In Australia we used to have sand filters for pools. You used to be able to take the head of a pressurised tank and repalace the sand after a year. If you were to half fill it so you still have sand as the filter and empty this would that work. P.S. we had the ability to backwash the system as well just by changing water flow directions through a valve. The pump that was on it was strong enough to run full 1 and 3/4 inch line of hose so maybe 60 litres over 2 minutes. Aussie Jeff Moore
Rather than plugs or caps, use 1"-1.5" pvc ball valves. Not as cheap as the other solutions, but under pressure they should allow for a no-hassle purge and they're made to be under pressure.
great ideas just like drip legs in gas piping I like it but soon enough the pump will have to come out it won't be long before that sand grinds down the impellers in the pump and it won't pump water anymore depending on your well depth
Not too sure how well that would work (placing the sand trap on the suction side). May cause some cavitation plus it's extremely easy to create an air leak on the suction side. Your friend may have the same kind of ground that I do - super fine silty sand. I'm at wit's end trying to get this shallow well to work good. Did the silty mess ever clear up for your friend?
He said it worked. His issue was the grit got into the sprinkler heads and plugged them. It has also worked that way for me. I have another well that is just funky nearly un drinkable water with a punch of fine red silt that trashes the laundry. I put a spin on charcoal filter on it and that made it much better. All of our pumps are above ground in the 3/4-2hp range. Can you just turn it on full bore for a few days and maybe purge all the sand out at once? It floors me that you are sucking enough junk to trash impellers.
Thanks for replying. I've tried running the pump full bore and it seems to plug up the well point in a hurry. I found that restricting the flow to around 4gpm with a ball valve right at the output of the pump. Seems to run a little better a the pump doesn't struggle as much. I believe the real issue is that I'm not quite deep enough (even though it's 56' to the tip of the well point) to be in the aquifer and it's sucking in a lot of real fine silt as a result. I'm really close to the water table where I'm at, but the ground in my area is a super fine sand which is what I'm mostly drawing in (when it dries it's about the particle size of powdered sugar). There has been a little bit of sand, but not much so I honestly don't think that the well point was damaged much on the way down. Production from the well has gotten slightly better over time so maybe things will eventually clear out. Would also like to note that the Wayne Sws50 well pumps don't seem too durable (at least not in my situation). I've been through three impellers plus the diffuser is all shot now. The plastic is way too soft. Bought a cheap 3/4 hp floforce pump and I accidentally cranked the impeller trying to take it all apart to inspect it (tried pulling the impeller off after removing the nut but there was some sort of locking keyway on it). Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any way or anywhere to buy replacement parts for it. Surprisingly there didn't seem to be too much wear on the internals from what I can tell. I may go a little higher end this time like Little Giant or maybe even Gould.
Many thanks for your thoughts and efforts on my behalf. I've decided to first see what is going on down below. For that reason, I am going to pull up the pipe from the well and examine the bottom 3 feet. The 1 1/2" sand point is sitting inside a 4" casing that goes down to about 30 feet. I don't think that the part of the sand point that has the mesh filter screen is beyond the bottom of the PVC casing. It should not be jammed in rocks or gravel enough to be stuck. The main obstacle to withdrawl is that I used 1 1/2 " galvanized pipe instead of PVC. It's heavy as hell but the pipe is in 2 10' sections and 2 5' sections. A friend is willing to help me hoist the pipe and has tools to secure the pipe so as to avoid losing a section of pipe down the well while the each upper section is removed. It may take extra time and effort but my "diagnostic" interest has been piqued and I "got's to know" why the sand is coming up in such large particle sizes. IMHO there has to be a defect, as you have proposed, in the screening at the bottom of the well. So, I will give you a report on what I find after the above has been completed. Just two additional questions: >My foot valve is at the bottom of the well, just above the sand point. Does it really make any difference if the foot valve is at the bottom or near the top of the well?? > IF the screening on the sand point is repaired/replaced and the system re-lowered, is it possible that the larger particles of sand I'm seeing that clog my sprinkler heads, could clog up the outside screening of the sand point?? Also, do you have an e-mail address with which to correspond non-publically?? Again, many THANKS for your interest!! Chip
My foot valve is at the top of the well. All the footvalve has to do is keep the water from draining back down and de-priming the pump. Mine is at the top (immediately out of the pump) because all I could find was a brass one and I didn't think it would survive the pounding of driving the well. I don't think the sand will bother you. Try relocating the foot valve higher up, even right off the pump like mine, that way if the sand or silt does get in and plug the screen you could try blasting a little air at the bottom of the hole as others have suggested to break it loose. With the valve at the bottom you cant get past it to blast backwards at the sandpoint to try and flush it. I do not see the sand being an issue if you can keep it from getting in. The valve at the top isn't as effective because it is holding on the vacuum side (water weight sucking it closed) rather than the pressure side (water weight pushing it closed) but mine has been fine for the last 4 years. Ok after the pump sits for 4 months in the winter the pressure will drop that first time I use it as it deprimes for a few moments but it has always come right back. I am sure that is related to the top valve but as long as I use it regularly never an issue.
screens get damaged while driving. To clean sand out, drop an air hose down the hole and let the air buble the sand and water up. It works and will save time
Been having this problem for a while now and take it apart and send air down it every so often when the sand point fills with sediment (water flow will slow down to a trickle). In hindsight it would have helped a bit to have a short piece of 1&1/4" pipe ahead of the well screen as a sediment catch. This would definitely helped with how often I have to take everything apart to clean it out. Wondering if the silt will ever clear up for me. Tip of well point is 56' down and 8' long (5' and a 3' attached together).
honestly this is way over thinking it. all i use is an old hot water heater. pull water from the top sand settles at the bottom and you can flush the sand periodically with the spigot at the bottom. you can use it in a pressurized system without much losses. you can use a 55 gal drum instead if you wanted. no need to waist your time with such a system.
Not really. A 55 gallon drum wouldn't pass code where I'm at. I tried finding old HW tanks but they were rusted out and still cost almost as much as buying new pvc. The schedule 40 meets code and is rated for pressurized systems. I found the sections for free from a buddies job site and I believe the fittings ran me around 50 bucks which is what people wanted for a clapped out old hot water tank. I only did one dirt leg on my setup and it's been running like a champ for years now. Went from having to purge my Rusco spin down filter weekly to basically never.
I think you are right and I am going to move the foot valve closer to the top of the well near the pump. The way I plumbed the well head, I have a hose bib and joint to the main pipe running down to the sandpoint. If I put the foot valve ABOVE this joint, I would have full access to all the pipe below the pump. With the foot valve just above the sandpoint, I can not ever backflush the sandpoint. Now here is a potential issue. Is it possible that the sandpoint screen can get clogged up with sand particles as the water is sucked up by the pump motor? This is kinda what happens with my EXternal sand filter currently in place. The sand coming up from the bottom of the well clogs up the very fine screen in the external filter and quite quickly reduces water flow beyond the external screen. I have to frequently drain the sand out of the external filter which has an easy to drain valve at the bottom. However, this filter is only about 6 "long and 1" in diameter. It looks to me like the sandpoint screen has a slightly larger mesh so it shouldn't get clogged up as easily. Anyway, here's my current plan: >Disconnect pump from plumbing/pipes >Slowly and carefully raise the galvanized pipe, disconnecting each section and taking care to avoid losing a section down the well casing. >Remove foot valve from bottom of the pipe >Inspect sandpoint for defects. >Replace/repair sandpoint if necessary >Reattach sandpoint and lower piping into well again with attention to proper joints at each section. Again avoid losing a section into the well. >Reattach foot valve at top of the piping below pump but slightly above the "clean out" joint/bib that gives clear access to the sandpoint. >Reattach pump, prime and run to see if the sandpoint is functioning properly again. >Leave external sand filter in place to see how much sand is getting past the sandpoint. >Attempt to backflush the sandpoint if the water flow seems to become obstructed by a newly clogged sandpoint. Do you have any other suggestions?? If this doesn't work I might remove the whole sandpoint, put a 3' section of perforated PVC (to allow water access) at the bottom of the well and install a much larger EXternal sand filter as per your design. Thanks!! Chip
Maybe compare the mesh of your sandpoint to others if nothing is wrong with it. Good luck. I have pulled them before by clamping a pipe wrench to it and using a highlift jack but then I also broke a pipe wrench in the attempt. The second one made it.
yep, but spend the extra few dollars for the screw/union type that have o-rings. Easy to replace when the day comes. I use a regular home shop compressor with about a 30 gal tank. Take the fitting iff the end of hose and lower it in. Just needs to bubble stuff up, not build uppressure, if you have room to put a garden hose down with the air hose, it helps in floating bubbling the sand up.
I was worried that sand would sit in the gate trap and then wouldn't seal but I suppose that is all in orientation. I built that stupid thing so much larger than it needed to be, about the time I got it done the well stopped puking sand.
In Australia we used to have sand filters for pools. You used to be able to take the head of a pressurised tank and repalace the sand after a year. If you were to half fill it so you still have sand as the filter and empty this would that work.
P.S. we had the ability to backwash the system as well just by changing water flow directions through a valve. The pump that was on it was strong enough to run full 1 and 3/4 inch line of hose so maybe 60 litres over 2 minutes. Aussie Jeff Moore
Rather than plugs or caps, use 1"-1.5" pvc ball valves. Not as cheap as the other solutions, but under pressure they should allow for a no-hassle purge and they're made to be under pressure.
Why not gate valves for the bottom dumps?
you might get better result by using Y shape tee joint
I did this and it worked perfectly, thanks
You have to watch out bc this 4" PVC is not made for pressurized function
@@robertnguyen7153 : But under a VACUUM ???? Before the well pump ?
Schedule 40 is rated for 200 lb/sq.in.
great ideas just like drip legs in gas piping I like it but soon enough the pump will have to come out it won't be long before that sand grinds down the impellers in the pump and it won't pump water anymore depending on your well depth
true enough, we should suck through the trap to reduce the sand in the pump
Not too sure how well that would work (placing the sand trap on the suction side). May cause some cavitation plus it's extremely easy to create an air leak on the suction side. Your friend may have the same kind of ground that I do - super fine silty sand. I'm at wit's end trying to get this shallow well to work good. Did the silty mess ever clear up for your friend?
He said it worked. His issue was the grit got into the sprinkler heads and plugged them. It has also worked that way for me. I have another well that is just funky nearly un drinkable water with a punch of fine red silt that trashes the laundry. I put a spin on charcoal filter on it and that made it much better. All of our pumps are above ground in the 3/4-2hp range. Can you just turn it on full bore for a few days and maybe purge all the sand out at once? It floors me that you are sucking enough junk to trash impellers.
Thanks for replying. I've tried running the pump full bore and it seems to plug up the well point in a hurry. I found that restricting the flow to around 4gpm with a ball valve right at the output of the pump. Seems to run a little better a the pump doesn't struggle as much. I believe the real issue is that I'm not quite deep enough (even though it's 56' to the tip of the well point) to be in the aquifer and it's sucking in a lot of real fine silt as a result. I'm really close to the water table where I'm at, but the ground in my area is a super fine sand which is what I'm mostly drawing in (when it dries it's about the particle size of powdered sugar). There has been a little bit of sand, but not much so I honestly don't think that the well point was damaged much on the way down. Production from the well has gotten slightly better over time so maybe things will eventually clear out. Would also like to note that the Wayne Sws50 well pumps don't seem too durable (at least not in my situation). I've been through three impellers plus the diffuser is all shot now. The plastic is way too soft. Bought a cheap 3/4 hp floforce pump and I accidentally cranked the impeller trying to take it all apart to inspect it (tried pulling the impeller off after removing the nut but there was some sort of locking keyway on it). Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any way or anywhere to buy replacement parts for it. Surprisingly there didn't seem to be too much wear on the internals from what I can tell. I may go a little higher end this time like Little Giant or maybe even Gould.
I thought of the multiple 4" down tubes, ball valve to exterior drain, but down tubes 4'-5' long.
At the end a long cartridge filter.
Many thanks for your thoughts and efforts on my behalf.
I've decided to first see what is going on down below.
For that reason, I am going to pull up the pipe from the well and examine the bottom 3 feet. The 1 1/2" sand point is sitting inside a 4" casing that goes down to about 30 feet.
I don't think that the part of the sand point that has the mesh filter screen is beyond the bottom of the PVC casing. It should not be jammed in rocks or gravel enough to be stuck.
The main obstacle to withdrawl is that I used 1 1/2 " galvanized pipe instead of PVC.
It's heavy as hell but the pipe is in 2 10' sections and 2 5' sections.
A friend is willing to help me hoist the pipe and has tools to secure the pipe so as to avoid losing a section of pipe down the well while the each upper section is removed.
It may take extra time and effort but my "diagnostic" interest has been piqued and I "got's to know" why the sand is coming up in such large particle sizes.
IMHO there has to be a defect, as you have proposed, in the screening at the bottom of the well.
So, I will give you a report on what I find after the above has been completed.
Just two additional questions:
>My foot valve is at the bottom of the well, just above the sand point.
Does it really make any difference if the foot valve is at the bottom or near the top of the well??
> IF the screening on the sand point is repaired/replaced and the system re-lowered, is it possible that the larger particles of sand I'm seeing that clog my sprinkler heads, could clog up the outside screening of the sand point??
Also, do you have an e-mail address with which to correspond non-publically??
Again, many THANKS for your interest!!
Chip
My foot valve is at the top of the well. All the footvalve has to do is keep the water from draining back down and de-priming the pump. Mine is at the top (immediately out of the pump) because all I could find was a brass one and I didn't think it would survive the pounding of driving the well. I don't think the sand will bother you. Try relocating the foot valve higher up, even right off the pump like mine, that way if the sand or silt does get in and plug the screen you could try blasting a little air at the bottom of the hole as others have suggested to break it loose. With the valve at the bottom you cant get past it to blast backwards at the sandpoint to try and flush it.
I do not see the sand being an issue if you can keep it from getting in. The valve at the top isn't as effective because it is holding on the vacuum side (water weight sucking it closed) rather than the pressure side (water weight pushing it closed) but mine has been fine for the last 4 years. Ok after the pump sits for 4 months in the winter the pressure will drop that first time I use it as it deprimes for a few moments but it has always come right back. I am sure that is related to the top valve but as long as I use it regularly never an issue.
NelsonStudios
screens get damaged while driving. To clean sand out, drop an air hose down the hole and let the air buble the sand and water up. It works and will save time
Been having this problem for a while now and take it apart and send air down it every so often when the sand point fills with sediment (water flow will slow down to a trickle). In hindsight it would have helped a bit to have a short piece of 1&1/4" pipe ahead of the well screen as a sediment catch. This would definitely helped with how often I have to take everything apart to clean it out. Wondering if the silt will ever clear up for me. Tip of well point is 56' down and 8' long (5' and a 3' attached together).
Before i found this video, I tried but with smaller pipe size 2", it does work. More chamber is better.
honestly this is way over thinking it. all i use is an old hot water heater. pull water from the top sand settles at the bottom and you can flush the sand periodically with the spigot at the bottom. you can use it in a pressurized system without much losses. you can use a 55 gal drum instead if you wanted. no need to waist your time with such a system.
Sounds good I think I will try that. This is the first logical bit of advice I have seen regarding this issue, thanks.
correct
Ok
Not really. A 55 gallon drum wouldn't pass code where I'm at. I tried finding old HW tanks but they were rusted out and still cost almost as much as buying new pvc. The schedule 40 meets code and is rated for pressurized systems. I found the sections for free from a buddies job site and I believe the fittings ran me around 50 bucks which is what people wanted for a clapped out old hot water tank. I only did one dirt leg on my setup and it's been running like a champ for years now. Went from having to purge my Rusco spin down filter weekly to basically never.
Just put screen on the left side of the T junctions, the sediments would fall down into the traps.
I think you are right and I am going to move the foot valve closer to the top of the well near the pump. The way I plumbed the well head, I have a hose bib and joint to the main pipe running down to the sandpoint. If I put the foot valve ABOVE this joint, I would have full access to all the pipe below the pump.
With the foot valve just above the sandpoint, I can not ever backflush the sandpoint.
Now here is a potential issue. Is it possible that the sandpoint screen can get clogged up with sand particles as the water is sucked up by the pump motor?
This is kinda what happens with my EXternal sand filter currently in place.
The sand coming up from the bottom of the well clogs up the very fine screen in the external filter and quite quickly reduces water flow beyond the external screen.
I have to frequently drain the sand out of the external filter which has an easy to drain valve at the bottom. However, this filter is only about 6 "long and 1" in diameter.
It looks to me like the sandpoint screen has a slightly larger mesh so it shouldn't get clogged up as easily.
Anyway, here's my current plan:
>Disconnect pump from plumbing/pipes
>Slowly and carefully raise the galvanized pipe, disconnecting each section and taking care to avoid losing a section down the well casing.
>Remove foot valve from bottom of the pipe
>Inspect sandpoint for defects.
>Replace/repair sandpoint if necessary
>Reattach sandpoint and lower piping into well again with attention to proper joints at each section. Again avoid losing a section into the well.
>Reattach foot valve at top of the piping below pump but slightly above the "clean out" joint/bib that gives clear access to the sandpoint.
>Reattach pump, prime and run to see if the sandpoint is functioning properly again.
>Leave external sand filter in place to see how much sand is getting past the sandpoint.
>Attempt to backflush the sandpoint if the water flow seems to become obstructed by a newly clogged sandpoint.
Do you have any other suggestions??
If this doesn't work I might remove the whole sandpoint, put a 3' section of perforated PVC (to allow water access) at the bottom of the well and install a much larger EXternal sand filter as per your design.
Thanks!!
Chip
Maybe compare the mesh of your sandpoint to others if nothing is wrong with it. Good luck. I have pulled them before by clamping a pipe wrench to it and using a highlift jack but then I also broke a pipe wrench in the attempt. The second one made it.
centrifugal filter 25-50 dollars works great and has a valve with it for the flush when needed.
I should check that out. Even with free pipe I am in mine more than that in just fittings.
I've built this and I've used the rusco spin down filters. This pvc setup is by far the best solution for fine particle sand.
use ball valves. The gray pvc ones that are the union type
That is an idea, big 2 inch pvc valve would make them easy to dump.
yep, but spend the extra few dollars for the screw/union type that have o-rings. Easy to replace when the day comes. I use a regular home shop compressor with about a 30 gal tank. Take the fitting iff the end of hose and lower it in. Just needs to bubble stuff up, not build uppressure, if you have room to put a garden hose down with the air hose, it helps in floating bubbling the sand up.
A tee is uniform in and out, a tee wye has a directional branch for drainage or venting, so for your purposes you would need a tee wye, not a tee.
I will try that on my well
You can use gate valves
I was worried that sand would sit in the gate trap and then wouldn't seal but I suppose that is all in orientation. I built that stupid thing so much larger than it needed to be, about the time I got it done the well stopped puking sand.
I see, the is solved then
use a old hot water tank with a little reverse engineering works great
I bet. Hold a lot of sand before it failed too.
+NelsonStudios no reason for it to fail you have a drain valve to release the sand
Was easier for me to find reliable new pvc than an old junked out tank everybody still thinks is worth 50 bucks.
Try putting ball valves on the outlets.
Nice idea.