Don't forget about Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Slayer, a 3DO exclusive first person dungeon crawler that's almost identical to this, but with free movement. Randomized grid-based dungeons with a customization screen and the seed displayed for sharing, no real story, single character party with a character you define, and a pretty good automap. Combat is almost identical to normal first person dungeon crawler combat, except with a little more freedom / jank due to free movement. There's another 3DO D&D game, Deathkeep, which is similar but has a better engine (sloped floors / angled walls), and has an actual story and fixed dungeon layout - that one got a PC port, though I can't say how good it is since I've only played it on 3DO.
I remember reading about Slayer while making this video. Definitely something that would make for an interesting subject, but likely not within my means at the moment.
@@fandraxx Totally fair - 3DO emulation is not in a great state, and it was never ported anywhere else. One of your recent videos mentioned more in-depth looks at the Gold Box games though, and I'm looking forward to those!
I love Dungeon Hack, but I always wished it was more like "Eye of the Beholder: Infinite Adventures." Having a 4-member party would make the game much more playable. As it stands, going in with a character lacking cleric abilities is essentially hard mode.
They probably say "over 4 billion dungeons" because the PRNG they use is seeded with a 32 bits number. So it cannot possibly generate more than 2^32 (about 4 billion) unique dungeons. But also there are so many ways to rearrange a maze, I would expect that every generated one is different from the others (and most likely fairly significantly so). 4 billion dungeons is very believable. But at some point once you've seen enough mazes generated by a certain algorithm it won't matter if there's a thousand of them or 50 billion you kind of get the idea...
It's fine. Basically what you can expect from a basic procedural dungeon crawler in NWN. But honnestly as someone that loves rogue likes, it does show potential for a more fleshed out module with random dungeons
I like to roll my stats and then do direct 1:1 point swapping. The intent of freely being able to change stats was to transfer your tabletop characters (or from other video games I guess) into the game. I think they missed a step not being able to import characters from the Pool of Radiance series. The billion maps claim is likely true; but not all maps would be particularly playable, and it would like include the same map layouts with different options.
Good review. If you want more accessible early 90s CRPGs I highly recommend Ultima VI and VII (both parts). Combat in Ultima VII especially isn’t even all that integral to the game. Also there’s both Ultima Underworld games, which stand the test of time in terms of design, if not controls. Other great early 90’s CRPGs I’ve played: Betrayal at Krondor Lands of Lore Might and Magic IV and V (World of Xeen)
@@fandraxx Yep he played through both of them as I recall. They're amazing games even today, frankly. They're technically the first "immersive sims", even though the term hadn't been invented yet. The biggest hurdle are the controls and interface, but with practice it becomes natural, and the game's are pretty forgiving in terms of combat difficulty.
@@matternicuss Good points about the much loved ultima underworld games. I would just say for ultima 6 and especially 7 it was a clusterfizzok because 7 and serpents isle had real time combat that is pretty much the worst combat in an rpg ever but the story, exploration (beautiful cloth maps come with boxed version) and especially immersive sim like nature of the mechanics more than make up for it.
@@idnintel Ultima VI’s combat is actually much better than VII’s, at least in theory. Being turned based made it more manageable, but it got tedious after a while. VII’s combat is pretty bad, but it’s so easy and quick that it hardly matters. The sourceport Exult adds the ability to pause during combat, which makes it a tad more enjoyable if still not great.
But the grid map is either floor or wall, not the thin wall between floor spaces variety. So you can use some logic looking at the negative spaces in the map to deduce where you need to go, right? And illusionary walls have to be in that area?
One small correction: Elves (and I think half-elves) can detect illusory walls. It doesn't show up on the map but if you're standing close to one they'll say something about it. Not that it helps much... Given that the text is so small and you're probably so busy looking literally anywhere else on the screen to even notice it
Played this to death back in the day. Pretty sure I turned off Water Level and Illusionary Walls and played a Cleric almost always. I've loved random run-throughs ever since.
I mean Nethack is a D&D Roguelike. Also the definition of a Roguelike is actually quite clear and well defined Totalbiscuit(May he rest in peace) did a video years ago explaining what the difference between a Roguelike and a Roguelite is.
So, you mentioned how odd it is to play a game that doesn't have sound all the time. YEARS(!!!!) ago I was watching tennis televised by the BBC, and the guy calling the match rarely spoke. He would tell you the score and VERY infrequently might say- oh jolly good shot, or something to that effect. I HATE(!!!!!!!!) talking heads, I have not watched TV for over 15yrs, in large part, because the people who call games, commercials, news casters, are, hmmmm, annoying to be polite, but I have been trained to expect talking and that BBC guy, creeped me the hell out. I have also been finding play throughs on UA-cam where the person never says anything. This is also annoying because it would be nice if they gave a bit of information/context. I liked this, by the way.
Thank you! I think the oddity of the lack of sound in this game comes more from the lack of ambient sound. No music is one thing, but not hearing any sounds you would expect from being in a dungeon can be a bit jarring. Imagine it would've been like watching that tennis match without hearing the players or the sound of the ball being served back and forth.
@@fandraxx OH I completely agree. Maybe I was not clear. Dripping water, doors, breathing, bodies exploding, etc one kinda expects that. Maybe not talking, but *background* noise certainly. The lack of that would be as weird for me as the compleatlack of talking is in other circumstances.
This game is pretty polished, but I don't like it very much. I like first person dungeon crawlers, but here are my two big issues: A ) A dungeon crawler is only as good as its dungeon design, and the randomly generated dungeons are pretty much shit in this game. B ) Single player dungeon crawlers are lame, it's all about the party! I recommend you just play EOB1 or EOB2 instead. Or if you like the reduced party size, Lands of Lore. Three very polished and accessible games.
Don't forget about Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Slayer, a 3DO exclusive first person dungeon crawler that's almost identical to this, but with free movement. Randomized grid-based dungeons with a customization screen and the seed displayed for sharing, no real story, single character party with a character you define, and a pretty good automap. Combat is almost identical to normal first person dungeon crawler combat, except with a little more freedom / jank due to free movement.
There's another 3DO D&D game, Deathkeep, which is similar but has a better engine (sloped floors / angled walls), and has an actual story and fixed dungeon layout - that one got a PC port, though I can't say how good it is since I've only played it on 3DO.
I remember reading about Slayer while making this video. Definitely something that would make for an interesting subject, but likely not within my means at the moment.
@@fandraxx Totally fair - 3DO emulation is not in a great state, and it was never ported anywhere else. One of your recent videos mentioned more in-depth looks at the Gold Box games though, and I'm looking forward to those!
I've been a BIG fan of DungeonHack since its release. Love it to this day.
I love Dungeon Hack, but I always wished it was more like "Eye of the Beholder: Infinite Adventures." Having a 4-member party would make the game much more playable. As it stands, going in with a character lacking cleric abilities is essentially hard mode.
They probably say "over 4 billion dungeons" because the PRNG they use is seeded with a 32 bits number. So it cannot possibly generate more than 2^32 (about 4 billion) unique dungeons. But also there are so many ways to rearrange a maze, I would expect that every generated one is different from the others (and most likely fairly significantly so). 4 billion dungeons is very believable.
But at some point once you've seen enough mazes generated by a certain algorithm it won't matter if there's a thousand of them or 50 billion you kind of get the idea...
came here looking for this comment, it is pretty easy to make a random seed with and int. And every one of those generations will be unique!
1st-2nd edition elves can detect illusion walls better than humans...
While you mention nobody else has done this, the Moraff's Dungeons series is pretty similar.
Amazing content 👍
nice
Neverwinter Nights has an expansion called Infinite Dungeons that uses procedural generation for D&D 3e. I haven't actually tried it.
It's fine. Basically what you can expect from a basic procedural dungeon crawler in NWN.
But honnestly as someone that loves rogue likes, it does show potential for a more fleshed out module with random dungeons
I like to roll my stats and then do direct 1:1 point swapping. The intent of freely being able to change stats was to transfer your tabletop characters (or from other video games I guess) into the game.
I think they missed a step not being able to import characters from the Pool of Radiance series.
The billion maps claim is likely true; but not all maps would be particularly playable, and it would like include the same map layouts with different options.
Good review. If you want more accessible early 90s CRPGs I highly recommend Ultima VI and VII (both parts). Combat in Ultima VII especially isn’t even all that integral to the game. Also there’s both Ultima Underworld games, which stand the test of time in terms of design, if not controls.
Other great early 90’s CRPGs I’ve played:
Betrayal at Krondor
Lands of Lore
Might and Magic IV and V (World of Xeen)
I seem to remember Kikoskia playing Ultima Underworld years ago. Seemed neat. I'll have to give it a look.
@@fandraxx Yep he played through both of them as I recall. They're amazing games even today, frankly. They're technically the first "immersive sims", even though the term hadn't been invented yet. The biggest hurdle are the controls and interface, but with practice it becomes natural, and the game's are pretty forgiving in terms of combat difficulty.
@@matternicuss Good points about the much loved ultima underworld games. I would just say for ultima 6 and especially 7 it was a clusterfizzok because 7 and serpents isle had real time combat that is pretty much the worst combat in an rpg ever but the story, exploration (beautiful cloth maps come with boxed version) and especially immersive sim like nature of the mechanics more than make up for it.
@@idnintel Ultima VI’s combat is actually much better than VII’s, at least in theory. Being turned based made it more manageable, but it got tedious after a while. VII’s combat is pretty bad, but it’s so easy and quick that it hardly matters.
The sourceport Exult adds the ability to pause during combat, which makes it a tad more enjoyable if still not great.
@@matternicuss Yes I agree combat is no winner in the series unlike underrail or temple of elemental evil.
But the grid map is either floor or wall, not the thin wall between floor spaces variety. So you can use some logic looking at the negative spaces in the map to deduce where you need to go, right? And illusionary walls have to be in that area?
One small correction: Elves (and I think half-elves) can detect illusory walls. It doesn't show up on the map but if you're standing close to one they'll say something about it. Not that it helps much... Given that the text is so small and you're probably so busy looking literally anywhere else on the screen to even notice it
Roguelikes are not fast paced by design.
Played this to death back in the day. Pretty sure I turned off Water Level and Illusionary Walls and played a Cleric almost always. I've loved random run-throughs ever since.
Disabling the water levels is pretty much a nonnegotiable. Just the WORST.
I played the hell out of this game when I was a kid, I beat it a few times, but it wasn't easy.
I mean Nethack is a D&D Roguelike. Also the definition of a Roguelike is actually quite clear and well defined Totalbiscuit(May he rest in peace) did a video years ago explaining what the difference between a Roguelike and a Roguelite is.
This! While this video is well made, fully ignoring games like NetHack feels strange.
Love this one. Still can't believe it hasn't been remade with modern graphics ( Hopefully a nice dark tone like Grimrock).
It's entirely underground; no Druids makes sense
Adv D&D - it was 3000 y.ago ;)
So, you mentioned how odd it is to play a game that doesn't have sound all the time.
YEARS(!!!!) ago I was watching tennis televised by the BBC, and the guy calling the match rarely spoke. He would tell you the score and VERY infrequently might say- oh jolly good shot, or something to that effect. I HATE(!!!!!!!!) talking heads, I have not watched TV for over 15yrs, in large part, because the people who call games, commercials, news casters, are, hmmmm, annoying to be polite, but I have been trained to expect talking and that BBC guy, creeped me the hell out. I have also been finding play throughs on UA-cam where the person never says anything. This is also annoying because it would be nice if they gave a bit of information/context.
I liked this, by the way.
Thank you!
I think the oddity of the lack of sound in this game comes more from the lack of ambient sound. No music is one thing, but not hearing any sounds you would expect from being in a dungeon can be a bit jarring. Imagine it would've been like watching that tennis match without hearing the players or the sound of the ball being served back and forth.
@@fandraxx OH I completely agree. Maybe I was not clear. Dripping water, doors, breathing, bodies exploding, etc one kinda expects that. Maybe not talking, but *background* noise certainly. The lack of that would be as weird for me as the compleatlack of talking is in other circumstances.
1:40 hey what game is this? Much appreciated if known.
Legend of Dungeon
@@fandraxx thanks!
4:55 BECAUSE IT'S FUN
I had this game back in the day and I still have dreams about it.
sweet dreams d&d prince.
This game is pretty polished, but I don't like it very much. I like first person dungeon crawlers, but here are my two big issues:
A ) A dungeon crawler is only as good as its dungeon design, and the randomly generated dungeons are pretty much shit in this game.
B ) Single player dungeon crawlers are lame, it's all about the party!
I recommend you just play EOB1 or EOB2 instead. Or if you like the reduced party size, Lands of Lore. Three very polished and accessible games.