ASIMOV vs HEINLEIN and the WINNER is ...
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- Опубліковано 30 лип 2024
- An in-depth look at the works, Hugo awards, Nebula awards, film adaptations, popularity and longevity of the two Grand Masters of Science Fiction, Isaac Asimov and Robert A. Heinlein. In an effort to determine which author's science fiction writings have better stood the test of time.
00:00 Intro
02:45 Production
04:10 Awards
09:18 Adaptations
11:56 Popularity
14:57 Longevity
17:09 A Winner?
I would vote for Heinlein.
I've read most of Heinlein, and a lot of Asimov. Most fun - to me - has been Heinlein.
Roger that one vote for Heinlein!
Asimov's epic mutton chop sideburns are the tie-breaker. ; )
Hah! Got you down for Asimov David.
@@GrammaticusBooks I should have mentioned that I really enjoyed your discussion. Thank you!
His sideburns are to him as the leather jacket is to the Fonz! 👍
Lot’s of people go for the Elvis Presley look. But when it comes to mutton chop sideburns, Elvis went for the Asimov look.😁
@@douginorlando6260 Especially during Elvis' Vegas years!
Larry Niven is under rated in terms of his Verne like engineering vision
Absolutely, I love Larry Niven. Especially his Ringworld novels.
Agreed.
Niven just about ties with Heinlein for my all-time number one slot. I particularly love the interesting and believable alien species he came up with, especially the Puppeteers. Although I wonder how much of the development of the Moties and the Fthp came from him or from Pournelle in their collaborations.
I haven't read their sci-fi collaborations but Lucifer's Hammer is a great disaster-from-on-high book.
@@OffRampTouristI love that book! As a writer, he is an outstanding world-builder... Except for Beowulf Shaeffer or Gil Hamilton his characters seem to fall a little flat
Heinlein. There's no comparison. His characters are fully realized people, his dialogue is spot on, his plots are timeless, realistic and relevant. Asimov's great but Heinlein is the Dean of Science Fiction for good reason.
One vote for Heinlein! Duly noted Missilotze!
In the original Foundation Trilogy, the actual order was
1. Foundation
2. Foundation and Empire
3. Second Foundation
Now I read these over 40 years ago, so I could be wrong, but that's the way I remember it.
You are correct Sir!
You are correct. “Second Foundation” was the final volume in the original trilogy. The trilogy follows the common formula, which was famously seen in George Lucas's original “Star Wars” trilogy, wherein the first installment sets the scene and points the audience toward the hoped for happy ending. However, by the end of the second much darker installment, the train has gone somewhat off the rails, setting us up for a heroic third installment where we finally arrive at the hoped for conclusion. I don't know … perhaps Asimov pioneered this formula.
Plus, they all came from stories published in Astounding in the late 1940s and very early 1950s. They are not exactly recent.
Originally they were not a trilogy. Published in sections in Astounding, they were re-cast as novels later.
@@tomenrico6199 Much of the plotting came from John Campbell, his editor at Astounding. Isaac was still a teenager at that stage...
Let me throw a wrench in here. I think H.G. Wells surpasses Asimov and Heinlein in production, adaptations, popularity and for awards, they weren't around at the time of Wells. In longevity I think Wells wins and will lap Asimov and Heinlein in the future. He wrote more than 50 novels, not to mention short stories, essays and letters. Brian Aldiss referred to Wells as the "Shakespeare of science fiction".
Tough to argue with that one Vintage! Good comments!
If choosing for U.S. only, that is a tough one as you have illustrated. I'd also consider Edgar Rice Burroughs. So no vote from me, but this is fun!
@@vintagesf He's a giant in the field as well. But I'm not sure I'd place ERB as a Science Fiction writer. He always struck me as more of a fantasy author with SciFi elements to his work. So many choices in this field. Perhaps I should have qualified my field to 'Golden Age' SciFi authors?
@@GrammaticusBooks Perhaps I’m reaching a bit. The title is Asimov vs Heinlein.
@@GrammaticusBooks If you ever do a Space Fantasy face off, Burroughs would get my vote.
My vote is for Heinlein as the better writer! by a hair.
Starship Troopers is popular for it's politics, not for his writing.
The movie is only good if one pretends like it has nothing absolutely at all to do with the book. Verhoeven admitted that he not only didn't finish the book, he hated what he read.
100%! The book Starship Troopers is actually quite dull. And Verhoeven did despise Heinlein! Good stuff BPuryea!
@@GrammaticusBooks I believe that you would find Marcus Aurelius's "Meditations" quite dull as well.
I have to disagree about _Starship Troopers_ , the book. I love it primarily for its writing; it's action, it's characters, and most of all for its world building, and not for its politics, which in truth don't amount to much, plotwise.
The "citizenship" aspect of it that everyone focuses on is really the least important part of the story. In-universe, it is mostly just a motivational plot device that sets Johnny Rico out onto his adventure. Real-world, it's just a bit of a thought experiment on the nature of who we should allow the responsibility of governing us. It was never meant, either in-story or out, to present a perfect society, and even Heinlein himself admitted that it probably would not work in real life as presented.
It was also the introduction of the concept of personal powered armor suits into SF, an important milestone all of its own. And it is considered the last of Heinlein's "juvenile" novels, meaning its target audience was teens, not adults. The level of writing and dialog reflects this.
In short, ST is a reasonably fast-paced adventure story about coming of age and learning responsibility against the backdrop of a futuristic war, with a bit of a pro-military* slant, and a pinch of political thought spice thrown in. It is both an exciting and a thoughtful read.
As for the film, I'm pretty much in agreement with you, although I personally find it difficult to call such an execrable "adaptation" good in any sense.
*Pro-military as in reflecting Heinlein's own fond memories of service, and his belief that the US needed to maintain a strong military presence at the height of the cold war. Despite what critics say, it was not particularly pro-militarism in general, and absolutely did not promote jingoism, fascism or anything like it.
@@davidh.4944 This is what makes America great, a healthy debate.
Yes, Heinlein did introduce a lot of very cool ideas in this book, as he did throughout his writing career.
I've read about half of Heinlein's canon, red his biography and have watched ever interview I can find on UA-cam. I have a good idea about what made the man tick because he was very transparent about it and he told us. Through his characters, through his plot devices, through his interviews, through his non fiction writing, through his interviews and through his biography.
The politics in Starship Troopers was the point he was driving home on the political/social channel, while wrapping it in a fun story. He did such a good job of it, your convinced that wasn't his goal. Believe me when I tell you, it most unapologetically and un-controversially was his goal.
Heinlein will never be known as a great writer of prose or a writer who told his stories through complex character development, Stranger in a Strange Land not with standing. What Heinlein was, however, was a great spinner of yarns.
My top 5 Heinlein books - in order
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Stranger in a Strange Land
Starship Troopers
Farnham's Freehold
Glory Road
@@davidh.4944well put!
error robot derives from the Czech word robota (“forced labour” or “serf”), used in Karel Čapek’s play R.U.R. (1920)
Hmmm interesting. Some validity to that. Although Asimov is generally credited with the word Robotics and popularizing the term. Thank you for the comment Mhayes!
You beat me to it. I remember studying the play “R. U. R.” In a playwriting class in college. That was, let's see, just over 50 years ago. I do agree with the video, however, that Asimov came up with the term robotics and essentially predicted the whole commercial field of robotics and A. I. He even seems to have recognized the inherent risks which he tried to counter with the three laws of robotics.
@@tomenrico6199 But Čapek’s robots were what we now know of as androids.
I agree with the subjective assessment of Heinlein as superior to Asimov in terms of the depth and distinctiveness of his characters. Asimov's style always struck me as a bit more aloof, more academic, deploying his characters as chess pieces to make political or philosophical points rather than exploring or evolving their inner lives.
I have the same impression of Arthur C. Clarke: both "big idea guys"---e.g. robotics for Asimov, communication satellites for Clarke---a bit less interested, or perhaps less capable, when it came to character depth, uniqueness or development.
And I think it was one of those two, probably Clarke, who first postulated the notion of a space elevator attached to the Earth's equator by a 23,000 mile long cable but I stand to be corrected on that.
@@MoreLifePlease I have to agree. As much as I love Asimov, character development was never his strong suit. When I first joined the Science Fiction Book Club at about age 10 or 11, I got the Foundation Trilogy, mostly because it was “three books, counts as one selection.” I was a little bummed when they arrived and all three volumes were in one book club binding, but hey, when you get four or five selections for a dime (plus shipping), it's hard to complain. Later, I kept my subscription to The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction for years, mostly because of Isaac Asimov's monthly feature on real science. Where he may have been weak in dialogue and character development, his expository writing was exceptional. He could make even complex scientific topics accessible to laymen. I also loved the way he would often trace the history of a scientific topic, highlighting the various scientists who made contributions along the way. Early in 1992, a copy of F&SF arrived without Asimov's customary science column. A note from the publisher in the front of the magazine related that it was the first time in more than forty years that Asimov had missed the deadline to submit his column. Within a couple of months after that, we learned of his death in April 1992. It felt like a great loss, comparable to when, as a boy, I heard that Walt Disney had died.
Ah yes. The eternal question of who is better Asimov or Heinlein. After half a century of reading both, I still can't decide.
Both are Great!
When he was talking about Asimov's writing volume, it reminded me of something Harlan Ellison said "Isaac once had writer's block. It was the worst 10 minutes of his life". The reason it was Foundation's Edge came out many years later.
Hah!
Asimov wrote mystery stories, I highly recommend. His serious of Black Widows is very fun with characters based on writers he knew
I'll have to check those out Slasher! I may actually have those laying around here somewhere Thanks for the recommendation!
They are fantastic and some of my favourite mystery series ever written.
@@mass4552 fully agree
Two Original Star Trek episodes were obviously derived from Heilein.
Charly X is from Stranger in a Strange Land
Operation Annihilate from Puppet Masters
I prefer Heinlein for characters.
Citizen of the Galaxy
Door into Summer
I don't know why so many people like:
Have Spacesuit Will Travel
Most people do not mention Heinlein's use of LOGLAN in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
This is a tip to Heinlein's interest in General Semantics by Alfred Korzybski.
So one vote for Heinlein? I actually did a video on Stranger in a Strange Land and one of my first videos covered Have Spacesuit. And I'd forgotten about Charley on Star Trek! Good call Hackr!
You forgotten Trouble with Tribbles, which is based on the Martian Flat Cats in "The Rolling Stones." Since Charlie X is not even close to Stranger, you can replace it with Tribbles. David Gerrold even talked to Heinlein about his borrowing (or wrote to him) and Heinlein was fine with it.
@@sthed6832
No I did not. I simply do not consider flat cats to be central to that story whereas a human raised by aliens having super powers is the cornerstone of both.
When it comes to the film Starship Troopers, we're talking about a film that purposely satirizes the novel. Great film, but hardly a point in favour of Heinlein. For different reasons, I wouldn't consider the I Robot film a point in favour of anyone. Bicentennial Man, however, combines concept with heart, consistent with the source material.
Verhoeven absolutely satirized the book...and made the movie much better by doing so. But you have to give Heinlein credit for creating the entire concept of mechanized space infantry.
As soon as I heard 'Starship Troopers' I thought that was not an adaptation of Heinlein's work. Verhoeven already had an outline with aliens similar to the bugs. When someone pointed this out, he acquired the rights and adapted his script - but he never even read all of the book.
I would lean towards Heinlein for taking greater risks in his writing. He was not afraid to write a socially provocative novel. As the earlier writer, he had more influence on those that followed. I also recall something about Heinlein being specifically requested to be present at an Apollo launch as an inspiration to the astronauts. Asimov was more about quantity. The incompetent movie and TV adaptations of Asmov's work have marred his reputation.
There were so many excellent sci-fi authors during the later part of this era. It's sad to see the low quality scifi promoted today.
It was definitely the Golden Age! There is some good SciFi being produced today but certainly not at the level or quantity of the past decades. Thank you for checking out the video David!
In the seventies there was a magazine called Omni that had an article about him being at NASA for some big launch/test or some thing but couldn't get access because he didn't have the correct credentials having been invited by a journalist who thought his credentials would be enough to get them both access.
Apparently NASA regretted that choice as Heinlein was of more interest to the journalists than what ever NASA was doing that day.
"The day you stop learning is the day you start dying" - Lazarus Long
Good stuff David!
Did you miss Fantastic Voyage for adaptations and films ?
Fantastic Voyage is actually based on a story by Otto Klement. However, Asimov wrote the novelization of the film and often mistakenly receives credit for the movie.
I vote for Heinlein, no contest. While I give full credit to Asimov as a scientist and an insanely (not just "exceptionally") prolific writer, Heinlein's ability to create real people in his stories-including short stories-simply cannot be matched by Asimov, or Clarke, for that matter. I began reading science fiction in the very early '70s, and Heinlein's work was already widely known, especially the books "Stranger in a Strange Land" and "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," both of which had been published only a few years before I began my lifelong love affair with science fiction.
While I must confess that much of the initial attraction of Heinlein's writing for me was the sexuality in many of his more adult-themed novels (important to a teen boy!), his creation of living, breathing worlds and characters not only set him apart from the other two writers, but also defined for me a core element of good science fiction: Stories about Man in the context of change brought by technology. This makes "The Cold Equations" an equally important story to me, and why as fascinating as the Foundation series was, or many of the works by Clarke, they simply don't hold the same interest. They characters are generally two-dimensional and don't generate empathy in the reader.
By the way, as an aside, Heinlein also came up with the term "waldo" for remote manipulators used in industry and science, which is still in common use today, I believe. Thanks so much for this video. It was much more interesting than I expected and also won you another subscriber! Also, the background reminds me so much of the used book stores where I spent so much time growing up--I love it! I look forward to the results of your poll!🙂
Thanks Cats and thanks for checking out the video! I have you down as a vote for Heinlein. And I agree with your assessment on the authors. Heinlein created more engaging characters.
The three Grand Masters were Asimov, Heinlein, and Arthur C. Clarke. In addition to all the books he wrote, Clarke invented the communications satellite. In his book Imperial Earth, he wrote about a device very similar to an iPad.
Frank Herbert is not even in the running compared to the big three.
You are correct Henri. Many people who aren't familiar with the big 3 of the Golden Era will put Herbert into that category. But for my money, Asimov and Heinlein dominate the field.
@@GrammaticusBooks I agree Clarke's star has faded. On the other hand, if Villeneuve directs a Rendezvous with Rama movie, Clarke may catch up a bit. I don't know if Villeneuve still intends to do that though. I haven't seen much about a Rendezvous with Rama movie since 2022.
@@henrikmartensson2044 Don't use movies as a metric for a writer's quality. But if you did, 2001 beats them all, not only the best sf movie ever made, but it almost always makes the list of best movies ever made period. And it counts since Clarke was far more involved than Asimov or Heinlein in any of the movies made of their work.
@@sthed6832I almost suggested Clarke for his movie adaptations. But I never cared for 2001 as a movie. And didn't care for any of the books of that series. But I loved the film 2010.
Fun video, G! Put me down for Robert A. Heinlein. By the way, did you mention Destination Moon, a movie that Heinlein co-wrote with two other guys? Maybe that would help get Heinlein a point.
I did see he worked on the script for 'Destination Moon'. But I wasn't sure I could count that as an adaptation since it didn't derive from a previous work. But I will put you down as a vote for Heinlein! Thanks Rick!
@@GrammaticusBooksI'm not so sure that Destination Moon wasn't an adaptation. At least in part it may be it adapted from Rocket Ship Galileo which was written by Heinlein.
@@GrammaticusBooks He was the technical advisor. There is an article in Astounding from when the movie came out about his experience. While Destination Room was not an exact adaptation from Rocket Ship Galileo, it was closer than I Robot. Susan Calvin as an action here? Give me a break.
@GrammaticusBooks Apparently there were many fingerprints on the script. Heinlein said by the time they were done the director's wife was suggesting revisions!
@@indetigersscifireview4360 I thought Destination Moon was adapted from RSG.
Heinlein for me without any doubts
Got it Oleg, one vote for Heinlein! Thank you for checking out the video!
Heinlein is tops. The Grand master Nebula was created with Heinlein in mind.
He has my vote!
Has to be Heinlein!
Alright, another vote for Heinlein. Thanks Doc!
I'm kind of sorry to bring this up, but... good grief, the singular is criterion, the plural is criteria. It drives me crazy to hear someone say, "our first criteria is..." no! Our first criterion is!
I have been duly educated Teuton! It's the exception and not the norm unfortunately, when I can speak for 20 minutes without screwing something up!
@@GrammaticusBooks I apologize for being snotty about that. I normally can stop myself from making comments like that.
@@GrandTeuton Not an problem at all! No worries!
Interesting idea for a video. I'll vote Heinlein.
Roger that one vote for Heinlein!
FWIW, Asimov generally wasn't called "Mr. Asimov"--once he got his Ph.D, he insisted on "Dr. Asimov" in public settings, and most people in the fandom respected that most of the time during his life.
Thank you. His nickname to fandom was "The Good Doctor." I got to go on a picnic with him when I was at MIT, just before he left Boston. I can just imagine him rebuking Grammaticus. I got him to autograph the Galaxy with The Martian Way in it. Herbert Gold misspelled his name on the cover, and Asimov was still pissed 20 years later.
He was a professor...I should give the man his due. Good point Manny!
You forget the Great Grand master of Science Fiction himself: Jules Vernes in the 1860s. Predicted the submarine (Nautilus), predicted helicopters, predicted moon landing, a survivor before his time (Mysterious Island), name it. He is the best. However a tossup for me between Asimov and Heinlein. Both are extraordinary in their own way.
Heinlein may be the Dean of SF. But Jules is the Father of SF!
Heinlien because of Stranger in a Strange land.
A pivotal book in Science Fiction! I think you might like my other video on Heinlein "What the Grok Happened to Heinlein", that goes into Stranger quite a bit. Thanks for checking out the video WMM!
I really enjoyed this video Grammaticus. As soon as I read the title, I thought about it for about 5 seconds and my answer was Heinlein. I've read and enjoyed both authors. From my perspective I believe Heinlein came out on top because his stories were always more action oriented than Asimov's stories. That being said I still think Asimov is a fun and interesting author.
No doubt both are Grand Masters and great authors. I have you down for Heinlein Steven.
By the way, Grammaticus, this was fun-and brilliant! Well done!😊
Thank you Pat!
BUT, and i must add this, in my youth Heinlein was my favourite author.
So if it came down to a vote between these two it would be for him
Understood Musician, one vote for Heinlein.
Hands down, RAH! Heinlein is responsible for my love of SciFi. I cut my teeth on his "juvenile" novels, and they may actually have informed my earliest perceptions of the political world around us.
I too cut my teeth on Heinlein as a kid Silver! Great stuff. Not to disparage Asimov but I prefer to re-read RAH. Although the first Foundation book is excellent.
February, 1965. My teacher, for reasons I won't go into, had put me in the very back of the room and left me to my own devices. In the bookcase behind me, two books caught my eye: War of the Worlds (which I'd heard of) and Have Space Suit-Will Travel. The television western Have Gun-Will Travel was popular in my household, so I decided to read that book first. Immediately afterward I begged my mother to buy me a sliderule, then I found a book by Asimov to teach me how to use it.
I can't vote, because while I've read all of Asimov's major works (and a ton of his non-fiction as well) I have read almost nothing of Heinlein. (Stranger in a Strange Land is the only one I've read that comes to mind.) But I do have a few observations, starting with the fact that pitting Asimov against Heinlein presumes too much. At least two other major 20th century names probably deserve consideration:
1. I think Arthur C. Clarke *MUST* be part of the conversation for the greatest of all time. No explanation necessary.
2. While you correctly note that PKD was not enormously popular in his lifetime, consider how he would have stacked up in this competition . . . He would have *blown away* both Asimov and Heinlein in the Adaptations category. No one comes close.
In addition, I would suggest that you should consider another category . . . something like "Original Prolificity". What I mean by that is to evaluate the writers based upon the number of *original* creations they are responsible for. Asimov wrote seven "Foundation" novels, but those are tied in to the same literary universe (and even some events) as his four major "Robot" novels (there is also an ostensible connection to a few pre-Foundation novels based in the Empire). My point is, we're talking about some great works but which share a common backdrop. This is enormously popular with fans-reading a sequel saves us from the hard work of figuring our way around in a new universe-but it should be noted (in judging writers) that it is *easier for the writer* because he doesn't have to re-create as much. So Asimov's seven Foundation novels may be impressive, but not as impressive as creating seven entirely unconnected novels set in different literary universes. To some extent, Original Prolificity and Popularity are working against each other, but I think in evaluating the greatness of a writer, we need to give credit to writers for how much original thinking they did. And in that regard, I think the clear winner (at least in the past 100 years) has got to be Philip K. Dick, whose almost always created a new universe every time he sat down at the typewriter. (And he is all the more impressive in this regard when you realize that he died at the young age of 53.)
I also wonder if perhaps some 19th century writers might merit consideration. Jules Verne has had several major adaptations, and he also deserves credit for anticipating much of the future. The same might be said of H.G. Wells.
One last comment. I absolutely love Asimov's works, but your comments about the paucity of dialogue and character development in his books is undeniably on point. He did get a bit better in his last decade, but it doesn't change the fact that it can be hard to go back and read the original Foundation Trilogy. You're right, he has not aged well. (Oh, and while Asimov *did* coin the word "robotics", he did *not* coin "robot".)
Thank you for the great comments BS-vx8dg! Great observations. With Clarke, I left him out based on two points. His works aren't nearly as popular. And I find him incredibly boring as an author. HG Wells vs Jules Verne is a very interesting proposition. That may be fodder for a later video. And I like your analysis of Original Prolificity vs Production. That has quite a bit of merit. With PKD, I'm not a big fan of his works or writing style. The Blade Runner movies are a case of the movie transcending the novel. And I think the same can be said of the other adaptations. But PKD is an acquired taste and his star is certainly on the rise as evidenced by the prices his books command. Again GREAT observations and I thank you for the extensive comments! And thank you for checking out the video BS-vx8dg!
@@GrammaticusBooks "And I find [Clarke] incredibly boring as an author. " Sadly, I have to agree with you there. It's because so much of his writing is pure exposition. Have you read Rendezvous with Rama? I read it while recovering from surgery about 35 years ago; I was supposed to lay still in bed for a few days, and R w/R was *perfect* because nothing happens; never for a moment did my pulse quicken. I I was a surgeon I would keep copies of it to put in patients' recovery supplies. The later Rama books (which I believe had co-authors) had a bit more plot, but again, ACC is all about describing details, not about telling stories.
I did read Rama...a long time ago. And yeah, pretty slow!
The books I most like by Heinlein I find more re-readable than the books I most like by Asimov. Asimov's concepts are superb, but Heinlein's writing is more enjoyable. Heinlein's characters are usually more like real people you might meet.
I agree Kirk!
I remove stickers with Zippo lighter fluid. It won't damage any paper it comes into contact with, even white paper.
A number of people have said to use lighter fluid...I may have to give this a try!
Asimov wrote an estimated 8-11 hours a day virtually every day of his adult life.
I believe it!
There were actually two film adaptations of _Nightfall_ . The first was a kind of hippie-styled, low-budget work produced by Roger Corman's wife in 1988, and the second was a 2000 direct-to-video movie starring David Carradine and a bunch of Bollywood extras. I've only seen the second-well, most of it, because the "chaos" of night-fall was so boring I gave up on it. But I've heard that the earlier work is no better.
A David Carradine straight to video...Oh boy! I may have to go look for that disaster!
I have both on dvd. Not very good but Isaac is my favorite author so... ❤❤❤❤
I believe - if my rusty-azz brain is memoricating correctly - that Asimov is the ONLY known writer to have at least ONE volume in EVERY category of the Dewey Decimal System. OK, THAT is beyond impressive. That rates deep respect. And he conceived something we BETTER start programming in: The Three Laws of Robotics.
I yet lean a bit toward Heinlein from personal entertainment-oriented prejudice, and the fact he invented the water bed by accident b/c he couldn't sink.
Heinlein was not endeavoring to educate yet it did come through as a necessity to following his stories.
Further, while Heinlein's paradox-proof view of functional time travel is so logically sensible, "All You Zombies" showed he could, if you flavor it, get Escher-like lost in paradox, if that's your flavor.
I think their difference lies in Asimov's storytelling was shaped by his desire to teach science while pursuing a ponder; Heinlein's focus was the story's reveal of human character and nature with science as the constraint on what he could describe.
To me, they are a tie. Not wimping out, just considering 6 decades of consuming their and others content: I would include H. G. Wells, as exploration of the human spirit, nature, and condition were always his foundations (science gussied up enough to take the place of a "magic ring," as Wells once commented). So Wells-Asimov-Heinlein are my top three.
I can't argue with a tie Dennis. They are both giants of the golden age of SF!
Robert A. Heinlein.
Duly noted Jason!
No question in my mind. Robert A. Heinlein is the better author. I have read all of his works multiple times and enjoyed each one every time. And that includes his juveniles. Those stories are very entertaining.
I love Heinlein's juveniles Randy!
Purely as a writer of sf, Heinlein, by a country mile.
Thanks Arthur! I've got your vote recorded.
I disagree. Asimov might not have had the most glowing prose, but he had more depth of character and a more sophisticated view of the world. Some of Heinlein's dialogue, particularly in his later work, is entirely embarrassing and barely resembles human speech, whereas Asimov's is more natural. Look at The Number of the Beast, for example, where all 4 main characters are interchangeable and speak like narcissistic autistics.
Heinlein's "Puppet Masters" was also made into a (not so memorable) movie.
Fun fact: Heinlein, Asimov, Pohl Anderson and L. Sprague de Camp were all doing work for the Department of War at the same place at the same time.
They were at the Philadelphia Shipyard.
During which, the infamous "Philadelphia Experiment" took place.
All four of them were asked and said that they knew nothing about such an incident.
Excellent stuff Mike! I'd had not heard that Pohl was there! And can you imagine being a fly on the wall for there off the record discussions?!?!
@@GrammaticusBooks Thanks. I may be wrong about Pohl Anderson being at the Shipyards. His Wiki bio makes no mention of him being involved in any activities there. I was just going from memory of something I had thought I had read or heard years ago.
Just re-read it. He wouldn't have been old enough. Unless he was a prodigy of some sorts.
The Puppet Masters was the first Heinlein novel I read. When the movie came out I phoned up a friend and said "Hey, there is a movie coming out based on a science fiction book that is very important to me, but I'm sure they have botched it. You are the only one I know who can appreciate a badly done movie."
@@DavidTShaw A "poor" adaption is being overly generous, IMO
Minor correction, the script for I, Robot was not really based off Asimov's story. It was a Canandian guys script that the studio liked and they had the rights to I, Robot but no script. The original script writer worked with a couple of script doctors to add in names and some idea from Asimov and the studio used that instead.
I'd say it's fair to state the movie is based off of the I Robot novels in general. If not specifically.
You didn't mention _Destination Moon (a.k.a. Operation Moon),_ a 1950 Major Motion Picture (in an amazing Technicolor (for its time)) based on a Heinlein story; the screen play was also co-written by him. It took in $1.5 million at the Box Office, on a half million budget~ a lot for then/there..
I know it was a long time ago, but it still counts.
It wasn't a huge budget production but wasn't B-movie trash.
It got respectable reviews.
In his 1979 autobiography, Isaac Asimov called this film "the first intelligent science-fiction movie made"
I hear you Sailor. But I left Destination Moon off for two reasons. First was the age of the movie. And second is there seems to be some debate as to whether Heinlein wrote the novel before or after the movie. Some sources cite the novel as a novelization created by Heinlein for the movie. Which due to production delays, actually wound up being published prior to the movie.
@@GrammaticusBooksI think there is some documentation in the special features and perhaps more in Grumbles from the Grave. But the interviews with Heinlein and George Pal could have been more promotional than factual.
I think the movie Dark City owes a lot to Heinlein's The Unpleasant Profession of Jonathan Hoag. I have never been able to find proof, but just reading it makes the connection obvious
I can see that connection Carey!
Heinlein for the win. As far as film adaptations, you missed Destination Moon, arguably the first of the modern, ie after 1950, movies plus Heinlein actually worked on the production. While I like Asimov’s Robot stories, his Foundation books were….eh…..tedious. Heinlein’s juvenile series probably attracted more readers to become engineers, while his more adult novels brought more non-SciFi fans into the fold. Also, for the record, the term “Robot” originated in a play written in 1920 by Czech writer Karel Capek titled “R.U.R.” which stands for “Rossum’s Universal Robots”. While his creations were more like androids, they were assembled like machines and the word robot is a derivative of the word for “forced labor” or “slave”.
One vote for Heinlein Richard! I considered Destination Moon but wound up rejecting it due to its age. And you're 100% right on Robot. I should have said Robotics (along with the 3 laws)!
Sorry, it was Heinlein known as the Dean of Science Fiction and also coined the acronym Tanstaafl.
Is that not what I said?
@@GrammaticusBooks You did say that. Forgive me, but I don't remember the meaning of the acronym, tanstaafl.
Robert a Heinlein
Got it Scott, one vote for Heinlein.
The fact that it can be translated into other media easily to me is a minus not a plus. A brilliant novel that is difficult to translate generally is so because it is using the strength of the medium of writing to its fullest.
That is an interesting theory Kuldas. And not without merit!
Arthur . C. Clarkes popularity took a MAJOR hit when it came to light what a STINKER he is .
Lol...he is a bit of a slow read.
Heinlein. Like many people, i reread his books over and over. I have only reread one or two Asimov books
I do find him a bit more rereadable than Asimov.
Have you tried using a blow dryer to warm up the sticker?
Alternatively, when it's warm outside you can put it on the cars dashboard for a few hours.
Once I had a bunch of books to remove stickers from so I put them in a black trashbag in the sun for a few hours. Whatever trick you do, the heat really softens the adhesive.
I actually did try the blow dryer trick. It took off the top sticker but that nasty bottom sticker has a different type of adhesive that just isn't responding to heat. Another person commented that I should rub lighter fluid on it....
@@GrammaticusBooks lighter fluid might work but could stain the cover like oil. Maybe acetone on a q-tip carefully.
Also, great video and follow up. I'm new here but will be checking out your other videos.
Note to self: do not throw away those old PKD paperbacks. (Also, I pretty much agree with your analysis. Asimov is a top-notch idea man but when I tried to remember any of his characters that actually made me feel anything the only example I could remember was the hero from Pebble in the Sky. Which is not even a particularly good novel.)
Yes. PKD characters always stick out. He would have some wild and weird stories and he made them work because of hia characters. They were often complicated characters with internal struggles.
So one vote for Heinlein? And yes, never throw away those paperbacks! Thanks for checking out the video Zoicon!
Pebble in the Sky is arguably a Foundation prequel.
Most Excellent video. I don't know if I'm too late: but i vote for Heinlein as i feel his over all influence on other sci fi writers across the decades is stronger
Not too late Sleepy! I have your vote recorded for Heinlein.
I vote for Leigh Brackett. She had 11 screenplays including The Empire Stikes Back, over 374 works (short stories, novels, and series), was the first woman shortlisted for the Hugo Award for Best Novel, and one of the first two women nominated for a Hugo Award. For price I went to Thriftbooks and Ebay. Her paperback The Hounds of Skaith averaged $16.84. Her VF first edition paperbacks frequently go for over $100. As for relevancy, many Mangas and Anime, such as Cowboy Beebop, were heavily influenced by her Eric Stark series.
Noted, one write in for Leigh Brackett!
Forgive me posting again, but sadly I must say I read all of Heinlein's SciFi books in order of publication (before 'binge watching' was a thing), and then he died about a week later. I read all the Asimov SciFi books in order of publication, then heard he died just a few weeks later. Whoa. ALSO, I read the Herbert Dune series books, then he died THREE days later! I stopped reading authors' works in this manner since.
Please don't watch all of my videos in order, Lol! But that's kind of freaky Mentor. And a lot of books to read!
Heinlein will always be my favorite, but Asimov deserves credit for introducing me to science fiction circa 1954 via his Lucky Starr series.
Both were great authors. A difficult choice LanNfan!
Great comparison! But, per the name of your channel, shouldn't the appropriate word (grammar) for each element of comparison have been "criterion", not "criteria"? Just asking. Thanks for vid.
Hah! Yes, you are correct sir!
Excellent video. Jam packed with info. I've read a tonne of Asimov...but embarrassed to say I've never read any Heinlein. 😊 Where would you suggest that I start with him?
I'd start with Orphans of the Sky SD. It's short, 128 pages. Gives you a great flavor for Heinlein. Full of big ideas and plot driven. If you like Orphans, there's a strong chance you'd like his other works. I'd stay away from Starship Troopers though. At least at first, it's mostly political ideologizing. And thanks for checking out the video! (PS - video on Orphans going up tomorrow morning)
@@GrammaticusBooks Nice. I'll check it out. Glad to report that I read 'Roadside Picnic'. Quite the book...thanks for that recommendation. It (mostly) erased the memory of the turgid mess that was 'The Three Body Problem'.
@@StygianDogs Hah!
@@GrammaticusBooks 😂 Reading it on a beach in South Carolina helped too.
Personally I would suggest any of his juveniles. The Rolling Stones are a particular favorite of mine, with Space Cadet a close second.
As for his adult novels, I recommend The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress of Stranger In a Strange Land.
Excellent vid...and was struck in my current reading of Asimov's unifying book order (as recommended by him) of his insights into A.I. This in reference to your last criterion. It was like reading/watching all the UA-cam and TED vids on the current A.I. discussion.
I'll bet that's an interesting read Mentorman!
I'm a bit late to this, but you forgot to mention that Heinlein was an Engineer and invented the "Waldo", the mechanical manipulator (Arm). And gave us the word "Grok" for understanding.
All good points to add onto the Dean's resume!
Not sure if if I qualify fot voting right, but I think Heinlein because of a short story of his. But Asimov is by far the most famous in my part of the world, so he would be my objective vote. If you're interested, Verhoeven is pronounced like hoover, just with ver before and n instead of r. 😊
Thank you for the tip on Verhoeven Anne! Much appreciated. Now I just need to figure out how to pronounce Villeneuve! Thank you for checking out the video and the comments!
I grew up reading both. I never cared for Asimov. Loved that Bob. He’s why I enlisted in the Navy.
Glad to hear that shipmate!
It is interesting that I have a complete collection of Heinlein's works and have read them all, some many times, while I don't own a single Asimov novel, only stories in collections. Asimov's three laws are important, but most Heinlein heroes provide a great example for life. Sorry, but both Asimov and Herbert just bore me to tears.
Maybe I need to watch the new Dune and change my mind, but the first movie years ago only convinced me that if those characters were in the Andromeda galaxy, they were way too close for comfort or even survival.
The 1984 Dune? Or the 2021 Dune? And while I do like Herbert's first Dune novel, I agree that after that he can be fairly dull. Thanks for checking out the video Grant!
@@GrammaticusBooksIMHO Dune was not his best novel. That goes to The Dosadi Experiment which itself was a sequel to Whipping Star.
I remember waiting excitedly for the next volume of the Foundation series or the I Robot series to hit the book store shelves.
Those are great books Aminuts!
Have you tried using a hair dryer (on low heat) to soften the adhesive on that nasty price sticker?
I did try that with no joy unfortunately. Several people have recommended lighter fluid...which makes me nervous.
@@GrammaticusBooks That was going to be my next suggestion, LOL. Great video on my two favourite authors, by the way.
You got the original Foundation series in the wrong order. The correct order is as follows: 1. Foundation, 2. Foundation and Empire, 3. Second Foundation.
Yes I did, a slip of the tongue.
I’d vote Heinlein by a large margin. But I question you giving both of them equal standing in the awards category. While both were awarded an equal amount of Hugo’s, Heinlein had four Nebulas to Asimov’s two which clearly puts Heinlein ahead. Certainly so when you considered the remaining lesser accolades being an equal wash. I’m going to toss out a few more things for consideration. The great songwriter Jimmy Webb adapted with permission from Heinlein the title “The Moon is a Harsh Mistress” to song, the best version of which was done by Glenn Campbell. It’s a lovely, haunting song which also very much reflects the underlying spirit of the book. Then there is the collected Virginia hardback edition of Heinlein’s books, novel, stories ,including letters, notes, speeches and other writings all on archival acid free paper. I don’t know of any other SF writer who has this kind of treatment for their entire life’s work.
I did not know that about the song being written for the Moon is a Harsh Mistress! Good info Bart!
Thank you for this fascinating comparison between the two leading classical SciFi authors, Heinlein and Asimov. My own personal favorite was Asimov simply because Heinlein got a bit weird toward the end, plus it's hard to beat the Foundation Trilogy and the I, Robot series. But your analysis reflects far more awareness of the subject matter and is clearly defensible on several levels. Warmest compliments. :)
Asimov is a fantastic author James! You can't go wrong with Foundation and I Robot. Thanks for checking out the video!
I really liked Asimov when I was a teen but have not felt any desire to revisit his work as I have Heinlein.
However, points to Asimov for tragic death in that he caught AIDS related infection after a blood transfusion.
I did not know that about Asimov and the heart transfusion. Tragic story.
Made me happy to see Karl Edward Wagner on the shelf.
Wagner is a fantastic author Ruprecht!
Price elasticity is a weird measure unless it considers the volume of each book sold. Also, does it consider 2nd hand and thrift store sales? Most of Heinlein and Asimov had been out a long time by the time I started reading them in the '70s. Most of their stuff I bought used.
The study did take into account volume but not thrift store sales. That data isn't available. It was based on bids off of online auctions for SF books of the same quality (damage etc, not content quality).
Your vid's title grabbed me immediately, and you got me totally in your camp with your phrase, "...price elasticity..." BAM! Gotta admit that although I am currently reading Asimov's grand unifying books (including the Robot series and Foundation), Heinlein is my fave. Best quote, "The slave cannot be freed, save he do it himself." That means the individual must WANT and strive for freedom, not sit back and just passively let it happen. However, I loved Asimov's record on a MANUAL typewriter of over 200 words a minute. Whoa...
I did not know Asimov had the record for words a minute on a manual Mentorman! But it doesn't surprise me given how much output he had. Asimov is a great author. A titan of the Golden Age!
Heinlein. Just look at Starship Troopers. It was preachy as hell, Heinlein pretty much hits you over the head with his views in this one...*but*, it was still as entertaining and fun as anything I've ever read. I just marvel, dumbstruck, at his ability to do that...
He did like to hit people over the head with his ideas...but he did it so dang well.
It's interesting how many are drawn to the decidedly libertarian orientation of Heinlein heroes.
This kind of politics is very appealing to sci-fi fans of this era.
I would agree!
Read almost all of both writers, starting in grade school… I’d rather reread a Heinlein book than an Asimov one
A common position among the viewers Thomas!
Heinlein was the master of the social implications of sci-fi.
Asimov was the master of the technological ramifications of sci-fi.
Neither was better than the other, they had different visions.
Both were great Rompers!
Asimov wrote a wide variety of books other than Science Fiction, Science textbooks,mystery, history, religious history , and humor. I enjoy both authors and I am forever grateful that my father introduced me to them at an early age. I am a proud female nerd. My vote is Asimov.
Asimov is a terrific SF author Bethelaine! An excellent vote madam!
Heinlein gets my vote. I was unaware of science fiction before I stumbled on "Have Space Suit- Will Travel" in my junior high library. The title caught my attention, & the story made me a fan of the genre. "Have Space Suit" is still a favorite. I recently started rereading my Heinlein books, & of course I started with "Have Space Suit".
Noted and Have Spacesuit is one of my favorite RAH juveniles.
Another criterion you might consider is Which author created the most memorable characters? Thinking of the three-dimensional visions of Heinlein, I would really love to meet Lazarus Long, versus Asimov's Daneel Olivaw.
That's a great idea Arthur!
First and foremost how could you not include Arthur C. Clarke? He has two Hugo and two Nebula awards a Marconi Award and he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth! At least two movies adaptations. Wrote two book series, Space Odyssey series and Rama series. And hosted a British TV show on paranormal phenomena.
There are two other movies that Heinlein wrote the screenplay for. One of them I can't remember. The other I just watched is called Project Moon Base. It's pretty cringe worthy. So maybe he deserves a bit more recognition in the adaption category. Maybe not.
On the other hand Asimov himself said how surprised he was that Foundation did so well. He thought that nothing happened and it was just a bunch of people talking. So good for him to get people reading a book where nothing ever happens.
My vote has to go to Heinlein. I re-read his work more often than I do Asimov.
One vote for Heinlein, thank you Tiger! Regarding Clarke, he's definitely one of the "Big Three" when it comes to Golden Age SciFi authors. But (in my opinion) he doesn't carry the same popularity as Asimov or Heinlein. But I could be wrong on that count! About Foundation, I completely agree. It's a ton of dialogue with very little narrative...especially in the follow on novels. Thank you for checking out the video Tiger and thank you for the comments.
Just a correction. Clarke wrote the original Rendezvous with Rama, but the sequels were written by Gently Lee. And they are awful. Really, really awful. And they get worse as the series moves on. I hope Clarke made a lot of money from them.
Huge heinlien fan Moon is a harsh mistress is my favorite
That's a good one KM!
i go with Heinlein because almost all of his stories fall within a historicail type time line
Interesting and very valid point Leonard!
Who wins? Science Fiction. I'm not sure the two are really comparable. Completely different writing styles, completely different general character traits. The only similarities are the genre.
"Who wins? Science Fiction" YES! 100%! Both are great!
Definitely Heinlein. Lazarus Long is one of the greatest fictional characters ever created.
Got you down for Heinlein Dean! Thank you for checking out the video and for the comments!
I thought that the biggest plot hole in Foundation was the contradiction between of the premise and the execution of it.
the premise was psycho history - impersonal forces and mass movements, and NOT great men. this was simply the trend in historiography at the time (I am a history buff): extrapolated out to a galactic scale.
BUT the novels had, as novels usually need, HEROES (Olaf Stapledon's first and last men was the only exception i have ever found) which struck me as a complete contradiction.
And RAH, well, I thought he became a Dirty Old Man as he got older. But you said in "What the Grok . . . ?" : that no he never changed, the times changed so he could then write about what he always believed.
so to me it is neither.
The greatest moments of mind blowing TRANSCENDENCE i ever found were in Arthur Clarke: childhood's end Against the fall of Night ( was the the story of the city of diaspar?) and above all 2001 which i reread a few years ago. and found it made much more sense than the movie
and of course Greg Bear's Eon and Eternity really did it for me.
but i am a mystic with a taste for infinity)
:)
Quite a few people became disenchanted with RAH's later works due to the off the beaten track adult themes that would pop up. I get that. Have you read Friday by RAH by any chance? A strong female lead with an unusual background. And I really do need to read Eon and Eternity!
I reread my copies of Heinlein. I haven't reread an Asimov's in decades. I'll give the point to Heinlein.
Precisely!
Noted Aaron!
I've read a not-very-grand total of three books by Heinlein and one by Asimov. I'd be open to reading more by Heinlein, not so much with Asimov, so for me, Heinlein.
I actually still have that Avalon Hill game of Starship Troopers (awful box art), but I've managed to lose the rules. All I remember of it is that it was a bad idea to play the skinnies.
Yeah, not the greatest board game ever made (I do love the new Dune board game by Gale Force 9). I'll put you down as a vote for Heinlein Para. And thanks for checking out the video!
Heinlein is a storyteller as much as a raw ideas man. Although I read Asimov first, Heinlein made me go out and buy all his books and consume them voraciously. I maybe valued Asimov more as a non-fiction writer and I loved his autobiographical memoirs, but the SF winner is undoubtedly Heinlein.
Good points and duly noted Mike!
Robert Heinlein inspired my interest in engineering.
That's a great story DC! And that's what the best SF authors do. Thank you for sharing that!
I vote for Heinlein. While I have great respect for Asimov, Heinlein pulled off a number of masterpieces--Time Enough for Love, Stranger in a Strange Land, Glory Road, Starship Troopers, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, To Sail Beyond the Sunset, Friday, The Number of the Beast...those have all stuck with me long after I read them. I've read a few Asimov books and honestly don't recall much about them. So I'm on team Heinlein.
Heinlein did crank out a slew of top notch SF Dann! Vote noted!
Can't believe "Stanger" has never been adapted..
Asimov was the better writer. Heilein the more complete human being, and it shows in his writing.
Can you imagine Hollywood adapting it today? I'm not sure I'd want to see that!
The word 'robot' was first used to denote a fictional humanoid in a 1920 Czech-language play R.U.R. (Rossumovi Univerzální Roboti - Rossum's Universal Robots) by Karel Čapek, though it was Karel's brother Josef Čapek who was the word's true inventor.
So, Asimov coined the term "robotics" but not the term "robot". Heinlein coined the term "grok".
Also Philip K. Dick has had a bunch of adaptations, way more that either of the authors who this video is focused on. 15 movies plus two series.
You are correct Scott on the origin of the original word Robot. I should have said "robotics". I believe the point is still valid in that Asimov popularized the word and outlined it's rules and laws. And Heinlein did indeed invent Grok and Waldo. And while PKD has had a resurgence in popularity with movie adaptations, he's unfortunately not considered one of the big three (Clarke, Asimov & Heinlein).
@@GrammaticusBooks Heinlein also invented the electromagnetic catapult that is now being tested by the Pentagon as a weapon. Heinlein also invented the waterbed.
Heinlein is the more engaging and protean storyteller. With Asimov, the concept is king and the characters and plot subsumed to presenting the concept du jour - nonetheless engaging in its own way.
I couldn't agree with you more Isagani!
Heinlein for philosophy! Impressed me when I was just getting around to reading.
One for Heinlein!
You completely missed Destination Moon based on Rocketship Galileo, the first hard science fiction big budget (produced by George Pal) Hollywood movie. With special guest star Woody Woodpecker explaining rocket propulsion.
I did consider it User, it was just too old (in my opinion). Hard to ignore I Robot with Will Smith and a $100M Apple TV series.
Heinlein did have a term from one of his stories that was in general use (though it’s no longer used). That was Waldo for a remote manipulator. Actually was the title of the story and the main character’s name.
Actually, Foundation Trilogy is was originally a collection of short stories published in the pulp fiction magazines. One thing about Asimov that bothered me is how he tried to paste together his robot universe with his Foundation universe. It didn’t add anything to either.
Both Asimov and Heinlein’s later works seriously disappointed me.
I'd forgotten about Waldo Wise! Thank you for that reminder. And your comment on the author's later years has been a common one.
Heinlein gets my nod. But darn it is close. 😊
I understand and agree with your take on these two Sean! They're both great authors!
Heinlein
Roger that, one vote for Heinlein!
Heinlein for me. Growing up on his YA series, and then the Moon Is a Harsh Mistress and others, I lived for new books by the master.
Duly noted Justin!
You are asking me to do the impossible … when I’m absorbed into a Heinlein book he’s better than all the rest. And when I’m absorbed into an Asimov book he’s better than all the rest.
They are both great!