacrifice and child sacrifice.
www.patreon.com/breaktherules Watch the exclusive Jason Jorjani Q&A show - one of many to come when you support the show through becoming a Patron!
Follow the iron ingot migration instead of the ethnicities and languages
Something something history of the Celts
I cannot remember the name for the life of me
I read it almost a decade ago
But again it shows the migration of trade particularly mining
Instead of language people claiming to be Irish Scottish Celtic finish whatever
No they didn't
The West killed the eastern tradition
You wonder how they got all the way over there
Because the Greeks fell into debt bondage and flee to Rome then Rome fell into debt bondage and fleet Germany all the way to Francia and Britannia
Debt forgiveness is the key
The first line should always be debtor
creditor
Continue to be lost in your mystery schools in linguistics
I disagree with Survive the Jive, wealth and glory are not virtues, they are merely a common byproduct of the virtue of upholding honour. You can uphold your honour without becoming very known or amassing a great fortune, the latter things are only relevant in as so far as they help your family or your kin to survive, and to thrive.
Reject Yahwism, embrace true European tradition, religion and culture.
I'm working on a plan for a practical revival, if anyone is interested in collaboration.
Yeah maybe some more LARPing would help.
I'm interested. I believe art is the key to the revival of our people.
That's not what I have in mind. @@Baloo555
We are all building local groups
Im down.
To all trad Christians there is nothing more trad than practicing your native European faith
Without Christianity Europe would of never conquered the world and we would be all Muslims now.
@@JackovdaBoro like what is happening right now? With the pope openly admitting defeat to the mooslime hoard?
Europeans are the lost tribes of Israel who were the Scythians. The northern tribes were exiled after war with the Assyrians and the southern tribe of Judah remained.. Christ is ours too and Jesus was Aryan. It's going to be hard for you to understand this possibly but the term Aryan comes from Aries which is from Kaballa (Zodiac). The Aryan race is a Kabbalistic concept of which the Js use the same system. Obviously a lot of people with darker features populate the Middle East now but that was not always so.. Muhammed was Caucasian with red hair (that's why Muslims dye their beards red). Basically the religions were from Caucasians and over time they were infiltrated by heretical Js who subverted The Catholic Church and Islam. It's very complicated.
You aren't practising it though. You don't even actually believe in the gods. You don't offer them libations. You don't sacrifice to them and beg them for protection. You don't actually have anything in cpmmon with the actual masculine and heroic pagans of old.
@@OlafLand "lost tribes of israel" lmao even the deviation from orthodoxy is semite centred
I am Italian, born in Rome, Roman for generations. Ever since I realized that modern Europeans are all related genetically, linguistically and pantheonistically, I have been petrified. It's a great thing. No other large family like the Indo-European family exists in the world. It seems almost unreal and impossible that these people ever existed. In Italy, in my country, our elite of intellectuals and scientists is still very far from accepting all this, and they prefer to continue with the old 1950s American vernacular of mixed-race Italians. This is because, political fascism was born in Italy, and to tell the Italians of the twenty-first century today that they owe their glory not only to the Romans and the Greeks, but also to an ethnolinguistic family that changed the world even more than they done by the Romans themselves, for some, could be dangerous.
So in the academic world we prefer not to talk about it. Yet, those most affected by this vulgate are the poor Sicilians, because their splendid region was conquered by the Arabs for two centuries. There are very recent PubMed studies, which are finally starting to disprove this.
With the tracing of the autosomal genetic profile of some burials we began to understand something. It is true that Arabs and Christians coexisted in ancient urban metropolises, such as Palermo or Catania, but they lived in separate communities. In fact, for religious reasons, the burial rituals between Arabs and Christians were different, and so was the shape of the cities. They were made up of separate communities that lived distinctly and urbanistically separated from each other.
However, it appears that they met mainly in markets, to socialize and to buy, sell and exchange high-quality goods. Mixed marriages did not seem to be that frequent at all, especially since Christian women on average gave themselves more to Arab men in marriage, compared to Christian men to Arab women. This is probably because there was already a gender difference that saw men as more faithful to their faith. It must also be said that in this study no trace of mixed DNA was found. The Arab conquest of Sicily has had less impact on history, but at this point also on genetics, than some scholars driven by woke political ideologies would have you believe.
😂😂😂😂😂
Neil is right about the older chthonic Dionysus not being the 'party guy' - especially his military campaigns in India. The Dionysiaca poem by Nonnus is wild.
The misappropriation of Dionysus in the modern world is nauseating.
And what happened to those campaigns?
*Lev, these types of podcasts (religion, mythology, language, philosophy) are my favorite. Gnostic Informant, Jason Jorjani and the rest of that crew are my favorite guests. If it overlaps with a bit of politics that's great too! Keep up the amazing work.*
its all so bad. no theological scientists, no priests, just stupid ppl tryna trick u in a capitalistic view of "product choice" concerning religions
These two guests combined are a powerhouse. Hope to see more GI/STJ collabs.
BORN AGAIN PAGAN RIGHT HERE HAIL THE GODS OF EUROPE
Lol. What gods? I am European, and I think that's literally retarded. We should be looking forward into a better future without such archaic, ignorant beliefs. There is a reason why they are in the past. It failed. We are educated people now. Hopefully evolved. People watch too many Netflix series. It's not how real life is.
Welcome Home
gods don't exist, religion = waste of time
@@Tina_K Thank you
Do you watch red ice?😊
Valhöl IS the cycle of death and rebirth. Battle is living, and Ragnorök is in mythic time: it is past, it is occurring now, and it will come. Today is your battle; fight it well.
I don't think that the norse ever played Runequest
Paganism is an ethnic slur used to perpetrate a genocide. Indo European religion is better term and then one can go into the specific regional cultures, Hellenism, Iranian, etc.
I agree. And it was only used as a contrast to the Judeo-Christian cult.
Because Iran is famously part of fucking Europe.
@@erisdiscordia5429you have really a struggle to read properly
Indo-European is a made up term. They called themselves Aryans. So you want Aryan magic
Pagan = country dweller
This specific podcast episode justifies the existence of UA-cam. So mind-blowing and good. I appreciate the editing as well. Well done. Long live the gods!
As an American who left Christianity, I am very curious about my ancestors' religion. I have traced some of my genealogy to Sweeden, Germany, England, and Ireland.
its Christianity.
@@MrShbbz Christianity is a Semitic religion, Anglo saxons and almost all of Scandinavia and 80% of the rest of Europeans have nothing to do with Semitics and Phoenicians. Their religions come from the Proto-indo-european religion of yamanaya.
@@MrShbbz wrong
@@MrShbbz He said Sweeden, Germany, England, and Ireland.
Not a mention of Jews.
Be it actual or mental.
@@MrShbbzyhwh self states he is the god of the Jews. Did it ever occur to you that the very people in question would absolutely want you to believe they are chosen so you don’t question their monopoly on the systems of power?
Hilarious how Lev mentions to Thomas specifically that he’s half Jewish in hopes of preventing him from saying anything too based.
Great crossover Lev
Excellent episode! Ave Jupiter 🏛️ ⚡️
Vitalism Tribe unite!
The internet is smaller than you'd think. Good to see you here brother.
Hail Perun ❤
AVE IVPPITER MAXIMVS! 🦅⚡️
He says people should stick to their ancestral traditions but wherever you look in the ancient world there was syncretism.
People breed with other people, what's so hard to understand?
And now you know why (abrahamic) monotheism became the victor in those territories with such high population densities due to being more urban. I'm not defending any of the arms of abrahamism but a focus on a unifying moral code and then a single agreed upon view on life and what awaits all in the afterlife surely was a beneficial tool for those in-power to employ in-order to settle differences amongst various of ethnic groups residing in an urban setting where the complexities of polytheistic-pantheons and ways of veneration/observance was too numerous to get a grasp on.
Syncretism largely between cultures that were already related to eachother, mind you
@@fosterbennington6405 Exact
@@fosterbennington6405 That's only because of geographical closeness. The Hittites (and other anatolian peoples) syncretized HEAVILY with the indigenous Hattians and Hurrians of Anatolia, the same with the Mesopotamians and canaanites. The greeks syncretized with the Pelasgians and Canaanites, and the finns syncretized with germanics and baltics.
Feeling there could be a part 2 perhaps. Brilliant discussion gentlemen.
В дымке призрачных лесов, песни капищ древних.
Боги наших пра-отцов
до поры там дремлют…
This is so fascinating. It's 5am and I'm completely hooked in. Thank you!!
The gods you describe are lost to time. We don't actually know them, their stories weren't written down, their effigies were burned or buried, their name changed through a non existent verbal tradition, most traces are lost (if there even were any). And even if you have a good description, it was most likely written down by a Christian priest who thought it was worth to preserve. So you will believe in a Christian version of this god... If you want to or not.
Not to mention that those gods are basically human in their behavior. They are greedy, violent, warmongering, lustful and they lie and deceiv. If you want to pray to a human, you might as well pray for yourself.
The Christian god was every bit as vengeful, jealous and violent. We are living in a post Christian era, the human soul is now searching for greater meaning, paganism is something that will be rediscovered, it will never die because it represents truth.
@cipherx6334 oh god can be wrathful, no question. But the pegan gods are human in their anger, they are human in their lies and in their actions. They are not all knowing and not all powerful. Why should I worship a god that is just as imperfect and limited as I am on earth? It's a worship of the self. Also we are not living in a post christian era. The number of Christians is growing everyday, especially in Africa and South America. Europa and the West are having a spiritual crisis. But it will not be solved by peganism. My forefathers forgot and buried their old gods and they died and bled for a new god. I will honor this decision.
Speak for yourself. We DO know them.
Look! The retard doesn't understand metaphysics!
Says a lot that STJ called himself a heathen before he knew anything about it. Its an aesthetic affectation with post-hoc justification.
As an American, I always feel like I'm larping when I try to embrace my ancestral history. I still feel a strong connection with the Northwestern European people and culture though. I'm not sure if that's because America is rooted in British law and culture. I imagine Canadians and Australians probably feel the same. I tracked my family to 1400s Normandy, on my father's side and 1600s South England on my mother's side. Ancient Briton is fascinating to me because it seems so mystical and mysterious because I guess we paid more attention to Romans in school. Some about Celts, but not the British Isles specifically, which is a shame. Just because we declared independence from Britain doesn't mean we should ignore where we came from.
What a crossover! I follow both guys for years now. Coolness beyond measure 🖤
As a germanic heathen, I love jive content highly recommend people to check out his channel if you're interested heathenry and paganism
Thanks!
And “red ice” he goes on that channel a lot
Norse Magic and Beliefs is a good channels as well.
Yes...the answer is yes they should. There lol
Thanks. Saved a bunch of time.
@Vuntermonkey lol
Hindus and Buddhists are in full support of the global return to ancient religions ❤
No. That’s lame and effeminate
@baze703 To denounce the divine feminine is to be half atheist.
23:15 In Hindu mythology,
Asuras and Devas are half brothers.
Same father, mothers are two sisters, same grandfather.
In Iranian mythology Deva were bad guys.
What a brilliant discussion. Thanks guys.
10:20 another fascinating aspect to add to Lithuania.....their language. Of all things expected, it shares a very close vocabulary to Sanskrit, the ancient language of India. The resemblance is uncanny, you should check it out.
My paternal grandmother was from Lithuania. I was adopted from Poland. I don't doubt that she grew up speaking Lithuanian.
Mad respect to Tom and GI.
May the Old Gods and Ancestors guide you all to your True Power.
Verr Heil Ohk Seil Odin Alfather!
Slava Rodu!
Hvala Bogu!
Jai Shri Ram,
Har Har Mahadev!
Regards fron your eastern cousin,
Bawa Revant Singh.
Veer Bhogya Vasundhara
(Fortune Favours the Bold)
Unironically I think all people should return to their pre-abrahamic traditions in some capacity.
If you look at all around the world where people still embrace the religions of their ancestors They treat their people that are of the same group as them with love and respect and they also treat outsiders with dignity without a need to force those outsiders to become like them or an expectation for them to be.
Why do Neopagans always use the meaningless buzzword Abrahamic religion or traditions rather than being specific and saying simply Christian? For thousands of years, Europeans embraced and adopted Christianity as their native religion. Everything you see as typical Western is based on Christianity, particularly Roman Catholicism. The point is, that Christianity was an integral part of European civilization during its formative years.
@@sammydasilva6152 Because were covering all the christian sects(Christian, catholic, eastern orthodox), Judaism, and islam under one "Buzzword" because their all the same.
@@CJS-zc3nx "Because were covering all the christian sects(Christian, catholic, eastern orthodox), Judaism, and islam under one "Buzzword" because their all the same."
😂Congra, you demonstrated that you are clueless and have no idea what you're talking about.
@LuciKnew The fact that Christianity, particularly Roman Catholicism, contributed to Europe's splendor - you call destroying. Interesting.
@@sammydasilva6152cus Christian’s ain’t the only Abrahamic faith genius 😂🤯
One of my favorite episodes yet. Thank you for having Tom on and for such an interesting discussion. Also I value the postproduction work with images and overlays in editing.
The Oak is also associated to Thor. 🌳⚡️
Thunor:)
In celtic religion is associated to Taranos
European paganism proved a failure in the ideological battle with Christianity. Present day dominant ideologies are far more strong than medieval Christianity. Secondly the cultural conditions which sustained paganism of Europe ( based on clan and tribe) is lost and hence very little chance of pagan revival.
That tends to happen when the ideological battle is won by the most blood spilled and you destroy all the cultural history of the people you colonize.
Paganism didn't "fail" in a straightforward ideological battle with Christianity. The spread of Christianity in Europe was influenced by political power, coercion, and state sponsorship, particularly through the conversion of rulers who enforced Christianity upon their subjects (see Massacre of Verden or the Baltic Crusades). Paganism, being decentralized and lacking organized institutions, was less equipped to resist centralized power structures. Framing this as an "ideological failure" is such a dishonest take.
Except they didn't, they never could refute paganism...
"based on clan and tribe" Still got my kind and and my family buddy.....It's not going away anyway soon. You probably have it too, just like everyone else. Seems like the natural way and will be that way as long there is humans. We did not come into this world created in a plastic bag full of tubes and fluid.
Now......Consider yerself updated about the topic and carry on little maggot.😆
Only 20k views but 750 comments. The movement is small but the passion is strong.
I have been a Celto Germanic heathen for over 10 years. Before that I was an atheist / agnostic. For me this path is the most spiritually nourishing. When I was younger I used to have these weird bouts of depression and I didn't even know where they came from. It was a sense of emptiness that came and went. Those stopped a long time ago. Ancestor worship has grounded me in such a way that I fell like a whole person.
Did you actually convince yourself that magic exists or are you consciously practicing "wishful thinking" or deliberately being a fantasist? Where's the proof that your religion is literally true?
@@johnnyjohn-johnson7738it’s purely personal and if interested there’s many traditions that to this day allow people to experience things akin to what they have spoke about for millennia.
We also have a different sense as to what magic is.
Blacksmiths poets mathematicians were all examples of magical work in the ancient world.
It’s like that Arthur c Clarke quite any sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguishable from magic.
Us splitting and smashing atoms together is magical.
And now’s there’s scientists that believe consciousness might be apart of our base reality and panpsychism is coming back around in philosophical talks.
And if that’s the case could we talk to what’s out there to maybe affect our lives in some magical sense? 🤷♂️ fun to speculate about
@@johnnyjohn-johnson7738 You most likely cannot find a falsifiable proof for that, if you could it would be science. Is this therefore just a fantasy? Well, there are things you cannot prove in the same way and yet pretty much everyone, including many followers of scientism embrace as factual, for instance your consciousness, you cannot falsify it in any way, you cannot measure it, or observe it, and yet it is, and you see only effects of its existance, that is your idea of you as you.
Heathen? Why not just say pagan?
@@johnnyjohn-johnson7738 Where's the proof that Christianity/Islam/Judaism is true? Do Abrahamics just convince themselves God is talking to them, or is it actually happening? The thing about faith is that it's completely based on trusting without evidence, belief without proof. All religions are the same in this regard.
Read the 10000 yrs old battle of ten kings of vedic period
That explains relationship between Hinduism and European paganism
How vedic culture extended from India to other
Paganism never left. It was merely having an afternoon nap.
I’m just happy… very beyond happy, to see and know such a wildly informed depth of religious knowledge, like GI, interacts with the likes of survivethejive…
Immediately upon beginning to watch gnosticinformant and mythvision, I had a suspicion that GI was… our guy… to a more or lesser degree… then the other day I heard him say “I was talking to Richd spncer” and while I’m not exactly wholly fond of RS, it confirmed my suspicion.
And I dare submit thst mythvision too… if not already, is on the cusp of seeing the light as well.
And yes,
Guys,
I do kinda prefer Aryan. If we could jump on the train of retaking that word, I’d be even more convinced of our glorious restoration.
Yes, most definitely. Fantastic trio of knowledge!! Thank you
Very informative, very thought provoking, thoroughly absorbing.
The introduction of monotheism was a bad move. The abrahamic religions belong in the deserts of their origin.
The deserts? You do realize that much of the Levant is not simply desert? And do you also recognize that agriculture was invented in the Levant? Do you realize that Neolithic hunter-gatherer populations had long mixed with Levantine populations?
make me a sandwich bitch
@@josephpercy1558 agriculture was not invented at one single place in time.
Why was it a bad move?
@@thethingsthathappenamongusno but that region was one of the main progenitors of it in the old world and the west
Yes Europeans must return to Paganism
Hail Zalmoxis! Your discussion was really well documented and complex, really loved it
This is truly a great conversation and I have been wanting to hear a deep discussion on the different afterlife concepts within the Indo-European cosmologies and how they work together as well as relate to each other between the different branches and expressions. Including exploring the ideas of realizing a bigger picture as the civilizations that evolved from them advanced. I hope you can do more interviews and discussions like this and explore this topic even further. As someone who feels closest to early Mazda-Yasna, and appreciating its ethical emphasis, but within the context as the continuation of proto-Indo-European religion I also feel that many of these ideas are not necessarily mutually exclusive. I would also add that Ahura Mazda to me seems roughly similar to how Brahman is understood in the Hindu religions as source behind the gods(the other Ahuras/Aesir), though perhaps feeling more personal and sentient in the descriptions, and that the strange emphasis on monotheism in Zoroastrianism, that's often put in a way that's opposed to polytheism in and of itself, seems to me to be an arbitrary value judgement that came from the later religious influences on scholars and not the actual early Iranic worldview and texts at all. It never was a hard monotheism like in organized Christianity and Islam to the point where the other gods couldn't be acknowledged and appreciated. In fact they are supposed to be understood as all working together and this is in the Gathas which does refer to the other Ahuras. The dualism is just acknowledging not all higher and non-human beings are good forces for the benefit for man and creation. Something the other Indo-European religions understood. I like how Survive the Jive puts it where daeva was just the word that got used to refer to the god like beings who were not good or hostile akin to the Norse Jotunns, Hindu Rakshasas, and Irish Fomorians. You can see similar views in both Indo-European and other indigenous pagan/polytheistic religions and traditions such as among the Native American tribes .
Brahman is better understood as not a "Source" behind the gods, but as 'Void" which contains all agency/action/process in simultaneity. Dualistic forces which hold the potential for conflict in and through these agencies ("gods") are best understood as necessary forces of tension that generate change and creative dynamism.
You talk about ahura mazda i rather say he is not related to indo European culture but Mesopotamian , current depictions of ahura is same of ashur ( Assyrian head diety )
Asur and deva thing in Hinduism also said to have been related to west asia and India socio culture dissimilarity
Those who call themselves asur descendants in India has higher percentage of haplogroup j ( west asian related ptdna) and tribal mtdna ( they are admixture of Indian hunters gather and west asian Neolithic much high of Indian hunters dna tho )
Even in hindu culture first disciples of sukracharya ( that turn odin in Norse culture) sukracharya in Vedic sankrit its called usana / kavi usan ( kavi as poet ) or ekaksha ( one eyed )
His first people are mentioned living in hotter land and west to Bharat-varsh ( that is divine land which was termology for Indian subcontinent)
Whole asur/ aesir in Indo Europeans culture is Mesopotamian of origin
This was an excellent episode. Great guest. Thank you so very much 🍀!
From England all the way to Japan, echoes of them have spread, it’s very impressive when you really sit down and track it down.
Echoes of what exactly?
@@magnificentname Indo-European Tradition
@fosterbennington6405 I'm sorry, but japan? Unless you mean later Europeans and indians who came to trade with the Japanese as representatives for indo Europeans, but I don't think there were any of them who settled or directly influenced the Japanese.
@@magnificentname Not only does Buddhism count massively, but Greek Gods ending up in Japan through Buddhism (Herakles, Boreas) because of Greco-Buddhist art’s influence.
sorry ancient egypt has more impact on earth
Thank you for hosting this talk. 🙏 Conversations like this are what is best about youtube.
Paganism makes far more sense than any of the major religions do. Though Christianity is so riddled with Paganism that it would be fairly easy to turn it back completely.
I really like Tom, hes super well read both on theology and history / archeology. Can definitely feel his passion
This pagans logic has no hold. I know plenty of people of "fame and renoun" who's children are catastrophic failures.
That's where I'm skeptical on the reincarnation bit. So, let's say I reincarnate. I would have no memory of my past life and reincarnate as a descendant. What's the point? To maintain the family or "clan" as Tom says it? Why rob me of my past knowledge to hinder me from helping? How many souls of my family reincarnate?
@sponge5196 yeah reincarnation sounds like a scam. Is it possible it's to trick souls to continue the repetitive recycling and reproduction to put energy into this system?
@The_neon_nomad Maybe.... I don't know. I think I prefer an actual afterlife and not constant reincarnation.
@sponge5196 I agree, unless it's into the same life but living out different choices
As a Polish woman, I only recognize the deities of our ancestors before the Catholic/Christian times.
A foreign religion has nothing to do with our culture and is so brazen that we learn about the history of our country that it was the gracious Roman Pope who allowed us to exist and create our country. Before that, apparently, in their opinion, we weren`t on our lands, we appeared out of thin air like the virginity of the mother of Christ. Never mind that the Amber and Silk "trails" passed through our lands BEFORE the "birth of Jesus" (if I remember correctly, about 2000 years... that's quite a long period of time...). Am I supposed to believe that Slavs weren`t interested in trade with other civilizations? We didn`t mine amber? We didn`t make weapons and jewelry from copper and didn`t trade it with anyone (in Gniezno, our first larger settlement - the capital... I was taught about it on a school trip, Slavs were able to smelt copper, they weren`t just ordinary hunters and gatherers)? And what did Roman writers talk about "us"... peoples existed in Europe before we were flooded by a foreign religion and, most importantly, they resisted. Even Poles fought among themselves to prevent the baptism of our country... unfortunately the rebels lost and our minds were enslaved.
There is so much talk about Muslims as their religion is aggressive, but Catholicism/Christianity is no better.
That is why I prefer Slavic paganism and I hope... that others will also return to these roots. Yes, we know little about them (thanks to the Crusades) but I prefer this then the hypocritical main religions of today's world.
Now, the elephant stopping us from talking about *Indo-European still sits in the room-and he’s laughing. And who is that elephant? 😉
The same elephant that had been present, and an avowed enemy to our kind since time immemorial.
To even utter their name requires a podium, and a German accent.
But that elephant isn’t laughing…
It’s wringing its hands.
Happy merchant meme style.
You know they have lived with us in every country from the very beginning. They are apart of us and they also didn't have the religion they do today. All of Abrahamic religions come from Zorastorianism. We can say they aren't white but they really are because they have been with us since Indo Iranian days. We are related 🤷♀️
@@Willowtree82 they never lived WITH us. Speaking as a Polish person. They have never EVER assimilated.
@@MartaSpendowskaCześć, zasadniczo masz rację, polecam książkę Stanisława Staszica - jednego z fundatorów UW, niestety też księdza "Przestrogi dla Polski" na ten temat, wyjaśnia tam genezę problematycznego zachowania tych, o których mówić nie można.
@@sosna1443 Dzieki wielkie! Ksiazke bede szukac :)
I highly appreciate your Heathen scholarship kinsmen! What an excellent overview! Fantastic! )))))))))
I loved this video. Thanks to all three of you for this. You are each SO enthusiastic in this topic and its infectious.
What resonated with me is not when you guys are trying to find fact and the truth about stuff and how it came to be, but, when Tom goes on about "you are what you are" and in that, how you should do yourself a favor and live with that truth of who you are.. It's sound advice. Each of these chaps, Jewish, Ukrainian, Scottish, American, english, scandi, whatever, they have in them, it is a part of them. And it is what it is so to deny that is foolish cos at the end of the day no one gives a shit who you are more than you.
Yes Europeans should embrace heathenry/Asatru
Not just asatru
@ All indo European (Aryans)
There were originally 13 months and 13 houses of the Zodiac Ophiuchus the serpent bearer. Nothing is as we are told
And who’s fault it is that we have the silly 12 constellations? Ptolemy around 160 CE. Wonder why and if it has anything to do with the Bible….
@@MartaSpendowska I am uninformed but I am assuming from your tone that Christians are why it's 12 constellations?
@MartaSpendowska I'd imagine it has everything to do with the Bible and the gregorian calendar
@ there is a lot of *12 in the Hebrew Bible. Mythos is born. A heavenly story now fits too.
@ I believe they have decided to hide every worthy myth and story that wouldn’t fit theirs: the 12 of this and that. Make people forget who the snaketaker is.
I'm a simple man I see STJ I like the video
Hail Wodin
I"m a simple man, I see STJ and I downvote and report the video for advocating white supremacism.
Isn't it strange. When I first learned of Zen in the UK 40 years ago, we were taught the Aryans migrated south ending in the Indus Valley bringing with them their Gods and cow worship. There was nothing controversial about that at the time, it was an accepted truth of early Buddhism.
If one longs to return to paganism, it would require dismantling the very essence of European identity-removing cathedrals, castles, art, classical music, and much of the continent's literary treasures. Take Tom Rowsell, for example; while he laments the liberal desire to dismantle Anglo-Saxon history, he ironically undercuts a significant portion of that very Anglo-Saxon Christian heritage. He has forfeited his claim to the legacies of Christian Anglo-Saxon kings and kingdoms or the British Empire for that matter, as they are intrinsically linked to Christian roots.
In fact, the Christianity is intricately woven into the fabric of Europe, much like how tomatoes are now considered Italian or how potatoes have become national staples across Europe, despite their origins in the Americas. If you wish to reject Christianity, consider foregoing the Gregorian calendar and the Latin script, which itself is derived from Phoenician.
Those who romanticize Neopaganism often lack a fundamental understanding of the true nature of ancient practices. Christianity did not eradicate European traditions and cultures; rather, it embraced and transformed them, further enriching the cultural tapestry. Moreover, Christianity is a universal faith, transcending specific peoples and places.
yeah exactly, it's globalist and is fucking us. woke is the modern atheist expression of Christian ideas
@@manfrombritain6816 You're missing the point. The abandonment of traditional Christian values and the decline of Christianity are eroding the very fabric of European society and its culture. Woke ideologies stand in opposition to Christianity.
Well, not exactly. Rather, more precisely the arts, sciences, and beautiful European traditional aesthetics are all rooted in the European *aristocracies* who all substantially invested in the creative vision of the Church. The pagan elites literally built Christian medieval civilization through the surplus of mobile wealth generated by the spiritual exemplum of the Church. In other words, big picture: Europe is not pagan or Christian. It's not an Either/Or. It was always a collaboration -- a cross-pollination of interests and influence.
As an aside, archaeologists have found pendants with an Odinic Wolfhead merging organically out of the symbol of the Christian Cross. Both symbols integrated seamlessly on one piece of metal. I also wear it with honor and pride because it's a powerful and authentic portrayal of how our European ancestors perceived the conscious interplay of Christendom and the "barbarians."
The best of the pagans of yore always yearned for an imperium!
If Europe is fundamentally Christian, and Christianity is fundamentally universal then Europe is fundamentally universal. Your comment exemplifies the crisis of the West in modernity and why progressive liberalism is just the ideological end phase of Christianity. This is a suicide pact for a culture not an affirmation.
Christianity only embraced and transformed traditional European practices as a fall back when they could not completely wipe them out. Christianity is facing a decline right now because it requires a suspension of disbelief that is hard to reconcile against modern scientific progress. Questions surrounding the historical accuracy of the Bible and especially the parables that belong far more as a mythology than they do an actual fact. Especially considering the inconsistencies of the nature of the God of the Old Testament vs the New Testament. Personally, I think Christians should just throw out the Old Testament altogether.
Christianity can survive and thrive if they relinquish the dogmatic control and literal belief in the bible and focus more on the allegory and philosophy surrounding the religion and Jesus as an archetypal figure rather than a system of power and guilt based on him being tortured on your behalf.
Born Again Pagan- I have been released from the gods of the desert … Hail the Great North, Hail Odin!
Maybe pagan sacrifice and slavery rituals are what attract you 😯
Excellent!
@ Subscribed!⚔️✊💥
@@cavaleirosemlicenca3894What...the indigenous European religions are not the Aztecs buddy
Retard.
It’s unwise to talk badly about Hinduism or dharma as a polytheist, unlike Europe they never let go of their culture so show some respect to your brothers. I’m not a hater I love this talk and both of you just put some respect on the Hindus.
calling hindus' polytheist is not disrespect.
Well said!
i agree!!
"Saar we are traditional in india saar, we burn wives saar"
Shut it jeet
Agree
Great episode. Covered a lot of interesting stuff and didn't get bogged down on a single point.
The Buddha talks about having a karma higher than the gods ( see 1:00:27) because he didn’t think the gods were actually gods. He thought that they were just beings like you and me that were reborn into high heavenly realms because of the deep meditative karma they had developed in previous lives. And he thought they were mortal, and would be born again, most likely into lower realms like ours, or even into hell realms. So he used the Vedic terms Deva and Asura, but he completely rejected their status in Vedic religion as what we would think of as actual gods. One of several key points on which he broke from Vedic/Brahminical belief (and in this case at least, likely from broader Indo-European tradition). Personally, I’m not sure he even took the idea of the Devas and Asuras actually existing very seriously at all. He would tend to teach in ways that he thought would connect with whoever he was teaching. So when he was teaching Brahmins, he would frame his teachings in ways that would make sense to them based on their world view. He didn’t actually seem that bothered about other kinds of beings etc. His main thing was teaching how to practice so as to escape dissatisfaction and suffering, and as such move towards freedom/enlightenment.
highly divergent!
@ yeah. I mean, there is a reasonable amount of cross over philosophically with the Brahminical tradition, but I think more with the Upanishads, which are a later (Iron Age) development. He made a very explicit point of rejecting the Vedas. So while we can say it’s an Indo-European tradition, it’s very definitely a break away faction. Some later schools of Buddhism did return to something that looks more like the Vedic/Brahmanical tradition, particularly the Vajrayana School, developed in Ancient India, but now most practiced among Tibetans. But the historical Buddha himself was making a fairly solid break.
@willmosse3684 - A 'god' is not so narrowly defined. Gods are on conceptual spectra. Lots of people, places and things can meet that qualification. The Buddha is one who is awake; the awakened. Gods are those of the living. The living are awake, not asleep like the dead. The honored dead could become 'god' based on his virtue (virtus, strength, potency, virility) in this life. He would be 'awake' in the heavens, as opposed to asleep in the hells. Many Roman emperors thus attained godhood after death, as an example.
Agreed,he wanted to focus on the Noble 8 Fold Path and not get distracted by the Supernatural.
I see Tom, I click
A temple in Tel Arad Israel had burnt cannabis resin on the left hand Altar at the entrance to the Holy of Holies.
It's very interesting that hardcore Christians, especially in America, are usually vehemently against drugs like cannabis yet cannabis has such a long and integral history within religion
So what? Cannabis was commonly smoked all throughout the old roman empire same with opium
1.17 they talk about Kurgan, which reminds me of the movie highlander. The Kurgan (which apparently means mound in old Russia) was from the same region where the Kurgan was from (for obvious reasons) but what's interesting is if you incorporate what they're talking about in reference to religion.
It adds a cool extra aspect to the movie
To add, witch in Lithuanian is ragana, which etymologically hails from ragėti/regėti (to see). So "ragana" means a woman who "sees". Again mystical and manic visions.
@@liveforever141 a seeress, like the Norse volva
On the topic of monism I would like to bring up the ambiguously mentioned unnamed greater god that arrives at the end of the Voluspa. This seems to contrast the trend of the supreme deity at the source of cosmology while emphasizing this entity as a kind of telos for the myths. This along with the ring draupnir would seem to suggest that the world is not so much a fixed or entrapping cycle but rather a progressive one in flux.
Shockingly dense discussion. So many Red Pills in 90 mins. Each chapter could be a 3 hour discussion in of itself
We are quite literally our ancestors - two cells from our parents, the water and blood in those cells, four cells from our Grandparents, eight cells from our Great Grandparents etc etc all the way back through the roots and branches of our own tree.
I am one person but my wife and my father know me differently because they are two different people, not because I am two different people. Likewise I don't think it's inappropriate to say that Odin and Shiva and Dionysus, etc are the same God. It's only an accident of history that the Indo-European people split and created separate languages and hence had separate words for the same Indo-European gods, or had different relationships with those gods based on changes in the cultures of the individual groups.
Yes, also, as you say there is only one truth. We all see it differently, but it doesn't change to fit our reasoning.
So, when people look within to the truth, even when they're across the ocean, they'll come to similar conclusions. Because the answers are the same, even if we interpret them differently.
The shamans of the Amazon share many of the same ideas as Indo-Europeans. As would aliens on another planet, in another epoch.
Informant's comment about the portable earth and Yahweh is very interesting and relevant to the hypothesis that he was originally a Volcano god rather than originally a storm god (the competing hypothesis, unless the two views should be reconciled through a syncretic model).
While I think this was a fascinating discussion, and those two gentlemen certainly know their history and philosophy, the answer to the question posed in the video title has to be a no for me. Don’t get me wrong, I want all of us sons of Europe to understand and appreciate as much of pagan culture and religion as possible. I even think integrating more pagan ideas into our culture (such as a focus on ancestry, appreciation of beauty and strength etc.) would do nothing but good at this time. It would certainly help in the battle against woke.
However, I don’t buy many of the arguments against Christianity in this discussion. The issues with centralization, in my mind, have more to do with the development of the nation-state than with Christianity. The medieval world was largely decentralized while being simultaneously dominated by Christian thought.
As to the inability of Christianity to fight back against rising wokeness/pop culture in the 80s and 90s (1:22:50), it seems to me that he’s ignoring the roughly thousand year period in which Europe produced Christian warriors, discoverers and artists of all types who conquered the world. I don’t see how that sort of Christianity could be easily conquered if reinstated. And his claim at 1:24:00 that Europe was never fully converted to Christianity is just sophistry.
I’d love to see some sort of fusion of Christianity and paganism in the vein of Beowulf, Snorri, and more recently Tolkien. My ideal would be a system in which we understand our roots as Europeans, take seriously our ancestors pagan traditions and stories, while maintaining our Christian traditions (and reinstating some that have been lost). In true pagan spirit, I’m unwilling to forsake the religion that many of my ancestors held dear. We should find a way to honor all of our ancestors.
The type of Christianity the conquered the world for 1000 years you speak about is the same type of Christianity that killed pagans for believing differently than they did. Christian fundamentalists hate pagans. They can’t exist side by side.
The dagda, the Irish version the all father. Is almost an analogue to odin. There was a big viking (danish) influence in Ireland as seen by the majority of place names being of norse orgin.
Yes. I took it a step further on the PIE road and embraced Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism). I also still follow Christ's teachings, but from a Gnostic perspective. I see Him as a yogi and mystic, and not as a rabbi of YHWH the Blood God. Abrahamic religion is the ultimate psyop, in my view.
The problem with Gnosticism (which I find deeply interesting) is that the information we have is fragmentary and biased. This is why studying the Proto-Indo-European language and religion is so rewarding. It’s like finding your birth parents after being kidnapped at birth. Modern Hinduism has a lot of Dravidian influences. The most obvious example is that their trinity is Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma instead of Indra, Agni, and Varuna. It’s because the Puranas retconned the Vedas. King Arthur and Beowulf are more interesting to me than Christ. I had a manic episode where I felt like I was a Christlike figure sent by God. I couldn’t stop crying because I felt like I was going to have to experience a public and shameful execution to save the world. I don’t think the historical Jesus had peace in his final moments. He felt forsaken by God.
25:48 Neil's robot is straight killin it
Plato was a beta, Homer was Chad.
Yeah I have to agree; but he'd still be able to tie most modern men into a knot.
@@CaptainPieBeard haha facts
The historian Diogenes Laërtius tells us that Platon (from whence we get "Plato"), meaning "broad-shouldered," was the philosopher’s wrestling nickname. As a prominent aristocrat, Plato was known for his pedigree and youthful poetry but also for his physique: the muscles of a gifted grappler, who reportedly competed at the Isthmian Games.
@@josephpercy1558 I think people are mostly referring to his rejection of the gods, his ideas of the "Noble lie" and his paving the way for Monotheism/Christianity.
@@-RXB- I don't agree with people who think that Plato rejected the gods, that the "Noble Lie" is unjustified, nor that he "paved the way for monotheist Christianity." Most of the people who make these sorts of claims are incredibly naive and don't actually take the time to study his writings in any critical way. They're usually looking for scapegoats in ancient history to validate their faulty presuppositions.
Plato was one in a long lineage of Heraclitean philosophy. His conception of the Gods owes more to ancient Egyptian metaphysics than anything else. Yes, the ancient Greeks were "Orientalizing" their polytheism, but this was nowhere close to anything that could be considered monotheistic!
16:27 "The Indo-Iranic people were just in Asia, after they left Brit- uh, Europe" SURVIVE THE JIVE DID IT AGAIN six months ago in Jive Talk he stated "The clever people were like nah, it's not an Asian homeland, it's a British homeland uh ah a European homeland" can the mad lad be stopped??
I thought Tom did an amazing job pushing back against globalized religious themes and defending the Germanic tradition. What was the most enjoyable for me was the last 15 minutes or so when they brought up what is better for young people a return to Christianity or a return to European paganism and Tom's response.. The look on our fellow whites face was priceless as Tom defends once again our he's Heritage for us Germans
Bravo to Tom. The best I've seen him. Pushed back on the wet blanket from The Host.
What a well hosted, interesting, and congenial discussion. First time I've come across this channel, I'm impressed. 👍
Yes. Yes we should. We venerate our ancestors because we are descended from gods.
Your Ancestors were Christian
Your ancestors also never washed there skin
@JackovdaBoro Christianity is a momentary affectation and a bad habit. We are all genetically hard-wired for our own ancestral consciousness. The gods live in our blood, not in somebody else's book.
@@choaticblack Apparently you got this information from a hollywood movie.
@@paulalynnhay your Gods are fake though, you dont actually believe in them. Jesus Christ is the truth, I believe in my God know the difference.
1:28 I'm glad you brought that up. I thought the same. In my belief system, there is a feeling of rightness to intuition and great ideas, and I attribute this to the gods, or at least, the gods I think are good, because I can't imagine I could ever reject that voice. Jorjani would probably counter this by saying there are subconscious human drives that bring me to that conclusion but I argue there is something unique to that feeling of a right intuition, and individualization is the process of distinguishing that voice from ego disguised as self.
This comment section is what happens when someone says that Christianity is the foundation of Western civilization and then people believe it and say things like "Europe wouldn't exist without Christianity," totally ignoring the fact the Europa herself predates Christianity or that Brittania is a Godess, etc..
While it's true that European culture as we know it would be very different without the christian influence, the fact remains that, that christian influence is due to the downfall, the colonization, and the ultimate obliteration of any pre Roman influence of the European people at large.
All the European kings have given the fielty to Rome at some point in the past and that is why European culture and Christianity have become so apparently inseparable.
If I can't claim to be native to the land I live in and was born in, neither can it be claimed that Christianity is native to Europe as it was imported by those who sought to colonize the tribes of Europe and bring them under one religio-philosophical, political roof.
It may be plausible to say that Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism were created by Rome through an unholy marriage between the philosophy of Athens and the religion of Judea, but it is intelectually dishonest to claim this religion to be native to Europe.
That is false, before a Roman or a Greek would feel more identified with an Egyptian than with a Germanic barbarian, Europe emerged with Christianity, Greek, Roman and Iberian paganism had profound oriental influences, Socrates is taken as a precursor of Christian ideas, because he rejected classical paganism.
@@gml4776 The feelings of a Roman or a Greek are irrelevant to the fact that christianity post-dates Europe. If christianity never existed, Europe would still exist. Christianity is not the cause of Europe
It is disappointing to me that there has not been the same energy put into the discovery and reconstruction of language family mythologies/language for the rest of the worlds language families as has been done for the Indo-Europeans. There are only so many on Earth, I understand the issues with lack of writing or incomplete archaeology but I think there could be a great amount more done than has to date been even attempted.
Holy shhzzz 2 legends!!!
Yes We should, English and Gothic descended American here
9:26 ancient Finnish people venerated a sky god named Perkele as well. The church changed the meaning of the name now lol
I feel like it backfired because whenever a Finn is in distress or in a fight he swears "Perkele", basically invoking a god of war for strength unintentionally
My Lithuanian ancestors called him Perkunas.
@@zekun4741 God of war is Iku-Turso not Ukko who is the sky god. Also it's not confirmed that perkele was a word for Ukko it's just a theory.
'It becomes something immortal' .. yes And this surely connects all the way back to the concept of manna (aboriginal/polynesian etc) Im only saying this is older(more ancestral for us all) than even we think😊
Awesome content 👏😍
Jive seems to be under the illusion that the thing being reincarnated is 'you' or that it is a meaningful continuation of your human ego. Ditto for the thing that could achieve nirvana or moksha. Surely not all believed in reincarnation, and Ragnarok wasn't this universal belief. The recollection of past lives and birth marks has had ample alternate explanations offered by spiritists, like Carl Wickland. It's not the 'kid's past lives,' but some attached or obsessing spirit, and people confuse the spirit's memories and desires for their own, and there is a psychic transference of wounds and such like.
You are under the illusion that you are anything other than you. That means there is no soul as distinct from the body - they are both you, and the spirit that inhabits you and descendants is you too. There is no other you. Eastern philosophy distorts the pagan religion which does not distinguish between an ego (I) and a self (also I) because both mean I!
@Survivethejive I presumed you held to some bog-standard reincarnation that sought eventual mystical union or realization of some non-dual truth.
Nevertheless, yours is a world apart from immortality of the individual human as presented in at the very least Abrahamic religions and certain spiritualist views (e.g. Swedenborg). There are also other views that affirm reincarnation and immortality.
I don't see your point. The wind's stolen from your sails. I am not the spirit that inhabits my ancestors, I am a much more complex being with its own agendas, desires, self-made memories, and nature. The person that reincarnates is not me, as if waking up from where I left off, but some new human who starts from the fetus up. So your worldview is just not very interesting; I'm being expected to plant trees whose shade I will not enjoy.
Whether or not all pagan cultures univocally believed in a similar form of reincarnation is beyond me, probably being your specialty. Perhaps the Rig Veda didn't allude to reincarnation, the desire being to join the ancestors, a useless task if they were already incarnated into dogs, pigs, plants, hairs on Krishna's chest, etc.
@TheEternalClown I believe that not all European pagans at the time believed in reincarnation. It depended from region to region. There is also the fact that we don't know too much, and there wasn't a dogma for European pagans.
Very, Very cool video. I will watch this a couple of times.
All three Abrahamic faith systems have roots in Zoroastrianism from the 2nd millennium BCE of the Sasanian empire their trinity is good thoughts good words and good deeds their spiritual leader was the Magus we derive the words Maggi, Maggid, Magician and Magik from the title.
Yeah because they brought Magism into the Levant and it became Gnosticism, hence why some of the first Christians had the title of “Magus”. There is also a lot of iconographic evidence showing Gnosticism is just Magism in a new Jewish cultural context. But you can also see Magian doctrine within Judaism too. It’s roots are combination of Mithraism and Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrian priests are even called Atharvans which can be traced back to the Vedas, specifically the Atharva Veda, which even more coincidentally is the book in the Vedas of magical incantations. You can see the Magi spread way beyond the Levant though if you read the Greek Magical Papyri.
@@RyanTucker-r5dwas this before after zoroastrianism was influenced by christianity when they tried to compete
@ 😂😂😂 more like Christianity was completely and utterly influenced by Zoroastrianism you’ve clearly got your timeline f’d up
@@RyanTucker-r5d ur math is very very bad. OT was written when?
@@cwpv2477 the Old Testament is Jewish not Christian and it was written in the mid 300’s bc which is long after Zoroastrianism came about and Mithraism is older than Zoroastrianism. So how is my math wrong? As far as the Magian influence on Judaism we already know this to be true due to when Persia was ruling the entire region we know that Magi were in Babylon intermingling with the Chaldeans and likely Jews too. We also know that Magi were traveling to Judea as the New Testament even portrays them visiting baby Jesus; why? Because the New Testament writers are hinting at the origins of their religion WHICH IS MAGIAN MITHRAISM
Nice. Be awesome if this became a regular hang w you 3. Good stuff. Taking notes.
The Arian Christian Church symbol the yinglin a combination of the swastika and the Star of Remphan /David, originally from Persia they settled in Ukraine, the Baltic States Poland and Germany.
Insults just show yourself to be ignorant it's gudan derived from the proto Indo European ghuto-m . You see the pic of the Ethiopian bible and assume in error I'm from there, all you do is make an ass of u not me.
I'm always fascinated about all the different areas swastikas show up in. Shame how in the West you're just not allowed to use any form of swastika now
As a Hawaiian our religion pre Christian arrival was very similar to this
They are spot on about Dionysus. Though really it is not Dʰéǵʰōm as in Gaia. But the Sovereignty Goddess associated with the snake. She is also linked to the underworld like Žemyna is. It is just that standard PIE associated the Sky God thunder-god with the Earth Mother. Which is not correct. As the Sky Father (Ouranos or Caelus of the day sky), is the husband of Dʰéǵʰōm, not the thunder-god, whose wife is the Sovereignty Goddess. Like Odin and Freyja, or The Morrígan and The Dagda. The Sovereignty Goddess too is about the fertility of the earth and plants. Though not the earth itself. It is the same distinction the Romans had between Ceres and the Earth Mother. Ceres herself within Roman mythology is also not the Roman earth goddess, as this was Terra Mater (Mother Earth) instead. Ceres was however linked to her at some point, but only due to her connection to crops and fertility. Ceres is also an earth mother, but not Mother Earth like Gaia, or thus Dʰéǵʰōm.
Regarding Odin and Apollo. Yeah they are both linked to the wolf too, and wolf warriors, not just ravens. Apollo is the wolf-god of the wolf-light (dusk and dawn). The wolf is at the same time synonymous with light in his cult, in which he bears forth the light. The wolf thus is associated with the very kindling of light, and a hazardous time, the new beginnings and also the last hours.
At other times Apollo sends a wolf as his envoy for which a massive wolf was erected before his temple at Delphi. As a wolf, Apollo for instance destroys the Telchines of Rhodes by which he is called Telchinios, associating the wolf with violent winds and storms that can be just as damaging on crops as wolves are to livestock. This connection to storms is also echoed in the ancient Koryos connection to the thunder-god. Wolves are the children of Apollo.
Finally the poet Lycopron, said two wolves were the hounds of Apollo and represented his two prophets. Where Apollo was also invoked as follows; "And you, Apollo, lord of the Wolf, be a wolf to the enemy force and give them groan for groan!"
As per Apollo, this is where I can't agree with the Nietzscheans who only seem to imagine Apollo as a kind of awesome radiating light being in opposition to this dark, chthonic Dionysius. As you have already explicated above, Apollo's origins relating to the wolf could also be dark, chthonic and barbarous.
@josephpercy1558 There you are correct. It also means that the Nietzschean idea of the Apollonian versus Dionysian falls apart. Same with the strict separation of Order from Chaos. As Apollo as wolf God was a deity of both creation and destruction. With it the potential of renewal. Hence why he was called a Soteira.
Apollo also was the father of the Korybantes who protected and nurtured Dionysus. The Korybantes being one version of the Koryos also tied to Rhea. As same with Juno and the wolf warriors of Mars there is such a connection. Juno's name meaning rejuvenation. Where the Fianna (Irish Koryos) where dedicated to the Morrigan. The Vedic Sanjna also is tied to the Ashvins, and is the mother of Yama (*Yemo which is Dionysus), Manu and Yami (Artemis). Being connected to the serpent who steals the cattle that *Trito in PIE myth defeats. It was said in the Vedic texts that Yama and Yami where connected. This same you can see with Bendis (Artemis) and her connection to the Maenads and Dionysus. Where the Maruts (Vedic Koryos) with Indra defeats the serpent. Zeus similarly is tied to the Korybantes and the Ephebe. As much as Apollo is.
The Koryos in that sense under wolf Apollo of the twilight are the ones who unite Order and Chaos into one. A force of renewal, that holds the power of creation and destruction. As much as Odin does too. Though with this the modern rigid distinction of Order excluding Chaos is just a modern delusion. Our pagan ancestors knew how to harness it for renewal. Something we lack. Which is why we are stuck with the Progressive's versus Conservatives. The pagan answer was the rite of passage and heroes journey, internally within the person. Hence the mystery schools like the Eleusinian mysteries. They were all individuation rites. Much like the Orphic and Bacchic mysteries in their original form where too. Before it devolved into an excuse for orgies.
I find it so interesting that paganism in Britain reflects the historical migrations, as it is a combination of the Neolithic farmer traditions (worshipping in stone circles and being aligned with the solar wheel) and the Indo-European Dyēus/Zeus/sky, and the World Tree Religion/concept of he underworld and hell. How interesting.
Being as Odin Sigfather bestows victory then how might a Heathen go about understanding the state of the last 1500 years given his authority? Could there be specific lessons he would have learn from this ordeal he had the folk go through? And if so shouldn’t this line of inquiry and/or augury be one of us heathens’ primary concern?
If he was the "Victory-Father", where have been the "victories" for the last millennium?
@ Not for explicit Heathenry, that’s the point I’m making. There’s no guarantee of his beneficence and yet there are reasons for his decisions. What I’m alluding to is that his involvement is complex and so any approach made toward him should be as well.
Augury is an interpretation of omens.
Also, what "ordeal" are you talking about? It wasn't like it was with the jews who lived under the domination of other nations. The folk converted to christianity.
Btw, what you are saying sounds a lot like something that hebrews would say of their god. Down to how his involvement is "complex"
@Knauss-k6r My UPG inbound - Prehap Odin took a step back because he saw how much Christianity would unite our people, which would lead to great technological innovations, take over the world with empires, become stronger, richer, etc... Now that Christianity has run its course, it's dying off with the old God's surely raising again.
@@ThatchyThrone maybe it's time for the almighty Surt to blast this world asunder?
Surtr is actually a very gnostic figure when you think about it. He is anathema to this corrupted world and his world of Múspelheimr is primordial. Older than creation and, according to Snorri, older than even Niflheimr. Surprised GI didn't pick up on that. He's also associated with fire.
❤ We are already here and always have been!
Hmmm…with the human sacrifice too? Let me think about this one.
Have you read the bible? Rember Jephthah's daughter?
You don't have to do human sacrifices.
Theoretically Christianity is a religion based on the human sacrifice of Jesus, even having mock rituals called the Eucharist (drinking of blood and flesh of the sacrificial man, Jesus)
While it's great to note, the pagan Romans and Greeks outlawed human sacrifice in the Empire.
@@margaretyoung991But that is not meant to glorify or condone human sacrifice. In fact it shows the moral decline of the Jews and how they did many things against Mosiac law, which forbids human sacrifice and child sacrifice.
@@macinhorstemeyer1961why not? That’s how your ancestors worshipped so why is it wrong?
Yes! Absolutely!