This Army Does Not Retreat: Stones River (American Civil War)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- If you would like to support the channel please consider joining our Patreon or you can also donate on Paypal or Venmo.
Paypal: paypal.me/DanielTChick
Venmo: @Daniel-Chick
Patreon: / forgottenbattles
Links:
Itunes: itunes.apple.c....
Google Play: play.google.co....
Stitcher: www.stitcher.c....
Series Producer: Alex Nilsson
Written by: Sean Chick
Narrated by: Daniel Chick
General Rosecrans and General Bragg meet outside of Murfreesboro, TN. the ensuing battle claims thousands of lives in a Union Victory. Politics and personal grudges ultimately send this battle to shadows of history.
Sources:
"No Better Place to Die" by Peter Cozzens
"Days of Glory" by Larry J. Daniel
"Battle of Stones River" by Larry J. Daniel
"Braxton Bragg" by Earl J. Hess
"The Edge of Glory" by William Lamers
Forgotten Battles highlights and tell the stories of battles in history that played a major role in the unfolding story of humanity. Many of the battles featured in this series are not as well known as they should be and many deserve more attention, and in some cases, re-interpretation.
#civilwar #americanhistory #confederacy
It is sad that Stones Rivers and is now a forgotten battle by so many, I had 8 ancestors in that battle. All soldiers no officers. 6 were the on the Federal side 2 were soldiers in the Confederate army, all survived this battle. Sadly only 2 came home in 1865. A photograph of one is on my wall at my home...Ambrose Parker was a corporal at Stones River. He passed away in 1918. God Bless those of the greatest generation of the 19th century.From Alaska
Which unit was Parker in?
Rosecrans did well for himself after the war. He move to the Los Angeles area, bought a large ranch in what is now known as the "South Bay" area south east of Los Angeles proper. Even has a major road named after him, there (Rosecrans Ave).
In 1864, President Lincoln sent Rosecrans an invitation to serve as his running mate (Vice Presidential Candidate). Rosecrans replied affirmatively,, but Secretary Stanton intercepted the letter, and Lincoln never received the reply.
I remember reading in Sam Watkins memoir how strict a disciplinarian Bragg was. The common soldiers didn't develop any affection for Bragg but discipline was always something Civil War armies could never get enough of. Rosecrans was everywhere during the battle, apparently not affected by being completely covered in blood and gore as one of his staff officers was decapitated by a cannonball right beside him earlier.
Stones River was Rosecrans finest moment as an army commander.
@@Shadowman4710 I've read articles about how 'Old Rosy' was very well liked by his soldiers because they felt that he did everything in his power to keep casualties to a minimum. When soldiers give their general a nickname, it's usually done out of affection. I've also read Rosecrans had quite a commanding voice as well as a talent for chaining expletives together.
My Great Great Grandfather was there with the 15th Arkansas and was severely wounded in the leg on Dec.31, 1862.
My ancestor was in the 15th Arkansas....and was eventually sent to Vicksburg, where many Southerners were later captured. He survived the war, but died in 1866 from his injuries at Vicksburg. 15th Arkansas!
My Great, Great Grandfather was also there and he was killed on the same day your Great Great Grandfather was wounded... December 31, 1862. He was in the Tennessee 47th Infantry.
My Great, Great Grandfather fought in this battle. He was a member of the Tennessee 47th Infantry out of Gibson County,Western Tennessee. He never owned a slave but believed in States Rights. His unit marched from Gibson county by foot, over 150 miles, to the Murphreesboro area and he was later killed on December 31, 1862. I salute his bravery and standing up for what he thought was right!
My great-great-grandfather was at this battle. It's sobering to see the Hell he went through.
I was wondering if any of the commanders below Rosecrans were any good, but then I heard the name "Thomas." The "Rock of Chickamauga."
Sledge of nashville
I live in Murfreesboro. Attended middle school, high school and college here. None of those history classes talked about the importance of Stones River or even TN in the Civil War. I have to admit feeling quite angry when I realized how inept my education had been. Thank you for this video!
I live in Murfreesboro and frequently ride my bike past Fort Rosecrans and throughout the battlefield - a well preserved historic place
Hazens monument is a very somber place. Right next to the railroad tracks. So many soldiers perished there. Great video.
Thanks so much. This is personally one of my favorite videos we have made so far
This is fucking awesome and will have a ton of well-deserved views in time. Please make more in time!
Rosecrans sounded like a man of the people, regardless of which side he fought for.
A nice battlefield a short ride from Nashville. Bragg always seemed to find a way to snatch defeat from victory.
Fantastic video. Well done on a little known battle. Top Notch!!!
General Bragg was the McClellan on the South his greatest strength was procurement and quartermaster in those roles he had no rivals....but he was no field commander, the only reason that he was in command was he was a personal friend of President Davis.....as like the majority of the northern generals he was a political general
He actually was not really friends with Davis. That is sort of another long standing myth from the Civil War.
What an outstanding production (except you sald "KAL-var-ee." As a cavalry trooper in 2 regiments, you need to correct that behavior immediately.). I will look forward to watching more!
Great vid. Good info on the decision makers.
Thanks. I have always thought the ACW is best when you can explore it's cast of characters and what they are thinking. It's truly a great set of dynamic personalities
I live in Murfreesboro and the museum for this battle has always been one of the coolest places to go. There's also a memorial cemetery.
great video I'm gonna subscribe
Enjoyed your summary. Thanks for creating and posting!
Well done!
A well done - and compassionate - account of Stones River/Murfreesboro 😊🇺🇸🤙🏼👏🏼
Without compassion, seriously, what do we have? That's how I feel. Appreciate the like.
Even as the American Civil War is the most written about chapter in American History, there are still many fascinating aspects as yet unexplored.
The Battle of Stone's River is one of them.
Great work, Daniel.
Hope you carry on.
PS.....Ever studied the Battle of Beaver Dam Creek?
What is your assessment of George B. McClellan's performances on both the Peninsula and at Antietam?
We need to talk.
...smilin'....
Huzzah for Old Rosey!
Thanks for the video. Loved it
A very good overview! Thanks so much.
I fought at the reenactment. It was cool!
great video! thanks
Thanks for the video
Rosecrans means rosary a prayer asking Jesus for peace.General Rosecrans wore a rosary prayer beaded necklace.On line check out Our Lady of Clearwater window miracle.
I love the music you use for this video and your series on the Anestacian war. Could you reference the songs you use in the description of your videos?
@@seanchick8451 Fantastic!
I wrote a Civil War song. Tell me what you think. ua-cam.com/video/at1LSi1lhy8/v-deo.html
Good music on this one
Great video, though I remain unconvinced about the reasons for Rosecrans downfall. Though he deserves a lot of credit for brilliant moments such as Tullahoma campaign, he also shown questionable generalship at Chickamauga, being saved from the total disaster by George Thomas. He allowed his army to get under risk of being starved out in the siege of Chattanooga. Also, I don't believe Lincoln dismissed him for political reasons. Lincoln supported the Democrat McClellan wholeheartedly until it become completely evident that man could never bring the victory to the Union.
Indeed, you made a very fair point: a man that up to that point displayed superb generalship by all standards (and I am first to recfognize that) should not be sacked for a single setback. And Grant had his own bad days (1st day of Shiloh, and later Cold Harbor, for instance). But the issue was not Chikamauga: "We have unabated confidence in you and your soldiers and officers", Lincoln wrote to Rosecrans right after the battle. He also promised to send Burnside as reinforcement. But Rosecrans was so disheartened with the defeat that, instead of joining Thomas, he allowed his army to get besieged, and potentially starved into surrender in heavily fortified Chattanooga. There is a very famous quote from a Lincoln's letter to his personal secretary, saying Rosecrans was ""confused and stunned like a duck hit on the head". Since that was a private letter to a close person, there is no reason to believe it was insincere. We will never know the full truth, but all the indications are Rosecrans was not a kind of man that could preserve the self-reliance after a sound defeat.
To be fair too, I must agree the politics did count in military matters. Fitz John Porter fell victim to it, but I don't think that was the case with McClellan. First, even allowing such a young man and a conspicuous Democrat to ascend to the command of the most important Norther army demanded significant political courage from Lincoln, and the latter did take considerable beating from his allies for that. McClellan, though being organizational genius that forged the Army of the Potomac from scraps into one of the best fighting forces in the world, was not tailored to a field command. While Rosecrans seemingly could not cope with a defeat, my impression is Little Mac couldn't handle not even a slight perspective of it. The battles of his Peninsula Campaign had arguable a better tactical outcome to the Union that those of Grant's Overland Campaign. The difference is that after every clash Grant licked his wounds and kept marching south, while MacClellan retreated even after sound victories, such as Malvern Hill. Another example of his lack of courage was the refusal to commit the reserves and potentially destroy Lee's Army at Antietam. I believe I am here representing mainstream (though by no means unanimous) views, and I think they are very defensible. But part of the joy of studying ACW is the possibility of having such discussions.
Politics for sure took part in his fall from grace but I think at the end of the day they mostly lost confidence in him due strictly military matters as he himself seems to have greatly lost confidence as result of such major setback still even then he never became a pariah like other fallen generals like those two you mention, Porter and McClellan, and to a lesser extend Don Carlos Buell and Charles Pomeroy Stone, as he was even considered a potential vice president candidate for the 64 elections.
A discussion of a battle with maps so convoluted and confusing you have no idea which side is which. The portraits and biographies of officers involved are informative and insightful. Do not expect to learn about the battle in any depth.
I thought rosecrans army was the cumberland
As I understand it, Rosecrans received command of XIV Corps in Oct, 1862 which was then made up of Right, Left and Center Wings. It would later be redesignated as the Army.of the Cumberland on Jan 9th 1863.
@@lawrencemyers3623 the wing system is a terrible organizational system i have no idea why they even used it
It's too easy for people living nowadays to praise or criticize any of these men over 160 years later since we weren't there in person.
Where is the map animation?
Would be nice without the background piano music.
Good video. Big egos always clashing.
The narrative is disconnected from the map we are viewing. Would be better to have a narrative synchronized with movements on the map to enable viewers to have a more informed understanding. No point in having map if the map isn't in sync with the narrative.
Check out the latest video. (Granicus). I created and animated all the maps from scratch.
An army with superior numbers and weaponry does not retreat....yeah I would hope not.
what songs did you use for the music?
my orphans my poor orphans
Very sad thing. I hope to visit the spot someday but my travels has not brought me there yet.
McCook was forever getting his men routed
More likes......... it's easy, just hit da' button !
Gteat stuff man.
Bravo.
Well what happened in the Korean War
I always been a big fan of your intro music, especially for this video and your series on the Anestacian Wars. Could you link, or at least name, the pieces of music that you use? Maybe I'm the only one who gives a fuck but I'd be beside myself with joy.
Elegy on the Death of Madame G.T. Beauregard - Theodore Von La Hache
So I guess it was Grants jealousy that ran Rosecrans back to Chattanooga and leave his Army on the field beleaguered.
No reason to think that. Also, no reason to suggest that Rosecrans was less than a great general consequent to his retreat during Chickamauga. He made a bad decision and was humiliated by his choice.
Many men of all ranks made bad decisions consequent to battle fatigue, being emotionally overwhelmed by all of the violent death of peers that they experienced.
Grant was the greater general, however, he did exhibit bias and favoritism in his decisions, and some of his criticisms of generals such as Rosecrans and Thomas reflect a competitive attitude towards them.
Grant, Rosecrans, Sherman, Thomas, Sheridan, and many others were all great military leaders, and all had personal flaws, being human.
@@biophilist I agree, im sure ol' Rosey being up all night didn't help with his decision making on that day.
Lincoln said that after Chickamauga Rosecrans got "confused and stunned like a duck hit on the head.". He seems to have lost the self-confidence and did not take any reasonable action to extricate his army from the risk of starvation in Chattanooga. This seems a credible justification for the removal.
@@mariocampos1969 Agree, it was justified. As happens with many soldiers after grisly experiences, he was emotionally spent.
@@seanchick8451 Yes, I remember that Grant mentioned that when he came to relieve Rosecrans, the latter made a very good assessment of the situation and gave several excellent ideas on how to proceed. Grant only found strange he did not move to implement any of them. I don't doubt Rosecrans was great tactician and a capable field commander, but only of his psicoligical conditions to quickly overcome a major defeat. We will never know if he could do it if he was given a second chance. Sherman, for instance, was also psicoligically impaired for command at certain point in war but did make good the second opportunity he got.
Most too lazy to shave 😉
Grant was over rated
I stopped listening when you spoke of Ulysses S. Grant. If you could be so off the mark there, how could I trust anything else?
Grant was the most respected general. Not Rosecrans. Grant was never one for politics and would welcome any success.
I recommend you read a couple biographies of Ulysses S Grant.
Having read Ron Chernow’s biography and plenty of other literature on Grant, I disagree with you. A great deal of Grant’s success came from his knack for politics - war is, after all, a political activity with political goals, so an outstanding strategist must be politically savvy.
Grant’s political acumen allowed him to get along very well with Lincoln. He was able to withstand Halleck’s jealous scheming and outmaneuver McClernand. He also had a good ear for public opinion, which was vitally important. Those were positive manifestations of his political side. And of course he got himself elected president, twice, and did a pretty good job before retiring from public life as a world-renowned and wildly popular public servant.
Unfortunately, Grant was also human and does seem to have stooped to petty jealousy himself on occasion. His treatment of Thomas especially but also of Rosecrans are probably the ugliest examples of his military judgement being clouded by personal feeling. He could also show excessive favoritism, especially toward Sherman, who was his personal friend.
Sherman’s personal friendship was strategically important, keeping Grant in the army when he contemplated resigning in the aftermath of Shiloh. But Sherman’s military record doesn’t really stack up well with Thomas, who, objectively, would have been a much better choice to lead the Atlanta campaign. Grant chose Sherman, and it nearly cost Lincoln the election...to say nothing of the thousands of lives Sherman lost after bungling his opportunity to destroy Johnston at Snake Creek Gap.
@@mjfleming319- You make a lot of good points. I think you are right in pointing out that Grant was sensitive to the situations around him. I agree regarding McLernand. I also think of how he wanted to let the army of the Potomac finish the job against Lee, rather than bringing up Sherman.
I think you are also right about his personal sensitivity. After the victories at Henry and Donelson, Grant was understandably frustrated. There was a clear opportunity to finish the war in the west, and it was squandered; and then he was punished! He was ready to quit. After Shiloh, he was ready to quit again after being shelved. I think he can be criticized for that, but then again, his friend Sherman helped him make the right decision.
I think the problems with Rosecrans are real. We both know about the misunderstanding early in the war, but the disaster at Chickamaugua…
Well, you know what happened.
I also still think you are unfair to Grant in some ways. Consider his arrival at Washington and his travels around the world. He was a very humble man. I agree with you that he was very loyal to his friends. I disagree that Thomas was a better general than Sherman. They were both excellent generals, but Sherman was much more familiar with Georgia, and his campaign on Atlanta was a masterpiece. Consider the words of a Confederate soldier. “Sherman won’t go to hell. He will outflank the devil and get into heaven.” We know that Kennesaw Mountain was a bad idea, but really - Sherman was a genius, perhaps the smartest general in the war. Would Thomas have taken the initiative to go to Savannah, and then up to North Carolina?
Thomas, on the other hand, did not take the initiative in the way Grant would like him to do it. When he finally did attack, it was a sledgehammer blow - no doubt. I’m thinking of the battle of Nashville. But why did it even get to that point?
Lincoln liked Grant because of how the general fought. Recall how Lincoln said, “I cannot spare this man. He fights.” He loved how Grant did *not* have political aspirations. He loved how Grant did the best with what he had instead of always asking for more.
In addition, anyone would be impressed by Grant’s Vicksburg campaign, as Lincoln was.
I agree the Grant could be faulted for excessive trust and loyalty to his friends.
In his memoirs, Grant spoke very highly of both of Sherman and of Thomas. The biographies I recommend of Grant are those written by H. W. Brands and Jean Edward Smith. I think you can also get insights from the memoirs of both Sherman and Sheridan, as well as Grant’s - which is a delightful read.
Grant comes across as a humble man who always tried to do what was right. He is a rags to riches story. He also possessed profound decency. The more I learn about him; the more I love the guy. I wish we had people like him around today.
So that might affect my judgment, but it comes after much study. When I was a boy, I admired people like Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee. As an old codger, I have a different perspective; but I still have heroes - and Ulysses S. Grant is near the top of the list.
@@oldcodger9388 I agree about Grant. And my fondness for him has grown over the years too.
I have been reconsidering Sherman. I started that reconsideration on one level after reading several George Thomas biographies. By Sherman’s own, he missed a nice-in-a-career opportunity when he failed to bag Johnston at Snake Creek Gap. And the reason he missed it is that he dismissed Thomas’ advice and sent McPherson to do a job that Thomas was ready and able to perform. To me, that missed chance takes an awful lot of shine off the Atlanta campaign...what could have been a crushing, army-destroying victory turned into a long, politically dangerous campaign... to say nothing of Kennesaw Mountain, on which you and I agree. But there were multiple other occasions where Sherman tried to goad Thomas into costly assaults and Thomas managed to talk him out of it.
Now, as to Nashville...part of the reason it took Thomas so long to attack was, of course, the weather. But another serious problem he faced was the lack of both transit and cavalry mounts...and he was desperately short on horses, mules, and wagons because Sherman took all the best on his march and left Thomas with the crumbs.
I’m also seriously reconsidering Sherman’s march to the coast. There are, first of all, the moral concerns about such widespread punitive destruction of civilian property, including the means of food production. And did that punitive destruction really end the war faster? I’m not convinced. Why not destroy Hood’s army immediately after capturing Atlanta? Why not take a more direct route toward Virginia instead of the punitive raid through Georgia? It seems to me that simply cutting the railroads on the way to polish off Lee’s army would have been just as effective at denying Lee food and materiel.
Those are some of the things I’m reconsidering. I’d appreciate any thoughts or insights you have!
@@mjfleming319 - Thanks for your thoughts. I think highly of both Thomas and Sherman. If they had been leading armies in Virginia in 1861, I think the war would have ended much more quickly.
The fact that I think they were both great generals doesn’t mean I think they were infallible. Everyone made tactical errors at times.
With regard to Hood, I see this as part of Sherman’s strategic genius. Hood wanted Sherman to chase him around. Then Hood could wreak havoc on Sherman’s supply lines. Hood was already doing that, and Sherman actually *did* start chasing him. Given the ability of the Confederacy to raise armies (I’m thinking of the impressive force quickly assembled by AS Johnson before Shiloh), and the prowess of NB Forrest, it would be problematic at best and a disaster at worst for Sherman.
Everyone except him was frightened by his “cut loose” strategy. In retrospect, it looks less risky - maybe because we tend to focus on battles rather than logistics. At the time, however, it was considered a big risk. One advantage Sherman had was a knowledge of the region. He had traveled extensively through the area prior to the war.
The damage done by Sherman’s troops really did “make Georgia howl”, but it was not as devastating as the howling might have made a person think. The path was only 60 miles wide, so most of Georgia was untouched. The impact on the minds of the people of the south was much more significant. An army of Yankees singing “John Brown’s body lies a mouldering in the grave, but his soul is marching on”, followed by thousands of emancipated people that *the Georgians* had enslaved.
My moral concerns are minimal when it comes to the destruction of the property of people *fighting* for their so-called “property rights” in humans they enslaved. I agree with the sentiments expressed by Lincoln in his Second Inaugural address.
Sherman wanted to crush the morale of the south - and he did. That was strategic genius. What is more impressive is that he predicted *all* of this in a letter to the people of the south before the war.
If you have any doubt about his intellect, I recommend you read his memoirs. It shows. My concerns regarding his moral condition revolve more around his racism and insufficient sympathy for the enslaved during the Civil War and what he called “useless Indians” afterwards.
With regard to Thomas, I’m interested in your recommendation. I haven’t read a complete biography of him. I have read small-scale bios and articles; and I find him impressive both as a soldier and a man.
Grant is a hero to me. Sherman is not in that category, but still a brilliant general. I suspect Thomas might be another hero.
Thanks again. Please forgive any typos.
@@oldcodger9388 Rock of Chickamauga by Freeman Cleaves is a great start. Master of War is good too,but perhaps more biased against Grant and Sherman.
Great video thanks