Thank you for this excellent review, Joel. The one thing that I thought may have been underdeveloped was discussion of any reflections in the book about whether she understands strong patriarchy to be intrinsic to Christianity or an aberration from it. But maybe there weren't any.
So, to answer your question.... From a historical perspective, Christianity began under the rule of the Roman Empire which was heavily patriarchal and so you have to believe that the culture of the day would have had an impact on the theology/interpretations of the early church. And that's kind of the way it is today.... Feminism, women's rights, and other aspects of our cultural milieu will have (and have had) an impact on society's interpretation of scripture. In fact, I think that the culture (or social imaginary as Charles Taylor puts it) has a major impact on many things, even Law and how it's interpreted. The US Supreme Court is a perfect example, but I don't want to get into that right now. From a theological perspective, the OT definitely has men in the majority of leadership roles. Women like Deborah (Judges) and maybe Naomi (Ruth) seem to be exceptions to the rule here. But for the most part, a type of patriarchy is definitely prominent in my opinion although I am no OT scholar by any means. Maybe you could shine some light on that for me??? I am fascinated by the whole Adam/Eve help meet thing (ezer-neged)... As for the NT, well, it presents a more nuanced view. Jesus’ interactions with women were often countercultural, showing them respect and dignity. Paul’s letters, which have been interpreted as supporting patriarchy, also contain the idea of equality. So IMO, there is definitely a theological basis for arguing that patriarchy is not intrinsic to Christianity. The core teachings, particularly those of Jesus, emphasize love, respect, and equality, allowing for interpretations that support equality.
@@BillyBoy66 Hey, BB. Thanks for your comments. I'm considering starting my own channel; I mainly need to get over some of my tech ignorance....Patriarchy is a kind of sexism, a kind of belief that men are superior to women. A patriarchy, in theory, could be more or less benign, but it seems fundamentally flawed in principle: men are not in charge of women. I find it funny that many Christians who don't think Jews are the chosen people (anymore) still think men are the chosen sex.
In therapy, one sees narcissism, spectrum disorder, depression, etc and all kinds of mental and/or power/love issues. I'm not saying that everyone is mentally ill, but this is a fallen world. So, giving anyone absolute rule. In addition, the Bible speaks of the man sacrificing himself as Jesus did for the church as the woman submits. But there are more sermons about women submitting than about men sacrificing themselves. Lastly, the proverb 31 woman is a whole chapter on what a perfect wife is. She rules the finances of her house, for instance. She makes decisions on ordering the house. She does many things that patriarchy would not allow her to do. Patriarchy is a good ideal if we all were sane. But even though we are new creatures, there is no man out there (as there is no woman out there) who doesn't have vices such as pride, anger, judgmentalism, self-righteousness, willfulness, etc etc etc in his heart. To give anyone full rule over another person or a group of persons is balanced in the Bible by the husband being sacrificial. But if few churches give sermons on how to balance the sacrificial husband and the sacrificial wife, or the verses where parents are commanded not to provoke their children then we end up with all kinds of human cruelty using a church doctrine to build up the male self at the cost of human lives. All i will say about the purity culture is that it so often is about how the man wants to be seen as a father in his community. Very islamic in many ways to show his ownership of the women in his family...all about the man's reputation.
This is incredibly sad and heartbreaking. I personally do not think the problem lies in the framework but in the selfish person who abused his role, authority, and power. For a positive look on patriarchy and to see it’s rich beauty, I would encourage people to follow Family Teams and Jeremy Pryor. The way they empower their kids and honor them and call out their gifts as an integral member of the family who will pass on the legacy of the family is incredible.
Can you say a brief word about how empowering and honoring one's kids and recognizing their gifts, etc. is dependent on patriarchy? In other words, if there was a family of loving, supportive, and empowering communists, a lot of people wouldn't take that as an endorsement of communism.
@@KingoftheJuice18 I don’t think it inherently is, I was trying to point out how families can actually flourish within a patriarchal system when there are godly parents using authority in a humble way. I’m still learning about what patriarchy even means. I don’t think it needs to be thrown out with the bath water though given the cases where it was abused.
@@JonPagel Literally, patriarchy means rule by fathers. I accept rule by godly parents, but not rule by fathers, whether godly or not. Being male isn't a qualification for rulership.
![Cait West on her escape from Christian Patriarchy and being a "stay-at-home daughter" [Author Chats]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3_3v-1U0MTs/mqdefault.jpg)
![Cait West on her escape from Christian Patriarchy and being a "stay-at-home daughter" [Author Chats]](/img/tr.png)
Thank you for this excellent review, Joel. The one thing that I thought may have been underdeveloped was discussion of any reflections in the book about whether she understands strong patriarchy to be intrinsic to Christianity or an aberration from it. But maybe there weren't any.
Ok Juice, I think you need to start doing reviews. 😀
So, to answer your question.... From a historical perspective, Christianity began under the rule of the Roman Empire which was heavily patriarchal and so you have to believe that the culture of the day would have had an impact on the theology/interpretations of the early church. And that's kind of the way it is today.... Feminism, women's rights, and other aspects of our cultural milieu will have (and have had) an impact on society's interpretation of scripture. In fact, I think that the culture (or social imaginary as Charles Taylor puts it) has a major impact on many things, even Law and how it's interpreted. The US Supreme Court is a perfect example, but I don't want to get into that right now.
From a theological perspective, the OT definitely has men in the majority of leadership roles. Women like Deborah (Judges) and maybe Naomi (Ruth) seem to be exceptions to the rule here. But for the most part, a type of patriarchy is definitely prominent in my opinion although I am no OT scholar by any means. Maybe you could shine some light on that for me??? I am fascinated by the whole Adam/Eve help meet thing (ezer-neged)...
As for the NT, well, it presents a more nuanced view. Jesus’ interactions with women were often countercultural, showing them respect and dignity. Paul’s letters, which have been interpreted as supporting patriarchy, also contain the idea of equality. So IMO, there is definitely a theological basis for arguing that patriarchy is not intrinsic to Christianity. The core teachings, particularly those of Jesus, emphasize love, respect, and equality, allowing for interpretations that support equality.
And one last thought... Is a patriarchy necessarily a bad thing?
@@BillyBoy66 Hey, BB. Thanks for your comments. I'm considering starting my own channel; I mainly need to get over some of my tech ignorance....Patriarchy is a kind of sexism, a kind of belief that men are superior to women. A patriarchy, in theory, could be more or less benign, but it seems fundamentally flawed in principle: men are not in charge of women. I find it funny that many Christians who don't think Jews are the chosen people (anymore) still think men are the chosen sex.
Thank you.
In therapy, one sees narcissism, spectrum disorder, depression, etc and all kinds of mental and/or power/love issues. I'm not saying that everyone is mentally ill, but this is a fallen world. So, giving anyone absolute rule. In addition, the Bible speaks of the man sacrificing himself as Jesus did for the church as the woman submits. But there are more sermons about women submitting than about men sacrificing themselves. Lastly, the proverb 31 woman is a whole chapter on what a perfect wife is. She rules the finances of her house, for instance. She makes decisions on ordering the house. She does many things that patriarchy would not allow her to do. Patriarchy is a good ideal if we all were sane. But even though we are new creatures, there is no man out there (as there is no woman out there) who doesn't have vices such as pride, anger, judgmentalism, self-righteousness, willfulness, etc etc etc in his heart. To give anyone full rule over another person or a group of persons is balanced in the Bible by the husband being sacrificial. But if few churches give sermons on how to balance the sacrificial husband and the sacrificial wife, or the verses where parents are commanded not to provoke their children then we end up with all kinds of human cruelty using a church doctrine to build up the male self at the cost of human lives. All i will say about the purity culture is that it so often is about how the man wants to be seen as a father in his community. Very islamic in many ways to show his ownership of the women in his family...all about the man's reputation.
This is incredibly sad and heartbreaking.
I personally do not think the problem lies in the framework but in the selfish person who abused his role, authority, and power.
For a positive look on patriarchy and to see it’s rich beauty, I would encourage people to follow Family Teams and Jeremy Pryor. The way they empower their kids and honor them and call out their gifts as an integral member of the family who will pass on the legacy of the family is incredible.
Can you say a brief word about how empowering and honoring one's kids and recognizing their gifts, etc. is dependent on patriarchy? In other words, if there was a family of loving, supportive, and empowering communists, a lot of people wouldn't take that as an endorsement of communism.
@@KingoftheJuice18 I don’t think it inherently is, I was trying to point out how families can actually flourish within a patriarchal system when there are godly parents using authority in a humble way.
I’m still learning about what patriarchy even means. I don’t think it needs to be thrown out with the bath water though given the cases where it was abused.
@@JonPagel Literally, patriarchy means rule by fathers. I accept rule by godly parents, but not rule by fathers, whether godly or not. Being male isn't a qualification for rulership.
@@KingoftheJuice18 what do you think a godly rule of a father then looks like?
@@JonPagel The main problem with it is that it attempts to rule over the godly mother too, rather than to assume full partnership with her as equals.