Which is Greater? Episode 8: Twilight Struggle vs Labyrinth: War on Terror
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- Опубліковано 27 сер 2024
- Matt and Robin are going to war this episode! Twilight Struggle faces off against Labyrinth: War on Terror. Let's just hope they can both avoid going nuclear as they ask... which is greater!?
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As an ex-USAF PJ, who served at a transitional point in history (final years of the Cold War, into the start of the forever war in the deserts and plains), I find it interesting how both games portray their time periods. As a child, growing up in England (I have a complex backstory lol), I remember being told constantly that we were either going to death in atomic heat or nuclear winter. That there was no future. The younger generations weren't subjected to this, so nuclear war might seem "weird" to them, whereas it was something we were told would be inevitable.
I also find it interesting that Labyrinth was designed by a CIA national security analyst, as to me, that shows either deliberate simplification, or a lack of "real data" having been analyzed.
You did a really good job here, bravo ! I would also point out the designer's great commenatary in the rulebook of Twilight Struggle, which says that the rules and mechanisms of the game are indeed deliberately reflecting some outdated ideas and theories of that time: The way China is represented, how the Domino Theory is a mechanism to spread influence and also the chosen perspective of both superpowers to see all other countries as pawns on a chess board. Labyrinth: The War on Terror has more difficulties portraying a more recent history accurately, as it lacks the luxury of decades-long historical hindsight and analysis. As a result, the expansions address this and try to keep the game updated. Example from expansion "The Awakening"'s rulebook, page 5, on the topic of WMDs: "Although Pakistan continues to be a potential source of chemical and nuclear weapons for the Jihadists, Russian WMD devices have shown to be more secure than analysts previously foreboded." -- which does indeed change the setup of the game here, with half of the WMD markers being now distributed somewhere else. One last thing to point out: Labyrinth: The War on Terror can indeed be played solo (with the expansion even as both sides), while Twilight Struggle is strictly a 2-player game.
Labyrinth has a playable solo mode, and the bot in the Awakening update is significantly improved. TS can't be played solo with the original ruleset, and all of the online solo variations change the rules of the game considerably. As two player games, you could pull either one out of a bag and not go wrong either way, but the far superior solo play option gives Labyrinth the advantage.
If you are a solo player.
If you are not, this argument holds zero weight.
My vote goes to Twilight Struggle by a long mile. Because unless you play Labyrinth on a regular basis, it's so full of rules we needed to re-read the rulebook between each game played. Twilight Struggle was remembered even after years of not playing it.
Another excellent episode guys. Well done!
This is really good. I would even go as far as to say with an imporved sound quality you are on the same level as Shut up and sit down
I love both games, they are both on steam! 😎
9:34 One of the things I liked about the COIN game Cuba Libre is you have two different insurgents who need to work together but have different goals.
(edit) albeit you will eventually have to limit the different factions to a limited number meaning merging insurgents together (like the NPA and Moors in People Power) or omitting them out all together.
ua-cam.com/video/FbfLZE_NTRI/v-deo.htmlsi=1qsvDC0eU-TpRnM7&t=3855
'My parent's history'. Makes me feel old.
Sorry, Ryan... :p
Those are some heavy looking games. Not one's for the family game night I'm guessing. Another great video guys.
Shredder - Gaming For Science Definitely not lol! But Twilight Struggle is actually reasonably easy to learn. The weight really comes from just how wide your options are. It's a touch intimidating but so rewarding if you can get into it!
Jesus cries because you don't sleeve Twilight Struggle...
Great video! It reminds me of peak SU&SD, fun and informative.
Excellent video, the humour was perfect.
Thanks so much!
This is rather "Creaking Shelves Struggle" and "Robin: War on Matt". xD.
Great vid, guys, as always. ^^
Twilight Struggle is a living legend of boardgames. I got captivated by its magic since the first time I played it (and I recently managed to get a copy, many years later, but still on time :3). Anyway, I have to rise my voice for Labyrinth: the War on Terror , and its sequels: The Awakening and The Forever War. I'm driving crazy for a copy of The Awakening (it's difficult to get it here in Spain), and I cross my fingers to get it soon. I find these games very interesting: my girlfriend's little daughter is crazy about these games, because she is learning a lot of things about our recent history. I hope the next GMT game in my collection will be The Andean Abyss. I saw the Netflix series, Narcos, and many people have suggested me that game. Anyway, I have enjoyed your video. Nice job, guys! 👍🏻
those news broadcasts are so damn hilarious !!
You guys are awesome
Great video guys! Cool to see you describe heavier games in your same style. Also Four Lions IS great!
Behind the Box thanks! I wish I got more opportunity to play heavy games. As is, there won't be tons of these videos but we'll try and cover more as and when we can
Creaking Shelves that's still cool with me. I never get to play heavy games really so I more familiar with the games in your other videos 😀
I really don't understand why people feel uncomfortable about moving a chit from one square to another or inverting a tiny black hexagon. However, your review helped to convince me to buy Labyrinth and for that, we thank you.
Great to hear! Hope you have a good time with it!
I've not played either but having lived through the 70s and 80s part of the Cold War, I would say that your comments about Labyrinth are probably even more relevant because we are all still living through this now. Perhaps that's why it feels so wrong to you that so much has been overlooked?
It's much easier to forgive omissions when it's something that is finished, the line has been drawn and it's all in the text books.
(Obviously, we're still feeling the ripples...)
Great video guys, thanks!
Really, really great video guys! It's my first exposure to your channel, and I like how you guys capture the light heartedness of Shut Up and Sit Down with out feeling like a knock off. I'm so glad you guys actually picked a winner instead of copping out by leaving it at "both games are equally good. Pick the theme you like better."
Also, you guys made me think about Labyrinth in a whole new way! I've never thought about how it simulates the quagmire of US foreign intervention. You guys brought up great crtiques. My only slight issue is that you didn't mention how Labyrinth has multiple scenarios and that it has an expansion so that you can choose between Bush Era or Obama era of the war.
Ultimately, I agree that TS is better. I'm so glad you guys are highting LWoT too, though! Consider me a new fan!
jacob williams Thanks so much Jacob! Really glad you enjoyed the video! And of course we picked a winner, I didn't buy a Golden Grater to not award it! :P There's sadly always another detail we can mention about a game, we just hope to capture enough to get people interested in finding out more. How is the expansion? I haven't had chance to really look at it.
It's totally legit!!!! I think it's the best expansion of any board game ever made. It adds the events of the Arab Spring (not what sure they call that time period across the pond), which is basically Obama' foreign policy circa 2010. It introduces a lot of cool mechanics like countries reforming themselves or trying to solidify a Muslim caliphate.
That sounds really awesome! Thanks!
Labyrinth has an expansion that covers more recent events. I have it, but have not played the game using it yet. I'm really looking forward to the digital version, which is currently under development. That may be the one that pushes me up update my iPad to iOS 11 if need be :)
Yup! I have played that expansions, The Awakening and The Forever War. Both them introduce the player in the last decade events: the Arab Spring, the civil wars in Yemen and Siria, the NSA scandals, the "drone war", the Wikileaks and Ed Snowden's filtrations... and the war against the Islamic State. If you have the War on Terror game, you can play the expansions along the original game, or alone if you want. Anyway, you will enjoy them, I promise.
The jokes come thick and fast in this video. I can't handle it.
Thanks for the content
Imperial Struggle takes on the winner.
Great video guys. Glad to see it’s not only my board for TS that doesn’t lay flat. Just picked up 1960 the making of a president too and that board appears to be both flat and vertical when laid out which is some achievement 😀 haven’t played labyrinth but love TS.
OMG that board :'D
Creaking Shelves I luckily have a piece of Perspex I used for combat commander that I lay over the top to flatten the board out which solves the problem. Easy issue to forget about though when immersed in what is a truly special game. Keep up the great content and you have a new subscriber!
I thought I’d chime in here even though this comment is 2 years old, but I’ve found that to be the case with a number of GMT games.
great! loved the video! great job
Glad you enjoyed it!
i got a friend, man he looks similar to you (on the right side). you could be brothers.
also the point you tackled about the "truthness" in the scenario (sry for bad english) was a hard one to lay out. you did it very intelligent (as i may say)
very good and smart writing , brah.
1st video of yours I've seen (I was alerted by my subscription to TS on boardgamegeek.com). A lot of fun, and also a lot of insight. (Yep, I subscribed.) The SU&SD inspiration is obvious, while at the same time you're doing your own thing. Great stuff.
I've played TS several times with my 18-year-old son, who is a history buff (and a Socialist at heart.) We loved it. It took us 5 hours every night (we'd play 3 or so hours in the evening, then finish it up in the morning.) We love the strategy mixed with so many historical references. Someone on BGG likened to feel of it to chess, which I think is a good thing.
I haven't played the other game. It looks intriguing. I do think the "jihad" side sounds like a gross simplification of a complex phenomena -- although, I really don't have many ideas about this could be represented with more fidelity in a game like this.
Robert Ahearne Hi Robert! Really glad you enjoyed it! The hardest thing about each of these games is finding someone to play them with so it's great you can play it with your son! Given you're enjoying TS so much you I would definitely recommend giving Labyrinth a go, but then again there is more than enough depth to TS you need never stop playing it!
All-time conspiracies guy?
All time conspiracy guy is actually Robin's evil twin ;)
I personally prefer twilight struggle a lot. Maybe it is, because polish version of labyrinth is VERY BAD TRAMSLATED
Uggh! Bad translations really ruin games. You don't want to be fighting to understand the text when trying to enjoy a game
Damn this was hilarious.
I need them
Can't say I've played War on Terror, but the idea of a game based around a war that is still going on, and that doesn't have particularly cut and dry sides, does sound a little too on the nose. Twilight Struggle, on the other hand, I love. Despite the weird nuclear war win condition.
I could never get into Twilight Struggle but have a copy of Labyrinth that I've played solo many times. I think it is the superior game because of the asymmetry. Can any board game that is trying to capture the nuances of a particular historical period be completely accurate? Of course not. But as a historical simulation, I think Labyrinth is the superior game.
Hilarious, thank you
Not gonna lie, the maze Labyrinth game is pretty fun.
can you do Maria vs Friedrich?
We haven't played many war games so I hadn't even heard of these but they look like a fantastic suggestion! It'll be a while before we get round to them if we do but I'd love to try!
@@CreakingShelves they both have a very nice map :)
ok. I just thought that they would be a very good pair to compare. However they might even be a bit too similar. You also could compare "Here I stand" to twilight struggle and labyrinth because it has the same operation value or card effect mechanism.
If they are mechanically very similar then that is sort of ideal, in a way, as you probably don't need to own both! So which one is greater is a relevant question. I'll do some research and figure out if it'd make a good video, or if it's feasible for us to play them enough on a reasonable time scale.
@@CreakingShelves happy to see that you are interested in this game. I can recommend Maria, because it also has the politics system which is a great extension to the game. And Maria also has in my opinion the better map. And with the Friedrich player who plays a little bit schizophrenic you often find yourself in very different and puzzleling situations with each new game.
But in the end both are great games and in some aspects very different. Friedrich is a more cooperative all against one game (but everyone can win for himself). And Maria is one of the best 3 player all on all (with different alliances on each map (there are two maps)) game I ever played.
@@CreakingShelves I recommend these Army Covers: boardgamegeek.com/filepage/173307/maria-armee-covers11
so that you don't have to keep track on paper about your army strength; you can put some markers behind these covers to do so...
"does they have oil?" should be "are they hostile towards Israel?"
I prefer labyrinth
JESUS CHRIST -- 📏 of The WORLD
Would have been better without the "comedy"
Great video! I love the theme of these games but the mechanics is just rolling dies, gets a bit dry after a while.
More focus on the mechanisms and less on "realism" would've been welcomed.
Both are mechanically incredibly solid, we are talking about arguably two of the best games ever made here after all. For us, it was the "realism" that set them apart. We do try and keep these different aspects of the discussion in some kind of balance though, it is one of the big challenges we face making these videos, and we'll keep trying to improve. Thanks for the feedback!
I think the war on terror game it is better. God bless all those fighting Isis and Taliban God Bless America
I am more TwilightStruggle player but I like to have labyrinth on mobile but it’s not on mobile
Twilight Struggle is NOT a heavy game.
sigh... game weight is a scale without end. These were the heaviest games covered by the channel at time of recording. TS is sufficiently heavy that I wouldn't generally recommend it to someone without a decent level of gaming experience. The rules are not complex, but the decision space is vast and a full game can easily take several hours, especially for new players. We each have our own definition of what constitutes 'heavy', and since we have a fairly broad audience, I err on the side of caution here.
@@CreakingShelves
yeah sure... it's theoretically an open ended scale.
However... at some point stuff just becomes unplayable, so that is just that - a theoretical point.
Twilight Struggle is a heavy game because there's so much unique rules text on the cards.
@@lastburning
That argument also makes Unstable Unicorns a heavy game.
To almost everyone out there, Twilight Struggle is an incredibly complex and heavy game.
To people that have played hundreds of games before, it's easier to get into and it's not the most complex.
... but those people are few out there comparatively. Most people still know mostly just classic Risk, Monopoly and Uno. Twilight Struggle is way up there compared to those. Would not even try to teach it to most people i know.