I've been sailing a Soverel 30 for more than a decade. It has short fin keel with a 600lb centerboard lifted by a winch. It is a delight to sail and has been in service for more than 50 years.
Great video. We just discussed today in the office, whatever part is movable on a boat it might create an issue one day apart of advantages it delivers. The less movable, automatic and electronically driven parts the less headache.
I wouldn't mind asking you a question, I was looking for a boat that had a full keel but it looks like I'm going to end up with a lancer 42 with a fin keel and a Scag rudder, I was just wondering what you had I understand that a a full keel is slower in the water but more stable and the comfort ratio goes up with it but the comfort ratio goes down with a thin heel but the boat that I'm wanting the sailboat that I'm wanting to get, has a comfort ratio of almost 26 and I intend to sail around the world and the purchase isn't in the hat yet I can pull out still yet and anytime I want I was wondering if you had full keel and how much sailing you have done and if you have any input on this please. And same goes for the host of the show if you have seen this question well I've listened to what you said ocean going sailing if you wanted a higher comfort ratio that a full kill would be best but at a comfort ratio at 26 a little above is that good enough to be comfortable enough where am I in for a rough ride because I know that some people say that a comfort ratio is a ratio that shouldn't even be looked at that it's bogus but, it could be a standard, cuz I've seen some boats lower than what I'm looking at and I've seen some comfort ratios as high as a 60 so I'm figuring that it's somewhere in midfield, input would be more than welcome, especially before I go too far and slap the money on the table.
@@bencoss7003 Hi Brendon, can't judge haven't read that Lancers 42 are good quality boats, survey for sure. gather some more info on that. www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/lancer-42-why-so-cheap-25329.html regarding the keels, I would say the more uncomfortable cabins the more boat is designed for actual sailing. The ballast/displacement ratio is simply the ballast weight divided by the boat's total displacement, so ballast is a very big part of the comfort onboard. It really depends where you plan to sail. People circumnavigate on very different boats, offshore boats are mostly not for speed, therefore are are heavier.
@@AndyLipsberg morning Andy how you doing today? I hope well, well yes I've scoured the internet,, and yes I've been to cruisers forum that's where I get a lot of my data along with a few other spots, well for every person I found so far pretty well averages out I find one bad comment I find one good comment it's about 50% down the line, but most of the people that I found that gives it thumbs down, have never had one or been on one or been on a sea trial on one or even just recreationally, but the men who do give good mention of the lancer 42 has either their own lancer or had a 42 so like I said it's 50/50 so it's like like you say I'm going to have to go with a a good surveyor that's familiar with the boat, and I am very mechanically inclined the engine compartment on it just looks beautiful I go a lot by that if the guy can keep an engine compartment clean that says a lot about a gentleman, well hey thank you for your input it's much appreciated you have a good day.
@@bencoss7003 I don't think the Comfort rating is bogus. Personally subjective, possibily, but if you suffer from sea sickness, it might help you make a decision. Comfort rating, comes down to displacement, and then surface area that can be 'pushed' against by the energy of a wave, which you can't calculate in a static formula. Hence, the comfort ratio is 'a reasonable comparison between yachts of similar type'. The heavier something is the more energy that is needed to move it. If you look at the comfort formula, 'D ÷ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x Beam^1.33), where displacement is expressed in pounds, and length is expressed in feet', displacement is the primary variable. However, the surface area of the hull, the later part of the formua, also matters. Basically, an object with light weight, and large surface area will bob like a cork. An object that is heavy, with low surface area will move upward very little. From Ted Brewer : COMFORT RATIO (CR): This is a ratio that I dreamed up, tongue-in-cheek, as a measure of motion comfort but it has been widely accepted and, indeed, does provide a reasonable comparison between yachts of similar type. It is based on the fact that the faster the motion the more upsetting it is to the average person. Given a wave of X height, the speed of the upward motion depends on the displacement of the yacht and the amount of waterline area that is acted upon. Greater displacement, or lesser WL area, gives a slower motion and more comfort for any given sea state.
I sail a Balboa 26. She has a swing keel that locks in place with large a wingnut. I use a nylon nut instead as this will shear in the event of a grounding thus avoiding damage to the keel and the boat. I also never use the winch to raise the keel for any reason other than preparing to trailer her. This minimizes the amount of time that the lift cable is actually supporting the keel. In my book, the keel is either fully down and locked or its fully up and on the trailer. I did retract the keel after running aground once with no issues.
Nice vid. I own a Dutch made Relaxon sailboat with swing keel. Quite a nice boat really, with all the pros and cons you mentioned. Unfortunately with the added con that, although it obviously has less drag than a fixed keel boat, you have to be more careful in higher wind conditions to avoid tipping over simply because it lacks the mass a fixed keel has. I have little doubts that a similar boat with a fin keel is faster for that reason. But the benefits of a swing keel are far greater than he downsides and that is exactly why I bought this particular boat.
this is correct mostly...but not completely. Every boat is a complex system. The keel/centreboard is only one aspect. Hull shape and a dozen other things play a huge roll. A good centerboard boat will have a reasonable amount of ballast in the bottom of the hull to help with stability. Things like tanks and system components have to be designed to increase stability. The other point is that in heavy weather, you don't put your centerboard down all the way. You put it down enough to help your course, but not enough to overly hinder the boat's ability to surf down the waves...like a catamaran... You do this, and your centerboarder is less likely to fall or capsize. In the end, you just have to learn how to sail your boat...
Couldn't handle the back ground music, sorry. Looks like a good video, pity. I just don't have the extra concentration it would take to screen it out. Probably age related.
You're very right, I used to say very stupid things when I was younger too, the older you get the wiser you get well hopefully you do because sometimes when you get older you look at stupid things that you've done in the past and cringe, this will probably one of them
@@bencoss7003 You are not understanding. I am an older gentleman and find trouble concentrating on multiple things at once. Many young people seem to have less problem with that I have noticed And your tone Brendon seems harsh, saying stupid twice in one email.
@@liamstone3437 poor little fella what's the matter you can't focus your little mind because of the music? I know you're type, I bet you have a hard time with walking and chewing bubble gum, please tell me it's not true!
One aspect of swing keels you missed is that they have reduced righting capability when the swing keel is fully raised. Some swing keels can even fall back into the trunk when the boat suffers a knock-down.. Many swing keel sailors lock the keel down for this reason. Of course, then if you run aground…damage is done. Most centerboard boats are dinghys, but I sail a cabin cruiser with a ballasted shoal draft keel and centerboard combination. It’s still self-righting with the centerboard full up or down. A nice advantage over the swing keel design.
Just want to mention that your concerns, while valid, don't really apply to catamarans, since the nature of catamaran knock-down is... let's say it's different ;)
Do any swing keels have a mechanism that allows them to pivot upward in a grounding, but locks them down in a capsize? What are the different terms to describe the swing keels that fully retract into trunks, like centerboards Vs Lifting keels that tuck against the hull, but do not fully retract, like a Pogo 50, or Allure 45.9?
Okay there's a question that I asked another person here and I'm going to ask the community and the host of the show I am just about a stepp to away from purchasing a 1982 lancer 42 masthead sloop, it is set up for solo sailing, and it has a modified fin keel with a skeg Rutter, I have never had a sailboat before so I do not have a reference to go by, I know that a fin keel is not quite as stable as a full keel but I know that a full keel is not as fast in the water as a modified fin keel , so there's a trade-off there speed over comfort just a little bit, but does anybody have any practical knowledge between the two and on both different types that can tell me the reaction the plus and the minuses of the two, and if they do your input is very much so welcome before I throw the money down on the table cuz I'm just about two frog hairs away from getting it done, I also know that there's a comfort ratio, but I also know that the comfort ratio is a little bit scoffed at in the sailing community, I know it's like a possible zero to 60 point ratio, but for a beginner like me I know that some of you might not think what I'm thinking, but to a beginner at least it's a point of reference ,now the comfort ratio on the lancer that I'm looking at which is a lancer 42 made in 1981, has a comfort ratio like right off the top my head it's I know it's 26 something ,you know I can't remember what I do know it's halfway up on the scale it was like 26.35 out of a possible 60, you almost have 30 points there according to the comfort ratio I'm getting something about midways on the scale, so does that make it halfway smooth, halfway rough, or is it that it's just halfway smooth and performs better in certain situations than others? all input is welcome just as long as it's, information criticism is not welcome, but constructive criticism even though it's still criticism there is information there,I know that some people can't help themselves, and PS there nothing in the background except thought.
Comfort ratings don't include the wave energy as that is subject to the conditions at the time. It is relative to similar boat types. Look at it this way, if comfort is your key criteria, if a 30 ft boat had a rating of 50, and a 60 ft boat had a rating of 40, which boat would you expect to move around more if they were side by side, in the same sea conditions? For you, I would suggest looking at other 42 ft boats, (or ones you are considering) and choose the one with the highest comfort rating. However, a larger boat with a lower comfort rating could be more comfortable. As a rule of thumb, heavier is more comfortable. Also, I would look at the stiffness rating considering your emphasis on comfort. That will tell you how quickly the boat heels in response to wind. I suspect you would be happier with a boat that doesn't roll over quickly in a gust!
If you want to see more swing keel in practice, look up the Shards (Paul and Cheryl) and their series "Distant Shores". They started out on a home-built fixed-keel boat but by season 4 they bought a Southerly 42DS. They cover the swing keel feature in several episodes.
I have a 21' com pac eclipse with a center board and stub keel. I've never used the center board. I feel the boat being pushed by the wind sometimes but I'm not racing so I don't care. I'm usually just relaxing and the board seems like too much of a hassle. it's 200lbs the keel 740lbs. My friend has a hunter 23 with a swing keel. His boat can actually be knocked down in light winds if the keel isn't down.
I think those are considered centerboards. The righting moment is provided by ballast in the hull. The advantage is you keep your righting moment even when retracting the centerboard. The disadvantage is the boat is heavier and likely slower than an equivalent lifting keel or full keel boat; since it takes more mass to get the same righting moment when higher in the water. Still I think the Garcia is an excellent design, and seems like a really nice overall compromise for a true go anywhere boat.
For a few decades, I sailed a Pearson Wanderer. The full keel was just over one meter deep. From it dropped a swing keel for a total draft of over two meters. In most conditions, the boat handled well without lowering the board. She pointed very well with the board down and ran fast with it up. One could move the boats center aft by lowering half way. In the shallow bays of the east coast of USA, the Chesapeake, Albemarle, Pamlico, Long Island and Cape Cod, this was my perfect boat. I won quite a few races because I could navigate short cuts over shoals on which other boats would run aground. Sailed like a dream when got got into blue water.
You mentioned a heavy bulb on the bottom on swing keels, I have only seen them on what I would classify as a drop keel (which you didn't show in a diagram), which is held in a slot like a dagger board but is heavy, so acts to stop leeway and provide ballast. I have recently sailed in a plain heavy ish drop keel boat, Sedna 24, and used to sail an Edel 2 which had a triangular plate keel similar to diagram, but due to relatively low weight required for an18' boat was operated by a simple chain.
Very good stuff, friend. It seems that another disadvantage is the internal space that this type of keel has to occupy, doesn't it? Can a boat with a wooden hull be fitted with a swing keel? I don't think so, do you?
I’ve read somewhere that a centerboard/swing keel is helpful when running, you lift it and do not risk those harsh broaching consequences as in a fixed keel, when you are slightly turned sideways (yawned) by a following wave, then your fixed keel brakes you in the water and wind in the sail just drags you to horizontal position until the sail spills wind, it is scary
Have a swing keel boat. In describing it to someone once used the term. The guy told me about the canting keel and saying I used the terrm wrong, so I watched your video to see. Made it almost half way through before that music drove me away. Awful. Why?? At least tone it down. Good god. Absolutely distracting. Is it supposed to be hypnotic?
A swing keel with a screw mechanism for lowering and raising is the best. No chance of the mechanism braking like a wire or rope and pulley system. The screw mechanism just needs winding with a regular winch handle and greasing twice a year.
Your use of the term dagger board is incorrect. A dagger board is a vertical lift board such as found on Mirror Dinghy. It's not a keel. Centreboards don't have hinges. They have a bolt that they pivot around. Both swing keels and Centre boards have a centre case and basically are the same thing although there are various designs. My yacht has a heavy ballasted drop keel which is lifted vertically by a vertical hydraulic ram. It's a design that is rarely seen in Europe. In part because it is very expensive to build. And there is a sealed centre case that runs from the bottom of te hull through to the cabin top. It does however convert the yacht into a proper self righting keel boat which we use for ocean sailing but can also be trailered behind a small truck.
Nice explanations regarding the movable keel types. I sail a boat with a swing centerboard and a water ballast. Because it heels more than boats with weighted keels, sail selection is more critical to achieve optimum speed in varying conditions. You mentioned two potential downsides - breaking the lifting cable or losing the centerboard entirely. The first is not that big a problem. You keep sailing, the cable is easily replaced, and the boat can be trailered by using a rope run athwartship to lift it into the trunk (ask me how I know). Losing it entirely is, IMO, a vanishingly small possibility. A good, stout bolt and a proper self-locking nut will ensure the centerboard will stay right where it should. Seasonal inspection is plenty good for this.
I saw a video about a sailboat with a bilge keel and a full keel together. Have you seen many boats like that? And what do you think it's performance would be like?
Swing Keels are great, but they have unexpected limitations, such as being wrecked by violent waves in certain places in the world. A bolt-on keel is arguably the more rugged choice.
Great video, I come from a land locked location where large and medium lakes are my only real option for sailing. The McGregor sailboats i find interesting. It may be a special type, but the swing or dagger board keel with the water ballast combination looks very easy for beginner sailors. I havent had a chance to try one, but got to speak to an own that highly recomended it, even a 26 ft boat over a 14 ft dingy because of how easy it was to handle.
Sounds great, there's another viewer of this channel also looking at a MacGregor 26 (I believe under Keel Types Explained). Seems like a fun beginner sailboat and I will look into it myself, thanks for the tip.
As a proud and happy owner of a MacGregor 26S (not to be confused with the M or X), I am a wholehearted endorser of the swing centerboard water ballast design. At a dry weight of 1650 lbs (plus 800 for the trailer), this boat can be easily trailered, making it perfect for sailing/camping vacations. The M and X have a hybrid planing/displacement design that make it possible for them to move at pretty good speed under power. For this reason they are very popular for rivers, canals, and narrow waterways, and will get you to your next port even when there is no wind. They are a tad heavier than the S. I chose the S because I prefer the more nimble and speedy (okay, not slow) displacement hull of the S (and D) designs.
The purists of sailing hate the McGregor boats. I like the part, where I can raise the keel and make 20 plus knots on the motor, when I'm in a rush to get somewhere. The shipyard for wooden boats where I traded for 25 years disowned me, when they found out that I had sold my classic wooden sailboat and picked up a plastic McGregor 26. To each his own.
I have a jeanneau sundream with lift centerboard in a stub keel. Over Christmas the lifting mechanism came off the lift keel I had to commission custom replacement clevis pins. Getting it lifted soon so I can reattach and so I thought it would also be good to get info on the pivot bin/bolt so I have a spare to hand if mine is corroded or bent.. But trying to source info has proven impossible. Jeanneau are no help as an 80s - 90s era boat. Found a post where someone removed their pin to check but they didnt get measurements of it or photos if its components. Very frustrating
There are both benefits and liabilities with "movable" keels. For me, I will nearly always prefer a fixed keel because a moving part + below the waterline = bad mojo. However, they can let you sail into more shallow waters.
I have a swing keel on a Coronado 25. You hit the nail on the head. Only draw back I have found is lying at anchor with the keel down to limit roll when trying to sleep. I have a loose hinge knock with the keel down Keel up excessive rolling, Keel down excessive noise. Take your choice.
We are new sailors. We want to sail for pleasure in our nearby lake. Although it is a large lake, it has "stump beds" below the surface. We are looking for a sailboat with a keel that can quickly be raised to avoid hitting a stump. We also want to get close to shore to drop anchor and swim. Trying to find the best choice for us. Any feedback would be appreciated.
Man… I have a Albin 57 sale boat and it has weighed swing keel. I haven’t even really been sailing that boat on the salt water. Only on a small Estonian lake but this boat could actually be quite a nice boat for Baltic Sea and maybe even visiting the Netherlands.
I have deleted one comment, the host of the show says that he encourages input, if the host says it then I believe it, and he encourages it, even though that I find the host information very good, some people seem to be annoyed as something as simple as background music, well like I said before to a person or persons, something as simple as background music when the information is very informative, and is something that the host likes ,and is something that I can't help, and is up to the discretion of the host, and the information is captivating, and if you can't get over a little bitty bump in the road like background music ,then you go ahead and cry ,cry all you like, because I'll be listening and learning.
I have a mix of lowering and swing keel. While transporting its hoisted up in the boat, a trailer sailer. In the water I lover it down. The bolt are fixed and lies in two brackets. And then I pull the upper part a bit forward so the lower part goes backwards. With a momentum it is fixed in the brackets. When going to the shallow water I can pull it all the way up under the boat. Then I only have 50 cm draft. The keel is only 50 kg. And a 140 l ballast tank.
Hi, really nice video. I am in the process of building a new sailboat for my playground (Rio de la Plata) which is really shallow (mud, sand and shales) and I have opted for the swing keel design. It will be about 2 tons, in a boat of 5.5 tons. My concern regarding agrounding is related to how to protect the: 1) the hull and 2) the hydraulic system itself, to make sure the energy goes thru it and it is absorved. Any recomendation on where to look more into this topic? Regards, Juan Pablo
swinging 2 tons on a cable ?..have you considered the Oday 25/26 type of keels where the majority of the weight (1500lbs)is mounted to the hull and thru the middle of that (which is on a cable), is a swinging centerboard of 60 lbs ? 60 lbs versus 2000 lbs 60 much easier to work with if there ever is a problem. just sayin
@@unconventionalideas5683 thank you very much for your reply / i live next to a sea loch and have been given a yacht with no rigging and twin keel and a 10hp outboard i simply would like to go back and forth over loch around 3 miles by sea but a lot more by road . i have very little experience and simply would like to know to make the trips safer would outriggers be a good idea to stop it rolling over if sea is ruff . thank you for any help . and sorry if it is a stupid question but best to ask if you dont know
good, but i don't want to see your face, not even at 2 meters and even les 10 minutes, i'm not watching this video when it could have ben done with few screens with diagrams in 2 minutes sorry for the people that leave or have to endure watching your facial expressions and skin spots
Unfortunately, the facts/descriptions the "lecturer" uses are quite repetitive and the points can be made clearly without the video being nearly as long. I am on my 3rd lifting keel yacht and the advantages and detractions to sailing this type of vessel are as stated but the inference that the "swing keel" raises up into the hull is incorrect in many boats. Jeanneau for instance who with parent company Beneteau make more boats than any other builder use a format where the keel swings up under the hull and the boat can take the ground by triangulating with twin rudders (taking the "ground" on 3 points).
David, I’m in the uk. I have just bought a oceanis 35 lifting keel and I’m trying to find information on the internet but there is very little. Wondered which boats you’ve owned ?
@@chrisdickinson1762 Just saw your comment today. My first boat was a Jaguar 22, built under licence from Catalina in the US. (Surprisingly they are still produced today- mine was old when I bought it 15 years ago). It had a somewhat crude swing keel which, in the upward horizontal positing still lived below the hull so would not take the ground and remain comfortably upright as the rudder also lifted. The second and in some ways favourite was a Superseal 26 and the keel was a daggerboard design lifting vertically into a keel box which was full height from hull to coachroof. The rudder also swung up so it would take the ground quite safely (same way as Southerlies). My current boat is a Jeanneau & uses a swing keel which is housed within a heavy cast Iron keel stub which I suspect is not dissimilar to yours however I think your "box" has winged profile for stability on the ground and some added righting through the water. The 2 points I think are worth mentioning are as follows: my boat suffers when taking the ground on sand or any loose surface if there is a current past the rudders because there are no "boots" to stop them digging in and if the current is strong it created a bit of a vortex effect sucking the sand out. This can cause the boat to tip! 2) I believe the Beneteau mechanism for lifting the keel is a screw/worm gear rather than just pulleys, that means if you do ground while underway the keel is prevented from freely swinging up so I would suggest retracting it before you go into any shallows.
@@davidtilley2168 thanks for the reply, yes i think your Jeanneau is a similar design. Your right my keel box has a winged profile, however i think (not confirmed yet and i may be wrong) the worm drive lifts a wire lanyard which would allow the keel to lift if it took the ground forward. Ill update you on that after iv inspected it next. I’m not really expecting to take the ground but I’m looking forward to anchoring in more shallows. I’m trying to research the maintenance program for the beneteau lifting keel but there’s zero on the internet and its not even mentioned in the owners manual. Im going to look at inspecting the worm drive and greasing it. I’m looking forward to experimenting points of sail with the keel in different positions. My oceanis is a 2015. What’s your Jeanneau?
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I've been sailing a Soverel 30 for more than a decade. It has short fin keel with a 600lb centerboard lifted by a winch. It is a delight to sail and has been in service for more than 50 years.
Great video. We just discussed today in the office, whatever part is movable on a boat it might create an issue one day apart of advantages it delivers. The less movable, automatic and electronically driven parts the less headache.
Glad it was helpful. I agree, simpler designs are more reliable! Good luck with picking your keel
I wouldn't mind asking you a question, I was looking for a boat that had a full keel but it looks like I'm going to end up with a lancer 42 with a fin keel and a Scag rudder, I was just wondering what you had I understand that a a full keel is slower in the water but more stable and the comfort ratio goes up with it but the comfort ratio goes down with a thin heel but the boat that I'm wanting the sailboat that I'm wanting to get, has a comfort ratio of almost 26 and I intend to sail around the world and the purchase isn't in the hat yet I can pull out still yet and anytime I want I was wondering if you had full keel and how much sailing you have done and if you have any input on this please. And same goes for the host of the show if you have seen this question well I've listened to what you said ocean going sailing if you wanted a higher comfort ratio that a full kill would be best but at a comfort ratio at 26 a little above is that good enough to be comfortable enough where am I in for a rough ride because I know that some people say that a comfort ratio is a ratio that shouldn't even be looked at that it's bogus but, it could be a standard, cuz I've seen some boats lower than what I'm looking at and I've seen some comfort ratios as high as a 60 so I'm figuring that it's somewhere in midfield, input would be more than welcome, especially before I go too far and slap the money on the table.
@@bencoss7003 Hi Brendon, can't judge haven't read that Lancers 42 are good quality boats, survey for sure. gather some more info on that. www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f47/lancer-42-why-so-cheap-25329.html regarding the keels, I would say the more uncomfortable cabins the more boat is designed for actual sailing. The ballast/displacement ratio is simply the ballast weight divided by the boat's total displacement, so ballast is a very big part of the comfort onboard. It really depends where you plan to sail. People circumnavigate on very different boats, offshore boats are mostly not for speed, therefore are are heavier.
@@AndyLipsberg morning Andy how you doing today? I hope well, well yes I've scoured the internet,, and yes I've been to cruisers forum that's where I get a lot of my data along with a few other spots, well for every person I found so far pretty well averages out I find one bad comment I find one good comment it's about 50% down the line, but most of the people that I found that gives it thumbs down, have never had one or been on one or been on a sea trial on one or even just recreationally, but the men who do give good mention of the lancer 42 has either their own lancer or had a 42 so like I said it's 50/50 so it's like like you say I'm going to have to go with a a good surveyor that's familiar with the boat, and I am very mechanically inclined the engine compartment on it just looks beautiful I go a lot by that if the guy can keep an engine compartment clean that says a lot about a gentleman, well hey thank you for your input it's much appreciated you have a good day.
@@bencoss7003 I don't think the Comfort rating is bogus. Personally subjective, possibily, but if you suffer from sea sickness, it might help you make a decision. Comfort rating, comes down to displacement, and then surface area that can be 'pushed' against by the energy of a wave, which you can't calculate in a static formula. Hence, the comfort ratio is 'a reasonable comparison between yachts of similar type'. The heavier something is the more energy that is needed to move it. If you look at the comfort formula, 'D ÷ (.65 x (.7 LWL + .3 LOA) x Beam^1.33), where displacement is expressed in pounds, and length is expressed in feet', displacement is the primary variable. However, the surface area of the hull, the later part of the formua, also matters. Basically, an object with light weight, and large surface area will bob like a cork. An object that is heavy, with low surface area will move upward very little. From Ted Brewer : COMFORT RATIO (CR): This is a ratio that I dreamed up, tongue-in-cheek, as a measure of motion comfort but it has been widely accepted and, indeed, does provide a reasonable comparison between yachts of similar type. It is based on the fact that the faster the motion the more upsetting it is to the average person. Given a wave of X height, the speed of the upward motion depends on the displacement of the yacht and the amount of waterline area that is acted upon. Greater displacement, or lesser WL area, gives a slower motion and more comfort for any given sea state.
I sail a Balboa 26. She has a swing keel that locks in place with large a wingnut. I use a nylon nut instead as this will shear in the event of a grounding thus avoiding damage to the keel and the boat. I also never use the winch to raise the keel for any reason other than preparing to trailer her. This minimizes the amount of time that the lift cable is actually supporting the keel. In my book, the keel is either fully down and locked or its fully up and on the trailer. I did retract the keel after running aground once with no issues.
Nice vid.
I own a Dutch made Relaxon sailboat with swing keel. Quite a nice boat really, with all the pros and cons you mentioned. Unfortunately with the added con that, although it obviously has less drag than a fixed keel boat, you have to be more careful in higher wind conditions to avoid tipping over simply because it lacks the mass a fixed keel has. I have little doubts that a similar boat with a fin keel is faster for that reason.
But the benefits of a swing keel are far greater than he downsides and that is exactly why I bought this particular boat.
You're probably right about that
this is correct mostly...but not completely. Every boat is a complex system. The keel/centreboard is only one aspect. Hull shape and a dozen other things play a huge roll. A good centerboard boat will have a reasonable amount of ballast in the bottom of the hull to help with stability. Things like tanks and system components have to be designed to increase stability.
The other point is that in heavy weather, you don't put your centerboard down all the way. You put it down enough to help your course, but not enough to overly hinder the boat's ability to surf down the waves...like a catamaran...
You do this, and your centerboarder is less likely to fall or capsize.
In the end, you just have to learn how to sail your boat...
I am considering a swing keel boat. Thank you for your explanation.
Couldn't handle the back ground music, sorry. Looks like a good video, pity. I just don't have the extra concentration it would take to screen it out. Probably age related.
You're very right, I used to say very stupid things when I was younger too, the older you get the wiser you get well hopefully you do because sometimes when you get older you look at stupid things that you've done in the past and cringe, this will probably one of them
@@bencoss7003 You are not understanding. I am an older gentleman and find trouble concentrating on multiple things at once. Many young people seem to have less problem with that I have noticed And your tone Brendon seems harsh, saying stupid twice in one email.
@@latetotheparty3070 I apologize sir 100%
I too, cannot stand the music. Brendon is a troll. A brain dead troll.
@@liamstone3437 poor little fella what's the matter you can't focus your little mind because of the music? I know you're type, I bet you have a hard time with walking and chewing bubble gum, please tell me it's not true!
I have a swing keel, this was helpful. Thanks
Really helpful and succinct, thank you.
I learn so much from your videos. Thanks!
One aspect of swing keels you missed is that they have reduced righting capability when the swing keel is fully raised. Some swing keels can even fall back into the trunk when the boat suffers a knock-down.. Many swing keel sailors lock the keel down for this reason. Of course, then if you run aground…damage is done. Most centerboard boats are dinghys, but I sail a cabin cruiser with a ballasted shoal draft keel and centerboard combination. It’s still self-righting with the centerboard full up or down. A nice advantage over the swing keel design.
Just want to mention that your concerns, while valid, don't really apply to catamarans, since the nature of catamaran knock-down is... let's say it's different ;)
Do any swing keels have a mechanism that allows them to pivot upward in a grounding, but locks them down in a capsize?
What are the different terms to describe the swing keels that fully retract into trunks, like centerboards
Vs
Lifting keels that tuck against the hull, but do not fully retract, like a Pogo 50, or Allure 45.9?
Great video. Watching sailing melody keel tomorrow. It's in the shed. Andy needs to get to work on it.
WHAT A BEAUTIFUL MAN 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
why on earth would you want a boat with a big hole in it?? How does the keel slot seal?
Okay there's a question that I asked another person here and I'm going to ask the community and the host of the show I am just about a stepp to away from purchasing a 1982 lancer 42 masthead sloop, it is set up for solo sailing, and it has a modified fin keel with a skeg Rutter, I have never had a sailboat before so I do not have a reference to go by, I know that a fin keel is not quite as stable as a full keel but I know that a full keel is not as fast in the water as a modified fin keel , so there's a trade-off there speed over comfort just a little bit, but does anybody have any practical knowledge between the two and on both different types that can tell me the reaction the plus and the minuses of the two, and if they do your input is very much so welcome before I throw the money down on the table cuz I'm just about two frog hairs away from getting it done, I also know that there's a comfort ratio, but I also know that the comfort ratio is a little bit scoffed at in the sailing community, I know it's like a possible zero to 60 point ratio, but for a beginner like me I know that some of you might not think what I'm thinking, but to a beginner at least it's a point of reference ,now the comfort ratio on the lancer that I'm looking at which is a lancer 42 made in 1981, has a comfort ratio like right off the top my head it's I know it's 26 something ,you know I can't remember what I do know it's halfway up on the scale it was like 26.35 out of a possible 60, you almost have 30 points there according to the comfort ratio I'm getting something about midways on the scale, so does that make it halfway smooth, halfway rough, or is it that it's just halfway smooth and performs better in certain situations than others? all input is welcome just as long as it's, information criticism is not welcome, but constructive criticism even though it's still criticism there is information there,I know that some people can't help themselves, and PS there nothing in the background except thought.
Comfort ratings don't include the wave energy as that is subject to the conditions at the time. It is relative to similar boat types. Look at it this way, if comfort is your key criteria, if a 30 ft boat had a rating of 50, and a 60 ft boat had a rating of 40, which boat would you expect to move around more if they were side by side, in the same sea conditions? For you, I would suggest looking at other 42 ft boats, (or ones you are considering) and choose the one with the highest comfort rating. However, a larger boat with a lower comfort rating could be more comfortable. As a rule of thumb, heavier is more comfortable. Also, I would look at the stiffness rating considering your emphasis on comfort. That will tell you how quickly the boat heels in response to wind. I suspect you would be happier with a boat that doesn't roll over quickly in a gust!
This video was 11 mins too long
If you want to see more swing keel in practice, look up the Shards (Paul and Cheryl) and their series "Distant Shores". They started out on a home-built fixed-keel boat but by season 4 they bought a Southerly 42DS. They cover the swing keel feature in several episodes.
Good information but a bit repeatative. A few animated diagrams would help the interest factor.
I have a 21' com pac eclipse with a center board and stub keel. I've never used the center board. I feel the boat being pushed by the wind sometimes but I'm not racing so I don't care. I'm usually just relaxing and the board seems like too much of a hassle. it's 200lbs the keel 740lbs. My friend has a hunter 23 with a swing keel. His boat can actually be knocked down in light winds if the keel isn't down.
Nice! Go check out Garcia's lifting keels, they seem to have addressed your concerns.
I think those are considered centerboards. The righting moment is provided by ballast in the hull. The advantage is you keep your righting moment even when retracting the centerboard. The disadvantage is the boat is heavier and likely slower than an equivalent lifting keel or full keel boat; since it takes more mass to get the same righting moment when higher in the water. Still I think the Garcia is an excellent design, and seems like a really nice overall compromise for a true go anywhere boat.
the music was distracting from the info,,better to not have music when you are trying to deliver info
For a few decades, I sailed a Pearson Wanderer. The full keel was just over one meter deep. From it dropped a swing keel for a total draft of over two meters. In most conditions, the boat handled well without lowering the board. She pointed very well with the board down and ran fast with it up. One could move the boats center aft by lowering half way. In the shallow bays of the east coast of USA, the Chesapeake, Albemarle, Pamlico, Long Island and Cape Cod, this was my perfect boat. I won quite a few races because I could navigate short cuts over shoals on which other boats would run aground. Sailed like a dream when got got into blue water.
Good information but you need a lot more pictures & animation
You mentioned a heavy bulb on the bottom on swing keels, I have only seen them on what I would classify as a drop keel (which you didn't show in a diagram), which is held in a slot like a dagger board but is heavy, so acts to stop leeway and provide ballast.
I have recently sailed in a plain heavy ish drop keel boat, Sedna 24, and used to sail an Edel 2 which had a triangular plate keel similar to diagram, but due to relatively low weight required for an18' boat was operated by a simple chain.
I’ve owned two swing keels and neither had a bulb!
Very good stuff, friend. It seems that another disadvantage is the internal space that this type of keel has to occupy, doesn't it? Can a boat with a wooden hull be fitted with a swing keel? I don't think so, do you?
I’ve read somewhere that a centerboard/swing keel is helpful when running, you lift it and do not risk those harsh broaching consequences as in a fixed keel, when you are slightly turned sideways (yawned) by a following wave, then your fixed keel brakes you in the water and wind in the sail just drags you to horizontal position until the sail spills wind, it is scary
Have a swing keel boat. In describing it to someone once used the term. The guy told me about the canting keel and saying I used the terrm wrong, so I watched your video to see. Made it almost half way through before that music drove me away. Awful. Why?? At least tone it down. Good god. Absolutely distracting. Is it supposed to be hypnotic?
A swing keel with a screw mechanism for lowering and raising is the best. No chance of the mechanism braking like a wire or rope and pulley system. The screw mechanism just needs winding with a regular winch handle and greasing twice a year.
Your use of the term dagger board is incorrect. A dagger board is a vertical lift board such as found on Mirror Dinghy. It's not a keel. Centreboards don't have hinges. They have a bolt that they pivot around. Both swing keels and Centre boards have a centre case and basically are the same thing although there are various designs. My yacht has a heavy ballasted drop keel which is lifted vertically by a vertical hydraulic ram. It's a design that is rarely seen in Europe. In part because it is very expensive to build. And there is a sealed centre case that runs from the bottom of te hull through to the cabin top. It does however convert the yacht into a proper self righting keel boat which we use for ocean sailing but can also be trailered behind a small truck.
Good and not very common information served up with unrelated and distracting music.
My boat has a very unusual setup, a triple bilge keel with a centreboard.
Nice explanations regarding the movable keel types. I sail a boat with a swing centerboard and a water ballast. Because it heels more than boats with weighted keels, sail selection is more critical to achieve optimum speed in varying conditions. You mentioned two potential downsides - breaking the lifting cable or losing the centerboard entirely. The first is not that big a problem. You keep sailing, the cable is easily replaced, and the boat can be trailered by using a rope run athwartship to lift it into the trunk (ask me how I know). Losing it entirely is, IMO, a vanishingly small possibility. A good, stout bolt and a proper self-locking nut will ensure the centerboard will stay right where it should. Seasonal inspection is plenty good for this.
I take it you must own and sail a McGregor,,, I;m thinking about buying one
Im considering a lifting keel revolution 22 afep marine.
I saw a video about a sailboat with a bilge keel and a full keel together. Have you seen many boats like that? And what do you think it's performance would be like?
Who s here after bayesian tragedy?
Swing Keels are great, but they have unexpected limitations, such as being wrecked by violent waves in certain places in the world. A bolt-on keel is arguably the more rugged choice.
Great video, I come from a land locked location where large and medium lakes are my only real option for sailing. The McGregor sailboats i find interesting. It may be a special type, but the swing or dagger board keel with the water ballast combination looks very easy for beginner sailors. I havent had a chance to try one, but got to speak to an own that highly recomended it, even a 26 ft boat over a 14 ft dingy because of how easy it was to handle.
Sounds great, there's another viewer of this channel also looking at a MacGregor 26 (I believe under Keel Types Explained). Seems like a fun beginner sailboat and I will look into it myself, thanks for the tip.
As a proud and happy owner of a MacGregor 26S (not to be confused with the M or X), I am a wholehearted endorser of the swing centerboard water ballast design. At a dry weight of 1650 lbs (plus 800 for the trailer), this boat can be easily trailered, making it perfect for sailing/camping vacations. The M and X have a hybrid planing/displacement design that make it possible for them to move at pretty good speed under power. For this reason they are very popular for rivers, canals, and narrow waterways, and will get you to your next port even when there is no wind. They are a tad heavier than the S. I chose the S because I prefer the more nimble and speedy (okay, not slow) displacement hull of the S (and D) designs.
The purists of sailing hate the McGregor boats. I like the part, where I can raise the keel and make 20 plus knots on the motor, when I'm in a rush to get somewhere. The shipyard for wooden boats where I traded for 25 years disowned me, when they found out that I had sold my classic wooden sailboat and picked up a plastic McGregor 26. To each his own.
I have a jeanneau sundream with lift centerboard in a stub keel. Over Christmas the lifting mechanism came off the lift keel I had to commission custom replacement clevis pins. Getting it lifted soon so I can reattach and so I thought it would also be good to get info on the pivot bin/bolt so I have a spare to hand if mine is corroded or bent.. But trying to source info has proven impossible. Jeanneau are no help as an 80s - 90s era boat. Found a post where someone removed their pin to check but they didnt get measurements of it or photos if its components. Very frustrating
There are both benefits and liabilities with "movable" keels. For me, I will nearly always prefer a fixed keel because a moving part + below the waterline = bad mojo.
However, they can let you sail into more shallow waters.
I have a swing keel on a Coronado 25. You hit the nail on the head. Only draw back I have found is lying at anchor with the keel down to limit roll when trying to sleep. I have a loose hinge knock with the keel down Keel up excessive rolling,
Keel down excessive noise. Take your choice.
We are new sailors. We want to sail for pleasure in our nearby lake. Although it is a large lake, it has "stump beds" below the surface. We are looking for a sailboat with a keel that can quickly be raised to avoid hitting a stump. We also want to get close to shore to drop anchor and swim. Trying to find the best choice for us. Any feedback would be appreciated.
My main question. Or issue. How much keel when and where. I'm tempted to mark my winch with guide indicators. Is this a good plan or not.
Man… I have a Albin 57 sale boat and it has weighed swing keel. I haven’t even really been sailing that boat on the salt water. Only on a small Estonian lake but this boat could actually be quite a nice boat for Baltic Sea and maybe even visiting the Netherlands.
Resistance ahead of sail effort is the normal principle of keeling. This is a seaworthy quality that is a faster sailboat design.
So what’s your thoughts on the centerboard design by McConaghy ?
Hey, thank you very much for the in-depth, knowledable insight on sailing basics, now give that eagle a good stroke you deserve it.
How often do bolted on keels get knocked off? Explain a stepped keel , please. Advantages?
thanks for the videos
...very informative
You're welcome, thanks for leaving a comment
I have deleted one comment, the host of the show says that he encourages input, if the host says it then I believe it, and he encourages it, even though that I find the host information very good, some people seem to be annoyed as something as simple as background music, well like I said before to a person or persons, something as simple as background music when the information is very informative, and is something that the host likes ,and is something that I can't help, and is up to the discretion of the host, and the information is captivating, and if you can't get over a little bitty bump in the road like background music ,then you go ahead and cry ,cry all you like, because I'll be listening and learning.
great info thank you
I have a mix of lowering and swing keel. While transporting its hoisted up in the boat, a trailer sailer. In the water I lover it down. The bolt are fixed and lies in two brackets. And then I pull the upper part a bit forward so the lower part goes backwards. With a momentum it is fixed in the brackets. When going to the shallow water I can pull it all the way up under the boat. Then I only have 50 cm draft. The keel is only 50 kg. And a 140 l ballast tank.
Sounds great, 50cm draft would be able to sail in Friesland without trouble!
Hi, really nice video. I am in the process of building a new sailboat for my playground (Rio de la Plata) which is really shallow (mud, sand and shales) and I have opted for the swing keel design. It will be about 2 tons, in a boat of 5.5 tons. My concern regarding agrounding is related to how to protect the: 1) the hull and 2) the hydraulic system itself, to make sure the energy goes thru it and it is absorved. Any recomendation on where to look more into this topic? Regards, Juan Pablo
swinging 2 tons on a cable ?..have you considered the Oday 25/26 type of keels where the majority of the weight (1500lbs)is mounted to the hull and thru the middle of that (which is on a cable), is a swinging centerboard of 60 lbs ? 60 lbs versus 2000 lbs 60 much easier to work with if there ever is a problem. just sayin
Thank you.
You are very informative.
Loving your videos
Are you thig guys son? ua-cam.com/users/4xforum
Nope, although I wouldn't mind a dad with an Overlander
Monohulls Eeeeuuuuww !
is a sail yacht more stable with or without rigging ? if less stable can you fit outriggers to make a catamaran style
You can have a trimaran whereby it is a monohull with outriggers. That does exist.
@@unconventionalideas5683 thank you very much for your reply / i live next to a sea loch and have been given a yacht with no rigging and twin keel and a 10hp outboard i simply would like to go back and forth over loch around 3 miles by sea but a lot more by road . i have very little experience and simply would like to know to make the trips safer would outriggers be a good idea to stop it rolling over if sea is ruff . thank you for any help . and sorry if it is a stupid question but best to ask if you dont know
Too wordy...Constantly repeating yourself!
good, but i don't want to see your face, not even at 2 meters and even les 10 minutes, i'm not watching this video when it could have ben done with few screens with diagrams in 2 minutes
sorry for the people that leave or have to endure watching your facial expressions and skin spots
Surely his face is not so awful, eh? That said, that is an interesting point about graphics.
Unfortunately, the facts/descriptions the "lecturer" uses are quite repetitive and the points can be made clearly without the video being nearly as long. I am on my 3rd lifting keel yacht and the advantages and detractions to sailing this type of vessel are as stated but the inference that the "swing keel" raises up into the hull is incorrect in many boats. Jeanneau for instance who with parent company Beneteau make more boats than any other builder use a format where the keel swings up under the hull and the boat can take the ground by triangulating with twin rudders (taking the "ground" on 3 points).
David, I’m in the uk. I have just bought a oceanis 35 lifting keel and I’m trying to find information on the internet but there is very little. Wondered which boats you’ve owned ?
@@chrisdickinson1762 Just saw your comment today. My first boat was a Jaguar 22, built under licence from Catalina in the US. (Surprisingly they are still produced today- mine was old when I bought it 15 years ago). It had a somewhat crude swing keel which, in the upward horizontal positing still lived below the hull so would not take the ground and remain comfortably upright as the rudder also lifted. The second and in some ways favourite was a Superseal 26 and the keel was a daggerboard design lifting vertically into a keel box which was full height from hull to coachroof. The rudder also swung up so it would take the ground quite safely (same way as Southerlies). My current boat is a Jeanneau & uses a swing keel which is housed within a heavy cast Iron keel stub which I suspect is not dissimilar to yours however I think your "box" has winged profile for stability on the ground and some added righting through the water. The 2 points I think are worth mentioning are as follows: my boat suffers when taking the ground on sand or any loose surface if there is a current past the rudders because there are no "boots" to stop them digging in and if the current is strong it created a bit of a vortex effect sucking the sand out. This can cause the boat to tip! 2) I believe the Beneteau mechanism for lifting the keel is a screw/worm gear rather than just pulleys, that means if you do ground while underway the keel is prevented from freely swinging up so I would suggest retracting it before you go into any shallows.
@@davidtilley2168 thanks for the reply, yes i think your Jeanneau is a similar design. Your right my keel box has a winged profile, however i think (not confirmed yet and i may be wrong) the worm drive lifts a wire lanyard which would allow the keel to lift if it took the ground forward. Ill update you on that after iv inspected it next. I’m not really expecting to take the ground but I’m looking forward to anchoring in more shallows. I’m trying to research the maintenance program for the beneteau lifting keel but there’s zero on the internet and its not even mentioned in the owners manual. Im going to look at inspecting the worm drive and greasing it. I’m looking forward to experimenting points of sail with the keel in different positions. My oceanis is a 2015. What’s your Jeanneau?
David your correct it is a solid worm drive rod connected to the keel so there’s no forgiving if you take the ground
Всё ясно и хорошо рассказано. Спасибо.
Completely useless.