Lead vs Copper Ammo: It's time for a change.
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- Опубліковано 26 вер 2024
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More people would Probly be open to solid copper if California hadn’t banned lead bullets
Most Americans, with any level of common sense really aren’t super tolerant to the government telling them what to do.
@@kevinmartin2096i dunno if you’ve been paying attention but it appears as if the number of those people is dwindling. Which of course is not good. Which of course is why we must stop underestimating the enemy. And fight them as hard and harder than they are fighting us. Peacefully. Before it devolves and we have actually re-assert the Bill of Rights, forcefully. Or the Declaration of Independence, forcefully.
Unless if they want the Government to coddle them from birth to the grave.......
@@nozrep It would seem the propensity of people would rather be told what to do than be free. They feel safer or something. I guarantee there are many that actually miss the covid debacle.
Literally the mindset of a child
We’ve used Barnes for years on several mule dear and 8+ elk in 270 , 30-06, and 7 mag all within 400 yds. Very pleased with performance.
I’ve had the same luck with the Barnes. Great bullets!
same fast one shot kills all pass threw with alot of damage on the internals on the elk I shot with 7remmag and 270wsm both around 350-400
I got some browning BXS for $14 a box for my 7mm mag. I hope it is good….
High BC bonded bullets really are a sweet spot. AccuBond LR, Norma Bondstrikes, etc. if you’re after higher BC and penetration, that’s a great choice.
What does BC stand for?
@@christopherscott932 ballistic coefficient
@@BadoreksDailys Thank you
Paul just got his 1 million subscriber plaque.
??
Paul Harrell
I have hunted Moose and Caribu in NWT with nosler partición in ranges from 100 to 300yrds with my270BDL and never an issue while I knew lots of hunters that used 30 30 partición as well with great results, now days I hunt deer and moose in ontario and when using my 300WM , moose only, Federal nosler partición, 180 grain and again great results, problem now a days is we have such great selección of ammo that makes it complicated to choose sometimes, keep up the great videos Jim
My experience with copper on deer is that the bullet pencils through the chest with very little blood trail, unless you hit solid bone to get the copper bullet to expand more. If you shoot a lead core bullet with a thick copper jacket/base, it should not fragment too much while expanding (i.e. no cheap cup and core bullets).
Yeah really wanted to like them but time after time I had zero blood trails and insanely long track jobs because the bullets wouldnt expand. Caused me to lose a nice bear and almost a nice 8pt. Im not shooting slow cartridges either. I tried them in a 257wby, 340 wby, and 7x61. Hand loads and factory ammo all with poor results on great shots.
Sounds like the same experience I've had, when I tried the all copper bullets multiple times in my 270 Win. I finally gave up on them. @@Nick-sx6jm
Yes, this. My family hunts blacktail deer and we all switched from .243 to .308. Since the lead ban. Back to one shot kills.
just make spinal shots if you're worried about tracking the animal.
What caliber are you shooting? My 260 rem blows out a quarter sized exit on blacktail and whitetail deer with 120gr barnes ttsx on double lung shots. My dataset is somewhat limited, but it's 7 or 8 blacktails and 6 caribou with that load. They usually don't make it more than 20-30 yards. The TSX is less aggressive, but they still don't get far. If your experience was with the original TSX, they have come a very long way.
What have we turned into where we feel it’s ~painful~ that we couldn’t take a 700 yard shot because we couldn’t get closer.
I have been loading, Badland Precision 150-grain Bulldozer 2 copper mono's in my 7-SAUM. These bullets have extremely high BC's and shoot very tight groups.
I had three one shot kills on whitetails at 268, 411, 500-yards. With copper bullets you need to know where your velocity drops below 1,600 - 1,800 fps to find your ideal maximum range.
Very good video.
Interesting. Sounds about right.
Australia.
CU bullets need VELOCITY to perform correctly. Under 2K FPS YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN.
Yup and with powder coated hand cast Pb ammo over 2k fps you are on your own.
Incorrect. Not all of it is the same. Barnes LRX needs 1600fps for successful expansion.
Yep
@@Fivegunnerthe expansion is minimal to almost 0% at that velocity
@@allthingsconsidered3211 no it is not. LRX is designed to expand at lower velocities. You can use whatever you want but you can't change facts. 1.7 diameters expansion at 1600. 2x expansion at 1800+ fps.
I believe there are far better choices for elk than 6.5 Creedmore. I’ve been using Hammer bullets for 3 years now and have not had a deer take a step after the shot. Extremely accurate too.
I agree. I have a 6.5 CM and I have other rifles with better calibers for Elk.
Agreed but it’s also not unusable
Not one single step?
@@southeastwhitetails nope!
There is some history here that I think a lot of people don't know regarding Barnes. Years ago they pushed politically for bans on lead bullets. I will never use their bullets for t hat reason alone. When they first came out, they were not accurate at all. I read that they have improved things a bit, but most rifles shoot lead better. They say that they lose less weight when hitting game. So what! That's how lead bullets work. It's about hydrostatic shock as the bullet opens up at high velocity. The mushroom itself doesn't create the wound channel. It's the opening of the mushroom and it speed that creates the shockwave that does the damage as the bullet passes through an animal. Yes, this can be done with all copper as well, but there are other issues. All copper will be a longer bullet for a given weight, thus for stability, a faster twist barrel will be better.
If you want penetration only with lead, look at a full copper jacket. It won't kill as fast for sure, but will penetrate better than any all copper bullets of the same weight.
Lastly, look at the Nosler Partition bullet. Most times on big game like elk, the front of the bullet will come apart and create a ton of shock and the rear half will pass all the way through the animal. That bullet is what put John Nosler on the map. I truly believe it's still one of the best hunting bullets ever designed. As for the "safety" of using all copper bullets, really.. I've never heard of a hunter that had lead issues from eating game shot with lead bullets. Lung shots are best anyway. As you might surmise, I'm an older hunter and have been killing game for over 45 years..
Man you guys need to study up, copper being lighter needs to be longer per weight to it has a higher BC but a lower sectional density as copper isn’t as dense as lead. Copper bullets work great and allow you to aim more forward and drill through the shoulder as it’s a lot tougher material then lead. But at longer ranges lead tends to be better because lead takes less energy to expand and once you’ve ran out of velocity copper tends not to expand as much. Copper for dangerous game/tough animals or shoulder drilling up close and use lead for long range or more traditional lung shots. If you live in Cali sucks for you just don’t move up here to AK and vote liberal.
These dorks will obsess about a sub-1% difference in cartridge performance but then be like "hey y'all, copper is totes great!" It's pathetic.
@@Guysm1l3y Yea and they are stuck on the 6.5 bandwagon, what will it be next new kid on the block following mfr. promotions? When they are all dead the 100 yr. old 30.06 will still beat them with the latest ammo. JMO
BC is a directly calculated from SD. So if SD is lower, so is BC. Smart people know facts. And then there's the rest of you.
@@jasonshults368you must not have done physics, ballistic coefficient is simply how sleek or low drag an object is. Sectional density is a cross section of the actual density of the object. Two different things but they have something to do with each other. Lead is more dense the copper so if a lead bullet and copper bullet have the same BC the lead one will have a higher SD as SD is a measurement of the density to cross sectional size. But I love how confidently wrong you are. 👍🏼
Trophy bonded tip! Best of both worlds. Terminal ascent. Same bullet basically. Lead front, copper back end for penetration. Way underrated bullet
I second this. I use the 200gr in a 300wm shoots .5moa at 500 yards and devastates deer and elk
I am still in research phase before I actually start hunting and I think you guys just decided the cartridges I'm buying, thanks!
@@EnderPearlRs I’ve been hunting for 31 years. It’s the best bullet I’ve ever used. Expansion and deep penetration. You can find the trophy bonded tips on midway USA and other sites. I like the grain weight options you get over the terminal ascents. Pick a caliber then buy a box of different weights to see what your rifle likes. My 308 loves 165g. Doesn’t like the 180s
@mikemellon80 I did a lot of hunting when I was a kid. My first stepfather owned a hunting plantation but it's been around 14years or so since I've shot anything other than paper. And even that has been far too infrequent but is changing!
Think my first rifle will be either 30-06 or .308
@backfire look at the California condor reports on lead. After CA banned lead ammo, it was revealed that bird lead poisoning is most frequently from paint.
People love to blame the guys with the guns.
Yep- LEAD BANS ARE ANTI- GUN BULLSH*T
Animals aren't harmed by eating elemental lead. I'm tired of this nonsense.
Careful what you wish for, the deer boys here in the U.K. started using non-Lead, next thing the Government are trying to ban all Lead ammo, it’s seen as many as a back door to making guns obsolete here. If any of you have tried non-Lead .22LR ammo you’ll no what I mean, it’s crap.
There isn't a single good reason to scrub your barrel down to work up a load that might shoot as well as the tried and true lead core bullet. Anyone who says they are just as good has a stake in the game for selling copper bullets. Copper needs a clean barrel it says so on every box of bullets... It's lower BC, it doesn't expand as much or as fast, they are longer for weight making them over oacl for some bullet/ actions. Trying to "save the world" one bullet at a time is totally BS. Yes the California condors proved it's a thing yet having hunters bury the guts was never an option. It's a gun control issue nothing else. Good enough is not just as good
I use Hammer bullets in my reloads. Performance on game has been wonderful. Using copper bullets at a lighter weight than lead, and I have found them to be less destructive as far as bloodshot/unusable meat. I loved my Nosler Accubonds, but I’ll stay with the Hammer bullets from here on out. I use them in my 264 WM, 280 AI and 300 WM. As far as taking more time in developing a reload, I disagree on it taking more time, being more difficult, at least that’s been my experience with each of the above rifles. I have also found that copper likes a little bit of a jump. I’m sure we all have our own opinions of it, but I eat what I hunt, and so far copper has worked exceptionally well for me.
You guys need to catch up to the times. Barnes aren't the only copper bullets made. Go check out bullet makers like the Mcguire, Apex bullets,hammer bullets.
@@criticalbo 🤣🤣🤣 yeah and they suck compared to either Barns or Hornady…crappy BC’s and hardly ANY reliable performance!! Secondly the REAL monolithic are made by Cutting Edge and Werner tool!! They are for ELR match rifles…
👍
@@criticalbo Or just use a Sako Hammerhead which eats each of the aboves lunch. Any day of the week and twice on sunday.
@@8asw8 yeah ive been looking into those. I dont think I can get them in components yet, only loaded ammunition. Ive heard great things about them.
All my rifles shoot lead better than copper.
Thanks for keeping the 'long range' real and putting ethics first.
I prefer the option of both but on my terms not the states,
perhaps the state should force you since you wont make the right decision on your own then?
The right decision? People are sure broken.
I've been using the Hammer bullets and love them my go-to bullet for hunting now.
For whitetails I am Loving the Hammer Bullets in 6.5mm. An 85gr Hammer Hunter (at 3,450 fps) designed to shed 40-50% when expanding dumps a Huge amount of energy into the vital region, while the remaining 50 to 60% completes pass-through. These are also designed to expand at lower velocity around 1100 to 1200 FPS if I remember correctly.
#HammerBullets #Hammer
Hammer bullets are a unicorn. Truly the best of all worlds. Makes you re-evaluate how terminal ballistics can work.
Both have a place in my hunting. I just prefer not to use copper in my slower rifles or if the shots may be longer.
Knowing what copper does at different velocities is important. Not as critical with bonded.
~
*Copper Bullets Silver Lining*
"Honest honey, CA now requires us to hunt with copper bullets to save the condors. I _had_ to buy this new 7mm PRC rifle to get the range my 6.5 Creedmoor had with lead bullets."
Honestly, I like the copper bullets for shorter ranges, and I like a larger caliber copper bullets for longer ranges. I just don't like CA making it a law that I can only use them and have to get a background check every time I buy them at a state licensed FFL.
Ill stick with my lead bullets. My rifles that ive tried factory copper loads in dont like copper.
Not sure if yall mentioned it, but because you get so much better penetration with copper, you can shoot a lighter bullet and get higher velocities than with lead.
I agree with you, in particular i use the Barnes 130gr TTSX in 308 Win. With the increase in MV it makes up for the low BC of .350. I also am an East Coast hunter and my shots are seldom very far. For comparison though in 308 Win with a 200yd zero the 130gr TTSX (BC.350) drops appx 19" at 400yds and the 168gr TTSX (BC .470) drops appx 24". Even at 500 yds the 130gr load drops appx 9" less than the higher BC bullet. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to take the type of hunting as well as the realistic distances you may encounter before choosing any type of bullet. BC is by no means the leading factor in choosing a bullet but rather one data point amongst many. One area where I think copper bullets lag in lethality compared to lead is at distance. I wouldn't want to shoot past appx 325yds and ideally 200yds or less with my 130gr TTSX in 308 as copper bullets need velocity to perform. If I was using copper and hunting out West I'd look real hard at a 300 Win Mag using the same 130gr TTSX.
Yes, but also a lower BC. All tradeoffs and compromises.
I will always shoot lead unless it’s in a state that’s against the law to do so. Lead bullets are way more accurate than any all copper bullet in existence. How many competition shooters use all copper bullets?
The super ELR guys use monometal projectiles turned on machines.
Remington 6.5 prc long range copper ammunition is 87 dollars a box
Some interesting points, just keep monitoring how your animals are stood, where your bullet strikes and more importantly where it exists
What out barrel life and does shooting copper ammo shorten barrel life with factory ammo loads?
A little correction on the BC. Copper of a similar shape and the same weight will have a higher BC. Simply because copper is lighter it will be longer and have a higher BC on well designed copper bullets. Compare similar weights, not lighter vs heavier.
Correct, and many calibers have a couple of different grain weights available.
You have it the opposite way. Copper bullets will always have a lower bc.
Density increases bc
@@beavismagnum A 30 cal. 168 grain Barnes ttsx has a bc of .253. A hornady hpbt match 168 grain has a bc of .253 🤷♂️ I just looked them up on Midsouth Shooters Supply .
@@waynemensen4252 that’s the sectional density, which has to be the same because they’re the same mass and diameter. The .308 168 ttsx has a bc of .470 compared to .523 of the eldm. The G7 difference is probably even larger
@@beavismagnum your correct. A bc of .470 is still pretty darn good.
I took a whitetail deer at just 30 yards with a 7-08 BLR running Nosler gamekings 140g and it made a small entry and small exit hole, blew the lead tip all to bits and made a massive internal damage to the thorax taking both lungs into mush, broke the back shoulder bone and I ended up with lead fragments all through the back shoulder. I was not impressed with the blood loss as all the blood pooled up inside the thorax. I'm accustomed to the 30-30 round nose that just plows big holes and makes all the damage while retaining wight after a full exit. This is why i switched my 7-08 to a Hornady CX alloy bullet for 2024.
ditch lead ammo? well, i'd suggest practicing with hardened steel. you know, just in case.
Same with primers. Federal makes a great hunting ammo in multiple calibers with solid copper AND lead free primer.
I used um for about 5 years and switched back to lead. They definitely work they just don’t seem to have the same energy dump on game. Punch 2 nice holes but I get more down instantly with lead.
Yeah ..... finally a great video on common sense I gave up lead over 25 years ago and never looked back.. no more lead in my meat 95% always two holes and more drop dead in their tracks kills than any lead bullet. a 127 grain copper bullet is equal to a 140 grain lead bullet and the difference in drop should already be taken care of in your drop chart so that does not matter. most people can not shoot 700 yards even at a steel target much less a live animal keep it to 400 or 450 is much more ethical .
I switched to Barnes 20 years ago. I was sick of exploding bullets. I have never wanted to go back to lead.
Also, clean your barrel before going to copper bullets. It is very common to have accuracy problems with all copper if your barrel has fowling from conventional bullets.
I would not give the antigunners another avenue to pursue to strip away our 2nd amendment rights. I think the science is dubious at best and who sponsored this data? I have doubts that lead bullets are making significant impact nationally. Mayyybbbeee in smaller ecosystems in like Californiastahn idk
Mine and my daughter's last 10 deer have been with 80 grain copper bullets from my 243. NONE have made it past 50 yds! Most drop in their tracks! Hello from Mississippi!
windmills probably kill more birds or high frequency transmission. Messing with migratory birds or if the frequency is fast enough. It can literally cook the bird, microwave radio transmission. But reducing availability of ammo and increasing prices. Does not make sense. Specifically having bonded bullets for large game. This argument is fascinating for a sportsman to argue. “ I want less availability and higher prices”.
Jim good video.
I have not tried copper yet because I have great results with the Swift Aframe
In 7mag 160gr.
But I’m sure the copper at high velocity will do fine
Stick with the A-Frame bullets and the heck with copper!
Came here to mention the A-Frame as well. Best of both worlds: "Partitioned" & BONDED Lead core bullet. Like an absolute plow through game. 286gr in my 9.3x62 Ruger No.1 just anchors moose like they've been poleaxed.
A bird with lead poisoning is called a successful dove hunt😂
Absolutely not because not liking the accuracy of most copper type ammo versus traditional ammo.
Hell no…. Now I may use it but don’t tell me what I can and can’t use to kill my animals….. or other things
I would also consider that there is conventional lead and bonded lead which does make a difference. For me, the cooper bullets I’ve shot which are designed to peddle off x amount of copper tend to do a lot more damage to the meat over the lead core bullets. This is just my personal experience with these bullets at closer ranges 150 yards and closer.
I have a 270 win, I started hunting 7 years ago in Utah, and I've been hunting with copper bullets most of that time. This year I reloaded with badlands bulldozer 2 bullet, 128 gr with a bc .531 and an initial mv of 3200 fps its holding 2000 fps out to 920 yards, which may vary depending on temp, elevation, etc. It maintains 1500 ftlbs energy out to 670 yards. The front end is designed to expand, then fracture the petals from the base, creating greater wounding potential. I shot a Cow at about 250 yards, and the results were amazing. The cow went down immediately, and I got over 4 ft of penetration, including shattering the pelvis on the way out. I had exit wounds from petals on both sides of the chest cavity being as it was a frontal shot that means those petals traveled 10 to 15 inches through lungs, rib,meat and hide. It was quite amazing.
Copper bullets for hunting are the way to go…they hit way harder then lead 👍🏼
Yawn. Got many cow elk at closer and longer ranges with a 270 and 130-150gr bullets of various makes. All performances were about what I expected and exactly what I required. If you really think your expensive boutique bullets make much difference, you haven't hunted much.
In terms of lead poisoning, it's mostly about varmints that hunters leave in the field (or game animals that are mortally wounded and are lost). For game that's actually recovered, there's virtually no chance that carrion feeders will get lead poisoning from the gut pile that's left behind.
As for questioning the source, that's perfectly valid. After all the hullabaloo about lead ammo nearly making the California Condor extinct, it turns out that it was actually California's massive, open-air landfills that were responsible for most California Condor deaths. Don't eat trash, kids.
My daughter is in the veterinary industry in Western Canada, the amount of Bald Eagles that she deals with over the hunting season suffering from lead poisoning is off the charts. I've switched to copper and I'm trying to educate as many hunters as I can .
There are so many people in the hunting world that just deny that what you say is true. It’s sad. They’d rather deny than have a good discussion.
Sounds like Ya'll , might , end up having to have volunteers with metal detectors to clean up the land , aside from banning lead .
Copper vs lead is a silly way to frame the question. Bullet selection is application specific requiring understanding of species, range, cartridge, and factory vs hand load.
For moose/elk with a 300WSM I use 175gr LRX
For targets/training and deer hunting with a 7mm-08 we use 150gr ELDX
For long range targets with a 308WIN I use 168gr ELDM and 178gr ELDX
For flat shooting deer hunting in open terrain and 270WIN I use 129gr LRX and might try 150gr Accubond LR next in the 270 for use on Deer/Moose/Elk.
For my youngest son and his 7mm-08 I have loaded 145gr LRX for Moose/Elk but would also be interested in trying 160gr accubonds or 168gr ABLR.
The theme here is lead expansion bullets for targets and deer and solid copper or bonded lead penetration bullets for moose and elk.
You really do need good penetration on something like a 1200lb bull Moose. The hide on moose is like armour plating and the bones are ginormous... and you keep shooting until they go down, which is usually an option because they typically don't tear off running at full bore like deer and elk after taking the first hit. There might be some meat loss plugging the beast with multiples but the yield is so high I recon its cheap insurance... it takes 5years to draw for moose so it is indeed a high value high yield tag that you do not want to mess up on.
Cheers!
ABSOLUTELY F'N NO !!!!!!!!!!!
0 tolerance for giving away ANY AMOUNT of ANY RIGHT !!!
How about 0 tolerance for people poisoning our air, food and water supply? I actually understand where you are coming from in terms of rights, but who gets to decide when actions influence everyone, and for generations? Copper seems a very reasonable solution/compromise although I understand price.
@@orinriver How about we dont concede to bogus pseudoscience made by anti hunters with an agenda, where the studies are either disproven or have serious flaws?
@@orinriver I call B.S. Can't believe what the govt says in regards to that stuff.
No one is poisoning anything or anyone by shooting lead.
My family all shoot Barnes changed when my son shot his first wt buck with a rem core lock 7 mag he made a good shot but bullet exploded on contact we got it 500 yards later shrapnel everywhere changed. To tsx when they first came out 8 moose and a 10 bull elk and a bunch of deer later we shot ttsx 150 gr 4’ of penetration only found 4 bullets on frontal shots stay under 400 yds and they are deadly happy hunting from northern alberta
I tried some Barnes LRX in some recent load work-ups. Starting with a clean bore, several trips back and forth to the range, and 40 rounds later, the rifle would no longer group, much less hit an 8" plate at 100 yards. I've never experienced copper fouling like that in my life. 12 hours of scrubbing with CU+ copper remover. (8 hours of frustration, I had to resume for another 4 hours the next morning.) I will NEVER use copper bullets again! Jacketed lead bullets have never done that in any of my rifles. P.S. I have several boxes of Barnes .338 cal 250gr. LRX and TSX bullets for sale real cheap. And some .308 cal 190gr LRX too.
I like copper bullets have killed deer with tsx ttsx copper impact no complaints from me but i will not give up lead bullets imo they terminally do better Terminal Ascent and trophy bonded tip A+ accubonds and bond strikes A ttsx are at best a B+ rating haven't killed anything with Lrx and cx yet but have plans to
lead ain’t goin nowhere. I predict. Times are gettin tough. Inflation ongoes ongoingly. People need the cheapest bullets they can find. Lead bullets.
Very pleased with the Hornady Cx 120gr chambering in the 6.5cm
We painted our houses with lead based paint, drank water from a garden hose, drove cars that burned leaded gasoline that had no airbags with 2 point seatbelts, do you guys really think men are worried about a lead based bullet that killed their deer or elk?
And don’t leave out the cars that didn’t have seatbelts, and motorcycles without a helmet
We rode dirt bikes without helmets too!@@theastro-philosophersappre2786
And a lot of people in that generation got cancer.
@@GRIGGINS1 More people have gotten cancer from all the processed foods in the 2000s. Even more cancer today from even harsher processed foods in 2024.
They got cancer becausr they lived so long. You imagine that we could just live forever if we weren't exposed to lead? Joke's on you. Lead is all over the surface of the earth.
Most people are prepping. Copper doesn't have penetrarion against metal targets. I read somewhere government hunting areas banned lead ammunition because of lead poisoning. I've never heard of lead poisoning from old battlefields.
Ditch copper! I refuse to use copper ammunition. Higher pressure and less performance on the animal.
I am a long time fan of the nosler accubond. I absolutely love the performance of this bullet in every caliber I shoot. That said, it is difficult to find where I am and I have needed to find a substitute. I have started loading with some of the Barnes bullets and even the Hornady CX and I think my conversion is complete. I truly wish I could find the Nosler but since it isn't to be copper is going to fill the void.
I'm an Accubond fan, too. I've had good luck finding factory seconds, and stock up when I can.
Copper is great if you’re in desired velocity so many UA-cam videos showing bullets not open under 2000fps
Up here in Alaska the Barnes TTSX/LRX are very popular. Also the Federal Terminal Accent. You can’t go wrong with either. Don’t cheap out on hunting ammo, the game deserves the best.
If I'm in this heavy timber I don't want copper bullets. I want big wound channel so it's not going to be able to go as far.
Lead ammo cost is significantly less than copper...
The average difference (per all .270 win ammo at sportsman’s warehouse) is 4.5 dollars per box or about .20 cents per bullet
@@southernoregonwaterfowl4092 For my calibers it is double and I dont shoot cheap lead ammo. So double for laughably worse ammo, not gonna happen
according to the folks at hammer bullets: they can get a better (more effective) permanent wound channel than with lead bullets. obviously, they are incentivized to say their ammo is better, but testing seems to back that up.
Why did you go with 300wm over the 7mmPRC??
I realize you didn't ask me but your question screams of "marketing and internet hype". I'm not trying to be an A hole but does that mean if you varmint hunt with a 22-250 you ask why not the 22 Creedmoor? You hunt with what you want to at the moment. The platform could make all the difference, maybe the WinMag is a lighter more accurate rifle or the scope on one may be more appropriate to the area you're hunting. Both cartridges mentioned are so close to each other that other factors could definitely impact what one decides to use. Hopefully that makes sense.
It was just a simple question! @@AlienMetals
@@tadfrehner2832 I hear you but really it was a pretty simple answer. Even if you didn't ask for it LOL. Have a good one
I've been using Barnes bullets for the past 35 years exclusively. I have found the copper monolithic bullets are far superior to cup and core lead bullets. I've hunted mule deer, antelope and elk since I was old enough to hunt legally. The only exception for me to use copper is in my cowboy action guns. I live and hunt in Idaho, where you can use either. Everyone can make their own choice. I'll stick with copper.
I like the copper at short ranges for minimal lead exposure (and it's OFTEN cheaper to boot). Lead for accuracy/longer shots and a Partition penetrates just fine and to lower velocities than solids consistently. I don't hunt anything large enough to matter though.
The resistance I'd expect are from those who like the frag grenade bullets for deer hunting. I'm not a fan of the Hornady line at all for this reason and that behavior (save for a couple hundred Hornady solids I picked up to try if I ever get around to it). Maybe the Cutting Edge and similar would coax them over.
Interesting. I have made the decision to switch to copper for Whitetail from now on. My 8 year old son shot 3 deer plus my 2 plus about 12 hogs this past year. Have used Hornady for years and years and have been absolutely lethal. No issues ever. Buttttt I also got tired of cutting out a few lbs of meat on any shots that weren’t exclusively vitals. Even slightly hitting front shoulder results is crazy blood shot from 40-425 yards on the game. Hornady cx has shot amazing so far over Barnes but going to keep testing for 6.5prc and 7mag.
The Barnes and Hammer copper bullets shoot very well.
Hell yeah, let's switch to depleted uranium rounds!
A10 warthog GO!
Talk about high BC!
Jim,
Pleased with the subject, I reload only copper for hunting by choice since 10 years+ for all familial rifle. I agree with most of your comments. Concerning the minimum speed for bullet opening from manufacturer, Most of the Barnes LRX open at 1400fps -1500fps, The Barnes TTSX, some open as low 1500fps and most at 2000fps. You have to call customer services at Barnes to know. I now use more and more Cutting Edge bullet in the Lazer and Maximus line. They have the highest BC you will find in monolithic. The best fabrication consistency of the industry. Additionally, the head fragment in smaller piece duplicating the lead big drop of energy when they fragment. They also open at a minimum speed of 1300fps with the tipped Lazer and 1400fps with the Maximus. Unfortunately, I'm Hunting in north east of Canada in the dense woods I never had the dream long shot. The max shot made with them is 247 yards. So, I can't say how they perform at longer. They are dropping Moose and bear faster than Barnes, on deer equivalent of Barnes. I noticed the wound cavity is very different. Barnes often liquify the lung, these are not.
thanks for recognizing that modern guided elk hunts have turned into rich people only activities.
Did you delete your last video or did UA-cam? The cop vs acorn one. And could you explain the situation?
How much is copper ammo compared to lead ? As a retired guy I'm just loving those bismuth shotgun shells at $60 a box. 😢😢
🤮 that's robbery.
Sample size of 1, so take it for what it’s worth… 16 years ago I slammed a white tail, with a 30-06, that was quartering away, in a hind rib, and the bullet delaminated like it was made of popsicle sticks and paper mache instead of copper and lead. I was a young man, I needed the meat, and the bullet was a CoreLokt. I still have the box and 12 of the rounds. I’ve never had that problem with copper. Shout out to my dad who finished off the buck in late season.
Lot of guys swear by the Core-Lokt bullet, but my Dad never cared for them, citing similar instances as you describe. None of my rifles have ever, or will fire, a Remington Core Lokt.
To their credit, they did shoot 5 shot groups under 2 MOA out of my Vanguard, and in the early 2000’s, that was pretty good.
Had a really strange thing happen with a core lokt once. Shot a doe with a 100gr out of my 243 at maybe 75 yards and a while later saw it at 300 walking away with guts hanging out and shot it in the back of the neck and dropped it. When gutting/skinning I found the first bullet had only broke the skin on the same side I shot it and a small fragment broke off, deflected off bone, and zipped through the guts. Still have no idea how thats possible.
Just looking at the graph it appears that there is fairly consistent 300 ft/lb of energy loss with the copper at pretty much any range. That is very significent. Also copper projectiles are longer to get the weight in them and this can be a real pain as the bullet is down in the powder space when reloading to get your oal.
Been using sako powerhead blade since it came out. works very well. Also barnes ttsx. both used to shoot moose and deers. the lapua naturalis is also very good bullet.
Lead core jacketed bullets have had maybe 70 years to develop and copper maybe 25. I think we will continue to see better designs and material development. When the 250-3000 came out lead core bullets were not that great and i would argue the origional copper bullets were not that great but look where we are now. Things are getting better very quickly these days. I personally prefer not to eat lead and have found the barnes bullets to be match grade just with a lower bc and i always keep my impact velocity above 2000fps.
Thank you for doing these videos
You're talking about people who shoot 20 rounds for practice and one or two during hunting season. You're NOT considering those who shoot many many more at the range. If the range is managed properly lead is not a problem.
Lead on and in the ground was never a problem. Where do people imagine we get lead from???
My last car was less than 3500$ and I drove it 200000 miles before any repairs. You people have too much money to be normal.
Right on big Jim! I too am pulling toward copper. I hope I can hire your bro there. That’d be cool to get set up with that out fit. I need all the help I can get -Thanks
Just came back from a hunt in Africa. I took Kudud, Sable, Eland, wildebeast, Nyala, and 7 more all with -06 175grn Barnes LRX. All fell with 1 shot several shots out passed 500yds. I was able to recover 4 of the bullets and had perfect expansion at that range. None of the animals went more then 20yds, some dropped in their tracks. I'm sold on solid copper and Barnes.
I like the "Casual Chat" after the hunt. 👍
Granted, 80+ degree weather would be a different case with the game waiting for the end of the interview before processing. 😅
The only reason lead has the shit name is from South dakota. They proved the all the shotshells over years compromised fields of geese.
Proved? BS.
I'm not ditching lead , im not against copper i have some .but i prefer lead
This was my response to The Texas Predator Hunting Podcast..."I think Wade missed the point of Backfire's video and I believe you(Wade) are both kinda saying the same thing. Hear me out...
He is saying that there are lots of factors why most "guns" can't shoot 1 moa. If you listen closely he is saying most people THINK the gun will shoot 1 moa AND ignore all the steps to achieve that 1 moa.
He does suggest that most guns are CAPABLE of getting 1 moa, BUT you need the right ammo, a good scope, the right wind, the correct shooting form and discipline, etc."
The answer to the question that is the title of this video.........is a resounding NO!!!
I shot a deer with a 300blk 110 grain maker rex all copper bullet this year. 201 yards out of a 10.5 barrel and she went streight down. Recovered the bullet and it measured almost 3/4 of an inch opened up. The bullet went threw hit a rib destroyed the heart turned and found it near the rear in the back muscle. Crazy how far that bullet turned and traveled.
I agree that .30 caliber bullets should expand to be effective but I would argue that .30 caliber is medium not large
Randy Shelby would be your best reference on this topic. The Real Gunsmith.
I’ve tried copper, not a fan at all,
Nosler partition accubond and Swift a frame bullets was made for big elk and moose
Also in the same breath, they talk about ethical hunting. Then talk about killing elk with a 6.5creedmoore. Then wax on about how a copper bullet went 4ft into a deer. If someone has a novel idea of energy transfer. You know penetration should be finite. Then an energy transfer should occur, “permanent would cavity”. Not to dig on the host to much. But I think, hey look at my new shinny toy. Is a more suitable talking point.
Idk if you say your 300 win mag is done at 450 I can't see that Creedmoor shooting to 500 perfectly fine I could be wrong but sounds like that is what you said
Good, Thx
The cost of solids doesn't make me want to use them. If it comes at a reasonable price in relation to lead core I don't have any problem using it. I do not like the drag in the barrel it has because of its extra length and the need to make so many groves around it to reduce that drag. I also do not like the extra shock waves caused by each one of those groves that cause drag, which solid bullet guys don't like to talk about.
It was different in the older blackpower era. Those bullets did not fragment. The bullets where not moving fast enough. Modern rifle bullets made with lead cause enormous environmental damage to people and wildlife alike.
I used barnes 70 gr tsx 556 on two does last year. Its all about shot placement
I switched to copper. But only as a reloader. So I can get as much as I possibly can out of it. Definitely no your limitations when using copper.