This was among the things Colonna-Dashwood mentioned: most people don't really taste their coffee so all this fastidious chasing of the perfect cup has very little relevance to most coffee drinkers. Which is fine, but it's also a lesson for the suggestibility of people to what some "expert" tells them. This explains why people can develop a loyalty even to a crude brand name (e.g. Dunkin Donuts, Starbucks, Maxwell House), even as they're making no effort to even make sure their coffee was freshly roasted or ground.
Socratic Coffee has done a few good papers on espresso brewing and such but, not on the fundamentals of brewing. It's a domain full of pseudoscience and low-quality science.
The same is somewhat true for whisky, more the latter half. I still think most awards/ratings for it are pretty rubbish but oddly you'll find most experienced whisky drinkers will be able to say what is good whisky even if they don't like it much. There does seem to be a more pronounced quality curve. I've had some coffees that were certainly 'underrated' but I've also had some coffees that had high cupping scores that really didn't make sense. I would argue in most cases if you can smell the green unroasted bean you can tell whether you will like the coffee unless the roaster completely kills it. Sadly it's not often to be able to smell green beans.
Thanks for the comment! In fuller context, one thing we didn't have time to get to in this video, Maxwell commented that one of the differences between coffee and wine might be to do with the kind of monolithic direction of coffee quality, I.e. That there is only one ideal the field currently inspires to. He said that he did see even now the field diversifying into more categories of “good” than just fruity floral geishas with a lot of body.
Hey, thanks for watching! These kinds of videos give me the excuse to look into a topic that I want to know more about. In this case, I just wanted the epistemology of coffee quality: how do we know what we know or is it all just collective delusion from common advice being circularly passed around?
@@loodog555 I recently got interested in a similar topic on meat consumption, eating and digesting foods, etc., with all of the hype around carnivorous diet and meat benefits, like is it really all just propaganda and unscientific claims, or is there really a concrete way of improving ones life by switching to being a carnivore, and similar epistemological and semasiological questions come to mind, but the whole problem of nutrition seems to be too complicated to grasp)
@@loodog555 I love your skeptical attitude and calm demeanor in how you approach the topics of your research, that's rare nowadays seeing a person asking those questions, especially on this platform)
So interesting! I used to work in a specialty coffee shop where I learned what specialty coffee was and this SCA scale points. Before, I had a strong bias about coffee. When I recieved a coffee that was not a "specialty", it was more likely that I would have a negative opinon on his taste. Nowadays I try to taste every coffee and form myself an opinion about his taste regardless of where does the beans come from or what scale does it have. BTW, sp funny that wine tasters can´t difference between an expensive and a cheap wine hahaha, what a scam.
Yeah, the only objectively true thing about quality here seems to be the freshness of the beans and even that, if you don't taste the difference, who cares? Fresh beans are probably healthier for the antioxidant polyphenols that you get, but if stale tastes the same to you, you can go buy that giant back of Cost Co beans with no roast date on them and be happy as a clam for months!
@@loodog555 Yes, but... Is it the same a hamburger from McDonalds than one hamburger that is with organic meat, fresh veggies and hand-made bread? I don´t think so. The same happens with coffee. There is an objective difference between different coffees. But one should be able to enjoy all types of coffee without bias. "The best palate is not the most exquisite but the broadest." :)
@@pluralidad Yeah, Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood's point is two-fold: (1) not everyone has the time and tastebuds to tune themselves to the difference and (2) not everyone has preferences in the direction we're assuming e.g. some people might just prefer McDonald's, even though lots of snobs would look down on them for having that preference. Actually, point 2 also encompasses his point that, even within fine dining steaks, your preferences might be different than those of the Fine Steaks Association!
Just subscribed I love my coffee and always knew that basically people can't tell the difference between cheap coffee and more expensive coffee. I do wonder if you done any research into fake coffee/ coffee substitute like Chicory coffee.
Hi, thanks for the sub and the comment, but I think you've misinterpreted the video if your takeaway was: "basically people can't tell the difference between cheap coffee and more expensive coffee." Q (or quality) score for a cup of coffee is something you can reliably measure, even double blinded, if you've trained your tastes for it 5:16. This Q score is most of what you're paying for when you get Speciality coffee, as opposed to something mass produced a half continent away. Now, is it worth it? Well, as Maxwell points out, most people don't really taste their coffee, so maybe *you* in particular have better things to do with your life than obsess about coffee flavor. Also, as Maxwell points out, maybe your preferences aren't aligned to those of the "consensus cohort", the self-selected group of people who've gotten together and agree that bright fruity floral geishas with high Q scores are the best thing coffee can aspire to. Bottom line: if you like your coffee, keep it. On the question of chicory (I wouldn't ever call it "fake coffee", as chicory really merits its own category), I did actually do a video about chicory, as the only thing I'm willing to add to my coffee: ua-cam.com/video/tjqUNfbAD3c/v-deo.html and a follow up video where I researched the health benefits of chicory, mostly focused on whether it can reduce anxiety: ua-cam.com/video/e0td8gtwcwc/v-deo.html Hopefully, these will quench your thirst for chicory knowledge!
Double Blind
Tasting we did years ago...
92% of Coffee Drinkers could not even tell the Roast Strength...
This was among the things Colonna-Dashwood mentioned: most people don't really taste their coffee so all this fastidious chasing of the perfect cup has very little relevance to most coffee drinkers. Which is fine, but it's also a lesson for the suggestibility of people to what some "expert" tells them. This explains why people can develop a loyalty even to a crude brand name (e.g. Dunkin Donuts, Starbucks, Maxwell House), even as they're making no effort to even make sure their coffee was freshly roasted or ground.
Socratic Coffee has done a few good papers on espresso brewing and such but, not on the fundamentals of brewing. It's a domain full of pseudoscience and low-quality science.
The same is somewhat true for whisky, more the latter half.
I still think most awards/ratings for it are pretty rubbish but oddly you'll find most experienced whisky drinkers will be able to say what is good whisky even if they don't like it much. There does seem to be a more pronounced quality curve.
I've had some coffees that were certainly 'underrated' but I've also had some coffees that had high cupping scores that really didn't make sense. I would argue in most cases if you can smell the green unroasted bean you can tell whether you will like the coffee unless the roaster completely kills it. Sadly it's not often to be able to smell green beans.
Thanks for the comment! In fuller context, one thing we didn't have time to get to in this video, Maxwell commented that one of the differences between coffee and wine might be to do with the kind of monolithic direction of coffee quality, I.e. That there is only one ideal the field currently inspires to. He said that he did see even now the field diversifying into more categories of “good” than just fruity floral geishas with a lot of body.
Thank you for sharing your research
Hey, thanks for watching! These kinds of videos give me the excuse to look into a topic that I want to know more about. In this case, I just wanted the epistemology of coffee quality: how do we know what we know or is it all just collective delusion from common advice being circularly passed around?
@@loodog555 I recently got interested in a similar topic on meat consumption, eating and digesting foods, etc., with all of the hype around carnivorous diet and meat benefits, like is it really all just propaganda and unscientific claims, or is there really a concrete way of improving ones life by switching to being a carnivore, and similar epistemological and semasiological questions come to mind, but the whole problem of nutrition seems to be too complicated to grasp)
@@loodog555 I love your skeptical attitude and calm demeanor in how you approach the topics of your research, that's rare nowadays seeing a person asking those questions, especially on this platform)
So interesting! I used to work in a specialty coffee shop where I learned what specialty coffee was and this SCA scale points.
Before, I had a strong bias about coffee. When I recieved a coffee that was not a "specialty", it was more likely that I would have a negative opinon on his taste. Nowadays I try to taste every coffee and form myself an opinion about his taste regardless of where does the beans come from or what scale does it have.
BTW, sp funny that wine tasters can´t difference between an expensive and a cheap wine hahaha, what a scam.
Yeah, the only objectively true thing about quality here seems to be the freshness of the beans and even that, if you don't taste the difference, who cares? Fresh beans are probably healthier for the antioxidant polyphenols that you get, but if stale tastes the same to you, you can go buy that giant back of Cost Co beans with no roast date on them and be happy as a clam for months!
@@loodog555 Yes, but... Is it the same a hamburger from McDonalds than one hamburger that is with organic meat, fresh veggies and hand-made bread? I don´t think so.
The same happens with coffee. There is an objective difference between different coffees. But one should be able to enjoy all types of coffee without bias.
"The best palate is not the most exquisite but the broadest." :)
@@pluralidad Yeah, Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood's point is two-fold: (1) not everyone has the time and tastebuds to tune themselves to the difference and (2) not everyone has preferences in the direction we're assuming e.g. some people might just prefer McDonald's, even though lots of snobs would look down on them for having that preference. Actually, point 2 also encompasses his point that, even within fine dining steaks, your preferences might be different than those of the Fine Steaks Association!
@@loodog555 "Fine Steaks Association" HAHAHAHA
Just subscribed I love my coffee and always knew that basically people can't tell the difference between cheap coffee and more expensive coffee.
I do wonder if you done any research into fake coffee/ coffee substitute like Chicory coffee.
Hi, thanks for the sub and the comment, but I think you've misinterpreted the video if your takeaway was: "basically people can't tell the difference between cheap coffee and more expensive coffee."
Q (or quality) score for a cup of coffee is something you can reliably measure, even double blinded, if you've trained your tastes for it 5:16. This Q score is most of what you're paying for when you get Speciality coffee, as opposed to something mass produced a half continent away.
Now, is it worth it? Well, as Maxwell points out, most people don't really taste their coffee, so maybe *you* in particular have better things to do with your life than obsess about coffee flavor. Also, as Maxwell points out, maybe your preferences aren't aligned to those of the "consensus cohort", the self-selected group of people who've gotten together and agree that bright fruity floral geishas with high Q scores are the best thing coffee can aspire to.
Bottom line: if you like your coffee, keep it.
On the question of chicory (I wouldn't ever call it "fake coffee", as chicory really merits its own category), I did actually do a video about chicory, as the only thing I'm willing to add to my coffee: ua-cam.com/video/tjqUNfbAD3c/v-deo.html and a follow up video where I researched the health benefits of chicory, mostly focused on whether it can reduce anxiety: ua-cam.com/video/e0td8gtwcwc/v-deo.html
Hopefully, these will quench your thirst for chicory knowledge!
@@loodog555 Thank you
Penn and Teller bullshit on fine dining!
great research! just subscribed
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed!