The Roman Ideal of Female Beauty
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- Опубліковано 15 тра 2024
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This video explores the elusive classical conception of female beauty.
My new book, "Insane Emperors, Sunken Cities, and Earthquake Machines" is now available! Check it out here: www.amazon.com/Insane-Emperor...
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Chapters:
0:00 Introduction
1:07 Helen of Troy
1:56 Ovid
2:24 Greek art
3:36 Frescoes from Pompeii
4:48 Art vs. life
6:09 Trade Coffee
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bro, how were they heating their houses; did they require a wood business delivery? Was the city of pompeii full of smoke from the fireplaces?
I follow a ton of history channels but I gotta say, I think you're the king of coming up with subjects for videos on a regular basis that no one else covers.
can you please share the name of other history channels worth following? others pls feel free to suggest also what your fav is
@@LiviuXSAKings and generals is good for learning about campaigns and conquests, Invicta is another pretty good one. Historymarche has crazy production quality, if you want a podcast "The history of Rome" by Mike duncan is a staple and my favorite when it comes to learning about Rome, its long and fairly thorough.
@@LiviuXSAHistory time is good to but I feel he has a tendency to leave things out here and there but that could just be me nitpicking
Edit: Sandrhoman's videos when it comes to soldiers, war and tactics are some of the best, and his animations are pretty good to. Oversimplified is good to, but as the name suggests it's more of a quick overall coverage. I could find more if you'd like, or if you want a specific topic I could probably find that to, I spend a unhealthy amount of time watching history content 😅
@@LiviuXSA Fire of Learning, Fortress of Lugh, Invicta, Real Crusades History, The Histocrat, History Matters, Thersites the Historian, Epimetheus, Asha Logos, History Uncovered, Dovahhaty, Embrace historia, HistoryMarche, History Time, Archaia Historia, Masaman, Historia Civilis, BazBattles, Epic History TV, Neglected History, LindyBeige, Jabzy.
Have fun!
Dan Davis, Fall of civilizations, and history with Cy included with all the previously named. But imo fall of civilizations is top tier content.
lmao, the Vogue cover, if only we had articles like that from the ancient world, that'd be awesome
I actually thought it was real, like Vogue had a look on roman/greek ancient fashion. I would have read that
I was tickled by Rome hub
@@KingSlimjeezy hermaphrodite porn.
Damn, I didn't know Hadrian was such an avid snowboarder; I thought the Romans were skiers only! I knew Antinous loved to snowboard, but I guess now that I think about it, it makes sense.
the one time Anitinoos went swiming didn't work out so well
@@kleinweichkleinweich Don't have to know how to swim to shred that powder! Extreme! (Now I'm picturing Antinous in a Mountain Dew/Surge/Doritos commercial from the late 90s/early 2000s with a Nu Metal soundtrack)
ua-cam.com/users/shortshfk5qxjALso?si=BOBWrqV_caFq38hw
@@jona.scholt4362
Scandinavians have been skiing for thousands of years, so it's actually not that farfetched.
@@kleinweichkleinweich Haha ! 😅
The "RomeHub" with the "too hot for YT" warning made me spit my tea😂 Also, I'm just curious about the "Key Looks from the Mediolanum Fashion Week" on the Vogue cover. The humor in Toldinstone videos is peerless. 👌
Academics always claim that beauty standards were different in the past (it seems an important academic ritual to state that we can't apply our current values on the past) but when I look at old statutes and paintings I notice mostly commonalities. There are some strange exceptions like the oval faces of japanese art and uncertainty around highly stylized art (Inca, African) but a lot of ancient art, Egyptian, Etruscan, Hindu seems not very alien to modern taste.
Agreed. I think it has something to do for our modern inclination to stress liberalism. For instance, I noticed women usually have long hair across many different cultures and time periods.
@@user-qq8uf2rn9p as far as I am aware for most of history men had long hair too. Ancient Romans are rather an exception. We in the west adopted the “empire” aesthetic of short cropped hair at the start of the nineteenth century. Before that not only men wore long hair, they also used wigs to compensate for nature deficiencies. 😊
True. Youth, light skin, regular facial features and an hourglass body are widespread standards for feminine beauty. Even if exceptions to some standards exist I doubt that there ever was a society that didn't had youth as a feminine beauty standard.
It's trivially easy to demonstrate that standards of beauty are different across time and place. You don't need to look as far back as the Etruscans; just look at differences in hairstyles and apparel between, say, 1980, and today. Or how fair skin was at various points considered highly attractive, whereas today many women go to tanning salons.
Similarly, large breasts were considered unattractive in (certain) Roman periods, since they were associated with older women, but now they are considered desirable by many.
@@Unknown-jt1jo Yes it is obvious that there are different fashions and cultural changes too. I'm just tired of historians stressing how we can't apply our current thinking to the past. For one part that is obvious, as you say, and for another part it is not true.
Great episode, I want to thank you while I was just a student in school I loved ancient history, but fell out of love with it for years, because of your vids I am now more in love with ancient history than ever before, eternally grateful!
Sad there was no mention of the prevalence of the unibrow as a Greco-Roman beauty standard
Back in 2003 I took "Busabout" through Europe (that was a long time ago, but it was good for college-age tourists).. When we crossed the border into Italy, the guide warned that young ladies, especially those with blond hair, might be the object of unwanted attention. Some things never change I guess.
Theres tons of blondes in Italy...especially in North Italy, where they constitute the majority of the population in many areas. I find it quite funny this stereotype - almost always coming from the US - about Italians only having brown hair. I always have american friends acting surprised when they come to Italy and realize that blonde hair are quite common, just like Italians with asian traits or black or latino etc. Italy is a quite multiethnic place, and it has been for millenials.
@@DavideGobbicchi Almost all Italian immigrants to the Americas came from Southern Italy, where dark hair and somewhat dark skin are the norm. Those are the only "Italians" that most people in the United States have ever seen, so it's natural for them to presume that that's what Italians in Italy look like as well.
@@DavideGobbicchi Yes, though strong, thick dark hair has something to do with past genetics dealing with weather; much like darker skin in Africa copes much better with scorching heat than paler europeans...and it's interesting too, that chestnut coloured horses have more fragile skin, and prefer sun on their backs rather than harsh winter cold...
@@DavideGobbicchi The blondes in Italy are rare, many italian blondes are dyed, not naturally blondes. Only one or two regions have many natural blondes. This can easy verified observing that there are more italian female blondes than male ones. This is because the italian women usually have brown or black hair, like the men, but due to fashion, many women dye their hairs, because men found them more attractive.
@@DavideGobbicchi The north of Italy is of Slavic origin, most of them have the R1a haplogroup, as you go south, Africans start to predominate.
Me trying to explain to my girlfriend why I think she's beautiful:
😭
Ahhh ! 😂🎉 It's that tragic expression of loneliness and disdain when you turn on the football.
@@anjou6497 ?
I always appreciate your pragmatic attitude toward the evidence you present. It makes your channel a valuable source of entertainment
Looks like the ancients had interesting uses for jars as well...
Only the truly cultured will appreciate this comment.
dodgy comment
They had to make use without shoeboxes
"You must go for that little blue jar, Patton's Kiss and Tell" (Donald Fagen)😃
I finally got your new book. I’m very excited for it. Your first book was such a blast to read.
I just wrote about the same so I very much agree.
I had to watch as soon as this popped up! I love watching your videos. Please continue to enlighten us. Between you and Mary Beard, I've learned quite a bit visually, as I read Suetonius, Livy and Tacitus.
I think we should try to find "Hadrian's Halfpipe"
Well the Scots play bagpipe so I think we'll have to search somewhere up north.
Every Friday, I look forward to these videos.
One of the best ancient history channels!!, keep it up. Cheers!
I just bought your newest book to read on vacation!! Love your content keep it up
Another great video! And hearty congratulations on your book.
This was tastefully done. I'm glad it was fully aware of the nuance that exists in history. Great video!
Babe, wake up! New toldinstone just dropped
So funny 🤣🤣🤣🤣 xdddd I have never heard that before. You r really funny
Cringe
THEY HIT THA PENTAGON LYLE!
Great video! Excited to do a tour with you!😊
This is so good. Thank you!
Love your work!
5:08
I love this visual lol
For the record, old hair styles are about being able to afford a stylist, not looking good. The big hairdos of the 80s looked goofy and that's a firsthand account.
"being able to afford a stylist, not looking good" I highly doubt that is the only reason. They're known to sacrifice comfort to look good.
"The big hairdos of the 80s looked goofy and that's a firsthand account."
For you but not for me.
Full of 💩
If you think the hairdos of the ‘80s looked goofy you never watched pictures of the previous decades.
Or of Trump. 😂
80s hairdos were the pinnacle of beauty. We truly live in society expunged of culture if we're now claiming they are anything but
Great job on this video.
Great video on a great subject.
Thank you thank you thank you!!! I’ve been wanting this video for so long! I love your content so much ❤❤❤❤
ooo this is gonna be a good one
Thanks for posting unique history videos.
❤❤
Avery interesting subject, well presented.
a good book on the matter of the different social periods is Storia della bellezza. Umberto Eco (2004, co-edited with Girolamo de Michele) and of course his partner Storia della bruttezza (Bompiani, 2007) they really show via language, art and history the conceptions of beauty
Take the words of a postmodernist with a grain of salt.
I want Romehub now
i needed my fix! also by his books they are great fun.
Interesting topic. A problem for the video is that most of the pictorial depictions are not from Ancient Rome or Ancient Greece, but from Romanticized 19th century re-imaginings of what they wanted to think Romans and Greeks were like.
Love your stuff, you monotone man, you.
thank for your info. good clip~!
I didn't know I needed that Hadrian edit
I'm glad you also mentioned greek sources. I believe both cultures are worth mentioning in this topic.
I'm surprised YT didn't throw a fit at the Venus statues.
When the Romans reached Germania (their name for the lands of Germany), they brought to Rome captured Germanic women as slaves, who were natural blondes. The Roman men liked these blondes a lot. The women of Rome understood this with a grudge, considering unfair competition. The first to adapt were the prostitutes of Rome: they dyed their hair to be blonde. As result, in Rome from those days, "blonde locks" became synonym with prostitute, literally!
Poppaea Sabina, Roman empress as the second wife of the emperor Nero, was hated by many people, with some justified reasons, if I remember right. She also started to dye her hair to be blonde, to the great satisfaction of her enemies, because "blonde locks" was already in use to define prostitutes.
And yet to the present day, Italian men seem very attracted to women who have blonde and even red hair. I received a lot of attention when I went out on the street because of my auburn hair, even from men half my age.
The Romans never reached "Germania". They tried twice, the first time no one came back, the second only Caesar and a dozen others. The Germans are also a people of smoky origin, in today's Germany everything that is beautiful and blond is actually of Slavic origin.
@@serahloeffelroberts9901 And if you had just seen an auburn woman,when I appear with steel blue eyes and a height of 190 cm.
@@serahloeffelroberts9901Red hair isn’t at all uncommon in Italy.
I would be interested in hearing about tattoos in the ancient world. Thank you.
If im not mistaken i believe one of his older videos touched on the topic. You might want to check his channel
Only the unwashed/unimaginative barbarians of the north would have found them acceptable, I'm sure. Let us hope the current fad of doing so becomes ancient history itself.
@@jrodowenspeople have tattooed themselves for thousands of years so i doubt it will stop 😂
Love those Fayum Poraits
delicious, when it comes to coffee, is also a fantasy... it all depends on who with, where and how you are drinking!
Please do next about male beauty
Beauty ideal’s most have changed infinite times during such a long period!
Beauty standards always change over time. I can remember the 60s when women were expected to be well proportioned and thinnish but not athletic or fit.
theres a difference between what the loudest people are shouting and what people actually think. in the 60s the loudest people were shouting that women should be a certain way, not fit, but men all really felt that a fit woman is more attractive than a not-fit one. the biological hard-wired desire for a young, healthy, fit, intelligent woman doesnt change with politics or decades.
That’s still how it is. It’s not like dudes are out there seeking girls with “athletic” bodies. More like “not fat” but I suppose some girls think that means becoming some kind of bodybuilder, but no guy wants that
@@noahkreb6827I'm the guy. I'm the guy that wants that.
@@brianmahoney4156how do you know what they all really felt?
@@twosharksinatrenchcoat No the male beauty standard is whatever women wanted, do you think that men don't know what men get the most attention from women?
There are indeed objective standards of beauty.
In every known human culture, a woman's hips are expected to be wider than a her waist, while a man's shoulders are expected to be wider. Per a documentary I saw years ago, Masai men (considered effeminately skinny by Western standards) and both sexes in Samoa (considered overweight) conform to average world ratios (incidentally, the waist/hip ratios of Marilyn Monroe and Kate Moss were determined to be the same).
The same documentary also explored the imporance of symmetry between features. A Victorian experiment of finding the "typical criminal" by averaging hundreds of photos together resulted in a face better looking than expected. More recently, a complex calculation of several dozen symmetrical relationships between the eyes, nose, and mouth was applied to the photos of about 20 celebrities, and results matched what most people would think instinctively (FYI, the celebrity closest to Perfect Beauty was Mariel Hemingway).
'A Victorian experiment of finding the "typical criminal" by averaging hundreds of photos together resulted in a face better looking than expected.' I don't think that supports your argument.
@hilariousname6826 Why not? With a high enough sample, the deviations from a perfect face start canceling each other out.
How on earth does the idea that the "typical criminal" is 'better looking than expected' support the idea that there are 'objective standards of beauty'? At best, it seems a circular argument.@@screamingalgae9380
@@screamingalgae9380 I'd be wary of most claims of their being a globally objective beauty standard. Can get really uncomfortable if it goes in a bad direction. Lol.
Politely requesting a video on Alexander's conquests in the far eastern ranges, like Arrian's account of the Sogdian Rock.
Thank you
I always found it strange that images of beauty from antiquity share vastly more in common with modern standards of beauty (19th century onwards) than medieval standards of beauty even though we are much more culturally connected to the societies of medieval Europe.
It’d be nice to know about the male beauty standards in Rome as well.
I remember reading some years ago that big butts were very appreciated in classical Greece. They even held a female competition during the Olympic Games, and in one occasion, the twin daughters of a shepherd tied and had to do a rematch.
I find that funny because I feel like that’s something society tends to appreciate as well, in both women and men, and a big butt competition could easily be happening now.
*Cue Sir Mixalot and Nicki Minhaj*
Yes there is an aphrodite statue, the kalipigos, which is translated as the one with a beautiful butt. She was mentioned and shown in the video.
beauty, as understood here, is a phenomenon of culture, not the personal beauty of an individual... I would say, what is described fairly well outlines the norms "beauties" may have strived towards... especially in a more courtier like setting... though I do wonder whether, as with Mythological Nudity, some of it is a form of symbolism of how something is meant to look in art/legend rather than real life. the image of the Roman girl and the sort of makeup she would use drawn by Amici, certainly does not seem to so much align with the more Goddess like statues and pictures associated with classical Rome, but then, one has to wonder whether that is also a case of more literary-allusive elite tastes being rather divergent from the plebian tastes, where somewhat stronger forceful features gained prominence...
either way, I think the Roman model of Beauty served as a founding for a lot of more modern European aesthetic (both genders) up to the early 20th century... certainly, it appears far more "normal" than when talking about the aesthetics found to be beautiful for a Lady of the Japanese high Courtiers(which, if you are not used to it, can appear totally alien to one), or Chinese, or even that traditional in medieval Muscovy from what we gather
Speaking of beauty: this was the first time I’ve seen your face! You’re a handsome guy!
Garrett, you left out the statue of Pauline Borghese by Canova in the Borghese Palace in Rome.
hey toldinstone, did romans every have environmental regulations? Would projects be blocked in fear of destruction of ecosystems or pollution in city centers?
I'd expect, at the very least, they'd be against something that would obviously poison their water.
@@kanrakucheeseYou'd think so, but I remember reading about Roman Iberian mines that blackened the nearby rivers and filled the skies with soot. I'd love to see a video about it.
Not really! Ancient Rome was really, really nasty: it wasn't rivalled until Birmingham and Manchester et al in the 19th century, which were genuinely terrible places pollution-wise. The amount of smog was absolutely incredible.
I remember reading that Caesar banned carts inside the city limits of Rome because they were big and noisy and dropped horse poops everywhere.
Other than that, I don't think a civilization which doomed itself by turning every forest area into farmlands in Italy, cared much about the environment.
can you please tell me the name of the intro song?
A bit misleading. Clearly, since our artists consistently reproduce the art of the Romans and Greeks, there is significant overlap, not difference, between our ideas of female beauty. The differences between Pompeii's frescoes and Ovid's recommendations also show a similar range to ours.
While I agree to some degree with the idea that the past is an alien planet, sexuality is one of those things that remains relatively constant for most people, with the exceptions emerging on the fringes or as status signaling.
She's a dangerous beauty. Deadly
Francis Lauer from Brazil was here. (13th - III - 2024)
I was always taught that beauty comes from within.
if she looked anything like Diane Kruger from the "Troy" movie with Brad Pitt than yes... yes she would.
There was some reference to the Romans liking British slaves, with their pale skin, particularly the ones with red hair, because of the way they looked....Though for health reasons ,someone able to produce vitamin D with very little access to sunshine would be a great advantage...less risk of deformed hips ,etc(?), also the metal associated with Venus is copper, and the Sun ,Gold...so they would also be seen as auspicious colours?
Celts in Italy are sun cancer farms.
Will there be a part 2 about roman men's beautiful?
I'm guessing tanned/dark skin would be on that list.
The Venus Callipyge is quite callipygian!
Many Greeks around Thessaloniki are actually blond or with light hair. Some say they had Gothic influence.
Goths and Bulgarians: Do you know why?
This topic, female beauty was prob THE most questioned subject in every class I taught, because as you noted, what is considered beautiful is vastly different from one period to another, once country or province, one culture to another and students (any age) get lost in superficial details. With the female body they - we - have all been taught HOW to look at the Female from the Greeks (as they also taught us how to know what a Male body is (and for 100’s of years it was always one of immaculate power and perfection. With the female it is considerably more culture based - to the Ancient Greek the sight of any nude female would have been highly unlikely, unless it was their wife or paid courtesan. Women had NO role in Greek society (well outside of Sparta, but that’s another story) even at its height in Athens if you walked down the street one in four people might have been a free citizen - if they were male - the rest, the other three? Females, slaves, children, barbarians, in other words, not YOU. And if you saw a nude/naked woman, well … Dr Andrew Stewart wrote an engaging chapter on this topic, not quite the wit and charm you have Garrett, but good enough to get me thru my classes - and all I had to tell them was the Greeks gave THEM the right, the thrill, the unexpected privilege of seeing a nude woman, however she may be proportioned or appear - “she” is not for their eyes, and this is quite beyond that old ‘male gaze’ concept of years ago, it is a timeless vision you were never meant to share for she is, indeed, a goddess. And just who are you?
As always Garrett, you are a gem, merci mille fois!
Hey Toldinstone, saw you on Forehead Fables and I love your content. Can't wait to order your books (I can read.) Hope to see you on the cast again someday, even if it's just to promote another book. Love combining your straight-man energy with those three morons.
Callipygian is still a word in English. Though today one could simply translate it as "THICC".
That last statue is straight up ancient Roman 'Thicc Venus" by definition.
Also did I hear that right? There's an official record of some dude trying to 'do' the statue? 🤣
No - it was recounted pointedly as not from an 'official record'.
They were into headbands, for sure!
Interesting picture of the brothel bed in Pompeii. If I remember correctly there is another one that is simply carved from a big stone. That's bewildering to me. If I were going to construct a bed the LAST thing I would make it out of is stone or masonry. Didn't they have any wood??
They would lay hay or any other kind of soft plant in a big sack and use it as mattress, like we did before latex and modern mattresses.
It’s quite possible that the woman bent over the lightly padded platform, or crouched on it , with the client behind her. Time is money in a brothel.
"Good gods, I don't think I ever want to see an amphor of wine for the rest of my life. I hope no one saw me buggering that statue last night..."
2000 years later in a short doc about beauty standards in your country....
I never thought I would see censorship on this channel
2:50, Has this statue of Aphrodite require repair, or are the seams merely the requirement for multiple pieces of marble?
uma das pinturas de "beleza" se parece MUITO comigo.. nunca achei que encontraria uma imagem tão parecida, uau.
obs: sou considerado comum hoje em dia.
what the .... 0:33
hahahaha
Always fun to imagine what hypothetical future archeological and historians would conclude about our supposed beauty standards, hundreds of years into the future, if primarily a tiny fraction of higher class writings and art survived, and basically all of it by men.
Question: Are there any records of ancient greeks and romans putting actual clothes on their scuptures?
Short answer is Yes, but the only specific example I know is the statue of Athena at the Parthenon.
The enchanting Arabian beauty of Julia Domna.
5:06
Omg you showed your face !!! You good looking bastard!!
"Romehub" 😂😂👏
As the video’s author reminded to us, “Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”. Personally, I like the facial features of the Slavic and Germanic women, and I have to mention it, to explain why the women of Rome never looked special to me, as they were shown in statues, mosaics, paintings and pottery.
Visiting the ancient Roman section of the Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York City), I looked to a row of heads from statues of Roman women. To my surprise, many faces were beautiful! Then, at that row, I saw a plate with the explanation, something like: “After 200 AD, the artists started to IDEALIZE the features of the women, not representing reality as before.”
Ha, ha, ha, that is why those Roman women looked so good!
Rome loved those PAWGZ.
I think it is a liitle bit deceiving to view the availlable (especially naked) female images of this time as beauty standards. They simply portrayed what they got. Frina was the most beautiful woman who was ready to pose naked but not THE most beautiful woman.
In times of hunger and disease a first-class beauty as we know it today was VERY rare, almost impossible to have. I am sure, the privilege to see the super-top beauties of that time was restricted to a very closed circle of very rich and powerfull aristocrats.
If You look at the Hollywood beauties of the 20s and early 30s (ordinary looking women according to today's beauty standarts) and a (very few, mostly family portraits) images of the top-class beauties, planned to be married to members of the establishment of that time, You will understand what I mean.
I'm gonna Roooooooome!
Biggest difference between what makes a jaw drop now and then would likely be fitness. Tight dummies, shapley shoulders, long well-muscled but slim legs would have been quite rare in a society where elite women did not exercise regularly. The Greeks were worse but Helen was married to the king of Sparta. Yet she was not a Spartan woman. Many of THEM would make jaws drop today. But they were also admired by delegations from Athens who'd likely never seen an extremely fit woman before 😉
I live in Jamaica where even the cheapest coffee is pretty good.
Since the Classical Greco-Roman world, but Rome especially, produced naturalistic sculptures and realistic sculptural portraiture, we can easily see what standards of beauty were held desirable during that period. Thought less naturalistic, even the artistic conventions of the preceding Archaic period reveal ancient ideals of beauty. They are very like our own today. Proportioned face, not too broad, symmetrical features, high cheekbones, straight nose, defined lips, big eyes. Alternative to large eyes: almond-shaped eyes. The standards for beautiful women have been set since long before the Roman Civilization. Just look at La Dama De Elche from Iberia circa 500BC. If you want to look at Rome, look at the emperor Hadrian's wife Sabina, of whom many sculptural portraits were made. She was extremely beautiful by today's standards. Today's standards may have been finally formed in the Bronze Age after 45,000 years of sexual selection.
there are cultural aspects of beauty and natural timeless aspects of beauty. women that are considered beautiful today would've been considered beautiful at any time. style, weight, age preference, these things can change through time and culture, but the basic bone structure of beauty remains the same. look at Botticelli and ancient roman frescos. ie beauty like all things is paradoxical, beauty is both cultural, and is a timeless platonic form.
Personally, I take these "what was the ideal female beauty" with a grain of salt. How many articles do we get of what the "ideal modern female beauty".
5:15
Could you make a Roman ideal of male beauty?
Female beauty could be measured, according to the Guinness Book of Records I read growing up. A "millihelen" was beauty sufficient to launch 1 ship, being 1/1000 of the power of Helen to motivate a navy of 1,000 ships. I wouldn't be surprised if the Guinness folks were coining the term in jest.
Isaac Asimov claimed to have invented that one.
Honestly your voice reminds me of Jonathan Haidt.
Ah you miss the opportunity talking about Nymph. What I've known about Hellenic Mythology, Nymph is the elite personification of beautiful environment.
Roman Vogue: "Heavenly bodies" LOL
You almost have - half million subs too!!? Wtf!!!
I'm a simple guy. When I see a new toldinstone video, I click