Trans Rights and Gender Identity with Kathleen Stock
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- Опубліковано 26 чер 2024
- What happens when public policy meets the complex world of modern gender identity? Our guest today is Kathleen Stock, Ph.D., a former professor of philosophy at the University of Sussex, author of the critically-acclaimed "Material Girls," and an Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) awardee. Kathleen joins host John Tomasi to navigate the often-tense intersection of trans rights, gender identity, and academic freedom. Despite facing protests, security threats, and professional challenges, Kathleen steadfastly advocates for open inquiry and reasoned debate.
Today, John and Kathleen discuss the controversial landscape of transgender issues. Kathleen criticizes the medicalization of gender questioning and the societal pressure it places on individuals. She explains how academic and societal frameworks have rapidly evolved with the influence of activism, particularly examining the ramifications for single-sex spaces and public policies.
In This Episode:
• Criticism of the medicalization of gender questioning
• The societal impact of Stonewall’s policy changes and the Gender Recognition Act
• Challenges faced by Kathleen in professional settings due to her views
• Debates over the inclusion of trans women in single-sex spaces and sports
• The role of free speech and reason in academic discourse
• Concerns for the future of universities and academic freedom
Follow Kathleen on X here: x.com/Docstockk
Check out her book Material Girls: a.co/d/02sKzGz9
About Kathleen:
Kathleen Stock is a contributing writer at UnHerd and a co-director of The Lesbian Project. She is the author of Material Girls: Why Reality Matters for Feminism (Little Brown 2021) and Only Imagine: Fiction, Interpretation and Imagination (Oxford University Press 2017). Until 2021, she was a Professor of Philosophy at Sussex University. In the last few years, she has written for UK national publications on a range of issues, especially on sex, gender, and women's rights. In 2024, she was highly commended for her UnHerd columns at the UK Press Awards; in 2022, she was voted World’s Top Thinker in Prospect Magazine. She was awarded an Officer of the Order of the British Empire for services to higher education in 2020.
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A crying shame what Sussex did to this academic.
It’s now happening the other way around. A collegiate was chased out of her Colorado college by witch hunters and she will study in the UK in the fall. This is having a huge impact on our best, brightest and most empathetic.
IMHO, wokery/genderqueer and islamism are two sides of the same coin;
but pple are at a loss to know exactly what's going on;
GAY NOT QUEER
Kathleen Stock and Helen Joyce have become my most inspirational thinkers.
Me too ... both are measured and kind.
💯
Yes, and even though is injustice towards women and girls is driving me up the wall, they are both so cal, logical and measured in their responses to the absolute insanity we are all facing from the TRA‘s!
I have huge respect for both 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
@@lynnm6413 Absolutely! Their courage is without equal and they way the comport themselves in the face of such hate and vitriol is why I believe that, eventually, reason and civility will prevail. Madness is like a fire; it burns through everything in its path but vanishes the moment there's no more fuel.
Helen is , Stock lives in a lesbian bubble , anyone who suggest that a child can actually have two mothers is as delusional as those who say men can be women ….
She's very decent and likeable. Very sad to hear how the mob went after her.
And what a dishonourable thing for that young man Kass to do, be the host, take her out for a meal, introduce her to the debate then just as she’s beginning to finally feel a little less threatened under all the frightening circumstances, he turns on her in the nastiest, most sadistic way possible. I hope he remembers the rest of his life and hangs his head in shame, though from his smug face, the reverse is likely to be true. His parents must be so proud.
When she was a child… and now, my heart goes out to her and I stand beside her 110%!
The same mob that has now been so easily turned against the Jews.
I'm always struck by Dr Stock's calm and reason in the face of this relentless onslaught. Long may she prosper.
Thank you Kathleen, you were the first person I saw publicly speak on this topic at a time where it seemed taboo to do so, and you spoke so much sense it became the key to me waking up to this insanity that is the trans ideology. I applaud your candor and courage
@@clairepriceartist there's no such thing as trsns urology. That's a term made up by the right wing religious nutjobs.
Something I’ve noticed about the detractors of Kathleen and others like JKR, is that they seemingly deliberately misconstrue their words. Any comment that starts with ‘I feel like she’s REALLY saying…’ Is a typical as a example. They turn everything into a dogwhistle that doesn’t actually exist.
Strawmanning
Ideologs do not care about evidence and reason
As OilliePerach say: Straw manning. It's a well known thoroughly dishonest method of communication typically used by identitarians to misrepresent their opponents arguments. It worked quite well for them between 2014-2020, much less so these days as more and more people have wised up to it.
Typical of the mid to far left.
Untrue. JKR policies would if implemented mean that i would be unable to enter a number of medical services that i need . Normally these would just be accessed by women & jkr would specifically exclude me on the basis of my genetic sex not medical needs.Please tell me how this is not sexist , bigoted and misandry . Would men decide ever to exclude women on the basis of sex only from any medical services that they usually alone access ? Would that be tolerated even to discuss the possibility of men excluding women ? These women have the same extreme positions. Where there is sport yes it is unfair to allow trans in women sport yet these same women push for equity for women where the same capacity is not there as police, etc. Separate protected sex competion's for a game of intellect like chess but the demand equity for CEOs , STEM etc double standards all round . Cannot compete in the same comps in darts but demand equity in police. military . Please explain
Wonderful woman,sees clearly and speaks sense. Sussex ought to beg her forgiveness.
How about we don’t tell people, ‘You’re right to think you’re born in the wrong body, mutilate yourself with my blessing, and I’ll go along with the fiction that you’ve changed sex’? How about we say, ’You’re mistaken to think you’re born in the wrong body. Your body is you. You’re beautiful, good, and loveable just as you are. We’re glad that none of us can change sex, because we love you now as the whole person you are, body, mind, and spirit. You have a difficult condition called gender dysphoria, but people have recovered from this without self-harming and with our support so can you’?
Exactly how this should be handled.
Instead outsiders get involved and push parents away and brainwash young people to physically ruin themselves.
It should be a crime to harm others by mutilating the body.
The way we communicate clearly and rationally seems to have gone out the window.
G/D is also a stand in for a type of person who simply fits much better living as the opposite sex, it's easier & less stressful. Gender dysphoria is just ONE component of the problem and has been an accepted TRIGGER to allow transition for many to transition, also allows access to heterosexual men that every transsexual i know prefers.
This has never been about "the wrong body" that is only a vague some what descriptor for others to try and comprehend it and TRAs have pushed it as literal which gender ideology does also.
This below is quite accurate but of course Dr Cantor wants everyone to live outright as homosexual.
ua-cam.com/video/q3Ub65CwiRI/v-deo.html
“Research shows that at least 75 percent of patients with gender dysphoria have other psychiatric problems. In the group of children and young adults, autism, eating disorders, self-harm behavior and abuse are common. For all these conditions there is evidence-based treatment. Given such, gender dysphoria often disappears, as it is usually secondary to these conditions.
Since gender dysphoria often is secondary to psychiatric conditions for which there is evidence-based treatment and gender-corrective therapy for adolescents lacks scientific support, all gender-corrective therapy for patients younger than 25 years should be discontinued.” 29
- Sven Román MD
This agenda is littered with ABUSE. Pediatric clinics across the globe have noted exponentially higher rates of preexisting mental health and neurodevelopmental diagnoses among young people requesting gender identity services. Yet it was found that for parents who knew the content of their child’s evaluation, 71.6% reported that the clinician did not explore issues of mental health, previous trauma, or any alternative causes of gender dysphoria before proceeding and 70.0% report that the clinician did not request any medical records before proceeding.
We need to stop telling 12-year-olds that they were born wrong, that they are right to reject their own bodies and feel uncomfortable with their own skin. We need to stop telling children that puberty is an option. That they can choose what kind of puberty they will go through just as they can choose what clothes to wear or music to listen to. Puberty is a rite of passage to adulthood, not a disease to be mitigated.
@@DebraJammis Thank you for this important information. Let's hope people in the Labour party read this before their proposed ideological ban on the use of science-based psychotherapy to treat gender dysphoria.
You are appreciated Professor Stock.
Inspirational, courageous, an intellect I can only dream of and such a calm, polite persona. Her knowledge of this topic is exceptional. Such a role model for women! I attended Sussex University for 6 years in the 80s…..their treatment of her was appalling and that her colleagues failed to support her shameful. A great interview Thank you 🇬🇧 oh and great interviewer
Thank you, Kathleen. It’s centering to listen to you speak clearly and calmly on this issue. I stumbled on a 10 minute clip that may be helpful to share with those who disbelieve that an intact male transwoman, repeatedly convicted of horrendous sexual violence, can be placed in a woman’s prison. It’s a video of the US Congress, interviewing a judicial nominee, posted by Forbes last month - you can find it on UA-cam by searching “all hell breaks in judiciary committee”. Please share it with Julie Bindel if you see fit. Thanks, Patty
Yes, I’ve shared that one about too.
Riley Gains was on Dave Rubin recently and stated in California 1600 men have applied for transfers to women’s prisons.
@@amandaelliott7953 It’s hard to believe that this is commonplace. The judge said she made her decision based on facts. She described him as sober and wholly female. He hadn’t harmed anyone in prison - that was when he was placed with other men. She felt that the prison board’s concern for women’s safety was overblown. So hard to see a female judge do this to other women.
@@River10081 I understand where you’re coming from.
I’m 51, a survivor of domestic abuse. I’ve been pointing these issues out to my older sisters for two years and they still don’t understand……
@@amandaelliott7953 Glad you made it through❤️ I do think that women need good male power to stand with us, the way that the Senator questioned the judge powerfully, to stand up to this threat to woman’s safety..
@@River10081 yes we do and I have one of those now.
I am a Finnish woman born in 1970's and I was never a girly girl - hated skirts and dresses - and had always lots of boys as my friends. In 1980's-1990's Finland that was not a thing.. Like the whole sex and gender was not a thing at all. My mom (born in 1940's) never wore make up, always had a short hair, mostly used pants and worked full time outside home and none of that was a thing. I think most of my friends had mothers like that. Now suddenly a man who wears a dress and likes to put make up on his face has become the norm for a "woman" and a woman who doesn't do that is then labled as "non-binary" or maybe even a "trans".. Like WTF has happened?? This poisonous idelogy has invaded Finland too - and just like anywhere else the univerisites and all the places where leftists have ruling positions it is the oppinion everyone should have. All though I have never been a very feminine girl/woman - and I definitely did not like how my body developed through my teenage years getting breasts and wider hips - I still have never ever thought I was not a girl or that I was a boy.. I just felt like a boyish girl. And that was totally fine then. I really do not understand who really benefits of this "new world" other than some fanatic activists and men who want to invade women's spaces.
I'm in Finland as well and I still hope the medical field at least retains some science-based constraints here....
It's not about 'trans' really...that's the proxy. It IS about coercion, manipulation, and power
Sure! The aim is just to confuse people's minds so that they not anymore know who they are and which part is the head and which part the tail..
Correct. It uses DEI, minorities and "social justice" as a shield and a hammer. BTW the next thing to be sued is DEI on steroids called Bridge. Look it up.
A man who wear a dress is a cross dresser for sexual fantasy or Thomas Another example clearly a man. look at blair white for reference of what trans are. Blair white agree children going on blocker is wrong.
Kathleen Stock, Helen Joyce, Maya Forstatter, Kelly Jay Keen (Posie Parker), Dr Hilary Cass, JK Rowling ... Thank you for courage to stand against the aggression, the vitriol and the malice of power grabbers. 🎀🏆
KS always worth listening to.
As a psychologist who's done a couple of thousand comprehensive pych evals during my career, I will not have anything to do with an eval for someone who needs clearance to proceed with transitioning. A friend who is similarly highly qualified did one and found himself professionally attacked because he identified contraindications for proceeding with the transition. There is an industry of medical professionals and support people who want the appearance of good practices, but in fact, they just want a credentialed person to approve regardless of the suitability and best interests of the patient. Since this happened with one friend who conducted such an evaluation, I've asked a few other friends in the field if they'd accept that work. So far, no one wants to touch it for fear of the personal and professional repercussions if they found an examinee unsuitable to proceed.
What is a “psych evaluation” anyway?
@@64bluegrass Takes seconds to Google it.
As a psychotherapist I was asked to do the therapy to recommend patients transitions in the 1980’s. I refused. I would not have felt ok about recommending it. One patient I saw was delusional and believed he had to change sex because of a sin his mother committed. He had been put on hormones. I wrote a letter to the doctor and explained the patient was psychotic and should not have been put on hormones. I never got a response.
More recently, a therapist was murdered by her patient for delaying in writing the recommendation. This is a very disturbed population in general. I am retired and I am glad I retired before things escalated to the situation we have now. Transgender activists promote rage and bullying now.
As a ‘professional’ you have a duty to ‘challenge’ someone before they undertake life-changing procedures. That’s what ‘acting in the client’s best interests’ means. If their ideas can’t stand up to a few difficult questions then they probably need to go away and have a bigger think about what they want.
I would leave that situation. This not science, so what is it?
I love love love this courageous, intelligent woman. Long may her voice be heard loud and clear. Shame on those who have tried to silence her.
Kathleen Stock is wonderful. Thanks for the interview 🙂
The trans debate should be seen through the perspective of narcissism. The only thing that matters is what I feel. If you see it through that perspective, the whole phenomenon of adults acting like toddlers and glueing themselves to the floor is not so strange. Narcissism is often caused by neglectful parenting, and therefore, a child's need for attention from a parent are not met. In Western society parenthood, especially amongst the professional classes, is often seen as secondary to establishing a good career. Could it be that the growth in trans identity is as a result of parents failing to give their children the proper love and attention when they were growing up?
“Research shows that at least 75 percent of patients with gender dysphoria have other psychiatric problems. In the group of children and young adults, autism, eating disorders, self-harm behavior and abuse are common. For all these conditions there is evidence-based treatment. Given such, gender dysphoria often disappears, as it is usually secondary to these conditions.
Since gender dysphoria often is secondary to psychiatric conditions for which there is evidence-based treatment and gender-corrective therapy for adolescents lacks scientific support, all gender-corrective therapy for patients younger than 25 years should be discontinued.” 29
- Sven Román MD
This agenda is littered with ABUSE. Pediatric clinics across the globe have noted exponentially higher rates of preexisting mental health and neurodevelopmental diagnoses among young people requesting gender identity services. Yet it was found that for parents who knew the content of their child’s evaluation, 71.6% reported that the clinician did not explore issues of mental health, previous trauma, or any alternative causes of gender dysphoria before proceeding and 70.0% report that the clinician did not request any medical records before proceeding.
We need to stop telling 12-year-olds that they were born wrong, that they are right to reject their own bodies and feel uncomfortable with their own skin. We need to stop telling children that puberty is an option. That they can choose what kind of puberty they will go through just as they can choose what clothes to wear or music to listen to. Puberty is a rite of passage to adulthood, not a disease to be mitigated.
Mental health in transgender and gender-nonconforming youth retrospectively between 2006 and 2022 and found that these youths had three to 13 times the mental health conditions of their cisgender counterparts,” said the study’s lead author, Tracy A. Becerra-Culqui, Ph.D., M.P.H., of the Kaiser Permanente Southern California Department of Research & Evaluation
0.001% of people are born without an anus. Does that prove the anus is not a normal human organ? Of course not. Because that minuscule number of anomalies does not define a population. The reality is 99.5% of humans will match their physical anatomy with their gender performance. That 0.5% is statistically insignificant. People who suffer from gender identity disorder also suffer from other mental health conditions like depression, anxiety, substance abuse, self-harm, suicidal thoughts, personality disorders and autism. These problems do not resolve with gender reassignment. In fact hormones and body mutilation deal only very superficially with what is often a very deep psychosocial problem that doesn’t lend itself to quick technological fixes.
I agree,but that is not the only answers -we have had internet addiction for about 26 years!
@@DebraJammis Very agree.
I don't really think so, there's always been neglectful parents. And while there's always been a small number of people yearning to fit in with the opposite sex, this society-wide obsession with gender ideology is new.
If anything today's parents are way more indulgent than prior generations. So no, I think it's something else. But yes I do see a strong vein of narcissism in the new gender-obsession movement.
And (not saying you don't realise it, but I just like to make it clear as often as possible) - not all trans people support the new gender ideology, many oppose it and hate being associated with its confused and damaging messaging. For those living with life-long gender dysphoria and taking steps to alleviate it by leaning into stereotypes of the opposite sex in various ways, but who are realists about themselves, and respectful of others, not wishing to impose themselves anywhere that would make others uncomfortable - these people deserve as much respect as anyone.
@Amy-ky5wr I understand your point about today's parents being more indulgent, but what kind of indulgence? I say this because when I was bringing up my son, often carers and clubs were the order of the day. I also ran sports clubs when dropping off your kid was often a convenience/necessary. Kids were also much more in organised structured environments of their own age groups than just running free with kids of all ages than when I was a kid. Yes, I am that old.
Then, of course, there is the internet where kids spend hours picking up all kinds of ideas.
Emotional neglect from the important care giver, especially in early childhood can have lasting deverstating effects.
In the old days parents also got more support from family and community. It takes, as they say, a village to raise a child.
I brought up my son on my own with little support while trying to earn an income, juggling things was difficult and money tight. He didn't want to change gender, but he did suffer from depression, especially when he went to university and became more isolated.
I don't know if you have come across Gabor Mate, Bessel van der Kolk, Peter Levine and Pete Walker. They write a lot about how complex trauma from childhood affects people throughout life.
My point about narcissism is just that is a wider reflection of the woke movement being just about how I feel, nothing else matters. No looking at scientific evidence, just I feel like I'm a woman so I am a woman, end of story.
I also don't deny that some people do know that they feel more comfortable as the opposite gender.
These issues are complex and also can be very individualistic.
My main objections to the woke movement, as with so much concerning them, is that they over simplify complex issues and shut down discussion.
They are very totalitarian in the name of equality and diversity. The communists in the 20th century were exactly the same. I lived in the former Soviet Union where they maintained they were doing the best for everyone, and if you didn't understand that you were mad and needed to be sent to a psychiatric institution or gulag.
Freedom of Speech has been under pressure in the West from the left in a way I never thought I would see in my lifetime. Heretics are persecuted in a way that is similar to how Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic Church.
Great interview.
I wear mens clothes now but I’ve never think I am a man, find them more comfortable. I always have been a Tom boy and you can do anything you want whatever sex you are as long as you don’t hurt anyone else. I was in the military for 12 yrs, had kids, rode motorcycles, bikes, do diy, make furniture. You don’t need to change sex for anything. I am now over 60 and loving my retirement. Wouldn’t change a thing but it’s scary to think, would I have been persuaded to go down this route and ruin my life.
you wouldn’t have been “persuaded” to be trans. your experience has nothing to do with trans people, you’re just old ot of touch and you make it other peoples problem
So instead of sex change man should do all feminine things and be as girly as they want and society will accept that?? 😮 Like what you did?
@@Sherlock245 YES! i bartended in a gay bar in the early 80's. there were girly boys and macho men and everything in-between. i remember some VERY effeminate 'straight' guys hanging around because they didn't fit in anywhere else. if you are a woman that is 6'4" or a man that is 5'0" people may WANT to put you in a gay box, but that is on THEM. society doesn't "ACCEPT" differences. but just because "society" is uncomfortable doesn't mean people should Masquerade to "FIT IN".
@sherlock well, yes, they should be able to do that. As to society accepting it? Tbh, probably not, because it's generally not as accepted in the same way for men.
Maybe changing that would've been/is a better route than getting everyone to question their sex if they don't conform.
Kathleen Stock is my hero. She gave me the strength to speak up against gender ideology in the arts. I paid the price, but it was worth it. Truth matters.
😇
Solidarity with Kathleen Stock and others fighting for women and reality.
Well worth a watch. Thanks Kathleen.
Lila Thomas tied Riley Gaines...but they gave the medal to Thomas for the optics. Thank you Kathleen for having the courage and disposition to fight these necessary fights.
Thomas is a man massive body built.
Riley actually beat Thomas, it amazes me how often people get this wrong.
William Thomas!
Kathleen Stock is a calm reasonable courageous intelligent critical thinker who sees straight through the current ‘trans trend’. Magdalen Berns, was equally courageous and intelligent who offered the fire of women’s resistance, together they ignited the voices of women across the globe. I have so much gratitude to them both. 👏👏👏👏👏
I'm all for Kathleen (and Helen) getting those knighthood. Superlative and clear-headed thinkers should never be out of style.
Such a clear, reasoned, rational speaker. And not a single person has ever landed a good point on her. Because she's right.
Dr Stock is a wonderful and inspiring human being. Thank you both for this interview.
Why has the money-grubbing opportunism of Stonewall not been called out for what it is. A charity’s main aim should be to obviate its raison detre not find devious ways to perpetuate itself.
Alas, the whole "LGBTQ " thing has become big business now. Hence why we have pride month. A whole month to profit. It used to be a weekend.
I like this woman, and admire her so much !
That was terrific. Thank you both so much.
Best thing I learned studying philosophy was that people can reason in all sorts of different ways and to all sorts of conclusions, with all sorts of justifications and we are richer when we make space for different ideas to be heard, and when we learn how to challenge and critique our reasonings and grow our understandings about the world, respectfully and without attacking each other. Kathleen you do this so well.
I wish we taught philosophy and critical thinking to little kids in school. I didn't even really know what it was til I was in my 30s... Glad I found out!
Brilliant interview with the extremely brave & intelligent Kathleen Stock 👏 👏 👏
Very real and refreshing. Let's save our children from chemically castrating themselves. Well-done for your common sense and candid honesty.
Outstanding person, fine interview.
Keep speaking up Kathleen Stock- your voice,alongside JK Rowling,Kellie Jay Keen,Helen Joyce among others. We need your voices to keep reality alive and preserve children’s lives and their health. I really like the way you refer to society as ‘so-called progressive’, when in all actuality it is regressive,perpetuating misogyny.
Keep on speaking up ❤🙏❤️
Dr Stock should be made a Dame for services to reality! Always intelligent, measured and clear in her views on this divisive issue.
An incredible conversation between two philosophers who really know how to get to the heart of each and every issue regarding sex and gender identity. Thank you!
Kathleen epitomises beautifully reasoned discourse, she’s a real role model.
What a brilliant discussion - thank you to both of you. I admire and support Kathleen Stock's clarity and courage.
Kathleen is so brave and the vast majority of women who believe in biology, thank her
Dont forget Riley Gaines and JK rowling
Being trans or a trans ally does not mean you don't believe in biology. That is straw-manning
@@mariannehavisham8323 Yes and no. Trans activists and their allies do not believe in biology.
@@mariannehavisham8323 Well you'd never know!!
Kathleen's breathy, "wow" at the mention of Iris Murdoch's name immediately sent me to find out who that is. I now own her first novel and can't wait to get into it! Sometimes, technology is pretty fabulous.
you won't look back ...
Glad this episode satisfied your curiosity
As I comment in every Kathleen Stock interview, podcast, debate I listen to and/or watch, I have a huge, massive girl crush on her. ❤ Huge.
Me too! 😅I'm just at aw. I'd have loved being her student.
I love Kathleen.
Clear and concise language as always from Kathleen Stock. The refinement of accuracy of how we speak about this subject is of the utmost importance. Helen Joyce is also brilliant. I hear too many people being too fuzzy with their language, and this can play into the hands of those we need to defeat in this argument. Take stock 😎 and learn something from these two sharp shooters. This all needs to be eradicated asap, for the safety and sanity of the women and girls in our lives. Harm my daughter and it’s war. That’s what men are for right ? 😂
Thank you, Kathleen! You're obviously a great lecturer, and students at U of Sussex are missing out.
Well done Kathleen, your belief in reality is an anchor for thousands of us to cling to, at a time reality is dismissed in favour of a tiny few wishful thinkers.
Thank you!
I'm just flabbergasted as a 56 year old gay man at the idea of this occuring! I think back to 1977, when me and two other girls were playing Charlie's Angels on the playground... in today's world, you know damn good and well that some well meaning, virtue signaling teacher would try to tell me I was trans because I was pretending to be Kate Jackson on the playground!
I always pretended to be her too! She was the more sassy Angel.😂 I used to like pretending to be six million dollar man too. 😂
No, they wouldn't have and there are no teachers telling you. You're trans or telling anybody that they're trans for that matter. You're delusional. Do actual research into it and see why all they obvious pho ic people keep getting exiled from the medical community ITS BECAUSE THEYRE WRONG.
Woman: adult human female.
Will listen tonight .. I do feel the tide is turning .. enough is enough
I clicked on this title expecting the typical cringe alphabet propaganda and ended up staying for the whole convo. Interesting discussion thank you!
The “honourable” idea as presented here doesn’t make sense to me. Even if you could depend on people being honourable ( when it’s already been demonstrated that you can’t - otherwise we wouldn’t need anti- doping rules), you would need an endless number of categories for different people and different amounts of medical interventions etc. As KS says, it comes back to just say men and women, keep the anti- doping rules and offer an open category if there’s an interest in that.
Thanks for an interesting podcast. I always enjoy KS. cheers
Thanks for listening
A great conversation. ❤
Aaaaaaannnnnddd subscribed. 👍🏻
Srsly, this is the most respectful, rational and calm explanation / defense of an idea once taken for granted.
Ms. Stock is a voice of penetrating humanity. Thank you Mr. Tomasi. Excellent conversation.
What rights do they want that everyone else already has. What they want is special treatment and privileges like an entitled brat. And not take punishment for their actions
I don't have a 'gender identity'. I am a male. I feel the way I feel, and I am male. Some people may have body dysmorphia, but that can apply to gender bits or any other bits on your body.
It's just a biological reality, just like your height, the colour of your eyes, your shoe size... None of those are an "identity", they are just what I happen to be.
I think body dysmorphia is somewhat similar to gender dysphoria but it is a different thing -you could have both -eating disorders are quite prevalent in the trans community
@@mariannehavisham8323 Some people may feel like a dog, or feel like Jesus, but normal people just are. I don't feel like a male, I am a male and I feel like myself. If I feel more comfortable looking like a woman, I'm a man that feels more comfortable looking like a woman. I'm not 'really' a woman.
@@TheVigilante2000why do you confuse dysmorphia with dysphoria? someone tried to correct you and you flat out ignored them
@@babs_babs ok, Gender dysphoria an unpleasant mood state. Including depression, anxiety, discontent, irritability, and unhappiness. Still not an identity, just unhappy you're not the other sex. I get it. I'm unhappy I'm not less ugly, but I've learn to live with it.
I found the filming of this made it oddly hard to watch. The way they're sitting almost side on and not really facing eachother, the way the window takes up more of the shot than the people, the fact I could see people moving around in the window. But as usual I could still listen to Kathleen all day!
Excellent.
Well said Kathleen. I didn’t know you were so tall! Thanks for standing tall. (From a 1970s Sussex grad - it was all good fun then).
I imagine Kathleen Stock is somewhat weary of stating what is the blooming obvious to most people. Nevertheless she is to be congratulated for her philosophical and psychological clarity.
Missing to date however from professor Stock’s public commentary has been an address to the cultural gobbledygook of academics such as “distinguished” professor Judith Butler. What about it professor Stock?
You aren't "born in a body", you ARE your body. Unless you are religious and believe in souls.
Sure, but I also think that many religious people who believe in souls do not believe that a soul can be in a wrong body. Like buddhists who believe in reincarnation. They still believe that the body you got in this life is the right one for you now - like there is a reason why you ended up being this person in this body in this time..
@@kpt002 Oh sure. I wasn't suggesting that to believe in a soul means you must also believe you can be born in the wrong body. I'm only saying that in order to believe one can be born in the wrong body, one must necessarily believe in some sort of soul, some sort of "spiritual essence", whatever you want to call it, something that is "you" but is seperate from your body. Yet the people who believe in this sort of "gendered soul", often claim not to be religious, some even claim it is a scientific concept.
You are more than your body.
@@pwalk4160 That's a matter of belief. It's fine if you believe in a soul. It's not a provable fact.
@@wjdeoliveira3809 Just like "anything that's not a provable fact doesn't exist" is a belief. And I didn't say anything about a soul in the first place. The very fact that you don't have total control over "your" body, and that you say "my body", points to something more.
I admire Kathleen immensely. But not just because of the content of what she says. Because of her commitment to truth and clarity, and to intellectual humility. Her commitment to the concept of rational discussion and calm debate, the thrashing out of ideas while respecting all participants, as a means for our society to move closer to truth and clarity about things.
How a person with such a quietly spoken and shy sort of demeanour, especially one who is open and willing to discuss ideas and admit if she's wrong and adopt new ideas that make sense, has attracted such a such a large yet vapid protest movement spouting boisterous vitriol, is amazing. But I don't think it reflects badly on her at all. It's just the highschool bullies, who always were devoid of substance, all growed up now. And maybe a few sheep-like NPCs following them.
Hiya Kathleen you are a fabulous, kind, humane human being, who genuinely tries to help people. The hatred you have been subjected to is so unjust it makes my blood boil. As you said, you don't have many issues with trans people but with trans activists and they are an entirely different thing altogether. Trans activists are evil and are not interested in helping anyone, least of all children who are always the most vulnerable in society. The bullying tactics they use elicits fear out of far too many of your colleagues and probably leaves you feeling isolated but as long as there are people like yourself and Jordan Peterson around who speak the truth then the activist will not win. Every victory you win slows down their progress and helps to keep children safe. Not very long ago the mutilation of children would be considered a most heinous crime and it will be again. When enough people come to their senses or your colleagues find their courage, the monstrous ideology behind this will be put under a spotlight as will the 'people' funding the trans activist movement and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes when it does. Nor would I want to be one of the butchers cutting bits off kids. I know a high percentage of teenage girls have problems with self image during puberty and that is something that has always happened. But now in this day it has become an extremely dangerous time for young women with 'teachers' asking them leading questions and guiding impressionable young minds down a very dark path. What used to be referred to as a tom boy can now lead to real tragedy and those guidance teachers also have a lot to answer for although some of them may actually think they are helping. Lets face it, being a fellow Scot, you'll know most school teachers are thick as mince. Tavistock was shut down when enough people became aware of it. The Cass report and the work you do all help shine a light and for all the intimidation that trans activists and Stonewall are guilty of......................as of today twenty three thousand people have watched this video and virtually all of us are behind you and we are all talking. The Internet is a two edged sword, unlike mainstream media, it cannot be controlled and once the information is out there, it spreads. Whilst they try and curb free speech they will ultimately loose, they just haven't thought it through to a logical conclusion. Equality is something our ancestors strived for and attained. We have had it for many decades and a society that has attained that level of freedom will not give it up. Although both main parties haven't been working for the British Public for about three decades there is light at the end of the tunnel in the Reform Party. Though there is a hell of a lot to be put right the will to do so is growing and the flag that guarantees all our rights, the Union Flag will be dominant again replacing the pride flag and those malign forces that hide behind it hurling abuse. Thank you Kathleen......
No question I would have considered transitioning in the ‘80’s had we had today’s culture - NOT because I thought I was a boy, but because I was a bit of a “tomboy” who liked to play with my brother and his friends (Nerf football, climbing trees, etc.) I also hated the sexualization that came along with becoming an adult woman (eg. porn, which has only gotten more debasing) and because I resented being put down for being too intelligent! “Why can’t you be more simple and sweet and loving?” Sooo offensive.
you would not have gone through with a transition, don’t kid yourself
@@d4hd4h How many stories from detrans women do you need to hear? Oh right, you never bother to listen to them.
Danke!
Thanks for your support!
Our identity is, to put it in Kant’s terms, always pathological and bespeaks heteronomy rather than autonomy.
I love this lady she is talking so much sense and yet there are so many ignorant people that won’t listen and think about the answers she is giving the LGBTQ’s people need to learn about what is going on in the gay community and stop destroying women and their rights as well as the children she is explaining it so well why won’t they listen.
lgbt people aren’t destroying women or their rights.
People change in many ways throughour their lives.
Its about accepting who you are and getting help with negative thinking.
A young person will not necessarily feel the same in 2 yrs time.
Lifes experiences change us whether we like it or not.
But to make physical changes that have massive impacts on our bodies, is not going to change the way we feel inside.
Its all very mythical, like reading fairytales or scarey tales.....and trying to run away from something you never can.
Embrace yourself or get help to learn how to.
The mind is so adaptive and complex.
Far easier to alter thoughts than to change sexes and then in a few years, regret doing it and having medical problems for the rest of your life.
I can talk, I had a total hysterectomy at a young age due to it being painfully swollen with disease.
Now i have major health problems that I never knew would happen.
I'd never promote any hormonal supression, unless to kill cancers.
Hormones keep the body working like a clock.
Such a great response and so very true. From birth to old age, we grow, change and adapt. As a gay man in his fifties, I've gone through so much that even though I'm e same person as I was when I was young, I'm a completely different person who's evolved because of life. All of this trans gender ideology worries me for today's young people as they're being taken down a dangerous route.
Dr Kathleen Stock* The title needs amending :)
It’s weird to see our most sacred and oppressed beings now being pushed into the oppressor category. I’m 55 and my entire life Jewish people were the most vulnerable, and LGB people were the most in need to protection. Now many of these two groups of people have been shoved into right wing groups as others have risen up as the most oppressed. Maybe the answer is to celebrate victories instead of continuing to look for the most oppressed and victimized beings.
Maybe the answer is to stop using identity politics to automatically categorize people as left-wing and right-wing.
The most Vulnerable beings on earth is Animals!
Not quite sure what you're getting at, you've not been able to clearly express your position, unfortunately. No idea if you're in general support of or general opposition to the discussion in the video.
@@beverly9 Gee, ya think?
@@Amy-ky5wr I’m sorry you’re incapable of understanding subtext. Not my problem. Sometimes I forget how stupid most people are. The person two people above you got the point very well. The person after that kinda got it too. But you - you’re different.
She's right - REALITY MATTERS and we need to get over this nonsense because of its impact on women and children and safeguarding. Being female is not a costume and not a feeling ... grrrr
7:15 Let's go!
Very good discussion although I am unable to pinpoint where "gender" is precisely defined. Perhaps it isn't. If not, why is there a discussion of concepts that are predicated on it - such as "gender reassignment" or "gender identity"?
In her book, KS lays out several extant gender definitions, depending on perspective. Honestly, if you want to understand all conceptual angles really clearly, check out her book.
@@cliffkastmusic Yes. I have her book. I also have the chapter where she unpacks the various 5 non synonymous iterations of how "gender" is defined.
My point was that the discussion does not signal in which sense or senses "gender" is used.
If there are more than two genders or sex where are they then ?
With all due respect, this isn't going to stop under a Labour government, and KS is still going to vote for them.
This all has happened on Tory watch.
@@upnorth2421Labour started it with the Equality Act. The Tories have finally woken up and started to row back on the madness. In sharp contrast, Labour will give it the green light all over again.
As much as I bemoan the influence and effects of gender ideology today, I think it would be pointless to be a single-issue voter on this. And besides, I don't think either Labour or the Tories will realistically do anything substantial and meaningful unless society starts to demand it. I think Labour have a slightly greater tendency towards accountability and would like a different party to finally be in power.
@@lavienestpasunlongfleuvetr2559 I am hoping that they will have seen what happened to Sturgeon and the SNP in Scotland and take note. Starmer has now stated that a woman is an adult human female (well done!) and they have said they will follow the guidance from the Cass Review. There are too many rising voices that will hopefully stifle this nonsense. I feel extremely political homeless with regard to this matter. The Greens won't get my vote and let's face it, the Tories are toast and Reform ... well, that's really quite unpalatable. And this is where we are ... I wonder if Private Frazer from Dad's Army is right "We're doomed" ...
My head says vote Labour as I know they’ll do better for vulnerable people than the Tories, but my heart wants to spoil my ballot paper because I’m so angry about how they’ve handled this issue. fyi- Kathleen Stock said yesterday she would vote Labour.
Then don't vote Labour, this confusion will just get worse.
Possibly, but I believe "this confusion" has occurred during 14 years of the Tories being in power.
Vote Reform for change.
As a lifelong Liverpool fan, I’m offended. 😂
Your bit about the non-issue of being "mis-gendered" "Sir you don't belong here" "Yes I do" reminds me of the way "activists" of all types so often misrepresent the lives of the people they claim to speak for. I also like the bit about "being a lifetime Liverpool fan" as a real identity you acquire over time, not something you are born as.
I think the entire sixties obsession with "finding your authentic self" leads us astray. I tried out various identities in my twenties and some of those false starts helped me uncover it over time after experience...not as a fourteen year old. In the US we have drivers education classes and sex education classes, but the driver's ed classes usually start a year before we expect students to start driving. We don't talk to elementary school students about driving, let alone ask them what type of car they want to drive in ten years. For most of us the type of car we drive and the type of sex we have are constrained choices based on locally available options.
She should openly promote the Party of Women and send a message to Labour.
I hear again and again I didn’t like being a girl, nor did I being a girl can suck especially when your body starts to betray you and boys suddenly want to be boyfriends. I LOVE being a woman it took til my mid twenties to love being me. How can boys and girls be encouraged to wait until they know what it means rather than being terrified of the half way stage.
why the hell do you confuse clinical gender dysphoria with some cis girls feelings weird around puberty?
when someone says they struggle with a major depressive disorder, do you yap about how sad you were when your pet hamster died? it’s the same vibe
@@babs_babs I don’t the Tavistock did don’t confuse feelings with facts read the reports
I like Kathleen Stock. I own her book. I think she is a sane and rational voice in this discussion. This stuff she says starting at somewhere around 47:30 is all wrong. To paraphrase “no one can be born in the wrong body”, “there is no test”, “it’s like being a fan of a Liverpool something another.”
There is an extremely rare medical condition in which people are gender incongruent. It is a lifelong condition that is present from birth. These people get lost in the current hysteria. They have innately female brain structures, that are sexually dimorphic at the level of individuals. Their brain takes a female pathway in a general sense. The brain and the body are sexually differentiated in the womb. It is dependent on hormone exposure or the lack thereof. The sexual differentiation of the brain and the body happen independently. If something atypical occurs with the hormone exposure in the brain, it can result in the body going down one sexual development pathway and the brain going down another.
These people will be born with innately female brain structures and male physiology. The atypical brain development results in the somatosensory cortex being mapped to a female body, but the person has male physiology. The brain will sense that something is wrong, when the person is a child and adult, and the person will have a conscious experience that they are in the wrong body. This conscious experience is accompanied by ceaseless, tormenting distress. It is all driven by primitive structures in the brain having a reaction to the person’s physiology.
This condition has nothing to do with gender norms or being gay or straight. It is not a flavor of the month or a phase. It is a lifelong condition of being. As I understand it, every single person in the original Dutch Model cohort of 55 kids was such a person. The incongruence between their basic brain structures and their physiology has to be resolved and you can’t reason with the brain. The body is mutable, however, to an extent that is often more than enough to dramatically reduce their constant, torturing distress, which they call dysphoria.
The first 2 minutes of the below video features such a person. This is how they start out in life. They have a naturally occurring conviction that they *are* the sex opposite their physiology that emerges in their earliest years. This child told her mom that she is a girl as soon as she was old enough to talk. She says she thought her mother already knew. This child has male physiology. Such people are somewhere around a 1 in 50,000 occurrence in the population. ua-cam.com/video/QD720mHFqW0/v-deo.htmlsi=6GDNilQYObgNpsCN
If this is all true then it should be the primary test for enabling medical transition. But even if true, medical transition is so choked with problems and unknowns it would be foolish to rule out other treatments.
@@JohnM-du8nvI agree with you on this being the appropriate test. There is no known and proven alternative treatment for such people. A lot has been tried since the 1950s. Medicine eventually gave up. I know of one alternative treatment that I believe has a huge chance of working. I aim to get it tested and tried.
@@investigationportal Sounds good!
I thought this was Tony Hawk by the thumbnail
TERF Alert!!!
I would like for once to hear what the gender critical apologists would do with the people who have already transitioned. I always hear the calls for the end of gender affirming care and the end of accepting trans people, but I never hear a word about where that leaves actual human beings who are trans.
As usual you hear what you want to hear and not what Kathleen said, she very plainly stated that adults could do what they want but she would like them to consider it carefully because of the implications of permanent body changes. No one is stating that anything has to be done about people who have already transitioned, they carry on with their life as usual.
@@user-jf3lo6ss2i actually, I didn’t hear anything that I wanted to hear. I also heard everything that she said.
A good question. What the NHS has already done: Those already on puberty blockers will continue but no prescriptions for new people. I think that will be modified over time but we need to root out the ideologues who are uncritically affirming this for children rather than supporting proper investigation. I believe HRT is still available for adults (correct me if I'm wrong). BTW: I would describe myself as gender critical but not an activist, not an extremist and are willing to listen and consider opposing views. Most people I know match my position on this.
The issue I imagine people had with the way you are talking about this, is you continually suggest or say outright that being trans is along the lines of a social contagion when the amount of transphobia and actual evidence that exists pushes the actual opposite effect.
Some people are born trans and nobody is pushing lesbians to be trans (any chance someone might be projecting?).. questioning your gender identity doesn’t have to be a negative thing and it can help us all understand the ways we exist in our society.
Sadly all this does it push TERF narratives and hateful perceptions
"Nobody is pushing lesbians to be trans"
Tell me, what are "trans lesbians"? How can a male, be lesbian? A male, attracted to females, is heterosexual, regardless of how he "identifies". A female who is attracted to other females only, is lesbian. If a female would sleep with males, she would no longer be lesbian... So, what are males who "identify" as "trans women" doing on lesbian dating sites, in lesbian spaces etc.?
There are gay, pansexual and bisexual trans people. This makes it sound like trans people are gay and identify as straight when they transition but that isnt true for lots of people
There are transwomen who claim to be lesbians and straight both, the first being attracted to women and the second attracted to men.
Kathleen "voting labour anyway" Stock
Like most people, then :(
Lesser of two evils. What's she supposed to do, spoil her ballot, vote Reform?
@@sosimple3585Either option would be better than actively supporting Labour.
@@sosimple3585as a woman I couldn’t do it. I just couldn’t vote labour. I would have to vote POW.
@@gabychats I sympathise. The only party that's openly against gender ideology is Reform, but my grandad fought against that lot in World War II...(and was a POW).
Good luck with your admitted drinking.
This, but sincerely.
talk about an ethnocentric viewpoint
certainly aren't going to use the insecure occidental's nonsense in our secular scientific literature, guessing she is trying to grift the abrahamics? 😂
What on earth are you even trying to say? As if any non-Western groups use chemicals and surgeries to make men into women or visa versa. "Trying to grift the abrahamics" -- I think you're trying (and failing) to sound clever.
@@L_Martin those of us that study humans using secular empirical evidence understand gender as a social construct. human populations have also been doing body modifications for millennia, including for cultural identity purposes (see groups like hijra)
quite closeminded to suggest a static identity bijection at birth to a reductionist and non-medical understanding of sexual reproductive role (the abrahamic gender system), and associated abrahamic influenced English vocabulary, is the only valid or correct way of expression
a better way to describe what the person in video is doing is "evaluating other peoples and cultures according to the standards of one's own culture"
it is not invalid for someone to be like that, it is pretty typical of these type of people. but they do not get to dictate the result of scientific findings, and we will not ignore statistically significant observed human behavior and identity because it bothers them or their deity....
@@RM-xr8lq Wow you really do type in word salad. Desperately trying to sound clever.
The hijra do not think of themselves as women, nor does the rest of the society. Dress however you like, wear makeup or don't, long hair or short. We agree, these are social signals about fashion and personality among other things. These changes to external appearance DO NOT make a man into a woman or visa versa, and none of the non-Western societies you care to point to pretend that can happen. Usually it is same-s* attracted males who are cast out of the Man Category for not adhering to the society's strict norms around masculinity.
Pretending Prof Stock is the one grifting? Lmao
bullshit
What tripe.
What is tripe? What she is saying, or what she is talking about?
Which bit, what did she get wrong?
Dude which bit threatened your reality?
What fantastic insight and such a great counter-argument to her points.
Looks like an autogynephile in the picture.
I love her!🤍
Been to Montrose many times! Beautiful town, beautiful part of Scotland 😍