Price is obscene today, however, will be really cool if they can achieve extremely high volume production to bring that down to reasonable prices. Thanks for sharing John!
The weight savings will help with fuel economy/range, but until CF wheels reach price parity with aluminum, they will only be used in premium products. So, it is cool to learn about these, but I am watching to see how cost changes.
@@chriauc2976 I see, thanks. Raw materials input costs as the limit suggest eventually they'll be competitively priced. Don't expect that any time soon however, "Write's Law" surely applies here, a certain percentage mfg cost reduction for every doubling of production capacity.
Also very expensive single use molds. Single use dimensionally exact to the single size/style of wheel. So need a reasonably large # of units to be made per each wheel type/size to spread the cost of the high tolerance molds used in manufacture.
@@chriauc2976 Considering all the advantages, all they need is to get the price down to about a third of that and I'd go for it. And I'm not even that hard core of a car guy.
Gordon Murray’s answer when asked about Carbon wheels is that they are great until the wheels hit something. Then they disintegrate. So if you get them, don’t curb them.\
That doesn't tell the whole story. They'll shatter with a huge impact, but are 2-3 times more resilient than aluminium in a low/moderate impact and won't deform at the rim. They are pretty tough.
To help put the cost into perspective on the 2024 Corvette Z06 Carbon Fiber Wheels option is $14K and with a red stripe they are $15.5K so it may be a while before they go main stream
for a bit of context, the price of a set of Carbon Revolution wheels for the Corvette Z06 is actually way DOWN compared to when the wheels first arrived on the 2016 Mustang GT350R. now in 2023 you can easily pay MORE for a set of 2 pc or 3pc wheels from a premium tuner HRE, BBS, or Rays like seen on many of the cars displayed at SEMA so gains (not just in weight savings) have indeed been made the last 7 years. not sure what the option cost was for the Carbon Revolution wheels made for the F8 Tributo or the 488 Pista...? but it's not like you're going to escape having to pay the requisite "Ferrari Tax" if you're legit shopping for one of those anyway.
I wonder how you go for rim rash repairs. I know there are specialised repairers for carbon bicycle frame but can't imagine they're as forgiving as alloy. I'd like to see wheels and tires become more sensible and less driven by fashion. The amount being spent on rim and tyre damage is insane and getting worse as the trend to 20"+ wheels explodes. Smaller diameter wheels with wider tyres that offer some curb damage protection for most vehicles would be a great trend IMO.
Yep. We've been waiting for this trend to reverse for decades now. With EV & PHEV, brake sizes can be reduced, so there goes that excuse for huge wheels. Was hoping a design disruptor (like maybe an ID Buzz with retro whitewalls) could make juicy sudewalls cool again.
Stock (CREV) will be interested to watch (I would not buy until it bottoms out). Huge hype will calm down to a rational price eventually. P/E is currently over 2,000 (Tesla < 100 P/E).
Hey John, you know Sandy M. is involved with Aptera. They're all about efficiencies and light wt . And only 3 wheels to worry about. Perhaps Sandy can nudge Chris and Steve to take a look?
@@krisg.4257 Agreed. Keep in mind it will be two yrs before Aptera is in full production. Maybe by then a North or South American manufacturing plant will be producing these awesome wheels at economies of scale?
@@Randy-Jan even better evolution would be a carbon fiber centre hub wheel for airless tyres to be applied to EVs with in-hub electric motors but don't know anyone looking in to that. They would have to partner with Michelin or other tyres manufacturers developing the technology. 👍
My Mini Cooper electric Enkei RPF1 wheel weighs 15.2 pounds each, so with these I can bring it down to 7.5 pounds each wheel, I wonder how much these wheels would improve my range?
RPF1 are indeed the benchmark for "traditional" low weight. I have 16" setup for my BRZ for winter tires and it stunning how much fun it adds to the "off season".
Q: I wonder how much these wheels would improve my range? A: very little for the added cost you would pay (ref: Law of Diminishing Returns) like the man said you're already "living the RPF1 dream" so enjoy.
Solid disk wheels? Yes, please. The best Aluminum wheels out there now are fully forged, but they always give up aerodynamics to save weight. CF solid disk wheels would solve that problem. Unfortunately, I still will not be able to afford them, lol.
Rotating unsprung mass is roughly 2X as effective as the rest of vehicle in terms of acceleration energy requirements, wheels have both linear and rotational inertia, plus allows for better suspension performance. Another way to look at it is cutting given component mass by 2X is huge, apply that to entire vehicle body and structure. Will take a long time before it's generally affordable no doubt.
Still extremely pricey and easily crack if go a bump and/or divot at faster speeds -60+ mph!😮 Not for regular streets/highways in the U.S. where road surface is poorly maintained.😂
A: unfortunately per FIA/FIM safety rules afaik no carbon wheels are homologated for use anywhere in Motorsports. Forged Magnesium is the best you're gonna get.
Carbon Revolution has no info on wheels for Tesla. I would love lighter wheels that the Tesla Aero covers can be attached to. Removing unsprung weight is important and 24+lbs is a big deal, but if you can't be aerodynamic the value is drastically reduced in an EV.
Everyone saying it’s too expensive, I’m pretty sure they will be doing everything they can to drop the price now. They mentioned offshoring right off the bat. This is no different to Tesla starting expensive and then making more and more affordable models. Also if a company buys 100s of theses there will be a large markup. If a company buys say 1M then the markup can easily fall for an order that size. They will get cheaper.
Bob Putz is a dinosaur & way out of touch with today’s technology. Remember, he’s the same man who said Tesla has no technological advantage & but their cars wouldn’t sell very well due to their shape.
Biggest problem I see with anything carbon fiber is what happens to it once it’s damaged beyond repair . Aluminum and steel is infinitely recyclable … carbon goes to the dumpster maybe it can be shredded up once and made into floor mats of something but then it’s dumpster material … Nah
Can see the application of carbon wheels in high demand in the near future as more EVs do adopt in-hub electric motors as a way to compensate the overall increase in rotating unsprung mass. They just have to become more affordable to have a mass market adoption. 🤔
Price is obscene today, however, will be really cool if they can achieve extremely high volume production to bring that down to reasonable prices. Thanks for sharing John!
Boy, it would be great if this technology can be applied to all cars.
The weight savings will help with fuel economy/range, but until CF wheels reach price parity with aluminum, they will only be used in premium products. So, it is cool to learn about these, but I am watching to see how cost changes.
The price is absolutely insane.
I figured but how much?
7-10k set
@@chriauc2976 I see, thanks. Raw materials input costs as the limit suggest eventually they'll be competitively priced. Don't expect that any time soon however, "Write's Law" surely applies here, a certain percentage mfg cost reduction for every doubling of production capacity.
Also very expensive single use molds. Single use dimensionally exact to the single size/style of wheel. So need a reasonably large # of units to be made per each wheel type/size to spread the cost of the high tolerance molds used in manufacture.
@@chriauc2976 Considering all the advantages, all they need is to get the price down to about a third of that and I'd go for it. And I'm not even that hard core of a car guy.
Gordon Murray’s answer when asked about Carbon wheels is that they are great until the wheels hit something. Then they disintegrate. So if you get them, don’t curb them.\
That doesn't tell the whole story. They'll shatter with a huge impact, but are 2-3 times more resilient than aluminium in a low/moderate impact and won't deform at the rim. They are pretty tough.
Yep you think you know "the whole story" and Goddon Murray doesn't?.@@goldreverre
To help put the cost into perspective on the 2024 Corvette Z06 Carbon Fiber Wheels option is $14K and with a red stripe they are $15.5K so it may be a while before they go main stream
And then people falsely claim EV are too expensive…
… and buyers opt for larger wheels even though they reduce efficiency.
@@jurgenwehner3607EVs are too expensive. That is why they are not selling in serious numbers
Note they said, they've only ever deployed 70,000 wheels on the road. These are early stages.
They are gorgeous wheels but the cost is astronomical in my opinion. 👍🇺🇸
for a bit of context, the price of a set of Carbon Revolution wheels for the Corvette Z06 is actually way DOWN compared to when the wheels first arrived on the 2016 Mustang GT350R. now in 2023 you can easily pay MORE for a set of 2 pc or 3pc wheels from a premium tuner HRE, BBS, or Rays like seen on many of the cars displayed at SEMA so gains (not just in weight savings) have indeed been made the last 7 years. not sure what the option cost was for the Carbon Revolution wheels made for the F8 Tributo or the 488 Pista...? but it's not like you're going to escape having to pay the requisite "Ferrari Tax" if you're legit shopping for one of those anyway.
I wonder how you go for rim rash repairs. I know there are specialised repairers for carbon bicycle frame but can't imagine they're as forgiving as alloy. I'd like to see wheels and tires become more sensible and less driven by fashion. The amount being spent on rim and tyre damage is insane and getting worse as the trend to 20"+ wheels explodes. Smaller diameter wheels with wider tyres that offer some curb damage protection for most vehicles would be a great trend IMO.
Yep.
We've been waiting for this trend to reverse for decades now.
With EV & PHEV, brake sizes can be reduced, so there goes that excuse for huge wheels.
Was hoping a design disruptor (like maybe an ID Buzz with retro whitewalls) could make juicy sudewalls cool again.
Hi Fangitjoe - make sure you subscribe to our UA-cam channel and Check out our rim rash video ua-cam.com/video/1_RFkZAZx8Y/v-deo.html
Stock (CREV) will be interested to watch (I would not buy until it bottoms out). Huge hype will calm down to a rational price eventually. P/E is currently over 2,000 (Tesla < 100 P/E).
You could scale up production even faster by incorporating Fiber Forge carbon stamping in place of part or all traditional layup processes.
Hey John, you know Sandy M. is involved with Aptera. They're all about efficiencies and light wt . And only 3 wheels to worry about. Perhaps Sandy can nudge Chris and Steve to take a look?
The application does make a lot of sense for EVs with in-hub electric motors but at this stage too expensive to justify the adoption unfortunately. 🤔
@@krisg.4257 Agreed. Keep in mind it will be two yrs before Aptera is in full production. Maybe by then a North or South American manufacturing plant will be producing these awesome wheels at economies of scale?
@@Randy-Jan even better evolution would be a carbon fiber centre hub wheel for airless tyres to be applied to EVs with in-hub electric motors but don't know anyone looking in to that. They would have to partner with Michelin or other tyres manufacturers developing the technology. 👍
@@krisg.4257 Great idea. I've been following the airless tyre topic for a couple of years. Not quite there yet.
My Mini Cooper electric Enkei RPF1 wheel weighs 15.2 pounds each, so with these I can bring it down to 7.5 pounds each wheel, I wonder how much these wheels would improve my range?
RPF1 are indeed the benchmark for "traditional" low weight. I have 16" setup for my BRZ for winter tires and it stunning how much fun it adds to the "off season".
Q: I wonder how much these wheels would improve my range? A: very little for the added cost you would pay (ref: Law of Diminishing Returns) like the man said you're already "living the RPF1 dream" so enjoy.
Gordon Murray is somewhat known for lightweight design and yet he specifically ditched the idea of carbon fibre wheels for his GMA T.50.
Solid disk wheels?
Solid disk wheels? Yes, please. The best Aluminum wheels out there now are fully forged, but they always give up aerodynamics to save weight. CF solid disk wheels would solve that problem. Unfortunately, I still will not be able to afford them, lol.
I'm an Aptera fan so any weight off the axels is really important.@@omelborpon3159
This whole interview they never talk about how expensive these things are and any downsides to the technology.
Aluminum can be perfectly recycled. Carbon fiber?
If you have to ask, you can't afford them.
@@jamesvandamme7786 that’s how you make money. By asking
.With new cars getting heavier and heavier, the weight savings on these wheels is like peeing in the ocean trying to raise sea level.
Rotating unsprung mass is roughly 2X as effective as the rest of vehicle in terms of acceleration energy requirements, wheels have both linear and rotational inertia, plus allows for better suspension performance. Another way to look at it is cutting given component mass by 2X is huge, apply that to entire vehicle body and structure.
Will take a long time before it's generally affordable no doubt.
Reducing unsprung rotational mass is an even better investment on EVs, which tend to have bigger wheels to support the extra mass of batteries.
Looking to having this on continent and expecting with large scale manufacturing to reduce the price to "after market" acceptable level.
elon needs to write a check …
400,000,000 wheels a year potential demand / opportunity
Would be great on a Tesla roadster TBD
Still extremely pricey and easily crack if go a bump and/or divot at faster speeds -60+ mph!😮 Not for regular streets/highways in the U.S. where road surface is poorly maintained.😂
Certainly not if your tires look like bands of electrical tape around the wheel. If you have a decent sidewall, like a 45 series, they should be fine.
Ahh. An option for the Cadillac Celestiq, as long as the customer doesn’t mind black being the dominant color of the wheels.
I'm sure you could paint them. Maybe a wrap?
Stamping faster than casting which is faster than laminating.
Does anyone know if F1 uses carbon wheels these days and in the affirmative case who makes them? 🤔
A: unfortunately per FIA/FIM safety rules afaik no carbon wheels are homologated for use anywhere in Motorsports. Forged Magnesium is the best you're gonna get.
How do I get a free set for my Tesla?? :)
Carbon Revolution has no info on wheels for Tesla. I would love lighter wheels that the Tesla Aero covers can be attached to. Removing unsprung weight is important and 24+lbs is a big deal, but if you can't be aerodynamic the value is drastically reduced in an EV.
Carbon Fiber isnt for everything, Oceangate can be an example.
touche.
I'm in favor of anything that makes it easier to change a flat!
Everyone saying it’s too expensive, I’m pretty sure they will be doing everything they can to drop the price now. They mentioned offshoring right off the bat. This is no different to Tesla starting expensive and then making more and more affordable models. Also if a company buys 100s of theses there will be a large markup. If a company buys say 1M then the markup can easily fall for an order that size. They will get cheaper.
They are currently a 14 thousand option on high end corvettes. It will be a long time until they are sold in millions and still be expensive then
…..great until you go over a (slightly) too big bump, and the wheel cracks. 🤷🏼♂️🤔
Just buy new ones!
@@brunoheggli2888 ….I would, but I’m too busy throwing $100 bills out my car window on the freeway! 🤔🤷🏼♂️
Bob Putz is a dinosaur & way out of touch with today’s technology. Remember, he’s the same man who said Tesla has no technological advantage & but their cars wouldn’t sell very well due to their shape.
Bob Lutz is still right,Tesla is just a small fish and the growhrate is slowing fast!
Take away the subsidies and laws and Tesla doesn’t exist.
Biggest problem I see with anything carbon fiber is what happens to it once it’s damaged beyond repair . Aluminum and steel is infinitely recyclable … carbon goes to the dumpster maybe it can be shredded up once and made into floor mats of something but then it’s dumpster material … Nah
They will make my Toyota Yaris much lighter!
LOL
At a big cost
Can see the application of carbon wheels in high demand in the near future as more EVs do adopt in-hub electric motors as a way to compensate the overall increase in rotating unsprung mass. They just have to become more affordable to have a mass market adoption. 🤔
In-hub motors are DOA, dumb place for a motor.
Lutz is a Dinosaure 😅
So what?
Very expensive!