Winchester's WSSM's: Is It A Total Fail?
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 вер 2024
- By popular request, here it is! The Winchester WSSMs along side other fine cartridges that you don't want to miss! I even bring out the A Bolt for a good look. Trying to find something different and fantastic for your next chambering? Watch this video to preview before you buy. I should tell you that the WSSM has a super short powder column. As a result there is almost complete powder burn in the chamber. If you learn something, or simply enjoy the video, please give it a like, subscribe, and join me on Patreon for more useful "tidbits"
/ usog
/ officialusog
www.paypal.com...
Music: www.bensound.com
After sighting in at 60 feet, I could easily cover 5 shots with a nickel ua-cam.com/users/postUgkxQt2uORDRfFOVSrO4idv4B90ThT6EOnEL ! Truly a pleasure to shoot! Scope was easy to adjust for eye relief. Only problem the varmints must have seen it delivered lol!Update: So impressed with shot groups at 30 yards I purchased a Hammers 3×9 with adjustable Objective scope! Now a true nail driver!
"Forgot to tell the deer" I haven't heard that in years. Really takes me back
Actually I found the 223 SSM heavy barrel can just edge the 220 Swift with hand loads. I have the light Winchester rifle also. It has the thinnest short barrel and shortest action you’ve ever seen. It weighs nothing to me even with a light scope. You’re right about combustion. It is more efficient, and the faster twist also increases pressure and velocity. I’ve never had any problems with any WSSM.
I'm an unapologetic pusher of the WSM's. For wide open prairie hunts I love the 270 wsm.
Ah yes, the “short magnums”. The solution for a problem that didn’t exist.
Good way to put it Craig
There was a problem: throats lasting too long.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns He was paraphrasing Col. Jeff Cooper who said that double action semi-auto pistols are "...a solution in search of a problem." In my opinion the same thing could be said about Col. Cooper's scout rifle concept.
@@bigredone1030 the wssms arnt barrel burners. I've owned the 243wssm for years. They all have chrome lined bores. It's just a misconception everyone keeps repeating.
Jawohl!
I wound up going with the 7mm08 cause all I ever use a rifle for is whitetail hunting. And I don't want a lot of recoil.
It’s a great round. The .260 Remington is another. You made a great choice.
7mm08 is my favorite all around long range cartridge, especially for deer hunting. Excellent choice.
The 7mm-08 for deer is a stellar choice!
Great round! I had a remington 788
Works for me too 😁
I’m an old curmudgeon give me my 6.55 Swede for whitetail. I have a Swede in a C prefix Rem 700 that is insanely accurate & that cartridge hits harder than it should. Another great video!👍
I'm more of a curmudgeon than you. I use a Winchester 94 30-30 for deer. And anything else.
Great ctg and fne accuracy ..
There's nothing in North America that can't be taken with the old 30/06 or many of the fine old cartridges of the last 100 years.
I try to keep my # of guns at around 100 and just couldn't
see a "need" for a WSM. I don't see anything wrong with a
270 or 30 WSM tho but am leery of feeding.
Someone above mentioned using a 7-08 for bears. If I was
going after one of the big boys I would feel better with a 338.
I'd prefer to kill 'em deader, as it were.
I'm 78 and have been buying guns for over 60 years so that's
why I have so damn many. Problem is finding time to shoot
them.
I already owned an A-Bolt II in .243 when the .243 WSSM came out. I jumped on board. Now, many years later I still have and love my .243 A-Bolt II. The A-Bolt in .243WSSM has long since been gone. You couldn’t give ‘em away and I’ve never missed it. My A-Bolt BOSS in .243 is still the most accurate out-of-the-box rifle that I own. Accuracy with factory ammo is beyond my ability to consistently take advantage of.
Hey look!! 350 Legend...in a semiauto platform!!! Ohhh....wait, Winchester did that in 1907....
Love your content, really appreciate your upbeat and open minded take on your subject material. Thank you so much for all that you do!!!
@Art Anson The whole reason behind the .350 Legend is simply as time has passed laws in some states have changed, and Winchester wanted to release a modern straight walled cartridge with good medium game performance but lower recoil. So there was basically a market now that didn't really exist 100 years ago. The fact that it also fits into a AR platform is great for hunters in those restricted states.
So they didn't make it for any kind of super ballistics, or target shooting. Just a moderate recoil, straight wall cartridge to meet state laws in specific area's.
Interesting video, I enjoyed it.
Myself I just don’t get most of these cartridges. I think they exist not because they are that much better but because they are marketed to those that think they will make a difference
Realistically you probably only “need” a 30 06 and maybe a .223. ...of course that wouldn’t be much fun!
Well, a lot of modifications are for something to sell, but a lot are also from wildcatters and shooters trying to keep pushing the envelope. Short and fat does seem to hold up in the benchrest community. Between benchrest shooters and varminters I think the never ending push to modify and create slight different cases is quite amazing.
Do you need it? No. But that’s not what it’s about.
I tend to agree with you but I would change the list of long guns to:
30-06
12 gauge shotgun
.22 bolt gun
With those 3 you have everything covered.
My opinion of course. And like you said, having just 3 guns would not be much fun!
12 Ga,
300 win mag
243
223
22 mag
But why stop there.
I feel the firearm is as much of the equation, too. If I hunt a field for coyote, .223 Rem, for deer the 30-06, waterfowl I use a 12 gauge, upland birds is a 20 gauge, the .410 bore covers squirrels and rabbits. I have taken rabbits with a .22 long rifle handgun. I chose a .25 WSSM AR-15 for long range shooting coyotes on a open hillside. If I hunt in brush, I carry a .44 Mag carbine. Each is chosen for a specific task that it serves best.
Long actions really only justify themselves if you absolutely need a magnum cartridge that won't fit inside a SA, and there are about a dozen SA cartridges that will match or exceed their legacy 6.5mm, 7mm, and .300 Magnum predecessors, while allowing longer ogive projectiles to be loaded within their SA COLs.
One older cartridge that still stays within 2.800" COL with some of the longest bullets available for it is the 6.5 Rem Mag, well ahead of its time.
.284 Winchester was ahead of its time, but doesn't stay within 2.800" when you load more modern high BC projectiles in it.
6.5 Phantom (Lazzeroni)
6.5 PRC
.270 WSM
6.8 Western
.277 SIG Fury
7mm WSM
7mm RSAUM
7mm Tomahawk (Lazzeroni)
.30 Patriot Lazzeroni
.300 WSM
.300 RSAUM
.338 RCM
Then there are the 3 small bore WSSM cartridges:
.223 WSSM
.243 WSSM
.257 WSSM (bites the heels of .25-06 but from 2.350" COL, extremely efficient little bugger)
Wildcats off the WSSM include:
* 6.5 WSSM (performs like a .260 AI)
* 7mm Micro (195gr Berger EOL at 2650fps from 23" barrel, devastating on steel in matches and sub MOA out to 1 mile)
* 30 OSSM developed by Olympic Arms pushing a 150gr at 3000fps from an AR-15 micro action (.30-06 performance that small youths can comfortably shoot)
There are definitely some advantages to the short, high efficiency cases over the early 1900s long propellant column staples. A light, compact rifle with less bolt throw are 2 of the main edges they have over the older long actions with inefficient propellant mass geometry and inconsistent burn properties from those long columns.
Agreed. I've said for years that every practical need a hunter could have, there was a cartridge for by 1925. Most needs covered before that, but by '25 there were almost no practical gaps left in the selection.
The only things missing were modern bullet construction and modern optics
100%
I’ve always like CRF Winchester’s and their 3 position safety’s. I really love their lever actions, model 86 and 92. So with that I’ve always wanted Winchester calibers. 243, 264, 270, 284, 300, 338, 458... i also like shooting the Short Mags and the Super Short Mags.... flat and fast. People complain about burning up barrels but if you can afford to shoot that much and enjoy hot loads, new barrels are just a part of it.
"Somebody forgot to tell the deer..." Lol! 😂 Seems to happen a lot these days... It's a wonder that our ancestors didn't starve to death with all of those 'inadequate' hunting tools!
When I was going through school(Colorado school of Trades) back in the mid 80's. We had 2 trains of thought, there was the hyper velocity guys and the rainbow trajectory guys who loved big and penetration. Me, I was a lover of efficient cartridges getting the most out of the powder burnt was my nitch. The gun companies have come up with new stuff but mostly rolling right over what we always have had. there is only a couple hundred fps between most similar cartridges and some of that can be negated with short or long barrels.
Well put. Only so many ways to do the same thing. : )
I think we have essentially already hit the peak of what we can do with shooting lead down a barrel with highly pressurized fire. Essentially, new cartridges are the same thing but slightly different shapes or sizes so they can sell the new rifle, but often times they will put some new type of powder into the factory rounds that isn't available to reloaders, which is what gets the new and "better" cartridge more velocity rather than the cartridge design itself.
@@BloodiedYetUnbowed you pretty much got the picture. They may come up with a few reruns but essentially they are the same.
@@HD-ph1dc Yup, they're really only making any advancments in powder these days
I disagree. 408 and 375 cheytac were game changers in medium bore ultra long range silhouette
Great videos! I ve been hunting for 48 years. I love the outdoors and enjoy marksmanship and all things shooting. Keep on podcasting. Cheers and happy new year.
Love my 25 WSSM and 7mmWSM.. super accurate...but I also believe in superior optics.
Please do a video of your drilling’s! It’s high time!
You can never lose us along the way :]
Great video!
My cartridge tastes have always been 'african' in spirit. Heavy bullets and long powder columns. I have a competition rifle in a squat high b.c cartridge that feels laser focused, but it just doesn't have the same charm or appeal to me.
I would much rather take a 9.3x62, 375 H&H or even an 8x68s out hunting before I took a 6x47 or one of the SAUM cartridges. I suppose its the romanticism that people have for certain stories and ideas.
Thanks for your presentation. I can't speak to the WSSM cartridges but do enjoy the 25-06 and 6.5 cartridges. These are good flat shooters. I have an early 1940 vintage Swede M96 in full military configuration and just purchased the Creedmoor. To me, a big plus for the Creedmoor is high BC and sectional densities. For me one of the best performing .22 rounds is the 22-250.
Btw, that A bolt rifle is nifty.
I had the same vapor trail experience with the .220 Swift. It was likewise humid, about 70 degrees in the desert outside of Tucson in the winter. It seemed as if the trail would originate mid-range and connect the rifle to the target in an instant. It was kind of mesmerizing! My favorite 6.5 is the 6.5 Grendel. I finished load development two weeks ago for the deer season this fall. It was 129 grain Nosler Accubond Long Range at 2618 average FPS. The rifle shoots 5 shots repeatedly into an inch at 100 yards. I lazed a rock about 12" in diameter at 620 yards and with the Nikon BDC scope was able to hit it 3-4 shots in a row. A very trim and effective CZ 527! Can't wait till October!
I have a friend that struggles with shooting accurately and therefore has trouble sighting in a rifle. He purchased an A bolt when they first came out in 223wssm and asked me to zero it for him. I have never shot a more accurate riffle, out of the box, with factory ammo! At 100yds it shot ragged holes, might add that I was having a rare good day also lol! Out to 300, you wouldn't believe me if I told you! If I had not been so heavily invested in 22-250 I would have gotten one for myself. It's still his go to coyote riffle. He shoots a bit better thees days also! I threw that in for he might watch your videos 😂
9
You nailed it at 13:36. Marketeers are trying to reinvent the wheel to sell, to keep their jobs, and justifiably so.
I bought the Winchester featherweight in the .223 WSSM and absolutely love it. With factory Silvertips, it shoots 1" five shot groups at 200 yards out of skinny barrel. The muzzle velocity is a blistering 3700 fps with 55 grain bullets! I hand loaded to the same velocity with even tighter groups. The downside is that it didn't feed reliably, but I bought for ground hogs and rarely need a follow-up shot. I love this cartridge!
Me too. Incredible cartridge. I have the .223 WSSM and a .243 WSSM extra barrel in stainless. So fast and accurate - remarkable. You're one of the few that has one and knows. Cheers.
@UnitedStatesOfGuns I was thinking the same thing, lol! She's a little spark plug! It's hard to believe that we don't hear much about this little gem. My buddy had a .243 that was devastating on ground hogs. The 'ol .223 just paper punched (just as dead though). The .223 WSSM turned 'em inside out!
I have a 6.5 Grendel on a AR 15 platform and love it plan on deer hunting with it within 200 yds it is super accurate
I have a 223 WSSM in an A-bolt with the BOSS on the barrel. The barrel is chrome lined and shoots extremely accurately. However, it heats up very fast. I took it prairie dog hunting and after only 5-6 quick shots the barrel was so hot it would probably start paper on fire.
@Rom vin really? It was sold as chrome lined. I’ll have to check into that.
@Rom vin Well, I just checked into it. Mine is chrome lined. It's an composite stalker in 223 WSSM. Apparently Browning chrome lined these to save barrel life and prevent throat erosion on these hot WSSM cartridges. Check it out. Just do a search on it and you can find out the info.
@Rom vin Well, now I see you are just arguing or mad for some reason. What is the point of you making these insults? It won't change the fact that you are incorrect about the chrome lined barrel.
I have a Browning A Bolt in 243 WSSM. Very nice package and excellent on deer but very hard to find ammo for. Winchester still makes a little 243 WSSM but dealers tell me it take a long time to get it. Really got into the WSM thing and also bought a 300 and 270 WSM. No complaints with any of them. Ammo for the 300 and 270 is easy to find.
I find that really strange. I have no problem getting it here in NZ it just costs a fortune!
Another great video. I have the .25 caliber WSSM A Bolt and thoroughly enjoy it. I find the recoil fairly mild and the accuracy is excellent. Hand loads are the only option so these chamberings are not for everyone.
I have an A-Bolt in .243 WSSM and it works just fine for deer, bear, and coyotes which is all I need it to do.
Can you find ammo for it? My buddy has trouble finding brass for it. Otherwise he loves it.
I also have one here in NZ in the model 70 and love it. Awesome cartridge!
This is a great video! I used to have a 223WSSM and it is wicked flat. I was actually getting 4400 on some very high pressure handloads. I used crushed unfrosted corn flakes to compress the load and it actually worked well. I am very much in agreement with the claims of accuracy improvement in having fat stubby rounds. All I need to do is look at the 6br to know that 😁. Anyway, I knew the day was soon approaching that the barrel would get burned out but it took quite a bit longer than I expected. Now the rifle is under the ownership of a friend.
I have always questioned the wisdom of short necked cartridges. In many cases the heavier bullets, being longer, have to be seated so that the base of the bullet protrudes into the powder column. When the cartridge is fired, and knowing how expanding gases seek the path of least resistance there is a problem.
Rather than concentrating the pressure wave on the base of the bullet, an amount of gas attempts to expand past the base and ends up trapped at the neck of the cartridge where it spikes the pressure wave and results in increased felt recoil and bolt thrust. There was a reason that early bottle neck cartridges such as the 30/06 and many others had long necks.
Smith Wesson valid points indeed. Could one work around would be to decrease the seating depth and machine the chamber throat deeper to maintain the same freebore length between the ogive to the lands? Then begin to work up the powder charge closer to case capacity?
Options are fun although I mostly hunt with a .30-06, and a .444 marlin
Short of elephants and dinosaurs, I agree with you. Those cartridges just get the job done.
Not a fail at all; I love my .223 WSSM in a Camo Ultimate Stainless. The stock is super grippy, the stainless is beautiful against the camo stock, no recoil and very accurate. I wish the barrel were 24" or maybe even 26" for less muzzle blast, but this is easy to carry and I love it. Did I already say that? :)
Hello, good day, I just bought a similar rifle and I have not used it. I have read many bad opinions about many who say that the barrel is damaged after 500 shots and that it is a problem to get ammunition I would like to know your opinion and an apology for my bad English greetings from Mexico....!!
@@gerardoalejandroortizvelaz4222 No more damage than .22-250 or .220 Swift. As long as you don't get the barrel hot from shooting too quickly.
So you think it was a good choice to go hunting a couple of times a year? Thank you very much for taking the time to respond I send you a greeting from Nuevo Laredo Mexico brother
Uppossss sorry for say brother you know my English is so bad jajajaja really sorry for it
@@gerardoalejandroortizvelaz4222 You should go hunting as often as you want with your rifle. If you are shooting at targets just don't get the barrel hot.
300 wsm is one of my favorites for deer in the rifle (Northern) section of Michigan.
300WSM is my go to rifle. Good on deer and elk, I have shot several deer and elk past 600 yards with Barnes 168 ttsx bullets. It is a winning combo.
I got one, a Winchester M-70 god I must have it for almost 20 years. I never warmed up to it. I guess it started with the crooked chamber, so I had it re-barreled, it shot ok but It's pretty much a safe queen. Some guys like it I guess, I am thinking about re-barreling again but to 270 WSM. Where I live, all the deer fall just fine to my 6.5 x 55 and 7 x 57. Heck, my even older Marlin 336 in 30-30 Winchester still puts venison on the ground without much fuss.
I was enamored by the 300wsm for a while. Looking at wsm,wssm,and the remington mags,I came to the conclusion it was just a tactic to sell more guns,none of them really stand out or fill any niche not already filled. And obscurity of caliber makes FACTORY ammo pricey and hard to find. I think I will stick by my tried and true old 06's and be happy.
Hi Paul - Wise words and thoughts. The '06 can do it all.
paul moss what more does a man need than a 30-06 hr needs a 25-06 and a 35 Whelen. All bases covered up to very dangerous game African type. All based off of the 30-06 .
@@christinamoneyhan5688 Well I can sure agree with that. I have a whole suitcase of boxed once fired federal premium brass. Nice to hear a lady shooter in the know. Cheers!
paul moss , thank you for the compliment. I been around and shooting firearms since 10 years old. I am now 69 and shot all pretty much with the exception of the 416 ‘s and up. A person has got to know there limitations. 375 H&H is as large as I care for however, I do really like the 35 Whelen or the 444 Marlin for the reasonable distances they were designed to be used. I do have and use a 300 Weatherby when called for the extra ranges of possible shots. Sorry to say age is now catching up fast and my gritty up is waning. I mostly shoot small calibers and sporting clays now days. Not complaining, I had a very good run in my time . Deer ,bear, caribou, antelope, turkeys, squirrels, rabbits, pheasant and no complaints. Hope you can keep enjoying the shooting , hunting , and camaraderie of like minded sportsmen.
I have Always been a Big fan of the 22-250!
Great round WT - does it all.
Great varmint round. Biggest problem is burning out throats. One of our big LGS refuses to take a 22-250 in trade until one of the gunsmiths runs their hi-def scope down the bore. Too many people burn them out then try to dump them off on trades.
Mike, the science you describe and speak of with the various short and super-short magnums may be spot on but they disappeared as soon as they were introduced.
Of all of the WSM and WSSM calibers, only the 270 and 300 WSM's are still on the shelves, at least for my neck of the woods. Of all of my hunting friends, only one owned a WSM 300... He sold it due to the recoil. Within my 20 or 25 hunting buddies, no one owns a WSM, they all own 243, 270, 7RM, 30-30, 308, 30-06, and 300WM rifles. Mostly 270 & 30-06. It seems that Winchester may have done too good a job with some of their previous cartridges for the pleathra of shorts and super-shorts to take hold.
I think it would have been wiser for Winchester to have introduced only the 270 and 300 WSM's and brought more online as the concept was accepted. Winchester should have gotten everyone to use those two without confusing and overrunning the market. If either Winchester or Browning decides to reintroduce these, pick only one and get people hooked on the concept.
Great idea, horrendous marketing strategy and sales campaign though.
Not the first time Winchester's head honchos and number crunchers have totally misunderstood the market.
Great video! Be well.
On the look out for a good deal on a used A-bolt to add to my collection. Found my first Rem 700 at a gun show about two months ago. A little work and it is shooting .60 groups at 100 yards with cheap Federal hunting rounds. I am just coming around to the Bolt action shooting and collecting. As I get older, I appreciate the slower paced shooting sometimes. Enjoy your videos, keep it up.
I remember a day I was out shooting my draganov in damp weather. It wasn’t raining, but the air must have been saturated and something to do with dew point something or other. Every shot I took left the rifle, scope, my glasses, hands and clothes covered in water. I could dry everything off and it all happened again with the next shot. Had it not been for the instantly condensed water on the scope lenses, I might also have seen vapor trails from the bullet path.
Another great note James
I have an all stainless A bolt in 223WSSM and its a tack driver. I like that little thing a lot. Its right up there with the 220 Swift. A little faster that the 22-250
Glad to hear from someone that owns one! Not many people do - or they're not on the channel. I find the same for mine - amazing accuracy. I wish I had your stainless model - good on you.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns I load for mine and at the moment use 45 and 55 grain bullets from Nosler in it that I get to 3980 for the 55 grain and 4460 with the 45 grainers . I want to try some in 70 grain and see if the rifle will stabilize them as it would make a light and handy deer rifle with those.
Excellent episode, thanks for posting!!
The only one i fired was a Winchester in 223 wssm. Only a few shots at the range but was hitting the 10 ring at 200m. Never really caught on in Australia. You xan buy the Winchester rifles in 223 wssm very cheap now. I notice you have a lot of RWS factory ammo. I've got a few packets myself of the 9.3x74R. I intend to swap them for gold bars if our exchange rate falls any lower agsinst the green back. Thanks for sharing.
Model 70 Coyote in .223WSSM
In Australia, I use Bertram brass and 50Gn Taipan HP for Professional Shooting superb knock down power
I have a Browning A-Bolt in .243 WSSM with no ammo and no cases to reload...not that I really want to anyway. Shot part of a box of 95gr years ago and decided it recoiled more than I like in that caliber. Never shot it again and gave away the rest of the box of ammo to a collector friend. Always thought about getting it re-barreled but here it is about 10 yrs on and it's still just like I left it about 10 yrs ago.
Do you want to sell it ??
I have a A bolt in 223WSSSM in the stainless version and shoot the berger copper bullets in 40 grain at 4400Ft/sec with excellent accuracy for such a light rifle. It is a joy to carry and coyotes hate the thing. Changing to the 55 grain TSX, it turns it into a nice white tail rifle for walking in the woods.
Thanks for writing! Not many know how fine the WSSMs are. 4400! Amazing
Monolithic copper bullets have done wonders for speedy rounds like the 223 WSSM / 220 Swift etc. They are a little longer for their weight and thus improve the bullet BC and they hold together will when they get where they are going yet expand sufficiently to cause a good wound channel. Just my two cents and probably not even worth that much. I do enjoy your videos
This was a great video even for you USOG. You got a few things wrong though I would like to correct. The 223 WSSM is actually faster than the 22-250 by about 400fps at max loads and is actually the twin of another superb ancient cartrage, the .220 Swift. I am a life long .220 Swift guy and it really is the best of the .224's for a number of reasons (semi rimmed, perfect feed, FPS!!!,). It got a bad wrap from a bunch of fools who did not know how to use it properly. I like the WSSM's as well and own a .243 WSSM which I think is the best of the 3. They work fine and feed ok although I would not call them smooth and they require a special bolt head and only some actions will accommodate their size (a-bolt, mod 70, ar-15).
Also your producer is so wrong the more bullets the better I wish you would bring them all out, but you did well to pick the ones you did, the 9.3x72r is an awesome old gun round and I really love the 444 marlin that is the "Modern" incarnation of that type of round.
The special bullet the person was telling you about getting super high (4400+) Velos with is the GS drive band bullet. They are legit and I have seen my chrono spit numbers beginning with 5 off certain GS hand loads with one of my Swifts. Check out their website if your into that kind of thing.
Always love your vids show us more :)
The obscure 225 win is my favorite 22. It was pushing the wssm 223 velocity a very long time ago. They are a barrel burner tho . Some say only 4-6 thousand pounds per barrel. I suppose it would be a great chambering for a Smith who could re- drill the barrel and size it up for the next larger one with same Cass. 225 HP boat tails blow a dime sized hole in AR 500 at 100 yards.
I bought a model 70 coyote special when they came out with these cartridges, it bedded floating bull barrel, should have been a tack driver in 223 wssm, but it shot so bad with factory ammo i almost threw it in the river. I frigged and frigged and found a handload, 43 grains imr 4350 and 62 grain barnsx, now a coyote is in trouble at 500, shoots the same hole at 100 yards!
I have the a bolt in stainless with a boss in 243 wssm hands down most accurate riflei have ever owned no recoil but like a howitzer when it goes off. I have a model 70 in 25 wssm I have never fired it . My model 70 in 300 wsm shoots great though.
I've had exactly the same experience with mine. Even if I was offered twice what I paid for it I wouldnt sell it.
I have both the 9,3x72 and the 9,3x74 on my desk. There is a lot of difference between them. My late uncle’s Drilling was 9,3x72 and 16-gauge double barrels above that. A very nice German bring back from WWII.
Thanks Ron - that's for sure. I love shooting the 9.3x72R ; the 9.3x74R can be a fire breathing dragon in a light rifle - as I'm sure you know. The drilling has to be a gem. All the best.
Thank you for all the great content.
I think the first commercial cartridge I remember to go short and fat is the .284 Winchester. The concept really did not catch on too well in the USA. When it did it was a flood. I remember calling SAAMI for chamber drawings on the 6.5-06 and he told me he would send them, but they were only submitted and not approved yet . He sent me a pile of new chamber specs that had not been approved because they could not test them fast enough. In my opinion, many of these cartridges will fall to the side. Another good video. This is the kind of stuff that gets talked about around a deer camp fire.
The .284 : ) How could I forget one for the video. Thanks for the reminder. I keep my .284 Model 100 because that round in that rifle is bolt action accurate. Take care OG
This may not be available to you in Canada, but there are companies in the States that offer AR uppers in the WSSM cartridges.
I have a model 70 in 243wssm. 243 wssm is one of my favorite rounds to deer hunt with and I’ve killed deer with both 243win and 243wssm and there’s a big difference in knock down power and long range knockdown power between the two. I love it and it’s a shame that it’s not readily available. The wssm’s will also fit in an ar action and I think it would have been popular if it was made mainstream
Hi Kevin - I think they are fantastic as well. I have the .223 wssm and 243 wssm.
I lijke the short magnum and super short magnum.
There's some nice .25 bullets now for the 25 wssm.
I'm a big fan of 7m SUAM as well and think Winchester and remington did the shorties a disservice.
Quarter Bore ! Shocking results !
Please do a video on 22 magnum. I'm liking the cz512. I carry a model 94 30-30 as a prospector but as far as predator control goes, a 22 mag might serve me well and be lighter.
Great idea les! Thank you for the suggestion!
0:49 poor guy was grinding gears there for a second
I like the WSM cartridge. I don't like the cost of the Ammo So, I've ordered dies for my press. Thanks for the nice video.
I saw so many rounds I'd never heard of before so I was compelled to watch this. Maybe some good double sided tape would help with keeping the rounds standing up?
If You have no problems with your rifles then that probably means that You keep them well maintained and serviced , and replace worn or damaged parts when problems occur .
Congratulations on an excellent channel & obviously exemplairy rifle care .
My knowledge of the WSSMs is gleaned from a single article in Gun Digest several years ago. My contention with the short magnum series is that, in my experience with the 300 WSM, they don't chamber nearly as smoothly as conventional cartridges. In fact, my Remington 700 wouldn't feed the first cartridge from a full (3 shot) magazine, as the top round was staggered on the right side of the action and the stubby ammo wouldn't negotiate the crossover with the magazine spring pressure. I installed an aftermarket four shot floor plate, problem solved, as the first round from a full magazine was now straight line into the chamber, and the second staggered round no longer had to contend with a fully compressed magazine spring and could make the angled path to the barrel. Likely a problem that wouldn't have cropped up with a single column design like a Savage 10.
Hi Shawn - I agree - there were experimental cartridges around 1900 that I saw in a museum in Europe - quite short - and none made it into production. The advantages of the long, slender cartridges such as the .270 etc... remain, and as you wrote - slick feeding is one of those advantages. Of course, short powder columns have their place but no point having a great cartridge that won't chamber. Thanks for the note.
How on earth is a 9.3x72r not legal for deer?
Brendon Burns it’s to small...
@@WILDBOYZ how?
I thought the same thing. It can't be too small, it' was a dangerous game cartridge
Yeah it looks like it's in the ballpark of the 350 legend and 375 winchester, should be pretty slick for deer if you got decent bullets.
Government involved
I know people love some of the wizzums, but I enjoy classic rifle calibers. I think .270 win is becoming my go to rifle.
Love my 270 if all your hunting is deer and other similar sized your golden
My buddy has a 243 wssm and honestly I love shooting it and a few pigs are down because of them. I know he has shot 8 deer with it so far since his grandpa gave it to him.
It's a great round Christopher - not many people know. All the best.
Another interesting video sir 👍 , for better ignition of powder in a given charge I’ve always experimented with duplexing for complete powder ignition ,, working with combinations is the key to success Generalized reloading works but experimentation with many factors is what makes a particular cartridge supreme as a opposed to another , bullet jump and using the right projectile in weigh and length matched to Appropriate twist rate of the barrel , almost any cartridge can be king if tweaked properly . PS. Thank you sir for all the fabulous videos that you present for our knowledge and enjoyment 👍
Thank you for the info. Johannes and the kind words : )
I like the 6.5 creedmoor for the flat shooting it manages with minimal recoil with small Texas white tail- at no more than 100 yards. Usually much closer. Just a fun little round for SMALL-ish game.
Anything else, I’m a 30-06 fan all the way.....
The throat in my 223 WSSM was gone in just under 400 rounds
You’re a stud. Keep up the good work. Thank you for your efforts.
Thanks for another.really informative video. You mentioned your preference for the 25/06 caliber. I think it s one of the underutilized and unappreciated calibers available. You d think to take the spotlight away from the 257 Roberts more would use it. I stopped hunting years ago. I became aware of and interested in precision target shooting a few years ago and thought that would be something I'd like to get involved in when I retire.
Been that way 2.5 years and have two rifles chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor.
I d like to get your opinion on why no one has worked with the 25/06 and the potential I feel it has in this type shooting.
If a long high BC bullet that was 120 or higher gr was available or made and a barrel with a twist rate that could stabilize that bullet I believe this caliber could be successful at 500 to 1000 yd competitions. I think as a hunting round at least here in SE United States it s had to live with it s popular cousin the 270 Win. being on top. That is a very good caliber on deer but a few have and prefer the quarter bore.
With the right long range bullet who knows.....
Hi Sammy - I agree - the 25-06 mystery continues; an amazing performer. I like your idea of a 25 cal. with a high rate of twist and 125 or so grain bullets. BC and sectional density would be quite high - that quarter bore has always been slippery. I guess no one has done it yet - or not promoted. Maybe a 25/65. Creedmoor is out there somewhere. Good shooting and take care.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns I wish I had known about all this back in 1975 when I was deciding on what and where about college. I'd would have gone for machinery then a good gun smiting school. I couldn t imagine having a profession like Kenny Jerrett ( if you aren't already familiar with his rifles check his website) But George Gardner ( G A Precision) or Preston Pritchett @ Surgeon rifles) .
Would be a dream job.
Maybe one day someone will see and think that round. It sure pushes hunting rounds efficiently.
Thanks
Nice I Wish I Had an Action That I Could Assemble And Have That .243 WSSM Barrel You Have On That Would Make an Awesome Scout Rifle 👌🏼😊😎👍🏼 Thanks For Sharing USOG 😊😊😊
That would be sweet as they say - good to hear from you Chris.
I tested and fired numerus WSSM over my 40 years as a Gunsmith. And when it's all said and done it was simply an answer in search of a question that had been answered long before by standard length cartridges of the same caliber at far less cost and trouble. May nephew bought a Sako in 270 WSSM in an injected molded stock. While very accurate it was an absolute misery to fire due to the high frequency vibration (Buzz) sent through the stocks check piece with each round. The same velocities the Sako achieved and higher can be attained using a .270 Winchester for roughly half the cost. When a rifle in any WSSM is twice to three times more expensive as is the ammunition for no gain, why should anyone bother
Hi DitzyDoo, Good comment. People still like the WSMs though - plenty of mail to me about especially the .300 WSM and the .270 WSM. I still own the .325 WSM which a lot of people say is the weirdest of all the WSMs. I also have the .223 WSSM and the .243 WSSM - which are also redundant but quite interesting. I guess these types of things are good for the industry, economy and jobs - so I don't mind : )
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Yes it pretty much was just the latest flavor of the month in the gun industry, always trying for the next trend in firearms. But much like the .204 Ruger when it came out the question still remained for most. Why? but again that is the nature of the gun world. Try and stir the pot nd see what comes of it.
13:30
"Most of the secrets of firearms were figured out around the 1900's..."
Correct!
Short actions & flat trajectories Vs penetration & knockdown power...
I'll stick with a *lower pressure* straight walled cartridge! 😎
Why is is called straight walled? Because it doesn't have a rim?
@@alicetries5954 Straight walled cartridges are ones like on the right at 4:00 and those are rimmed at the base. The rest of the cartridges at 4:00 are "necked down (bullet thinner than the case)" and are rimless.
I have winchester 70 in 243 wssm is awesome
Thanks Michael - I find the 243 WSSM an incredible performer.
I've seen the same trails in south Florida swamps or cane fields. As a side note the .22lr in thoes conditions drop below sound barrier. And humidity makes a .22lr sound like a bb gun on 2 pumps lol that's quite for thoes who dont get the 2 pump bb gun reference
Hi Mike. I also lament the demise of the Browning A Bolt 11 rifle. I own four of them (in the Medallion and Stainless Stalker model) from .223 (which incidentally is the same action length that they used for the WSSM line of cartridges) up to .338 Win Mag. The discontinuation of the A Bolt 11 was in part to help bolster the sales of the X Bolt (which initially didn't take off but now is one of the most popular hunting rifles on the market) and to introduce the Browning AB3 to compete with other economy rifles such as the Winchester XPR and the Remington 783.
I love how you have arranged the set up on your table with parent cartridges to the WSM's and WSSM's. One of the WSM's that came out also was the 7mmWSM which equaled the velocity of the 7mm Rem Mag in a shorter action/lighter rifle. Here in Australia The WSSM calibres never really gained much market share. In order to move them, Winchester Australia dropped the price of the rifles by almost 50%. That way people were then bound to buy the factory ammunition which was never cheap. Ammunition is still available in our gun shop here in Melbourne for all three WSSM's but for what you can pay for the parent rounds in .223 and 243 in bulk means that they just sit on the shelf. Thank you for sharing!
Very informative - I should visit Melbourne and get the ammo : ) I realize the economics may not be there or the simplicity - but a great reason to visit your super country. As for the WSSMs - judging by all the mail - people are interested but have something similar that they are happy with. I guess it is a bunch of things that make a cartridge successful or not - and the WSSMs just didn't get enough things in line. Cheers.
Have one i bought in mod.70 stainless laminated bull barrel. I almost threw it away until ibstarted reloading for it. Im more of a hunter then a target shooter, so i have found that barns x 63 grain in mine. Its accurate and when you sqeeze the trigger coyotes hit the dirt. Even out to 500 yards. Just my findings hope it helps.
Thats funny the exact same thing happened to me with the exact same rifle..lol, and i reloaded the exact same round....to funny. I shot a coyote at 484 yards......dirt nap!!
My favorite 6.5mm cartridge is the 6.5x53.5Rmm. Found only in the Dutch adopted Mnnnlicher designed M1905 rifle.
Here is something I find interesting for certain. The 6.5x54mmMS, the 6.5x52mm Carcano, the 6.5x50mm Arisaka and the aforementioned Dutch round are identical in the body and neck within manufacturing tolerances. One must note the heads are the same dimeter, except the extraction element varies. The Mannlicher Schonauer and the Carcano are both rimless in the normal sense. The Dutch cartridge is conventionally rimmed and the Arisaka is 'semi-rimmed'.
Most all of the 'new' cartridges are merely a retake with slight modifications to old cartridges. Witness the heritage of the 7x57mm Mauser in the .280 Remington, .284 Winchester, 7mm-08 and Lord only knows what else. And so on...
30-06 is my favorite round
Probably the single best cartridge. I've used it on everything and never felt lacking.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns holy heck, thanks for replying man. I hunt a lot and I've found that 30-30 and 30-06 are probably my favorite rounds.
I believe the Winchester/Browning super short, Howa mini, CZ 527 micro are the only sub-short action centerfire bolt guns. The Win/Bro is a 60° bolt and Howa/CZ are 90° bolts.
I'd like to rebarrel an A-Bolt WSSM action to 6.5 Grendel. PTG will custom build a Browning bolt head to any rim diameter. I prefer the look of the A-Bolt over the X-Bolt.
I like your idea. I still have a wssm Browning; I should consider a custom barrel as well. Thanks for the note!
I have a Browning X Bolt in 325 WSM. I like the rifle and the cartridge, but the ammunition isn’t so easy to come by. I no longer shoot it, but it’s very accurate and very deadly on bear.
Hi Laughing Dog - I'm close to buying a 325 - hard to find an 8mm cartridge other than the 8x57, 8x68 and my 8x58R Rolling Block.
I can well remember when I was looking for a Winchester with a classic action chambered in a classic caliber and everyone I ever picked up in a shop was always chambered in a WSM cartridge and I would ask myself “how many of these blooming things did they make?”
I saw one in .257 Roberts, brand new at cabelas 2 years ago. I couldn't justify spending $1200 on it. But yeah, I know what you mean. Winchester and browning rifles that looked like runway models, all chambered in Winchester short magnum calibers. I don't think that the 7mm wsm sold all that well though. Cheers!
@@ryanharris6045 bad as I wanted one, I just couldn’t spend the kind of money that was being asked for the few Ruger rifles stamped .275 Rigby. It was the old British name for the 7x57 Mauser!
The 223 WSSM:
Is it necessary? No.
Is it a solution in search of a problem? Perhaps.
Is it cool? YES!!!!
Personally, I’m completely happy with my 223 for deer and coyote, and I can kill anything on 4 legs with a 7.62x54R from my Mosin Nagant (which I bought for 98 dollars in 2011!), but some guns are practical while others are just fun.
.264 Winchester magnum 1959 . Based on the venerable Holland & Holland cordite cases of old.
Propellent variables as well as projectiles can make for an interesting study in barrel design and construction. Ballistics both interior and exterior of a particular bullet profile, material, and weight all to be considered. Generally if a group of three are touching or same hole at 100 yards you’ve got satisfactory accuracy.
100 grain bullet. 3510 feet per second. 140grain 3200 feet per second.
The DuPont IMR powder lineup should have a burn rate characteristic to provide desired balance of performance and accuracy. Bullets of hunting or target should show good results.
As far a as action length I think it’s more of bean counter thing for cost per unit.
My model 70 Winchester in 300 H&H has never bothered me in length of bolt travel. A more than adequate round for most hunting situations. Respectable performance of the old design is just fine for me. It is a super grade with long barrel and iron sights. Scope equipped with both rifle and scope of 1948 manufacturer.
Brilliant rifle and excellent comments on accuracy.
USOG could you by any chance tell me where I can purchase shells for my 25wssm I can't find them anywhere your help would be greatly appreciated thanks
When a WSM or WSSM cartridge is positioned beside the longer belted magnum counterpart, the WSM / WSSM cartridge case is significantly larger in diameter, similar to that of a .404 Jeffrey case, from the base of the casing to the shoulder, with minimal or no reduction in width/diameter. There is also no belt on the WSM / WSSM casing which is used during the headspacing of the conventional belted cartridges. The idea of creating a 'short action' rifle with magnum ballistics likely figured into the design as well as powder burning efficiency. Based on the internal volume of the WSM / WSSM cartridge case, and a quick comparison with .300 H&H IMR 4831 load data for a boat-tail 190 grain bullet tops at 60.2 grains for that specific data, 65.5 grains in the standard .300 Win Mag case and 62.7 grains in the .300 WSM case for 2,800 fps at the muzzle. 2,700 fps with the same bullet type from the. 300 H&H but with a maximum listed in that manual of 60.2 grains, unable to match the performance (in terms of velocity) of the other propellants for that cartridge. Barrel length for the .300 Win. Mag is 25 inch 1:10 twist; .300 WSM, 24 inch 1:10 twist; .300 H&H, 26 inch 1:10 twist. (my preferred powder for .300 Win Mag is actually IMR 7828) The .300 WSM still has similar case capacity and doesn't save you much powder. I like that little stocky guy, but his appetite is the same as his tall lean, mean brothers. My presumption is that chamber pressures are noticeably higher in the WSM / WSSM casings, whether those cartridges are improved variations of standard conventional cartridges or belted magnums. Although the WSM/WSSM action is essentially a very high performance 'short action' bolt gun, the metal used to engineer the receivers may be thicker and/or stronger than what is typically used on standard and 'magnum length' actions.
It is an interesting area for sure Russell and as you note, there are no new rules for pressure or anything else in this reality. Most what could be learned about cartridges was in the books by the early 1900s - the rest is fun and good for shooting and marketing/sales - but nothing really new. I like all the ideas people come up though with - spice of life. My Best.
Most informative, friend. Cheers!
Greetings USOG I've viewed a lot of your videos and would provide a few comments. There is way too much comparison to a variety of cartridges that are in different classes of application. So your presentation seems convoluted to some degree. The 243 WSSM caliber you eventually get to talking about - there is no sample so that seems unusual. Although you have provided other examples of the WSSM line. And I agree that the WSSM cartridges are under-rated and there are too many referring to them with little practical or applicable use in the field. I have the 243 WSSM and I can say that the example that I have is exceedingly accurate. It does not jam in any conditions I've used it in. It has been reported that the 243 WSSM cartridge may be about 100 fps faster than a standard 243. So this factor helps when shooting a 100 grain bullet. Recoil is mild compared to a 270. I seem to remember that the velocity of the 25 WSSM was more or less the same as the 25-06. And both Browning and Winchester produced WSSM rifles and at least one other company made an AR 243 WSSM. Only Winchester produces ammunition in three grain weights. The 55 grain, and the 95 BST and 100 PSP. Both are excellent and shoot close to the same impact point. The 95 grainer will print a tad higher on the targets and a marginally bit closer groups. The 25 WSSM produced ammo that went up to 120 grains - so this can provide more weight for larger game. So if a 25-06 is considered to be usable on elk then the 25 WSSM could do the same. Where the 243 WSSM is really good for Whitetail deer and is not under-powered for this application. If memory serves me correctly they were constructed off of the WSM case - but shortened.
I like cartridges I can make from other cases: 260 Rem from .308 Win or 7-08 or .243Win and vice versa as examples. I can hardly ever find .260 Rem brass but can always find .308 or .243. With the WSSM you really don’t have any option for cases other than that brass, if you can find it.
Thanks! Love your video's!
A small roll of double sided carpet tape will take care of keeping your cartridge up on the table.... Interesting video as usual, I didn't know winchester made so many WSM WSSM.... The 300WSM is really popular up here! Stay healthy!
Thanks David - great idea
I got my 223 wssm going 4650 with the 40 gr and safe pressures
i felt in love with only the look of .223 wssm :]
Great vid thank you for sharing 👍... so did you find the 25wssm to be more accurate than the 25-06? I mean the positives are there shorter action, shorter barrel due to more efficient burn but you like the 25-06 better?
I’ve owned a model 70 in 25 wssm since they came out. When all my friends started shooting 6.5 the couldn’t believe what that 25 would do at range and I out shot a few of them.
Thoughts on 6.5 grendel?
Only redeeming quality of the grendel is its compatible with the AR15 magazines. The howa mini is the only rifle that makes use of the short case, if you like bolt actions. I have one and swedish laws states that its not suitable for moose, bear or wild hogs. With a custom barrel where you can fit 140 or 160 grain bullets without seating them halfway down the case, there is certainly ways to get what we call "klass 1" performance out of it.
CZ chambers the model 527 in Grendel. With a 120 gr bullet, it is a sweet 200 yard/meter deer rifle.
Do you know if any weapons manufacturers offer the wssm in semi auto bullpup????
Hi Kim - Not yet.
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Thank sweetheart!! Have you any clue if any are showing signs of having it in the works yet sugar bear??? The reason for my anxiousness is it normally won't be as front heavy yet still have the same length barrel for down range velocity and maintain a flat trajectory as well. But thank you so very very much for your reply sweetheart!!😘💋💋👉🐻❄️👈🤠 And Howdy Howdy from Alvin Texas sugar bear 🐻❄️!!!
I have a 25 wssm in an a bolt hunter and love it, but don’t waste your time with it, even if you handload. Ammo is crazy hard to find and brass is too. It will not do anything that other cartridges won’t do
Good comment Dan. I know what you mean. Some people just like something different.
I remember when the super shorts came out. I figured the barrels would get shot out in short order. I would have liked to see a 22 PPC. More is not always better.
Hi Steve - You're right. The PPC is a great round. I'll have to find some.
its a total win if you only like short action rifles that shoot mag cartridges! a 30.06 necked up to 9.3 might be kinda interesting if its in the same league as the 35whelin? i like the 300wsm and i like the concept! the 223wsm looks like fun! still think the 257wby mag is the best and the 25.06 the next best because i like older long action guns.
Great comment - the 9.3x62 is more or less the 30-06 necked up. The .300 WSM is superb. The .257 Weatherby is a fire breathing dragon and life....is fantastic : ) I wish you the very best.
The .220 Swift with the 48 grain bullet at a little over 4,000 fps was famous for those vapor trails on humid mornings. The bullet may not have been much good on anything with any size, but it moved!
Great line Tom " ...not much good on anything" - I like that. Speed is cool but to what end... as they say. Anyway I didn't know the Swift was known for that. Of course it should be - same approx. speeds and bullets. Thanks for letting me know. Take care out there.
The bullets often blew up on impact, great for woodchucks, made a big hole in a deer with no penetration. Change bullets and it was very similar to the 22-250, called the 22-250 WOS for Wotkins Original Swift.
Well since you said you liked the 6.5x55 and the short mags.
If i can find the rifles in this crazy time. I am looking a getting a new rifle.
And its come down to these 3.
A ruger american in 6mm remington
A blr stainless take down in 270wsm
Or a cz preferable in fs in 6.5x55
It would be for deer and hogs in fl. Both open hay and
Peanut fields and the edges of a few swamps.
What do you think of them and which one would you get ?
Thanks
That no doubt was a fascinating video on ammo I haven't seen much of if at all on store shelves. To me though ammo like that is a tale of firearm buyers be careful when it comes to new calibers being released. A round can be great, but if it doesn't gain market traction then getting ammo is going to be an adventure. And if a person is going on a hunt in the middle of nowhere and forgets their ammo then they are in a serious bind. Stores in those places will usually have .300 Win. Mag., 7mm Rem. Mag., 30-06 Springfield, .270 Win., etc., but not the WSSM's.
While I have no experience with a Type 38 in 6.5 Japanese, I do have the ammo adventures that come with owning an unsporterized Type 99 Arisaka that has been in the family since 1945. That is why I am leery about the latest and greatest rounds that just seem to come and go more often than not.
I also wanted to say that your pre-64 Model 70 in 375 H&H in your "Can't Afford a Winchester Pre-64? But this Rifle!" video is beautiful (as were the other rifles). I am wondering as to the year that it was made in?
Anyhow, I wish you and those behind the camera safety and a thank you for the video.
Hi and thank you : ) The 375 is a 61 from memory. Best of health to you!
@@UnitedStatesOfGuns Appreciate the response. I was initially thinking it was made in the mid-1950's, but then I noticed that the forearm was a little flatter to accommodate the hand finished machine checkering that Winchester adopted around 1960. As such I figured it might be early sixties. But, considering how much overlap there is within the Model 70 line I figured I would ask you.
Anyhow, let us hope for a return to happier times.
Another Great Video on WSSM cartridges which I first read about through the then free website chuck-hawks way back about in 2002 and finally now a great explanation about them. In My part of the world WSMs and WSSMs don’t exist
Hello Asim! Ramadan Mubarak!
Thank you Mike for The Ramadan Greetings. May this virus issue come to an immediate end. Ameen