it is sad that they changed the dialogues, but i don't necessarily see what is wrong with not changing the idiom? in the english language, man can also be used in a gender neutral sense in order to refer to any human being
Because it's unnecessary. Due to the limitations of the English language versus the Japanese one, there are definitely certain things that would need to be changed in order to flow better (like the Tsunotaru vs Hornton thing, or some of Caters meme-speak). However, that isn't the case for most of them, and it's definitely not the case for "Words make the person" vs "words make the man." Because it flows fine either way and is therefore an unnecessary change, it calls into question why exactly they made that choice. The EN translation does it a lot actually, and while there are some situations where it makes sense, there are others (like this one) where it doesn't.
Quick question about Leona. Is it possible he's speaking rudely here in the JP dialogue? I always thought he was given his smug expression is used. Either way, while Leona certainly meant "pretty little head" to be patronizing I never took Lilia's saying it nor Trey's "boa feathers ruffled" in that way as the context conveys it as good-natured teasing and not something to be taken negatively. Vil using the idiom I feel would've had a problem whether it stayed gendered or not since "words make the person" sounds a bit awkward. Fortunately using "words make the man" isn't necessarily compromising Vil's character, as "man" can also be used as a gender-neutral word.
This is a very good point!! I actually almost didn't include Leona's line here because while he isn't being rude, he is being sarcastic, but I fascinated by how they reused Lilia's dialogue with Leona ^^ Leona is, actually, speaking very politely! Literally translated he is formally saying "You do not need to worry about me because, thanks to your efforts, sleeping is one thing I do very well." Leona using very polite, formal speech in a sarcastic manner is very common for him ^^ Since this isn't really something that can be translated into English, which has no equivalent to formal speech in Japanese, it makes sense that they changed it out with an insult, instead! As you say it might not be the best example for this video. I might have been too excited about the recycled line :
@@YuuRei20 No worries, it's all right. 😄 And that's very interesting! Leona using formal speech in a sarcastic way makes him even more like a cat to me.😆 While there isn't an exact equivalent like you said, I believe it's possible to get something close to it, at least in this instance. Off the top of my head, something like "You needn't worry yourself. Sleeping is what I do best, but your concern is "so very much" appreciated." could work. Polite and formal while the quotations denote sarcasm, along with Leona's expression helping in the overall tone.
@@FudgemintGuardian That is a perfect alternative!! It would be amazing to hear Leona speaking formal English sometimes, I would love it ♡ Thank you so much for pointing this out! I will be more careful!!
I don’t know if it’s an English or Gender thing here in America but whenever I use the word beautiful or pretty when describing a guy’s feature my mom always tries to correct me by saying that I should saying handsome not beautiful.
I notice the EN version inserts "man" a lot into dialogue even when it's just "hito"/"person" in the spoken version. Nice to see the JP and EN written dialogue against each other here. It's also interesting to me that people default refer to Vil as "he" when they use "atashi" to refer to themselves. Is there a reason for this that I'm missing since I've only played the EN version?
Hello hello! Vil refers to himself as male (Book 5, he calls himself a high school boy in a line that was removed from EN), which is maybe where the "he" is coming from! :> And I agree! I did not notice until Book 6, but in many places where the Japanese text uses gender-neutral terminology the EN game will change it to things like "boys," "ma'am," etc. Possibly just a limitation of the English language, as they attempt to make it natural sounding?
Adding to YuuRei's comment, I see no reason why he wouldn't use he/him English pronouns when, as they point out, he's perfectly comfortable stating he's male (or at least a boy). Additionally, I'd have to assume he's comfortable enough presenting or passing as male to accept an invitation to an all-boys school. Therefore I don't understand why others, in turn, WOULDN'T default to calling Vil by he/him.
I think it's great that fluid characters like this exist and make people question traditional ideas about pronouns and gender presentation. You can be non binary and choose to go any kind of institution (provided they aren't bigoted) and also use any pronouns. It doesn't necessarily imply your gender ID. For example, there are frats and sororities which are open to non binary people. It could be that Vil is afab transmasc or amab transfemme, we just aren't privy to that info with the way the story is written. I think the blurring of gender lines is intentional. I love it. The usage of self referential pronouns don't translate well between languages. it's an issue not just in this game but in other places too. We're at a time where language and ideas about gender are changing which is super cool
@@liptoncunningham6666 If Vil ended up being trans or non binary it would defeat his purpose of breaking gender stereotype and toxic masculinity. It would only say yes regular boys can't like fashion, make up, beauty or being elegant, you'll have to be a female, non binary or trans for that. But if you're 100% boy you'll have to stick to being masculine and rough.
@@vroscham Interesting take! We will likely never know what Vil's gender ID is, making all our interpretations equally speculative. I do want to understand what you're saying though. Please correct me if I'm wrong. what I hear you saying is that to deconstruct toxic masculinity one needs to be a cis male?
Question: According to the EN bio, Vil is 18. But I recall JP fan translations saying that he's 19. So, I've always been a bit confused on his age. Which of the two do you think it is?
Hello hello! Thank you for this question! Vil is 18 ^^ He says so himself twice during Book 6! Chapter 49 (removed from EN) and on both servers in Chapter 80! "I'm only 18, yet here I am, a wizened old grandpa..." I am not sure where the JP fan translations got their information :>
The English translation also doesn’t carry over his feminine way of speaking. Mostly because it cannot be translated, as there are no different “I” forms in English, or ending particles. It’s a shame because that aspect of him really makes me warm up to his character even more, as he reminds me of the gay and transgender communities in Japan. If I had to make a choice on how I would go about translating it, I might have characters occasionally call vil “she” like people often say to drag queens as they perform. Even still, this fix can only change how people refer to him and not how he refers to himself.
Honestly I can see Vil loving beeing called a she. I also don't like how they only call him handsome is the eng version. It's like the higger ups are affraid of calling a man pretty or beautiful, besides, idk how to explain it but Vil si more beautiful than handsome
@@novembers_GH0ST YES!!! For example, Leona and Trey are handsome but Vil (and also Jade in my opinion) is beautiful. I can even picture him modeling dresses and having a feminine walk
Yes, I noticed this as well. Vil strikes me as very non binary, so it's odd to me that Vil is also referred to constantly as "he" despite using "atashi"....
there's something that feels so malicious about vil's en writing in general. vil refers to herself with a feminine personal pronoun and is very serious about her disdain for needless gendering of things and yet they don't even allow her to be called beautiful or anything similar to it because shes a "guy". i just can't wrap my head around why they would keep her monologues about gender if they were going to bastardize the rest of her character's relationship to beauty and gender....
Did you see the thing about book 5 changes? It points out in there that Vil actually calls himself a boy in the original game, iirc. (removed from EN tho)
The fact that he is a guy who wears makeup and takes care of his beauty does not make him a girl. Yes, he uses atashi, but the whole point of the character is that he is a fairly strong guy who deals "women's things" i.e. puts on makeup and takes care of her beauty, showing that such activities have no gender. You try to be tolerant, but you only make things worse. I have nothing against transgender people, but don’t think that Wil is one of them.
I feel like if you told Vil something about his "feathers getting ruffled" he would give you a dirty look and then slap you
Vil Schoenheit said "Fuck toxic masculinity"
Sure loves toxic femininity though :T
it is sad that they changed the dialogues, but i don't necessarily see what is wrong with not changing the idiom? in the english language, man can also be used in a gender neutral sense in order to refer to any human being
coming back to this; an example is the word "man-made horrors". it's meaning is not horrors made by a male, but rather horrors created by *a* human
Because it's unnecessary. Due to the limitations of the English language versus the Japanese one, there are definitely certain things that would need to be changed in order to flow better (like the Tsunotaru vs Hornton thing, or some of Caters meme-speak). However, that isn't the case for most of them, and it's definitely not the case for "Words make the person" vs "words make the man."
Because it flows fine either way and is therefore an unnecessary change, it calls into question why exactly they made that choice. The EN translation does it a lot actually, and while there are some situations where it makes sense, there are others (like this one) where it doesn't.
Quick question about Leona. Is it possible he's speaking rudely here in the JP dialogue? I always thought he was given his smug expression is used. Either way, while Leona certainly meant "pretty little head" to be patronizing I never took Lilia's saying it nor Trey's "boa feathers ruffled" in that way as the context conveys it as good-natured teasing and not something to be taken negatively.
Vil using the idiom I feel would've had a problem whether it stayed gendered or not since "words make the person" sounds a bit awkward. Fortunately using "words make the man" isn't necessarily compromising Vil's character, as "man" can also be used as a gender-neutral word.
This is a very good point!! I actually almost didn't include Leona's line here because while he isn't being rude, he is being sarcastic, but I fascinated by how they reused Lilia's dialogue with Leona ^^ Leona is, actually, speaking very politely! Literally translated he is formally saying "You do not need to worry about me because, thanks to your efforts, sleeping is one thing I do very well."
Leona using very polite, formal speech in a sarcastic manner is very common for him ^^ Since this isn't really something that can be translated into English, which has no equivalent to formal speech in Japanese, it makes sense that they changed it out with an insult, instead! As you say it might not be the best example for this video. I might have been too excited about the recycled line :
@@YuuRei20 No worries, it's all right. 😄
And that's very interesting! Leona using formal speech in a sarcastic way makes him even more like a cat to me.😆
While there isn't an exact equivalent like you said, I believe it's possible to get something close to it, at least in this instance. Off the top of my head, something like "You needn't worry yourself. Sleeping is what I do best, but your concern is "so very much" appreciated." could work. Polite and formal while the quotations denote sarcasm, along with Leona's expression helping in the overall tone.
@@FudgemintGuardian That is a perfect alternative!! It would be amazing to hear Leona speaking formal English sometimes, I would love it ♡ Thank you so much for pointing this out! I will be more careful!!
I don’t know if it’s an English or Gender thing here in America but whenever I use the word beautiful or pretty when describing a guy’s feature my mom always tries to correct me by saying that I should saying handsome not beautiful.
I notice the EN version inserts "man" a lot into dialogue even when it's just "hito"/"person" in the spoken version. Nice to see the JP and EN written dialogue against each other here. It's also interesting to me that people default refer to Vil as "he" when they use "atashi" to refer to themselves. Is there a reason for this that I'm missing since I've only played the EN version?
Hello hello! Vil refers to himself as male (Book 5, he calls himself a high school boy in a line that was removed from EN), which is maybe where the "he" is coming from! :> And I agree! I did not notice until Book 6, but in many places where the Japanese text uses gender-neutral terminology the EN game will change it to things like "boys," "ma'am," etc. Possibly just a limitation of the English language, as they attempt to make it natural sounding?
Adding to YuuRei's comment, I see no reason why he wouldn't use he/him English pronouns when, as they point out, he's perfectly comfortable stating he's male (or at least a boy). Additionally, I'd have to assume he's comfortable enough presenting or passing as male to accept an invitation to an all-boys school. Therefore I don't understand why others, in turn, WOULDN'T default to calling Vil by he/him.
I think it's great that fluid characters like this exist and make people question traditional ideas about pronouns and gender presentation. You can be non binary and choose to go any kind of institution (provided they aren't bigoted) and also use any pronouns. It doesn't necessarily imply your gender ID. For example, there are frats and sororities which are open to non binary people. It could be that Vil is afab transmasc or amab transfemme, we just aren't privy to that info with the way the story is written. I think the blurring of gender lines is intentional. I love it. The usage of self referential pronouns don't translate well between languages. it's an issue not just in this game but in other places too. We're at a time where language and ideas about gender are changing which is super cool
@@liptoncunningham6666 If Vil ended up being trans or non binary it would defeat his purpose of breaking gender stereotype and toxic masculinity. It would only say yes regular boys can't like fashion, make up, beauty or being elegant, you'll have to be a female, non binary or trans for that. But if you're 100% boy you'll have to stick to being masculine and rough.
@@vroscham Interesting take! We will likely never know what Vil's gender ID is, making all our interpretations equally speculative. I do want to understand what you're saying though. Please correct me if I'm wrong. what I hear you saying is that to deconstruct toxic masculinity one needs to be a cis male?
Question: According to the EN bio, Vil is 18. But I recall JP fan translations saying that he's 19. So, I've always been a bit confused on his age. Which of the two do you think it is?
Hello hello! Thank you for this question! Vil is 18 ^^ He says so himself twice during Book 6! Chapter 49 (removed from EN) and on both servers in Chapter 80! "I'm only 18, yet here I am, a wizened old grandpa..."
I am not sure where the JP fan translations got their information :>
The English translation also doesn’t carry over his feminine way of speaking. Mostly because it cannot be translated, as there are no different “I” forms in English, or ending particles. It’s a shame because that aspect of him really makes me warm up to his character even more, as he reminds me of the gay and transgender communities in Japan. If I had to make a choice on how I would go about translating it, I might have characters occasionally call vil “she” like people often say to drag queens as they perform. Even still, this fix can only change how people refer to him and not how he refers to himself.
Honestly I can see Vil loving beeing called a she.
I also don't like how they only call him handsome is the eng version. It's like the higger ups are affraid of calling a man pretty or beautiful, besides, idk how to explain it but Vil si more beautiful than handsome
@@luzcalderon7808 exactly, when i see vil, the word "handsome" never comes to mind... "beautiful" "pretty" and "gorgeous" do though.
@@novembers_GH0ST YES!!! For example, Leona and Trey are handsome but Vil (and also Jade in my opinion) is beautiful. I can even picture him modeling dresses and having a feminine walk
Also! Also! Japanese has no need to specify third person pronouns, so there’s that
Yes, I noticed this as well. Vil strikes me as very non binary, so it's odd to me that Vil is also referred to constantly as "he" despite using "atashi"....
there's something that feels so malicious about vil's en writing in general. vil refers to herself with a feminine personal pronoun and is very serious about her disdain for needless gendering of things and yet they don't even allow her to be called beautiful or anything similar to it because shes a "guy". i just can't wrap my head around why they would keep her monologues about gender if they were going to bastardize the rest of her character's relationship to beauty and gender....
Did you see the thing about book 5 changes? It points out in there that Vil actually calls himself a boy in the original game, iirc. (removed from EN tho)
@@ライオン耳 that just makes EN's writing for her even more complicated for no reason. EN staff can't keep Vil consistent to save their lives.
The fact that he is a guy who wears makeup and takes care of his beauty does not make him a girl. Yes, he uses atashi, but the whole point of the character is that he is a fairly strong guy who deals "women's things" i.e. puts on makeup and takes care of her beauty, showing that such activities have no gender.
You try to be tolerant, but you only make things worse. I have nothing against transgender people, but don’t think that Wil is one of them.