The Difference Between Fun and Frustrating Games
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- Опубліковано 6 чер 2024
- What's the difference between a fun challenge and a frustrating mess? In this video I seek to answer this question with my own game, Bloodthief.
➤ WISHLIST BLOODTHIEF ON STEAM: store.steampowered.com/app/25...
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This is a devlog for Bloodthief, the indie game I'm working on inspired by Quake, Hotline Miami, and Ghostrunner. In this devlog I talk about:
- Preparation and tools for playtesting
- Preventing rage quitting
- Making mechanics intuitive
- Giving the player room to learn
- Allowing the player to always feel in control
- Being careful with punishing gameplay
Leave a comment below if you have any feedback on the game or questions about my process!
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Chapters
0:00 Intro
0:56 The Magic of the Playtest
2:52 Preventing the Rage Quit
4:28 Easy to Learn, Difficult to Master
8:04 Don't Require Perfection (at first)
9:22 The must always feel in control
11:26 Punishing Gameplay
12:47 Results
13:18 Takeaways
13:43 What's Next
#devlog #gamedev #godot #indiegame #indiedev - Ігри
You can play the playtest right now by going to the steam page here: store.steampowered.com/app/2533600/Bloodthief/
If you like the game don't forget to wishlist on Steam and sub to the channel for updates 🙂
Sorry to bother you, do WADs work in Godot?
Yes! With the Qodot plugin (which is what I’m using) you can use WADs for textures.
@@Blargis3d huh, I don't seem to be able to get wad files working on Godot but I'll give it another try :) thanks
my game doesnt launch, when i press play there comes a loading circle by my mouse, it stops loading and closes
This video is pure gold
Currently my favorite devlog series because you can tell how much you care about making a fun and challenging game instead of just throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sorta sticks. Its clear that you deeply care about this game and i cant wait to see the finished project!
I'm so happy you're enjoying the videos, thank you!
@@Blargis3dpornhub creator comment lmao
@@Blargis3dIt better be as openly moddable as doom or at least Skyrim/Valve games. Doom is open source, so it's probably not going to be as moddable as that, valve/skyrim levels works.
When you deflect an arrow, the white flash seems too intense to me. And the time slow-down may be too.
I plan on having options to turn all this stuff off if you want
Yeah that was my thought as well, the slowdown made it look like the game froze in a while loop for a second
@@Blargis3ddon’t have an option to turn it on. the time slowdown at least. if you dont want to interrupt the flow of speedy gameplay literally freezing the game like a bug is a great thing to avoid
I agree, don't freeze the game. Make it look seemles
Having the sword turn sideways, perhaps with the alternative hand holding against the blade, as if the block the arrow, would follow the same direction as your explanation of the wallrunning mechanic. And perhaps instead of just timing, having to aim toward a target you want to redirect the arrow to, could lead to more emergent gameplay, giving a choice of target, or perhaps even having the arrow hit a wall, then jumping off said arrow to gain a speed boost.
when you got to the part with the archers on the platform my first reaction was "surely theres a parry." and then i learned you added one. very cool. game looks fun
The thing is with the speed and the red enemies on red background, until he showed the footage of players dying and adding the parry I couldn't tell if the shiny things on the platform were enemies or power ups. Turns out it was projectiles :p
I think if you want to add back some of the skill ceiling with sliding that was removed when you removed the timing aspect, you could add a feature that gives you a larger boost of speed when you time your slide perfectly. The game would still be accessible and possible for new players, but provide incentive for skilled players to intentionally make the game harder for themselves in order to potentially shave off some time (and maybe if you wanted too, you could incorporate this into level design by adding some skips or shortcuts that are only possible with perfect slides)
Love this idea, a couple other folks mentioned this in the comments. I'll probably add something like this!
The removal of the timing seems to be doing a lot more of lowering the skill floor, as it's a requirement macanic to finish the tutorial. Dosent seem to do much to lower the cap
@@midori_the_eldritch That's because timing is something that easily becomes second nature with practice. Then it's just a matter of learning how to use that slide jump.
There would definitely need to be some form of feedback as to whether you are doing a "standard" slide jump or this new improved "critical" version.
Stop promoting Catholicism. They removed books from the Bible. The inserted pagan crap like trinity and 🎃🐰🎄🎅. They changed the Sabbath to Sunday and fufilling Daniel 7:25 prophecy. They also blatantly changed the 2nd commandment to push idolatry, which is against the Bible
All this tells me is that most modern gamers are horrifically disconnected from movement shooters. Like, if you didn't tell me that nearly everyone struggled this much I would've been making game journalist jokes.
Well most people today grow up with COD minecraft and Fortnite so I'm not surprised.
Only exposure I got personally was mm8bdm then doom.
It's just not an amazing genre for console players.
I believe gyro controls are what really brings the PC to console though.
@@captaincommando9839bro o wouldn't diss fortnite player if you can't crank nineties a whole new York on top of your opponents on less than 1.5 seconds, but no build player though... potatoes of potatoes
@@NeoShameMan Nah, im diamond rank on builds so I understand.
Its just not the same thing.
Especially if your not using gyro controls/aim assist, the effort that goes into using a controller gets a bit too much.
It has always been a niche market. Quake playtesters didn't know how to use a mouse and not end up have their view stuck in the ceiling or floor. This caused id to add automatic view normalization to the horizon and view adjusting to the slopes.
Movement shooters only very recently have become a science of sort, all early examples are nothing more than a small dedicated playerbase pushing the game mechanics to their limits which in turn caused others who were interested in optimizing their play adjusting accordingly.
I feel like this video made me a better game designer
I think the way you improved the wall jump is very nice, having to hold into the wall when you want to go the other direction is very annoying, though i would like to add that some people may prefer not being magnetized to a wall when they go near it, so it could perhaps be a toggle you can disable in the options.
And on the topic of the slide jump slide, you could heighten the skill ceiling by making sliding in the air make you lose some speed over time, so pressing it as close to the ground as possible lets you preserve more speed.
Additionally, i personally prefer high air control over less air control as well, and especially if the air control influences the direction of the momentum instead of just temporarily adding speed in a direction. Good job with that.
There is an easy solution to the checkpoint problem. It could be how to add additional difficulties, be that easier or harder. Easier difficulties have more checkpoints, so a player needs to execute less of the level at once, with the highest difficulty not having any for example.
Love all these ideas, especially the slide button in the air slowing you down - love stuff that rewards skilled players like that
These are great ideas. I feel like a lot of the initial mechanics in the game are actually really good. The ability to toggle what you like and don't like mechanically in a single player game is always a welcome option.
I had the same check point difficulty idea. And almost the same with the slide, you could have a setting for it, tho the slowdown was maybe an even better idea
this looks rad, right on homie!
My thought about checkpoints.
I understand what you're getting at with overcoming a challenge and feeling that satisfaction, but I think you're applying that end-game vice to a section where players will barely have had the time to get their land legs yet. A thing that makes me put a game down before I normally would (like Forgive Me Father, for example) is when I keep dying to a section that I want to practice and figure out, but I have to replay 15 minutes of level before I can even get to that section again, only to die right away because I'm still learning about it.
That doesn't make me feel like I earned it more - it feels like I'm being artificially prevented from gathering data and improving my strategy. If there's 3 level sections of progress on the line, I'm less likely to experiment and try difficult mechanics because that behavior is more likely to be punished. So I would learn that you're teaching me to play safe, but eventually I'd just feel frustrated.
Like, I can already do parts A and B, and I never fail those sections. I'm ONLY struggling on part C, but in order to learn more about C, I need to do A and B ooovvveeerr and oovveerrr again. No thanks, that's inconsiderate of my time and will have me begging for the autonomy of a quick save so I could just override your checkpoints and start where I want to.
Def def gonna check this out though - it looks super fun. I have like 300 hours in Ultrakill and Turbo Overkill, plus a comparable amount spread across the Quake franchise, so I love a good First Person Movement/momentum feel.
yeah, having too few checkpoints in a game like this doesn't really make it any more of a satisfying challenge to overcome, it's not like a roguelike where part of the challenge is the gauntlet you have to go through every time, replaying a section you already know how to do is just annoying
I’m pretty generous with the checkpoints in the playtest I’d say :)
@@Blargis3d having played through it since leaving this comment -
I agree with the sentiment I was getting at overall, but I think your checkpoints are absolutely reasonable and considerate, so it felt totally cool to me 👍👍
judging from the footage, the freezing during the parry feels like it interrupts the flow to the point that I thought it was lag
with regards to the slide jump, I think adding what amounts to "input buffering" in the form of allowing the player to hold slide and have it activate when you land is a really solid idea. When you first mentioned it I was thinking to myself, wouldn't a more traditional input buffer be better but the justification that it's a fundamental mechanic and *needs* to be easy to learn really convinced me that an "infinite" input buffer is better for it, even if it's probably not the case for some hypothetical other game.
I think you could add another layer of mastery by having a small window right before you land where hitting the slide input will you get some little boon, like the slide deals damage as you pass through enemies or you get a small speed boost that you can chain into an even faster/higher jump. Some additional mechanic that gives you further incentive to master the timing.
All that said, you're the game dev, you have the analytics to back up your development decisions, and I haven't even playtested your game. I don't want to "back seat gamedev".
Instant subscribe. This one is going in the "Game Dev" playlist for reference when I finally get off my arse.
I like the sliding idea, a few others have suggested something similar! I’ll probably do something like the speed boost thing
Backseat gamedev is CRAZY.
I think this is just considered giving ideas, but sure lmfao.
What you're trying to make is clearly a speed game, meaning that people will want to go fast and not get bogged down for too long on one level/section. So I think making checkpoints reasonably generous will keep player retention high. After all, the replayability of such a game is in improving your time and achieving mastery. I suggest implementing a ranking system, and making deaths reduce said ranking. Death is punishing for those who are trying to get a high ranking, but not punishing for those who are playing for the first time and just want to get to the end. After all, celeste was extremely generous with its checkpoints, and nobody ever complained about it.
Parry arrow animation is something I would suggest. As for checkpoints, it could just be tied to a difficulty option, like how I Want to Be the Guy just adds more checkpoints on the easier difficulty. Or you could make the checkpoint system like in Shovel Knight where you can destroy them for a reward, but can't use it anymore.
your devlog series is really fun to watch, especially because you seem so genuine and excited yourself and i am really thrilled to see were youre going with this game
Thank you! I'm happy you're enjoying it :)
One small animation/player feedback thing I think you might consider is making the parry animation more like a sword block. I paused and looked at the parry and it seems like the player counterintuitively parries with their left arm. I just think it would add a cool badass feeling to watch the sword block the arrows and send them back to where they came from. The parry effects and sounds are pretty spot-on though, good job there
Feels like playtesting is everything! It was cool to see your process how you fixed it. Cheers!
I knew you had played Ultrakill when you were explaining the slide. The mechanic seems to be aiming to replicate how bunny jumping works there by sliding right as you hit the ground and jumping the next frame.
Anyway, this video was very insightful, I liked it.
Awesome video, really helpful! I'm also working on a small game right now and used a similar wall-running implementation. Getting feedback like this early on is really valuable and I'll definitely keep this in mind for the future development. Thank you so much!
Its nice to see someone embracing the "prototype and playtesting" as fully and openly as you do. Keep it up :D
Great informative video, love the updates and transparency. Can't wait to play some more when I find time!
Thank you!
6:43 That was the most genius bullet-pointed list I've ever seen. Just one second prior, walljumping felt like TF2 Soldier Rocket Jumping maps, a kind of "hack". The moment I saw the screenshot of the _tilted camera_, it instantly clicked that this was a real mechanic and not just a hack.
I think you made some really wonderful changes to the playtest! As I know I played the first vs second and it was so much more intuitive (to me). I hope you keep up the good work :)
So glad you liked the changes! Thanks for testing it out :)
Great video! gives me alot to think about for when I do playtests on my game
I was part of the early playtest and it was great to put in my feedback, it's great to see the progress. (especially for that fov)
I applaud your way of thinking about game design, you really seem to put a lot of thought and care into the project. Awesome video! 👍
Love seeing the process of you improving the game. Can't wait to see more
Glad you liked it!
This looks amazing!! I could not imagine how cool custom maps would be for this game. Keep up the great work!
This single devlog was so informative that it made me want to try a game that is in a genre I wouldn't otherwise be interested in. Great work!
This stuffs dope man, keep working at it. Your thought process is excellent and informative
Appreciate the kind words, Glad you found it informative!
You've earned a new sub, a wishlist, and a lot of good karma! One of my many aspirations in life is to make my dream FPS game, your videos are so insightful and entertaining, and I can't wait to try out Bloodthief!
Amazing video! I'll be sure to recommend this to as many friends as I can, keep up the great work!!
I love your game so much, it looks awesome I can’t wait to see more progress on it
Downloaded your demo and left some feedback! Can't wait to see how your project turns out :D
Thanks for playing and leaving feedback!
wow I came into this devlog to check on the project, but in the process I learned so much about gamedev. awesome video
One of the coolest game projects I've seen on UA-cam, joined the playtest immediately, keep up the great work!
Thank you! Hope you have fun playing :)
Very nice! Great job on the improvements you found for your game.
Hey Blargis. I've never made a game before and don't have time to learn now.... so I'm sort of living vicariously through your videos! I always thought making it fun to traverse the game world was essential to making a fun game, and it seems like you're really nailing that!
Not sure if you'll read this or even take youtube comments from "idea guys" into consideration, but It doesn't cost much more than a few calories and time to type, so I'll share anyway: I think another good hook for a game is unique boss mechanics. Games like Doom or quake where bosses are bullet sponges that just do more than average damage always left me wanting for more. Games like Halo that force you to escape as the world falls apart, or portal where you have to accomplish a number of steps to win are far more challenging, fair, and have more substance. I also always loved the pattern recognition of mega man or bullet hell games. These types of mechanics make for tough and memorable gaming experiences.
I look forward to more of your content and your game on final release!
we're 100% on the same page for boss design. Spongy bosses doesn't fit the vibe for bloodthief IMO. It's totally gonna be like what you mentioned - multi step set pieces where the boss has some unique mechanics that you have to learn.
Thanks for commenting and the kind words!
@@Blargis3dmaybe you'll even be able to have your own V2 moment!
Amazing, so good to understand the full loop, stuff to improve, how you discover that and how you improve it :D
Thank you!!
Super glad this devlog showed up in my recommended cause this game looks sick. Looks like everything I wanted Ghostrunner to be. Wishlisted and am gonna try the playtest in a bit!
I loved this video and your game, thanks for sharing your experience and helping other game devs!
Cool video I wish you success! I am a modder and you do over all pretty cool stuff. I also love quake games and especially RtCW
Thank you! I’m hoping to have mod support! At least custom maps I think I can have. Not sure exactly how full mod support would work just yet
@@Blargis3d Quake 3 modding is really easy and really cool, I would even do a custom map for this game lol. I am not great in NetRadiant but it should be easy enough
Interesting watch. Maybe for sliding, what you could do is have the slide activate as it is now, but if the player gets the timing spot-on, they get a bigger boost? Mechanics like that which add onto previous mechanics are pretty interesting imo.
That would be really cool I think
I feel like you got everything wrong at first, but you were able to fix it afterwards! Nice demonstration.
Oh and I love this transition! 9:50
Well, this is basically my perfect game I've always wanted... So excited to help playtest! :D
reminds me a lot of q3 defrag, lol, nice job and good devlog, wish you all the best, we indie devs are having it tough at times
Just finished the playtest and wanna say, great work on everything it was a ton of fun! Cannot wait to see this development process continue :)
Also just had an idea, I'm sure this is already on the list, but some menu music/ effects might be a nice touch. Definitely a *finishing* touch tho
Glad you liked it! And yeah definitely need music
Hey, Blargis, nice work. I don't design games or even play that many, but I really enjoyed this video. Seeing the stages of deciding how to assess the playtests, getting the assessment tools together, analyzing the results, and solving the problems that turned up was satisfyingly scientific.
For my two cents on the checkpoint/punishment dilemma, Super Mario World's solution holds up. The amount of punishment one checkpoint can spare you, roughly halfway through a SMW-sized level, feels just right. Not only that, but snapping the ribbon on a miniature version of the end-of-level goal posts is very satisfying.
Keep up the good work! Bloodthief looks like a lot of fun!
Looking forward to more - I found your channel right as I started playing around with Godot, really enjoying watching the devlogs and seeing the project grow.
Thank you! I’ll try to include more Godot tidbits in future devlogs
Great video.
Edit: I've wishlisted the game is it looks interesting and with what you have talked about it sounds likes its worth at least trying out. Good luck on your game.
Cool video! Loved your approach and how you handle feedback. You're killing it 🔥
Textbook case study. Excellent video!
Good stuff man!
excited to see more!
This is a fascinating video! I’d love to be able to do what you’re doing, and you should be proud.
If you want to keep some of the skill aspect of the Slide Jump, you could give the player a speed boost if they do hit the timing right! That way it’s just as easy to learn, but makes it more difficult to master by raising the skill ceiling.
Good luck!
Thank you for sharing! Every developer sharing experience of their game in UA-cam is very inspiring, because of the lessons the viewers can take from videos. For example, here the lesson seems to be about the reviews, which may not be great and be discouraging, but on the other hand, to throw away the product because of this is way too much. Instead, a better alternative is to find out what is wrong and trying to fix it.
Exactly! Glad you enjoyed it :)
You could add a speed boost to the slide depending on how close they were to the ground when they hit space. That way skilled players can still express their skill and get rewarded. And if you’re just holding space before you’re close enough to the ground you’d just get normal slide speed which would still build up speed but not as quickly.
Bro this game looks amazing! So much potential for new areas, enemies, weapons and potentially lore. Really looking forward how you will develop this game :)
Thank you!!
this is a really cool series! I am thinking of majoring in game design (got into a few programs already, just have to decide where im going) and itsis very interesting seeing how you react to the feedback!
Love the video, keep up the good work :D
amazing devlog, thanks for sharing!!
Glad you liked it!
Cool that you taking some inspiration from Ultrakill, I interested to see how some mechanics can look in a fast paced melee game
Melee ultrakill is definitely what I'm going for
@@Blargis3dcheck out shady knight! its also indev and its pretty similar, with a style meter and everything
Amazing project, I’m amazed seeing this entire project. I believe the time freezing is a bit unnecessary for the parrying, other than that, you executed everything else perfectly
Your game looks amazing im glad i clicked, my biggest critique for the way it feels would be the sounds, theyre super important for the feeling, and they could be way better.
I wanna say, Good on the checkpoint idea. Im no game dev but for fast games like Hotline Miami and Ultrakill dying feels bad but since the games are so fast and let me jump right back in it doesnt feel bad at all, Im back in that rewarding gameplay loop, just earlier in the level. I think what you have on this part looks good. also the game looks rad as hell. keep it up
Super good video 🖤 will join the playtest right away :)
good shit, very informative, subbed :D
This definitely reminds me of Ghostrunner's mechanics. Nice to see.
I love what you did with deflect, i never heard about your game but it looks like a something similar to "ghostrunner" in which i played like half an hour because it wasn't fun when i was getting hit mid-air and couldn't really do anything about it, despite loving the theme i just couldn't play it... It was way too frustrating. Again, great job with deflect mechanic!
Very cool devlogs! Inspiring for me.
Glad you're liking them, thank you!
Great video! I'm glad I got recommended this, your channel should be bigger!
Was super interesting to see the feedback you got and how you responded to it. Was interesting to see everything from the developers perspective. Also your game looks really fun and now I'm looking forward to the full release :D Is there an ETA?
Keep upp the awesome work, good sir !
Yo, your game looks pretty sick. It's going on my steam wishlist now
Great video, I really appreciate the detailed explanation of both dev's and players perspective on the discussed matter. It really helps me understand my own reception of a game, which leads to either giving a better feedback on it, easier solving my own problems with the game, or both. Sometimes it IS a skill issue. Sometimes it's devs being way better at their game than me and not really realizing it. Regarding the punishment for a failure in a game, I always look at it as a balance between game testing me on a resource management and my mastery of the combat or platforming. Like, If the game is somewhat about resource management, It's okay to have multiple challenges (combat or otherwise) that do not have checkpoints in between. In Bloodthief that resource seems to be blood (I haven't found any other during my time with the test version). Thus, I do not see much point in checkpoints being far from (or separated at all) from those blood pools that give you said resource. At the same time, I believe that adding optional hard gauntlets with rare or no checkpoints for those that seek said challenge would be really cool. Overall, I love both the game and vids and can't wait to see more of both!
This game looks great, looking forward to trying it out when it's in a more complete state. Another suggestion could be to enable maps made by other players with something like Qodot or some sort of level editor. Quake 3 Defrag or Quake 1's jam packs has some amazing maps made by talented map makers, which could also benefit a game like this and give it an infinitely scalable experience.
The game looks so good and the momentum idea really promising. Keep on man! Idk if its me but it gives me ghostrunner vibes, which, is amazing in my opinion
That's insightful. Thanks
I love this video, I love your progress you're showing, and your game looks fucking SICK. I'm not ordinarily into all the like, boomer-shooters and movement-based shooters and such, but the look and especially some of the sound effects contribute to making this seem SO SATISFYING. Fuckin wishlisted
I’m definitely buying this on release, looks good!
as someone who is starting to make a little game for myself, this was a cute and interesting watch. hope your game takes off, it seems original
This is all great advice, thanks.
all valuable lessons. thanks for sharing.
looking awesome nice work
I feel you for that flag ship took me a while on easy difficulty also keep up the good work on the game its really good.👍
Fantastic video, and inspirational game to continue my own game dev. Requested access and got in straight away, hyped to try your game. Cheers YT algorithm.
Thank you for the kind words!
when I clicked the video, and saw the game, I was like: what is this shit game, but wow.. this is amazing, I love it. I also like that you listen to player feedback, it's pretty uncommon nowadays. Keep up the great work! Subbed + Wishlisted!
Love the concept and look of the game. Making a retro fps too. I'll definitely be keeping an eye yours.
Cool video, wish you the best of luck
Looks cool!
just submitted my review, was able to beat the whole thing in 20 minutes, and there is certainly a lot to work on! hope this game launches well
Can’t wait for this game! Got into games like this after playing ultrakill
You could add more check points, but give the option to skip a checkpoint and take extra points, collectibles, or powerups with them. Reward good players with clout points or bonuses, and still allow worse players to eke by if they want.
Love the new leniency on slide jumps. Reminds me of coyote time in 2d platformers.
Great video!
This game is now a mix of intuitive controls and an HD retro aesthetic! Good work 👍
Hello Mr. Blargis,
Firstly, your project is fantastic! I have a few suggestions that might enhance it further:
Enhanced Alert System for Archers: I noticed the presence of archers in the game. It could be beneficial to introduce an auditory alert when they are targeting the player, especially if within a certain range. Additionally, a visual cue, such as a brief flash emanating from the bow, paired with the audio alert, would assist players in recognizing and responding to this specific enemy type more effectively.
Guidance for Movement Mechanics: In your video, you mentioned players were unsure about wall jumping and sliding to gain speed. To encourage the correct usage of these mechanics, you could incorporate distinct sounds, add effects (like speed lines), maybe IK with one leg, this will associate positive reinforcement with these actions. For example, designing a section of the game that's only accessible via a wall kick could serve as a practical lesson, teaching players the necessity and utility of these moves.
I see that technically you changed a little for a big impact.
This video has valuable info, thank you!
Thank you for watching, glad you liked it :)
i am already excited for this game it looks really fun
It's those quality of life parts that make great design.
Forgiving but punishing.
Forgiving is coyote time for example. Have a little extra time to jump right after you stop being grounded.
It doesn't make the obstacle any easier. It just means you can focus on actually passing the obstacle rather than focusing on yourself and not being clunky.
Imagine if in Overwatch, if you hit the shoot button but you're deploying an ability, reloading, running or anything. Then you won't shoot.
And suddenly in a stressful situation now you're not shooting and dies.
You'd have to focus more on your own controls than the actual enemy.
So the gun instead fires immediately after your skill or activity is done.
Get an expected reaction from your action. Don't be picky.
My favorite is not using a button being pressed down or held down.
Instead when I press the jump button. I run a timer of .2 second and in that time. I'm always jumping.
This means even if I'm too early with my jump, I will still jump as soon as I touch the ground.
This feels *SOOOOO GOOD* and really responsive.
Responsive controls are perhaps the most important part of a good game to master first.
6:41 you might want to consider adding a second hand to brace against the wall to help indicate the "wallrunning state," too.
one thing i immediately thought of when you mentioned the wallrunning changes was.. what if i dont want to be wall running but im next to a wall? my thought is to add the ability to just detach from a wall while still next to it & thus have more control of your height on the wall if that is important for your route on the level