In fact future space superiority fighters would have dual flightsticks due to ability to maneuver in more than just yaw, pitch, roll with directional thrusters. The pedals will be used for throttle up (right), down (left) and brake (middle). You made the right choice by looking far into space flight sims. I'll get the dual flightsticks to save space. However, games like DCS would need HOTAS as we can't see the thrust level on the HUD nor any indicator in percentage apart from panning full left on the screen. What's your advice for me?
When you play the game, the screen shows that most ships have two sticks. So you need two sicks if you want to match what the game is showing you on the screen.
there is a SC pilot in germany using dual joysticks like the ones in this video, the throttle, a stickypad, that razer minikeyboard thing. total over the top. but this ist SC. where people spend 300 euros for a nice looking .jpg ;)
I switched from a Hotus setup to twin sticks - and I love it now. The problem with a Hotus is that I flew my space ships like an airplane, always forward. Using twin sticks I now take full advantage of being in a space craft.
Makes sense. There's reason most construction equipment has adopted the two stick control method. Those guys dont mess around d when it comes to efficiency!
The only reason is that you can't provide enough axis on one stick for really operating an excavator. But you still got pedals on every excavator for the drive system. You also got pedals for auxiliary hydraulics on smaller machines, which are replaced in bigger machines by buttons on top of the sticks for operation with your thumb or other fingers.
I use dual T16000M, and I absolutely LOVE them. Trip Rodriguez has a 4 part video series that teaches you how to configure them from start to finish. The thing really made it all click perfectly for me was the curve adjustments. The deadzones REALLY help to. Without those adjustments I had trouble sticking to targets, aim wise, but still had knifelike precision control with strafing on a 2nd joystick.
I've been a HOTAS pilot for several years now so when I tired dual sticks it just didn't work for me, I'm just too used to my HOTAS and pedals. That said I can see how you'd really like this setup as it gives very nice fine control without having to do a twist axis which never felt right to me.
Thank you for the thorough and simple video, this helps a lot. I like that you clearly showed us the mapping for your main controls and actually showed them in use so we could see how it looks real-time, in-game. Much appreciated.
Love you no BS approach to Star Citizen game play. You have saved us numerous hours and a lot of money trying out different configurations. I will adapt to the dual joysticks approach because I hate the keyboard/mouse game. I am a Subscriber because of your no BS way of explaining things.
I have a HOTAS setup (Saitek X52 Pro) and its great. It has Pitch, Yaw and Roll all on the one stick. And I use the 8 way hat on the throttle for strafing. I have not however, tried a duel stick setup. Did you end up buying one?
Read my comment up above. I posted your same question on the internet about 9 months ago. I own both and if I was more of a PVPer Id go HOSAS but have recently moved to HOTAS (all VIrpil) with a Panel 1. I am proud and in awe of my setup and often hear them calling me when I walk by.... "play with me, PLAY WITH ME"!
Thank you for the video..I like your take on each possible way and seeing the agility with the 2 joystick helped me decide what to choose. You are not the only one saying 2 joystick is one of the best setup.
OMG A standing desk sounds AWFUL! I stand and walk ALL DAY at my job and the last thing i want to do when i get home is STAND ON MY SORE ASS FEET! Just the thought of gaming at a stand up desk makes me think about how I used to play the game kiosks at Walmart when I was a kid... And how after 5 mins of playing I was DYING to enjoy the game in a SEATED POSITION! Next thing you know they are paging my damn Mother on the PA system because I was sitting on a charcoal grill I found on the next aisle over! Wide eyed and terrified I sat soaking up as much Goldeneye 007 as I could before she arrived. Only glancing away from the screen long enough to ensure the manager wasn't going for the lock on the plastic door that held the console ... ...Man... I had a great childhood... I'm really glad I typed this comment.
@@driveandkill depending on your posture and the shape of the chairs, it also puts either a lot of weight across your legs and buttock, or all of that pressure on your buttocks. So if all you do is sit all day, it can also feel tiring and slowly cause internal problems. We gamers tend not to look after ourselves in that respect. It's important we do, and not just so we dot get more bad media about how were addicted or that gaming destroys lives or some other over the top crap...
I just got the VKB Gladiator NXT sticks. Left stick has the omni-throttle conversion so it sits more like a throttle, but it's an exact mirror image of the right stick, just at a 45 degree angle. There are very good entry level sticks. About $300 for both. Right stick is orientation: X is roll, Y is pitch, Rotation is yaw. Left stick is thrust. X is lateral, Y is throttle, rotation is vertical (because the stick is turned, it's very intuitive). Absolutely love the setup. Perfect for space sims, and works fine for flight sims as well (you can modify the sticks so they retain their position like a throttle as well. I prefer using the built in mini-throttle switch as a "modifier" that allows me to set a base throttle level and use the stick to adjust from that zero point.)
I was seriously considering this. I had a HOTAS set up with a 40 dollar thrust-master. It felt incredibly under-powered compared to controller, and mouse and keyboard. Then I met my wing man, who no matter what I did, he could always out maneuver me. We both flew sabers with the SAME set up. His skill was greater, but he was able to pull off the flourishes i desired. He flew double stick, and it seems its growing. Thank you for your investments, and tho mine are not as costly as yours, I do have to agree with you whole heatedly. I haven't gotten dual sticks, but it seems it will be my style of play. If i didn't say so, thank you for the video. You helped me make a decision.
Great video! For people wanting to try dual stick on the cheap, try Saitek Cyborg V1's. I went them because they weren't L or R handed, have a variety of buttons (7 each +hat+throttle) and were super cheap ($25/ ea.). After setting up the control sensitivity, they feel pretty good (outside of them being pretty cheap) Recently I even picked up a old PS2 driving wheel with pedals and after a little work (very little, EASY), robbed the pedals and rewired them into one of the joysticks to control the Throttle and Brake.
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 No problem. They certainly aren't the best sticks out there, but for the cost, they are a decent way to get set up before committing to more expensive setups.
I own a fly by wire (and now out of production) Saitek X-65F which was about $450 brand new and a set of Saitek combat rudder pedals. I dont know if its because the stick doesnt actually move at all and that you can dial in whatever kg/f for your pull pressure to super fine tune the joystick to be as sensitive or as "dead" as possible on the fly, but its exactly as precise as I could ask for. Being a real life pilot, also helps with the already ingrained muscle memory. I think dual stick would be counter productive to someone like me, but I also think its because I can transfer instant direction changes because the stick doesnt use springs and its already ready to accept inputs without actually having to move the stick "X" amount of distance to the corresponding location in 3D space for the input you're looking for. Changes are about as fast as moving your hands a few mm in the desired direction to exert that force on the stationary force sensing stick.
I highly, *highly* recommend mounting your sticks in a way so that you can rest your elbows somehow. You are going to lose a ton of precision trying to move the flight controls with your entire arms.
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 Hmm, hard to tell without a better angle, apologies is that's what you are already doing. Doesn't look like it, though: i.imgur.com/Pqwgqeb.png i.imgur.com/9XlcP9D.png
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 I like this video because, in my opinion, the big lesson here is that ultimately you have to do what you enjoy and what works for you, then make adjustments to it to become competitive if that's your goal. That said, I do have some critiques, not on your control scheme, because you seem to have tried a lot of things and, like I said above, have determined what works best for you. But. We really need to be careful about calling bindings "thruster up/down", "thrust fwd/back", etc. These are not accurate descriptions of these bindings, even in decoupled mode. I know it sounds pedantic, but propagating these things are reasons why people still think the throttle directly controls the main engine, and the distinction between that and reality makes a difference with how people fly and fight. Strafe up/down, fwd/back, etc. You do not directly control any thrusters at any time in any mode. You are telling your ship which way you want to go and it decides which thrusters to use. Sometimes this could be a completely different set of thrusters than the direction you are indicating. It's complicated why, but that's the truth. We have an IFCS video coming soon that will help explain it. Again, great video and thanks for sharing. . . I never thought of going Yaw/long strafe on the left hand but looking at it while you fly, it actually doesn't look too shabby.
I watched this video a couple of years ago and new eventually this is the route I wanted to go. Well it happened and it was easier than expected as the T.16000 now has a Single stick, HOTAS, or dual stick option. I got the dual sticks for around $120 US on amazon, (Free with amazon points!), and wow what a difference from my old saitek keyboard setup. I believe I heard somewhere that many of the internals are the same as some of the higher end Thrustmaster setups but everything else is plastic to knock that cost down. For anyone looking to get into a serious setup for flying I would suggest these sticks if on a budget or not sure if this is the way to go but for 50 dollars a stick they are better than anything I have had before. Thank you again for this video as its a great look into why.
That setup looks super interesting and if I had the money to both play SC and have twin joysticks then it would be well worth the effort, time and whatever else possible from the experiences.
super helpful video - I ended up trashing my Hotas years back and giving up because my ship kept blitzing forward in hangars and exploding or reversing full thrust in space. Im going with duel stick for my return to star citizen again. I finished the vid then realized its 7 years old!!!! How wild is that! haha - Ive stop playing off and on a few times since the kick starter. Lets hope were finally going to see some major updates in the next year.
Thanx for your great vidz! Just want to share something. I fly dual since 4 months and it's perfect, your video is totally right. I have discovered a really intuitive way of using the pedales ( since I bought the same as you in my previous attempt to find a set up): for straffing up ( right) ans down ( left). Mostly use for landing etc, but since it s perfectely intuitive ( it doesn t messed up with your brain like for roll or yaw) you can ad it sometimes in dogfight. I know it seems odd but give it a try it 's very natural and .. immersive.. thanx for your great work!
Who is this exquisite creature that enters the scene at 0:07? Also, nice video! Using a G13 + T16000 myself, its pretty nice. But I feel like I might need to try dual-sticks, just to see if it suits me.
+Celanis Hugsalot That dude is Montie.. as in the "Full Montie" scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/10604009_10154558504535061_5844007202042704326_o.jpg
I had quite a lot of success with the Logitech G13 pad with Elite. When I upgraded to the Warthog throttle and stick I was actually quite disappointed that it wasn't as usable in a space sim as the mouse and keypad was.
I know it's been ten months, but I found this video very helpful. I did not come to the same conclusion, but you helped put me on the right track. Ultimately I ended up going with a combination of HOTAS / Keyboard & Mouse. For non gimbaled weapons I use HOTAS, and for gimbaled weapons I simply switch my right hand (Stick) over to the mouse. Currently strafe right left and up down are mapped to a single four way switch on my throttle. Keep up the good work Noobifier!
Using a full Virpil HOTAS setup, I don't feel the need to go HOSAS at all. I have analog sticks for strafing, and use twist for roll or yaw depending on the spaceship and if I'm flying in atmo or not. Sure, I might become 5% better at PvP with HOSAS, but since I don't care about that aspect whatsoever, it really doesn't matter. I can easily get to the last wave of Pirate Swarm (the Idris), alone, in a light fighter, with my setup. Plus, I can use the same setup for regular flight sims.
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 You should check out the x-56 rhino thats releasing 30th of may. Its made for space sims (Basically just an updated x-55) I am thinking of getting it for star citizen and other flight sims.
I just got my dual stick setup. was going to go with virpil but went with the t16000m fcs duals to save money and make sure i wanted to commit to this or stick with mouse and keyboard. I barely beat vanduul swarm in 40 minutes with the two sticks ending on my last life with one wing left using a saber. did mouse and keyboard and beat it same ship no deaths in 19 minutes. i came back to these old videos to see how you did it. Well it sounds like trigger time is the answer. I guess im at that stage you were at when you went back to being totally novice but stuck with it until you got good. time to get some flight time in. one more thing, I saw you playing project cars 2 in VR and thought i would pick that up. holy cow that's awesome. I feel like i can take off the braking line in VR as i have better depth perception. its really neat. your channel is awesome.
The axis on the left stick don't really make sense no matter how you set them up imo, forward/backward and left/right makes sense as those axis, but twist doesn't really logically bind to any axis imo, some people use it for strafe up/down but that doesn't match well for me, Also it's going to get tiresome at some point to hold your left joystick forwards to keep going forwards, will probably need a button to override the throttle to 100% for crusing, or disable the centering spring. Kinda weird mixing translation and rotation on the 2 hands imo, I prefer to keep all rotation on the right stick and all translation on the left stick/throttle, but I guess without twist you can't do the same. Frankly I've yet to find a setup out there that matches what I want, so I'm making my own, I'm making basically a HOTAS setup but the throttle looks like a joystick and moves forwards/backwards on a linear rail with a bump in the middle for neutral, and has an analog thumb stick at my thumb's resting location for strafing, I've ordered all the parts I need and I'll 3d print the rest, going to make some additional control panels with buttons as well.
+Christian Gerefalk For me, it felt weird at first but I got used to it in a day or so. I have it bound so that twist counterclockwise is strafe up and vice versa. I sort of visualize it like I'm turning a big screw, because righty tighty lefty loosy is already in muscle memory. Holding the strafe stick forward to go forward is definitely my biggest problem with dual joysticks, but if I want to go forward for a long time I can just use one of the sliders to set my throttle. I only really rely on strafe forward when in a dogfight, because with your throttle set to 0 you can stop and start strafing backwards without taking your hands off the joystick, which is really handy sometimes.
+kiwishizzle I do the same, for long distance flying I have the throttle on the left stick shift. For combat I'm staffing forward / backwards with the stick. I find it very easy to constantly change velocity to help stay behind someone or increase turn speed. I also get to side strafe at the same time to dodge. I find it all much easier and more intuitive than a throttle plus thumb stick for the same functionality.
+Christian Gerefalk There are a few solutions to the throttle issues. 1. Bind Throttle to a slider axis and use that as cruise control for long flights. 2. Use the keyboard for throttle. 3. While flying at your desired speed quickly tap decouple and let go. When you recouple the throttle is set to your current velocity. You'll just have to tap the throttle to stop.
+Christian Gerefalk I know what you mean about holding the stick forwards for flight. I have found a pretty good solution in my set up. If you have the T16000M, you can set the stick for forward/back/left/right strafe. And you can set the throttle to the slider. If you ever need to cruise anywhere, just flick the slider to 100. Heading into combat? Then slide it to zero and use the stick to strafe forward.
3m sticky tack on the bottom of the thrust master will keep it in place until you get chair mounts. Same thing for me, went from HOSAK to HOSAS and it just clicked. Learning to tweak the curves and deadlines are the biggest hurdle as it's all custom preferences but worth it The dual space sim kit from thrust master is a super cheap. Great video!
I don't see the point of getting a TM Warthog unless you're a hardcore combat flight simmer. That stick is specifically designed for sims like DCS, BMS, or Flamming Cliffs. If you're not playing those it seems like a waste of money.
yes and no, it still is multi-function and people buy is because it is high quality and high fidelity... and they have the cash the thrustmaster t16000 has the same accuracy as the warthog but lighter and cheaper which is why it could be a better option though more lacking in buttons and has a different feel
I got mine since 4 years now and played with it at least 4000 hours so far and it still feels and looks like it did on the first day. There's no better joystick around for this price. If I'm wrong, give me a link, please.
Great video Noobifier. I have to say I don't think you made any stupid mistakes. The only way you can evaluate any of these setups is by trialing them. I for one appreciate the feedback your "mistakes" have allowed you to provide to the community which will no doubt help other cogs like me make an informed choice right off the bat. For others exploring different HOTAS and duel stick set up's, I have also found vids by Lykosar really useful as well and recommend dropping by his channel for some very useful dogfighting tips and set up advice.
I bounced off HOTAS like a pitbull trying to make it through a trampoline (spectacularly, completely, and in about half a second), and switched straight to two sticks--so I can testify that transitioning to 2sticks is immediate and natural, no matter your degree of HOTAS experience. We're all already practiced at it from handling ingame cameras with dual-analog game controllers! Maybe someone who's literally never played a game before might take longer, but overall, two sticks is the most graceful solution to orienting in 3D space. I prefer both my sticks to twist so one can be yaw and one can be vertical thrusters, though. Makes docking in Elite a little bit like carefully setting a mug down :p
2 T16000m joysticks + voice attack for flying. Strafe up/down/left/right and throttle on the left. Other movement on the right. Using gamepad for FPS. This setup seem more natural for me. At the end is whatever feels right when you play.
Any reason why you'd be using a controller over mouse and keyboard for FPS? Seems a bit counter productive, considering you're playing the game on a PC and mouse/keyboard is the more accurate/precise option.
Dual T.16000Ms here. I'm so glad I decided to get the second one. I have pitch and yaw on the right stick with twist for roll and strafe forward/backward left/right on the right stick with twist for up/down. Seems the most intuitive to me but I get your desire not to use the twist.
I use HOSAS on Descent, Overload, and Sublevel Zero. So tight spaces and some open spaces, a lot of reverse thrust as well as strafing, tight corridors, and the need to change orientation a lot. I found a hosas setup that works quite well. I don't see why it wouldn't work on Star Citizen as well. Left stick - X axis is strafe, Y axis is throttle, Z (twist) is up/down Right stick - X axis is yaw, Y axis is pitch, Z (twist) is roll
I'm doing much the same thing but on PS4,while the DS4 is great and all I figured I'd try out a dual joystick setup just to play Star wars Squadrons the two joysticks I"m that I'm going to use are a AVS Aviator for both PS3 and PC and a vintage Logitech Wingman extreme (yeah it uses the gameport for connection but I'm going to solve that with a gameport to USB adapter) coupled with a keyboard and mouse for extra buttons. (and a third DS4 along with IOGear's Keymander for that adapter).
I've become a much better pilot, too, since I switched from my X-55 HOTAS setup to dual sticks. (I still use my throttle as third unit because I don't have pedals yet and because I like the switches for the non-combat stuff.) Flying feels much more natural now. It's difficult to describe how big the difference really is. Great video once again by the way!
I'm about to make my own 2023 version of this video. Dual stick is better in space than HOTAS but there are plenty of HOTAS that give you best of both worlds...Hotas with mini stick. including the very cheap TM fcs16000 w/TWCS. The key is that the Throttle needs an Xbox controller mini stick. One just like on your controller. So you will have your throttle to control your main forward/backward thrusters and your mini stick to control vertices and horizontal thrusters. It works very good , especially when the mini stick is aimed forward. So you use the Throttle to control 6Directions of Thrusters and the more precise joystick to aim the ship and shoot.
Nice VIC 20! I've been switching between hotas and hosas(?) over the past few weeks and my dumb hand/brain connection just can't shake twist to roll which I've been using since twistable joysticks became a thing. Right now I seem to be doing best with my x52 throttle and a cheap Logitech Extreme 3D pro.
Thank you for all the setup types that you have displayed. It has made my set up of dual sticks much more easy. Still having trouble but the dual setup has been an improvement in my game play in Star Ctizen
i brought a Hotas ages ago i whent back to mous and keyboard i generally fly a freelancer a fairly heavy ships slow turn speed so having full control of gimbals is soooo much better !
I always thought a hotas was wrong for star citizen. Seems like a great atmospheric flight control system, but there are more options in space. So I'm considering between a dual stick, or stick and mouse with pedals and leaning to the latter. proposed control scheme: - mouse as normal yaw/pitch - left stick roll and strafe up/down - hat switch strafe left/right/forward/back - trigger boost, double tap afterburners - right pedal analog throttle - left pedal brake Thoughts?
Sounds like a what is called HOJAM it is a very good control scheme. What is 00% sure is that I agree with you. A HOTAS IS FOR planes. We will have to see how the SC joystick thing turns out.
I took my Saitek X-55 off my desk and screwed down off to the front sides of my chair just like on a real fighter jet. My grip the controls much better and with less fatigue. I have since then grown too used to my X-55 and really love it.
I only borrowed this from sitting in an F-16 at an airshow plus model researching photographs of the same aircraft. The F-22 is exactly the same where the stick and throttles are placed.
Nice vid. I started Star Citizen with keyboard/mouse, but couldn't fly very well. I picked up two Thrustmaster T.16000Ms and fell in love with them. It just feels so natural. I'm thinking on getting Voice attack soon. Been using ROCCAT Power Grid to control power, shields, etc with my phone atm.
+Drew Juszkiewicz nice, power grid is super slow compared to VA. The difference is that you don't need to take your hands off the controllers, plus it's as quick as you can speak. Thanks for posting up.
I had a bit of a weird situation finding my ideal setup. My dad always wanted to be a pilot so he's spent a lot of time with flight simulators. Anytime he let me fly it was with a full setup. Stick, throttle, pedals, the works. So when I started playing SC on my own pc everything felt wrong until I had my own setup. Now that I have two sticks, a throttle and pedals the controls just disappear and my ship feels like an extension of me.
I am rocking the Thrustmaster T16000 FCS HoTAS setup, coming from a fresh slate for the most part, I found not having an ingrained set of muscle memory to be extremely beneficial. That said, I did purchase a second Thrustmaster T16000 to see how I would like a dual stick setup. As it is right now, I find I don't mind the pedals, but it certainly has a high learning curve for someone not used to flying in this fashion.
I use dual stick set up. I was also kicked from an Org. because I was happy with the stick setup and they were trying to get me to buy a hotas of which I told them to wind their necks in. I have the T 18000 on my right and a mad catz V.1 on my left. The T18000 was £35 and the V.1 was £25. They both work well together and I also lick the fact that the V.1 has a button (7) on the pistol grip which I use for decoupled mode.
+Magill2571 That ORG sounds really odd. You should always run whatever makes sense to you. Quick access to decoupled is very important. Thanks for sharing your setup.
I feel like the setup could also be influenced by the ship you have in game so an arrow pilot might want a hotas, an avenger pilot would want the dual sticks and a freelancer pilot might want a yoke
Great video as ever ! I started exactly like you and I currently own a warthog and a T16000. Dual stick is the best experience for SC in my sense, at least if you make a bit of dogfight ! HOTAS suits best cargo run, maybe, but why should I limit to this gameplay. Currently, I'm looking forward to receive dual constellation alpha from virpil. I'll see if I keep the throttle or not ;) Thanks again :)
You wanna make it so you can watch your videos on a moveable resizable screen ingame. Got all of Red Dwarf on a playlist working last night, epic gaming goodness. Also browse with it, i was more interested in playing videos myself.
I'm currently testing whether I prefer dual stick over HOTAS. I've used an X-55 RHINO HOTAS for over 18 months and it feels like an extension of my body. However, I've also borrowed a Thrustmaster T-16000 from a friend. Honestly, dual sticks still feel awkward after 10-12 hours of play time. I've tried several different configurations of the left stick and I'm just now finding a configuration that's comfortable to me. Right now, I fly almost exclusively decoupled. My left stick axii are X-Axis = Left/right strafe, Y-Axis = Vertical strafe (Inverted) and Z-Rot = forward/back Strafe. Honestly, my skills on the dual stick still need training to be anywhere near my HOTAS level. I was really excited to see the X-56 with the analog sticks, but I can't afford a whole new setup at that price.
So you were absolutely right so I pretty much maxed out my skills on the KB.... then as i was intoxicated i found my old wireless (Freedom2.4 Joystick) At first i might have thought it might have been to old for SC then after trying its hilarious i went from being able to fight 2 pirates max at once to 7 at once with ease the mix of the KB with the Joystick is wonderful.
when i first got my Logitech X52 hotas for elite dangerous, i had been playing with a controller for 400+ hours. It took me weeks to get used to it, but suddenly, within a weeks time, my piloting skill went from mediocre to almost as good as it was with 400 hours with a controller (however with a hotas im objectively more accurate). No matter what hotas or controller setup someone uses, their skill will ALWAYS increase with TIME. Great video, i just watched it to see how your hotas experience with star citizen was
Due to unrestricted six axis maneuvering in space, it may benefit from dual joysticks. That is if you're doing a lot of XYZ axis translations for trick maneuvers. (Are you left handed? The controls should be reversed!) However, with realistic air flight, nothing beats pedals, throttle, and joystick. Still, an experienced flight sim pilot can still give you a run for your money. Space Sims in general are designed to mimic air flight and combat.
This is so incredibly personal preference. Personally, there is no way I could aim anywhere near as well as I can with a keyboard/mouse if I was using a HOTAS, dual joystick or gamepad. I do however find flying itself easier and more enjoyable using the HOTAS, but I just find it much more difficult to aim.
Its not even personal preference. Real pilots use pedals throttle and stick for a reason. And it's not that they can't afford a second stick in their 65 million dollar plane.
Thanks man, just getting into the game, gonna try this. Game feels great on M/K, not as great on XBOX controller, but it seems like 2 sticks could be the way for me since I don't play any other flight sim games.
I haven't tried them in Star Citizen since I can't find good place for both keyboard/mouse and joysticks but I did enjoy a dual stick setup in Elite Dangerous. Although in that game it got too exhausting (due to the inherent slow pitch/yaw of the ships) so I switched back to keyboard/mouse. It just feels like the best solution even for space sims and especially Star Citizen: lots of controls, easy to look around without track-IR/VR, mouse accuracy/sensitivity, etc.
I am trying it out during freefly since I never bothered to buy it. I really enjoy the game and in the future will buy it when I have the money as well as probably getting a dual joystick setup just because the ships are all made with them.
Excellent advice....I've been on the fence for some time over whether I should invest in some flight hardware. I have a reasonably priced option thanks to your vid. Only thing left is the stick time.
Went back to your old vid to see how you setup the control axisis. After watching your other vids on flight sticks I now have the VKB gunfighter 3 space (right) and the T1600 (left) Ordered the T1600 dual set, so have a spare that can be converted to left if need be. So far so good except for the twist axis on the VKB has caused many disconnects of the stick power. Have cranked the locking cam down as recommended but still had stick power disconnect issues. Ended up using the included screw to lockout the VKBs stick twist. Also used a little vaseline on the three contact points between stick and base for added conductivity. May fabricate my own fixed wired connection between VKB stick and base.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 longer throw contact pins with slightly stronger mini springs may work. Not sure if the twist is actually causing a disconnect of one or two pins or it's something else going on inside the stick? Oh well, Virpil might be my next stick for left if T1600s don't last. Was thinking another VKB...not now.
I really want a dual stick setup right about now. It will definitely take much time adapting to it (cant handle full hotas setup accurate and good enough) from keyboard mouse setup.
TBH, a person will always do best with whatever setup they're the most comfortable with. Though, yes, one should try every option available to them and it shouldnt take more then a short while of actively using a setup to determine if it's natural and intuitive to their individual preference, which should be the defining factor. Intuitively interacting with absolutely any system is more critical to an individual than any other consideration. More intuitive means less thinking about how to do it, and more thinking about WHAT you want to do and just doing it.
Yeah I agree with you, dual joysticks are the best configuration for PVP as I own two Virpil Alphas. BUT later I purchased a Virpil throttle (CM3) tied to a Panel 1 and I find THAT configuration more immersive and just plain funnererer for "Star CItizen". So my response to you is that it depends on your type of gameplay as Star Citizen is more than just PVP. Ill never be a top dog PVP'er but that is not my goal. CHeers.
Great video, I'm still figuring out what I want and this was exactly what I was looking for as a reference point. Keep up the awesome work man, it's really helpful.
I use a Logitech Extreme 3d on the right hand and a Logitech Attack 3 on the left and it's a wonderful setup. Yaw and roll are on the 3D and strafe and speed controll are on the Attack 3. It's a good starter setup because it only costs about 60 bucks and the attack 3 is leftie friendly and is not twistable, which is a good thing because you only need one twistable stick, so there is no confusion about that.
If you're not a real pilot who's used to pedals for yaw, and are totally new to space sims, I think it makes the most logical sense for one stick to control translation (movement) and one stick to control rotation (camera). Of course, for you real pilots, there's nothing stopping you from using two sticks *_AND_* pedals for yaw.
Hungry Guy Yep! This was my experience. I used the Xbox controller for Elite in just that way until mine started crapping out, and I got tired of still not having quiiiite enough analog inputs and having my vertical thrusters on tap-tap-tap. Switching to two cheap twist-sticks was as big a relief as cleaning really dirty glasses. Now I don't have digital inputs for ANY of my thrusters! No more blaming the interface for getting blown up, though.
Interesting review, and I get the part about using pedals would be cumbersome for yaw in space flight. I use a HOTAS without pedals, I also use the X axis of my stick to yaw. Pitch and yaw are the most important in a space sim so I have them on X and Y. Roll is rather unimportant in a zero G environment so I just leave it as twist. I'm a pilot in real life and at first I had it set like traditional aircraft controls but then I found myself banking and yanking for turns which is totally unnecessary in a space sim. You'll even notice the control movements in the cockpit in game are setup to yaw with left and right stick movement. It took a little getting used to but after 30mins or so I had it down. As for using a self centering stick for throttle, I can imagine that would get tiring really quick, what if you want to be moving along at 75% power through and asteroid field? you fighting the centering force the entire time to keep that setting, with a proper throttle, you can set it and it will hold it's position. Just my 2 cents.
I love the thrustmaster t16000m platform because I can switch from hotas to dual stick any time, and rudder pedals work with both, just by switching profiles
This is so dope the funny thing is I just learned about this game and fell in love. Wanted to pick up flight sticks but wanted to see if it was worth it or going that other thing this video helped a lot hope to see u in there Man
the hall-effect sensors in the t-16000 and warthog are really where its at. if someone would make hall-effect thumbsticks, rather than use cheap potentiometers, controllers might be more competitive. they do give great ergonomics and immediacy of access but they always fail on mechanical precision.
Jaromír Anděl yes, I am in contact with them. As per your suggestion, without 3DOF per stick, it's more difficult to isolate rotation and translation into left and right. Can you offer me an example (no pedals)
Well, I'm going from controlling real space machines. (Like it is in space shuttle mission simulator or orbiter) There are just 2 sticks. One for rotation and one for translation. Yes, I use MFG Crosswind rudder pedals, because my main game is DCS:World with WWII aircrafts and helicopters. I just hoped it will help. Sorry.
+Jaromír Anděl their sticks have 3 each though. Warthog and VirPil have 2. They have shipped a set of sticks for review last week. You are the first to know from the public. I will be producing reviews and guides on their products shortly. I will also work hard to design logical controller schemes. I hope that you stay tuned and provide feedback in the future.
aside from Sublight Dynamics you can also take a look at omnithrottle by VKB. for left stick it can be a Throttle but in addition it has left right axis as well as twist (like a motorcycle)
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In fact future space superiority fighters would have dual flightsticks due to ability to maneuver in more than just yaw, pitch, roll with directional thrusters. The pedals will be used for throttle up (right), down (left) and brake (middle). You made the right choice by looking far into space flight sims. I'll get the dual flightsticks to save space. However, games like DCS would need HOTAS as we can't see the thrust level on the HUD nor any indicator in percentage apart from panning full left on the screen. What's your advice for me?
When you play the game, the screen shows that most ships have two sticks. So you need two sicks if you want to match what the game is showing you on the screen.
For slightly more immersiveness they should allow dual sticks to be an optional customization for all ship interiors.
They're not "stupid mistakes" if you learn from them :)
+CRAMDIME true
Maybe not stupid but kind of costly :)
there is a SC pilot in germany using dual joysticks like the ones in this video, the throttle, a stickypad, that razer minikeyboard thing. total over the top. but this ist SC. where people spend 300 euros for a nice looking .jpg ;)
+emergcon lol
But if you can you should learn from others mistake
I switched from a Hotus setup to twin sticks - and I love it now. The problem with a Hotus is that I flew my space ships like an airplane, always forward. Using twin sticks I now take full advantage of being in a space craft.
Makes sense. There's reason most construction equipment has adopted the two stick control method. Those guys dont mess around d when it comes to efficiency!
The only reason is that you can't provide enough axis on one stick for really operating an excavator. But you still got pedals on every excavator for the drive system. You also got pedals for auxiliary hydraulics on smaller machines, which are replaced in bigger machines by buttons on top of the sticks for operation with your thumb or other fingers.
@@bl4cky89 I still don't know how people grade with foot pedals. Wizards i tell you.
@@mr_rivv practice lots of practice
I use dual T16000M, and I absolutely LOVE them. Trip Rodriguez has a 4 part video series that teaches you how to configure them from start to finish. The thing really made it all click perfectly for me was the curve adjustments. The deadzones REALLY help to. Without those adjustments I had trouble sticking to targets, aim wise, but still had knifelike precision control with strafing on a 2nd joystick.
People don't want to hear it, but dual stick is superior to all other setups. The CIG HOTAS should have been a CIG dual stick.
Thanks for the video. Your time and money were not wasted, you did some great research.
Thanks, I hope you find your perfect controller setup easy.
i probably will get two t16000M sticks as well.. thanks dude !
with a dual joystick setup, what is controlling what?
AND! The important part, shared it. So that we all might benefit too. For that we must thank him.
I've been a HOTAS pilot for several years now so when I tired dual sticks it just didn't work for me, I'm just too used to my HOTAS and pedals. That said I can see how you'd really like this setup as it gives very nice fine control without having to do a twist axis which never felt right to me.
maybe take the spring out of your throttle stick so i doesn't return to the middle. Then it will feel more like a normal throttle.
why use the twist axis if you have pedals?
that is a sick setup dude
Pedals really made the difference for me. I use them like a heli. Can swivel and use them for up and down.
I'd probably use two sticks and pedals. Use everything if you can.
Thank you for the thorough and simple video, this helps a lot. I like that you clearly showed us the mapping for your main controls and actually showed them in use so we could see how it looks real-time, in-game. Much appreciated.
Love you no BS approach to Star Citizen game play. You have saved us numerous hours and a lot of money trying out different configurations. I will adapt to the dual joysticks approach because I hate the keyboard/mouse game. I am a Subscriber because of your no BS way of explaining things.
I am seriously considering buying a hotas, but the duel joystick setup looks very effective !
I have a HOTAS setup (Saitek X52 Pro) and its great. It has Pitch, Yaw and Roll all on the one stick. And I use the 8 way hat on the throttle for strafing. I have not however, tried a duel stick setup. Did you end up buying one?
Read my comment up above. I posted your same question on the internet about 9 months ago. I own both and if I was more of a PVPer Id go HOSAS but have recently moved to HOTAS (all VIrpil) with a Panel 1. I am proud and in awe of my setup and often hear them calling me when I walk by.... "play with me, PLAY WITH ME"!
Thank you for the video..I like your take on each possible way and seeing the agility with the 2 joystick helped me decide what to choose. You are not the only one saying 2 joystick is one of the best setup.
OMG A standing desk sounds AWFUL!
I stand and walk ALL DAY at my job and the last thing i want to do when i get home is STAND ON MY SORE ASS FEET!
Just the thought of gaming at a stand up desk makes me think about how I used to play the game kiosks at Walmart when I was a kid... And how after 5 mins of playing I was DYING to enjoy the game in a SEATED POSITION!
Next thing you know they are paging my damn Mother on the PA system because I was sitting on a charcoal grill I found on the next aisle over!
Wide eyed and terrified I sat soaking up as much Goldeneye 007 as I could before she arrived. Only glancing away from the screen long enough to ensure the manager wasn't going for the lock on the plastic door that held the console ...
...Man... I had a great childhood... I'm really glad I typed this comment.
gotta get a sit to stand desk. best of both worlds. i have a motorized one from ikea that can adjust to any height on the fly
I love it
if you sit at work all day you want to rather stand at home because your back will kill you for sitting all day :D
@@driveandkill depending on your posture and the shape of the chairs, it also puts either a lot of weight across your legs and buttock, or all of that pressure on your buttocks. So if all you do is sit all day, it can also feel tiring and slowly cause internal problems. We gamers tend not to look after ourselves in that respect. It's important we do, and not just so we dot get more bad media about how were addicted or that gaming destroys lives or some other over the top crap...
Yeah and if you SIT all day for work, then stand desk is fucking sweet.
I just got the VKB Gladiator NXT sticks. Left stick has the omni-throttle conversion so it sits more like a throttle, but it's an exact mirror image of the right stick, just at a 45 degree angle. There are very good entry level sticks. About $300 for both.
Right stick is orientation: X is roll, Y is pitch, Rotation is yaw. Left stick is thrust. X is lateral, Y is throttle, rotation is vertical (because the stick is turned, it's very intuitive).
Absolutely love the setup. Perfect for space sims, and works fine for flight sims as well (you can modify the sticks so they retain their position like a throttle as well. I prefer using the built in mini-throttle switch as a "modifier" that allows me to set a base throttle level and use the stick to adjust from that zero point.)
"It was stupid expensive"... 3+ years later - making video's about VIrpil products....
Literally lol
Hes lucky though now he doesn't even pay for them, Virpil and VKB send them free of charge. It's a marketing thing.
It WAS stupid and expensive to buy the Warthog. It's all cool until the gimbal breaks and refuses to center.
They (TM) also don’t do much to honour the warranty, so it’s expensive to service.
@@NOOBIFIER1337 from a companies point of perspective they did everything right.
I was seriously considering this. I had a HOTAS set up with a 40 dollar thrust-master. It felt incredibly under-powered compared to controller, and mouse and keyboard. Then I met my wing man, who no matter what I did, he could always out maneuver me. We both flew sabers with the SAME set up. His skill was greater, but he was able to pull off the flourishes i desired. He flew double stick, and it seems its growing. Thank you for your investments, and tho mine are not as costly as yours, I do have to agree with you whole heatedly. I haven't gotten dual sticks, but it seems it will be my style of play. If i didn't say so, thank you for the video. You helped me make a decision.
+syrusmarks1 excellent. Thanks for taking the time to post up your story. I hope you found a controller without plateau
Did same with T16000 and Logitec 3d pro. cause I'm left handed. works great, have loved it for almost a year now.
You still playing with that setup?
Great video! For people wanting to try dual stick on the cheap, try Saitek Cyborg V1's. I went them because they weren't L or R handed, have a variety of buttons (7 each +hat+throttle) and were super cheap ($25/ ea.). After setting up the control sensitivity, they feel pretty good (outside of them being pretty cheap)
Recently I even picked up a old PS2 driving wheel with pedals and after a little work (very little, EASY), robbed the pedals and rewired them into one of the joysticks to control the Throttle and Brake.
+Wild MonkeyDog I am totally checking into that as soon as I get to a proper Desktop PC. Thanks
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 No problem. They certainly aren't the best sticks out there, but for the cost, they are a decent way to get set up before committing to more expensive setups.
I do indeed like your no bullshit approach. You and Subliminal are my favorites. (he has light bull shit, but also does in depth content I like.)
I just got into SC about a month ago and have been debating this setup. You convinced me!
3:32 Wait! Did you just switch up left and right? I'm confused
I own a fly by wire (and now out of production) Saitek X-65F which was about $450 brand new and a set of Saitek combat rudder pedals. I dont know if its because the stick doesnt actually move at all and that you can dial in whatever kg/f for your pull pressure to super fine tune the joystick to be as sensitive or as "dead" as possible on the fly, but its exactly as precise as I could ask for. Being a real life pilot, also helps with the already ingrained muscle memory. I think dual stick would be counter productive to someone like me, but I also think its because I can transfer instant direction changes because the stick doesnt use springs and its already ready to accept inputs without actually having to move the stick "X" amount of distance to the corresponding location in 3D space for the input you're looking for. Changes are about as fast as moving your hands a few mm in the desired direction to exert that force on the stationary force sensing stick.
I have moved on from Thrustmaster to VirPil. I find dual J completely effective.
I highly, *highly* recommend mounting your sticks in a way so that you can rest your elbows somehow. You are going to lose a ton of precision trying to move the flight controls with your entire arms.
+Legacy Instructional Series My arm rests on the table.
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 Hmm, hard to tell without a better angle, apologies is that's what you are already doing. Doesn't look like it, though: i.imgur.com/Pqwgqeb.png i.imgur.com/9XlcP9D.png
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 I like this video because, in my opinion, the big lesson here is that ultimately you have to do what you enjoy and what works for you, then make adjustments to it to become competitive if that's your goal.
That said, I do have some critiques, not on your control scheme, because you seem to have tried a lot of things and, like I said above, have determined what works best for you. But.
We really need to be careful about calling bindings "thruster up/down", "thrust fwd/back", etc. These are not accurate descriptions of these bindings, even in decoupled mode. I know it sounds pedantic, but propagating these things are reasons why people still think the throttle directly controls the main engine, and the distinction between that and reality makes a difference with how people fly and fight.
Strafe up/down, fwd/back, etc. You do not directly control any thrusters at any time in any mode. You are telling your ship which way you want to go and it decides which thrusters to use. Sometimes this could be a completely different set of thrusters than the direction you are indicating. It's complicated why, but that's the truth. We have an IFCS video coming soon that will help explain it.
Again, great video and thanks for sharing. . . I never thought of going Yaw/long strafe on the left hand but looking at it while you fly, it actually doesn't look too shabby.
Not based on your video. Both of your arms are clearly off of your table.. Are you doing that specifically for our viewing pleasure?
Great dual stick or even hotas chair mounts
monstertechusa.com/product/joystick-hotas-chair-mount/
I watched this video a couple of years ago and new eventually this is the route I wanted to go. Well it happened and it was easier than expected as the T.16000 now has a Single stick, HOTAS, or dual stick option. I got the dual sticks for around $120 US on amazon, (Free with amazon points!), and wow what a difference from my old saitek keyboard setup. I believe I heard somewhere that many of the internals are the same as some of the higher end Thrustmaster setups but everything else is plastic to knock that cost down. For anyone looking to get into a serious setup for flying I would suggest these sticks if on a budget or not sure if this is the way to go but for 50 dollars a stick they are better than anything I have had before. Thank you again for this video as its a great look into why.
That setup looks super interesting and if I had the money to both play SC and have twin joysticks then it would be well worth the effort, time and whatever else possible from the experiences.
super helpful video - I ended up trashing my Hotas years back and giving up because my ship kept blitzing forward in hangars and exploding or reversing full thrust in space.
Im going with duel stick for my return to star citizen again. I finished the vid then realized its 7 years old!!!! How wild is that! haha - Ive stop playing off and on a few times since the kick starter. Lets hope were finally going to see some major updates in the next year.
"HOSAS is the ultimate system" until you play any non-space simulator
Thanx for your great vidz!
Just want to share something. I fly dual since 4 months and it's perfect, your video is totally right. I have discovered a really intuitive way of using the pedales ( since I bought the same as you in my previous attempt to find a set up): for straffing up ( right) ans down ( left). Mostly use for landing etc, but since it s perfectely intuitive ( it doesn t messed up with your brain like for roll or yaw) you can ad it sometimes in dogfight. I know it seems odd but give it a try it 's very natural and .. immersive..
thanx for your great work!
+PAINTINGISDHEAD People who sit down should totally get a set of pedals if they can. The more control the better.
Who is this exquisite creature that enters the scene at 0:07?
Also, nice video! Using a G13 + T16000 myself, its pretty nice. But I feel like I might need to try dual-sticks, just to see if it suits me.
+Celanis Hugsalot That dude is Montie.. as in the "Full Montie" scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/10604009_10154558504535061_5844007202042704326_o.jpg
I had quite a lot of success with the Logitech G13 pad with Elite. When I upgraded to the Warthog throttle and stick I was actually quite disappointed that it wasn't as usable in a space sim as the mouse and keypad was.
hmmmm I have long wanted for a HOTAS but dont have the dollars yet...
I wonder if I should try dual stick in stead :S
Dual stick!
Gt Omega sim chair, Oculus Rift, X55/Fanatec Wheel. Absolutely mind blowing.
@@thechurchofsupersampling whats mind blowing ? the wheel or the price-tag ?
I know it's been ten months, but I found this video very helpful. I did not come to the same conclusion, but you helped put me on the right track. Ultimately I ended up going with a combination of HOTAS / Keyboard & Mouse. For non gimbaled weapons I use HOTAS, and for gimbaled weapons I simply switch my right hand (Stick) over to the mouse. Currently strafe right left and up down are mapped to a single four way switch on my throttle.
Keep up the good work Noobifier!
+James Taggart interesting and thanks for posting. Thanks for watching
2 sticks all the way, like you said it just feels natural
Cause you have one stick already xD
Using a full Virpil HOTAS setup, I don't feel the need to go HOSAS at all. I have analog sticks for strafing, and use twist for roll or yaw depending on the spaceship and if I'm flying in atmo or not. Sure, I might become 5% better at PvP with HOSAS, but since I don't care about that aspect whatsoever, it really doesn't matter. I can easily get to the last wave of Pirate Swarm (the Idris), alone, in a light fighter, with my setup.
Plus, I can use the same setup for regular flight sims.
Welcome to the club brother! If you figure out how to get a lefty Warthog, let me know!
+BuzZzKiller I will keep you in the loop. Right now its a couiple of people who want including Sgt_Gamble and Brickyard
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 You should check out the x-56 rhino thats releasing 30th of may. Its made for space sims (Basically just an updated x-55) I am thinking of getting it for star citizen and other flight sims.
Is it ambidextrous?
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 Im affraid not, but it has analogue sticks on your thumbs. Both the stick and throttle, so you wouldnt need a 2 stick setup with it.
Man, I'd kill for a lefty warthog too. I'm rolling dual T16000 at the moment, upgrade would be sweet.
I just got my dual stick setup. was going to go with virpil but went with the t16000m fcs duals to save money and make sure i wanted to commit to this or stick with mouse and keyboard. I barely beat vanduul swarm in 40 minutes with the two sticks ending on my last life with one wing left using a saber. did mouse and keyboard and beat it same ship no deaths in 19 minutes. i came back to these old videos to see how you did it. Well it sounds like trigger time is the answer. I guess im at that stage you were at when you went back to being totally novice but stuck with it until you got good. time to get some flight time in.
one more thing, I saw you playing project cars 2 in VR and thought i would pick that up. holy cow that's awesome. I feel like i can take off the braking line in VR as i have better depth perception. its really neat. your channel is awesome.
Keep with the practice.
The axis on the left stick don't really make sense no matter how you set them up imo, forward/backward and left/right makes sense as those axis, but twist doesn't really logically bind to any axis imo, some people use it for strafe up/down but that doesn't match well for me, Also it's going to get tiresome at some point to hold your left joystick forwards to keep going forwards, will probably need a button to override the throttle to 100% for crusing, or disable the centering spring. Kinda weird mixing translation and rotation on the 2 hands imo, I prefer to keep all rotation on the right stick and all translation on the left stick/throttle, but I guess without twist you can't do the same.
Frankly I've yet to find a setup out there that matches what I want, so I'm making my own, I'm making basically a HOTAS setup but the throttle looks like a joystick and moves forwards/backwards on a linear rail with a bump in the middle for neutral, and has an analog thumb stick at my thumb's resting location for strafing, I've ordered all the parts I need and I'll 3d print the rest, going to make some additional control panels with buttons as well.
+Christian Gerefalk For me, it felt weird at first but I got used to it in a day or so. I have it bound so that twist counterclockwise is strafe up and vice versa. I sort of visualize it like I'm turning a big screw, because righty tighty lefty loosy is already in muscle memory.
Holding the strafe stick forward to go forward is definitely my biggest problem with dual joysticks, but if I want to go forward for a long time I can just use one of the sliders to set my throttle. I only really rely on strafe forward when in a dogfight, because with your throttle set to 0 you can stop and start strafing backwards without taking your hands off the joystick, which is really handy sometimes.
+kiwishizzle I do the same, for long distance flying I have the throttle on the left stick shift.
For combat I'm staffing forward / backwards with the stick. I find it very easy to constantly change velocity to help stay behind someone or increase turn speed.
I also get to side strafe at the same time to dodge. I find it all much easier and more intuitive than a throttle plus thumb stick for the same functionality.
+Christian Gerefalk There are a few solutions to the throttle issues.
1. Bind Throttle to a slider axis and use that as cruise control for long flights.
2. Use the keyboard for throttle.
3. While flying at your desired speed quickly tap decouple and let go. When you recouple the throttle is set to your current velocity. You'll just have to tap the throttle to stop.
+Christian Gerefalk
I know what you mean about holding the stick forwards for flight. I have found a pretty good solution in my set up. If you have the T16000M, you can set the stick for forward/back/left/right strafe. And you can set the throttle to the slider. If you ever need to cruise anywhere, just flick the slider to 100. Heading into combat? Then slide it to zero and use the stick to strafe forward.
i wouldn't mind seeing your creation when you are done ;). i see you have uploaded a video nvm
3m sticky tack on the bottom of the thrust master will keep it in place until you get chair mounts.
Same thing for me, went from HOSAK to HOSAS and it just clicked.
Learning to tweak the curves and deadlines are the biggest hurdle as it's all custom preferences but worth it
The dual space sim kit from thrust master is a super cheap.
Great video!
I don't see the point of getting a TM Warthog unless you're a hardcore combat flight simmer. That stick is specifically designed for sims like DCS, BMS, or Flamming Cliffs. If you're not playing those it seems like a waste of money.
yes and no, it still is multi-function and people buy is because it is high quality and high fidelity... and they have the cash
the thrustmaster t16000 has the same accuracy as the warthog but lighter and cheaper which is why it could be a better option though more lacking in buttons and has a different feel
more durability on the warthog, that's why.
The warthog is all plastic inside and not really durable at all actually.
I got mine since 4 years now and played with it at least 4000 hours so far and it still feels and looks like it did on the first day. There's no better joystick around for this price. If I'm wrong, give me a link, please.
Great video Noobifier. I have to say I don't think you made any stupid mistakes. The only way you can evaluate any of these setups is by trialing them. I for one appreciate the feedback your "mistakes" have allowed you to provide to the community which will no doubt help other cogs like me make an informed choice right off the bat.
For others exploring different HOTAS and duel stick set up's, I have also found vids by Lykosar really useful as well and recommend dropping by his channel for some very useful dogfighting tips and set up advice.
nice cat.
That thing is ugly AF
Noted! I'll look into dual sticks!
awww what's the kitty's name? :)
I bounced off HOTAS like a pitbull trying to make it through a trampoline (spectacularly, completely, and in about half a second), and switched straight to two sticks--so I can testify that transitioning to 2sticks is immediate and natural, no matter your degree of HOTAS experience. We're all already practiced at it from handling ingame cameras with dual-analog game controllers! Maybe someone who's literally never played a game before might take longer, but overall, two sticks is the most graceful solution to orienting in 3D space.
I prefer both my sticks to twist so one can be yaw and one can be vertical thrusters, though. Makes docking in Elite a little bit like carefully setting a mug down :p
2 T16000m joysticks + voice attack for flying. Strafe up/down/left/right and throttle on the left. Other movement on the right. Using gamepad for FPS. This setup seem more natural for me. At the end is whatever feels right when you play.
+Derek A textbook configuration.
Any reason why you'd be using a controller over mouse and keyboard for FPS? Seems a bit counter productive, considering you're playing the game on a PC and mouse/keyboard is the more accurate/precise option.
Dual T.16000Ms here. I'm so glad I decided to get the second one.
I have pitch and yaw on the right stick with twist for roll and strafe forward/backward left/right on the right stick with twist for up/down.
Seems the most intuitive to me but I get your desire not to use the twist.
+Alan Brookland Like a spaceship is better for sure if you can.
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 ahh that's interesting , so like an airplane is using thrusters (throttle) , and using strafe is like a spaceship .. Neat
Right Hand is Yaw and Pitch. Left Hand Fwd/Back and Roll (Space Ship)
I use HOSAS on Descent, Overload, and Sublevel Zero. So tight spaces and some open spaces, a lot of reverse thrust as well as strafing, tight corridors, and the need to change orientation a lot. I found a hosas setup that works quite well. I don't see why it wouldn't work on Star Citizen as well.
Left stick - X axis is strafe, Y axis is throttle, Z (twist) is up/down
Right stick - X axis is yaw, Y axis is pitch, Z (twist) is roll
I'm doing much the same thing but on PS4,while the DS4 is great and all I figured I'd try out a dual joystick setup just to play Star wars Squadrons the two joysticks I"m that I'm going to use are a AVS Aviator for both PS3 and PC and a vintage Logitech Wingman extreme (yeah it uses the gameport for connection but I'm going to solve that with a gameport to USB adapter) coupled with a keyboard and mouse for extra buttons. (and a third DS4 along with IOGear's Keymander for that adapter).
I've become a much better pilot, too, since I switched from my X-55 HOTAS setup to dual sticks. (I still use my throttle as third unit because I don't have pedals yet and because I like the switches for the non-combat stuff.) Flying feels much more natural now. It's difficult to describe how big the difference really is. Great video once again by the way!
I'm about to make my own 2023 version of this video. Dual stick is better in space than HOTAS but there are plenty of HOTAS that give you best of both worlds...Hotas with mini stick. including the very cheap TM fcs16000 w/TWCS. The key is that the Throttle needs an Xbox controller mini stick. One just like on your controller. So you will have your throttle to control your main forward/backward thrusters and your mini stick to control vertices and horizontal thrusters. It works very good , especially when the mini stick is aimed forward. So you use the Throttle to control 6Directions of Thrusters and the more precise joystick to aim the ship and shoot.
I didn't know dual stick setup was a thing. I only knew about HOTAS. Think I'll try this first when I get propper money.
about to start my SC life, and needed this bro, ty
Nice VIC 20!
I've been switching between hotas and hosas(?) over the past few weeks and my dumb hand/brain connection just can't shake twist to roll which I've been using since twistable joysticks became a thing. Right now I seem to be doing best with my x52 throttle and a cheap Logitech Extreme 3D pro.
+The Batman I think people will eventually realize that dual stick is mint.
Forgive them father.... lol
Thank you for all the setup types that you have displayed. It has made my set up of dual sticks much more easy. Still having trouble but the dual setup has been an improvement in my game play in Star Ctizen
+Vamp68BSB1975 practice and time. There is no replacing them both.
i brought a Hotas ages ago i whent back to mous and keyboard i generally fly a freelancer a fairly heavy ships slow turn speed so having full control of gimbals is soooo much better !
Org mate just shared this video. This is the video that convinced me to switch from HOTAS to HOSAS almost 4 years ago!
I always thought a hotas was wrong for star citizen. Seems like a great atmospheric flight control system, but there are more options in space. So I'm considering between a dual stick, or stick and mouse with pedals and leaning to the latter.
proposed control scheme:
- mouse as normal yaw/pitch
- left stick roll and strafe up/down
- hat switch strafe left/right/forward/back
- trigger boost, double tap afterburners
- right pedal analog throttle
- left pedal brake
Thoughts?
Sounds like a what is called HOJAM it is a very good control scheme. What is 00% sure is that I agree with you. A HOTAS IS FOR planes. We will have to see how the SC joystick thing turns out.
so insightful thanks. Now I wanna make my own! but with an aluminum frame like a cockpit
I have 2 T16000Ms and I love the setup and immersion. Voice Attack is the icing on the cake.
+Zander77777 I agree. I worry taht I am starting to sound like a TV ad, but I really want everyone to get the most out of the Alpha.
I took my Saitek X-55 off my desk and screwed down off to the front sides of my chair just like on a real fighter jet. My grip the controls much better and with less fatigue. I have since then grown too used to my X-55 and really love it.
I hope to test this configuration in the future so I see for myself. Sounds like mother good setup
+TheNOOBIFIER1337 Another ... Not mother
I only borrowed this from sitting in an F-16 at an airshow plus model researching photographs of the same aircraft. The F-22 is exactly the same where the stick and throttles are placed.
Nice vid. I started Star Citizen with keyboard/mouse, but couldn't fly very well. I picked up two Thrustmaster T.16000Ms and fell in love with them. It just feels so natural. I'm thinking on getting Voice attack soon. Been using ROCCAT Power Grid to control power, shields, etc with my phone atm.
+Drew Juszkiewicz nice, power grid is super slow compared to VA. The difference is that you don't need to take your hands off the controllers, plus it's as quick as you can speak. Thanks for posting up.
I had a bit of a weird situation finding my ideal setup. My dad always wanted to be a pilot so he's spent a lot of time with flight simulators. Anytime he let me fly it was with a full setup. Stick, throttle, pedals, the works. So when I started playing SC on my own pc everything felt wrong until I had my own setup. Now that I have two sticks, a throttle and pedals the controls just disappear and my ship feels like an extension of me.
I am rocking the Thrustmaster T16000 FCS HoTAS setup, coming from a fresh slate for the most part, I found not having an ingrained set of muscle memory to be extremely beneficial.
That said, I did purchase a second Thrustmaster T16000 to see how I would like a dual stick setup. As it is right now, I find I don't mind the pedals, but it certainly has a high learning curve for someone not used to flying in this fashion.
+Arphalia the important things is to get the gear early and get used to it
I am starting to research to build my own set up for Rogue System and this was so
helpful ! Subbed !
I use dual stick set up. I was also kicked from an Org. because I was happy with the stick setup and they were trying to get me to buy a hotas of which I told them to wind their necks in. I have the T 18000 on my right and a mad catz V.1 on my left. The T18000 was £35 and the V.1 was £25. They both work well together and I also lick the fact that the V.1 has a button (7) on the pistol grip which I use for decoupled mode.
+Magill2571 That ORG sounds really odd. You should always run whatever makes sense to you. Quick access to decoupled is very important. Thanks for sharing your setup.
I feel like the setup could also be influenced by the ship you have in game so an arrow pilot might want a hotas, an avenger pilot would want the dual sticks and a freelancer pilot might want a yoke
That is possible but most would just want to learn and get good with one type
Great video as ever ! I started exactly like you and I currently own a warthog and a T16000. Dual stick is the best experience for SC in my sense, at least if you make a bit of dogfight ! HOTAS suits best cargo run, maybe, but why should I limit to this gameplay.
Currently, I'm looking forward to receive dual constellation alpha from virpil. I'll see if I keep the throttle or not ;)
Thanks again :)
HOTAS and and an HTC Vive makes Elite Dangerous crazy immersive.
You wanna make it so you can watch your videos on a moveable resizable screen ingame.
Got all of Red Dwarf on a playlist working last night, epic gaming goodness.
Also browse with it, i was more interested in playing videos myself.
I'm currently testing whether I prefer dual stick over HOTAS. I've used an X-55 RHINO HOTAS for over 18 months and it feels like an extension of my body. However, I've also borrowed a Thrustmaster T-16000 from a friend. Honestly, dual sticks still feel awkward after 10-12 hours of play time. I've tried several different configurations of the left stick and I'm just now finding a configuration that's comfortable to me. Right now, I fly almost exclusively decoupled. My left stick axii are X-Axis = Left/right strafe, Y-Axis = Vertical strafe (Inverted) and Z-Rot = forward/back Strafe. Honestly, my skills on the dual stick still need training to be anywhere near my HOTAS level. I was really excited to see the X-56 with the analog sticks, but I can't afford a whole new setup at that price.
+Joshua Rau I can't fly decoupled. It's just too far away from flight sims.
So you were absolutely right so I pretty much maxed out my skills on the KB.... then as i was intoxicated i found my old wireless (Freedom2.4 Joystick) At first i might have thought it might have been to old for SC then after trying its hilarious i went from being able to fight 2 pirates max at once to 7 at once with ease the mix of the KB with the Joystick is wonderful.
+Anthony Hill happy that you are happy. Ask any questions you have
when i first got my Logitech X52 hotas for elite dangerous, i had been playing with a controller for 400+ hours. It took me weeks to get used to it, but suddenly, within a weeks time, my piloting skill went from mediocre to almost as good as it was with 400 hours with a controller (however with a hotas im objectively more accurate). No matter what hotas or controller setup someone uses, their skill will ALWAYS increase with TIME. Great video, i just watched it to see how your hotas experience with star citizen was
Due to unrestricted six axis maneuvering in space, it may benefit from dual joysticks.
That is if you're doing a lot of XYZ axis translations for trick maneuvers.
(Are you left handed? The controls should be reversed!)
However, with realistic air flight, nothing beats pedals, throttle, and joystick.
Still, an experienced flight sim pilot can still give you a run for your money.
Space Sims in general are designed to mimic air flight and combat.
Dude. I love your methodical approach! Thanks for the video. This helps me a lot!!
Jono Du Preez thanks for the support. I appreciate it.
This is so incredibly personal preference. Personally, there is no way I could aim anywhere near as well as I can with a keyboard/mouse if I was using a HOTAS, dual joystick or gamepad. I do however find flying itself easier and more enjoyable using the HOTAS, but I just find it much more difficult to aim.
Its not even personal preference. Real pilots use pedals throttle and stick for a reason. And it's not that they can't afford a second stick in their 65 million dollar plane.
Thanks man, just getting into the game, gonna try this. Game feels great on M/K, not as great on XBOX controller, but it seems like 2 sticks could be the way for me since I don't play any other flight sim games.
I haven't tried them in Star Citizen since I can't find good place for both keyboard/mouse and joysticks but I did enjoy a dual stick setup in Elite Dangerous. Although in that game it got too exhausting (due to the inherent slow pitch/yaw of the ships) so I switched back to keyboard/mouse. It just feels like the best solution even for space sims and especially Star Citizen: lots of controls, easy to look around without track-IR/VR, mouse accuracy/sensitivity, etc.
Dude thanks so much. Your vid was exactly what I needed to see.
ik im hella late to this party but i started using a dual joystick with a throttle a few years back for elite dangerous and i fucking LOVE it
I am trying it out during freefly since I never bothered to buy it.
I really enjoy the game and in the future will buy it when I have the money as well as probably getting a dual joystick setup just because the ships are all made with them.
Excellent advice....I've been on the fence for some time over whether I should invest in some flight hardware.
I have a reasonably priced option thanks to your vid. Only thing left is the stick time.
Went back to your old vid to see how you setup the control axisis.
After watching your other vids on flight sticks I now have the VKB gunfighter 3 space (right) and the T1600 (left)
Ordered the T1600 dual set, so have a spare that can be converted to left if need be.
So far so good except for the twist axis on the VKB has caused many disconnects of the stick power.
Have cranked the locking cam down as recommended but still had stick power disconnect issues.
Ended up using the included screw to lockout the VKBs stick twist.
Also used a little vaseline on the three contact points between stick and base for added conductivity.
May fabricate my own fixed wired connection between VKB stick and base.
It’s a common issue with that stick and one reason I have not performed a review on it. That needs to be addressed
@@NOOBIFIER1337 longer throw contact pins with slightly stronger mini springs may work. Not sure if the twist is actually causing a disconnect of one or two pins or it's something else going on inside the stick?
Oh well, Virpil might be my next stick for left if T1600s don't last. Was thinking another VKB...not now.
very cool i'm a lefty this will help out a lot Thank's Noob so much for all the work that you do for Star Citizen's
+Steel Raptor I appreciate you posting that up. We will get some left handed Warthogs going soon.
I really want a dual stick setup right about now. It will definitely take much time adapting to it (cant handle full hotas setup accurate and good enough) from keyboard mouse setup.
+Ori Kaydar then stay with what works. That is fine too
TBH, a person will always do best with whatever setup they're the most comfortable with. Though, yes, one should try every option available to them and it shouldnt take more then a short while of actively using a setup to determine if it's natural and intuitive to their individual preference, which should be the defining factor. Intuitively interacting with absolutely any system is more critical to an individual than any other consideration. More intuitive means less thinking about how to do it, and more thinking about WHAT you want to do and just doing it.
Yeah I agree with you, dual joysticks are the best configuration for PVP as I own two Virpil Alphas. BUT later I purchased a Virpil throttle (CM3) tied to a Panel 1 and I find THAT configuration more immersive and just plain funnererer for "Star CItizen".
So my response to you is that it depends on your type of gameplay as Star Citizen is more than just PVP. Ill never be a top dog PVP'er but that is not my goal. CHeers.
Great video, I'm still figuring out what I want and this was exactly what I was looking for as a reference point. Keep up the awesome work man, it's really helpful.
+booms thanks I hope it becomes easy to navigate all this stuff
Even with my kb/m I have yaw and pitch on my mouse and throttle up/down, thrusters left right on wasd and roll on q and e. it works for me
I use a Logitech Extreme 3d on the right hand and a Logitech Attack 3 on the left and it's a wonderful setup.
Yaw and roll are on the 3D and strafe and speed controll are on the Attack 3.
It's a good starter setup because it only costs about 60 bucks and the attack 3 is leftie friendly and is not twistable, which is a good thing because you only need one twistable stick, so there is no confusion about that.
+Patalpha I'll go check out those parts on google. Thanks
You're welcome.
So, it is like the setup for R/C airplane radio mode 2... Nice!
Exactly
If you're not a real pilot who's used to pedals for yaw, and are totally new to space sims, I think it makes the most logical sense for one stick to control translation (movement) and one stick to control rotation (camera). Of course, for you real pilots, there's nothing stopping you from using two sticks *_AND_* pedals for yaw.
Hungry Guy Yep! This was my experience. I used the Xbox controller for Elite in just that way until mine started crapping out, and I got tired of still not having quiiiite enough analog inputs and having my vertical thrusters on tap-tap-tap. Switching to two cheap twist-sticks was as big a relief as cleaning really dirty glasses. Now I don't have digital inputs for ANY of my thrusters!
No more blaming the interface for getting blown up, though.
Interesting review, and I get the part about using pedals would be cumbersome for yaw in space flight. I use a HOTAS without pedals, I also use the X axis of my stick to yaw. Pitch and yaw are the most important in a space sim so I have them on X and Y. Roll is rather unimportant in a zero G environment so I just leave it as twist. I'm a pilot in real life and at first I had it set like traditional aircraft controls but then I found myself banking and yanking for turns which is totally unnecessary in a space sim. You'll even notice the control movements in the cockpit in game are setup to yaw with left and right stick movement. It took a little getting used to but after 30mins or so I had it down. As for using a self centering stick for throttle, I can imagine that would get tiring really quick, what if you want to be moving along at 75% power through and asteroid field? you fighting the centering force the entire time to keep that setting, with a proper throttle, you can set it and it will hold it's position. Just my 2 cents.
+therealsnow I would just say "Throttle 75% and Voice Attack would set the throttle for me.
Was interested in a no twist setup. I noticed everyone using it and I know twist wears on your wrists. Good to know it works.
+dlikhten Twist has a short throw compared to X or Y
I love the thrustmaster t16000m platform because I can switch from hotas to dual stick any time, and rudder pedals work with both, just by switching profiles
This is so dope the funny thing is I just learned about this game and fell in love. Wanted to pick up flight sticks but wanted to see if it was worth it or going that other thing this video helped a lot hope to see u in there Man
the exact same here
Great video, man. I'm looking into a SC setup, and this perspective was really helpful.
the hall-effect sensors in the t-16000 and warthog are really where its at. if someone would make hall-effect thumbsticks, rather than use cheap potentiometers, controllers might be more competitive. they do give great ergonomics and immediacy of access but they always fail on mechanical precision.
Virpil makes left-handed grip. I recommend. BTW one stick shoul'd be for rotation and one for translation.
Jaromír Anděl yes, I am in contact with them. As per your suggestion, without 3DOF per stick, it's more difficult to isolate rotation and translation into left and right. Can you offer me an example (no pedals)
Well, I'm going from controlling real space machines. (Like it is in space shuttle mission simulator or orbiter) There are just 2 sticks. One for rotation and one for translation. Yes, I use MFG Crosswind rudder pedals, because my main game is DCS:World with WWII aircrafts and helicopters. I just hoped it will help. Sorry.
+Jaromír Anděl their sticks have 3 each though. Warthog and VirPil have 2. They have shipped a set of sticks for review last week. You are the first to know from the public. I will be producing reviews and guides on their products shortly. I will also work hard to design logical controller schemes. I hope that you stay tuned and provide feedback in the future.
with the thrustmaster stick x you dont need the pedals because you can tilt the joystick. if you do not have so much money it is a nice alternative xD
This is very informative I prefer dual sticks and throttle it’s awesome
What we really need is something that's both a hotas and a hosas for 6dof. Gundam had the right idea with its sliding linear handles which did both.
Search Sublight Dynamics Noobifier
aside from Sublight Dynamics you can also take a look at omnithrottle by VKB. for left stick it can be a Throttle but in addition it has left right axis as well as twist (like a motorcycle)