I respect them both but warmed more toward Fr. Travis. In our culture we no longer stand in absolute awe and reverence before anyone or anything - not even a hurricane. We bow to no-one, for me that's a problem.
About a week ago I ran into them having a Beer here in Downtown Edmonton. Nick has moved on to a different position and Travis is moving to a different Parish in October.
Good presentation of the Anglican Church. It is Catholic and Protestant at the same time. Holy Writ is our guidline! It is all about worship and not about singing or witnessing a stage show. Get what I am saying? We live on a flat surface, not trying to climb up a mountain. Mankind is on the same course and we have salvation in love only in and through Jesus Christ our only mediator and advocate! Best shown in the Holy Euchurist!
I just recently joined an Episcopal parish and with my recent circumstances, I go to a church that is more high church and one that is closer to low church and I really appreciate this video. Despite the difference in the two, I love the Anglican tradition of the liturgy. I grew up as a Methodist preacher's kid, so I have grown accustomed to liturgy. But I saw that faith grow away from liturgy and into something that was far away from something John and Charles Wesley would be comfortable with.
This is the fourth video of yours I've watched today, and I plan on watching more after work. As someone only recently discovering Anglicanism (and "recovering" from Mormonism), thanks for such a large library of thoughtful and well put together videos.
Something I think it strange with Nick's vestments and that he is wearing the stole hanging outside the cincture. In Sweden, if the cincture is used (not always) the stole is inside it and crossed for a priest and hanging for a bishop.
I have really enjoyed all of your videos. I have recently started attending an Anglican Church in the Uk coming from a Pentecostal/Calvinistic background so I would be so low church its not even funny; I have found your videos invaluable to my understanding of the Anglican Communion! Thank you, please make some more.....your friend Vincent.
@pw4489 No, they are both very Anglican. I ended leaving the footage out by Nick was actually raised in a High Church Parish while Travis was raised a Roman Catholic. Also, in Canada we really don't have many Methodists anymore.
It's interesting that while the entire video cover the liturgical differences between high and low church Anglicans… The theological differences were ignored and glossed over.
Correct. At the end of the video, it’s shocking how you have one priest who views the Eucharist as the literal body of Christ and another who views the Eucharist as a mere symbol of unity. The Anglican Church is not Catholic and Protestant simultaneously. It is a schizophrenic church that does not know what it is.
I know at my Cathedral there is one (with torches) for that leads the procession, one for the clergy and occasionally a third if our Bishop is in attendance at the service. In 2008 at our Bishop's Consecration I lost count of the number of Processional Crosses used, but it would have been on the order of at least 8 or 9.
Actually, Canon Travis did a brief Curacy in two Anglo-Catholic Parishes in Toronto and I have seen him do several ad Orientum services since this. We didn't want to move the Altar and I wanted both Priests to have been in the same spot. Also, the gap between the Altar and Reredos was a little small there.
By the way, I do strongly wish that Reverend Nick, even as a lowchurchman, would study eucharistic Christianity more. In my opinion, the degree of churchmanship ultimately doesn't matter that much as long as the worship is solemn, (I think high church worship works better in large churches and low church better in chapels and small churches) but a Eucharistic orientation versus a "preaching orientation" is what truly allows the congregation to have a direct experience of the Divine.
For the pentinence of the so beautiful priest Nick: Merci pour ce beau vidéo qui explique en toute simplicité et avec humour les différences entre les 2 grandes tendances de la tradition anglicane. La chandelle brille parmi les ténèbres. La chasuble rendrait encore plus belle ta présidence de l'Eucharistie car la beauté rend gloire au Dieu et Père du Christ Jésus. Thanks to both and big kisses from a RC from QUÉBEC but only ... in french! LOL XOX
@ArmoredEpiscopalian All Saints' Cathedral is considered Broad Church. It has been common to have a High and Low Church priest as either the Dean and Curate which ends up balancing things nicely.
A charming video, although both priests tip-toed around the issue of "real presence" in the eucharist. If God can make a flower, He can be mystically present in the elements. Nick is young, and hasn't fully formed into the apostolic role of priest, which will increase his sacramental confidence at the altar as time goes on. Don't worry about Nick! I would feel comfortable with either of these priests as my own. The narrator referred to the cassock as a "Cossack", and the surplice as a "surplus". And I thought having candles on the altar was an issue left far behind us in the late 1970s (?). We've all had to give and hold our tempers over our own proud 'lil personal Episcopalian "things" and preferences. It's a battle against pride and a lesson in how to get along. Some learned, some moved on - some are still having a difficult time as knowledge and the world change. How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb ? THREE. One to make martinis, one to climb the ladder and change the bulb, and one to say " I liked the old one better". Deo Gratias +
My natural inclination is always toward high church. I like Nick, but I find his seeming embarrassment by a more formal ritual rather strange. I was amused by the narrator, who mispronounces almost every liturgical term!
@karpov89 If I recall the Church of Norway and Church of Denmark regained Apostolic Succession through the Church of Sweden as well. I can't remember how the Baltic Churches obtained it. I seem to recall that the EKD is not in Provoo as many of the the Bishops in its member Churches don't have Apostolic Succession. The Anglican Communion is also in Full Communion with the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht whose orders Rome Does recognize.
Maple Anglican Baltic Lutherans received apostolic succession jointly through both the Church of England and the Church of Sweden.. … Up until that point, I believe the churches had "bishops", (even sitting in the old episcopal sees) but more bishop in the sense of the Methodist church or the Moravians… Not the historic episcopate.
@frsdonahue The point of the video was *not* to show traditional Anglican liturgy, but the differences that can be found between two Priests using the exact same Prayer Book.
@pw4489 Truthful for filming this I asked Nick to "be as Low Church as you want". I have seen Nick be the Celebrant Priest at a Choral Eucharist at the same altar. While Nick is certainly Low Church and tends to be more Protestant than other Anglicans he is still an Anglican priest.
@AotearoaForever Travis said it was a Surplice and its made from a thin cotton linen so I just called it that. You might be correct about the Surplice, but the sleeves are considerably longer than what Roman Catholic clerics wear here in North America. Truthfully I know of several errors in this video that I leave in much like some authors live with mistakes in their books.
The Cathedral has four crosses actually. I would presume that we borrowed processional crosses from other parishes for the Episcopal Consecration in 2008.
@kejcolley Here in Anglican Church of Canada, and in the Episcopal Church, the term (Anglo-)Catholic and Evangelical are usually only applied to the those who are "very high" or "very low" in their Churchmanship. For instance, Canon Travis rejects the term for himself why still considering himself "High".
Very good and informative video! For me as a Lutheran I think it is strange that not all priests - normally - wear the chasuble during the mass, in Sweden almost all low church priests do, although I am not sure it is a must. Also it is strange that the low church priest has not the same belief in the real presence...is that really allowed?! No or small difference in the Lutheran church. Making the sign of the cross is usually done before the elevation, not after, also a bit strange.
@frsdonahue No one said they were traditional, in fact how they conduct the Eucharistic prayers is the modern way you would see a High Church and a Low Church priest do it. High Church Priests don't have to face East and Low Church Priests don't have to be at the North end of the Altar. Conversely, when filming both Priests I asked them to "show me *exactly* what you would do on any Sunday".
I know Travis very well and he would speak in solid support of it. With Nick I would presume so but I have never questioned him thoroughly on the matter.
Thank you for posting this video. Right now, it looks like I am transitioning into the Episcopal Church here in the States, and am attending an Anglo-Catholic parish in Elmira, NY. I am interested in knowing the differences between High Church and Low Church. I added this to a new playlist, Anglican. Again, thank you!
@brassspitoon To be frank the one scene with them "joshing" was actually done at my request for the purposes of the video. It actually took a lot to convince them to do that scene. Conversely, I don't know if you are insinuation that either Priests are anything but Heterosexual. If you were I will let you know that to the best of my knowledge both are straight and one is happy married.
May I ask a question? How do you respond to our belief in Apostolic Succession, Real Presence, seven Sacraments, ancient three orders of ordained ministry (bishops, priests, and deacons), monasticism, use of Deuterocanonical books in liturgy, and use of vestments? We have the fullness of the Catholicity of the Early Church but embraced the protestant reforms that brought us truer to that Catholicity like vernacular liturgies, fuller lay access to the Bible, and reemphasizing Holy Writ's vitality
@karpov89 The point of this video was to talk two priests of different Churchmanship and highlight the differences that can be seen within Anglican through the Eucharist. Canon Travis and Rev. Nick both graciously agreed to do so, however, Canon Travis is not representative of all High Church Priests and Rev. Nick is not representative of all Low Church Priests. I had some excellent unused video of Rev. Nick explaining his own upbringing in High Church Anglicanism.
This is a nice surprise to me to find out this video where two of my school mates from Wcyliffe College demonstrate their churchmanship. Of course, in reality the variety of churchmanship in the Anglican tradition is more than two, and there are many different tones as well. However, it is wonderful to acknowledge despite of our differences, the kind of differences which separate churches, we manage to be one church. Well done!
@karpov89 In the Anglican Church of Canada both Bishops and Priests will wear the alb, stole, chasuble and cope, but will never wear the chasuble and cope together. Only Bishops may wear the Mitre and carry the Crosier. Deacons will wear an Alb with the stole to the side and the Dalmatic instead of a Chasuble. I have a video on deacons actually.
Fair enough. If you really want to go full tilt on high churchmanship, you need to face east, and use an apparatus to hide yourself from the view of the congregation as much as possible, such as a rood screen in the Anglican tradition, or iconostasis, or a retractable curtain (this last approach is used in the Syriac, Armenian and Assyrian churches). The idea is that the liturgical actions of the priests ultimately become a distraction, especially at parts such as the Fraction.
@beswanky Not all High Church Anglicans genuflect, including at the consecration of the elements. If I recall correctly the Sarum Use only had the priest bow after their consecration. As well, in Orthodox Churches the priest will only bow reverently.
In Church of Sweden you can't be ordained but until 1982 you it was a clause of conciousness which meant that priests could be ordained with another view of woman priests.
How is it in the Anglican Church of Canada: may a person who do not accept that woman can be priest be ordanied as deacons and priests? If you already are ordained, can you be elected and ordanied as bishop?
that is the old Medieval usage. Bishops, priests and deacons could be identified by how they wore the stole. However, like many medievalisms, that manner of making the distinction has become increasingly obsolete.
Yes, however, the frequency of their use in Liturgy varies greatly with Parish and the importance of the service. For example, as I attend the Cathedral we will use it for Christmas and Easter Eve services as well as Ordinations but it will be rarely seen on a Sunday. I do know of one Parish here in Edmonton that uses incense and a Thurible every Sunday.
@MapleAnglican Right now we have three bishops who are female, out of 13 dioceses. What is very bad is that one of them is gay without living in celibacy and furthermore liberal. She is bishop of the diocese of Stockholm, where I think the situation is worst in all Sweden. The problem is that if you are unsure about the validity of woman priests, if there is a female bishop ordaining a male priest - is this ordination really valid?
Interesting film. I have a couple of questions though. 1. No mention was made about variations of liturgy. The two priests seemed to be reciting different prayers. I don't know about the USA but in England they tend to use either Common Worship rite or the Book of Common Prayer rite - but here they seemed to be using some other modern rite I haven't heard before. 2. The cassock and sur-plus (sic) was described as 'low church' but in some English anglican churches of the very low, evangelical variety, the priest wears jeans, a fleece and not even a dog collar, so how can a cassock and surplice be 'low' church? I'd say it was 'middle of the road' or 'broad church' myself.
Londonfogey As stated in the video they are using the same Eucharistic Prayer, specifically Eucharistic Prayer 1 from the Book of Alternative Services.
@karpov89 Rev. Nick has made some comments that he wished to clarified his position a little better, however, has never asked me to remove or re-edit this video. Conversely, the Anglican position on the Real Presence is fairly vague which is why you may run into some who believe in Memorialism and others in Transubstantiation.
@karpov89 Very true. While the European Anglican Churches are in Communion with you via the Provoo Communion the remaining members, such as the Anglican Church of Canada, are sadly not. However, we are in Communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada. I always find learning about the Church of Sweden to be very fascinating as it seems very unique for a Lutheran Church.
@Henouk Unfortunately no one realized my pronunciation error until a few weeks after I released this video and you are the fifth person to point this obvious and very stupid mistake of mine.
No problem. I've accidentally called the paten with an extra "t" several times and have utterly -destroyed- several words at times (like "chimere" as "kim-er-ray" for a while...in front of my bishop no less). BTW, please...more videos! I anxiously await your next installment of your History of Anglicanism series. :)
@MapleAnglican It is really interesting to see that the differences seem to be greater within the Anglican communion than in the Church of Sweden which is in communion with the Anglican communion. Here the is no issue about memoralism in the eucharist even within the low church, broad church, old church (orthodox lutherans) and high church.
It's amazing. You spend 4 hours recording and editing your own voice, follow it up with 35 hours plus of video editing listening to your voice over and over and I still missed the fact I had mispronounced some words. :(
Wish it was as simple as this. Many parishes in the middle use vestments and candles too. According to this video my church should be high church but isn't. The clues to churchmanship is more around what the service is called with high church calling it the mass as well as extra ritual and the use of incense. High church parishes will usually only have the mass as their Sunday service and not offer Evensong. And this does not include those parishes that are so evangelical that they are bordering on Pentecostal who have abandoned vesture and most of the liturgy.
Yeah, When Bishops get ordained the service gets even more ornate. I seem there was one for each of the two choirs, one for the Diocesan clergy, one for the ecumenical guests, one for the Bishops of the Province of Rupert's Land, one each for the two co-consecrating Bishops, one for the Primate and one for the Consecrating Archbishop. There may have been a few more in there.
Nick: doesn't believe in the real presence. Travis: does. Explains all the differences in their practice. Which is why Nick doesn't seem to care about doing or not doing certain things in the Mass.
@MapleAnglican As you can see in my videos bishops from Church of England comes to Sweden sometimes to take part in Christian conferences and similar..and as you can see in my videos then can be very different, in one video there is a very low church evangelical bishop who during the mass is dressed only in alb and stole..that would not a Swedish lutheran bishop do at such a festive occasion.
Well the church has retained the practice of the Catholic church before the Vatican II, like also using the color black on Good Friday, instead of red.
@karpov89 for the Norwegian and Danish Churches I can tell you that we Anglicans do not accept Full Communion with *any* other Church unless she is in Apostolic Succession. I can only then conclude that both Churches had recovered it as that is the only logical answer. I know that the EKD is a "mixed" Church with Lutheran and Reformed Churches within one umbrella. I seem to recall that at least some of the member Churches *might* have Apostolic Succession but I can't recall which ones.
@authorion Likely not. I had about an extra 12 minutes of footage with Rev. Nick and about 9-10 minutes with Canon Travis and I had to cut out a lot of stuff to keep the video compact. I do have a blooper or two from the shooting for this video and a few others that I might use some time. Hint: Watch and listen for a cell phone going off in this one.
Have you checked out canon XV of Constantinople I? Seems like there are women deacons; the Greek used here is cheirotonia, which is a formal ordination to the sacred major orders, not cheirothesia, which is given to subdeacons and minor orders. And in the West, it is the same Sacrament of Holy Orders for deacons, priests, and bishops, so if you can be a deacon, then logically, also then, if God calls and wills, a priest or even a bishop. This is Holy Tradition, and I am comforted by it.
Due to the present emergency in Syria, there is a great desire for assistance in both the US and Canada in serving the influx of Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox refugees, and this would provide a great opportunity for Rev. Nick to emerse himself in the eucharistic experience, by serving a number of Divine Liturgies without even giving a sermon; if he would be interested in that, send me a message and I'll contact the Toronto Syriac and Antiochian prelates and put in a good word for him.
@kejcolley We don't have a lot of Methodists left here in Canada since the 1920s when the Methodist Church of Canada united with (most of) the Presbyterian Church in Canada and formed the United Church. The only Methodists remaining are the Free Methodists that are the result of missionary work from the US since the 1960s.
I will say that that also makes a lot of sense. I suppose for a video comparing High Church and Low Church practices, it makes more sense that the viewer can clearly see what the priests are doing. Also I should add, in the ancient Divine Liturgy of St. James (from where we get the hymn "Let all mortal flesh keep silent"), the priests celebrate at an altar facing the congregation, rather than ad Orientum, usually placed in front of the iconostasis in a Byzantine Rite church.
A very interesting video, which shows up too some of the differences between the churches in the USA & here in England. Here (within the church) we rarely would use the 'high' 'low' definition - it would more-likely be 'Catholic' 'Broad' or 'Evangelical'. Also, the references to Methodists - here almost all Methodist Ministers if robed-up would wear Cassock, black preaching gown and hood (maybe preaching bands too) and only occasionally (usually at ecumenical services) would they wear an alb.
@karpov89 Personally since my conversion to Anglicanism I've never had issues with the validity of women in ministry. After 14 years I would say about a third of the Priests in my Diocese were ordained by our present Bishop (Jane Alexander) or her predecessor (Victoria Matthews). At the same time it's important to remember that just because a Priest or Bishop is a woman doesn't necessary make her a Liberal as is evident in our last Bishop.
Since you both know them so well perhaps you can tell us exactly what they have abandoned. I mean, you *must* know both of them better than I if you know what they have abandoned.
@MapleAnglican Yes that is correct, not the chasuble and the stole at the same time, of course. The Swedish deacons are properly ordained unlike most Lutheran churches and they wear the alb and stole like the Anglican church. The Dalmatic is very rare in Sweden, you can see it in one of my videos (mass in Helga trefaldighets kyrka , but actually it is a concelebrating priest wearing it.
By the way, Deondre, just to clarify a bit more on this point, God created one Church through the action of the divine Logos, his only-begotten son, incarnate as Christ. This church later broke itself apart through a series of schisms over relatively petty theological differences at the Council of Ephesus in 431, the Council of Chalcedon in 453, and finally in the Great Schism of 1054, when the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics parted ways.
@MapleAnglican Norwegian priests and bishops wear alb, stole and chasuble (but not when preaching!), Bishops may wear a cope (but priests are not allowed!) but not the mitre and crosier. At the ordination of the bishop of Stavanger an Anglican bishop did take part but it has not happened since then as far as I know.
@karpov89 In the Anglican Church of Canada we do have a small minority that do not support the Ordination of women, however, holding that position can be impractical as we do have Women Bishops now (as does the Church of Sweden if I recall). For example my own Diocese is presently on our Second Bishop that is a Woman. However, I would have to say the Dioceses in the ACC that have had Women Bishops haven't really had more strife than those with only men as Bishops.
I respect them both but warmed more toward Fr. Travis. In our culture we no longer stand in absolute awe and reverence before anyone or anything - not even a hurricane. We bow to no-one, for me that's a problem.
that low church pastor was just like having a 6 mos crash course of seminary
About a week ago I ran into them having a Beer here in Downtown Edmonton. Nick has moved on to a different position and Travis is moving to a different Parish in October.
Good presentation of the Anglican Church. It is Catholic and Protestant at the same time. Holy Writ is our guidline! It is all about worship and not about singing or witnessing a stage show. Get what I am saying? We live on a flat surface, not trying to climb up a mountain. Mankind is on the same course and we have salvation in love only in and through Jesus Christ our only mediator and advocate! Best shown in the Holy Euchurist!
I just recently joined an Episcopal parish and with my recent circumstances, I go to a church that is more high church and one that is closer to low church and I really appreciate this video. Despite the difference in the two, I love the Anglican tradition of the liturgy. I grew up as a Methodist preacher's kid, so I have grown accustomed to liturgy. But I saw that faith grow away from liturgy and into something that was far away from something John and Charles Wesley would be comfortable with.
And I admire how these gents have respect for each other! This is very welcome!
This is the fourth video of yours I've watched today, and I plan on watching more after work. As someone only recently discovering Anglicanism (and "recovering" from Mormonism), thanks for such a large library of thoughtful and well put together videos.
How's the recovery going? I was raised in the two by twos group.
Something I think it strange with Nick's vestments and that he is wearing the stole hanging outside the cincture. In Sweden, if the cincture is used (not always) the stole is inside it and crossed for a priest and hanging for a bishop.
Your videos are always so informative, Maple Anglican! I prefer high church to low church myself, but to each his own.
I'm high church and I appreciate you being so reasonable.
To each his own indeed.
I have really enjoyed all of your videos. I have recently started attending an Anglican Church in the Uk coming from a Pentecostal/Calvinistic background so I would be so low church its not even funny; I have found your videos invaluable to my understanding of the Anglican Communion! Thank you, please make some more.....your friend Vincent.
@pw4489 No, they are both very Anglican. I ended leaving the footage out by Nick was actually raised in a High Church Parish while Travis was raised a Roman Catholic.
Also, in Canada we really don't have many Methodists anymore.
Travis?
I really liked this. Coming from a pretty steep evangelical background I learned a lot about the Anglican Tradition! please make more videos like this
It's interesting that while the entire video cover the liturgical differences between high and low church Anglicans… The theological differences were ignored and glossed over.
Correct. At the end of the video, it’s shocking how you have one priest who views the Eucharist as the literal body of Christ and another who views the Eucharist as a mere symbol of unity. The Anglican Church is not Catholic and Protestant simultaneously. It is a schizophrenic church that does not know what it is.
Best videos on Episcopal Church I've seen, thanks Canuck.
I know at my Cathedral there is one (with torches) for that leads the procession, one for the clergy and occasionally a third if our Bishop is in attendance at the service.
In 2008 at our Bishop's Consecration I lost count of the number of Processional Crosses used, but it would have been on the order of at least 8 or 9.
I especially liked the Canon's way of complete reverence onto The Christ the Son of the living God.
Actually, Canon Travis did a brief Curacy in two Anglo-Catholic Parishes in Toronto and I have seen him do several ad Orientum services since this. We didn't want to move the Altar and I wanted both Priests to have been in the same spot. Also, the gap between the Altar and Reredos was a little small there.
Thank you for your comments, however, you are the seventh person to point those issues out.
By the way, I do strongly wish that Reverend Nick, even as a lowchurchman, would study eucharistic Christianity more. In my opinion, the degree of churchmanship ultimately doesn't matter that much as long as the worship is solemn, (I think high church worship works better in large churches and low church better in chapels and small churches) but a Eucharistic orientation versus a "preaching orientation" is what truly allows the congregation to have a direct experience of the Divine.
For the pentinence of the so beautiful priest Nick: Merci pour ce beau vidéo qui explique en toute simplicité et avec humour les différences entre les 2 grandes tendances de la tradition anglicane. La chandelle brille parmi les ténèbres. La chasuble rendrait encore plus belle ta présidence de l'Eucharistie car la beauté rend gloire au Dieu et Père du Christ Jésus. Thanks to both and big kisses from a RC from QUÉBEC but only ... in french! LOL XOX
@ArmoredEpiscopalian All Saints' Cathedral is considered Broad Church. It has been common to have a High and Low Church priest as either the Dean and Curate which ends up balancing things nicely.
Thank you for your comments. Best Wishes. MA+
A charming video, although both priests tip-toed around the issue of "real presence" in the eucharist. If God can make a flower, He can be mystically present in the elements.
Nick is young, and hasn't fully formed into the apostolic role of priest, which will increase his sacramental confidence at the altar as time goes on.
Don't worry about Nick! I would feel comfortable with either of these priests as my own.
The narrator referred to the cassock as a "Cossack", and the surplice as a "surplus".
And I thought having candles on the altar was an issue left far behind us in the late 1970s (?). We've all had to give and hold our tempers over our own proud 'lil personal Episcopalian "things" and preferences. It's a battle against pride and a lesson in how to get along. Some learned, some moved on - some are still having a difficult time as knowledge and the world change.
How many Episcopalians does it take to change a light bulb ?
THREE. One to make martinis, one to climb the ladder and change the bulb, and one to say " I liked the old one better". Deo Gratias +
My natural inclination is always toward high church. I like Nick, but I find his seeming embarrassment by a more formal ritual rather strange. I was amused by the narrator, who mispronounces almost every liturgical term!
@karpov89 If I recall the Church of Norway and Church of Denmark regained Apostolic Succession through the Church of Sweden as well. I can't remember how the Baltic Churches obtained it. I seem to recall that the EKD is not in Provoo as many of the the Bishops in its member Churches don't have Apostolic Succession.
The Anglican Communion is also in Full Communion with the Old Catholic Union of Utrecht whose orders Rome Does recognize.
Maple Anglican Baltic Lutherans received apostolic succession jointly through both the Church of England and the Church of Sweden..
… Up until that point, I believe the churches had "bishops", (even sitting in the old episcopal sees) but more bishop in the sense of the Methodist church or the Moravians… Not the historic episcopate.
@frsdonahue The point of the video was *not* to show traditional Anglican liturgy, but the differences that can be found between two Priests using the exact same Prayer Book.
@pw4489 Truthful for filming this I asked Nick to "be as Low Church as you want". I have seen Nick be the Celebrant Priest at a Choral Eucharist at the same altar. While Nick is certainly Low Church and tends to be more Protestant than other Anglicans he is still an Anglican priest.
@AotearoaForever Travis said it was a Surplice and its made from a thin cotton linen so I just called it that. You might be correct about the Surplice, but the sleeves are considerably longer than what Roman Catholic clerics wear here in North America.
Truthfully I know of several errors in this video that I leave in much like some authors live with mistakes in their books.
Episcopal is an adjective relating to the office of Bishop, however it can also refer to Anglicanism itself in several parts of the world.
Great video , I am so High Church .
The Cathedral has four crosses actually. I would presume that we borrowed processional crosses from other parishes for the Episcopal Consecration in 2008.
@kejcolley Here in Anglican Church of Canada, and in the Episcopal Church, the term (Anglo-)Catholic and Evangelical are usually only applied to the those who are "very high" or "very low" in their Churchmanship. For instance, Canon Travis rejects the term for himself why still considering himself "High".
Very good and informative video! For me as a Lutheran I think it is strange that not all priests - normally - wear the chasuble during the mass, in Sweden almost all low church priests do, although I am not sure it is a must. Also it is strange that the low church priest has not the same belief in the real presence...is that really allowed?! No or small difference in the Lutheran church. Making the sign of the cross is usually done before the elevation, not after, also a bit strange.
@frsdonahue No one said they were traditional, in fact how they conduct the Eucharistic prayers is the modern way you would see a High Church and a Low Church priest do it. High Church Priests don't have to face East and Low Church Priests don't have to be at the North end of the Altar. Conversely, when filming both Priests I asked them to "show me *exactly* what you would do on any Sunday".
I know Travis very well and he would speak in solid support of it. With Nick I would presume so but I have never questioned him thoroughly on the matter.
Thank you for posting this video. Right now, it looks like I am transitioning into the Episcopal Church here in the States, and am attending an Anglo-Catholic parish in Elmira, NY. I am interested in knowing the differences between High Church and Low Church. I added this to a new playlist, Anglican. Again, thank you!
@jacobsen976 Thank you very much for your comments and God Bless.
@brassspitoon To be frank the one scene with them "joshing" was actually done at my request for the purposes of the video. It actually took a lot to convince them to do that scene. Conversely, I don't know if you are insinuation that either Priests are anything but Heterosexual. If you were I will let you know that to the best of my knowledge both are straight and one is happy married.
May I ask a question? How do you respond to our belief in Apostolic Succession, Real Presence, seven Sacraments, ancient three orders of ordained ministry (bishops, priests, and deacons), monasticism, use of Deuterocanonical books in liturgy, and use of vestments? We have the fullness of the Catholicity of the Early Church but embraced the protestant reforms that brought us truer to that Catholicity like vernacular liturgies, fuller lay access to the Bible, and reemphasizing Holy Writ's vitality
Great comparison!
It would depend on the Parish but there is no special service mandated by the Anglican Church of Canada, not that I am aware of.
@karpov89 The point of this video was to talk two priests of different Churchmanship and highlight the differences that can be seen within Anglican through the Eucharist. Canon Travis and Rev. Nick both graciously agreed to do so, however, Canon Travis is not representative of all High Church Priests and Rev. Nick is not representative of all Low Church Priests. I had some excellent unused video of Rev. Nick explaining his own upbringing in High Church Anglicanism.
Thank you very much and God Bless.
That is, oddly, in my pile of videos I would like to eventually do.
This is a nice surprise to me to find out this video where two of my school mates from Wcyliffe College demonstrate their churchmanship. Of course, in reality the variety of churchmanship in the Anglican tradition is more than two, and there are many different tones as well. However, it is wonderful to acknowledge despite of our differences, the kind of differences which separate churches, we manage to be one church. Well done!
@karpov89 In the Anglican Church of Canada both Bishops and Priests will wear the alb, stole, chasuble and cope, but will never wear the chasuble and cope together. Only Bishops may wear the Mitre and carry the Crosier. Deacons will wear an Alb with the stole to the side and the Dalmatic instead of a Chasuble. I have a video on deacons actually.
Sorry, which words did I mispronounce?
Fair enough. If you really want to go full tilt on high churchmanship, you need to face east, and use an apparatus to hide yourself from the view of the congregation as much as possible, such as a rood screen in the Anglican tradition, or iconostasis, or a retractable curtain (this last approach is used in the Syriac, Armenian and Assyrian churches). The idea is that the liturgical actions of the priests ultimately become a distraction, especially at parts such as the Fraction.
You should do a history of the BCP, also a video on the BCP v.s the BAS would be interesting.
PaladinValer: Sadly I am very busy right now. I have one project that was filmed in January and likely won't get started on editing until December. :(
You're very welcome.
this was useful thank you :)
In Australia, most "low-church" anglicans are also Evangelicals and therefore wouldn't even wear what Nick was wearing!
2:45 Correction: Ankle length ALB, not surplice.
No. The 1985 Book of Alternative Services, specifically Eucharistic Prayer 1 is being used. It's a similar book.
@beswanky Not all High Church Anglicans genuflect, including at the consecration of the elements. If I recall correctly the Sarum Use only had the priest bow after their consecration. As well, in Orthodox Churches the priest will only bow reverently.
In Church of Sweden you can't be ordained but until 1982 you it was a clause of conciousness which meant that priests could be ordained with another view of woman priests.
How is it in the Anglican Church of Canada: may a person who do not accept that woman can be priest be ordanied as deacons and priests? If you already are ordained, can you be elected and ordanied as bishop?
that is the old Medieval usage. Bishops, priests and deacons could be identified by how they wore the stole. However, like many medievalisms, that manner of making the distinction has become increasingly obsolete.
Yes, however, the frequency of their use in Liturgy varies greatly with Parish and the importance of the service. For example, as I attend the Cathedral we will use it for Christmas and Easter Eve services as well as Ordinations but it will be rarely seen on a Sunday. I do know of one Parish here in Edmonton that uses incense and a Thurible every Sunday.
Thank you.
@MapleAnglican Right now we have three bishops who are female, out of 13 dioceses. What is very bad is that one of them is gay without living in celibacy and furthermore liberal. She is bishop of the diocese of Stockholm, where I think the situation is worst in all Sweden. The problem is that if you are unsure about the validity of woman priests, if there is a female bishop ordaining a male priest - is this ordination really valid?
no, it isnt
Interesting film. I have a couple of questions though. 1. No mention was made about variations of liturgy. The two priests seemed to be reciting different prayers. I don't know about the USA but in England they tend to use either Common Worship rite or the Book of Common Prayer rite - but here they seemed to be using some other modern rite I haven't heard before. 2. The cassock and sur-plus (sic) was described as 'low church' but in some English anglican churches of the very low, evangelical variety, the priest wears jeans, a fleece and not even a dog collar, so how can a cassock and surplice be 'low' church? I'd say it was 'middle of the road' or 'broad church' myself.
Londonfogey As stated in the video they are using the same Eucharistic Prayer, specifically Eucharistic Prayer 1 from the Book of Alternative Services.
@karpov89 Rev. Nick has made some comments that he wished to clarified his position a little better, however, has never asked me to remove or re-edit this video. Conversely, the Anglican position on the Real Presence is fairly vague which is why you may run into some who believe in Memorialism and others in Transubstantiation.
@karpov89 Very true. While the European Anglican Churches are in Communion with you via the Provoo Communion the remaining members, such as the Anglican Church of Canada, are sadly not. However, we are in Communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada.
I always find learning about the Church of Sweden to be very fascinating as it seems very unique for a Lutheran Church.
@Henouk Unfortunately no one realized my pronunciation error until a few weeks after I released this video and you are the fifth person to point this obvious and very stupid mistake of mine.
No problem. I've accidentally called the paten with an extra "t" several times and have utterly -destroyed- several words at times (like "chimere" as "kim-er-ray" for a while...in front of my bishop no less). BTW, please...more videos! I anxiously await your next installment of your History of Anglicanism series. :)
You're welcome.
@MapleAnglican It is really interesting to see that the differences seem to be greater within the Anglican communion than in the Church of Sweden which is in communion with the Anglican communion. Here the is no issue about memoralism in the eucharist even within the low church, broad church, old church (orthodox lutherans) and high church.
It's amazing. You spend 4 hours recording and editing your own voice, follow it up with 35 hours plus of video editing listening to your voice over and over and I still missed the fact I had mispronounced some words. :(
Wish it was as simple as this. Many parishes in the middle use vestments and candles too. According to this video my church should be high church but isn't. The clues to churchmanship is more around what the service is called with high church calling it the mass as well as extra ritual and the use of incense. High church parishes will usually only have the mass as their Sunday service and not offer Evensong. And this does not include those parishes that are so evangelical that they are bordering on Pentecostal who have abandoned vesture and most of the liturgy.
Yeah, When Bishops get ordained the service gets even more ornate. I seem there was one for each of the two choirs, one for the Diocesan clergy, one for the ecumenical guests, one for the Bishops of the Province of Rupert's Land, one each for the two co-consecrating Bishops, one for the Primate and one for the Consecrating Archbishop. There may have been a few more in there.
Thank you!
Nick: doesn't believe in the real presence.
Travis: does.
Explains all the differences in their practice. Which is why Nick doesn't seem to care about doing or not doing certain things in the Mass.
Nick doesn't belong in the priesthood, he belongs in a baptist congregation.
Dario Gagliano : Apparently they can believe whatever they like. It doesn't matter.
well said
@MapleAnglican As you can see in my videos bishops from Church of England comes to Sweden sometimes to take part in Christian conferences and similar..and as you can see in my videos then can be very different, in one video there is a very low church evangelical bishop who during the mass is dressed only in alb and stole..that would not a Swedish lutheran bishop do at such a festive occasion.
Well the church has retained the practice of the Catholic church before the Vatican II, like also using the color black on Good Friday, instead of red.
Thanks PaladinValer
@karpov89 for the Norwegian and Danish Churches I can tell you that we Anglicans do not accept Full Communion with *any* other Church unless she is in Apostolic Succession. I can only then conclude that both Churches had recovered it as that is the only logical answer.
I know that the EKD is a "mixed" Church with Lutheran and Reformed Churches within one umbrella. I seem to recall that at least some of the member Churches *might* have Apostolic Succession but I can't recall which ones.
@organeric Which world did I mispronounce?
Convert. For the good of your souls.
@authorion Likely not. I had about an extra 12 minutes of footage with Rev. Nick and about 9-10 minutes with Canon Travis and I had to cut out a lot of stuff to keep the video compact. I do have a blooper or two from the shooting for this video and a few others that I might use some time.
Hint: Watch and listen for a cell phone going off in this one.
Have you checked out canon XV of Constantinople I? Seems like there are women deacons; the Greek used here is cheirotonia, which is a formal ordination to the sacred major orders, not cheirothesia, which is given to subdeacons and minor orders. And in the West, it is the same Sacrament of Holy Orders for deacons, priests, and bishops, so if you can be a deacon, then logically, also then, if God calls and wills, a priest or even a bishop. This is Holy Tradition, and I am comforted by it.
Due to the present emergency in Syria, there is a great desire for assistance in both the US and Canada in serving the influx of Syriac and Antiochian Orthodox refugees, and this would provide a great opportunity for Rev. Nick to emerse himself in the eucharistic experience, by serving a number of Divine Liturgies without even giving a sermon; if he would be interested in that, send me a message and I'll contact the Toronto Syriac and Antiochian prelates and put in a good word for him.
@kejcolley We don't have a lot of Methodists left here in Canada since the 1920s when the Methodist Church of Canada united with (most of) the Presbyterian Church in Canada and formed the United Church. The only Methodists remaining are the Free Methodists that are the result of missionary work from the US since the 1960s.
I will say that that also makes a lot of sense. I suppose for a video comparing High Church and Low Church practices, it makes more sense that the viewer can clearly see what the priests are doing. Also I should add, in the ancient Divine Liturgy of St. James (from where we get the hymn "Let all mortal flesh keep silent"), the priests celebrate at an altar facing the congregation, rather than ad Orientum, usually placed in front of the iconostasis in a Byzantine Rite church.
Amen brother
A very interesting video, which shows up too some of the differences between the churches in the USA & here in England. Here (within the church) we rarely would use the 'high' 'low' definition - it would more-likely be 'Catholic' 'Broad' or 'Evangelical'. Also, the references to Methodists - here almost all Methodist Ministers if robed-up would wear Cassock, black preaching gown and hood (maybe preaching bands too) and only occasionally (usually at ecumenical services) would they wear an alb.
@karpov89 Personally since my conversion to Anglicanism I've never had issues with the validity of women in ministry. After 14 years I would say about a third of the Priests in my Diocese were ordained by our present Bishop (Jane Alexander) or her predecessor (Victoria Matthews). At the same time it's important to remember that just because a Priest or Bishop is a woman doesn't necessary make her a Liberal as is evident in our last Bishop.
Since you both know them so well perhaps you can tell us exactly what they have abandoned. I mean, you *must* know both of them better than I if you know what they have abandoned.
Ok in which perspective are you saying that; in the perspective of the Anglican communion?
I Wonder if Rev. Canon Travis is still an Anglican, or if he joined the Ordinariate?
Very interesting. BTW, is the orans typical of traditional Anglican celebration?
@MapleAnglican Yes that is correct, not the chasuble and the stole at the same time, of course. The Swedish deacons are properly ordained unlike most Lutheran churches and they wear the alb and stole like the Anglican church. The Dalmatic is very rare in Sweden, you can see it in one of my videos (mass in Helga trefaldighets kyrka , but actually it is a concelebrating priest wearing it.
@thejamrocker1 How so?
I think the part after the Sanctus is called the "Institution Narrative", not "Institutional Narrative"
In Judaism there is a similar ritual of hand washing before reciting the HaMotzi and breaking challah.
By the way, Deondre, just to clarify a bit more on this point, God created one Church through the action of the divine Logos, his only-begotten son, incarnate as Christ. This church later broke itself apart through a series of schisms over relatively petty theological differences at the Council of Ephesus in 431, the Council of Chalcedon in 453, and finally in the Great Schism of 1054, when the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics parted ways.
Canon Travis very much takes a High Church view. However, that doesn't mean he's any more or less religious than Nick.
@MapleAnglican Norwegian priests and bishops wear alb, stole and chasuble (but not when preaching!), Bishops may wear a cope (but priests are not allowed!) but not the mitre and crosier. At the ordination of the bishop of Stavanger an Anglican bishop did take part but it has not happened since then as far as I know.
@karpov89 In the Anglican Church of Canada we do have a small minority that do not support the Ordination of women, however, holding that position can be impractical as we do have Women Bishops now (as does the Church of Sweden if I recall). For example my own Diocese is presently on our Second Bishop that is a Woman. However, I would have to say the Dioceses in the ACC that have had Women Bishops haven't really had more strife than those with only men as Bishops.