Exactly exactly exactly. So glad someone explained quite well some of the basic ideas of penetrations! Even without damage calc formulas and other math things anyone can see this video and actually understand building a bit better on mages and assassins, which i see very often people (even pros) completely trolling it. Great as always very underrated channel
it's really down to team comp and how much AP ratios your abilities have. Rumble for example can also spike heavily on death cap since his Q AP scaling is 110% but shadow flame just happens to be cheaper and can help with last hitting.
Me: **Sees average win rate items from sites** A mathematically correct AP singed doesn't necessarily have a higher average win rate. A mathematically correct Garen shows you should build crit items and one Black cleaver but win rate sites, doesn't even have crit items aside from the occasionally one crit item.(often that anti heal item)
yeah because there's a huge difference between a champion's maximum efficiency and their highest average efficiency. More people will lose games as crit garen than juggernaut garen, because even though crit garen does more damage, he dies quicker. It's a case of optimal scenario vs average scenario.
One thing you have to note: When you build flat Mpen on Kaisa for example, you will force your enemy to build MR and as a result, the enemies won't have armor for your q
it's just different meta tbh. protoflame is used in fast games (600g cheaper, 3 minutes of perfect cs) for faster spike. protodon gives more value for vlad, but you potentially miss out a game-winning fight. but yeah in this vid it's not the correct reasoning to compare mpen vs pure ap on vlad.
Meta or what I call, Win rate items are usually safer cause they're tried and tested, and these maths usually don't account for how telegraphed or easy to dodge your spells are or how expensive or situational they're cost, or if there are counters in the enemy side like Wind wall or Gwen W. Unless you really know what you are doing. Also, items are a bit like champs, you win if you end the game early like Mejais soulstealer.
@@MangaGamified i just see mejais as bait 99% of the time, the moment you get some stacks ur a big ass target, and i refuse to use something as cheap as zhonyas to survive as a mage unless its literally the only option vs champs like zed/vi
But is it better to build a lot of ap or magic resist against tanky enemies? Is there a difference in building when enemy has a lot of resistances like a ksante with jak sho or a lot of hp like a cho gath with heart steal? Is it better to stack ap against hp heavy enemies and better to go Magic Pen against high MR enemies?
it depends what your champ does and what stats the enemy you're fighting has. If you're against a heartsteel warmogs cho'gath, you won't need more magic pen than sorc shoes gives you, because he's just stacking health on his base mr. In that case you'd build up your AP ratios. If it's a k'sante with FoN and Kaenic then you need to stack magic pen to reduce the effectiveness of his MR.
you forgot to add that the ratio of base damage vs scaling also matters, which is the reason why syndra is one of the best mages to build pen, her base damage compared to her scalings is one of the highest in the game, especially in the mid game where the first spikes come into play
Hmm intresting i always tought that the math for pen was (BaseMR-flat)* (1-%pen) Nice to see that its the other way around. But also: The more mr the enemy has the less effective flat pen is after more than 150 15pen gives you only 10% more damage where as going from 300 to 360 ap gives you a 20% boost overall (Usually )
300 ap to 360 ap is not a 20% increase, you have to consider the base damage of the ability too, which in some champions can be considerable. For example, syndra q at maximum level with 300 ap would deal 215 + 180 damage, 60 extra ap would be 36 damage, or a 9% increase in damage.
A lot of these "do more damage" champs cant' build MPen items (also the whole category of "do more damage" champs is a vague: every champ wants to deal more damage, but they won't build full damage because they offer something more valuable than raw damage). If you go Shadowflame/Void second on syndra you are going to be much weaker than a syndra that goes Rabadon's second. This is because every point of AP you buy after completing Rab will give you 40% more ap, effectively making all of your AP purchases 40% more efficient. So you begin ramping up beyond the natural curve of AP that champions without Rabadon's have, because Rab straight up gives you 40% more AP. It's like being able to farm 3 imaginary minions for free every wave that you don't need to cs or interact with (this is further enhanced by Gathering Wind/Absolute Focus which is why scaling mages will choose to go First Strike + abs/gathering secondary). Often mages will be in a 3 item slump as they can't acrew gold at the same rate as other champions in the side lane after completing their 2nd core item, and this leaves them effectively stuck at 2 core items until 30~ minutes at which point they could have 3 core items. This issue is most prevalent on burst mages. If you go any Pen item second you are never reaching Rabadons before the game ends, and if you do so happen to get rabadons later in the game at 30 minutes, the fate of the game is pretty much already decided by then. So the real descion of what item to buy when comes after completing, or even during the completion of the first core item, ludens/liandry etc... If you go Shadowflame 2nd, you are saying that the stats you get from buildilng this item and whatever base you get from trying to buy alternator/NLR WILL win you game over just NLR + elixir/darkseal/amp tome/stopwatch, whereas the Rab 2nd player is saying that the difference in ap between 2x NLR and 1xNLR alternator will not change the state of the game, or will only do so in such a small % of games, it is not worth effetivelly maiming yourself for the next 5 to 8 minutes, at which a more important fight could break out.
Is it better to build plated steel caps against Rumble? Cause I think that the 12% damage reduction from its passive is more beneficial than building mr because rumble reduces it anyway.
What do you actually do to deal with tanky champions though? Magic pen literally feels like I am wasting so much gold on a mage in the hopes of dealing with enemy MR, but you still just do absolutely nothing to them. Why does AD pen work so much better?
items and how you play the fight. Even though some mages (syndra) are worse at dealing with tanks than other mages (orianna) you just need to change the build to deal with tanks better. The typical ludens > sorc > shadowflame > radadon voidstaff > zhonya syndra build is great for popping squishies / bruisers and some juggernauts too. But if you want to deal with a k'sante / ornn you'll need blackfire, liandry's, voidstaff, sorc, shadowflame and. stormsurge. You can't pop a tank, so you need to take them down with several rotations. This makes the burn from liandryfire more effective as they will burn for longer, and you're stacking as much magic pen as possible to try and counter their MR. This is why some champions suck at dealing with tanks, because building liandryfire on syndra will be classed as troll building. Anyway, picking syndra into tanks is stupid. But if you're blindpicking and the enemy picks a comp like Ornn, Sej, Garen, samira naut then you're genuinely better off doing liandryfire with max pen.
after 10 years of play, i saw the dragon head on the Needlessly Large Rod
same wtf
same but i noticed the demon on the back of the vampiric scepter
Just after ending the video i get recommended a video from Makkro with the title ''525 MAGIC RESIST'' XD.
Kaenic Jak’Sho Force of Nature
Also having high ap scalings favours raw ap more vs high base damage where pen is often more optimal
Exactly exactly exactly. So glad someone explained quite well some of the basic ideas of penetrations! Even without damage calc formulas and other math things anyone can see this video and actually understand building a bit better on mages and assassins, which i see very often people (even pros) completely trolling it. Great as always very underrated channel
it's really down to team comp and how much AP ratios your abilities have. Rumble for example can also spike heavily on death cap since his Q AP scaling is 110% but shadow flame just happens to be cheaper and can help with last hitting.
Also, champions with abilities with high base dmg loves penetration.
Me: **Sees average win rate items from sites**
A mathematically correct AP singed doesn't necessarily have a higher average win rate. A mathematically correct Garen shows you should build crit items and one Black cleaver but win rate sites, doesn't even have crit items aside from the occasionally one crit item.(often that anti heal item)
yeah because there's a huge difference between a champion's maximum efficiency and their highest average efficiency. More people will lose games as crit garen than juggernaut garen, because even though crit garen does more damage, he dies quicker. It's a case of optimal scenario vs average scenario.
One thing you have to note: When you build flat Mpen on Kaisa for example, you will force your enemy to build MR and as a result, the enemies won't have armor for your q
Does Kaisa deal magic damage?
@@Woltercore yes! On hit ( passive) missing health (passive and her w
aren't vlads first 2 items normally protobelt and shadowflame? at least last i played they were
it's just different meta tbh.
protoflame is used in fast games (600g cheaper, 3 minutes of perfect cs) for faster spike. protodon gives more value for vlad, but you potentially miss out a game-winning fight.
but yeah in this vid it's not the correct reasoning to compare mpen vs pure ap on vlad.
Meta or what I call, Win rate items are usually safer cause they're tried and tested, and these maths usually don't account for how telegraphed or easy to dodge your spells are or how expensive or situational they're cost, or if there are counters in the enemy side like Wind wall or Gwen W.
Unless you really know what you are doing.
Also, items are a bit like champs, you win if you end the game early like Mejais soulstealer.
@@MangaGamified i just see mejais as bait 99% of the time, the moment you get some stacks ur a big ass target, and i refuse to use something as cheap as zhonyas to survive as a mage unless its literally the only option vs champs like zed/vi
I wonder what gives you more damage when you have full build and 800 ap already - sorcerer shoes or additional item with 100ap?
It's probably more AP since the items give way more stats. Could depend on the champion though
ya pero las botas te dan tambien 45 de velocidad de movimiento
So you say ap scaling physical damage like kaisas q is not good with pen. How is tristana with mpen boots as she deals ad scaling magic damage?
But is it better to build a lot of ap or magic resist against tanky enemies? Is there a difference in building when enemy has a lot of resistances like a ksante with jak sho or a lot of hp like a cho gath with heart steal? Is it better to stack ap against hp heavy enemies and better to go Magic Pen against high MR enemies?
it depends what your champ does and what stats the enemy you're fighting has. If you're against a heartsteel warmogs cho'gath, you won't need more magic pen than sorc shoes gives you, because he's just stacking health on his base mr. In that case you'd build up your AP ratios. If it's a k'sante with FoN and Kaenic then you need to stack magic pen to reduce the effectiveness of his MR.
you forgot to add that the ratio of base damage vs scaling also matters, which is the reason why syndra is one of the best mages to build pen, her base damage compared to her scalings is one of the highest in the game, especially in the mid game where the first spikes come into play
Hmm intresting i always tought that the math for pen was (BaseMR-flat)* (1-%pen) Nice to see that its the other way around.
But also: The more mr the enemy has the less effective flat pen is after more than 150 15pen gives you only 10% more damage where as going from 300 to 360 ap gives you a 20% boost overall (Usually
)
300 ap to 360 ap is not a 20% increase, you have to consider the base damage of the ability too, which in some champions can be considerable. For example, syndra q at maximum level with 300 ap would deal 215 + 180 damage, 60 extra ap would be 36 damage, or a 9% increase in damage.
True depends on the champ.
For high AP ratios what i said is more true. For low ratios the quick math is a bit different.
A lot of these "do more damage" champs cant' build MPen items (also the whole category of "do more damage" champs is a vague: every champ wants to deal more damage, but they won't build full damage because they offer something more valuable than raw damage). If you go Shadowflame/Void second on syndra you are going to be much weaker than a syndra that goes Rabadon's second. This is because every point of AP you buy after completing Rab will give you 40% more ap, effectively making all of your AP purchases 40% more efficient. So you begin ramping up beyond the natural curve of AP that champions without Rabadon's have, because Rab straight up gives you 40% more AP. It's like being able to farm 3 imaginary minions for free every wave that you don't need to cs or interact with (this is further enhanced by Gathering Wind/Absolute Focus which is why scaling mages will choose to go First Strike + abs/gathering secondary).
Often mages will be in a 3 item slump as they can't acrew gold at the same rate as other champions in the side lane after completing their 2nd core item, and this leaves them effectively stuck at 2 core items until 30~ minutes at which point they could have 3 core items. This issue is most prevalent on burst mages. If you go any Pen item second you are never reaching Rabadons before the game ends, and if you do so happen to get rabadons later in the game at 30 minutes, the fate of the game is pretty much already decided by then.
So the real descion of what item to buy when comes after completing, or even during the completion of the first core item, ludens/liandry etc... If you go Shadowflame 2nd, you are saying that the stats you get from buildilng this item and whatever base you get from trying to buy alternator/NLR WILL win you game over just NLR + elixir/darkseal/amp tome/stopwatch, whereas the Rab 2nd player is saying that the difference in ap between 2x NLR and 1xNLR alternator will not change the state of the game, or will only do so in such a small % of games, it is not worth effetivelly maiming yourself for the next 5 to 8 minutes, at which a more important fight could break out.
Is it better to build plated steel caps against Rumble? Cause I think that the 12% damage reduction from its passive is more beneficial than building mr because rumble reduces it anyway.
no its fking not hes most of the time finishing u off with his empowered autoatacks
you're gonna get more value out of swifties than plated steel caps against rumble lmao
what did i just read?
Why is everyone being so mean for asking a question and giving your reason why? The answer is probably not unless their team has more Auto attackers
Tabis only reduce auto attack damage by 12%, not all damage. So no, always build mr boots vs rumble.
What do you actually do to deal with tanky champions though? Magic pen literally feels like I am wasting so much gold on a mage in the hopes of dealing with enemy MR, but you still just do absolutely nothing to them. Why does AD pen work so much better?
items and how you play the fight. Even though some mages (syndra) are worse at dealing with tanks than other mages (orianna) you just need to change the build to deal with tanks better. The typical ludens > sorc > shadowflame > radadon voidstaff > zhonya syndra build is great for popping squishies / bruisers and some juggernauts too. But if you want to deal with a k'sante / ornn you'll need blackfire, liandry's, voidstaff, sorc, shadowflame and. stormsurge. You can't pop a tank, so you need to take them down with several rotations. This makes the burn from liandryfire more effective as they will burn for longer, and you're stacking as much magic pen as possible to try and counter their MR. This is why some champions suck at dealing with tanks, because building liandryfire on syndra will be classed as troll building. Anyway, picking syndra into tanks is stupid. But if you're blindpicking and the enemy picks a comp like Ornn, Sej, Garen, samira naut then you're genuinely better off doing liandryfire with max pen.
w video
Reminder that % armor penetration is applied AFTER flat armor penetration, which makes it, in fact,very inefficient.
I don't think that's true, you should check the wiki
thats incorrect xD read the wiki lil bro or do some testing ingame
@@lolhavoc i looked and I am wrong, thanks, I learned something new!