Yet again awesome. I am not even a stage sound guy, I have a big project studio. But the wealth of knowledge, experience and experimentation being shared in Dave’s channel is invaluable for anyone interested in audio.
You're point of view is always interesting; those of us who are hi-fi PA system addicts are constantly on the hunt for the ever-elusive perfect sound. When we hear it, it's such a lovely thing that all the crappy gear, drunken band members, power failures, terrible solos, and "if I could only grab that board and fix this horrible sound" days become seemingly unimportant... but we learned from those experiences. And hopefully found THE SOUND we crave.
Theoretically port location isn't relevant. At least according to everything I have read. Though in real world experience I've found that locating the ports close to the speaker is better than further away as the summation of the port output and speaker output is important. Also, coupling the port to the floor is even more beneficial than having the ports close to the driver. As far as buttons vs ring neo magnets, we compared both and the button HF, ring LF was optimum for the 15
@LandRoverTeun Nope, it was the D & B black paint. The L'Acoustics have rubber 'bands around the ends that do well at preventing the paint from marking the floor.
@LandRoverTeun Actually it was the D&B that made the black marks. I was moving these around and it does not leave much room for mistaking where the marks were coming from. The rubber ring and MicroWedege feet did not leave marks.
Great question and the easy answer is because Rat Sound does not own M4's but we do own M2's. And I just grabbed some wedges from the Rat shop, brought them home, took them apart and shared the view, purely out of curiosity.
thanks alot,very infomative,will be looking into your other video's as well.its wonderfull to get info from the master...and its free. thanks once again.god bless.
@dorinpetrean I have not heard them yet. Nexo is pretty good at making good sounding, loud and small speaker products so I would expect it to sound pretty good. Since Nexo uses reflected sound for the high frequency to achieve the coverage pattern, my experience is that there are artifacts caused by that indirect sound that are less optimum than direct sound that the Microwedge offers.
Most likely they would not be optimum for a car but never thought of it but it may be a bit of a wallet squeeze. Lets see, for 2 D&B M2 wedges and 2 of the dedicated mono amps, figure about $17,000 or so. For the L'Acoustics and a four channel LA-8 amp, it will only run ya about say $13,000 or so. And a pair of Micro's and a 4 channel processed amp will only set ya back maybe $10,000. Plus the amps all power from 120 volts so you would need a pretty hefty inverter as well.
I was at a concert where the sound guys put an EAW micro wedge monitor up on the smaller side, on top of a subwoofer. Are they even designed to do that?
@@DaveRat Yeah, just wondering because they don’t mention using it like that on the EAW website. Fun fact: I am pretty sure a large portion of newer D&B audiotechnik stuff use B&C components. Don’t know who L-acoustics uses for the driver, but it looked remarkably like the 18 sound component. I find it interesting that even though the drivers in the EAW and L-acoustics products are similar, L-acoustics decided to add a waveguide to the hf component, which seems not to serve a purpose if you can just use the lf cone as a waveguide like EAW does. Also, does the non-coaxial configuration of the d&b monitor have any pros or cons? I like the d&b line arrays and subs the best as an audience member, (especially the subs, which hit you in the chest like no other,) but I always wonder who makes better wedges.
Pretty cool you designed the EAW product. If only their line arrays were as good. I think the adaptive systems have a plus of not being as harsh on the ears, but I don’t think the Otto sub stands a chance.
Really enjoyed the video, not often can one rip apart top model wedges in their dining room. One question though-you say a couple times that the 15" on the microwedge acts as the horn-does that mean that the throat length vary with the excursion of the driver or is there a smaller horn hidden under the dust cap with the 15" as a final flare? My rather limited understanding of horn design thinks that a throat of continually varying length would have continually varying tuning, yes? Cheers-PR
@www73171 La's rubber band is good, nut not enough. From their smaller products, like 108P it just comes off... but that is only a rubber ring. The 115 HiQ's band is more stiff
@LandRoverTeun I think the RM12 is better than RM15, and both are just not good. RM18 is a defferent story and the PSM12 is actually really good too...
Hey Dave, Joel here... Two questions, don't you think that ports beside the drivers affects acoustical response? and, the other one, coaxials rules, i try and test your Wedge and is awesome, but the one thing i don't get is why they use Neo Buttoms instead a complete magnet has always, knowing that has many magnets you put, many polar "fights" will be there, isn't that important?
Thanx Dave, I really like your video's (if you have some time to make some new ones, it would be lovely). I have a question, you talk about the amount of feedback stability versus a good direct in your face volume between the d&b and the EAW. But from the reasons you give for the different characteristics, I would say the L'Acoustics has both advantages. Direct in you face volume because of the horn slope and a stable feedback characteristic because its a coax speaker. Can you explain it a lil bit more? Thanx again!
the perception of "In you face volume" tends to be a result of directivity. The more beamy the design, the more direct to ambient signal one hears and the result is a more "in your face sound" rather that a more smooth and natural sound. Both have advantages depending on the applications and preferences or the listener
@www73171 As you already said with this point "Why do these wedges have so much bottom-end? ...", that's clearly, Dave rules! What about the sound? Did you compare this little boxes with MicroW? I hear them already and I just was amazed. I'm asking this because I didn't have the chance to listen MicroW yet.
@www73171 uhhh, I have to listen Micro's then. I'm looking for smallest wedges monitors as possible and very well balanced sound, proof made. I started with d&b, which are very nice but not as small as I want. Nexo was in my looking direction pretty small, high spl even at 2 or 3 meters very well balanced and tight sound. anyway i had to give a look to micro's before I made my decision.
I can't remember, as with many manufacturers, l acoustics has the speaker company make special cool, cone, magnet combos to suit the enclosure and goals. So it won't match an actual series exactly. You could try and search for the speakers they make that use the same frame and similar cone. Pretty sure the horn is an l acoustics custom part, as is the horn mount. I know when I design with EAW for the microwedge, we used cones that are on mo other 18sound products, altered the cone curvature, the thickness, added a water resistant coating, determined the voice cool depth, used aluminum wire on the 12, and copper wire on the 15, determined the magnet types, button on the 12 and ring on the 15, searched out custom dust caps and that is just what comes to mind. So the drivers are far from off the shelf.
Hi Dave! What are your thoughts on large-scale point source systems from the likes of Danley and KV2 etc? From what I have read they have many benefits and don't suffer from the comb filtering of traditional line-arrays.
It really depends on what your goals are and what concessions you are willing to make. here is an article I wrote on the subject www.prosoundweb.com/article/zoned_summed_and_line_arrays/
Dave Rat Nice! Very interesting read Dave! One difference I find between older zoned speakers and the new KV2 and Danley rigs is that using multi-aperture horns and coupling they design their speakers to be loud enough and have the loudness, coverage and throw of some line-arrays that you only need one box per side, thereby eliminating any possible vertical interference at further distances in the high frequency on line-arrays or zoned. (Which you can hear using pink noise and moving from front to back and diagonal.) But as you said, most people really won't notice with real world audio and playback, and these boxes as impressive as they may be, don't have the flexibility/modularity that line-arrays have. I really like this subject because in all honesty there is always great progression in speaker design in both point-source and array! :-) Thanks again
![[UA] NAVI проти G2 Esports | Blast Premier Fall Final](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QWlIm4FGESQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Yet again awesome. I am not even a stage sound guy, I have a big project studio. But the wealth of knowledge, experience and experimentation being shared in Dave’s channel is invaluable for anyone interested in audio.
Thank you David!
You're point of view is always interesting; those of us who are hi-fi PA system addicts are constantly on the hunt for the ever-elusive perfect sound. When we hear it, it's such a lovely thing that all the crappy gear, drunken band members, power failures, terrible solos, and "if I could only grab that board and fix this horrible sound" days become seemingly unimportant... but we learned from those experiences. And hopefully found THE SOUND we crave.
👍
Wow, thank you so much. Now that Peppers' tour is winding down I will try and do some more videos to upload.
Outstanding video, Dave! I use all 3 of these and found a look inside very helpful.
👍
Theoretically port location isn't relevant. At least according to everything I have read. Though in real world experience I've found that locating the ports close to the speaker is better than further away as the summation of the port output and speaker output is important.
Also, coupling the port to the floor is even more beneficial than having the ports close to the driver.
As far as buttons vs ring neo magnets, we compared both and the button HF, ring LF was optimum for the 15
@LandRoverTeun Nope, it was the D & B black paint. The L'Acoustics have rubber 'bands around the ends that do well at preventing the paint from marking the floor.
@LandRoverTeun Actually it was the D&B that made the black marks. I was moving these around and it does not leave much room for mistaking where the marks were coming from. The rubber ring and MicroWedege feet did not leave marks.
Thank you Gabriel!
dude.. im so much like you...
keep it coming great vid... this is the only way how we can make a more... wide decision..
keep it coming bro....
Great question and the easy answer is because Rat Sound does not own M4's but we do own M2's. And I just grabbed some wedges from the Rat shop, brought them home, took them apart and shared the view, purely out of curiosity.
thanks alot,very infomative,will be looking into your other video's as well.its wonderfull to get info from the master...and its free. thanks once again.god bless.
@dorinpetrean I have not heard them yet. Nexo is pretty good at making good sounding, loud and small speaker products so I would expect it to sound pretty good. Since Nexo uses reflected sound for the high frequency to achieve the coverage pattern, my experience is that there are artifacts caused by that indirect sound that are less optimum than direct sound that the Microwedge offers.
@dorinpetrean Ya know there is a MicroWedge 10 and MicroWedge 8 coming out soon as well and they are really small and quite loud,
Very cool and thank you.
@chazhs Rat Sound does not have Nexo gear and not familiar enough to give in depth opinions though.
@dorinpetrean I saw that they copied the "port to the floor" design that I came up with for the MicroWedge.
Maybe I've missed it somewhere but why not test a d&b M4 which is closest in design to the others, ie. single 15", coaxial.
@czeka2 Dave is a great guy (and a great mind), he has his own fan following, in addition to you techies, from the Chili Peppers world. We love Dave!
Most likely they would not be optimum for a car but never thought of it but it may be a bit of a wallet squeeze.
Lets see, for 2 D&B M2 wedges and 2 of the dedicated mono amps, figure about $17,000 or so.
For the L'Acoustics and a four channel LA-8 amp, it will only run ya about say $13,000 or so.
And a pair of Micro's and a 4 channel processed amp will only set ya back maybe $10,000.
Plus the amps all power from 120 volts so you would need a pretty hefty inverter as well.
B&C, 18Sound, Precison Devices. All high quality pro stuff.
Yes!
@@DaveRat I'm thinking of buying a pair of those B&C 12plb76 like in the D&B. How do they sound? Good middbass? Punchy?
I was at a concert where the sound guys put an EAW micro wedge monitor up on the smaller side, on top of a subwoofer. Are they even designed to do that?
Absolutely, I designed them to be 90 degrees when the port faces up.
@@DaveRat Yeah, just wondering because they don’t mention using it like that on the EAW website. Fun fact: I am pretty sure a large portion of newer D&B audiotechnik stuff use B&C components. Don’t know who L-acoustics uses for the driver, but it looked remarkably like the 18 sound component. I find it interesting that even though the drivers in the EAW and L-acoustics products are similar, L-acoustics decided to add a waveguide to the hf component, which seems not to serve a purpose if you can just use the lf cone as a waveguide like EAW does. Also, does the non-coaxial configuration of the d&b monitor have any pros or cons? I like the d&b line arrays and subs the best as an audience member, (especially the subs, which hit you in the chest like no other,) but I always wonder who makes better wedges.
Pretty cool you designed the EAW product. If only their line arrays were as good. I think the adaptive systems have a plus of not being as harsh on the ears, but I don’t think the Otto sub stands a chance.
Really enjoyed the video, not often can one rip apart top model wedges in their dining room. One question though-you say a couple times that the 15" on the microwedge acts as the horn-does that mean that the throat length vary with the excursion of the driver or is there a smaller horn hidden under the dust cap with the 15" as a final flare? My rather limited understanding of horn design thinks that a throat of continually varying length would have continually varying tuning, yes? Cheers-PR
Can you still purchase the micro wedge? Always been a go to wedge for the big shows
Yeah, it is still the main wedge from EAW in their product line.
Holding it's ground!!
@www73171
La's rubber band is good, nut not enough. From their smaller products, like 108P it just comes off... but that is only a rubber ring. The 115 HiQ's band is more stiff
@LandRoverTeun
I think the RM12 is better than RM15, and both are just not good. RM18 is a defferent story and the PSM12 is actually really good too...
Hey Dave, Joel here...
Two questions, don't you think that ports beside the drivers affects acoustical response? and, the other one, coaxials rules, i try and test your Wedge and is awesome, but the one thing i don't get is why they use Neo Buttoms instead a complete magnet has always, knowing that has many magnets you put, many polar "fights" will be there, isn't that important?
Ha!, yeah, I got a bit behind on responding :)
Thanx Dave, I really like your video's (if you have some time to make some new ones, it would be lovely).
I have a question, you talk about the amount of feedback stability versus a good direct in your face volume between the d&b and the EAW. But from the reasons you give for the different characteristics, I would say the L'Acoustics has both advantages. Direct in you face volume because of the horn slope and a stable feedback characteristic because its a coax speaker. Can you explain it a lil bit more? Thanx again!
the perception of "In you face volume" tends to be a result of directivity. The more beamy the design, the more direct to ambient signal one hears and the result is a more "in your face sound" rather that a more smooth and natural sound. Both have advantages depending on the applications and preferences or the listener
amazing good job
@www73171
As you already said with this point "Why do these wedges have so much bottom-end? ...", that's clearly, Dave rules!
What about the sound? Did you compare this little boxes with MicroW?
I hear them already and I just was amazed. I'm asking this because I didn't have the chance to listen MicroW yet.
Agreed, not a big fan of the rubber band either
I believe it is
Dave
What do you think is better? Is the coaxial design from lacoustics or conventional design like Nexo? Thanks
d&b is boss haha :D
@www73171 uhhh, I have to listen Micro's then. I'm looking for smallest wedges monitors as possible and very well balanced sound, proof made. I started with d&b, which are very nice but not as small as I want. Nexo was in my looking direction pretty small, high spl even at 2 or 3 meters very well balanced and tight sound. anyway i had to give a look to micro's before I made my decision.
what driver l'acoustics uses ?
I think those are B&C
what series ??
I can't remember, as with many manufacturers, l acoustics has the speaker company make special cool, cone, magnet combos to suit the enclosure and goals. So it won't match an actual series exactly. You could try and search for the speakers they make that use the same frame and similar cone.
Pretty sure the horn is an l acoustics custom part, as is the horn mount.
I know when I design with EAW for the microwedge, we used cones that are on mo other 18sound products, altered the cone curvature, the thickness, added a water resistant coating, determined the voice cool depth, used aluminum wire on the 12, and copper wire on the 15, determined the magnet types, button on the 12 and ring on the 15, searched out custom dust caps and that is just what comes to mind.
So the drivers are far from off the shelf.
@@DaveRat thanks for the information
Do all L Acoustics products use B&C Speakers.??
And what do you think driver the L Acoustics K series Uses ?
would thos sound good in a box in a car hooked up to an amp?
Does EAW not use RCF drivers?
The drivers in the microwedge are 18sound
some one or you guys from ratsound have a look at nexo 45°N-12 loudspeaker monitor?
Hi Dave! What are your thoughts on large-scale point source systems from the likes of Danley and KV2 etc? From what I have read they have many benefits and don't suffer from the comb filtering of traditional line-arrays.
It really depends on what your goals are and what concessions you are willing to make.
here is an article I wrote on the subject
www.prosoundweb.com/article/zoned_summed_and_line_arrays/
Dave Rat Cheers :-)
Dave Rat Nice! Very interesting read Dave! One difference I find between older zoned speakers and the new KV2 and Danley rigs is that using multi-aperture horns and coupling they design their speakers to be loud enough and have the loudness, coverage and throw of some line-arrays that you only need one box per side, thereby eliminating any possible vertical interference at further distances in the high frequency on line-arrays or zoned. (Which you can hear using pink noise and moving from front to back and diagonal.) But as you said, most people really won't notice with real world audio and playback, and these boxes as impressive as they may be, don't have the flexibility/modularity that line-arrays have. I really like this subject because in all honesty there is always great progression in speaker design in both point-source and array! :-) Thanks again
@@DaveRat Moved to www.prosoundweb.com/zoned-summed-line-a-discussion-of-array-structures-performance/
The kv2 subwoofers are unbeatable though. I’ve never experienced anything else like them in my life, except maybe a D&B sub that came close.
@1956pepper Sometimes jus good, if a person, who works in pro audio field starts to use his mind and hels in the development.
D&B
Or a long long cable :D
Jeez, Dave, are you falling behind in your comments? lol like years behind?
ADHD
Sheffield
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