Holy this hit me hard. I became a father (of twins) unexpectedly two weeks before I turned 19. Fast forward 14 years, 3 more kids (with the same woman), a university degree, and a blooming professional career, and I can’t function without my family. Went away for a work conference the other week and I can’t sleep, can’t function, without my family. And it’s my teenage twins that give me the most excitement about being a Dad. Love the messages in this.
One of the best Prof G podcasts Ive heard. Im a father of two twenage boys and happily married. I'm blessed and I appreciate that every day. Such a powerful discussion. Thank you.
Incredible discussion, here in Australia Men suffer the same treatment from Divorce and Courts. We are lucky to survive, we work hard to see our children and provide for them. Being a father is good for kids and Dads.
Men don’t suffer from divorce and courts, men are the reason why their wives leave and men are not good care givers, that why the mother stays with young children while the father provides but today men are so mediocre that they can’t handle being a husband and a provider
I remember growing up in the 1960s, during which I had to wear dresses to school and I was told over and over again that women grow up, get married, and have kids. I looked at my mother, who couldn't even get a credit card without my father signing for her, and swore that would never be me. I studied my butt off. I started working and earning money in high school, and I started college when I was in high school. I was the first person in my family to graduate from college and I did graduate studies after. I learned how to rebuild a small block engine, I learned how to weld. And even though I was told that it wasn't feminine and as I aged, that men wouldn't want me, I forged ahead. A lot of women did. And for the most part, we found partners, had satisfying careers, and have enjoyed our lives with - or without - children. Women got there in large part because their identities weren't wrapped up in gender-based roles, and that's part of why we've been successful in working outside of the home. It's also why a lot of women have trouble understanding why men are struggling to determine what it means to be masculine; it's the insistence on gender-based roles (if I can't be a man in the "traditional" sense, who am I?) that honestly does men little credit. I want to see young men be successful, but I'm genuinely stumped as to why they aren't rolling up their sleeves. I get that it's not necessarily fun, but studying and working meant that I had more freedom, and with freedom came options. Everyone, men and women, should have that.
You've become the man you always wanted to marry. For over 6 decades feminists and their female enablers have drilled into the up and coming generations of men that they are useless, unworthy of respect and unwanted. Now today's women want traditional men while refusing to be traditional women. The result : increasing numbers of men have given up abandoning dating, marriage and society. Declaring they will no longer share their resources with women nor be their beasts of burden only to be discarded in a divorce.
But do you expect men to abandon all gender roles in a serious relationship with a woman? I ask because I have yet to meet a woman that didn’t want me to act in traditionally masculine ways. She wanted me initiate and approach, plan dates, escalate flirting and beyond .. I’m fine with doing away with certain gender roles but not all. It will be interesting to see if more successful women date men that they will have to provide for Or where she makes 75% of the household income .
Scott, please expand on your comments about joining Greek life. There aren't many panaceas in life, but Greek life gets really close as it relates to the struggles of young adults, while also realizing (albeit imperfectly) the ideals from which higher education has strayed. Jonathan Haight has previously used a painting of Plato and his students among the olive trees in central Athens. That image represents not only the birth of the higher education ethos, but also represents the DNA of Greek life.
The USA is one of only two countries in the world that permits the advertising of pharmaceutical drugs, which still baffles me. It raises the question: what's the role of doctors in this system? When you allow profit-driven motives to influence healthcare, you're bound to face serious issues. The entire structure becomes driven by greed at every level.
Are you aware of the fact that both cocaine and miniature bottles of liquor are present in many if not most major hospitals? Cocaine is being used as an anesthetic for nasal surgery and little bottles of liquor are for people who are terminal and going to pass away soon and who request a drink for the road. Do you think that your knowledge of this information and knowing about their existence and availability in incredibly specific circumstances is going to cause you to request them? If you do request them, do you think they will give them to you? That's why. Being given information doesn't give you access if the doctor doesn't prescribe it to you or agree that it's medically relevant or appropriate for your specific needs. Edit: I want to add that this isn't hearsay or internet rumor. I have physically been in possession of both of these when required while I was inside the hospital. This is standard in every hospital I have been in nationwide. They are both available for specific reasons and purposes. That doesn't mean you will have access or ability to get these.
Really good, enjoyable conversation. I haven't got any boys, but I get the sense that we have to pay particular attention to our boys in our families and communities.
How much that is needed is valuing what Fathers (and father figures) provide now - rather than dismissing their involvement as irrelevant. But yes, coming up with new labels that reframe existing contributions doesn't hurt. Positioning them as things men don't do, or need to "man up" to do, not sure that helps so much. (and Scott, I did warn you in a Comment about the English boarding school experience when you mentioned it on a podcast a couple of years ago. The good thing is that what it can do to the father-son relationship is recoverable)
Divorce almost led to my self destruction and death. The last thing I am going to do is engage in another relationship--there is no point in getting the life sucked out of me again.
I can’t speak from a scientific perspective on fentanyl and its total impact, but if what I’m reading and seeing on tv is true it’s an epidemic. This is coming from someone who used to be hooked on opioids and I know how difficult they can be to tackle, withdrawing can be pure hell, so I get why people keep using it, but man am I happy I quit the habit long before fentanyl became a thing
@10:22 I believe that you meant to say that: "Family courts are biased towards Women." and NOT 'towards men'; at least that's how it is here in NYC family courts.
Would love to hear Scott round out this conversation by speaking to more people working on solutions in this realm. Eve Rodsky has been working towards rebalancing domestic responsibilites for a more equitable home life. Jason Wilson is mentoring and teaching boys how to access their emotions. Alexis Ohanian has a podcast talking to men about balancing work and fatherhood. There are organizations with novel approaches to providing mental health services like the Confess Project that empowers frontline workers to be stewards of mental health.
To much money is involved in the divorce business. Women, lawyers, courts, and gov are not going to give up their indentured servitudes (divorced men) to make any changes. Best thing men can do is see the writing on the wall and navigate accordingly. Some of examples of that are not getting married, find a wife outside the US, move to a state or country with more fair divorce laws for men.
Men don’t suffer from divorce, men cause divorce, men are so mediocre that they can’t handle being a husband and a provider at the same time, men are not good care givers, that why they want to children but not the actual work load of children, men beg on one knee to marry us yet are the worst partners and father, you are playing victim
There is another point that is missed, that is pets. There is a huge chunk of human loneliness and lack of trust comes from not having another lifeform around to connect with.
I agree with makech.. it's one thing to feel separated from the connection you need with this world, but a whole other thing to feel disconnected from God. Imagine as an exercise that God is everything, you live inside It and a tiny part of It lives inside you. Recenter/recalibrate your perspective, friend.. We're here to experience :)
My question remains: Which female is going to prefer a male who earns less than her? All else being equal, females still see the promise of or actual resource earning as an attractive quality in a mate. Moreover, how many males genuinely would accept, without resentment, a female who earns more than him? Very few I suspect would, and social engineering will not make any real changes in that regard.
It's hard to say. We still don't really understand how much of human behavior is innate vs. cultural. Technology has transformed the world over the past two centuries, but society hasn't fully caught up. Maybe a hundred years from now, women will be brought up with radically different expectations. Maybe they won't expect men to be their providers. Maybe that seems far-fetched, but consider how much society has already changed in the past 100 years.
You're not accounting for the quality of the women... American women are the twelfth most overweight women in the world their not in the position to be selective...
Good question. I don’t know too many women that are going to be willing to be with a guy where she will have to provide for both of them. It would have to be a really special guy for it to happen
Even when I led the group I never felt part of the group. I think you need to push the explorer side of where men can succeed. Ie let's hold high the name of the man who creates the recipe for transparent aluminum.
Someone could take up the subject of daycare centers and how they are substituting for mothers? Are they able to substitute? I can't see how they would be. If connection is the issue, the first connection between mother and infant is often broken by the mother needing or wanting to work.
I think more men need to talk about the positives of being a father. Perhaps it's because I'm an elder millinial, but I felt most men had to be forced into fatherhood by the women they were with becoming unexpectedly pregnant, as Scott has alluded to being how he, himself became a father, btw. I've also seen the "empty nest" syndrome being harder for my male friends than my female friends. So, I think the issue is that for young parents the stereotypes are somewhat true. There is a higher instance of men leaving thier children to be raised by single mothers, and perhaps these men were never family oriented in the first place, giving "all men" a bad rap. Also, women are obsessed with their small children, but gradually get worn out by the intensity of the role as the decades march on. That being said, the degree to which men who are family oriented are affected by divorce needs to be spoken about more, and there needs to be more honest discussion around what it takes to keep a family together, and it's usually money/finacial security and similar parenting styles. You have to have both.
I thought this was going to be about the rising rates of unexplained cancer in men. But instead it's just about lonely people. What's the solution to the loneliness problem? Get the fuck off of social media and gaming, and get connected to real people in the real world. Those are the addictions that are killing people.
I am equally as baffled by the loneliness epidemic. It has never been easier to meet people yet loneliness is highest it’s ever been since data has been recorded..? Are people that consumed by social media that they’ve lost ability to make friends in real life..?
My mother poisoned the way I saw my dad for along time, she would tell me “oh he just left” and at the time I couldn’t pick up on the deceit and manipulation but as time went on I began to see the lies, if I didn’t grow into a brain capable of free thinking i would have hated my dad well into adulthood just like my siblings, family court is far worse than antiquated it’s progressive.
50/50 child custody should be US federal law. And marriage, well men, keep doing that if what you seek is financial and emotional destruction. Your odds of getting that are better than a coin toss these days.
@@dosesandmimoses don't be naive. go ask your employer for accomodations because you get easily triggered and see how much they are actually willing to deal with you.
@@BAD_CONSUMER goodness. I only offered a different point of view… I am an employer.. but by all means, if you aren’t interested in discourse.. you do you.
Unfortunately none of the points in this fascinating conversation will lead to anything getting fixed because the feminist movement is too strong and men will continue to check-out of society norms and society as a whole.
When you decide something is impossible, you create a self fulfilling prophecy. Discussions like this plant the seed for action. Dont be such a lazy doomer.
What an unpleasant man Richard Reeves is - his message is lost in his mysogyny and contempt for women. Doesn't know why the boy scouts became the scouts? Really? Scott - I appreciate your search for truth when it comes to raising your sons - this was not the way.
Holy this hit me hard. I became a father (of twins) unexpectedly two weeks before I turned 19. Fast forward 14 years, 3 more kids (with the same woman), a university degree, and a blooming professional career, and I can’t function without my family. Went away for a work conference the other week and I can’t sleep, can’t function, without my family.
And it’s my teenage twins that give me the most excitement about being a Dad. Love the messages in this.
One of the best Prof G podcasts Ive heard. Im a father of two twenage boys and happily married. I'm blessed and I appreciate that every day. Such a powerful discussion. Thank you.
@@danwilliamson1991 These 2 male feminists are completely out of touch with the youth of today..
Incredible discussion, here in Australia Men suffer the same treatment from Divorce and Courts. We are lucky to survive, we work hard to see our children and provide for them.
Being a father is good for kids and Dads.
Men don’t suffer from divorce and courts, men are the reason why their wives leave and men are not good care givers, that why the mother stays with young children while the father provides but today men are so mediocre that they can’t handle being a husband and a provider
I remember growing up in the 1960s, during which I had to wear dresses to school and I was told over and over again that women grow up, get married, and have kids. I looked at my mother, who couldn't even get a credit card without my father signing for her, and swore that would never be me. I studied my butt off. I started working and earning money in high school, and I started college when I was in high school. I was the first person in my family to graduate from college and I did graduate studies after. I learned how to rebuild a small block engine, I learned how to weld. And even though I was told that it wasn't feminine and as I aged, that men wouldn't want me, I forged ahead. A lot of women did. And for the most part, we found partners, had satisfying careers, and have enjoyed our lives with - or without - children. Women got there in large part because their identities weren't wrapped up in gender-based roles, and that's part of why we've been successful in working outside of the home. It's also why a lot of women have trouble understanding why men are struggling to determine what it means to be masculine; it's the insistence on gender-based roles (if I can't be a man in the "traditional" sense, who am I?) that honestly does men little credit. I want to see young men be successful, but I'm genuinely stumped as to why they aren't rolling up their sleeves. I get that it's not necessarily fun, but studying and working meant that I had more freedom, and with freedom came options. Everyone, men and women, should have that.
When women no longer need men ...Men become unmotivated in the more critical aspects of life..
You've become the man you always wanted to marry. For over 6 decades feminists and their female enablers have drilled into the up and coming generations of men that they are useless, unworthy of respect and unwanted. Now today's women want traditional men while refusing to be traditional women. The result : increasing numbers of men have given up abandoning dating, marriage and society. Declaring they will no longer share their resources with women nor be their beasts of burden only to be discarded in a divorce.
But do you expect men to abandon all gender roles in a serious relationship with a woman? I ask because I have yet to meet a woman that didn’t want me to act in traditionally masculine ways. She wanted me initiate and approach, plan dates, escalate flirting and beyond .. I’m fine with doing away with certain gender roles but not all.
It will be interesting to see if more successful women date men that they will have to provide for Or where she makes 75% of the household income .
Scott, please expand on your comments about joining Greek life. There aren't many panaceas in life, but Greek life gets really close as it relates to the struggles of young adults, while also realizing (albeit imperfectly) the ideals from which higher education has strayed. Jonathan Haight has previously used a painting of Plato and his students among the olive trees in central Athens. That image represents not only the birth of the higher education ethos, but also represents the DNA of Greek life.
Agreed. A lot of talk but little depth.
Spectacular conversation! These discussions and learnings must find their ways to much larger percentages of men of all ages.
The USA is one of only two countries in the world that permits the advertising of pharmaceutical drugs, which still baffles me. It raises the question: what's the role of doctors in this system? When you allow profit-driven motives to influence healthcare, you're bound to face serious issues. The entire structure becomes driven by greed at every level.
Are you aware of the fact that both cocaine and miniature bottles of liquor are present in many if not most major hospitals? Cocaine is being used as an anesthetic for nasal surgery and little bottles of liquor are for people who are terminal and going to pass away soon and who request a drink for the road.
Do you think that your knowledge of this information and knowing about their existence and availability in incredibly specific circumstances is going to cause you to request them? If you do request them, do you think they will give them to you?
That's why. Being given information doesn't give you access if the doctor doesn't prescribe it to you or agree that it's medically relevant or appropriate for your specific needs.
Edit: I want to add that this isn't hearsay or internet rumor. I have physically been in possession of both of these when required while I was inside the hospital. This is standard in every hospital I have been in nationwide. They are both available for specific reasons and purposes. That doesn't mean you will have access or ability to get these.
What does this have to do with men dying deaths of loneliness?
@@tonyoramos1 Drug abuse is a major reason for deaths of despair, as you would know if you had watched the video.
@@Unknown-jt1jo do you have evidence that prescription drug marketing creates more overdose deaths?
@@tonyoramos1 higher availability + exposure, friend ;)
Everyone should listen to this. Very important.
Really good, enjoyable conversation. I haven't got any boys, but I get the sense that we have to pay particular attention to our boys in our families and communities.
How much that is needed is valuing what Fathers (and father figures) provide now - rather than dismissing their involvement as irrelevant. But yes, coming up with new labels that reframe existing contributions doesn't hurt. Positioning them as things men don't do, or need to "man up" to do, not sure that helps so much. (and Scott, I did warn you in a Comment about the English boarding school experience when you mentioned it on a podcast a couple of years ago. The good thing is that what it can do to the father-son relationship is recoverable)
Please bring on Gary Stevenson (Garys Economics)! Thanks!
Spectacular episode guys!!!! The defining of masculinity through surplus value is simple but hits the nail on the head!
A dyslexic here. I am hoping you produce an audio version of the book, Yes, boys can.
Divorce almost led to my self destruction and death. The last thing I am going to do is engage in another relationship--there is no point in getting the life sucked out of me again.
Automatic 50/50 custody will massively provide equality amongst the sexes.
most custody splits will go to both parents, if both are stable enough.
I can’t speak from a scientific perspective on fentanyl and its total impact, but if what I’m reading and seeing on tv is true it’s an epidemic. This is coming from someone who used to be hooked on opioids and I know how difficult they can be to tackle, withdrawing can be pure hell, so I get why people keep using it, but man am I happy I quit the habit long before fentanyl became a thing
Congrats on your sobriety
@10:22 I believe that you meant to say that: "Family courts are biased towards Women." and NOT 'towards men'; at least that's how it is here in NYC family courts.
Would love to hear Scott round out this conversation by speaking to more people working on solutions in this realm. Eve Rodsky has been working towards rebalancing domestic responsibilites for a more equitable home life. Jason Wilson is mentoring and teaching boys how to access their emotions. Alexis Ohanian has a podcast talking to men about balancing work and fatherhood. There are organizations with novel approaches to providing mental health services like the Confess Project that empowers frontline workers to be stewards of mental health.
To much money is involved in the divorce business. Women, lawyers, courts, and gov are not going to give up their indentured servitudes (divorced men) to make any changes. Best thing men can do is see the writing on the wall and navigate accordingly. Some of examples of that are not getting married, find a wife outside the US, move to a state or country with more fair divorce laws for men.
Men don’t suffer from divorce, men cause divorce, men are so mediocre that they can’t handle being a husband and a provider at the same time, men are not good care givers, that why they want to children but not the actual work load of children, men beg on one knee to marry us yet are the worst partners and father, you are playing victim
There is another point that is missed, that is pets. There is a huge chunk of human loneliness and lack of trust comes from not having another lifeform around to connect with.
Imagine being zeroed out from your wife, your kids, your job, your church, your extended family, your government, your God...
i feel you on "wife, your kids, your job. . . your extended family, your government" 100%, but not my church or the God i worship.
I agree with makech.. it's one thing to feel separated from the connection you need with this world, but a whole other thing to feel disconnected from God. Imagine as an exercise that God is everything, you live inside It and a tiny part of It lives inside you. Recenter/recalibrate your perspective, friend.. We're here to experience :)
You Should do a collaboration with Gary Stevenson from Gary’s Economics
Great video Scott, keep talking about this please. 👍😊👍
Going from that trash teir environmental content to this, way to go, more people like this Scott
My question remains: Which female is going to prefer a male who earns less than her? All else being equal, females still see the promise of or actual resource earning as an attractive quality in a mate. Moreover, how many males genuinely would accept, without resentment, a female who earns more than him? Very few I suspect would, and social engineering will not make any real changes in that regard.
Ive married 3 times (2 passed away) and all 3 made less money than me, your full of bull dinkle
It's hard to say. We still don't really understand how much of human behavior is innate vs. cultural. Technology has transformed the world over the past two centuries, but society hasn't fully caught up.
Maybe a hundred years from now, women will be brought up with radically different expectations. Maybe they won't expect men to be their providers. Maybe that seems far-fetched, but consider how much society has already changed in the past 100 years.
My Wife makes more than me. When we first started dating she was making 4 times the amount of money. Now she makes about 2.5 times more money.
You're not accounting for the quality of the women... American women are the twelfth most overweight women in the world their not in the position to be selective...
Good question. I don’t know too many women that are going to be willing to be with a guy where she will have to provide for both of them. It would have to be a really special guy for it to happen
10:23 - "Family court is bias towards men."
Wow. Eye-opening.
Even when I led the group I never felt part of the group. I think you need to push the explorer side of where men can succeed. Ie let's hold high the name of the man who creates the recipe for transparent aluminum.
Someone could take up the subject of daycare centers and how they are substituting for mothers? Are they able to substitute? I can't see how they would be. If connection is the issue, the first connection between mother and infant is often broken by the mother needing or wanting to work.
I think more men need to talk about the positives of being a father. Perhaps it's because I'm an elder millinial, but I felt most men had to be forced into fatherhood by the women they were with becoming unexpectedly pregnant, as Scott has alluded to being how he, himself became a father, btw. I've also seen the "empty nest" syndrome being harder for my male friends than my female friends. So, I think the issue is that for young parents the stereotypes are somewhat true. There is a higher instance of men leaving thier children to be raised by single mothers, and perhaps these men were never family oriented in the first place, giving "all men" a bad rap. Also, women are obsessed with their small children, but gradually get worn out by the intensity of the role as the decades march on.
That being said, the degree to which men who are family oriented are affected by divorce needs to be spoken about more, and there needs to be more honest discussion around what it takes to keep a family together, and it's usually money/finacial security and similar parenting styles. You have to have both.
I thought this was going to be about the rising rates of unexplained cancer in men. But instead it's just about lonely people. What's the solution to the loneliness problem? Get the fuck off of social media and gaming, and get connected to real people in the real world. Those are the addictions that are killing people.
I am equally as baffled by the loneliness epidemic. It has never been easier to meet people yet loneliness is highest it’s ever been since data has been recorded..? Are people that consumed by social media that they’ve lost ability to make friends in real life..?
My mother poisoned the way I saw my dad for along time, she would tell me “oh he just left” and at the time I couldn’t pick up on the deceit and manipulation but as time went on I began to see the lies, if I didn’t grow into a brain capable of free thinking i would have hated my dad well into adulthood just like my siblings, family court is far worse than antiquated it’s progressive.
Why did this video are a community strike?
50/50 child custody should be US federal law. And marriage, well men, keep doing that if what you seek is financial and emotional destruction. Your odds of getting that are better than a coin toss these days.
Two feminist men having a conversation about boys and men. ..........
💉 ☠️ safe & effective ☠️ 💉
F'ing trigger warnings on videos ? What a weak generation
Or, maybe, the warning is signal of acknowledgment and respect.. mono vs stereo
@@dosesandmimoses don't be naive. go ask your employer for accomodations because you get easily triggered and see how much they are actually willing to deal with you.
@@BAD_CONSUMER goodness. I only offered a different point of view… I am an employer.. but by all means, if you aren’t interested in discourse.. you do you.
Try going to college when you are much older than the normal student. Talk about lonely.
Unfortunately none of the points in this fascinating conversation will lead to anything getting fixed because the feminist movement is too strong and men will continue to check-out of society norms and society as a whole.
When you decide something is impossible, you create a self fulfilling prophecy. Discussions like this plant the seed for action. Dont be such a lazy doomer.
So you think the evil feminists will do--what, exactly? Prevent male fraternal organizations from forming?
Says the male feminist who holds women accountable to nothing...@@future62
What an unpleasant man Richard Reeves is - his message is lost in his mysogyny and contempt for women. Doesn't know why the boy scouts became the scouts? Really? Scott - I appreciate your search for truth when it comes to raising your sons - this was not the way.
There is no way to cure (my) loneliness. Loneliness started as a physical presence and then evolved into a psychological state.