Odd Time Signatures in Video Game Music
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- Опубліковано 30 тра 2024
- Everyone loves odd meters, right? Whether it's to add a little wrinkle in an otherwise straightforward tune, or an attempt to completely discombobulate the listener, odd time signatures are one of my favourite ways to add interest to a piece of music. In this video I take a look at some of my favourite examples of odd meters in video game music and the effects that they have on each piece.
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#OddMeters #videogamemusic #musictheory - Ігри
“Boring old 4/4 time and its stuck up cousin 3/4 time”
2/4: Am I a joke to you?
12/8: laughs in groups of 3
cut time
6/8 *laughs in marching 3/4*
You’ll only ever be half the man your brother 4/4 is
2/2: ...wait a minute
*Breathes in 9/8*
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
In two three out two in two out two
I breathe in 5/4 and 4/4. We're not so different, you and I.
9/8 is easy if you treat it as three beats of three eighth notes.
@@finalscore2983 *hyperventilates, flops over*
I was hoping this video was about a song in like 47.5/32 or something
The fact that Marx's theme sounds good is a micracle. What an impressive feat of composition
That’s because they somehow managed to actually create a catchy melody with a dynamic time signature… it’s kinda fun to compose using weird time signatures, but creating something that’s palatable to general audiences is another story entirely…
@@wolfetteplays8894 Yeah, the melody does really drive this one; it didn't sound confusing to me at all until I watched this and tried to count it
The real miracle is that Strong One somehow doesn't sound like a random hash of notes
This is what my anxiety sound like
7/8
3/5
During cats the musical is with broke me:
'MAX YOUR WRONG'
lol 7/8 is easy
@@planktonweed727 really? would you care to demonstrate for the class?
Sam Diamond Or in a solo like Rhythm Song which uses 3 2 2 3 2 2
7/8 is easy though, and marching band makes it so much fun
The testimony theme from Ace Attorney 2 is in 27/16. That's my weirdest.
Alex Stilgoe
Now that you've said that, I can't get it out of my head that it sounds wrong.
It did sort of in the first place, but it's just... off now.
Still a great piece of music and a great soundtrack.
To be frank, I think 27/16 is overcomplicating it. It's basically just alternating time sinatures: 3/16 three times, then 5/16, then 3/16 three times again and 4/16. There's no longer underlying melody or beat, so dividing it like this this is easiest.
What a cool tune, tho. So good.
Strong one (masked man) for me, 29/16
Bass Buster X
With changing tempo.
Uh
27 is 3^3
and 16 is 2^2^2
uh oh
Video game composers deserve more love. Sure, the work of the designers and programmers make the game a game, but the composers make the game immersive, setting the tone of the game in a way the designers could never dream.
Good music can be the absolute saving grace for a game because everyone loves music. Even with mediocre games, good music will continue to make the game memorable years and even decades down the line.
Agreed.
That's not entirely true. Set any of these pieces to another game in the list. Put Kirby's music over Fire Emblem. Is it immersive now? The designers, developers, and artists are all working together to make a tone, a mood, a feeling. Hell, even if we take Super Mario Bros 1, same music and same art, it would lose a lot of immersiveness if he was instead running around shooting goombas. The music, the sound effects, the art, and even the mechanics all come together in harmony to make a game feel the way it does.
@@Sakis_Husband sonic 2006 is a good example
Sound design, whether it be the soundtrack and its use, or foley, can make or break ANY experience, whether it be an immersive cinematic story(Cinematic JRPGs, which play out like stage plays, or western RPGs, which play out like films without a coherent 3-act structure), or just a playful action romp. Great games have great soundtracks for what they're pushing, and great sound design in the foley as well(Much of the Final Fantasy series, Katamari Damacy, all of their effects give the feel of the gameplay experience they're pushing), while a game can be completely ruined by bad sound design(Megaman X6 anyone?).
It's RARE to see a game with somewhat iffy sound work or background music manage to still be good. Warship Gunner II has great sound effects, but the repetitive vocals and mismatched music makes for a ridiculously painful experience. In the same way, a Void of sound effects can cause plenty of problems too(Which is a big reason Half Life Deathmatch wasn't nearly as fun as Unreal Tournament, which managed to feel genuinely fast-paced whenever you loaded into a patch, in large part due to the music's time constantly stepping you up through the tempo. Usually. In Halflife, on the other hand, there was no music, no real environmental sound, and effects were WAY too punchy and often a pain on the ears.
Me who knows nothing about music theory: Yes, these fractions are quite tricky indeed
for simplicity sakes top number is how many beats per measure and bottom number is what fraction of a whole note is the beat so the most common time signature 4/4 literally mean 4 quarter notes per measure there is some more nuance to this like 3/4 and 6/8 despite have the same measure length are read differently but thats the basic understanding
@@gaymerjerry I understood the first sentence then gave up and started blanking out . I just like funny noise in mario.
@@gonkdroidincarnate4237 simply the top number is the number u count to in each measure. in the funny mario song u count to 13 with the bass
@gonkdroidincarnate4237 In baby terms, the top number is how many, and the bottom number is of what note (quarter, sixth, eith, etc.). The top note dictates how many notes are in a measure, and the bottom note dictates how "fast" the song is, in a way.
@@Tea_Noire never say baby terms again you sound pretentious
Breath of the Wild's Hyrule Castle has a pretty interesting mix of 5/4 and 6/4, which probably contributes to the unique "March, but more epic" feel it gives off.
Sorry I'm late but yeah, you're absolutely right. The first time I heard it with those marching footsteps under it, I did need some time to get over the fact their march was impossible lol.
I was thinking about this song the entire video
That Kirby track didn’t have to go so hard, but it did.
I can’t even imagine trying to learn that on one of my instruments
@@chocolatechip7137 It's actually not that hard.
Gryll The Onion shhhhhh let me wallow in self pity
@@chocolatechip7137 Lol
Like you when you fought Toriel.
You monster.
way to absolutely drag every prog fan in the first minute of the video
We're used to it.
Hell yeah
I do it out of love!!!!
Absolutely
Progheads unite!
the entire soundtrack of kirby's canvas curse is interesting; due to its theme of "classic kirby songs, corrupted" a lot of them have shifted time signatures, which stand out even more by using a melody the player would already know from previous games how it's supposed to sound normally
Honestly there's a reason nobody ever chooses to listen to that soundtrack, and it's because that decision made the music sound bad
@@ellie8272 cool
@@ellie8272 L take + drawcia fight/drawcia soul my beloved
0:00 He is a drumer
1:09 Kingdom Hearts (5/4 Time Signature breaks beat into 3 beats and 2 beats)
3:15 Nino Kuni 2, _Leavetaking_ (gives the sense the music is taking a breathe. C# resolves are beautiful)
4:52 FIre Emblem _Black Fang_ (7/4, 4 and 3, flat 2 ivokes a grim atmosphere)
6:28 _Weapons Factory_ (13/8, 3 snare, (1) Establish a pattern (2) Repeat pattern but Add and subtract a last note)
7:45 Mother 3, _Barriar Trio_ (15/8, tap in rhythm, 15 straight beats of madness)
9:03 Ganondorf Battle Theme (23/16, 3 groups of 3 16th notes followed by a group of 4 16th notes, frantic energy, disorienting)
11:00 Kirby Superstar's _Marx's Theme_ (Constant changing time signature, 5/4 7/4 3/4. Dissonant harmony)
13:13 Ending the video
Thank you!
account name checks out
Thankyou Mr. UA-cam Sparknotes
Genuinely wish you would do this to all the videos i watch
My band director (who is also a percussionist) was obsessed with odd-eight measures. We even marched in ⅞ (every 3rd step was long). I’ll never forget our assistant director shouting “Taco Taco Taco Bell” to teach us the rhythm.
Why was every third step long? Couldn't you just start on the other foot on the strong beat? So for the first measure you start with the right leg, then next measure with the left leg. (Granted, I don't have a clue about marching bands since they're not a thing here where I live.)
@@pintavodki My marching band did that with 5/4 but I guess this band director had a specific vision in mind
OMG THAT IS AMAZIMG
The Taco Bell trick... Actually works. Wow. Using that next time I run into 7/8!!
Mikhail Kuznetsov The problem with that is that the next measure would start on an upbeat if you marched with equal steps. It is possible, but then you’d have to get the band used to marching while alternating stepping on all downbeats then all upbeats every measure.
Dude no way I was one of the guys swapping off on the drums with you at MAGFest a few weeks back! All I remember is you hitting this sick 12/8 lick in the middle of one of a Latin chart. Had no idea you were so big on UA-cam. Keep killing it on the kit man it was great to play with you!
++!!
666th like
i dropped my music major at the end of the spring 2019 semester and here i am, fascinated in theory again
panic ! why’d you drop it?
That's why I'm so afraid to drop. Shits hard and my hobbies are more in tune with video games rather than music but... God dammit I want to compose music so badly when I'm older.
@@KeWDu get a music teacher and have her/him teach u what she learned at college
lol, what a great discount
@@Meurieza That's not really how that works. 😅
Cameron Mack i wasn’t there specifically for comp, but for ed. the personalities and drama at my school in the music building wasn’t something i could personally handle. it’s unfortunate- i love music and i wanted to teach and spread my love, but unfortunately it wasn’t for me at the moment.
6:15
"Heart pumping tension during a tough boss fight"
*shows boss getting one shot by the player*
and its URSULA, to boot
I'm a simple man. I see Ganondorf, I click. Also, I didn't know you were a drum-playing Diddy Kong at 13.
I think what he meant is that he worked at Rare to make the drum sounds for Diddy Kong, when he was 13 years old. Well, not exactly, but something along these lines.
@@Gustavo6046 I dunno. I think my interpretation in more plausible.
@@Gustavo6046 I didn't think that's what he meant. He really did that or..?
Bongos*
@@ysaelperez8027 bongos are drums :p silly goose.
omg 8-bit music theory face reveal in the first 5 seconds what a blessing
Check out the livestreams on Adam Neely's channel. You can get a whole load of his face, knowledge and good vibes
I got a closer look at 0:17, and I think he looks an awfully lot like Diddy Kong...
I never expected to see a UA-camr I recognize commenting on the video of another UA-camr I watch. I suppose you do make covers of video game music, so it makes sense that you'd watch a channel that discusses music theory in video games.
Jules!
he really resembles a drawing of a keyboard
Why did you talk about Mother 3's "Strong One" theme and not do the Masked Man version? It is, in terms of 16th notes, 71907/40120
I think it's better start with the original before touching on the variation.
I'm pretty sure it's just 29/16
29/16 with rubato
@@wilh3lmmusic Machines do not play rubato, they need to be programmed very precisely, thus the absurd, almost-strictly-theoretical-except-in-this-context-it-really-matters time signature written into the thousands. If I was arranging it for a group of humans though I would only use that as a sort of in-joke after explaining that yeah it's "just" a slurry 29.
I believe I was the one that made the comment years ago about the time signature being 71907/40120.
And I calculated this, by looking at the _exact_ lengths of each of the notes, and all the different tempo changes they used in the in-game sequence.
For example, if there was a bar that consisted of 5 quarter notes at 120 bpm, and then 3 quarter notes that was then played at 180 bpm, I would work it out like this:
The 5 quarter notes is just 5 quarter notes. The 3 quarter notes at 180 bpm, would be the equivalent of playing 3 triplet quarter notes at 120 bpm, and therefore, I'd calculate this as being a 7/4 time signature, where the last 2 beats consist of 3 triplet quarter notes.
I like how Yoko shows up several times in this video.
There's nobody better than Yoko
I will fight anybody over this
Of course, she is the goddess Yoko shimomura
Yoko Shimomura and Koji Kondo will have a legendary battle
@@reimisugimoto3617 don't forget Nobuo!
Composing Marx's theme:
Guy: So what time signature is it?
Jun Ishikawa: Yes.
"Roll dice for the time signature."
"Excuse me??"
"With that attitude, roll a d20."
A D20 for time signature!!!! That explains so much!!😆
These Japanese composers, genius tho they are, are a real headache to me learning these songs by ear.😅
Syd barret was an unappreciated gem haha
I'm gonna say this and it's gonna sound like I'm underplaying this piece but I'm really not. That piece isn't even comparable to a lot wind ensemble or orchestra music. Last year I play David Holsinger's Homage: three tapestries, and the first movement uses a couple different times signatures in seemingly random orders, but it all sounds very good
Ishikawa: Wait, what's that?
Guy: That is a d30. It's mostly useles-
Ishikawa: YOU GLORIOUS INSANE BITCH!
Mother 3 will MAKE you care about time signatures.
Yes, indeed.
I know THAT all too well, I finished a play through of Mother 3 on my channel not to long ago.
Uhhh is there a english rom? Probably not anymore.
Trust me, once that rom was sent out on the internet, it can be found.
The pain...
*_23/16..._* *_The Legend Of Zelda: Ocarina Of Time is a masterpiece and the song of the battle against Gandondorf couldn't be less._* *_A masterpiece today and forever._*
I just love the 5/4 time signature. It has the exoticism that comes with deviating from 'boring' signatures like 4/4, 3/4, and 6/8, but you can still get in a groove with it. It can still be really catchy. A prime example of this is botw's hyrule castle theme, which is arguably the best in any zelda game yet. Granted, it isn't ONLY in 5/4, but the majority of it is based on a 5/4 rhythm. Serious props to Manaka Kataoka for creating something so good.
I want to know what kind of musician Ganondorf was before/during his ambition to take over Hyrule.
At the very least, he apparently knew how to play some kind of organ. _That's not exactly a musical noob's first instrument._ =^p
ChaosRayZero I always thought that when he touched the triforce of power, he just instantly gained sick pipe organ skills.
Maybe his true wish he wanted from the triforce was musical skills, but link and zelda didn't want ganon to have fun.
@@tjlnintendo explains why he was so upset come wind waker.
djefinitely djent
Me:
_clicks bell_
_sees this thumbnail_
**Masked Man theme intensifies**
Mmmm ain't nothing better than a good 29/16 time signature
*send help*
Your show more button is broken.
... Was that intented?
@@TurtwigX Isn't it 71907/40120?
@@lukeahandsa Oh, of course
@@lukeahandsa Unfortunately not. It's still 15/6, but with a constantly changing tempo
Saw this and thought “Marx’s theme better be in here”
Saved the best (and weirdest) for last, I see
“Here We Are” from Undertale uses that 5/4 clave! (I believe that’s the song that plays in the True Lab…?)
CC Productions yup
Ahh, that explains why I thought the 5/4 clave sounded so cool. Toby Fox is truly a big jazz boy.
So does the final part of Alphys' theme
I always saw Here We Are as a 10/8 composition (3+3+2+2)
Yuki Nagato could be either way. That piano does play that pattern of 3+3+2+2. It could also have been written in 5/4 with eighth notes. I guess we would never know unless we saw the original sheet music
The Portal 2 track _You Know Her_ has a 17/16 time signature for part of it, which adds a slight inconsistent delay to the music.
What?! I always felt something was off but I couldn't quite tell what it was!
Also the song _Halls of Science 4_ has a melody in 7/8 and then the bass in 2/8
@@mysteryfish2043 that one was very obviously weird, but again I couldn't tell how. How many others are there?
@@potatoes131 The song _Reconstructing More Science_ seems to be changing time signatures constantly with no clear spot for every downbeat. All I know is that the soundtrack to this game is *awesome*
@@mysteryfish2043 I agree wholeheartedly!
the first time i discovered that time signatures outside 4/4 exist was through a big ol infuriating evening of not understanding why the hell i wasnt able to sync up marx's schtanky theme in fl studio... lol
I had a similar experience with the song "Moon River" which is in 3/4 and the Halloween theme which is in 5/4
same with me and khii's sacred moon
Not really my first experience with them since I knew what they were, b it I was trying so hard to fit the Mission Impossible theme into 4 beats
This is easily one of my favourite videos on the platform. It's so dense with GOOD content and a genuine enthusiasm for the subject matter. Not to mention odd time rules.
Hollow Bastion’s main theme was one of the songs that got me really into music theory and dissecting musical scores as a child, starting in the 4th grade when I first picked up a flute. It took SO long to get its time signature down without being able to look at it online, but I was able to see it so well in my mind. Also, Blast Off III used trills really well and I was really happy when I was able to play those by ear when I became advanced enough to tackle them.
Eventually when I became the section leader and woodwind captain my senior year in high school, many Kingdom Hearts tunes became key staples in warming up and bringing harmony to the band. It was fantastic, and one of my freshmen convinced the director to bring on Hikari as their final act in the last concert for the year in the lower-class band as I watched with tears in my eyes. I was so proud of them.
Also, Night of Fate also shares this 5/4 time signature, and it too was one of my favorite pieces in the game. 5/4 rocks!
I'm neither 13 nor a drummer and these wonky time signatures make my heart happy (that Kirby tune is WILD, really makes you wonder how people think of this stuff).
Depends if they're gamers or not. Normal people aren't as exposed to these types of concepts in music so they often react negatively towards it. If you're into this kind of stuff I highly recommend checking out some of the classic prog rock albums, such as Yes (Fragile, Close to the Edge), Genesis (Foxtrot, Selling England by the Pound, Nursery Cryme), Emerson Lake and Palmer (ELP, Tarkus). There's also King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard (Flying Microtonal Banana, Polygondwanaland), this is an extremely recent band though (and surprisingly good).
Gamers rise up.
Ikr ikr
@@nal8503 Hey, don't forget Hemispheres by Rush, or if you're willing to dip into metal, basically anything by Opeth.
(or Dream Theater but honestly I hate them)
@@browncoat697 I'd add on to the metal by throwing meshuggah out there. their whole shtick is that they wanted to make every instrument to be focused on rhythm. Every song is filled with weird looping melodies over strange time signatures. Incredible stuff
Another odd time signature is found in Haggstrom, a song in Minecraft. It’s unusual rhythm is broken into two sets of three with a straggler beat, giving a sense of a living breath, pushing the melody forward.
All Minecraft songs, as hinted by the composer of all 54 of these, are designed like record albums, having an “A” and “B” side. Most people know the “A” side to each piece, but the second half always waits to pop in as if it were it’s own piece responding to the first tune’s call.
In Haggstrom, or more specifically, it’s second half, the time signature stays as 7/4, but is clouded with ambient vocal/flute “gusts”, a variety of dynamic volume dips and swells, and tops it off with an altered main melody paired with sister harmonies. This melody alteration is found in nearly every song from the game and a select few in out-of-game albums. Check out Biome Fest from the Minecraft soundtrack as well for another odd rhythm (haven’t figured it out yet).
If you’ve made it this far, happy listening! Love the video!💚
The Minecraft soundtrack is honestly incredibly underrated. Probably some of the best ambient music ever made
Ya I have a sound for video games class and did a report on successful musicians. Someone took LoZ. So I chose him and I don't even play that game, I was surprised how good it was and just really neat interesting music. His interview was great too
The song Far off of the second Minecraft album is pretty interesting too. It switches every meter from 9/8 to 7/8. Listen to it and count along with it, it's neat. In my interpretation it kind of reflects the distant, spacey feel of the song, not really quite knowing where to place the beat; either just off or just before where it would land in simple 4/4. Once the backing marimba kicks in it does switch to 4/4 though, lame
That used to baffle me when I was younger, I used to think it switched back and forth between 3/4 and 4/4, but it might just be 7/4
*its
The theme for the last fight in Golden Sun: the Lost Age. It opens with 5/8, then goes 3/4, 7/8, 5/8, 6/8, 8/8, repeats, then 5/4, 6/4, 5/4, 9/4, 5/4
It's my favorite odd time signature videogame theme, and a top 3 overall
Although it isn’t especially complicated, 5/4 time has always been my favorite.
Dang, no mention of Strong One (Masked Man)?
Mother 3, knowing Strong One wasn't hard enough, follows it up with a variant in 29/16 time.
*71907/40120.
Also, I agree. He should've added it
Technically, it's 28.67676969/16 time. Because of course it is.
Sounds fucking disgusting to play
It is not as bad as it sounds. Just take the tuplets from the middle of strong one and speed them up just a touch and you get the masked man variant
Probably Spoiler reasons
A bunch of people pointed out that Mother 3 has a harder and more rhythmically messed-up version of most of its battle songs. The hard version of Strong One, Strong One (Masked Man) cuts out a semiquaver for 29/16 rhythm. Eat your heart out, Ganondorf!
Dan Bruno transcribed the whole thing on his site.
it is actually (28(3394/5015))/16 equals about 28.67676969/16. i can't combo on that.
LOL ................................. 29/16 rythm, that written down theory has so much to do with music like going to the toilet.
Rubato
It's 29/16 but slightly speeds up a bit in the middle.
Surprised he also didnt mention that Masked Man version of Strong One. The first time I heard that song, it made me very disoriented and that was actually a pretty great experience.
Because that uses irrational time signatures and they’re very hard to explain using the additive time signatures shown here because it requires stuff like LCD
Yeah, the time signature for that fight is *_29/16!_*
_These composers are sociopaths._
My little dyscalculic heart LOVES weird time signatures because normal counting is already a nightmare - weird counting almost levels the playing field!
Shoutouts also to the 11/8 tune that plays in Mario Kart 64 after you win a race in GP
Longfellow this!!!!
That just brought back great memories. I love that beat
Love the use of a Hammond organ-esque sound in that game too
clicked on this video expecting this!!
DAMNIT THIS WAS MY COMMENT XD
Saw odd time signature. Never clicked so fast in my life
when your inner prog can't resist
13 year old drummer?
The only way you're going to be able to know what happens next in Marx's theme, you'll have to be playing Kirby games since your childhood. Thankfully, I'm one of those people and I've practically memorized the entire track. The first time I heard it, I felt tingles down my back, let me tell you
That video of Portnoy counting the time signature changes in Dance of Eternity is still one of my favorite things ever.
Have you seen the video where they play through it during the drummer auditions? It’s fascinating.
I notice that the "5/4 Clave" time signature you talk about is used in a lot of games for boss fights that happen at particularly critical points in the story. The beat is just complicated enough to feel unsettling while still being very easy to understand, and the two stressed notes at the end of each measure make it sound kind of violent. It's a time signature that you can keep a whole piece in consistently and still end up with a dramatic theme that feels like it's going somewhere.
P.S. I like how the title of that Fire Emblem song "Softly With Grace" sounds like musical directions, _andante con grazia_ or something like that.
FE Gaiden/Echoes uses it, too, in the basic battle theme. Final Fantasy 8, as well, in the same fashion.
Right on. Another perfect example I'm surprised wasn't mentioned in the video was the Ridley battle in Super Metroid. I'd be curious to see what he had to say about the other phrases of that piece other than the main Clave.
Oh, yeah, the Ridley theme is a _classic_ example of that beat.
@@scottgattie2257 Wow, yeah, it's a little odd he didn't mention Vs. Ridley. It's made even more explicit in the way that Vs. Ridley has gradually become a banging metal track over time, transforming it from the original unsettling 16 bit version to the savage prog metal you hear in the Smash Ultimate remix.
ua-cam.com/video/JAEM1dZOsEo/v-deo.html
A completely opposite example is Undertale's Here We Are, ominous but very upbeat. I was hoping he'd mention it
Also holy crap I can't believe I forgot about Ridley
Dance of Eternitys time signature chart will always make me nostalgic
"Odd time signitures"
(clicks)
(sees Dream Theater footage)
All is as it should be.
And give me nightmares still lol.
Hartmann's Youkai Girl from Touhou is my personal favorite odd time signature song.
What about Hartmannerest Youkaierest Girlest
What's really nice with the Kirby song is that the beat 1 of the measure is strong to feel where the time signatures change. At first it sounds chaotic but you can feel where the beat lands
Strong One and Marx's theme were the first two themes I thought of when I saw the title, so I see we're on the same page, ha.
Interestingly, I recently discovered the DuckTales Moon theme starts out with several measures of 15/8; it's funny how much your brain'll try to squeeze odd structure into a more regular form if it's _almost_ correct.
I se I have a fellow of the 64 here
Marx’s theme was the first thing I thought when I saw this video. Of all the song I know how to play that one is the one I’m most proud of because of how much work it is to wrap your head around what the fuck is going on with it
marx’s theme and strong one were the exact same things i thought of?
YES. That, and a few other popular game themes, whenever I hum them I'm technically getting them a bit wrong by squeezing the rhythm out to something more regular.
@@chimericalical Glad to see a bunch of people gravitate immediately to Marx's theme. If you try to physically conduct that song, and the only way it makes sense is if the time signature changes every 2 or 3 bars, so I always suspected that it shifted often.
'Leavetaking' gave me chills. First time I've ever heard it. I distinctly remember falling in love the Hollow Bastion and Ganondorf's theme. Some of my first obsessions with non-standard time!
I know I'm super late to reply this but if you never did pick up Ni No Kuni 2 (The game Leavetaking is from) it's very very much so worth it and a fun game full of beautiful scenes and great music.
@@MajrokiReGilded if you care to know, Ni No Kuni 3 is in developement.
can't wait to hear Joe Hisaishi's compositions for it.
You’re a percussionist. I’m a percussionist. We are kin. We are one. WE ARE ONE.
I really want to know what you would say about the mine level from the PC version of Pitfall the Mayan Adventure. I think it goes 6/8 for two measures and then 8/8
My brother who plays bass made a possibly new time signature of 17/12 so that is why bassists should never ever write music
@@tuttiman55
I'm sorry
HE WHAT
Is 17/12 an already existing time signature or did my brother make it
@@tuttiman55 Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't 17/12 just 17 triplets? Like how a measure of 6/20 would be 6 quintuplets?
@@fudgenugget3925 I’m not sure because I’m only in third year of high school and I don’t know that much
0:55 Song in the backround: The Dance of Eternity
@@real_PaulAllen HELL YEAH
DREAM THEATER
Was scrolling down looking for this comment
Imagine not knowing that
It's the official final boss theme for drummers
What is it with Japanese game composers being musical geniuses?! I love that!
I don't even think it's that they're geniuses, moreso that often they have no formal musical training, and/or are more willing and even likely to break the traditional rules of musical composition as a result. A lot of the people we consider legends all grew up in the 70s and were heavily influenced by American Jazz/Funk, and British Prog Rock, genres well known for breaking traditional music composition rules.
@@knightshousegames too bad modern mainstream music aren't all like that
Its because they're good at maths xD
Well they're ASIAN lol
Tim Follin and Chris Huelsbeck say hi
God, I love the Barrier Trio theme. That call and response between the Timpani and literally the rest of the instruments always stuck out in my mind.
7:30 The Mars Volta! Very nice!
Honestly, 8-bit, you're the first one to actually help me GET time signature. Your videos really help me get to a point where I can understand these musical tools so much better. Thank you so much!
I remember a song we played in school band (I can't remember the name, it was something non-English) which, similar to Marx's Theme, seemed to change at random between 3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, and 7/4, as well as rapidly changing tempo up and down. It was also seven pages long. It was an absolute bitch to learn, but _so_ much fun to play.
WARNING: Long rant incoming (TL;DR at the end)
Percussion is actually one of the most difficult "instruments" to play. I put "instruments" in quotes because percussionists often have to play a HUGE variety of different percussive instruments, sometimes having to switch between instruments multiple times in the middle of a piece. Think of the amount of effort and dedication required to master one instrument such as the clarinet or the guitar, and imagine having to do that for multiple instruments.
Even something as seemingly "easy" as the tambourine can actually be taken to a whole new level with enough practice, separating great percussionists from mediocre ones. Instruments such as the marimba, vibraphone, and xylophone require an incredible amount of precision and dexterity, and the timpani require a good ear for pitch and a solid understanding of music theory.
As a percussionist, I've had times where I had to play a segment on chimes, then walk to the glockenspiel and play a few measures, then move to the gong to finish out a piece, all while keeping track of what measure we were on so as not to get lost. It can be stressful.
Granted, I would assume that you are most likely in high school, where band directors often chose pieces that are not exceedingly difficult for percussion, and many percussionists in high school are not experienced or passionate enough to master their craft, so I can understand where you're coming from.
TL;DR: Percussion gets a lot of flak for being "simple" or "easy", but it is a surprisingly difficult and nuanced section of the ensemble. Many wind players who may be excellent at their own single instrument would still struggle with percussion if they were to try it.
Lvl62paladin omg thank you finally someone understands
@@Lvl62paladin And the percussion section holds the whole rest of the band/orchestra/group together!
Lvl62paladin I’m a percussionist for my high school and my band director was on the Carolina Crown 2005 snare line, he makes sure we have plenty of parts for our pieces, we even have our own percussion ensemble lol
@@Lvl62paladin You have a point, there is definitely more nuance to percussion than people think. But don't pretend an instrument like the tambourine is NEARLY as difficult to master on its own as say the piano or a full drumset
I was hoping you'd mention Hollow Bastion or Night of Fate!
Love your stuff!
5/4 time FTW
and Here We Are from undertale
Night of Fate from what game?
duddude321 Kingdom Hearts... it’s also in 5, and is also incredible. I prefer it to Hollow Bastion, but to each their own 🤷🏻♂️
5/4 clave can also be found in my favorite Donkey Kong track, Gear Getaway. It uses that “split up” feel to then modulate smoothly into a running 4/4, making it tough to keep the feel on the music for too long, which makes it so you can’t follow the music with the rather simple, almost rhythm esque gameplay of practically flappy bird.
The composers writing the piece: "Screw it" *pulls up random number generator*
I nearly fainted when I saw that 23/16 time signature.
I've learned how to conduct that exact theme. It's not as hard as one would think. It's just a subdivision of 4/4 and 3/4 patterns alternating at half the speed. So it's not terrible, but seeing it on a piece of paper is definitely terrifying.
Then you'd boutta have a seizure when you find out about 71907/40120
@@starawesom you gotta be yanking my chain. The craziest I’ve ever done 12/4 time (I might be wrong though)
@@honeybee1256 I kid you not
So as he said, mother 3's battle system revolves around attacking to the beat of the music, and as the game goes on, so do the "heartbeat" combos, as they're called
so in the aforementioned "strong one" in this video, there is a harder version of it for the masked man (one of the main antagonists) that cuts off half a beat at the end of the measure
so then you would go to 29/16 time, which is already very crazy, but here's the thing- they don't cut out exactly one-half of a beat, instead cutting little more than a half
so then you have to get to a valid time signature which does not occur until 71907/40120
basically the point of it is that the masked man is a cyborg so he does not have a normal heartbeat
I had no idea the Ocarina of Time Ganon fight music was so complex...
Quite the thing. Mostly it just sounds frantic and a little chaotic... xD
Chaotic means complex most of the time.
Reminds me a bit of LttP final boss (probably intentional)
it explains why I would randomly miss batting back the spark, I was trying to keep time!
I definitely didn't just screw up >.>'
Odd time signatures can easily create that chaotic feel.
5/4 clave is in the last air bender pretty often
It lead me to think there might be a cultural tendency to it... I mean, Western classical music is generally identified by 4/4 2/4 time signatures for non-western listeners like us.
My country's folk music generally has different 9/8, 5/8 time signatures. (I know these signatures are used in Western music too, but not almost all the time) Maybe Asian traditional music has a similar quirk.
It's also everywhere in JRPG battle themes, along with its cousin, 7/8. (5/4 is 3-3-2-2 grouping, while 7/8 is 3-2-2 grouping.)
By far my favorite instance of odd time signatures in video games is "Oh No! WASPS!!" from Bug Fables. it opens alternating between 11/8 and 12/8 and then goes to 3 bars of 7/8, 1 of 8/8, 3 of 7/8, 1 of 8/8, then does 11/8, 12/8, 11/8, 9/8, then goes back to alternating between 11/8 and 12/8 before a section in 4/4. The song's erratic nature doesn't just throw off the player, it sends you into a full on panic as you try to figure out how to deal with the unexpected threat in front of you
SO THATS WHY THAT BOSS FIGHT IS SO FREAKING HARD IN MOTHER. I saw so many people fail on the beat.
Well, the boss is just very powerful attack and defense wise as well.
First thing that came to mind the moment I saw the notification on my phone:
“Did he just make a video about my boy *Maaaaaarx?”*
And, indeed
adam or not?
Next thing you know, he might do something similar to either Bowser, the Hive Mind, or Morpho Knight.
Karl Maaaaaarx
*Hartmann’s Youkai Girl and Seraphic Chicken intensifies*
Some pieces with odd time signatures that spoke to me:
· "Hyrule Castle" from Breath of the Wild: Mostly in 5/4, but sprinkles in 6/4 measures for added effect. Also, the section that plays the series callback (either LoZ1's "Overworld" or OoT's "Zelda's Lullaby" depending on where you are on the premises) is entirely in 6/4
· "Winning Results" from Mario Kart 64: Constant 11/8. It makes for a challenging but cool jazz piece. Also used in Mario Kart 7, but rearranged into 4/4 for Mario Kart Tour
· "Super Battleworn Insomniac" from Rhythm Doctor: Starts in 4/4, but switches to 7/8 partway through. The Day version, "Battleworn Insomniac", is a straightforward 4/4, press on beat 4, but the Night version not only is faster and more "corrupted" but also, after a bit, chops an 8th note off the end of every measure!
Glad to know everyone else had the exact same thought. It doesn't get more odd than the masked man version of strong one from mother 3.
Marche 71907/40120. That is all.
You'll forgive your hasty time signature, won't you?
A lot of uses of odd time signatures in video games are just to illustrate how bizarre or chaotic a particular situation is compared to other parts of game. It is very rare for the main theme of a game or series of games to use an odd time signature
But the main theme/leitmotif of the Touhou series, "Theme of Eastern Story", is written in 11/4. Structurally t's basically 6/8 + 6/8 + 6/8 + 2/4. It can sound surprisingly normal if you aren't paying attention, probably because it isn't too far off from the 123 123 123 123 1234 pattern that shows up occasionally in 4/4 music. Theme of Eastern Story just adds an extra 123 123
But why use an odd time signature? Maybe ZUN decided to just try and use a unique pattern to stand out a bit. Or maybe he deliberately chose to use an odd time signature to show just how weird and nonsensical the entire land of Gensokyo is
Hyper7 huh, I never realised that.
I have a whole new appreciation for ‘Theme of Eastern Story’.
Sagat's theme from Street Fighter II plays in a 11/8 time signature.
Video Title: "Odd Time Signatures"
First Minute: Dance of Eternity
i'm kind of surprised you've never discussed the touhou series on here before, given it's a series that has been defined by its music forever & has been influential as such. it's fulla weird time signatures, too... good ol 11/4 and alternating 7/4 and 4/4.
The first think that came to mind for me with the '5/4 clave' rhythm is the staff roll from Hopeless Masquerade.
Yea you can really tell a track's by Zun even if it's using a different instrument set (even without the horns). It's got a very distinct just feeling to it. Something you can't really unhear once you pick up on it.
Yeah! I was surprised not to see Raiko's theme here as I absolutely love how it plays with drums. There are also th12 and 13 stage 6 themes, I would have loved to hear his thoughts about these, maybe in a dedicated video, one day!
As soon as I saw the title I immediately thought of Hartmann’s Youkai Girl.
Seriously, what time signature is that?
@@Gamesmarts194 P.sure it starts with 15/16, then goes to 7/8, 4/4, 7/8, 4/4, and then it loops.
PLEASE do another video on this topic. I love hearing about weird time signatures.
Maybe you could even revisit the Strong Ones theme and how there is a version in 29/16.
The link to the dancing mad video and the "dance of eternity" timeshifts as counted by portnoy were very fitting.
5/4 is my favorite time signature. Ever since I played Take Five in the high school orchestra
Honestly, I think VGM has a tendency to NOT be 4/4 time signatures far more often than other genres of music.
Japanese video game composers yes, but it's not all that common in western video games. All 8-bit Music Theory's examples here were from Japanese composers, and most of them from RPGs (old Japanese platform, arcade and shooter games had plenty of odd signatures too, just listen to Bionic Commando, or even level 2 in Super Mario Bros!).
Finding them in western video game music from that time is much rarer. Modern western games do have some (for instance Minecraft, as Aiden pointed out).
Idk if rhythm game music counts as game music but ICE's song "Pandora's Box" from Deemo has a lot of parts in 11/8. It's really fun to listen to once you get used to it.
@@Choinkus Wally Breben's music for the Commodore 64 version of Tetris, a 25-minute electronic epic, has a long 5/4 (or 3 3 2 2) section in the middle. I really recommend it if someone wants to hear great music that's not from Japan ;)
@@Mnnvint Minecraft and Undertale come to mind. But yeah, not many examples.
Math rock, prog rock, avant jazz? Unless we ain't counting those lol
What about the alternate version of Strong One that goes
*71907/40120*
???
@@calebrobinson3144 Strong One (Masked Man). Look it up.
@V.T. Proto Yes, it's the *NOPE* Time Signature.
The f*** time signature.
It's still 15/8, they just switch up the tempo every few beats
I would've loved if you included the Soundtrack "An Endless Desert" of the beautiful mobile game *Alto's Odyssey* as well, since it's written in 7/4, which, interestingly enough, feels somehow completely natural :D
This is so cool! I really appreciate your editing, highlighting, and explanations of the specificity and effect the music provides. I literally stop the video to really get all your notes, it’s so interesting! Great video awesome job!! (I’m a new subscriber!!)
Lost kingdom theme from super Mario Odyssey. It’s in 11/4
Hinox theme and part of Vah Rudania theme are 5/4
@@peters9889
i came here only to find anything relating to botw
And it's influenced heavily by gamelan, a music genre predominantly found in Indonesia :)
it is? huh
11/16
5:58 Ah yes, I remember that moment when you fight Llyod of the Black Fang with Joshua the prince of Johanna while they both wield the sacred weapon of the Kingdom Johanna. It was my favorite moment of Fire Emblem the Blazing Stones.
Nah, but this video was really interesting. It's really creative how these time signatures are utilized for different atmospheres. I especially love the analysis of Marx's theme, as it really shows how much the song fits the character.
Do you know what rom hack this is?
No, I don't, sorry. I've seen footage of it plenty of times before, but I've never known the name for it.
This comment is the best comment.
Sacred stones is arguably the best FE in the gameboy era
That was made just for the UA-cam video, if I remember. It's just what you see in the video (called Jehanna VS Black Fang Fire Emblem).
Edit: by the UA-cam channel Marlon&Louis Fire Emblem Hacks
I’ve been watching your channel for a while now, and it was a great surprise to find out that we have a bunch of the same influences! Mike Portnoy, DT, Mars Volta, Thomas Pridgen... Every reference you put in this video is a huge inspiration for me! Also cool to know that you are a drummer, rock on, love this channel and video game music. Planning on recording some drum covers over my favorite VG songs, a lot inspired by this channel as well. 🤘
A weird time signature in a factory level theme, that is actually really clever.
I got a good laugh when the dream theater clip came up. That song is just mind bending. I love odd time signatures because they really promote nonstandard thinking in terms of how to write for them. Whether it's the trick of adding/removing a beat from a repeated figure or something else, you cant really approach an odd signature the way you approach a standard one.
Which song is it?
Dance of eternity by dream theater
Dance of Eternity. The video is here on youtube too where Mike Portnoy goes over the time changes through the song ua-cam.com/video/FwkcRTNMsWs/v-deo.html
"Whether it's the trick of adding/removing a beat from a repeated figure or something else, you cant really approach an odd signature the way you approach a standard one."
Only if you're trying to be deliberately obtuse. My usual approach is to make those "weird" rhythms feel every bit as normal and intuitive as possible, so that the listener doesn't even realise there's something different going on.
Also, Dance of Eternity is the typical case of a song that has "weird" rhythms and *nothing else* going on.
@@FernieCanto I've certainly heard many cases of odd signatures sounding like standard ones, but what I was getting at is that you can't just slap a 4/4 rhythm in an odd signature and expect it to work. You need to find rhythmic structures that work within that signature. Even if they feel natural, they will not generally be the kind of thing you're likely to see in a more standard signature if you examine it closely.
_Sees video_
_knows it will have Mother 3_
I haven't even played mother 3 (been meaning to) and I know it has some weird tine signatures, like the masked man's theme.
Mother 3 is a great game, if you can play it, I highly suggest you do.
@@cq_the_kid I have an English-patched rom, I've just got to get to it, I've been wanting to!
A few more examples of odd time signatures / mixed meter from Mother 3 can be found here danbruno.net/writing/mother3/
"Boring old 4/4 time and it's stuck up cousin 3/4"
Compound meter: *Am I a joke to you?*
Me with no knowledge of sheet music...
You also get some weird time signatures in some shows soundtracks. In the show Over the Garden Wall there is a track called More Bones to Sort and it’s really weird and kind of hard to figure out
7:31 I love how when you mentioned Prog Rock, you included footage from a Mars Volta concert. My favorite band and one of the most underrated, Instant like.
When I think of weird time sigs, I think of Golden Sun! Saturos's battle theme starts as 6/8, but randomly switches into 5/8 for this really cool and disorienting bridge!
The final boss theme of Lost Age is similar, starting at 5/8 and then shifting to 3/4 after the intro!
Yeah, Golden Sun probably has the proggiest video game soundtrack in terms of rhythm.
In addition to those tracks, there’s also the final boss from the first game, the fusion dragon music, which begins with bars of 4/4, 7/8, then 9/8 before returning to 4/4.
Then at 0:31, the drum pattern plays 16th notes in the order of kick, hi-hat, hi-hat, snare. The snare is very disorientating at a fast tempo (coming on the “a” as in 1 e + a), especially considering the kick is barely audible, and the section is preceded with a random 7/8 bar with no crash cymbal to signal the start of the section!
Then at 1:08, there’s a section in 6/8 with accents on the 6th beat of the bar, but the bass guitar part that fills in the rest of the bar plays a rhythm that tricks the listener into thinking the accent is on the first beat of the bar. This results in the next section sounding like it comes out of nowhere, or a 1/8 bar into the new section if you will, but really it’s just 6/8.
Man I love Golden Sun
Who Am I? from FF7 is in 6/8 but has a 5/8 bar every four bars.
I was hoping someone should mention Golden Sun! Shoutout to the Doom Dragon theme, shifting mainly between 5/8 & 6/8 but generally in an unexpected way. Of course, the richness of that soundtrack stretches well beyond the liberal use of time signature changes..
I am so incredibly happy I've found you! Maybe you're finally a UA-cam channel I can watch with my husband since he loves Games and I love Music Theory! Yaaaay! Also, the music you picked is absolutely phenomenal, I had no idea that these pieces exist!
I hope everyone can appreciate the amount of time and talent it took to research, transcribe, script, perform, and edit this video. I could barely understanding this much less teach it.
Yoko Shimomura was very prevalent in this video.
She’s brilliant. Should have given her a nod and a picture in this video.
Because she's an amazing composer.
Hadn't heard of her before, something to look for (is she a also known outside of game music?). But Joe Hisaishi was also in there.
Yoko Shimomura = Dream Theater of video game music.
Not nearly enough, IMO ;D
It's not a video game piece, but the song "A headache and a sixty-fourth" features mostly 4/4 time signature but has a 1/64 bar every once in a while that always keeps the listener on their feet
I have learned more about music in this video than I ever have in my 5 years in band. Thank you very much!
One of my favorite things was when I wad struggling to play a piece from Halo and I realized that it was really in 11/4 split into a 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2 1-2 1 pattern. Super cool to listen to and to play and it really makes that gung-ho space marines feel with those hammering beats at the end of each measure.
8-bit Music Theory, my man! I was waiting for this video. Being the leader of a post-rock/math-rock band, my heart beats in 23/16. So glad to see odd time signatures get some love.
But though they're often used to confound the listener, I would love to see some more examples of strong melodies with odd time signatures. In my view, they show the real mastery of the composer. Anyone can baffle the audience with a random time signature generator music, but few can make it sound melodic.
One tune i love is "Subterranean Hell" from Castlevania: Dawn of Sorrow. It's 5/8 for the most part with a 7/8 opening and sections in 6/8.
Hyrule castle theme in breath of the wild is in 5 4 and 6 4 alternating 3:1 every 4 bars
He talked about it some time ago :)
The Hinox battle theme is also 5/4!
How about Lost Woods? Im not sure what the time signature is but I know its probably nuts.
Okra-rina of time? I'll take mine fried.
Had me rollin'
This is one of my favorite videos from this channel. I watch it basically once a month and it just never gets old.